Pro audio amps and Crown Drivecore amps in particular have gained a legitimate foothold in the home audio world and no doubt Crown is enjoying every penny of it. Crown has the design/engineering ability to capitalize on this relatively new revenue stream and I am looking forwards to seeing this happen. The Crown Class D amps are only going to get better. I am using a Crown XLS 2502 to drive four 10" subs in a pair of sealed cabinets for home theater. The headroom in this setup, the shear ability to cleanly go beyond what I'll ever need is fantastic.
Also, remember that audiophile amps sales don't come near the volume of market of Crown or Behringer. So they must take a higher mark-up to make profit. Price don't always dictate quality in the audio world.
I totally agree. I was kind of afraid to buy the Crown XLS. due to many people who have purchased it but did not configure it correctly. it takes a bit of know-how to use it properly. It definitely makes a great subwoofer amp. I bought XLS 1002 as an experiment on DIY subwoofers. I'm driving four 10-inch subs in bridge mode at 4 ohms. sounds awesome. but to get to work right with an HT receiver you need a converter box to go from an unbalanced to a balanced connection with a slight preamp. I used the Art Cleanbox Pro. which changed the entire sound.
If you are using to pro amp to drive vintage speakers or sub woofers, there are pro amps that have RCA inputs, like the Crown XLi series (XLi3500). You are not stuck with XLP connections, so you do not have to use a converter like an Art Cleanbox Pro unless you want to. The XLR cable's primary advantage is the can be ran for long distances without picking up any noise. When you are only dealing with two amps sitting next to each other, a set of short high quality RCA cables work just as well.
We did a blind listening test a while back - all amps calibrated to the same reference output. The amp that came out on top (to our own surprise) was a fairly modestly price class AB pro studio amplifier - ART SLA1. The second was a class A audiophile amplifier, third was a Crown XLS amp and then below that a mid-fi amp (older Adcom). So always go by listening blind if possible.
What equipment was the test using? If the speakers are very sensitive, like some of Magnepan's speakers, the difference is very noticeable, especially in the higher frequencies. Using a Crown for the woofers and a more delicate amp for the top end is the best of both worlds. However, as I said, it depends on the speakers you use. It's the same as with everything else; if you connect a UHD Blu-ray player to an old CRT, it will still look like crap. I dragged my Crown XLS 2502 to a store and played it on the Magnepan 20.7 (just for fun since I know the owner), and the store owner cried due to the background noise and how the Crown handled the top end. It sounded hollow, like you ripped the soul out of the music.
This subject keeps popping up. I find it interesting because so much of the recorded music we listen to was actually mastered using “pro” equipment. Makes your head spin, doesn’t it.
Yup its a bit of a paradox. Sort of liek the fact that a great sounding setup can actually sound better than a live performance in theory lol. Much more to sound than meets the eye...
@@doronor6552 good pro amps sound fantastic because of science. Good audiophile amps sound great because of religion. Audio industry professionals are usually guided by the science of good sound, and thus use high-quality and great sounding pro-audio gear.
Hello just wanted to add that pro audio amplifiers are not used in the process of recording and mixing records. Nothing you hear goes through them. They may be used for monitoring in the studio but these amps just need to measure flat which virtually all amps do. It makes a lot of sense that pro amps would not sound as refined or as good as hi fi ones.
I have owned a few high end power amps, parasound, atc, bryston etc Non of them sound as good as my crown xls 2002 amp. This is my personal experience. Every amp has some trade off qualities as nothing is perfect. With the crown I can hear so much more clearly the sound of my front end, source, Dac. The crown doesnt add or take away anything. From my experience It is all about synergy and less about choosing specific components.
Yes old school crown may have been not the top. But current Gen is killing it. Specifically XLS series. That is crazy. Transparent almost Neutral and More than Decent Noise Floor at Low Gain settings. Trust me Low Gain is all you need for 95% of speakers.
I suppose you might have forgiving, soft and warm sounding speakers, possible 4 ohm ones that other amps just could not drive. Great neutral speakers reveal the weeknesses of a Crown XLS in a second of listening. Great to impress someone with clarity (so as you mention), great soundstage, fast bass, but.. the sound is just dry, to my taste. And I tried it with a great sounding tube preamp too - did not help much. All the instruments sound clear but are small, there is no meat and body to the music, and, worst of all, the listening gets fatigueing very quickly, like within minutes. But! (another but).. Take a class AB professional PA amp, those weighing some 30 kilos (60 pounds), and they can truly sound gorgeous, if combined with a great preamp and great speakers, of course. Cheers, and hope this helped anyone with their decision.
@@monkeypunkerthanks to put in words this feelings that many have doubts about. on the other hand, some of us ara wanting fast everything and not a real drummer playing on our room. sound with pressure tends to be more controlled, more able to handle the human x machine factor. if you want to dance, the audiophile amp will show the failure of the drummer, the lack of velocity of the bass amplifier, the bad mastering, the bad mixing, etc. How about music being mastered on pro audio instead of audiophile discussion?
Every time I am watching one of your interesting and helpful videos I am enjoying the finale credits. It feels like the golden 80s. Thank you for your videos! Greetings from Germany
Fair enough, sorta. I have a system made of pro speaker drivers, pro amps and preamp, acoustics by me (speaker design and build and room acoustics), the goal was to get a sound I like more than that of audiophile gear (that over smooths and sweetens the crap out of stuff until only 5% of recordings sound good with it) if possible, to get greater dynamics and musicality. I did this experiment on a low budget, $1500 for amps and speakers (not including preamp). Doing this project I learned a ton. One major thing I learned is that if you treat pro gear like it’s hiring gear... proper cables and power cords, great speaker acoustic design, room acoustics, resonance and vibration elimination, the works, and if you do it well... you’ll be blown away how good low priced but reputable pro gear can be. I can back from capital audiofess a few years ago, long before this rig was decent or sorted, and doing a direct comparison to the insanely priced gift gear... I was more than pleased with my frankinbuild. The system is fully sorted now and is the single most musical setup I can recall listening to. It is very transparent and totally honest, it plays what you feed it and does not embellish or artificially sweeten. About 99% of what I’ve played through it sounds great, take crappy old recordings, it presents them in a way that does not shin an artificially harsh light on the recording but does let you hear what they people who made it heard, as in you can easily identify with the good music in the antique recording and not be dragged down by the blemishes. Play something modern and super well recorded and it lets all of that through in fine style. It played effortlessly to over 110 db all day long if you could stand that, plays quietly nicely. All around addictive stuff. I have high with bowers and Wilkins speakers and it took me 14 years and massive acoustics treatments and just insane and expensive effort to make that setup sound -not completely shitty as in the worst most frustrating system ever- I mean, sure, after 4.5 years of extensive acoustics studies and endless experiments and such it now sounds very good in most aspects, it’s musical and sweet and etc. and if I go In my workshop/art studio and turn on the pro rig... after one track I pretty much forget about the b&w system. So for sure there are a few points of the hifi sound that are nice, but for me that is not actually necessarily indicative of what I think is most important in sound. And I’ll guarantee you there is pro gear that is top of the heap regardless of classification. The key is for one to dig deep inside and identify what really floats your boat with sound and make that system. If you like smoothed out sanitized sound, go for crap hifi, if you like less,flavored go for a 599k$ hifi... but there are those of us who want something else, something properly used pro gear can deliver. My 2¢
I agree, I have an RME dac, feeding a Crown XLi2500 amp. I've messed around with several speakers and the dac/amp combo is very transparent and neutral. I really love it with blues. I've always used receivers in the past and the always color the sound. I bought the dac to get the cleanest sound I could, the XLi2500 is AB and as far as my ears can tell ads nothing to the sound but the power my big speakers need. My measuring equipment is my ears and I love the sound (or lack of sound) from my pro gear. My dac is the RME ADI 2 Fs, so technically it isn't the pro version. They just took out some unneeded features in the Hi Fi model.
@@stanislasflipo7214 in this system I use a drivecore crown amp for the 18” woofers and class a/b crown amp for the mains. Not the best amps in the world… actually at the low end of the (decent) pro audio world… so… I really don’t have a vast experience with different amps, so no way I can recommend them on any level. Your better off talking to people with the right experience. Cheers.
My experience with pro gear has been a hit and miss game with pro speakers and amps in the latter over the years. On the other hand I purchased a Tascam cd-rw900sl pro cd player and recorder a few years ago. Overall it sounds pretty good and its operating features are like the reel to reel I used to own decades ago. It is not as refined as my classic Pioneer Pd 65 or my current Rotel cd14 mk2. It also doesn't have the weight of the other aforementioned units but it is a very sturdy, rigid, and good sounding cd player. This cd player/recorder is superior to those players I had in the 80's and early 90's and will last for many years!
Despite the slight to marginal audio difference, it is mostly a cost factor. Most pro amps are built in huge numbers which drives the cost down and hence tons of them get sold. Audiophile amps are built in low numbers a likely by hand, this raises the cost plus add in exoteric parts and a sky high profit margin to help keep said company afloat and you get an expensive amp that only sounds 5 to 10% better at best (versus a good pro amp, not a cheap one). Sound is of course subjective, so if you base sound purely on specifications, most amplifiers perform well. What makes a good amplifier sound better, first its reactance to the load it is driving, its slew rate, IMD, dampening factor and power reserves (dynamic headroom). Bi-polar, MOS-FET, push-pull, darlington, cascaded pairs, whatever, they all have a sound but like a microphone preamp they contribute only a small amount to the sound. Class A, A/B, D, etc. also have become blurred as each technology has almost achieved the pinnacle of its design. Your speakers matter more for sound (and your room) than anything else, bar none. Replace the amplifier with 2 other good designs and the change in sound is barely noticeable, I would blind test anyone on this. Do not talk about interconnects, speaker cables, IOS-pucks, power conditioners (although a balanced transformer is a good thing) or even the source as major contributors, they are not
People want to be unique (most of them except commies). When anybody can compare "reactance to the load it is driving, its slew rate, IMD, dampening factor and power reserves" (100% true selection of parameters, with my respect) objectively, no room for "hidden knowledge" remains. When a salesman (or a "reviewer") tells about a woodoo in Audiophilish, everyone supposes that only he/she translates this correct, and this makes him/her unique. But sometimes, craftmen crack a problem, and there is no any pro product that can offer the same. Like Van der Hul's or ZYX cartridges for example =) After that they can sell any pro stuff for a high price, signed. I think this is a history of most of pro companies.
As a Sound Engineer in the commercial audio space I can agree that most Crown amps do sound different and weird, but that doesn't mean that they are commercial audio standards for the whole industry. The Crown XLS is Crown's most basic and lowest quality amplifier they sell with a price point from $340 to $650 Crown has other amplifiers like the Crown XTi 2 Series, Crown I-Tech HD Series and Macro-Tech i Series these amplifiers are worlds apart and sound excellent can go from $650 to $10,000. Crown makes amplifiers at different price points. Price doesn't always translate to quality in hi-fi and pro audio/commercial alike. At the end, it’s still audio technology with different applications. Let’s be real, Crown isn't the only one manufacturer there is. There are other amplifier manufacturers that sound more pleasing and natural/neutral sounding than Crown. Like QSC, Powersoft, Lab Greppen, L acoustics, Crest Audio, MC2 Audio, Dynacord, Peavey, EV, etc. I had heard misinformation that Commercial Audio amplifiers do not have the same level of circuitry components in Home HI-FI amplifiers which is not true and pretty far from it. Commercial Audio and Hi-Fi are just marketing terms, because Commercial audio is also Hi-Fi or High fidelity (often shortened to hi-fi or hifi) is a term used by listeners, audiophiles, and home audio enthusiasts to refer to high-quality reproduction of sound. Ideally, high-fidelity equipment has inaudible noise and distortion, and a flat (neutral, uncolored) frequency response within the human hearing range. Commercial Audio equipment can also do this too. Now speakers are for another topic, but to keep it short Commercial Audio does have amazing speakers for sound reproduction.
Sound engineers sometimes really do know exceptional sound. It kept Tim De Pavaracini in enough cash to keep a very high end audio company going. Some recordings are crap becsuse of it and we do have evidence. One thing about recording. You will be long remembered by the evidence you leave.
To JPH! You are very correct with MC2 Built in Devon(Honiton I think or were) Though Paul is a very knowledgeable guy he can't possibly know the internals of so many amps. Back in the late 90s chameleon of formerly Hill audio sounded cracking...tended to overheat though(1unit) high Of A\B design
@@ssgeek4515 MC2, beautiful amplifiers. I'm pretty sure Ohm amplifiers are actually made by MC2; just a different faceplate. As Plasa a few years ago I ended up listening to MC2 running Ohm speakers, and it sounded glorious.
Back in the 70s-80s, Crown produced the Crown DC300 power amp. It was offered as a high end audio power amp as well as a pro-amp for musicians. Neil Diamond had stacks of them at his concerts. One feature of the amp was that it could drive a 70.7 volt distribution line directly.
The 300a was laboratory dc power amp not a Audio amp at the factory school taught to me that made a point o This only two of they units were built lab instrument standards the other was the M600 I serviced all of there lines and most I didn’t think were real hifi but the reference was all were well built to a Given purpose
Hey Paul you are right on one point. The final test is how it "sounds" to an educated ear...a music lover. As someone who has been an audiophile for a half century and a musician. I would put my humble Douk P1 going into a Behringer A500 Reference Amp driving upgraded Kipsch Belles with Klipsh subs and put it up against anything I have heard in the "upscale" listening rooms.....and I have. Do not dismiss the "damn I just spent $100K so I must have the best" reflex in human psychology.
Pro amps (if quiet) are perfect for horn speakers, as they are like pro speakers - a good match. Imaging is not paramount with high efficiency horn speakers - they are very “forward” In their presentation and not subtle at all. The real test would come with something low efficiency with great definition and transparency like Magnepans or Totems, where imaging and tone is everything.
Class A amps sound better to me and that is the only topology i choose to own (Luxman and some Chifi Class A amps). Paul has various excuses to sell his high profit margin class D crap. In spite of his bragging, the stuff he sells sounds no better than pro amps. But, he has positioned himself to cater to the crowd that prides itself on audiophool brand name snobbery. That's all that matters to sell things, i suppose. PS audio crap amps can't even remotely stand up to the Luxman, Jungson, Shengya, etc in build quality and sound quality. That is just the way it is and the way it always will be.
Paul, im going to respectfully disagree with your comment on putting a Crown in an Audiophile room... well i just did... Mine... coincidentally you put out this topic... i ordered an XLS2002 from Amazon just for -hits and giggles... to compare vs my MC602 and Emotiva XPA DR2... I have been AB testing for 3 days straight... Every time my ears go to the Crown... thats all i have to say with that... I have much respect for Paul and PS audio, however i really believe your team should benchmark the XLS Drivecore2 series, disect it for what its worth and understand why people are loving this amp for the money... aside from anesthetics, its sound quality blows amps 10x its price out of the water.....
This has been my experience also. Xls2002 is an amazing amp. It is the only component in my system that I wont change. I use mine with a tube pre and its awesome. It just goes to show how much BS is out there in this industry. Another example. Over the last year I have been on the hunt for the perfect Dac under £1k. I owned a chord 2qute and was very happy with it but was curious to see what else was out there, So I bought a qutest. The sound was too soft, rolled off top end, it was like someone had cut off the balls off my dac. I gave up on the qutest and bought a RMe adi2, it was a good all rounder but had no magic. For a laugh I bought back the 2qute and A/B against the RME. The 2qute is amazing, it sounds like ‘real’ music. The adi2 is good but sounds like equipment / Dac. Im keeping the 2qute lol I would have saved a lot of money if I didnt pay attention to these fake reviews. how can an old version sound better than the new version. In my system and with my ears, it does. Over the last few years reviewers have forgotten about the 2qute it gets no mention, its as if the 2qute isnt worthy anymore. However the qutest and rmeadi2 are the best thing since sliced bread. In my opinion they are not. Im not going down this rabbit whole again. 🤨
Nothing to be ashamed about. The masses prefer McDonalds. They didn't get to be the biggest restaurant chain in the world by making low quality, cheap food.
hearing is beleaving, i just bought an XLS2002 for fun thinking i was going to return it... but after comparing to my MC602 and XPA DR2... im keeping it... it blows my mind how good the Crown sounds... and at 11lbs its 10% the weight of my other two amps... audio snobs need to get their heads out of their asses and try the Crown XlS... its getting positive reviews from audiophiles on the net
I’ve got a crown xls2502 powering some subs and two PS Audio m700 monoblocks powering my magnepan 3.7i’s. For fun I swapped power to my mains and did direct a/b comparison. The M700’s definitely sounded better in all cases, but no it was not night/day difference.
@@SantanKGhey1234 that’s hard to answer because everyone is going to have different equations in comparing value for money. For me the difference was worth it and I love the sound of the m700’s or I would’ve sold them. For someone just starting out with a limited budget the calculation would be different I think. It is possible to build a musically satisfying system without spending a ton of money, that’s for sure.
@@MattWong117 if I'm reading that right, you've got a single xls2502 comparing against two m700 monoblocks? Do yourself a favor and get a second xls2502 and then do an a/b comparison. Mono vs mono. The crowns have poor crosstalk performance. Using them in a mono configuration might be that difference you're missing. I, myself, have the 1502s for biamping my speakers and i absolutely love them.
I have used Class A, Class A/B, Class D amps. I have used Luxman, Marantz, Cambridge, Denon, Sony ES, Dynaco, Toshiba, Crown Amplifiers. My go to amp now is a Crown XLS Class D amplifier. I still have other amps, but nothing sounds any better to me. I started using it to drive my Martin Logan Sequel ll speakers four years ago. Very happy.
Hmm Paul. I love your series. This is the first one that made me cringe :-) But it’s ok - this was shot too close to your heart. I think this question deserves a double take with some serious thinking. One thing I’d love to hear you explain is - how come we are always chasing that live show experience with our hifi equipment - and what we are trying to recreate is the sound coming from these pro gear.
Before I can discuss my feelings about “Professional “ amplification I need to go back in time to explain my evolution through Audio. Back at one of the earliest Audio Shows(about 28 years ago)in Los Angeles where Krell and Apogee were paired together; I had yet to actually enter the Building but could hear and feel what I could only describe as a seismic subterranean bass event like nothing I had ever experienced before! Upon entering the building I followed the sound and energy to the room where I beheld the Krell amplifiers in all of their glory, and flanked on either side was the mighty Apogee Scintilla speakers. Now what was surreal was the fact that I was hearing and feeling the music clearly in the distant parking lot, but as I stood in front of these speakers it was if the sound was emanating from them but I put my ears up to them and it wasn’t loud. How could this be? Anyway, it was at that moment I decided that I could never afford the likes of this level of Audio gear. But I took a mental picture and decided that this was the best I had ever heard music being reproduced. Committed myself to somehow achieve this level of sound in my own home one day. After not 10 or 20 years, but nearly 30 years! Trying different amplifiers, pre-amplifiers, speakers, sources etc… I evolved my system into something that is more than I could ever imagine. No, I don’t have any High End Audio gear that one would assume is required to achieve such sonic bliss. What I did do is go outside the “proverbial “ box to create my own version of being “Surrounded by sound “. No I don’t use a Surround receiver (not that there’s anything wrong with that ) I in essence use two P.S. Audio PCA -2 Preamplifiers with 2 HCPS (High Current Power Supply) One is is in the front where my Source a Modified Marantz SA-11S2 is my SACD/CD player. I run a loop from the PCA-2 in the front to the PCA-2 in the rear. 2 Crown XLS 2502 amplifiers in the front drive in parallel 3 pairs of speakers 1 pair of JBL MRX 515 , 1 pair of Klipsch Quartet, and 1 pair of EAP 15” mains stacked, and a Acoustech PL28 center channel speaker with 2 Acoustech HT-65 side speakers. 2 HSU ULS 15 powered subwoofers. The rear speakers are a pair of Klipsch Chorus 2’s with a pair of Behringer 1520 15” ‘s on top and a pair of 12” KLH Rave speakers on top, a JBL LC2 center speaker and a Acoustech HT-85 center on top of the JBL LC2. 1 Velodyne 15” powered subwoofer and a 12”HSU powered subwoofer. The amplifiers in the rear are 1Crown K2(this is arguably one of Crowns finest vintage achievements) and 1 Crown XLS 2502 both are running in parallel . Yes that’s 16 speakers ( all 15” woofers, except 2 12” woofers in the KLH , and the 10” woofers in the Quartets; and 4 powered subwoofers (3 ea. 15”, and 1 ea. 12”) The center speakers are 8” while the side speakers are 6.5” . All are horn speakers, except the KLH. An interesting observation I learned from the parallel setup, is that although 3 different pairs of speakers are connected together, they sound as ONE single unit. What is obvious is of course the headroom! But more significant is the fact that at the minimum setting, every single detail of the music material is clearly represented with clarity and depth that simply must be heard to appreciate. The term “SYNERGY” is what it’s all about. Every instrument sounds like it is supposed to sound like, it’s full size and scale. Because the music is from about 10hz-20khz the full music spectrum is covered without any effort whatsoever. I have known friends that have systems that are $$$$ with all the familiar names, and yet this compilation of gear I have assembled, has never disappointed in the degree of musical reproduction. Before I played any music, of course they were expecting some loud P.A. Auditorium Type of experience, but the look on their faces was confirmation of what I had already experienced. Music completely fills the entire room like a jello mold, I want for nothing else! I am so blessed to enjoy music this much! The Marantz player has resurrected discs that before were poorly recorded or mastered, it somehow makes them sound better than ever! A good source is critical in the Audio chain, as is a clean preamplifier! I once upon a time dreamed of having Infinty IRS V speakers back when I heard them properly set up. But then I woke up! This hodgepodge of speakers is my “poor man’s “ effort to attempt to approach the way the IRS v’s fill the room from top to bottom. I’m not going say that actually achieved this like the IRS V’s, but, I somehow managed to exceed all of my expectations! I call it a huge WIN! If I would share one thing, it would simply be to enjoy your music! What sounds good to you enjoy it! Don’t let anyone else tell you what you should buy or enjoy. Music is a personal experience and we all hear differently, so don’t let anyone try to shame you for what you own. This is partly why High End Audio stores are all but gone save a few in many cities. I’m just an old Disabled Veteran who loves music, and believes everyone deserves to enjoy music the way they like it. How many times do I remember being told in an Audio Store, after the salesman would ask me “what do you own right now “? And when I would tell him what a simple system I had, he would respond with…” you can’t possibly enjoy music listening to that crap(expletive)! And continue to verbally shame me, fully expecting me to respond like a helpless child, and say “please show me what I need to buy to enjoy music!) Nothing of the sort ever entered my mind! I instead would of course just chuckle and leave the store. The arrogance and snobbery I have experienced is truly sad. Meanwhile, some of my friends who are very wealthy would buy and sell/trade their gear like every 6 months or so. What baffled me was how much money they spent and lost when trading equipment only to never be satisfied. Go figure… Ultimately I realized that they somehow forgot how to just listen to the music, analyzing every single possible aspect, from A to Z, instead of simply being present and listening to the music, instead of being enamored with the glitzy lights and precious metals that some of the speakers and equipment was constructed from. If you spend $100k on amplifiers and they sound good, well… I hope so! It dang sure better for that price! Most “Audiophiles” when faced with two different amplifiers , speakers etc, will ultimately choose what “looks” the coolest. If you don’t believe that just ask yourself why McIntosh is so popular (surely not because of the blue meters! lol) I have never been a fan, but I am happy for those who do love them. It’s worth noting that in most used markets, McIntosh is usually more present than anything else. So perhaps many people after owning them for a while are not satisfied enough to keep them either. I remember more than a few times, when in a Audio Salon listening to a customer tell the salesman point blank, “I know the Parasound (or whatever) sounds better than the McIntosh, but I want the McIntosh because it just looks better. To each his or her own, I can really care less about the looks of something that is in the Audio chain, so long as it delivers the sound I love! In fact I would be more bothered by something that looks great but sounded awful. But again, that’s just me. But what I find tragic is when people repeatedly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment and it fails to satisfy them. For me, the silver lining is when you spend a fraction of money $ for everything and it surpasses all of your expectations! That’s the best! I feel like when you are creating a new dish in the kitchen, your creativity runs wild and often you make something that is just out of this world with flavor, like a party in your mouth! With all of the Audio gear available Consumer and Professional, there are many different ways to achieve amazing musical fidelity that can be incredibly rewarding. You just have to try different combinations until you get the sound you enjoy. It’s fun, or at least it should be right? Then you can just Enjoy Your Music! I sure do! I LOVE Music!
Paul this whole conversation sounds a little outdated. You can buy a 350w×2 crown amp for $350 and you can also buy a 1000×4 $11,000 crown amp. One is used for small dj setups and one is used for large 20,000+ live applications. Where they fly 12-14 speakers per side. Yes there durable as hell but one is built to sound ok and one is built to sound to great. I mean when we talk about being in a room where the speakers disappear and you can pinpoint where the artists is and where the vocalist is. This is our reference. Were referring to hearing the artist in a live setting. Not all audiophiles listen to jazz singers in a lounge setting some of us listen to large concerts in a venue like madison square garden or an outdoor venue of 20,000+ people. Sure it would cost you 20 million dollars to recreate that expirence at home with giant double 21" subwoofers and 24 speakers hanging from your living room ceiling. But I contend that a good crown amp sounds great for it application. They don't generally make 4000 watt audiophile grade amplifiers because they simply arnt nessesary and a crown amp in your living room wouldn't be practical and dosent look as pretty but I belive the crown sounds just fine for audiophile applications. I mean how closely are you listening to your music? Are you enjoying it or are you dissecting it? But again if your recreating the live sound event your recreating the sound of a crown amp in the first place so why wouldn't the original sound just as good if not better than the recreated sound?
Exactly this, add in the need for 3-phase power in your living room to boot! The high end amps from Crown, L'Acoustics, d&b etc. are every bit as costly as esoteric domestic products too.
this person paul is generalizing this comparison.. we know the PA amps weren't designed for home audio ..the question was hoe did the sound compare? and you can't do that hypothetically you have to listen to them both under the same circumstances ..that's what the people who are turning on to type D or A/b commercial amps are talking about .. they are not noticing a double the price tag difference.
The newer class D Crown XLS series power amplifiers get really good reviews from several popular youtube audiophiles. I have the XLS 1002 and feed it with a low cost Behringer MIC2200 two channel single tube preamp. They power two pair of Pioneer andrew jones speakers wired in parallel, and for a low budget system ($700) it plays loud and has juicy tube harmonics.
i use the 1002 as well, i found it had a noise floor but then i realized it was my pre amp stage that was cheap and USB and was amping up the noise. once i went direct to the crown the noise floor dropped and it sound incredible. not thin at all. so i would say it sounds much more full than any sub 1000 home theatre amp and im not sure how far up the ladder it goes but its the best ive heard. and i can shake the walls without even using half power on big towers. it should scare high end amp producers how effortless and clean the new crowns are and the 1002 isnt even the newest
This is one of your best videos Paul. This explanation was/is badly needed in our industry and hobby. Engineers design and work toward a specific goal or set of goals. The hierarchy of requirements determines what tradeoffs are made in the design process. Both amplifiers are good amplifiers and the engineers may be equally qualified to do their job, but the criteria in the projects (amplifiers) goals are different enough that the final products are focused on two different customers. You should feel empowered to share this message often.
Don't know why Paul would compare a multi year old Crown amp as opposed to a recent model when talking about all this. Why focus on an old Crown amp? Humm!😏 An old Crown is not a new Crown amp by any stretch!🤯🤯🤔🤔🤫
You know some audiophiles listen to large concerts. We go to Madison square garden to hear performances. These venues use crown amps. And try to recreate that expirence at home. We spent $1000's to bring that into our home on a smaller scale. Be were trying to recreate the sound of a crown amp. It dosent make sense that a crown amp wouldn't be able to recreate that sound. I'm not talking about a $350 crown amp I'm talking about there flagship touring amp. That's the sound we heard at the show and the sound we wanna hear at home. I don't see how paul can claim that those amps won't sound fine in you home setup mabey a little overkill but it would work just fine as it has the exact sound signature as the original recording. Now if you wanna get into room size and processing that's a different story. But as for the sound of the amp I think paul's a little outdated when he brings up a 40 yr old crown as apposed to a new ps audio or a mac or a krell
@@filippiasec 4×3500hd it's there flagship touring amp weighs only 30lbs and packed with processing and it's 1000w×4 @4ohms they run about 12 grand a piece. I mean everything has its place and a lot of that cost might be put into networking and processing for large arrays but this would be a great solution for bi amping a pair of nice home speakers if you were so inclined to do so and you had a pair that could handle the power. You don't have to use there processing or networking capabilities they have an app where you can adjust all of those capabilities it turn them off completely. And I'm 99% sure they still make these amps in the US. They're low end "pro" line is made in china but this is the harmon company that makes there jbl line array speakers for large venues
@@jamband4230 Thanks for info! Will see this one:) Regarding handling the power: I have my crown xls 1500 in bridge mode (1050w) connected to a Tannoy XT C centre speaker, which is probably rated up to 100w. I don't think power is a problem, as long as you keep everything on reasonable listening volume:)
You just took me on a trip down memory lane. Back around 1988 I bought a used Amcron (Crown) SL-1 preamp and it wasn't great until my tech friend did a small power supply mod and changed out some OP amps. After those mods it was actually a pretty nice preamp. It has been too long for me to remember the part numbers that were pulled out and replaced but I agree early Op amps were awful.
I have noticed while touring high end listening rooms and checking out speaker rooms that there is definitely a place and distinct purpose for a high end tube, or non tube amp. Especially something that has insane accuracy in its ability to change amplitude the exact way the engineers and designers wanted. But also, in one of the tours that I took and got to see a Live Sound Speaker/Amp design room, 50ft long 35 feet wide and 30ft tall. With proper acoustic control and reinforcement, there was 2 crown XTi4002 each in bridged mono, one paying the left and channel, and the other playing the right channel, and it was powering like 8 L Acoustic k3 speakers per amp. Some of the most incredible audio quality I've even experienced and the experience was actually FEELING the audio, not just the bass frequencies being felt inside the blood, you could feel the mid and high frequencies tickling and the volume on the SPL meter for the room was 93 DbFS. Like dude, come on... I have never had a listening experience that incredible even in a $100k listening room. Pro commercial amps are starting to get pretty damn good at quality.
As a sound engineer installer in my past over the years of doing upgrades I have found economically for a lot of my customers it wasn’t necessarily the inexpensive amp they used as it was the crappy speakers they had 75% of the time I would just put in at that time I was a bag end dealer a set of new speakers and it made a world of difference. It was not the absolute best option but it was the option that fit their budget. My motto is if you’ve made it sound a little better you’ve made life a little better
There are a few pro audio manufacturers that would match a audiophile amp like Lab Gruppen(swiss I think) but with a big price tag and enormous wattage .Merry Christmas to you sir!!
I started with Behringer a500's in my home theater system and later Crown class D and then Crown Class A/B amps. I listen to music and SACD's on this system as well. The Crown 1502's I really tried to like. I patted myself on the back for how much money i was saving. They had gobs of power but something was off. One day I swapped a class A/B Crown into the system I had here and it was definitely better so went the full class A/b route and sold the 1502's. Never really happy though. I got tired of turning the amps on and off. ( Well mostly my wife did. ) so i looked at consumer amps with a 12v trigger. Found a used Parasound A51 and everything changed. Sounded infinitely better the instant I put this amp in the system.
The class D Crown 1502's were definitely the worst sounding amps i ever had here. Can't put my finger on as to exactly why either. i read somewhere that a user described them as "Uninvolving" and I agree with that sediment. They went loud but with no warmth and were one dimensional. I changed speakers like 3 times since i had this in the system along with cables and didn't realize what the problem was. Luckily sold it really quickly with not too bad of a hit.
Point taken, but I have some 10 inch dual voice coil Volfenhagen speakers for stage use 2000watt 2ohm. It takes 2 xl 1500 crown amps to satisfy 30 pound magnets. Sounds good outdoors, but don't use indoor they pull on the sheet rock nails and break glass!🤣
I'll put my old Crown K2 up against a comparable priced "high end" amp. Paul actually gave zero information as to why the high end was better. Pretty lame actually.
Strange... I thought he answered the question perfectly. You use the term "better" loosely. He actually stated that a pro amp is better at ruggedness & reliability. What more do you want from him?
I have spent 20 years using Crown, QSC and other pro amps. I am also an audiophile and over the years owning dozens of makes. The pro amp has to stand up to a lot of abuse on the road. It gets bumped and driven hard. They all have fans to cool the insides. The design also needs to provide high power output. Audiophile amps are much lower in power since most only have to cover a living room. My pro amps range from 300 watts per channel up to 1000. My audiophile amps run from 50 to 200 watts. The audiophile amps need to run quieter. Audiophile amps need good stereo imagining and need to provide depth and dynamic range to the music. So we are talking about different goal so you get different amplifiers. Ditto with speakers.
The ear test is what matters to me. I'd go with a $400 Emotiva A-300 over an XLS but it is what you think that matters. I think the $110 SMSL Sanskrit Mk 2 sounds better than the $250 Schiit Modi Multibit so I bought it. It blew my mind.
Schiit's $250 plays in the same league where SMSL does. Price always says more than a label. So, there is nothing special. But at the same time with the other models Schiit offers something that SMSL will never do. I've investigated their photos, and I like what I see inside. I understand how such high price is calculated. It has reasons. But if you take a look inside LampizatOr Amber 3, its price as of $3900 is an absolute FRAUD! Because what I see inside, is $20 Amanero from eBay (without a galvanic isolation), no sample refiner, one(!) ES DAC (I'm not sure it is 9038Pro, may be just 9028), no good low-noise power, $10 bluetooth from eBay, capacitor output, and 4 cheap tubes $80 max. But they have purchased some good reviewers though...
I bought a used 15 year old Crown I-tech 6000 on E-Bay it was there top line touring amp when new and would not have been cheap when new, I use it in my dedicated music only listening room . I control it with a Rotel RC-1590 pre amp. I am very happy with the sound quality but I mostly listen to 70's 80's pop and hard rock. I cannot comment about the cheaper line XLS and xti series and other makes I have not tried. What I can say is these are high quality rugged amps that can be dropped from 6ft and still work, they are readily available used from around $1000USD upwards depending on age ,model .condition and hours. They have massive power output 1500watts@ 8 ohms and doubles into 4 ohms just in stereo mode [for the 6000] more than some of the most expensive hi fi mono blocks. They can drive heavy loads below 2 ohms. The I- Tech model is made in the USA is light weight 28lbs has banana plugs outputs and XLR inputs. There are lots of useful things on the display such as hours used ,input sensitivity gain even voltage movement like on a power generator. It can be used anywhere in the world with 120-240 volt just change the power cable plug no converter or mods required .By there very industry standard they work in the they have to sound good and be reliable. They only down side I can see for home use is the fans are on almost all the time but that does not worry me as I play medium to loud so I don't here them. To me the I-Tech 's are top shelf amps that are great value on the used market if you can find a good one and have similar tastes in music to me. I have heard they can be expensive to repair if they do fail. It would be great to see one of the UA-cam audiophile expert's do a comparison with hi end consumer amp with a top line pro amp of any brand. I am not suggesting it would sound as good or high end as a PS audio BHK or Krel just that the better pro amps can sound great and offer great value for money on the used market and may be relative for some people to consider in home use. By the way I am sure the 20 or so capacitor's in the i-tech are decent quality.
I have worked on electronic equipment for over forty years and as far as caps go they are one of the most reliable components in the circuitry if they are matched to the application. These people that have a good amp and then believe this baloney about replacing caps for better sound usually end up screwing up and damaging other components. IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T MUK WITH IT ! I worked on a sound system in a club and those pro amps would pull so much current from the mains that the lights would dim with the bass notes. Just because you can't afford to spend five grand for an amp doesn't mean you can't have great sound. In that club we generated so much sound pressure that you could take an empty beer bottle and feel the air being pushed out by the low end woofers.
Paul, you should listen to some amps from MC2 audio. That's proper pro amps with high-end sound! MC2 was founded by Terry Clark and Ian Mccarthy, out Klark Technique. Proper sound guys!
There was a few years that crown was considered a high-end audio amplifier even though it was built like a solid block of steel. I never liked the sound but a lot of people did.
Respectfully, gonna have to disagree on this one. Crown XLS drivecore 2 sound every bit as good (and better in some cases) as my Emotiva amps. You might argue that Emotiva isn't high end. That's fair. In my application, I'm using the amps in Y mode, with the built in active crossovers, to bi amp my custom built speakers. With this, they behave like monoblocks. Imaging is fantastic, soundstage is huge, tone is spot on, rich and full, detail is precise. The speakers just disappear.
Well you gotta give Paul credit for not burying this question and actually taking it on which tells me he really believes in what he saying (whether true or not). #Respect
I agree with your comment... i have been A-B comparing my Emotiva XPA DR2 vs. MC602 vs Crown XLS2002... i bought the Crown off Amazon just for -hits and giggles... and honestly im not laughing rather my mind is blown.... the XLS Drivecore2 amps can be put in an Audiophile room... Like mine... im keeping it... i respect Paul and PS audio, but they really need to take Crown seriously to see what their doing right...
I think emotiva is not good amp, and it cheap too. You can have try with Naim, Grypon, Hegel, McIntosh, Octave amp you will see big difference special if you pick highest model. The sound also depend on your CDP/DAC + your Speaker. If those are not good enough you change amp also can hear munch different
@@speakertest5413 the Fully balanced differential amps from Emotiva are excellent, 1/4 the price of my McIntosh MC602... Solid build quality... Its very dynamic, just a tad neutral vs my McIntosh... I run everything Balanced XLR... streaming Tidal and MQA... when i bring in the Crown there's something very impressive with it's sound... performance to value its outstanding
Superb video and thanks! I hate it so much when I see people doing "dyno tests" on amplifiers only to state that they don't care how they sound... It's almost the same thing. Talking about my current issue - car audio, because the home is covered (LOL). Very hard to find a "musical" set-up for a vehicle, one which does not sound like running away from something... Merry Christmas!
It's different worlds. I have been to tons of concerts over the years. The venue for acoustics can be terrible even with the best equipment, the singer or band can have an off night or be sick, the engineer setting the sound board for the concert can suck. It's like a great chef can take mediocre ingredients and make them taste amazing. An ok chef can take amazing ingredients, screw up, and still be good. Half the people at concerts are drunk out of their mind and tone deaf when it comes to how sound should be. They just see the artist and dance around drunk. I have heard concerts that were incredible and others with a great singer just okay because of other factors.
@@poserwannabe1 Paul probably can't remember the last time he heard a Crown amp and is honestly not a good source for giving advice on how one sounds. Not that he's not a knowledgable person, but sometimes experts can be a little misleading to the average consumer because they are so deep into their own products they tend to be out of the loop somewhat when it comes to other brands. The pro audio field makes constant advances just like the "high end audio" field does.
C'mon Paul, we are going through the same sales pitch as the power cables. Biiiiiggggg power cables that the consumer pays and really they do not measure any different than the average power cable that come with the unit... example, Monster Cables what they do not tell upi is the fundred od chip Romex inside the walls. a 5F of "special," cable is going to make a difference when you have all those 100's of feet of ordinary cable in the walls Snake oil. Same as component in the amps. There are components very expensive and there are Components with the exact characteristics and equal measurements that can be substitutes for. Yes some of the inexpensive components nay fail sooner. However as the technology advances the it is more and more unlikely. I examined amplifiers and radios from the 20s' with much lower technology and relatively inexpensive at the time of purchase that still working after all these years. So, another Snake oil.
@Lloyd Stout Ok, then re battle your position and explain yourself on your position. I am interested. I explain it from an engineering point of view. Capacitance, resistance, semiconductors and every component in a system has unit of erotic stories and standards of measuring. Even the spikers alone.
Good to know that more expensive capacitor sounds a way better than a "cheap" one? What about the resistors? And what about the internal board soldering? This channel is great - you learn something new every day that trashes-out many stuff one learn going towards the Electronic Eng. degree. A world of "hi-end" audio manufacturing is amazing place...
The major difference between pro amps and high end amps is Paul doesn't get paid for selling amps with a huge company behind it that makes 100-1000X more units so scaling doesnt come down to the consumer in terms of cost..
The great irony with this guy, and indeed many of the "senior audiophiles" on UA-cam, is that males in their age group have long since lost the high frequency hearing necessary to distinguish "audiophile" quality audio from a low quality mp3 downloaded from Napster in the 90's, while teenagers who've yet to suffer any neurosensory hearing loss are perfectly satisfied with their iPhone and AirPods.
That is the dirty secret isn't it? Old guys with deteriorated hearing telling us what sounds best to "their" ears. I'm in the same boat except I realize my hearing is bad. I want nice stuff but I'm not looking for crazy good stuff because I'll never notice the difference.
You are correct Paul, pro amps are not designed for home hifi use but some not all do serve very well in a home hifi set up. I believe this is called a byproduct. If you are on a budget then it can pay off by doing some research. I have a pro amp called Apart Champ 2 driving a pair of Magnepan.7i speakers very well, it even has the word “audiophile” on the front of the amp.😁
I say it depends what the home application is. I personally like to throw parties at home with friends and don't use amps for critical listening of jazz ensembles. I like nice punchy beats and smooth highs. And I like to play late into the night without the amp overheating or shutting down. I run crown xti 1002. Perfect for me.
You probably get too many comments to respond but I am seriously considering getting the Sprout100 ELAC system. I mainly listen to old school hip hop and R&B. My budget and space is limited so this setup seems to fill both check marks. My gut tells me even your budget minded gear has got to be better than anything I have ever heard.
After this video you've just become my favorite UA-cam high end Hi-fi guy. As you say "Musical" sounding is what its about - not electronic measurements.
@PS Audio -- Paul, can't say I fully agree with your views here. Some of the best amps I've heard are the Crown Studio Reference I/II models. Also, their older Macro-Tech 1200 model sounds very good, not least when bridged. Only serious drawback with the 1200's is their build-in fixed rpm fan, which is very noisy. Unless one can hide them away (without blocking their ventilation) they're not recommended in a hi-fi installation, which is a shame given their good sonics. MC² S800/1400, also studio series, are excellent; in fact they'd be a likely choice of mine if I were to buy anew. Crown's K2 amp is great for sub duties (I use it myself), or run up to ~1kHz. Oh well, I still prefer my Belles SA30 pure Class A amp coupled directly to my horn section from ~800Hz on up.
I have a Crown SA-2 "Distinction Series" Amp (which got a nice, small, write up in the May 1980 Issue of High Fidelity). It has a variable speed fan which can be loud (if you were driving very inefficient speakers or a dummy load) at higher power levels, I don't hear it when playing my Klipsch Industrial LaScalas :)
@@SLCVideoProductions Forgot to mention the Studio Ref. I/II also has variable speed fans, as do the MC² Audio S-series, and you'd have to run them pretty hot for the fans to start speeding up. A friend of mine playing occasionally at live levels with heavy-to-drive speakers + subs can set off the fans with his two, bridged Crown Studio Ref. II's, but with the La Scala's, Industrial not least, I can't imagine ever getting those fans spining :)
@@mikaelmllersnnichsen539 The only reason I know the found can get loud was that I purchased a pair of KEF 107's and had to crank the system up a lot to get any decent bass and the fan would go to high speed when I reached a certain level. Then I realized that the KEF's needed re-coning and spent a weekend doing that, but ended up putting the CROWN into my other room with the LaScalas so it will almost never come on high- it always is on low, but pretty un noticeable for the most part.
Well, I put a Behringer A500 (which is essentially a QSC knockoff) into my high end room together with immensely good bookshelf speakers, and it is the best system I have ever heard, bar none. Super musical, the reverb tails and presence is inside the room. Ofcourse there are great and not so great amplifiers, but in my opinion, loudspeakers and their crossover design is what is most important to how the systems sounds as a whole..
@@SilmarilS79 I have tried it, but in my opinion all class D amplifiers are superior in bass/punch, but not comparable to class AB in the mid-to-high frequency area, mainly because the nature of the class D amplifier involves processing the audio signal in unfavorable ways, which the class AB amplifiers does not have to do. In my opinion, the switching noise in class D amps makes them somewhat fatiguing to listen to with linear and true fidelity loudspeakers when they have to tackle complex music/source material. I also tried amps with the well regarded Hypex UCD modules, and I am truly baffled why so many consider these amplifiers to sound good. To me, generally the higher power class D amplifier, the more the switching frequency interference sucks the life out of the music.
I’m from the concert industry. I can assure you that using the right pro-audio equipment, I can get a room for 3,000 pax to sound better than hifi systems that cost $400k in a room for a few enthusiasts. We are talking clarity etc. Not volume. But it’s not with Crown amplifiers. You just need L-Acoustic Kara or K2 speaker systems. 😬 Yes ... I do have a high end system myself and not a boom box.
@@AdamHiFi ... uh huh ... but 400k for a few people vs a Kara rig for 3,000. On a per head basis the Kara rig is still cheaper 😈 It’s just that too many hifi enthusiasts do not know that pro-PA can sound amazing. They think the home set up is the ‘bestest’
@@hushpuppykl I can imagine. But then you say the pro stuff is optimized for large venues, not for a cosy living room. So purpose? Or would you be able to outfit a 100 sqr foot room with pro equipment and still sound subtle. A bit like mounting a V8 on a bycicle?
Now we need a video to justify why for example Wilson audio speakers can cost $300,000. I guess they’re using diamond laminated voice coils or something like that?
There are amps that fall half-way between. Some of the MC2 amps were designed to meet the requirements of both installations / touring and the studio monitoring market, and they sound fantastic and are very at home in a home stereo application. They compare favorably to some fairly well-regarded high-end amplifiers. That said, they're a lot more expensive than the Crown XLS amps that a lot of people are using. One big downside to almost any pro amp are the cooling fans. The Aforementioned MC2 amps aren't quiet- not like a server, but not great either. There are a few other Pro manufacturers that have made very nice-sounding amplifiers. I have yet to hear or test a Crown amp that really impressed me. Even the Macro-Tech 3600 that people rave about was, to me at least, overbuilt and unrefined. Good for taking abuse, but not anything I'd want to listen to. Speaking of cooling fans, the 3600 is as loud as a server (and weighs as much as one).
If you are using to pro amp to drive vintage speakers or sub woofers, there are pro amps that have RCA inputs, like the Crown XLi series (XLi3500). You are not stuck with XLP connections, so you do not have to use a converter like an Art Cleanbox Pro unless you want to. The XLR cable's primary advantage is the can be ran for long distances without picking up any noise. When you are only dealing with two amps sitting next to each other, a set of high-quality short RCA cables work just as well. My vintage speakers are rated at 350 watts each. I have a 130 watt times 9, high end THX theater amp. But its input power is rated at only 110 VAC @ 650 watts. This is what its power supply is limited to. Do the math, running at 100% efficiency (which is impossible), that's 72 watts per channel. When driving only my vintage speakers, my theater amp does a good job. Kick in the other 7 speakers, then that really nice amp comes up way short. The Anthem STR Power Amplifier, 400 watts times two @ $6500, would drive my vintage speakers fabulously. But compared to the Crown XLi1500, 330 watts times two @ $425, most people would not be able to hear the difference. And if you compare the cost, the Anthem is with out a doubt, a better amp, but it does cost 15.3 times more. I intend to bi-amp my vintage speakers; using the theater amp for the tweeter and mid range, then using a AB class Crown XLi3500 pro-amp to drive the two 15 inch woofers. This way I am using both amps for what they are best at. Crown amps are easy to find used, and much cheaper, but still in great shape. The same is not true for high powered home amps like the Anthem.
Given the choice between focusing my money on amps vs speakers, I would focus on the speakers. The weakest link is when you are transferring acoustic energy to electrical energy (microphone) and transferring it back to acoustic energy (speakers.) That said, I am amazed at how incomplete amplifier specifications are! In the early days of solid state, vacuum tube amps had a much better sound even though the "specs" were worse. It took a long while before the nature of slew induced distortion came to light! Early amps spec'ed out great as long as you ignored what happened when the base current of a transistor was changed too fast causing a burst of noise! Modern amps are way beyond that, but just because the specs look good doesn't mean something is going on that doesn't show up in common specs. (For example, supply cap quality)
cause audiophiles think they’re better than proffesional people.. they didnt realise that they’re music came from a proffesional standard equipements!..
I don't think I'm better, I know I'm better. Ask any self respecting audiophile what the hardest issue to deal with is, and you'll get the same answer over and over. Finding good recordings. Its by far the biggest challenge we face. "they didn't realize that they’re music came from a professional standard equipment!.." (That's a direct quote, but I took the liberty of fixing all your spelling mistakes.) Nothing could be further from the truth. We're painfully aware where all this crap comes from. Its the studio people that are not aware of good pro gear like Bryston, Antelope, ATC and many others. If you are going to do this for a living, why not use good equipment?
@@solarfall2728 Better at what exactly? Spending money on audio equipment? Most audiophiles know jack shit about electric engineering nor actual music.
Owning Threshold and Nakamichi amps in the past... My Crown K2 is every bit as good. And silent running. And has a shit ton more headroom. It ain't aesthetic though.
@@TheEchelon You don't have to be an electrical engineer to listen to music or know good sound. That's just a go to excuse "professionals" use to try and win an argument. Its so fundamental you can consider it instinctive. Here's an example. DSOTM is considered worldwide to be an excellent example of a modern, high quality recording. Does someone have to tell you its a good recording? Of course not. All you have to do is listen to it. I've even asked several spec/measurement clowns, that were already in agreement with me on good recordings, if there was some type of measurements that could prove a good recording was a good recording. They didn't see that one coming. Needless to say, I got no answer. My counter to your statement that "Most audiophiles know jack shit about electric engineering nor actual music.", is simply, neither do the professionals. Given the poor quality of the vast majority of recordings, I don't see how anyone can deny it.
@@solarfall2728 seems like your better than a sound engineer for sure you don’t even know how to mix one mic.. setting gains,gate,compressor limiter and cutting freqs... i know you don’t even know how to do a 4 ways active crossover.. your a just a hobbyist.
I am not surprised to hear that. Because, this gentleman obviously, never bothered to critically listen an Crown amplifier, nor to peak inside of it. If he did, he would never embarrassed himself with this video. PS Audio is all about marketing, Crown is all about science. Take your pick!
My hifi system, as well as my home studio will always be a combination of high end and pro gear, because I get what’s available to me as long as it SOUNDS good! Edit: I have a lot of behringer stuff LOL. I think their mother corporation manufactures components nowadays!
Ok all of that didn’t really answer anything. They are not designed to do the job of the other ? But wasn’t that the question to begin with .. why not ? Why can’t pro amp work fine in home environments? I understand consumer spec amp may not last on pro circuit but vice versa , why not ?
At California Audio Labs we had a Tempest come in for repair that had been used in a mobile sound truck. The original Tempest was a mod of a Magnavox player and had a plastic chassis. It also used polystyrene capacitors in the sound path. The heat inside the van was high enough to not only melt the caps but also warped the chassis rendering the player unrepairable. High end gear is not built or designed for the rigors of pro use.
Pro audio does have a place in home audio, if you need lots of power for a subwoofer pro audio is definitely the way to go, if you have a good crossover device and can cut out all of the higher frequencies then it’s worth running them not to say if you have the money to do the higher end stuff but if your sub is only playing sub 40hz then it’s definitely irrelevant to use the higher end stuff. (Just hide it, and modify the fan) 😂😂😂 great video.
Ive owned Crown Crest and Lab Gruppen , and wouldnt hesitate to use pro gear on my hifi , but then again , I do like my hifi to sound like a tour rig. But when you keep in mind that the music your listening too was played through pro grade gear at the concert it all starts to get a bit odd. it was recorded prior to being amplified , and mixed to be accurate , or as accurate as the engineer on the day fancied so really if you want the live sound , like you heard at the gig you need pro gear not hifi gear to be true to the experience.
"Jimi" Hendrix was famous for using feedback and distortion but that doesn't mean that you want to hear his music reproduced using amps with feedback and distortion. Producing music and reproducing music are two entirely different things.
@@lynnpoole7830 slightly different as that was the source , it was played back through pro gear at the concert though. Probably DC300As , and lots of them . One of the nicest sounding PAs I ever heard was a Meyer ML rig using Hand H V800s in parallel mono mode , it was awesome
I have an XLi2500 fed by an RME ADI DAC 2 fs. It is a very neutral, accurate sound. The DAC is a HiFi version of a pro DAC, they just eliminated a couple features. I really like it.
@Lloyd Stout wonder what the guy in the studio truck was listening on ,,, in a lorry thats bounced about and frozen and toasted ,, Ill bet it didnt have valves in it ,,, starting to see the pattern yet ??
Some old valve pro amps sound very good. Klein & Hummel, and Telefunken for example. But they where Studio Amps in there age and the times you could get them cheap are over.
My ME1500 amp is for both Pro and home ( consumer ?) use it's better than a BHK and an EV or JBL power amp. It goes from DC to 400Khz within 0.8dB and has lower total harmonic distortion than Krells McKintosh or Quad amplifiers
I kind of disagree as far as the Crown XLS drivecore2. first, it all depends on what you're using your Crown amp for. secondly, if you look at most high-end subwoofer amps they all use D-class amps internally. plus Crown sold more amps in the last 5 years than any other company. not because they're the Top of the line. they do have competitors. but if you're planning on using the Crown XLS as a subwoofer amp. you will have a hard time beating it for price and quality. even if you use the Crown xls 1002. which can put out 1100 watts at 4 ohms in bridge mode. which can easily drive four 10-inch subwoofers. and don't put a hole in your electric bill. it all depends on your app. at least half of the people who buy it. don't know how to set it up correctly.
Yamaha Pro Audio Amplifiers will give some Audiophile Amps a run for it's money....For example, their P-Series Amps are incredible! Powerful, lot's of headroom, can drive 2 ohm loads and sound very very good. Great for Klipsch and JBL...QSC Amplifiers are also very good.
@@kirkcunningham6146 After literally trying every amp in the book, including some larger "audiophile" models we finally tamed a pair of JBL 4435s in a difficult control room room with PC2002s running bridged. The guy writing the checks was thrilled!
I'm using two Crown XLS1000 amps to drive Zu Omen Dirty Weekends and a VMPS New larger sub. I find it hard to convince myself that it isn't supposed to sound good, because it just does. They do need to have their loud fans swapped out, though. Stock fans were hi-fi showstoppers for sure. The volume trims on the Crown also allow me to adjust the sensitivity of my preamp volume knob. Other high end amps are surely calling my name, but I don't feel the pressing need to spend the cash as the Crowns appear to do everything right within the limitations of my room.
Tim de pavaracini just passed away but listen to him in his biography when he was interviewed. Recording engineers kept him flush with cash. Also Manley makes a good bit of recording equipment. Like Bascom they know tubes do some things great.
Hi Paul, Now I get the amp issue. A bit off-topic, I bought Aperion's Allaires and sub for my kitchen. I want to buy their Verus iii surround set for the living room, but replace a 13-year old Yamaha RX V-3800. Everything surround sound points to Marantz and Denon most often, then Yamaha and a couple of others. The more I listen to you about speakers and equipment, the more undecided I become. Thought your Stellar bundle would work. ?? Should I not be looking at anything Audiophile for surround sound (no home theater) and just buy Marantz/Denon?
Crown uses high quality parts, such as 1% resistors where it matters, and they even used to hand-match transistors to assure best performance. This assertion that these major manufacturers are using inferior parts, or parts that are less-than, is bogus.
Have used older (not class D) QSC in some applications - massive toroidal on board, pretty dynamic. Two thoughts; 1; Is Crown/QSC et al a good budget option (you can pick up 'my' QSC for $250ish) where lots of grunt is required - LRS speaker? Or maybe something else with low efficiency (thinking of a particular brand but forget name..) ahh-apogee 2; Has anyone tried modding these things? Of course there won't be a magic recipe for 'giant killing' but given the design brief there must be loads you can do.
@@petersouthernboy6327 Yep, I think that's the model. When I say 'pick up' I mean used. 10 on ebay at mo from 200-300 GBP (in the older style casing). 'Semi pro' use running hours can be low - a lot of those outfits average a couple of gigs a month or less. In fact the one at work does about 50 hrs over the year.
Some old wisdom here from Paul... The new breed of PA-Technicians and Club owners has been cultivating a set-up that consists of powerful, most neutral/linear amps with low noise floor, that only transports the already processed signal. They don't want amps with a tone. Any tone. The tone is tailored to measure through compressor(s) and (non-graphic) eq(s). An approach that is starting to garner a following in High End circles, harking back to the high-end studio quality of HiFi-Systems like the elaborate (golden age) top systems by Sony, Onkyo, Sansui and especially Pioneer in the mid-to-late 70's... YOUR sound, and if you get bored with it, you just dial into another one.... A neutral amp is doable, affordable and of great benefit here. Sorry, Paul, but the days of "sweet sounding" amps are numbered in certain circles, whereas more is expected from the other components in the system, be they flexible or static. Pro-PA-Amps of a certain kind can easily bring this to the table. The eighties/nineties philosophies have had they're day for many newcomers, especially those with a taste for analog designs. Just my two €-cents from what I learn from a number of forums...
I'm a newer audiophile, and I'm planning to experiment with this very topic. I feel it's possible to utilize pro amps and make them sound as good as any other in a good setup. I'll be finding out.
Get yourself a qsc rmx 1450a and a decent dac and you'll never go wrong, especially if you run it balanced. Does rated power from 20hz to 20khz, fully class ab 'after the 1450 it is class H, which is still good', built like a tank, it is even 2 ohm stable, the power supply is well over built to, if the fan is ever to loud it is so simple to replace it with something quieter that matches the stock fans cfm rating, You'll have it for 40 years long as you take care of it and blow some compressed air though the heat sink fins and though out the amplifier every few years. I've seen qsc's rmx line "the series before the current rmxa line" be turned on and stay on for 15 years with never being turned off.... My 1850hd is a great example of this, it's been used and abused, dropped down stairs and shorted out 'by one of my buddies who didn't know what he was doing' despite all that, it still sounds as good as the day I got it new 14 years ago... I have a qsc a 3.7 monoblock from 1976 that still works as well... Their quality has always been first rate...
@@ms19631964 it's a chunk of change but what you get is an amplifier that is rated guaranteed rms continuous average power from 20hz to 20khz with both channels drivien into 8 ohms and 4 ohm loads with an added bonus of true non thermal limiting 2 ohm per channel stability which is very rare today in your standard linear based class ab or h pro amps, most amplifiers, take crowns xls or xli series as an example are only rated at 1khz at rated power, music is not a 1khz sine wave testone, it varies though the full spectrum of our hearing, id rather an amp be able to do the same amount of power at 20hz and also 20khz, its only natural, not only do you get honest power figures, but you get absolutely top class build quality, sound quality and overall reliability first in class that stands above the rest and a 6 year warranty to boot! Qsc... Nothing but the absolute best. In a rack case, if id drop those rmx or rmxa series Amps off a truck or down the stairs, I want the confidence to know those suckers will still work because I have a show to do, not only from that but 20 years from now where they will still be making me money. With qsc, it eliminates the worry, only thing that needs to be done every year or two is to blow out the heatsink fins to remove dust to keep them running cool, do that and you'll have them for decades!
Idk your stella amps have more in common with crown xls amps than they do different (stella measures better but lacks dsp). BHK is in a different league of course but its kinda silly money so it would be.
This is so funny in so many ways. Audiophiles want their systems to sound just like the band is playing in their living room and yet they dont want the actual Amp the band uses to make the sound they do on stage. Also QSC has a less then .05% failure after 3 years on the road. Dont think they are built cheap. Also a lot of home theaters use "pro" Amps just because they can be installed in a rack.
I own a Crown XLi 2500. Great amp for the price. Makes an excellent amp for people on a budget or just getting into hifi. Then you save up and get something better. It's a very neutral amp with lots of power. With a good source and preamp you get pretty good sound. I'm sure it doesn't test great compared to a high end amp, but to rookie audiophile ears it does a good job.
As a pro sound engineer we use amplifiers (technically "controllers" these days as the signal processing is largely built in) that cost every bit as much as high end domestic units. The likes of Behringer & the value lines from Crown & QSC are certainly not what we're deploying on the road, more like the Crown I-Tech level or the L'Acoustics LA12X which are specifically designed to compliment the speaker system they are driving. Where Paul is correct is that the designs have to incorporate parameters domestic amp builders need not focus on. 15,000 people asking for their money back does not good marketing make!
There are a lot of pro amps that sound terrible like the wind is howling through the speakers and there are a lot of hi-fi amps that sound like tin cans. I do however think that you can live with both worlds. I'm going to be buying a pro amp pretty soon (Dynacord) and use it on the low end of my stereo system. It's clean enough and powerful and can handle 2 ohm loads if necessary. Cost is approx. $1000. On the mids and highs , I have a Bryston 4b SST for detail. Each sector has something good to offer. By the way , try building your own speakers with pro drivers and you won't be disappointed.
It's called being able to fleece someone. Pro gear has to live in a commercial world delivering quality at a realistic price. Domestic hi-fi gear has has no limits - price wise of course
It not only has to deliver quality, it has to delivery industry standard quality, which is a very high bar to achieve. It means there is no better quality unless you start interjecting subjective non-linearity into the signal or start upgrading components with the same values. I'm floating around the idea of negative distortion in my mind. You start getting distortion because they playback equipment does not have enough of the same sort of distortion as appeared on the mixing board when it was recorded, mixed and mastered, so the flaws of the recording start to appear - see negative distortion. I've found this to actually be just as bad as the other more traditional forms of distortion.
I'm considering purchasing an MC2 Audio S800 amplifier for powering a set of full range speakers at home. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference compared to a traditional high end amplifier.
Im catching on that Paul often re-visits alot of questions/inquirys. Theres a few other points such as pro amps being designed to drive pro-speakers, and pro speakers being designed for outdoor/very large spacial environments. Theres a very fine but DISTINCT line between Home, Car, & Pro audio mos def!
Is it easier to say, Crown amp doesn't have such eye catching VU meter, bulb with yellow light, and a rectangular remote? And as well as a noisy fan to dissipate heat so efficiently such that it can run 24x7 even in a cramped equipment rack! And it won't cost you a fortune!
Pro audio amps and Crown Drivecore amps in particular have gained a legitimate foothold in the home audio world and no doubt Crown is enjoying every penny of it. Crown has the design/engineering ability to capitalize on this relatively new revenue stream and I am looking forwards to seeing this happen. The Crown Class D amps are only going to get better. I am using a Crown XLS 2502 to drive four 10" subs in a pair of sealed cabinets for home theater. The headroom in this setup, the shear ability to cleanly go beyond what I'll ever need is fantastic.
Also, remember that audiophile amps sales don't come near the volume of market of Crown or Behringer. So they must take a higher mark-up to make profit. Price don't always dictate quality in the audio world.
@@SilmarilS79 You got that right..My two NEW Behringer EP4000 for only 900 Euros together sounds better in my livingroom than you would think.
I totally agree. I was kind of afraid to buy the Crown XLS. due to many people who have purchased it but did not configure it correctly. it takes a bit of know-how to use it properly. It definitely makes a great subwoofer amp. I bought XLS 1002 as an experiment on DIY subwoofers.
I'm driving four 10-inch subs in bridge mode at 4 ohms. sounds awesome. but to get to work right with an HT receiver you need a converter box to go from an unbalanced to a balanced connection with a slight preamp. I used the Art Cleanbox Pro. which changed the entire sound.
If you are using to pro amp to drive vintage speakers or sub woofers, there are pro amps that have RCA inputs, like the Crown XLi series (XLi3500). You are not stuck with XLP connections, so you do not have to use a converter like an Art Cleanbox Pro unless you want to. The XLR cable's primary advantage is the can be ran for long distances without picking up any noise. When you are only dealing with two amps sitting next to each other, a set of short high quality RCA cables work just as well.
Finally somebody with sensibility. XLR cables are not necessary for a home theater that's not running 50-100 foot or more cables.@@quitmanlott7394
I'm running Crown Drivecore 2s.... I love these things to death. They sound great.
We did a blind listening test a while back - all amps calibrated to the same reference output. The amp that came out on top (to our own surprise) was a fairly modestly price class AB pro studio amplifier - ART SLA1. The second was a class A audiophile amplifier, third was a Crown XLS amp and then below that a mid-fi amp (older Adcom). So always go by listening blind if possible.
QSC 1450a is an AB Amp. Great sound and not power-hungry.
What equipment was the test using? If the speakers are very sensitive, like some of Magnepan's speakers, the difference is very noticeable, especially in the higher frequencies. Using a Crown for the woofers and a more delicate amp for the top end is the best of both worlds. However, as I said, it depends on the speakers you use. It's the same as with everything else; if you connect a UHD Blu-ray player to an old CRT, it will still look like crap.
I dragged my Crown XLS 2502 to a store and played it on the Magnepan 20.7 (just for fun since I know the owner), and the store owner cried due to the background noise and how the Crown handled the top end. It sounded hollow, like you ripped the soul out of the music.
This subject keeps popping up. I find it interesting because so much of the recorded music we listen to was actually mastered using “pro” equipment. Makes your head spin, doesn’t it.
Yup its a bit of a paradox. Sort of liek the fact that a great sounding setup can actually sound better than a live performance in theory lol. Much more to sound than meets the eye...
Agree. How can the pro equipment be good enough to record the music but not good enough to play it back?
@@doronor6552 good pro amps sound fantastic because of science. Good audiophile amps sound great because of religion. Audio industry professionals are usually guided by the science of good sound, and thus use high-quality and great sounding pro-audio gear.
Hello just wanted to add that pro audio amplifiers are not used in the process of recording and mixing records. Nothing you hear goes through them. They may be used for monitoring in the studio but these amps just need to measure flat which virtually all amps do. It makes a lot of sense that pro amps would not sound as refined or as good as hi fi ones.
I’m actually scared to read the comments on this one.
😅
Feeling is mutual. Bass I love you too.❤️
I have owned a few high end power amps, parasound, atc, bryston etc
Non of them sound as good as my crown xls 2002 amp. This is my personal experience.
Every amp has some trade off qualities as nothing is perfect. With the crown I can hear so much more clearly the sound of my front end, source, Dac. The crown doesnt add or take away anything.
From my experience It is all about synergy and less about choosing specific components.
Yes old school crown may have been not the top. But current Gen is killing it. Specifically XLS series. That is crazy. Transparent almost Neutral and More than Decent Noise Floor at Low Gain settings. Trust me Low Gain is all you need for 95% of speakers.
I suppose you might have forgiving, soft and warm sounding speakers, possible 4 ohm ones that other amps just could not drive. Great neutral speakers reveal the weeknesses of a Crown XLS in a second of listening. Great to impress someone with clarity (so as you mention), great soundstage, fast bass, but.. the sound is just dry, to my taste. And I tried it with a great sounding tube preamp too - did not help much. All the instruments sound clear but are small, there is no meat and body to the music, and, worst of all, the listening gets fatigueing very quickly, like within minutes. But! (another but).. Take a class AB professional PA amp, those weighing some 30 kilos (60 pounds), and they can truly sound gorgeous, if combined with a great preamp and great speakers, of course. Cheers, and hope this helped anyone with their decision.
@@monkeypunkerthanks to put in words this feelings that many have doubts about. on the other hand, some of us ara wanting fast everything and not a real drummer playing on our room. sound with pressure tends to be more controlled, more able to handle the human x machine factor. if you want to dance, the audiophile amp will show the failure of the drummer, the lack of velocity of the bass amplifier, the bad mastering, the bad mixing, etc. How about music being mastered on pro audio instead of audiophile discussion?
Every time I am watching one of your interesting and helpful videos I am enjoying the finale credits. It feels like the golden 80s. Thank you for your videos! Greetings from Germany
Fair enough, sorta. I have a system made of pro speaker drivers, pro amps and preamp, acoustics by me (speaker design and build and room acoustics), the goal was to get a sound I like more than that of audiophile gear (that over smooths and sweetens the crap out of stuff until only 5% of recordings sound good with it) if possible, to get greater dynamics and musicality. I did this experiment on a low budget, $1500 for amps and speakers (not including preamp). Doing this project I learned a ton. One major thing I learned is that if you treat pro gear like it’s hiring gear... proper cables and power cords, great speaker acoustic design, room acoustics, resonance and vibration elimination, the works, and if you do it well... you’ll be blown away how good low priced but reputable pro gear can be. I can back from capital audiofess a few years ago, long before this rig was decent or sorted, and doing a direct comparison to the insanely priced gift gear... I was more than pleased with my frankinbuild. The system is fully sorted now and is the single most musical setup I can recall listening to. It is very transparent and totally honest, it plays what you feed it and does not embellish or artificially sweeten. About 99% of what I’ve played through it sounds great, take crappy old recordings, it presents them in a way that does not shin an artificially harsh light on the recording but does let you hear what they people who made it heard, as in you can easily identify with the good music in the antique recording and not be dragged down by the blemishes. Play something modern and super well recorded and it lets all of that through in fine style. It played effortlessly to over 110 db all day long if you could stand that, plays quietly nicely. All around addictive stuff. I have high with bowers and Wilkins speakers and it took me 14 years and massive acoustics treatments and just insane and expensive effort to make that setup sound -not completely shitty as in the worst most frustrating system ever- I mean, sure, after 4.5 years of extensive acoustics studies and endless experiments and such it now sounds very good in most aspects, it’s musical and sweet and etc. and if I go In my workshop/art studio and turn on the pro rig... after one track I pretty much forget about the b&w system. So for sure there are a few points of the hifi sound that are nice, but for me that is not actually necessarily indicative of what I think is most important in sound. And I’ll guarantee you there is pro gear that is top of the heap regardless of classification. The key is for one to dig deep inside and identify what really floats your boat with sound and make that system. If you like smoothed out sanitized sound, go for crap hifi, if you like less,flavored go for a 599k$ hifi... but there are those of us who want something else, something properly used pro gear can deliver. My 2¢
I agree, I have an RME dac, feeding a Crown XLi2500 amp. I've messed around with several speakers and the dac/amp combo is very transparent and neutral. I really love it with blues. I've always used receivers in the past and the always color the sound. I bought the dac to get the cleanest sound I could, the XLi2500 is AB and as far as my ears can tell ads nothing to the sound but the power my big speakers need. My measuring equipment is my ears and I love the sound (or lack of sound) from my pro gear. My dac is the RME ADI 2 Fs, so technically it isn't the pro version. They just took out some unneeded features in the Hi Fi model.
What amps have u used ? I'm considering buying a crest CA6 but don't know much about it's sound caracter
@@stanislasflipo7214 in this system I use a drivecore crown amp for the 18” woofers and class a/b crown amp for the mains. Not the best amps in the world… actually at the low end of the (decent) pro audio world… so… I really don’t have a vast experience with different amps, so no way I can recommend them on any level. Your better off talking to people with the right experience. Cheers.
My experience with pro gear has been a hit and miss game with pro speakers and amps in the latter over the years. On the other hand I purchased a Tascam cd-rw900sl pro cd player and recorder a few years ago. Overall it sounds pretty good and its operating features are like the reel to reel I used to own decades ago. It is not as refined as my classic Pioneer Pd 65 or my current Rotel cd14 mk2. It also doesn't have the weight of the other aforementioned units but it is a very sturdy, rigid, and good sounding cd player. This cd player/recorder is superior to those players I had in the 80's and early 90's and will last for many years!
Despite the slight to marginal audio difference, it is mostly a cost factor. Most pro amps are built in huge numbers which drives the cost down and hence tons of them get sold. Audiophile amps are built in low numbers a likely by hand, this raises the cost plus add in exoteric parts and a sky high profit margin to help keep said company afloat and you get an expensive amp that only sounds 5 to 10% better at best (versus a good pro amp, not a cheap one). Sound is of course subjective, so if you base sound purely on specifications, most amplifiers perform well. What makes a good amplifier sound better, first its reactance to the load it is driving, its slew rate, IMD, dampening factor and power reserves (dynamic headroom). Bi-polar, MOS-FET, push-pull, darlington, cascaded pairs, whatever, they all have a sound but like a microphone preamp they contribute only a small amount to the sound. Class A, A/B, D, etc. also have become blurred as each technology has almost achieved the pinnacle of its design. Your speakers matter more for sound (and your room) than anything else, bar none. Replace the amplifier with 2 other good designs and the change in sound is barely noticeable, I would blind test anyone on this. Do not talk about interconnects, speaker cables, IOS-pucks, power conditioners (although a balanced transformer is a good thing) or even the source as major contributors, they are not
People want to be unique (most of them except commies). When anybody can compare "reactance to the load it is driving, its slew rate, IMD, dampening factor and power reserves" (100% true selection of parameters, with my respect) objectively, no room for "hidden knowledge" remains. When a salesman (or a "reviewer") tells about a woodoo in Audiophilish, everyone supposes that only he/she translates this correct, and this makes him/her unique.
But sometimes, craftmen crack a problem, and there is no any pro product that can offer the same. Like Van der Hul's or ZYX cartridges for example =)
After that they can sell any pro stuff for a high price, signed. I think this is a history of most of pro companies.
As a Sound Engineer in the commercial audio space I can agree that most Crown amps do sound different and weird, but that doesn't mean that they are commercial audio standards for the whole industry. The Crown XLS is Crown's most basic and lowest quality amplifier they sell with a price point from $340 to $650 Crown has other amplifiers like the Crown XTi 2 Series, Crown I-Tech HD Series and Macro-Tech i Series these amplifiers are worlds apart and sound excellent can go from $650 to $10,000. Crown makes amplifiers at different price points. Price doesn't always translate to quality in hi-fi and pro audio/commercial alike. At the end, it’s still audio technology with different applications.
Let’s be real, Crown isn't the only one manufacturer there is. There are other amplifier manufacturers that sound more pleasing and natural/neutral sounding than Crown. Like QSC, Powersoft, Lab Greppen, L acoustics, Crest Audio, MC2 Audio, Dynacord, Peavey, EV, etc.
I had heard misinformation that Commercial Audio amplifiers do not have the same level of circuitry components in Home HI-FI amplifiers which is not true and pretty far from it.
Commercial Audio and Hi-Fi are just marketing terms, because Commercial audio is also Hi-Fi or High fidelity (often shortened to hi-fi or hifi) is a term used by listeners, audiophiles, and home audio enthusiasts to refer to high-quality reproduction of sound. Ideally, high-fidelity equipment has inaudible noise and distortion, and a flat (neutral, uncolored) frequency response within the human hearing range. Commercial Audio equipment can also do this too.
Now speakers are for another topic, but to keep it short Commercial Audio does have amazing speakers for sound reproduction.
Sound engineers sometimes really do know exceptional sound. It kept Tim De Pavaracini in enough cash to keep a very high end audio company going. Some recordings are crap becsuse of it and we do have evidence. One thing about recording. You will be long remembered by the evidence you leave.
@@bruce8429 So true
To JPH! You are very correct with MC2 Built in Devon(Honiton I think or were) Though Paul is a very knowledgeable guy he can't possibly know the internals of so many amps. Back in the late 90s chameleon of formerly Hill audio sounded cracking...tended to overheat though(1unit) high Of A\B design
@@ssgeek4515 Any idea what happened to Opus? Their Amplifiers and Speakers used to be phenomenal...seems the company no longer exists.
@@ssgeek4515 MC2, beautiful amplifiers. I'm pretty sure Ohm amplifiers are actually made by MC2; just a different faceplate. As Plasa a few years ago I ended up listening to MC2 running Ohm speakers, and it sounded glorious.
Back in the 70s-80s, Crown produced the Crown DC300 power amp. It was offered as a high end audio power amp as well as a pro-amp for musicians.
Neil Diamond had stacks of them at his concerts.
One feature of the amp was that it could drive a 70.7 volt distribution line directly.
And what do Neil diamond records and live shows sound like🤔 SHIT!
@@travisbishop7212 bullshit
The 300a was laboratory dc power amp not a Audio amp at the factory school taught to me that made a point o This only two of they units were built lab instrument standards the other was the M600 I serviced all of there lines and most I didn’t think were real hifi but the reference was all were well built to a Given purpose
@@travisbishop7212
Actually the Neil Diamond concert was excellent. The venue (12,000 seat basketball arena) had bad acoustics but the sound was fine.
And was used in nearly every studio in the world for some of the best audio engineering ever done.
Hey Paul you are right on one point. The final test is how it "sounds" to an educated ear...a music lover. As someone who has been an audiophile for a half century and a musician. I would put my humble Douk P1 going into a Behringer A500 Reference Amp driving upgraded Kipsch Belles with Klipsh subs and put it up against anything I have heard in the "upscale" listening rooms.....and I have. Do not dismiss the "damn I just spent $100K so I must have the best" reflex in human psychology.
Pro amps (if quiet) are perfect for horn speakers, as they are like pro speakers - a good match. Imaging is not paramount with high efficiency horn speakers - they are very “forward” In their presentation and not subtle at all. The real test would come with something low efficiency with great definition and transparency like Magnepans or Totems, where imaging and tone is everything.
No
@@racesla well said
Class A amps sound better to me and that is the only topology i choose to own (Luxman and some Chifi Class A amps). Paul has various excuses to sell his high profit margin class D crap. In spite of his bragging, the stuff he sells sounds no better than pro amps. But, he has positioned himself to cater to the crowd that prides itself on audiophool brand name snobbery. That's all that matters to sell things, i suppose. PS audio crap amps can't even remotely stand up to the Luxman, Jungson, Shengya, etc in build quality and sound quality. That is just the way it is and the way it always will be.
You like the behringer A500? My home studio is mainly behringer, and I have my eye on that sucker.
Paul, im going to respectfully disagree with your comment on putting a Crown in an Audiophile room... well i just did... Mine...
coincidentally you put out this topic... i ordered an XLS2002 from Amazon just for -hits and giggles... to compare vs my MC602 and Emotiva XPA DR2... I have been AB testing for 3 days straight... Every time my ears go to the Crown... thats all i have to say with that... I have much respect for Paul and PS audio, however i really believe your team should benchmark the XLS Drivecore2 series, disect it for what its worth and understand why people are loving this amp for the money... aside from anesthetics, its sound quality blows amps 10x its price out of the water.....
This has been my experience also. Xls2002 is an amazing amp. It is the only component in my system that I wont change. I use mine with a tube pre and its awesome.
It just goes to show how much BS is out there in this industry.
Another example. Over the last year I have been on the hunt for the perfect Dac under £1k. I owned a chord 2qute and was very happy with it but was curious to see what else was out there, So I bought a qutest. The sound was too soft, rolled off top end, it was like someone had cut off the balls off my dac. I gave up on the qutest and bought a RMe adi2, it was a good all rounder but had no magic. For a laugh I bought back the 2qute and A/B against the RME. The 2qute is amazing, it sounds like ‘real’ music. The adi2 is good but sounds like equipment / Dac. Im keeping the 2qute lol
I would have saved a lot of money if I didnt pay attention to these fake reviews. how can an old version sound better than the new version. In my system and with my ears, it does.
Over the last few years reviewers have forgotten about the 2qute it gets no mention, its as if the 2qute isnt worthy anymore. However the qutest and rmeadi2 are the best thing since sliced bread. In my opinion they are not. Im not going down this rabbit whole again. 🤨
I have no experience but it is undeniable that the XLSxxx2 series has a great following among audiophiles.
Nothing to be ashamed about. The masses prefer McDonalds. They didn't get to be the biggest restaurant chain in the world by making low quality, cheap food.
I need to hear those amplifier differences to believe it. My crown xls sounds perfect at home in a stereo setup.
hearing is beleaving, i just bought an XLS2002 for fun thinking i was going to return it... but after comparing to my MC602 and XPA DR2... im keeping it... it blows my mind how good the Crown sounds... and at 11lbs its 10% the weight of my other two amps... audio snobs need to get their heads out of their asses and try the Crown XlS... its getting positive reviews from audiophiles on the net
I’ve got a crown xls2502 powering some subs and two PS Audio m700 monoblocks powering my magnepan 3.7i’s. For fun I swapped power to my mains and did direct a/b comparison. The M700’s definitely sounded better in all cases, but no it was not night/day difference.
@@MattWong117 was it 10x the cost difference?
@@SantanKGhey1234 that’s hard to answer because everyone is going to have different equations in comparing value for money. For me the difference was worth it and I love the sound of the m700’s or I would’ve sold them. For someone just starting out with a limited budget the calculation would be different I think. It is possible to build a musically satisfying system without spending a ton of money, that’s for sure.
@@MattWong117 if I'm reading that right, you've got a single xls2502 comparing against two m700 monoblocks? Do yourself a favor and get a second xls2502 and then do an a/b comparison. Mono vs mono. The crowns have poor crosstalk performance. Using them in a mono configuration might be that difference you're missing. I, myself, have the 1502s for biamping my speakers and i absolutely love them.
I have used Class A, Class A/B, Class D amps. I have used Luxman, Marantz, Cambridge, Denon, Sony ES, Dynaco, Toshiba, Crown Amplifiers. My go to amp now is a Crown XLS Class D amplifier. I still have other amps, but nothing sounds any better to me. I started using it to drive my Martin Logan Sequel ll speakers four years ago. Very happy.
Hmm Paul. I love your series. This is the first one that made me cringe :-) But it’s ok - this was shot too close to your heart. I think this question deserves a double take with some serious thinking. One thing I’d love to hear you explain is - how come we are always chasing that live show experience with our hifi equipment - and what we are trying to recreate is the sound coming from these pro gear.
Running Crown Drivecore XLS. They sound fantastic!
Before I can discuss my feelings about “Professional “ amplification I need to go back in time to explain my evolution through Audio. Back at one of the earliest Audio Shows(about 28 years ago)in Los Angeles where Krell and Apogee were paired together; I had yet to actually enter the Building but could hear and feel what I could only describe as a seismic subterranean bass event like nothing I had ever experienced before! Upon entering the building I followed the sound and energy to the room where I beheld the Krell amplifiers in all of their glory, and flanked on either side was the mighty Apogee Scintilla speakers. Now what was surreal was the fact that I was hearing and feeling the music clearly in the distant parking lot, but as I stood in front of these speakers it was if the sound was emanating from them but I put my ears up to them and it wasn’t loud. How could this be? Anyway, it was at that moment I decided that I could never afford the likes of this level of Audio gear. But I took a mental picture and decided that this was the best I had ever heard music being reproduced. Committed myself to somehow achieve this level of sound in my own home one day. After not 10 or 20 years, but nearly 30 years!
Trying different amplifiers, pre-amplifiers, speakers, sources etc… I evolved my system into something that is more than I could ever imagine.
No, I don’t have any High End Audio gear that one would assume is required to achieve such sonic bliss. What I did do is go outside the “proverbial “ box to create my own version of being “Surrounded by sound “. No I don’t use a Surround receiver (not that there’s anything wrong with that ) I in essence use two P.S. Audio PCA -2 Preamplifiers with 2 HCPS (High Current Power Supply) One is is in the front where my Source a Modified
Marantz SA-11S2 is my SACD/CD player. I run a loop from the PCA-2 in the front to the PCA-2 in the rear. 2 Crown XLS 2502 amplifiers in the front drive in parallel 3 pairs of speakers 1 pair of JBL MRX 515 , 1 pair of Klipsch Quartet, and 1 pair of EAP 15” mains stacked, and a Acoustech PL28 center channel speaker with 2 Acoustech HT-65 side speakers. 2 HSU ULS 15 powered subwoofers. The rear speakers are a pair of Klipsch Chorus 2’s with a pair of Behringer 1520 15” ‘s on top and a pair of 12” KLH Rave speakers on top, a JBL LC2 center speaker and a Acoustech HT-85 center on top of the JBL LC2. 1 Velodyne 15” powered subwoofer and a 12”HSU powered subwoofer. The amplifiers in the rear are 1Crown K2(this is arguably one of Crowns finest vintage achievements) and 1 Crown XLS 2502 both are running in parallel . Yes that’s 16 speakers ( all 15” woofers, except 2 12” woofers in the KLH , and the 10” woofers in the Quartets; and 4 powered subwoofers (3 ea. 15”, and 1 ea. 12”) The center speakers are 8” while the side speakers are 6.5” . All are horn speakers, except the KLH. An interesting observation I learned from the parallel setup, is that although 3 different pairs of speakers are connected together, they sound as ONE single unit. What is obvious is of course the headroom! But more significant is the fact that at the minimum setting, every single detail of the music material is clearly represented with clarity and depth that simply must be heard to appreciate. The term “SYNERGY” is what it’s all about. Every instrument sounds like it is supposed to sound like, it’s full size and scale. Because the music is from about 10hz-20khz the full music spectrum is covered without any effort whatsoever. I have known friends that have systems that are $$$$ with all the familiar names, and yet this compilation of gear I have assembled, has never disappointed in the degree of musical reproduction. Before I played any music, of course they were expecting some loud P.A. Auditorium Type of experience, but the look on their faces was confirmation of what I had already experienced. Music completely fills the entire room like a jello mold, I want for nothing else! I am so blessed to enjoy music this much! The Marantz player has resurrected discs that before were poorly recorded or mastered, it somehow makes them sound better than ever! A good source is critical in the Audio chain, as is a clean preamplifier! I once upon a time dreamed of having Infinty IRS V speakers back when I heard them properly set up. But then I woke up! This hodgepodge of speakers is my “poor man’s “ effort to attempt to approach the way the IRS v’s fill the room from top to bottom. I’m not going say that actually achieved this like the IRS V’s, but, I somehow managed to exceed all of my expectations! I call it a huge WIN!
If I would share one thing, it would simply be to enjoy your music! What sounds good to you enjoy it! Don’t let anyone else tell you what you should buy or enjoy. Music is a personal experience and we all hear differently, so don’t let anyone try to shame you for what you own. This is partly why High End Audio stores are all but gone save a few in many cities. I’m just an old Disabled Veteran who loves music, and believes everyone deserves to enjoy music the way they like it. How many times do I remember being told in an Audio Store, after the salesman would ask me “what do you own right now “? And when I would tell him what a simple system I had, he would respond with…” you can’t possibly enjoy music listening to that crap(expletive)! And continue to verbally shame me, fully expecting me to respond like a helpless child, and say “please show me what I need to buy to enjoy music!) Nothing of the sort ever entered my mind! I instead would of course just chuckle and leave the store. The arrogance and snobbery I have experienced is truly sad. Meanwhile, some of my friends who are very wealthy would buy and sell/trade their gear like every 6 months or so. What baffled me was how much money they spent and lost when trading equipment only to never be satisfied. Go figure…
Ultimately I realized that they somehow forgot how to just listen to the music, analyzing every single possible aspect, from A to Z, instead of simply being present and listening to the music, instead of being enamored with the glitzy lights and precious metals that some of the speakers and equipment was constructed from. If you spend $100k on amplifiers and they sound good, well… I hope so! It dang sure better for that price! Most “Audiophiles” when faced with two different amplifiers , speakers etc, will ultimately choose what “looks” the coolest. If you don’t believe that just ask yourself why McIntosh is so popular (surely not because of the blue meters! lol) I have never been a fan, but I am happy for those who do love them. It’s worth noting that in most used markets, McIntosh is usually more present than anything else. So perhaps many people after owning them for a while are not satisfied enough to keep them either. I remember more than a few times, when in a Audio Salon listening to a customer tell the salesman point blank, “I know the Parasound (or whatever) sounds better than the McIntosh, but I want the McIntosh because it just looks better. To each his or her own, I can really care less about the looks of something that is in the Audio chain, so long as it delivers the sound I love! In fact I would be more bothered by something that looks great but sounded awful. But again, that’s just me.
But what I find tragic is when people repeatedly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment and it fails to satisfy them. For me, the silver lining is when you spend a fraction of money $ for everything and it surpasses all of your expectations! That’s the best! I feel like when you are creating a new dish in the kitchen, your creativity runs wild and often you make something that is just out of this world with flavor, like a party in your mouth!
With all of the Audio gear available Consumer and Professional, there are many different ways to achieve amazing musical fidelity that can be incredibly rewarding. You just have to try different combinations until you get the sound you enjoy. It’s fun, or at least it should be right? Then you can just Enjoy Your Music! I sure do! I LOVE Music!
Paul this whole conversation sounds a little outdated. You can buy a 350w×2 crown amp for $350 and you can also buy a 1000×4 $11,000 crown amp. One is used for small dj setups and one is used for large 20,000+ live applications. Where they fly 12-14 speakers per side. Yes there durable as hell but one is built to sound ok and one is built to sound to great. I mean when we talk about being in a room where the speakers disappear and you can pinpoint where the artists is and where the vocalist is. This is our reference. Were referring to hearing the artist in a live setting. Not all audiophiles listen to jazz singers in a lounge setting some of us listen to large concerts in a venue like madison square garden or an outdoor venue of 20,000+ people. Sure it would cost you 20 million dollars to recreate that expirence at home with giant double 21" subwoofers and 24 speakers hanging from your living room ceiling. But I contend that a good crown amp sounds great for it application. They don't generally make 4000 watt audiophile grade amplifiers because they simply arnt nessesary and a crown amp in your living room wouldn't be practical and dosent look as pretty but I belive the crown sounds just fine for audiophile applications. I mean how closely are you listening to your music? Are you enjoying it or are you dissecting it? But again if your recreating the live sound event your recreating the sound of a crown amp in the first place so why wouldn't the original sound just as good if not better than the recreated sound?
Exactly this, add in the need for 3-phase power in your living room to boot! The high end amps from Crown, L'Acoustics, d&b etc. are every bit as costly as esoteric domestic products too.
This!
this person paul is generalizing this comparison.. we know the PA amps weren't designed for home audio ..the question was hoe did the sound compare? and you can't do that hypothetically you have to listen to them both under the same circumstances ..that's what the people who are turning on to type D or A/b commercial amps are talking about .. they are not noticing a double the price tag difference.
The newer class D Crown XLS series power amplifiers get really good reviews from several popular youtube audiophiles. I have the XLS 1002 and feed it with a low cost Behringer MIC2200 two channel single tube preamp. They power two pair of Pioneer andrew jones speakers wired in parallel, and for a low budget system ($700) it plays loud and has juicy tube harmonics.
Class D in no longer faux-pas in High-End. Look at NADs M33
i use the 1002 as well, i found it had a noise floor but then i realized it was my pre amp stage that was cheap and USB and was amping up the noise. once i went direct to the crown the noise floor dropped and it sound incredible. not thin at all. so i would say it sounds much more full than any sub 1000 home theatre amp and im not sure how far up the ladder it goes but its the best ive heard. and i can shake the walls without even using half power on big towers. it should scare high end amp producers how effortless and clean the new crowns are and the 1002 isnt even the newest
This is one of your best videos Paul. This explanation was/is badly needed in our industry and hobby. Engineers design and work toward a specific goal or set of goals. The hierarchy of requirements determines what tradeoffs are made in the design process. Both amplifiers are good amplifiers and the engineers may be equally qualified to do their job, but the criteria in the projects (amplifiers) goals are different enough that the final products are focused on two different customers. You should feel empowered to share this message often.
Don't know why Paul would compare a multi year old Crown amp as opposed to a recent model when talking about all this. Why focus on an old Crown amp? Humm!😏 An old Crown is not a new Crown amp by any stretch!🤯🤯🤔🤔🤫
You know some audiophiles listen to large concerts. We go to Madison square garden to hear performances. These venues use crown amps. And try to recreate that expirence at home. We spent $1000's to bring that into our home on a smaller scale. Be were trying to recreate the sound of a crown amp. It dosent make sense that a crown amp wouldn't be able to recreate that sound. I'm not talking about a $350 crown amp I'm talking about there flagship touring amp. That's the sound we heard at the show and the sound we wanna hear at home. I don't see how paul can claim that those amps won't sound fine in you home setup mabey a little overkill but it would work just fine as it has the exact sound signature as the original recording. Now if you wanna get into room size and processing that's a different story. But as for the sound of the amp I think paul's a little outdated when he brings up a 40 yr old crown as apposed to a new ps audio or a mac or a krell
@@jamband4230 Agree!
@@jamband4230 btw which crown amp is the best?
@@filippiasec 4×3500hd it's there flagship touring amp weighs only 30lbs and packed with processing and it's 1000w×4 @4ohms they run about 12 grand a piece. I mean everything has its place and a lot of that cost might be put into networking and processing for large arrays but this would be a great solution for bi amping a pair of nice home speakers if you were so inclined to do so and you had a pair that could handle the power. You don't have to use there processing or networking capabilities they have an app where you can adjust all of those capabilities it turn them off completely. And I'm 99% sure they still make these amps in the US. They're low end "pro" line is made in china but this is the harmon company that makes there jbl line array speakers for large venues
@@jamband4230 Thanks for info! Will see this one:) Regarding handling the power: I have my crown xls 1500 in bridge mode (1050w) connected to a Tannoy XT C centre speaker, which is probably rated up to 100w. I don't think power is a problem, as long as you keep everything on reasonable listening volume:)
You just took me on a trip down memory lane. Back around 1988 I bought a used Amcron (Crown) SL-1 preamp and it wasn't great until my tech friend did a small power supply mod and changed out some OP amps. After those mods it was actually a pretty nice preamp. It has been too long for me to remember the part numbers that were pulled out and replaced but I agree early Op amps were awful.
What opamps before and after ?
I have noticed while touring high end listening rooms and checking out speaker rooms that there is definitely a place and distinct purpose for a high end tube, or non tube amp. Especially something that has insane accuracy in its ability to change amplitude the exact way the engineers and designers wanted. But also, in one of the tours that I took and got to see a Live Sound Speaker/Amp design room, 50ft long 35 feet wide and 30ft tall. With proper acoustic control and reinforcement, there was 2 crown XTi4002 each in bridged mono, one paying the left and channel, and the other playing the right channel, and it was powering like 8 L Acoustic k3 speakers per amp. Some of the most incredible audio quality I've even experienced and the experience was actually FEELING the audio, not just the bass frequencies being felt inside the blood, you could feel the mid and high frequencies tickling and the volume on the SPL meter for the room was 93 DbFS. Like dude, come on... I have never had a listening experience that incredible even in a $100k listening room. Pro commercial amps are starting to get pretty damn good at quality.
As a sound engineer installer in my past over the years of doing upgrades I have found economically for a lot of my customers it wasn’t necessarily the inexpensive amp they used as it was the crappy speakers they had 75% of the time I would just put in at that time I was a bag end dealer a set of new speakers and it made a world of difference. It was not the absolute best option but it was the option that fit their budget. My motto is if you’ve made it sound a little better you’ve made life a little better
There are a few pro audio manufacturers that would match a audiophile amp like Lab Gruppen(swiss I think) but with a big price tag and enormous wattage .Merry Christmas to you sir!!
Guarantee my qsc rmx 1850HD would blow the doors off of just about anything lmao, it certainly does rated power and then some...
QSC RMX1450a - Class AB, 300 WPC, Toroidal Transformers, balanced inputs, $700 Street price
I started with Behringer a500's in my home theater system and later Crown class D and then Crown Class A/B amps. I listen to music and SACD's on this system as well. The Crown 1502's I really tried to like. I patted myself on the back for how much money i was saving. They had gobs of power but something was off. One day I swapped a class A/B Crown into the system I had here and it was definitely better so went the full class A/b route and sold the 1502's. Never really happy though.
I got tired of turning the amps on and off. ( Well mostly my wife did. ) so i looked at consumer amps with a 12v trigger. Found a used Parasound A51 and everything changed. Sounded infinitely better the instant I put this amp in the system.
The class D Crown 1502's were definitely the worst sounding amps i ever had here. Can't put my finger on as to exactly why either. i read somewhere that a user described them as "Uninvolving" and I agree with that sediment. They went loud but with no warmth and were one dimensional. I changed speakers like 3 times since i had this in the system along with cables and didn't realize what the problem was.
Luckily sold it really quickly with not too bad of a hit.
Point taken, but I have some 10 inch dual voice coil Volfenhagen speakers for stage use 2000watt 2ohm. It takes 2 xl 1500 crown amps to satisfy 30 pound magnets. Sounds good outdoors, but don't use indoor they pull on the sheet rock nails and break glass!🤣
I'll put my old Crown K2 up against a comparable priced "high end" amp. Paul actually gave zero information as to why the high end was better. Pretty lame actually.
Strange... I thought he answered the question perfectly. You use the term "better" loosely. He actually stated that a pro amp is better at ruggedness & reliability. What more do you want from him?
I have spent 20 years using Crown, QSC and other pro amps. I am also an audiophile and over the years owning dozens of makes. The pro amp has to stand up to a lot of abuse on the road. It gets bumped and driven hard. They all have fans to cool the insides. The design also needs to provide high power output.
Audiophile amps are much lower in power since most only have to cover a living room. My pro amps range from 300 watts per channel up to 1000. My audiophile amps run from 50 to 200 watts. The audiophile amps need to run quieter. Audiophile amps need good stereo imagining and need to provide depth and dynamic range to the music.
So we are talking about different goal so you get different amplifiers. Ditto with speakers.
The ear test is what matters to me. I'd go with a $400 Emotiva A-300 over an XLS but it is what you think that matters. I think the $110 SMSL Sanskrit Mk 2 sounds better than the $250 Schiit Modi Multibit so I bought it. It blew my mind.
Schiit's $250 plays in the same league where SMSL does. Price always says more than a label. So, there is nothing special. But at the same time with the other models Schiit offers something that SMSL will never do. I've investigated their photos, and I like what I see inside. I understand how such high price is calculated. It has reasons.
But if you take a look inside LampizatOr Amber 3, its price as of $3900 is an absolute FRAUD! Because what I see inside, is $20 Amanero from eBay (without a galvanic isolation), no sample refiner, one(!) ES DAC (I'm not sure it is 9038Pro, may be just 9028), no good low-noise power, $10 bluetooth from eBay, capacitor output, and 4 cheap tubes $80 max. But they have purchased some good reviewers though...
Thanks. Wish you a happy Christmas and a happy new year.
I bought a used 15 year old Crown I-tech 6000 on E-Bay it was there top line touring amp when new and would not have been cheap when new, I use it in my dedicated music only listening room . I control it with a Rotel RC-1590 pre amp. I am very happy with the sound quality but I mostly listen to 70's 80's pop and hard rock. I cannot comment about the cheaper line XLS and xti series and other makes I have not tried.
What I can say is these are high quality rugged amps that can be dropped from 6ft and still work, they are readily available used from around $1000USD upwards depending on age ,model .condition and hours. They have massive power output 1500watts@ 8 ohms and doubles into 4 ohms just in stereo mode [for the 6000] more than some of the most expensive hi fi mono blocks. They can drive heavy loads below 2 ohms. The I- Tech model is made in the USA is light weight 28lbs has banana plugs outputs and XLR inputs. There are lots of useful things on the display such as hours used ,input sensitivity gain even voltage movement like on a power generator. It can be used anywhere in the world with 120-240 volt just change the power cable plug no converter or mods required .By there very industry standard they work in the they have to sound good and be reliable.
They only down side I can see for home use is the fans are on almost all the time but that does not worry me as I play medium to loud so I don't here them. To me the I-Tech 's are top shelf amps that are great value on the used market if you can find a good one and have similar tastes in music to me. I have heard they can be expensive to repair if they do fail.
It would be great to see one of the UA-cam audiophile expert's do a comparison with hi end consumer amp with a top line pro amp of any brand. I am not suggesting it would sound as good or high end as a PS audio BHK or Krel just that the better pro amps can sound great and offer great value for money on the used market and may be relative for some people to consider in home use.
By the way I am sure the 20 or so capacitor's in the i-tech are decent quality.
I have worked on electronic equipment for over forty years and as far as caps go they are one of the most reliable components in the circuitry if they are matched to the application. These people that have a good amp and then believe this baloney about replacing caps for better sound usually end up screwing up and damaging other components. IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T MUK WITH IT ! I worked on a sound system in a club and those pro amps would pull so much current from the mains that the lights would dim with the bass notes. Just because you can't afford to spend five grand for an amp doesn't mean you can't have great sound. In that club we generated so much sound pressure that you could take an empty beer bottle and feel the air being pushed out by the low end woofers.
Paul, you should listen to some amps from MC2 audio. That's proper pro amps with high-end sound! MC2 was founded by Terry Clark and Ian Mccarthy, out Klark Technique. Proper sound guys!
There was a few years that crown was considered a high-end audio amplifier even though it was built like a solid block of steel. I never liked the sound but a lot of people did.
Respectfully, gonna have to disagree on this one. Crown XLS drivecore 2 sound every bit as good (and better in some cases) as my Emotiva amps. You might argue that Emotiva isn't high end. That's fair.
In my application, I'm using the amps in Y mode, with the built in active crossovers, to bi amp my custom built speakers. With this, they behave like monoblocks. Imaging is fantastic, soundstage is huge, tone is spot on, rich and full, detail is precise. The speakers just disappear.
True, drivecore ones are diffrent then the old stuff.
Well you gotta give Paul credit for not burying this question and actually taking it on which tells me he really believes in what he saying (whether true or not). #Respect
I agree with your comment... i have been A-B comparing my Emotiva XPA DR2 vs. MC602 vs Crown XLS2002... i bought the Crown off Amazon just for -hits and giggles... and honestly im not laughing rather my mind is blown.... the XLS Drivecore2 amps can be put in an Audiophile room... Like mine... im keeping it... i respect Paul and PS audio, but they really need to take Crown seriously to see what their doing right...
I think emotiva is not good amp, and it cheap too. You can have try with Naim, Grypon, Hegel, McIntosh, Octave amp you will see big difference special if you pick highest model. The sound also depend on your CDP/DAC + your Speaker. If those are not good enough you change amp also can hear munch different
@@speakertest5413 the Fully balanced differential amps from Emotiva are excellent, 1/4 the price of my McIntosh MC602... Solid build quality... Its very dynamic, just a tad neutral vs my McIntosh... I run everything Balanced XLR... streaming Tidal and MQA... when i bring in the Crown there's something very impressive with it's sound... performance to value its outstanding
Superb video and thanks! I hate it so much when I see people doing "dyno tests" on amplifiers only to state that they don't care how they sound... It's almost the same thing. Talking about my current issue - car audio, because the home is covered (LOL). Very hard to find a "musical" set-up for a vehicle, one which does not sound like running away from something... Merry Christmas!
It's different worlds. I have been to tons of concerts over the years. The venue for acoustics can be terrible even with the best equipment, the singer or band can have an off night or be sick, the engineer setting the sound board for the concert can suck. It's like a great chef can take mediocre ingredients and make them taste amazing. An ok chef can take amazing ingredients, screw up, and still be good. Half the people at concerts are drunk out of their mind and tone deaf when it comes to how sound should be. They just see the artist and dance around drunk. I have heard concerts that were incredible and others with a great singer just okay because of other factors.
I love my Crown PS-200. The older ones can certainly be upgraded with better components.
Try the crown 2502,fore the price it's dang good. Beats the hell out of my Denon amp that cost 4times more.
There’s an exception, Crown is awesome for powering a home theater or home music system’s passive sub.
There are lots of great pro amps, Crown, QSC, Yamaha to name a few, use your ears, more money doesn't always mean better sound.
@@poserwannabe1 Paul probably can't remember the last time he heard a Crown amp and is honestly not a good source for giving advice on how one sounds. Not that he's not a knowledgable person, but sometimes experts can be a little misleading to the average consumer because they are so deep into their own products they tend to be out of the loop somewhat when it comes to other brands. The pro audio field makes constant advances just like the "high end audio" field does.
@@edjackson4389
You sir are exactly right !!
Doing just that and love the clean head room my mono blocked (900 watt) Crown delivers...
@@poserwannabe1 QSC 1450a ---- 300 watts @ 8 ohms / two. A 6-year warranty. And it sounds terrific.
C'mon Paul, we are going through the same sales pitch as the power cables. Biiiiiggggg power cables that the consumer pays and really they do not measure any different than the average power cable that come with the unit... example, Monster Cables what they do not tell upi is the fundred od chip Romex inside the walls. a 5F of "special," cable is going to make a difference when you have all those 100's of feet of ordinary cable in the walls Snake oil. Same as component in the amps. There are components very expensive and there are Components with the exact characteristics and equal measurements that can be substitutes for.
Yes some of the inexpensive components nay fail sooner. However as the technology advances the it is more and more unlikely. I examined amplifiers and radios from the 20s' with much lower technology and relatively inexpensive at the time of purchase that still working after all these years. So, another Snake oil.
@Lloyd Stout Ok, then re battle your position and explain yourself on your position. I am interested. I explain it from an engineering point of view. Capacitance, resistance, semiconductors and every component in a system has unit of erotic stories and standards of measuring. Even the spikers alone.
Good to know that more expensive capacitor sounds a way better than a "cheap" one? What about the resistors? And what about the internal board soldering? This channel is great - you learn something new every day that trashes-out many stuff one learn going towards the Electronic Eng. degree. A world of "hi-end" audio manufacturing is amazing place...
You forgot the $500,000 an ounce fairy dust that gets sprinkled on the ICs
The major difference between pro amps and high end amps is Paul doesn't get paid for selling amps with a huge company behind it that makes 100-1000X more units so scaling doesnt come down to the consumer in terms of cost..
The great irony with this guy, and indeed many of the "senior audiophiles" on UA-cam, is that males in their age group have long since lost the high frequency hearing necessary to distinguish "audiophile" quality audio from a low quality mp3 downloaded from Napster in the 90's, while teenagers who've yet to suffer any neurosensory hearing loss are perfectly satisfied with their iPhone and AirPods.
That is the dirty secret isn't it? Old guys with deteriorated hearing telling us what sounds best to "their" ears. I'm in the same boat except I realize my hearing is bad. I want nice stuff but I'm not looking for crazy good stuff because I'll never notice the difference.
You are correct Paul, pro amps are not designed for home hifi use but some not all do serve very well in a home hifi set up. I believe this is called a byproduct. If you are on a budget then it can pay off by doing some research. I have a pro amp called Apart Champ 2 driving a pair of Magnepan.7i speakers very well, it even has the word “audiophile” on the front of the amp.😁
I say it depends what the home application is. I personally like to throw parties at home with friends and don't use amps for critical listening of jazz ensembles. I like nice punchy beats and smooth highs. And I like to play late into the night without the amp overheating or shutting down. I run crown xti 1002. Perfect for me.
You probably get too many comments to respond but I am seriously considering getting the Sprout100 ELAC system. I mainly listen to old school hip hop and R&B. My budget and space is limited so this setup seems to fill both check marks. My gut tells me even your budget minded gear has got to be better than anything I have ever heard.
After this video you've just become my favorite UA-cam high end Hi-fi guy. As you say "Musical" sounding is what its about - not electronic measurements.
@PS Audio -- Paul, can't say I fully agree with your views here. Some of the best amps I've heard are the Crown Studio Reference I/II models. Also, their older Macro-Tech 1200 model sounds very good, not least when bridged. Only serious drawback with the 1200's is their build-in fixed rpm fan, which is very noisy. Unless one can hide them away (without blocking their ventilation) they're not recommended in a hi-fi installation, which is a shame given their good sonics. MC² S800/1400, also studio series, are excellent; in fact they'd be a likely choice of mine if I were to buy anew. Crown's K2 amp is great for sub duties (I use it myself), or run up to ~1kHz. Oh well, I still prefer my Belles SA30 pure Class A amp coupled directly to my horn section from ~800Hz on up.
I have a Crown SA-2 "Distinction Series" Amp (which got a nice, small, write up in the May 1980 Issue of High Fidelity). It has a variable speed fan which can be loud (if you were driving very inefficient speakers or a dummy load) at higher power levels, I don't hear it when playing my Klipsch Industrial LaScalas :)
@@SLCVideoProductions Forgot to mention the Studio Ref. I/II also has variable speed fans, as do the MC² Audio S-series, and you'd have to run them pretty hot for the fans to start speeding up. A friend of mine playing occasionally at live levels with heavy-to-drive speakers + subs can set off the fans with his two, bridged Crown Studio Ref. II's, but with the La Scala's, Industrial not least, I can't imagine ever getting those fans spining :)
@@mikaelmllersnnichsen539 The only reason I know the found can get loud was that I purchased a pair of KEF 107's and had to crank the system up a lot to get any decent bass and the fan would go to high speed when I reached a certain level. Then I realized that the KEF's needed re-coning and spent a weekend doing that, but ended up putting the CROWN into my other room with the LaScalas so it will almost never come on high- it always is on low, but pretty un noticeable for the most part.
Well, I put a Behringer A500 (which is essentially a QSC knockoff) into my high end room together with immensely good bookshelf speakers, and it is the best system I have ever heard, bar none. Super musical, the reverb tails and presence is inside the room. Ofcourse there are great and not so great amplifiers, but in my opinion, loudspeakers and their crossover design is what is most important to how the systems sounds as a whole..
If you can, try the A800. Better than the A500 for cheap. Love mine.
@@SilmarilS79 I have tried it, but in my opinion all class D amplifiers are superior in bass/punch, but not comparable to class AB in the mid-to-high frequency area, mainly because the nature of the class D amplifier involves processing the audio signal in unfavorable ways, which the class AB amplifiers does not have to do. In my opinion, the switching noise in class D amps makes them somewhat fatiguing to listen to with linear and true fidelity loudspeakers when they have to tackle complex music/source material. I also tried amps with the well regarded Hypex UCD modules, and I am truly baffled why so many consider these amplifiers to sound good. To me, generally the higher power class D amplifier, the more the switching frequency interference sucks the life out of the music.
Imaging pairing pro electronics with exotic cables and vibration isolation products.
I’m from the concert industry. I can assure you that using the right pro-audio equipment, I can get a room for 3,000 pax to sound better than hifi systems that cost $400k in a room for a few enthusiasts.
We are talking clarity etc. Not volume. But it’s not with Crown amplifiers. You just need L-Acoustic Kara or K2 speaker systems. 😬
Yes ... I do have a high end system myself and not a boom box.
Karas rarely sell for cheap unfortunately
@@AdamHiFi ... uh huh ... but 400k for a few people vs a Kara rig for 3,000. On a per head basis the Kara rig is still cheaper 😈
It’s just that too many hifi enthusiasts do not know that pro-PA can sound amazing. They think the home set up is the ‘bestest’
@@hushpuppykl I can imagine. But then you say the pro stuff is optimized for large venues, not for a cosy living room. So purpose? Or would you be able to outfit a 100 sqr foot room with pro equipment and still sound subtle. A bit like mounting a V8 on a bycicle?
Don't forget the biggest part of the puzzle, which is the guy behind the console.
Now we need a video to justify why for example Wilson audio speakers can cost $300,000. I guess they’re using diamond laminated voice coils or something like that?
There are amps that fall half-way between. Some of the MC2 amps were designed to meet the requirements of both installations / touring and the studio monitoring market, and they sound fantastic and are very at home in a home stereo application. They compare favorably to some fairly well-regarded high-end amplifiers. That said, they're a lot more expensive than the Crown XLS amps that a lot of people are using.
One big downside to almost any pro amp are the cooling fans. The Aforementioned MC2 amps aren't quiet- not like a server, but not great either.
There are a few other Pro manufacturers that have made very nice-sounding amplifiers. I have yet to hear or test a Crown amp that really impressed me. Even the Macro-Tech 3600 that people rave about was, to me at least, overbuilt and unrefined. Good for taking abuse, but not anything I'd want to listen to. Speaking of cooling fans, the 3600 is as loud as a server (and weighs as much as one).
my thought !
Currently using a MC2 E25 with B&W Matrix 802 S3 & honestly I couldn’t be any happier.
If you are using to pro amp to drive vintage speakers or sub woofers, there are pro amps that have RCA inputs, like the Crown XLi series (XLi3500). You are not stuck with XLP connections, so you do not have to use a converter like an Art Cleanbox Pro unless you want to. The XLR cable's primary advantage is the can be ran for long distances without picking up any noise. When you are only dealing with two amps sitting next to each other, a set of high-quality short RCA cables work just as well. My vintage speakers are rated at 350 watts each. I have a 130 watt times 9, high end THX theater amp. But its input power is rated at only 110 VAC @ 650 watts. This is what its power supply is limited to. Do the math, running at 100% efficiency (which is impossible), that's 72 watts per channel. When driving only my vintage speakers, my theater amp does a good job. Kick in the other 7 speakers, then that really nice amp comes up way short. The Anthem STR Power Amplifier, 400 watts times two @ $6500, would drive my vintage speakers fabulously. But compared to the Crown XLi1500, 330 watts times two @ $425, most people would not be able to hear the difference. And if you compare the cost, the Anthem is with out a doubt, a better amp, but it does cost 15.3 times more. I intend to bi-amp my vintage speakers; using the theater amp for the tweeter and mid range, then using a AB class Crown XLi3500 pro-amp to drive the two 15 inch woofers. This way I am using both amps for what they are best at. Crown amps are easy to find used, and much cheaper, but still in great shape. The same is not true for high powered home amps like the Anthem.
Given the choice between focusing my money on amps vs speakers, I would focus on the speakers. The weakest link is when you are transferring acoustic energy to electrical energy (microphone) and transferring it back to acoustic energy (speakers.) That said, I am amazed at how incomplete amplifier specifications are! In the early days of solid state, vacuum tube amps had a much better sound even though the "specs" were worse. It took a long while before the nature of slew induced distortion came to light! Early amps spec'ed out great as long as you ignored what happened when the base current of a transistor was changed too fast causing a burst of noise! Modern amps are way beyond that, but just because the specs look good doesn't mean something is going on that doesn't show up in common specs. (For example, supply cap quality)
cause audiophiles think they’re better than proffesional people.. they didnt realise that they’re music came from a proffesional standard equipements!..
I don't think I'm better, I know I'm better. Ask any self respecting audiophile what the hardest issue to deal with is, and you'll get the same answer over and over. Finding good recordings. Its by far the biggest challenge we face.
"they didn't realize that they’re music came from a professional standard equipment!.." (That's a direct quote, but I took the liberty of fixing all your spelling mistakes.)
Nothing could be further from the truth. We're painfully aware where all this crap comes from. Its the studio people that are not aware of good pro gear like Bryston, Antelope, ATC and many others. If you are going to do this for a living, why not use good equipment?
@@solarfall2728 Better at what exactly? Spending money on audio equipment? Most audiophiles know jack shit about electric engineering nor actual music.
Owning Threshold and Nakamichi amps in the past... My Crown K2 is every bit as good. And silent running. And has a shit ton more headroom. It ain't aesthetic though.
@@TheEchelon You don't have to be an electrical engineer to listen to music or know good sound. That's just a go to excuse "professionals" use to try and win an argument. Its so fundamental you can consider it instinctive. Here's an example. DSOTM is considered worldwide to be an excellent example of a modern, high quality recording. Does someone have to tell you its a good recording? Of course not. All you have to do is listen to it. I've even asked several spec/measurement clowns, that were already in agreement with me on good recordings, if there was some type of measurements that could prove a good recording was a good recording. They didn't see that one coming. Needless to say, I got no answer.
My counter to your statement that "Most audiophiles know jack shit about electric engineering nor actual music.", is simply, neither do the professionals. Given the poor quality of the vast majority of recordings, I don't see how anyone can deny it.
@@solarfall2728 seems like your better than a sound engineer for sure you don’t even know how to mix one mic.. setting gains,gate,compressor limiter and cutting freqs... i know you don’t even know how to do a 4 ways active crossover.. your a just a hobbyist.
You are a gentleman Paul.
I am not surprised to hear that.
Because, this gentleman obviously, never bothered to critically listen an Crown amplifier, nor to peak inside of it.
If he did, he would never embarrassed himself with this video.
PS Audio is all about marketing, Crown is all about science.
Take your pick!
My hifi system, as well as my home studio will always be a combination of high end and pro gear, because I get what’s available to me as long as it SOUNDS good! Edit: I have a lot of behringer stuff LOL. I think their mother corporation manufactures components nowadays!
Love how Paul does the "southern sheriff" impersonation, then apologizes!
Yeah, like John Wayne - the timber of their voices is similar...
it sort of irritates me, actually. (eye roll)
@@TheMirolab No, it was funny
@@TheMirolab Svety, skip it then
Ok all of that didn’t really answer anything. They are not designed to do the job of the other ? But wasn’t that the question to begin with .. why not ? Why can’t pro amp work fine in home environments? I understand consumer spec amp may not last on pro circuit but vice versa , why not ?
At California Audio Labs we had a Tempest come in for repair that had been used in a mobile sound truck. The original Tempest was a mod of a Magnavox player and had a plastic chassis. It also used polystyrene capacitors in the sound path. The heat inside the van was high enough to not only melt the caps but also warped the chassis rendering the player unrepairable. High end gear is not built or designed for the rigors of pro use.
I still use an Aria CD Player, Good then Good now. Although one has to use a knife to open the drawer!
Pro audio does have a place in home audio, if you need lots of power for a subwoofer pro audio is definitely the way to go, if you have a good crossover device and can cut out all of the higher frequencies then it’s worth running them not to say if you have the money to do the higher end stuff but if your sub is only playing sub 40hz then it’s definitely irrelevant to use the higher end stuff. (Just hide it, and modify the fan) 😂😂😂 great video.
Wonder if Crown 400usd amp can be moded with audiophile quality caps , diodes bridges, op amps etc....???
Of course, it is also comon to by-pass the "pre-amp" board in pro amps and connect them straight to an better one.
@@djdacdb That is where things are getting interesting 😉 sorry Paul.
Ive owned Crown Crest and Lab Gruppen , and wouldnt hesitate to use pro gear on my hifi , but then again , I do like my hifi to sound like a tour rig.
But when you keep in mind that the music your listening too was played through pro grade gear at the concert it all starts to get a bit odd. it was recorded prior to being amplified , and mixed to be accurate , or as accurate as the engineer on the day fancied so really if you want the live sound , like you heard at the gig you need pro gear not hifi gear to be true to the experience.
"Jimi" Hendrix was famous for using feedback and distortion but that doesn't mean that you want to hear his music reproduced using amps with feedback and distortion. Producing music and reproducing music are two entirely different things.
@@lynnpoole7830 slightly different as that was the source , it was played back through pro gear at the concert though. Probably DC300As , and lots of them . One of the nicest sounding PAs I ever heard was a Meyer ML rig using Hand H V800s in parallel mono mode , it was awesome
I have an XLi2500 fed by an RME ADI DAC 2 fs. It is a very neutral, accurate sound. The DAC is a HiFi version of a pro DAC, they just eliminated a couple features. I really like it.
@Lloyd Stout wonder what the guy in the studio truck was listening on ,,, in a lorry thats bounced about and frozen and toasted ,, Ill bet it didnt have valves in it ,,, starting to see the pattern yet ??
Hmm, large venues or open air concerts compared to your living room?
Some old valve pro amps sound very good. Klein & Hummel, and Telefunken for example. But they where Studio Amps in there age and the times you could get them cheap are over.
And OLD Ashly FX series MOSFET Amps also 😉
Bryston.. We have stacks of them turning to dust in the storage lockers since we switched to powered monitors.
My ME1500 amp is for both Pro and home ( consumer ?) use it's better than a BHK and an EV or JBL power amp. It goes from DC to 400Khz within 0.8dB and has lower total harmonic distortion than Krells McKintosh or Quad amplifiers
I kind of disagree as far as the Crown XLS drivecore2. first, it all depends on what you're using your Crown amp for. secondly, if you look at most high-end subwoofer amps they all use D-class amps internally. plus Crown sold more amps in the last 5 years than any other company. not because they're the Top of the line. they do have competitors.
but if you're planning on using the Crown XLS as a subwoofer amp. you will have a hard time beating it for price and quality. even if you use the Crown xls 1002. which can put out 1100 watts at 4 ohms in bridge mode. which can easily drive four 10-inch subwoofers. and don't put a hole in your electric bill. it all depends on your app.
at least half of the people who buy it. don't know how to set it up correctly.
Yamaha Pro Audio Amplifiers will give some Audiophile Amps a run for it's money....For example, their P-Series Amps are incredible! Powerful, lot's of headroom, can drive 2 ohm loads and sound very very good. Great for Klipsch and JBL...QSC Amplifiers are also very good.
Their vintage PC series is still the best match for large JBL control room monitors I've ever heard.
@@philipbarrett3151 yeah, i love Yamaha.
@@kirkcunningham6146 After literally trying every amp in the book, including some larger "audiophile" models we finally tamed a pair of JBL 4435s in a difficult control room room with PC2002s running bridged. The guy writing the checks was thrilled!
@@philipbarrett3151 wow awesome! I've always wanted to hear those.
I'm using two Crown XLS1000 amps to drive Zu Omen Dirty Weekends and a VMPS New larger sub. I find it hard to convince myself that it isn't supposed to sound good, because it just does. They do need to have their loud fans swapped out, though. Stock fans were hi-fi showstoppers for sure. The volume trims on the Crown also allow me to adjust the sensitivity of my preamp volume knob. Other high end amps are surely calling my name, but I don't feel the pressing need to spend the cash as the Crowns appear to do everything right within the limitations of my room.
Tim de pavaracini just passed away but listen to him in his biography when he was interviewed. Recording engineers kept him flush with cash. Also Manley makes a good bit of recording equipment. Like Bascom they know tubes do some things great.
I'm just happy if the volume control goes to eleven.
Hi Paul, Now I get the amp issue. A bit off-topic, I bought Aperion's Allaires and sub for my kitchen. I want to buy their Verus iii surround set for the living room, but replace a 13-year old Yamaha RX V-3800. Everything surround sound points to Marantz and Denon most often, then Yamaha and a couple of others. The more I listen to you about speakers and equipment, the more undecided I become. Thought your Stellar bundle would work. ?? Should I not be looking at anything Audiophile for surround sound (no home theater) and just buy Marantz/Denon?
I can accept PA amps, but what about studio amplifiers? I agree in a way high-end look better, but studio amps are reference amps.
Would be interesting to put high end components into a crown amp to see how much improvement from the original.
Putting high end components into anything cheap will make a massive difference. Even a cheap receiver.
Crown uses high quality parts, such as 1% resistors where it matters, and they even used to hand-match transistors to assure best performance. This assertion that these major manufacturers are using inferior parts, or parts that are less-than, is bogus.
Have used older (not class D) QSC in some applications - massive toroidal on board, pretty dynamic.
Two thoughts;
1; Is Crown/QSC et al a good budget option (you can pick up 'my' QSC for $250ish) where lots of grunt is required - LRS speaker? Or maybe something else with low efficiency (thinking of a particular brand but forget name..) ahh-apogee
2; Has anyone tried modding these things? Of course there won't be a magic recipe for 'giant killing' but given the design brief there must be loads you can do.
QSC RMX1450a - Class AB, 300 WPC, Toroidal Transformers, balanced inputs, $700
@@petersouthernboy6327 Yep, I think that's the model. When I say 'pick up' I mean used. 10 on ebay at mo from 200-300 GBP (in the older style casing). 'Semi pro' use running hours can be low - a lot of those outfits average a couple of gigs a month or less. In fact the one at work does about 50 hrs over the year.
That was perfectly clear!
Paul, get youtself one Crown amp from their higher quality series, opet it, listen to it, and then record one more video with same question.
Some old wisdom here from Paul... The new breed of PA-Technicians and Club owners has been cultivating a set-up that consists of powerful, most neutral/linear amps with low noise floor, that only transports the already processed signal. They don't want amps with a tone. Any tone. The tone is tailored to measure through compressor(s) and (non-graphic) eq(s). An approach that is starting to garner a following in High End circles, harking back to the high-end studio quality of HiFi-Systems like the elaborate (golden age) top systems by Sony, Onkyo, Sansui and especially Pioneer in the mid-to-late 70's... YOUR sound, and if you get bored with it, you just dial into another one.... A neutral amp is doable, affordable and of great benefit here.
Sorry, Paul, but the days of "sweet sounding" amps are numbered in certain circles, whereas more is expected from the other components in the system, be they flexible or static. Pro-PA-Amps of a certain kind can easily bring this to the table. The eighties/nineties philosophies have had they're day for many newcomers, especially those with a taste for analog designs.
Just my two €-cents from what I learn from a number of forums...
I'm a newer audiophile, and I'm planning to experiment with this very topic. I feel it's possible to utilize pro amps and make them sound as good as any other in a good setup. I'll be finding out.
I have Crown XLi2500. I find it very neutral, no audible noise, a lot of available power. It's an AB amp around $500
Get yourself a qsc rmx 1450a and a decent dac and you'll never go wrong, especially if you run it balanced. Does rated power from 20hz to 20khz, fully class ab 'after the 1450 it is class H, which is still good', built like a tank, it is even 2 ohm stable, the power supply is well over built to, if the fan is ever to loud it is so simple to replace it with something quieter that matches the stock fans cfm rating, You'll have it for 40 years long as you take care of it and blow some compressed air though the heat sink fins and though out the amplifier every few years. I've seen qsc's rmx line "the series before the current rmxa line" be turned on and stay on for 15 years with never being turned off.... My 1850hd is a great example of this, it's been used and abused, dropped down stairs and shorted out 'by one of my buddies who didn't know what he was doing' despite all that, it still sounds as good as the day I got it new 14 years ago... I have a qsc a 3.7 monoblock from 1976 that still works as well... Their quality has always been first rate...
QSC 1450a amp is a little over $850. But sounds great with the extra 300 watts per channel @ 8 ohms.
@@ms19631964 it's a chunk of change but what you get is an amplifier that is rated guaranteed rms continuous average power from 20hz to 20khz with both channels drivien into 8 ohms and 4 ohm loads with an added bonus of true non thermal limiting 2 ohm per channel stability which is very rare today in your standard linear based class ab or h pro amps, most amplifiers, take crowns xls or xli series as an example are only rated at 1khz at rated power, music is not a 1khz sine wave testone, it varies though the full spectrum of our hearing, id rather an amp be able to do the same amount of power at 20hz and also 20khz, its only natural, not only do you get honest power figures, but you get absolutely top class build quality, sound quality and overall reliability first in class that stands above the rest and a 6 year warranty to boot! Qsc... Nothing but the absolute best. In a rack case, if id drop those rmx or rmxa series Amps off a truck or down the stairs, I want the confidence to know those suckers will still work because I have a show to do, not only from that but 20 years from now where they will still be making me money. With qsc, it eliminates the worry, only thing that needs to be done every year or two is to blow out the heatsink fins to remove dust to keep them running cool, do that and you'll have them for decades!
I have done a double blind and in my experience, it's not even close. They sound very different.
Idk your stella amps have more in common with crown xls amps than they do different (stella measures better but lacks dsp). BHK is in a different league of course but its kinda silly money so it would be.
@Lloyd Stout Depends on the DSP. Really good DSP from the likes of XTA (or some of the Soundweb boxes) sounds pretty good.
@Lloyd Stout There other reasons for using dsp as well.
This is so funny in so many ways. Audiophiles want their systems to sound just like the band is playing in their living room and yet they dont want the actual Amp the band uses to make the sound they do on stage. Also QSC has a less then .05% failure after 3 years on the road. Dont think they are built cheap.
Also a lot of home theaters use "pro" Amps just because they can be installed in a rack.
What amp plate would you recommend with a eminence nsw6021-6 driver? It'll be used 2-4 times a month for DJ wedding events.
I own a Crown XLi 2500. Great amp for the price. Makes an excellent amp for people on a budget or just getting into hifi. Then you save up and get something better. It's a very neutral amp with lots of power. With a good source and preamp you get pretty good sound. I'm sure it doesn't test great compared to a high end amp, but to rookie audiophile ears it does a good job.
As a pro sound engineer we use amplifiers (technically "controllers" these days as the signal processing is largely built in) that cost every bit as much as high end domestic units. The likes of Behringer & the value lines from Crown & QSC are certainly not what we're deploying on the road, more like the Crown I-Tech level or the L'Acoustics LA12X which are specifically designed to compliment the speaker system they are driving. Where Paul is correct is that the designs have to incorporate parameters domestic amp builders need not focus on. 15,000 people asking for their money back does not good marketing make!
Crown would instead spend $20-30 more on a part if it was reliable that could live in an industrial rack and sound great enough.
What of Benchmark, SPL or Hot House?
There are a lot of pro amps that sound terrible like the wind is howling through the speakers and there are a lot of hi-fi amps that sound like tin cans. I do however think that you can live with both worlds. I'm going to be buying a pro amp pretty soon (Dynacord) and use it on the low end of my stereo system. It's clean enough and powerful and can handle 2 ohm loads if necessary. Cost is approx. $1000. On the mids and highs , I have a Bryston 4b SST for detail. Each sector has something good to offer. By the way , try building your own speakers with pro drivers and you won't be disappointed.
I remember Crown made high-end tape decks back in the day. They they sound horrible too?
It's called being able to fleece someone. Pro gear has to live in a commercial world delivering quality at a realistic price. Domestic hi-fi gear has has no limits - price wise of course
It not only has to deliver quality, it has to delivery industry standard quality, which is a very high bar to achieve. It means there is no better quality unless you start interjecting subjective non-linearity into the signal or start upgrading components with the same values.
I'm floating around the idea of negative distortion in my mind. You start getting distortion because they playback equipment does not have enough of the same sort of distortion as appeared on the mixing board when it was recorded, mixed and mastered, so the flaws of the recording start to appear - see negative distortion. I've found this to actually be just as bad as the other more traditional forms of distortion.
Paul honestly you are dissapointing me this time sorry
He tell the true 😅
Paul has a vested interest in defending his turf. He is also woefully uneducated when it comes to professional gear.
Yikes..
@@keithmoriyama5421yikes...
I'm considering purchasing an MC2 Audio S800 amplifier for powering a set of full range speakers at home. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference compared to a traditional high end amplifier.
I still use a 25 year old Krell power amp, they are high end but also build to last :)
Im catching on that Paul often re-visits alot of questions/inquirys. Theres a few other points such as pro amps being designed to drive pro-speakers, and pro speakers being designed for outdoor/very large spacial environments. Theres a very fine but DISTINCT line between Home, Car, & Pro audio mos def!
Well, car stereo is a different beast all together.
@@hugobloemers4425 Only in implementation as the point im making. Still all the same tech & scientific principles ; )
is a carver pm 1.5 amp considered to be a high end amp,im a proud owner of one
Is it easier to say, Crown amp doesn't have such eye catching VU meter, bulb with yellow light, and a rectangular remote? And as well as a noisy fan to dissipate heat so efficiently such that it can run 24x7 even in a cramped equipment rack! And it won't cost you a fortune!