Yes, I attribute it to the same plugins, trigger sounds, mixing and mastering software presets and gear. I love dingwalls, get good drums and axe fx but it seems in metal that you have to use those things on 10 to record an album, so everyone sounds the same.
marc music I dont mean cheap stupid pop, rnb and hip-hop or dance. Those are the same even more than modern metal bands) But in soft rock, for example, there is a significant difference from band to band at least soundwize. Those are more diverse, i think. Of course, there are bands that have their own sound in metal, but very few.
modern metal is produced like edm nowadays. i can see it as a stylistic choice, but honestly i hate it. i want to hear people work their instruments, not "musicians" and "engineers" being lazy and taking the easy route.
Unless you listen only to metal prior to 1980, a lot of your favorite Metal albums were recorded with the aid of drum machines and drum triggers and solid state amplifiers. Yes, even those older bands. Don't blame overproduction when you can blame poor songwriting from an oversaturated market in a very explored 50-year-old genre.
@@necroplasmodeus4598 Exactly, totaly agree, I mean this guy is crying about drumshot snares... dude in the 80s once they found out gated reverb every snare on all music, rock, pop, metal sounded like a gunshot.
I completely agree with you buddy I've been playing heavy metal all my life I'm 55 years old now I used to be in the band manowar as the drummer.... I have my own band now and I am the engineer mixer producer and writer..... I have a very low budget studio and it frustrates me trying to get the sounds up to today's standards nobody has identity in their instrument anymore
This is exactly how I've been feeling about most modern metal productions for almost a decade now. One of the few productions that stood out to me was Meshuggah "Violent Sleep of Reason." To me, they nailed that natural band in a room vibe while still remaining heavy and tight as hell. Other than that I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I have actually enjoyed listening to in years.
Sturgis is a pussy. He and his URM "frrriendzz" are ruining the metal genre with their "top-down mixing" approach and mixes that sound all the same. And the funny thing is that on montgly Nail The Mix 99% of famous mixing-engineers (like Jacob Hansen or Fredrik Nordstrom or Jens Bogren or Russ Russel) use the old-school'ish way to mix the stuff. And the stuff always sounds huge and awesome. I bet Sturgis can't make classy sounding metal mix in any style other than so-called "modern metal".
Great video as always Jordan! The word I was waiting to hear (although, you said it in a few other ways), is DYNAMICS. Dynamics are being squeezed and crushed out of many modern productions. So much so that even intentionally quiet segments of songs are being slammed to the point where they aren't even quiet. The intended feel and feeling of that song segment is then lost. I find myself going past that threshold at times and it can be a real struggle to get things back to where they should be. Anyway, thanks again Jordan. Great advice as always-
I don't see how 5 years ago anything was different. I was already tired of it. Even 10 years ago all this shit was present but it was still quite new, so it felt like the modern metal sound. Now it's just dated modern metal sound.
Thats what y say..i think rock/metal ended when hair metal died end of story...fuk the 90s till now its all crap...well in the mainstream cause europe is filled with metal bands with that classic hard rock/metal sound its just pretty much dead here except for older bands touring but the new material is crap..theres very few good north american bands out now like haunt, high spirits, greta van fleet but there aint much
Hey! I’m a drummer and a vocalist. I am also a long time fan of metal and all it’s various sub-genres. I fully agree with everything you said. Great stuff man!
Great channel, always re-check your tips when I'm mixing. Still learning, but hoping to get better. Totally agree with your points about overproduced records, these come up all the time.
Over-production has very little to do with why heavy music sucks today, but UA-camrs like to claim that because it's a lazy take that sounds right. The truth is that the heavy music artist market has increased a hundred-fold since 2000 (since anyone with an SM57, an instrument, and a cheap interface can record an album), while the monetary incentives for making music have dwindled (far fewer Rock and Metal stars post-2000 compared to before, so the groupies, money, and drugs left the scene), and the hobbyist artists that remain haphazardly-compose half-assed riffs from their favorite Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Meshuggah, or Tool albums. The artform itself has been very thoroughly explored, so people that want to "revolutionize" what are effectively dead genres resort to making the music more atonal, or more dissonant, or more math-y, or more minimalistic, and the result is always the same: the music is boring because it lacks any cohesion.
Gatecreeper, ecostrike, trail of lies, fuming mouth, judiciary, inclination. All great examples, and a mix of styles within the hardcore / metal realm, that aren’t overproduced.
Here's something I think is happening. It's infinitely easier to demonstrate mixing techniques in video formats than it is to demonstrate recording and tracking techniques, which has led to a plethora of videos and tutorials on mixing and not a whole lot on recording drums. This is especially true on free video platforms like youtube, where I can find numerous and varied videos on mixing drums, most of which can be pretty similar regardless of genre (and the EQ, add the compressor, KLIP DE SNAER), but there's only a few videos that show how to mike a drum set comparatively, and even fewer that aren't just reviews of a kit that's already miked. I think part of that is because doing a mixing tutorial requires a lot less work to do, while recording a video for any sort of recording practices requires more equipment (and people at times) and time to do properly, and likely for a video that's less likely to get any ad revenue on a free platform like youtube. Because that's the case, I believe I'm correct in saying tracking videos tend to be locked behind a very substantial pay wall. It's also substantially more expensive to record a drum set with decent results than it is to mix a drum set with decent results. You need drums, microphones, some number of preamps and conversion, cables to plug everything in and a computer that can keep up with that workload and not crash while recording, and that's before we consider the skill necessary in order to know how to position microphones in a way that's cohesive. On the other hand, I think a lot of people can get decent drum mixes/productions with any daw, and achieve something decent if they had decent source material, or from something that's programmed out of a drum sampler like superior or slate or Get Good Drums (I always chuckle at that name) or whatever. So I think if we really believe that these things are getting ruined in the mix stage by over production and over editing, there needs to be a concentrated effort to make content for recording that is of good quality, and there needs to be a way to justify doing so essentially for free much like there is for mixing tutorials. I recognize this is more audio philanthropy than it is something that could be considered a viable business model, but the reality is that unless there is an effort made towards removing the paywall on recording and tracking techniques we're likely to continue to see more mixing tutorials until the band decides to just use artificial intelligence to mix records instead.
I always say "metal is turning into EDM"... and it literally is. The guitar and bass are basically synths because the natural playing is edited to the point of being MIDI, drums end up being completely artificial digital explosions to the grid. The band are just stage dancers.
I was about to post the exact same question. The thing is that thresold can be sometimes subjective. Althought when you hear a kick sounding like a sledgehammer you know better than that.
My mixes are oriented towards mainstream metal from roughly 2000 - 2010. People these days often tell me: "I like the song, but the sound could be a lot more polished and bright." or "It lacks power." This is probably due to the fact that I stay away from this overload sound that is popular today in modern metalcore - where many bands sound almost identical. I could not even dial in a guitar tone similar to lets say Orbit Culture, because this is not who I am or what I like when I'm playing the guitar. Back in my days (:D) bands sounded quite different from each other. And today it's just cannon drums, drop L tuned guitars, harsh vocals with a lot of true vocal folds and so on. Diffecult times for guys like me - where can I find an audience that appreciates my being-different? :D
WOW, I started to think this exact thought yesterday as I learned new tricks to make a snare drum thwack harder with more punch and power. My ears told me, hmmm, this is starting to not sound like a snare, and I hear it more in the mix, BUT, its not as pleasant. I record live drums in my studio, not the best mics, but, my raw sounds sound exactly like drums. I applied to your mentorship course. Will see if I get accepted and see how much the course costs. I have 40 years as a musician, guitar player, multi instrumentalist, and recording for only 10 years. Just digging in deep for the first time into recording, and learning, use your ears and trust them. I want to become good at the art of mixing, have the tools, but dont have the knowledge or experience yet. I have waves gold bundle that I just updated, SSL native essentials and studio one 5. Amp room is my plug in for guitars and have a real Marshall and Mesa cab I mic using a 57 when I feel the urge to go real.
I think this happened to a lesser degree around 1991 when Grunge got popular because other productions were sounding too unreal and peoples ears were refreshed by the rawness of grunge.
Exactly. Eventually, people want things to look and feel real. Right now, as a society, we seem to really be leaning towards everything having a filter and being fake. I think the pendulum will swing the other way, soon.
Jordan, this topic has been burning into my brain for a few months now. Thanks for touching on this! I have tried pulling back my drum compression tastefully lately and been totally blown away with the differences. Thanks for sharing!
The thing that sucks is because I am an amature I listen to these pro recordings and think that’s what I should be doing. I heard an album the other day and was thinking “is this how loud I should be making the kick drum? “ it literally was burying the guitars and everything. I feel like mixes have no sense of balance anymore. And I don’t know if your right about people getting tired of it because everyone I know(even great musicians) keep saying how brutal and awesome it sounds. I think only people in production realize it’s going to far.
Couldn't agree more! It's not a competition. As a producer, I think it's selfish when your goal is to be the loudest or the most brutal, when it's not what the song or band needs. I'm also a huge fan of hard hitting music and drum samples, but some new releases have just no organic or authentic sounds because they've exceeded that threshold of improvement. Great explanation!
i feel like "good mix" used to be a universal statement, there was one correct way to mix songs and everyone used it and everyone expected to hear it, but as music evolved the concept of a "good mix" became just as plastic as a "good riff", it became more about serving the point of the song than making it sound conventionally "good" so if a songs theme included being drowned out, make the instroments drown out the vocals, yes it might "ruin" the mix, but it serves the point of the song, if its about a breakup, distort shit that shouldnt be distorted, like acoustic guitar, or vocals, to show how crushing and wrong it all feels yea theres a lot of "bad" mixes in newer metal and rock, but its usually because theyre making choices to intentionally make it harder to listen to, because whats more punk than ignoring the conventions of a "good mix" to make what feels true to you
The reason drums are so loud in the mix these days is because they tend to get lost after extreme loudness processing. If we allowed for more dynamic range in our modern edm and metal masters this wouldn't be a problem.
Greetings. I was delighted to hear that you share your rants. I personally had the same problem with indies pop in where I stay too where songs because formulaic and predictable. There used to be moment when people say that pop music because predictable because of the chord progression, but I believe so is the same with modern metal. If we are so focused with trying to get that same sound, eventually it will fall the same trend. So thank you for the PSA
Yes I miss bands sounding unique! I think a lot of it is like a trend among musicians. That if you dont sound like a "modern" metal mix. Your mix is trash or it's too weak or not clear. For at home producers, we are riddled with vsti drums and vst plugins. Every big personally on youtube is pushing on us. So it's almost all we know. I think an average listener that is not a musician just expects a solid product. They dont analyze what kind of mix it is. They just like the song or they dont. The metal community has become pretty bad lately. Everyone judges everything you do. From the guitar tone to the cowbell. And if it's not "djenting" your ears out, then it's considered old and behind. When it's never been about old or new. Music always changes. I feel like it's a trend and "expectations" from musician to musician.
Deep purples In Rock album was recorded with a mobile studio parked outside while the band played in a hotel hallway. Legendary music with no digital fuckery.
This is so important and everyone should take note of what he is saying in this video. I struggled for far too long to get that polished modern metal sound or whatever you want to call it until I realised that it is way better to find your own style and diverge from the mass product. There are already 100s of guys out there who mix that specific sound. Why would you be one of them? Instead go out on a limb and do something fresh. A new perspective on these kind of things can bring you the success you are aiming for. I mean at some point someone started with that polished sound and made it popular. It's time for a change guys :)
Back in the 80s I found it really annoying when punk bands started sounding too polished. But, there were some amazing releases, particularly from the UK and Europe, that still hold up well and give me the same rush as they did when I was 15! Here's a short list of selections I play when I need that raw energy: Discharge - Hear Nothing, See Nothing, Say Nothing and State Control EP Rudimentary Peni - Death Church and Farce EP Killing Joke - 1st self-titled album and What's THIS For..? Battalion of Saints (US) - Fighting Boys EP Amebix - Winter EP
This video was so bold! I really appreciate that you took the time to articulate this issue in a way that challenges the industry to grow in a constructive direction. I love records that stand up over 15+ years and as I heard you reflecting on your experience with newer music in this genre, I realized that's the difference between a 2020 record that I listen to once and a 2005 record that I'm still listening to. Thanks for doing this video, I really hope it has an impact on the future of this music.
One of the best drum sounds I´ve ever heard is the opening of the Black Sabbath album Seventh Star. Why? Because the drum sound is the sound of a wide open loud and noisy double-bass drum kit,- which would be Eric Singer banging away at it,- which is exactly what it sounds like. Not tight, constrained and overprocessed but alive and wide open,- which means an actual performance actually being recorded in one go,- the whole song played through from start ´till finish recorded onto a 2" 24 track analog reel to reel tape recorder,- not copy pasted into infinity from a two bar measure of a basic rhythmic pattern called a "beat". Making everything about the music directly in the DAW and not even bother with actual human musicians is what RnB´s, hip hop and rap´s been doing for twenty-five years,- calling it a producer driven outfit, which means that the " producer" writes and " records" but essentially programs the music and then hires a nice looking girl or guy with some limited abillity to sing/rap the lead vocal - which of course will be MeloTuned ad nauseam ´till everything sounds just the same as everything else,- it´s just moved on to embrace the metal world. A prime example would be the German metal production channel URM Academy where the lead producer has stated that he doesn´t care what guitar, bass, amp or drum kit the musicians are bringing to the studio,- he´s gonna DI, sample and reamp everything anyway - be it guitars or drums - makes no difference to him. One of the most depressing statements I have ever heard and the absolute reason I would never use him for anything were I in a situation where I had the finances to reward myself with actual pro studio time and not just sitting in a spare room at home with a DAW thinking I´m the next greatest thing,- working a pro production here....!
I agree with you. Everything sounds the same and over-processed. FYI you've been a great help to my productions lately - your advice on EQ for kick drum and cymbals has helped me immensely! I'm determined to make real music with an authentic performance.
The focus on editing always leads to the quest for perfection. Music needs another cycle like when punk came along. It doesn't have to be perfect, flashy, fancy, on the grid. Only engineers care about the perfection. Listen to many old albums that were recorded analog where they didn't have endless room and equipment to achieve "perfect" mixes. Many older albums, even classics, are not something we would render today. We would say they're half-finished. But the listener doesn't give a sht. Music needs to be produced for the listeners, not the engineers, not the musicians, not audiophiles.
im glad to hear this from you, I believe this is why ive learned the most from your tutorials. Ive come to enjoy doing live sound a lot more in the past few years because of this issue. everything is so fatiguing to my ears now and slammed. great video!
Thanks a lot. I recognized already in the 2000ths. Already then band were trapped in machinegun heaviness and it seemed to be no way out, except stopping to make music. Still Pantera's Far Beyond Driven is more fun to listen to, than 75% of the metal albums from the past 20 years.
Solid points. I do feel that much of what is being lost in music is that human element. Again- this isn't a blanket statement, but there is a finite line of over cooking vs maintaining that human element. Yep- certain genre's call for that. If anything maybe the masses will go for obnoxiously overly processed stuff, but like everything in nature, and even economics, things eventually level out. Again - great video man!
Well, if you're disappointed now, wait until you're in your 50s. I haven't liked new metal since the mid 90's. Metal orginaly had jazz influenced drummers and it was badass. I ended metal around Corrosion of Conformity - Blind album. The music still had listenable song structures. Then it went industrial, rap metal, or just too super satan. This is why the general public has never heard of the current metal artist. The whole world used to know there names
I'm glad you released this vid Jordan. I too haven't been listening to a lot of modern metal records, except for a few ones that have a sincere sound. For me, metal died when every band started quantizing their drums. It sounds good when industrial metal bands like fear factory do it, but that is the picture they're trying to portray (man/machine). Vocal tuning is another problem. I still listen to records that came out when there was no such technology and it's impressive how much deeper those songs hit.
I'm glad you made this video. I've been mixing for around 3 years now, and I started having this same problem lately. I thought mixing was turning me into some overly critical mixing snob, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one bothered by production these days.
I think the problem with metal, not in all cases, but is many, is that its so over produced and manufactured. I started noticing it 20+ years ago. Listen to old fear factory, then listen to digimortal. Good album, but over produced. As soon as they realized you can make an album cheaper, and with less time going over and over the guitar parts, and drums, and instead just editing in software, it started to sound fake.
I've been thinking the same for the last 10 years probably. Also may be the reason why the rock genre lost so many listeners that moved into listening other genres (including myself) . Hard rock music started to sound like pop production where you can't tell anymore if you're hearing a cymbal or a sound effect. The same is happening to hiphop today where everything is getting compressed and sidechained and it feels synthetic. What makes genres great is exactly the imperfect human element. The grittiness and feeling make these kind of genres what they are, not saturated processing to make it into polished plastic. Metal music production today feels to me like someone taking a Picasso painting and then try turning it into a realistic photograph for some reason.
Perfection has a pyramid shape. Most people want to reach its peak, but there is only one. A synonym for "perfection" is "death". It's the place where nothing moves anymore.
Far beyond driven was one of the last monster guitar-heavy albums the production for that album was just in your face and it was a guitar tone that people imitated for years if not decades after even if they alter the formula Dimebag started a whole new sound with that album and Vinnie Paul's deep Custom Drums were sick too
Totally agree with you, I feel the exact same way, every song sounds the same to me, same samples, or at least the way that they are mixed, disconnected from the track, etc I try to change this with my mixes, things need to change
not to be a hipster, but i've been saying this for years. things just sound SO ridiculous now. drums, especially. time aligned. sample replaced. destroyed. guitars and basses are riff built to death until it sounds like guitar pro. vocals tuned TOO far for absolutely no reason. this new Capstan record. amazing songs and performances, but the production sounds fake. honest songs with absurd production takes away from the song. bands like polaris... it's pro tools and an axe-fx gone sentient. even the last ABR sounds kinda phony. anyone else notice how mono everything sounds? wide.... but mono. big mono. things like programmed bass, and now programmed guitar. it's out of control. "it's just a tool". well now it's metal techno. which is funny, because The Algorithm makes techno metal sound amazing.
I agree with you 100% I find my self enjoying comparing early Judas Priest records such as Sin after Sin, Stained Class and Screaming for Vengeance to my own mixes to get similar results without mirroring their mixes.
I think you have a great point. I rarely listen to metal albums that were released after 2014 ish. However it's hard for you to talk about this specifically without giving examples but I think I understand why you wouldn't want to do that.
you have no idea how happy it is to know you feel the exact same way. I have not been listening to new releases for a while now because its terrible . i feel everything is so maximized like you said , but because everything is maxed out it becomes blend after 10 seconds into the song . it just sucks man
Fing Brilliant!!!! We are not robots no matter how much we want to be- musicians are the experience OUR job as producers is to enhance and bring out that feel- Jason it is great to have someone like you saying this, a younger producer.
Man... I'm a nobody and not even a has been but a never was. My life circumstances don't leave a lot of room for band mates, the type of guys I would need just aren't available here. Anyway I'm a vocalist learning bass, guitar, drum programming and all this recording/ mixing stuff. I'm not faking guitar parts or anything but I run that and bass thru a pod go into a mac and program all the drums. Is it completely outside the realm of possibility for me to make a record that would be a pleasure to listen to? I hope one day I'll find some guys to jam with or be able to hire guys to play the parts but, I'm starting at rock bottom. I guess I was really touched by the comment about just programming drums and only having a vocalist lol. Like... hey... 😪
The new tool album is this sonically phenomenal achievement. Not to mention an amazing album. The more you listen to it the more you understand and the more these special moments come out. Brilliant musicianship!
Coming back to this, I've noticed a lot of metal productions these days feel like what I call producer music where the technical production is the main focus of the music. You can see this in genres like deathcore, where bands nowdays just compete against each other on who has the most overely produced monstrous sound, while there's not much going on musically, and you can't really hear much of an actual performance of any band member because everything is basically layers upon layers of quantized and maximized stuff. I think that's why we're also witnessing the disappearance of guitar solos as we used to know them, an important element of rock music where you can hear the charcter and feel of a guitar player. That 'imperfection' is usually subtituted now with guitar leads so quantized and and edited that sound like they could be done with a midi instrument.
Loudness war + overcompression + overuse of sampled drums/sample reinforced/replacement = shit records. There's no dynamics, in emoting or volume, no humanity left. The samples and editing/processing themselves isn't the issue. It's the fact, as you said, that these things are overdone. The curve analogy depiction you drew on the board, with the threshold, is so fucking accurate. It's akin to the Uncanny Valley with CGI animation.
Well said bro, I couldn't agree with you more! Unfortunately this production style has made it's way into a lot of different styles of music. A few album cycles ago a mutual acquaintance was hired to track drums for Keith Urban. He set up his kit in the studio, they had him hit his drums multiple times (him thinking they were getting tones dialed in), and within 20-30 min it was a wrap. He had learned the songs for nothing as they were essentially using his hits as samples on the album (and quite possibly on numerous records at this point). He got paid for the session and credit on the album, but needless to say was disappointed with how things happened.
I'm more of a purist myself. I'm a full time engineer in Sacramento and I think many of these points are shared by not only myself, but most of my clients. When I started recording many bands would ask explicitly not to be over produced and they would mock over production because it resembled pop music. There's a plastic element to over processed drums and robotic bass and tracking guitars a single chug at a time or even replacing the guitars too. This isn't what made rock and metal so great. It's not what connected to the fans and had rock music HUGE for decades. The more than we've treated rock and metal production the same way that hip hop and pop production is done the less popular our genres have become. We've lost our way. I'm only a single studio, but I try to bring back some of that authenticity to recordings again because that's where the magic is. The magic is in the musician, and deleting him is a disservice to our primary goal.
I've been feeling the EXACT same way about records lately. As a drummer I sometimes find it just silly how bands can go for a sound that's just so unrealistic and mechanic. That's why I love bands like Between The Buried and Me and Karnivool so much, 'cause they always have very organic, yet big sounding drums.
I know exactly what you’re saying! It’s like they’re taking 80’s Ballad rock drums almost and making them bigger. Not bigger... BIGGER!!!!!!!!!!!!! (But bigger than that) take amity affliction. Their style has come a very long way and I fucking love that band. Their drum mix at times on the new stuff crushes my ears. So many bands these days are like this. Musician want those big drum sounds. There’s ways to achieve this without putting your ears through a train wreck.
Yo I’m mixing for one year straight now and I discovered that clipping cleans up the mix so much… but is it therefore becoming more lifeless ? Or is it just a good choice for balancing?
Great point J. Despite the technical efforts of these last few years (loudness normalization) people still want LOUD mix. That's the problem. This overproduction problem is a son of al big lack of listening education. The engineer should be a key factor in this paradigma change, but he must pay the bills, so he do what the client ask for, and the problem is never being solved.
IMHO Ii never liked Heavy Metal and never will. I certainly appreciate the raw talent it takes to do it but I prefer other styles. It just doesn't catch my fancy but I am an older musician. I do appreciate what I learn from you, Jordan---you do make sounds interesting and I can always learn from the pros to make things better! I endure the music to learn from you!
hey guys, i started listening to current metal records not along ago. before i wasn't into heavy music at all. can you tell who jordan is referring to in this video? could he be talking about records of bands like erra and periphery? cause i really enjoy how those sound. maybe as i didn't listen to older heavy stuff i only know the modern sound.
Hey Jordan, Interesting video! A few month ago we released our new album with a more "over"-sound, as you mentioned in the video. We had the biggest argument with the band if we would go for that new more modern sound or the raw pure sound (mix and master). In the end we chose the modern sound. As far as we are now, we only have grown as a band and we only get good reviews. As a band in a scene where there is not much money envolved, this is kinda important and we are puched in a way where we have to follow the need for this sound to survive as a band and keep playing gigs, pure budget wise. It's sad, but a true fact. I think both band and sound engineers need to find a good balance. ADD: Offcourse everything start with the correct instruments that blend together very well. ADD2: Just checked your videos. Love it. +1 subscriber.
Jordan how do you feel about erra? I love the production on their new stuff but seems like you would hate it LOL but I really love it and it blew me away. Yes the drums are overdone but I love it
Here is why modern metal (mostly) sucks...because bands nowdays care more about how insane/heavy/extreme they sound than they do about whether the music has any feeling (other than mindless rage) or melody. It has gotten so out of hand that nowdays in the metal community, bands that have clean sung vocals and actual melody and recognizable structure to their songs (verse, chorus, verse etc) are said to not even count anymore as true metal. Classic metal bands like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden are having their metal cards revoked, so to speak, and being demoted down to the ranks of hard rock. First off, *you dont get to tell the people who invented and pioneered metal that they are not metal*. They built this house. Its their MFin house. *They* tell *you* what metal is. Let's just get that straight. And second, you can still sound extremely heavy without making a record full of nothing but mindless monotonous chugging and blast beats, more mindless growling and screeching, and insane sweep picking being the only actual notes you can make out above all the rest of the car crash sounding chaos. But of course, nowdays when a band hits the radio that is both heavy AND has actual melody that you can makr out, all the car crash sound loving obsessives want to call it "nu-metal" and boot it out. I'm sure a bunch of people are going to lecture me now with the same old "mainstream spoon fed blah blah" and list a bunch of bands I've never heard of that have tumbleweeds for logos, Im sure somebody will say "ok boomer" to me (let me just go ahead and award that person their ten points for origin-fuckin-ality) and Im sure a bunch of people are going to call me a poser (also a highly original insult) and say I dont know shit about metal, as if I wasnt listening to metal before alot of these tumbleweeders made it past their moms twat lips. Say what you want, but metal has gone to shit because of the metal community forgetting that it was supposed to be a heavier, more aggressive style of ROCK N ROLL, and somehow getting it in their heads that sounding extreme is more important than sounding like an actual song. I think that (albiet there are exceptions) what is called metal nowdays should be reclassified as its own genre called chaos and what is called modern hard rock should be considered metal because it *actually fuckin resembles* the true metal of the old school bands, the ones who built this institution.
This is why I don't work in certain genres at the moment. I feel like I can't be creative as an engineer, because what is expected for a "professional sound" just sounds like everyone else.
In my humble opinion, metal production went down the drain at about 2005. everything after that sounds all the same and so generic, clicky drums, bass thats buried in the mix, muddy, flat guitars etc. Its across all subgenres now especially djent and similar stuff. I think the 90s were the golden age of metal production
Hey Jordan! I'm so glad you're talking about this. I was just listening to some old Incubus records and I was amazed at how raw Brandon Boyd's vocals were! I was like, "Wow! That's slightly out of tune, but it still sounds cool!" Back in the early 2000s and 90s there was so much raw emotion allowed to enter the music without the over-editing. Now maybe that's a reflection on how powerful computers and editing software have become, but we all need to take a step back as audio engineers and think about if we're actually making better music with all these tools.
The problem is the listeners. If they give views to trap/rap garbage, producers are gonna produce this. If they give views to overprocessed metal, producers are going after that.
THANK YOU SO MUCH. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t really listen to a whole lot of heavy music, but when I do (the new/recent stuff coming out) you said everything I had a gripe on!
I've noticed over the past couple of years that every records really pushes the highs in their mix (for perceived volume I assume). All it does is make the entire mix sound thin and I honestly can't even hear the guitar/vocals in most songs now a days. It's just a loud, jumbled mess. Great video.
They mixemize and overproduction these days because they can. It can be done fast in digital production and so most do it. The last Tool Album was a nice exception. But, it was recorded on tape. The vinyl record sounds awesome.
This is why I've stuck with your lessons over the years and have taken URM/NTM with a grain of salt. Their community is helpful and it's an incredibly valuable service, but I think the only thing of value I've really learned is how crowded the music production industry is becoming thanks to the ease of use with digital plugins and gear, and because of this how many self proclaimed producers have sticks up their asses. You're criticized for not using the right DAW, or for asking silly questions, or for having any opinion for that matter. You've been one of the only people I've followed over the years that I've actually learned some real skills from. Thank you for that.
Angel Dust, Aderenaline, Chaos Ad, Demanufacture, Korn, Aenima. All these albums were the classic of 90's metal and influenced almost every metal band today and not one of those albums sound anything like the other.
Threshold of improvement = law of diminishing returns. 100% on point in today’s music. Also it’s all over sample and sounds unrealistic. Quantize = I cant play my part in time.
Totally agree mate!! Sad thing is that every new metal band that have some success these days record/mix/master the way you and I "hate". I see No happy future😭
Generally i like modern metal production. But there is one annoying thing - every band sounds the same.
Omg yes, nobody's doing anything new and even if they do something new the song either sucks at thr mixing part either is a lyrical mess..
Yes, I attribute it to the same plugins, trigger sounds, mixing and mastering software presets and gear. I love dingwalls, get good drums and axe fx but it seems in metal that you have to use those things on 10 to record an album, so everyone sounds the same.
is there any genre that sounds different from each artist within that genre?
marc music I dont mean cheap stupid pop, rnb and hip-hop or dance. Those are the same even more than modern metal bands) But in soft rock, for example, there is a significant difference from band to band at least soundwize. Those are more diverse, i think. Of course, there are bands that have their own sound in metal, but very few.
@@alexgl any example metal band that sounds the same? would like to check them out.
modern metal is produced like edm nowadays. i can see it as a stylistic choice, but honestly i hate it. i want to hear people work their instruments, not "musicians" and "engineers" being lazy and taking the easy route.
That's mostly just hardcore, deathcore, metalcore etc. The music sucks anyway. Listen to better metal subgenres and you won't have that problem.
Unless you listen only to metal prior to 1980, a lot of your favorite Metal albums were recorded with the aid of drum machines and drum triggers and solid state amplifiers. Yes, even those older bands. Don't blame overproduction when you can blame poor songwriting from an oversaturated market in a very explored 50-year-old genre.
@@necroplasmodeus4598 Exactly, totaly agree, I mean this guy is crying about drumshot snares... dude in the 80s once they found out gated reverb every snare on all music, rock, pop, metal sounded like a gunshot.
but the shitty sounding metal was before EDM was born.
I completely agree with you buddy I've been playing heavy metal all my life I'm 55 years old now I used to be in the band manowar as the drummer.... I have my own band now and I am the engineer mixer producer and writer..... I have a very low budget studio and it frustrates me trying to get the sounds up to today's standards nobody has identity in their instrument anymore
Kenny Earl having a signature snare sound and trademark in skill and how you hit the snare doesn’t exist anymore. Sample sample sample
@@demodeiowa
Exactly!
Just want to say hello to a legend. Rock on 🤘🏼 Where can we find your new music??
Also saying hello to A Legend :)
@@rosscogiordano1796
Thank you thank you!!!
This is exactly how I've been feeling about most modern metal productions for almost a decade now. One of the few productions that stood out to me was Meshuggah "Violent Sleep of Reason." To me, they nailed that natural band in a room vibe while still remaining heavy and tight as hell. Other than that I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I have actually enjoyed listening to in years.
I feel like this guy wants to just straight up call out Joey Sturgis and I wish he would.
i think he just called out everyone in URM
Sturgis is a pussy. He and his URM "frrriendzz" are ruining the metal genre with their "top-down mixing" approach and mixes that sound all the same. And the funny thing is that on montgly Nail The Mix 99% of famous mixing-engineers (like Jacob Hansen or Fredrik Nordstrom or Jens Bogren or Russ Russel) use the old-school'ish way to mix the stuff. And the stuff always sounds huge and awesome. I bet Sturgis can't make classy sounding metal mix in any style other than so-called "modern metal".
@@maxmolodtsov salty much?
@@maxmolodtsov It's a great school, bud. I admit it might not be for everyone, but I enjoyed every part of my subscription.
No they're friends 🤣
Great video as always Jordan!
The word I was waiting to hear (although, you said it in a few other ways), is DYNAMICS.
Dynamics are being squeezed and crushed out of many modern productions. So much so that even intentionally quiet segments of songs are being slammed to the point where they aren't even quiet. The intended feel and feeling of that song segment is then lost.
I find myself going past that threshold at times and it can be a real struggle to get things back to where they should be.
Anyway, thanks again Jordan. Great advice as always-
Modern overkill mixing + heavy radio compression = total ear rape
I don't see how 5 years ago anything was different. I was already tired of it. Even 10 years ago all this shit was present but it was still quite new, so it felt like the modern metal sound. Now it's just dated modern metal sound.
IMO it was the worst in like 2009 - 2010. At least now there is a variety in drum samples, instead of just Slate haha
Thats what y say..i think rock/metal ended when hair metal died end of story...fuk the 90s till now its all crap...well in the mainstream cause europe is filled with metal bands with that classic hard rock/metal sound its just pretty much dead here except for older bands touring but the new material is crap..theres very few good north american bands out now like haunt, high spirits, greta van fleet but there aint much
Hey! I’m a drummer and a vocalist. I am also a long time fan of metal and all it’s various sub-genres. I fully agree with everything you said. Great stuff man!
Great channel, always re-check your tips when I'm mixing. Still learning, but hoping to get better. Totally agree with your points about overproduced records, these come up all the time.
Nope, you're not alone with your view on the overproduced music.
Over-production has very little to do with why heavy music sucks today, but UA-camrs like to claim that because it's a lazy take that sounds right. The truth is that the heavy music artist market has increased a hundred-fold since 2000 (since anyone with an SM57, an instrument, and a cheap interface can record an album), while the monetary incentives for making music have dwindled (far fewer Rock and Metal stars post-2000 compared to before, so the groupies, money, and drugs left the scene), and the hobbyist artists that remain haphazardly-compose half-assed riffs from their favorite Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Meshuggah, or Tool albums. The artform itself has been very thoroughly explored, so people that want to "revolutionize" what are effectively dead genres resort to making the music more atonal, or more dissonant, or more math-y, or more minimalistic, and the result is always the same: the music is boring because it lacks any cohesion.
I have felt this way about mixes for the last decade. Thanks for the video, man. It’s something that needs to be addressed, and you did. Cheers!
Wow I didn't realize it's been a decade now. I still call it the new sound
All i know is that this better not be about the new Northlane or Knocked Loose 👀🤐
Cult Music 😂😂
Gatecreeper, ecostrike, trail of lies, fuming mouth, judiciary, inclination. All great examples, and a mix of styles within the hardcore / metal realm, that aren’t overproduced.
what do you think about the new sworn enemy record?
Spot on. The latest Fuming Mouth LP sounds insanely good
Here's something I think is happening. It's infinitely easier to demonstrate mixing techniques in video formats than it is to demonstrate recording and tracking techniques, which has led to a plethora of videos and tutorials on mixing and not a whole lot on recording drums. This is especially true on free video platforms like youtube, where I can find numerous and varied videos on mixing drums, most of which can be pretty similar regardless of genre (and the EQ, add the compressor, KLIP DE SNAER), but there's only a few videos that show how to mike a drum set comparatively, and even fewer that aren't just reviews of a kit that's already miked. I think part of that is because doing a mixing tutorial requires a lot less work to do, while recording a video for any sort of recording practices requires more equipment (and people at times) and time to do properly, and likely for a video that's less likely to get any ad revenue on a free platform like youtube. Because that's the case, I believe I'm correct in saying tracking videos tend to be locked behind a very substantial pay wall.
It's also substantially more expensive to record a drum set with decent results than it is to mix a drum set with decent results. You need drums, microphones, some number of preamps and conversion, cables to plug everything in and a computer that can keep up with that workload and not crash while recording, and that's before we consider the skill necessary in order to know how to position microphones in a way that's cohesive. On the other hand, I think a lot of people can get decent drum mixes/productions with any daw, and achieve something decent if they had decent source material, or from something that's programmed out of a drum sampler like superior or slate or Get Good Drums (I always chuckle at that name) or whatever.
So I think if we really believe that these things are getting ruined in the mix stage by over production and over editing, there needs to be a concentrated effort to make content for recording that is of good quality, and there needs to be a way to justify doing so essentially for free much like there is for mixing tutorials. I recognize this is more audio philanthropy than it is something that could be considered a viable business model, but the reality is that unless there is an effort made towards removing the paywall on recording and tracking techniques we're likely to continue to see more mixing tutorials until the band decides to just use artificial intelligence to mix records instead.
I always say "metal is turning into EDM"... and it literally is. The guitar and bass are basically synths because the natural playing is edited to the point of being MIDI, drums end up being completely artificial digital explosions to the grid. The band are just stage dancers.
And there it is. The "T-word". I was hoping you would say it: Taste. That's the real mark of a good engineer. Good taste.
When a song looks like a square wave they did too much. What happened to dynamic range?
The loudness war happened.
Hey Jordan,
Thanks for the video,
Could you provide a few examples of those mixes you were frustrated with recently?
Lol I was just about to post that till I read your comment ha
Nikolas Quemtri he won’t lol
@Eternal Rambler I've not really listened to anything new I still listen to the same stuff I've been listening too for years.
@Eternal Ramblerfeelings and memory.
I was about to post the exact same question. The thing is that thresold can be sometimes subjective. Althought when you hear a kick sounding like a sledgehammer you know better than that.
This is much more about "how" they suck than "why" they suck.
The "why" is far broader than engineering abuse, or metal, or music alone.
My mixes are oriented towards mainstream metal from roughly 2000 - 2010. People these days often tell me: "I like the song, but the sound could be a lot more polished and bright." or "It lacks power." This is probably due to the fact that I stay away from this overload sound that is popular today in modern metalcore - where many bands sound almost identical. I could not even dial in a guitar tone similar to lets say Orbit Culture, because this is not who I am or what I like when I'm playing the guitar. Back in my days (:D) bands sounded quite different from each other. And today it's just cannon drums, drop L tuned guitars, harsh vocals with a lot of true vocal folds and so on. Diffecult times for guys like me - where can I find an audience that appreciates my being-different? :D
Share your stuff.
@@BlackSailPass_GuitarCovers My channel is full with my material. :)
Meanwhile, Opeth releases their new album 'In Cauda Venenum' in September.
What you're talking about is "The law of diminishing returns".
Exactly what I wanted to write 😊👍
WOW, I started to think this exact thought yesterday as I learned new tricks to make a snare drum thwack harder with more punch and power. My ears told me, hmmm, this is starting to not sound like a snare, and I hear it more in the mix, BUT, its not as pleasant. I record live drums in my studio, not the best mics, but, my raw sounds sound exactly like drums. I applied to your mentorship course. Will see if I get accepted and see how much the course costs. I have 40 years as a musician, guitar player, multi instrumentalist, and recording for only 10 years. Just digging in deep for the first time into recording, and learning, use your ears and trust them. I want to become good at the art of mixing, have the tools, but dont have the knowledge or experience yet. I have waves gold bundle that I just updated, SSL native essentials and studio one 5. Amp room is my plug in for guitars and have a real Marshall and Mesa cab I mic using a 57 when I feel the urge to go real.
One of the tricky things is-that threshold is in a different place for everybody.
I think this happened to a lesser degree around 1991 when Grunge got popular because other productions were sounding too unreal and peoples ears were refreshed by the rawness of grunge.
very similar indeed
Exactly. Eventually, people want things to look and feel real. Right now, as a society, we seem to really be leaning towards everything having a filter and being fake. I think the pendulum will swing the other way, soon.
Jordan, this topic has been burning into my brain for a few months now. Thanks for touching on this! I have tried pulling back my drum compression tastefully lately and been totally blown away with the differences. Thanks for sharing!
The thing that sucks is because I am an amature I listen to these pro recordings and think that’s what I should be doing. I heard an album the other day and was thinking “is this how loud I should be making the kick drum? “ it literally was burying the guitars and everything. I feel like mixes have no sense of balance anymore. And I don’t know if your right about people getting tired of it because everyone I know(even great musicians) keep saying how brutal and awesome it sounds. I think only people in production realize it’s going to far.
I guess time will tell!
Couldn't agree more! It's not a competition. As a producer, I think it's selfish when your goal is to be the loudest or the most brutal, when it's not what the song or band needs. I'm also a huge fan of hard hitting music and drum samples, but some new releases have just no organic or authentic sounds because they've exceeded that threshold of improvement. Great explanation!
i feel like "good mix" used to be a universal statement, there was one correct way to mix songs and everyone used it and everyone expected to hear it, but as music evolved the concept of a "good mix" became just as plastic as a "good riff", it became more about serving the point of the song than making it sound conventionally "good"
so if a songs theme included being drowned out, make the instroments drown out the vocals, yes it might "ruin" the mix, but it serves the point of the song, if its about a breakup, distort shit that shouldnt be distorted, like acoustic guitar, or vocals, to show how crushing and wrong it all feels
yea theres a lot of "bad" mixes in newer metal and rock, but its usually because theyre making choices to intentionally make it harder to listen to, because whats more punk than ignoring the conventions of a "good mix" to make what feels true to you
I agree, diminishing returns from over processing. This happens to me a lot getting carried away adding shit that doesn't benefit the song
I agree with you 100% I was beginning to think I was the one that was wrong!
Totally spot on. Modern production has taken the life out of heavy music.
Nope, you're just listening to hardcore or other similar (shitty) subgenres.
@@michaels7159 oh wow glad you told me that a subgenre is shitty. Did you get a pair of JNCOs with that edge?
@@michaels7159 any of the "core" subgenres are garbage tbh
@@davidrucareanu4849 there are good bands in every genre. And good metalcore and deathcore bands are verrrry good
The reason drums are so loud in the mix these days is because they tend to get lost after extreme loudness processing. If we allowed for more dynamic range in our modern edm and metal masters this wouldn't be a problem.
Greetings. I was delighted to hear that you share your rants. I personally had the same problem with indies pop in where I stay too where songs because formulaic and predictable. There used to be moment when people say that pop music because predictable because of the chord progression, but I believe so is the same with modern metal. If we are so focused with trying to get that same sound, eventually it will fall the same trend.
So thank you for the PSA
Yes I miss bands sounding unique! I think a lot of it is like a trend among musicians. That if you dont sound like a "modern" metal mix. Your mix is trash or it's too weak or not clear. For at home producers, we are riddled with vsti drums and vst plugins. Every big personally on youtube is pushing on us. So it's almost all we know. I think an average listener that is not a musician just expects a solid product. They dont analyze what kind of mix it is. They just like the song or they dont. The metal community has become pretty bad lately. Everyone judges everything you do. From the guitar tone to the cowbell. And if it's not "djenting" your ears out, then it's considered old and behind. When it's never been about old or new. Music always changes. I feel like it's a trend and "expectations" from musician to musician.
Deep purples In Rock album was recorded with a mobile studio parked outside while the band played in a hotel hallway. Legendary music with no digital fuckery.
This is so important and everyone should take note of what he is saying in this video.
I struggled for far too long to get that polished modern metal sound or whatever you want to call it until I realised that it is way better to find your own style and diverge from the mass product. There are already 100s of guys out there who mix that specific sound. Why would you be one of them?
Instead go out on a limb and do something fresh. A new perspective on these kind of things can bring you the success you are aiming for.
I mean at some point someone started with that polished sound and made it popular. It's time for a change guys :)
Back in the 80s I found it really annoying when punk bands started sounding too polished. But, there were some amazing releases, particularly from the UK and Europe, that still hold up well and give me the same rush as they did when I was 15!
Here's a short list of selections I play when I need that raw energy:
Discharge - Hear Nothing, See Nothing, Say Nothing and State Control EP
Rudimentary Peni - Death Church and Farce EP
Killing Joke - 1st self-titled album and What's THIS For..?
Battalion of Saints (US) - Fighting Boys EP
Amebix - Winter EP
This video was so bold! I really appreciate that you took the time to articulate this issue in a way that challenges the industry to grow in a constructive direction. I love records that stand up over 15+ years and as I heard you reflecting on your experience with newer music in this genre, I realized that's the difference between a 2020 record that I listen to once and a 2005 record that I'm still listening to. Thanks for doing this video, I really hope it has an impact on the future of this music.
One of the best drum sounds I´ve ever heard is the opening of the Black Sabbath album Seventh Star. Why? Because the drum sound is the sound of a wide open loud and noisy double-bass drum kit,- which would be Eric Singer banging away at it,- which is exactly what it sounds like. Not tight, constrained and overprocessed but alive and wide open,- which means an actual performance actually being recorded in one go,- the whole song played through from start ´till finish recorded onto a 2" 24 track analog reel to reel tape recorder,- not copy pasted into infinity from a two bar measure of a basic rhythmic pattern called a "beat".
Making everything about the music directly in the DAW and not even bother with actual human musicians is what RnB´s, hip hop and rap´s been doing for twenty-five years,- calling it a producer driven outfit, which means that the " producer" writes and " records" but essentially programs the music and then hires a nice looking girl or guy with some limited abillity to sing/rap the lead vocal - which of course will be MeloTuned ad nauseam ´till everything sounds just the same as everything else,- it´s just moved on to embrace the metal world.
A prime example would be the German metal production channel URM Academy where the lead producer has stated that he doesn´t care what guitar, bass, amp or drum kit the musicians are bringing to the studio,- he´s gonna DI, sample and reamp everything anyway - be it guitars or drums - makes no difference to him.
One of the most depressing statements I have ever heard and the absolute reason I would never use him for anything were I in a situation where I had the finances to reward myself with actual pro studio time and not just sitting in a spare room at home with a DAW thinking I´m the next greatest thing,- working a pro production here....!
Great video. I really needed to hear this! Thanks.
I agree with you. Everything sounds the same and over-processed. FYI you've been a great help to my productions lately - your advice on EQ for kick drum and cymbals has helped me immensely! I'm determined to make real music with an authentic performance.
The focus on editing always leads to the quest for perfection. Music needs another cycle like when punk came along. It doesn't have to be perfect, flashy, fancy, on the grid. Only engineers care about the perfection. Listen to many old albums that were recorded analog where they didn't have endless room and equipment to achieve "perfect" mixes. Many older albums, even classics, are not something we would render today. We would say they're half-finished. But the listener doesn't give a sht.
Music needs to be produced for the listeners, not the engineers, not the musicians, not audiophiles.
im glad to hear this from you, I believe this is why ive learned the most from your tutorials. Ive come to enjoy doing live sound a lot more in the past few years because of this issue. everything is so fatiguing to my ears now and slammed. great video!
Thanks a lot.
I recognized already in the 2000ths. Already then band were trapped in machinegun heaviness and it seemed to be no way out, except stopping to make music. Still Pantera's Far Beyond Driven is more fun to listen to, than 75% of the metal albums from the past 20 years.
Solid points. I do feel that much of what is being lost in music is that human element. Again- this isn't a blanket statement, but there is a finite line of over cooking vs maintaining that human element. Yep- certain genre's call for that. If anything maybe the masses will go for obnoxiously overly processed stuff, but like everything in nature, and even economics, things eventually level out. Again - great video man!
Next Level - Programming the Program
Well, if you're disappointed now, wait until you're in your 50s. I haven't liked new metal since the mid 90's. Metal orginaly had jazz influenced drummers and it was badass.
I ended metal around Corrosion of Conformity - Blind album. The music still had listenable song structures. Then it went industrial, rap metal, or just too super satan. This is why the general public has never heard of the current metal artist. The whole world used to know there names
I'm glad you released this vid Jordan. I too haven't been listening to a lot of modern metal records, except for a few ones that have a sincere sound. For me, metal died when every band started quantizing their drums. It sounds good when industrial metal bands like fear factory do it, but that is the picture they're trying to portray (man/machine). Vocal tuning is another problem. I still listen to records that came out when there was no such technology and it's impressive how much deeper those songs hit.
I'm glad you made this video. I've been mixing for around 3 years now, and I started having this same problem lately. I thought mixing was turning me into some overly critical mixing snob, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one bothered by production these days.
I think the problem with metal, not in all cases, but is many, is that its so over produced and manufactured. I started noticing it 20+ years ago. Listen to old fear factory, then listen to digimortal. Good album, but over produced. As soon as they realized you can make an album cheaper, and with less time going over and over the guitar parts, and drums, and instead just editing in software, it started to sound fake.
I've been thinking the same for the last 10 years probably. Also may be the reason why the rock genre lost so many listeners that moved into listening other genres (including myself) . Hard rock music started to sound like pop production where you can't tell anymore if you're hearing a cymbal or a sound effect. The same is happening to hiphop today where everything is getting compressed and sidechained and it feels synthetic. What makes genres great is exactly the imperfect human element. The grittiness and feeling make these kind of genres what they are, not saturated processing to make it into polished plastic. Metal music production today feels to me like someone taking a Picasso painting and then try turning it into a realistic photograph for some reason.
Perfection has a pyramid shape. Most people want to reach its peak, but there is only one.
A synonym for "perfection" is "death". It's the place where nothing moves anymore.
Far beyond driven was one of the last monster guitar-heavy albums the production for that album was just in your face and it was a guitar tone that people imitated for years if not decades after even if they alter the formula Dimebag started a whole new sound with that album and Vinnie Paul's deep Custom Drums were sick too
Totally agree with you, I feel the exact same way, every song sounds the same to me, same samples, or at least the way that they are mixed, disconnected from the track, etc I try to change this with my mixes, things need to change
"threshold of improvement" is a very precise definition. bravo
wow... I'm glad I saw this early on in my learning to mix my home recordings... Thanks for the input! I'll rewatch this with notes tomorrow. ^_^
not to be a hipster, but i've been saying this for years. things just sound SO ridiculous now. drums, especially. time aligned. sample replaced. destroyed. guitars and basses are riff built to death until it sounds like guitar pro. vocals tuned TOO far for absolutely no reason. this new Capstan record. amazing songs and performances, but the production sounds fake. honest songs with absurd production takes away from the song. bands like polaris... it's pro tools and an axe-fx gone sentient. even the last ABR sounds kinda phony.
anyone else notice how mono everything sounds? wide.... but mono. big mono.
things like programmed bass, and now programmed guitar. it's out of control. "it's just a tool". well now it's metal techno. which is funny, because The Algorithm makes techno metal sound amazing.
tl;dr Don’t be a “miximizer.” 👍 I’ll certainly remember that.
Good news is, I’m still wayyy to the left on that chart. 😂
I agree with you 100% I find my self enjoying comparing early Judas Priest records such as Sin after Sin, Stained Class and Screaming for Vengeance to my own mixes to get similar results without mirroring their mixes.
I think you have a great point. I rarely listen to metal albums that were released after 2014 ish. However it's hard for you to talk about this specifically without giving examples but I think I understand why you wouldn't want to do that.
That first Periphery album,I read it was recorded on drum pads thru software.
you have no idea how happy it is to know you feel the exact same way. I have not been listening to new releases for a while now because its terrible . i feel everything is so maximized like you said , but because everything is maxed out it becomes blend after 10 seconds into the song . it just sucks man
Fing Brilliant!!!! We are not robots no matter how much we want to be- musicians are the experience OUR job as producers is to enhance and bring out that feel- Jason it is great to have someone like you saying this, a younger producer.
Man... I'm a nobody and not even a has been but a never was. My life circumstances don't leave a lot of room for band mates, the type of guys I would need just aren't available here. Anyway I'm a vocalist learning bass, guitar, drum programming and all this recording/ mixing stuff. I'm not faking guitar parts or anything but I run that and bass thru a pod go into a mac and program all the drums. Is it completely outside the realm of possibility for me to make a record that would be a pleasure to listen to? I hope one day I'll find some guys to jam with or be able to hire guys to play the parts but, I'm starting at rock bottom. I guess I was really touched by the comment about just programming drums and only having a vocalist lol. Like... hey... 😪
The new tool album is this sonically phenomenal achievement. Not to mention an amazing album. The more you listen to it the more you understand and the more these special moments come out. Brilliant musicianship!
Coming back to this, I've noticed a lot of metal productions these days feel like what I call producer music where the technical production is the main focus of the music. You can see this in genres like deathcore, where bands nowdays just compete against each other on who has the most overely produced monstrous sound, while there's not much going on musically, and you can't really hear much of an actual performance of any band member because everything is basically layers upon layers of quantized and maximized stuff. I think that's why we're also witnessing the disappearance of guitar solos as we used to know them, an important element of rock music where you can hear the charcter and feel of a guitar player. That 'imperfection' is usually subtituted now with guitar leads so quantized and and edited that sound like they could be done with a midi instrument.
Loudness war + overcompression + overuse of sampled drums/sample reinforced/replacement = shit records. There's no dynamics, in emoting or volume, no humanity left. The samples and editing/processing themselves isn't the issue. It's the fact, as you said, that these things are overdone. The curve analogy depiction you drew on the board, with the threshold, is so fucking accurate. It's akin to the Uncanny Valley with CGI animation.
I agree. Time to put some warmth in the mix again.
Well said bro, I couldn't agree with you more! Unfortunately this production style has made it's way into a lot of different styles of music. A few album cycles ago a mutual acquaintance was hired to track drums for Keith Urban. He set up his kit in the studio, they had him hit his drums multiple times (him thinking they were getting tones dialed in), and within 20-30 min it was a wrap. He had learned the songs for nothing as they were essentially using his hits as samples on the album (and quite possibly on numerous records at this point). He got paid for the session and credit on the album, but needless to say was disappointed with how things happened.
Some really great points you made !!
Check out Berried Alive. Interesting stuff my guy.
What bands?
I'm more of a purist myself. I'm a full time engineer in Sacramento and I think many of these points are shared by not only myself, but most of my clients.
When I started recording many bands would ask explicitly not to be over produced and they would mock over production because it resembled pop music. There's a plastic element to over processed drums and robotic bass and tracking guitars a single chug at a time or even replacing the guitars too.
This isn't what made rock and metal so great. It's not what connected to the fans and had rock music HUGE for decades. The more than we've treated rock and metal production the same way that hip hop and pop production is done the less popular our genres have become. We've lost our way.
I'm only a single studio, but I try to bring back some of that authenticity to recordings again because that's where the magic is. The magic is in the musician, and deleting him is a disservice to our primary goal.
I've been feeling the EXACT same way about records lately. As a drummer I sometimes find it just silly how bands can go for a sound that's just so unrealistic and mechanic. That's why I love bands like Between The Buried and Me and Karnivool so much, 'cause they always have very organic, yet big sounding drums.
I know exactly what you’re saying! It’s like they’re taking 80’s Ballad rock drums almost and making them bigger. Not bigger... BIGGER!!!!!!!!!!!!! (But bigger than that) take amity affliction. Their style has come a very long way and I fucking love that band. Their drum mix at times on the new stuff crushes my ears. So many bands these days are like this. Musician want those big drum sounds. There’s ways to achieve this without putting your ears through a train wreck.
Yo I’m mixing for one year straight now and I discovered that clipping cleans up the mix so much… but is it therefore becoming more lifeless ? Or is it just a good choice for balancing?
Great point J. Despite the technical efforts of these last few years (loudness normalization) people still want LOUD mix. That's the problem. This overproduction problem is a son of al big lack of listening education. The engineer should be a key factor in this paradigma change, but he must pay the bills, so he do what the client ask for, and the problem is never being solved.
Thanks for sharing, Jordan. Love your videos, lotsa great information!!
IMHO Ii never liked Heavy Metal and never will. I certainly appreciate the raw talent it takes to do it but I prefer other styles. It just doesn't catch my fancy but I am an older musician. I do appreciate what I learn from you, Jordan---you do make sounds interesting and I can always learn from the pros to make things better! I endure the music to learn from you!
hey guys, i started listening to current metal records not along ago. before i wasn't into heavy music at all. can you tell who jordan is referring to in this video? could he be talking about records of bands like erra and periphery? cause i really enjoy how those sound. maybe as i didn't listen to older heavy stuff i only know the modern sound.
Excellent video. Exactly right! The song is the king! (not the kick drum!)
That will never go out of style!
Hey Jordan,
Interesting video! A few month ago we released our new album with a more "over"-sound, as you mentioned in the video. We had the biggest argument with the band if we would go for that new more modern sound or the raw pure sound (mix and master). In the end we chose the modern sound. As far as we are now, we only have grown as a band and we only get good reviews. As a band in a scene where there is not much money envolved, this is kinda important and we are puched in a way where we have to follow the need for this sound to survive as a band and keep playing gigs, pure budget wise. It's sad, but a true fact. I think both band and sound engineers need to find a good balance.
ADD: Offcourse everything start with the correct instruments that blend together very well.
ADD2: Just checked your videos. Love it. +1 subscriber.
Jordan how do you feel about erra? I love the production on their new stuff but seems like you would hate it LOL but I really love it and it blew me away. Yes the drums are overdone but I love it
Here is why modern metal (mostly) sucks...because bands nowdays care more about how insane/heavy/extreme they sound than they do about whether the music has any feeling (other than mindless rage) or melody. It has gotten so out of hand that nowdays in the metal community, bands that have clean sung vocals and actual melody and recognizable structure to their songs (verse, chorus, verse etc) are said to not even count anymore as true metal. Classic metal bands like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden are having their metal cards revoked, so to speak, and being demoted down to the ranks of hard rock. First off, *you dont get to tell the people who invented and pioneered metal that they are not metal*. They built this house. Its their MFin house. *They* tell *you* what metal is. Let's just get that straight. And second, you can still sound extremely heavy without making a record full of nothing but mindless monotonous chugging and blast beats, more mindless growling and screeching, and insane sweep picking being the only actual notes you can make out above all the rest of the car crash sounding chaos. But of course, nowdays when a band hits the radio that is both heavy AND has actual melody that you can makr out, all the car crash sound loving obsessives want to call it "nu-metal" and boot it out. I'm sure a bunch of people are going to lecture me now with the same old "mainstream spoon fed blah blah" and list a bunch of bands I've never heard of that have tumbleweeds for logos, Im sure somebody will say "ok boomer" to me (let me just go ahead and award that person their ten points for origin-fuckin-ality) and Im sure a bunch of people are going to call me a poser (also a highly original insult) and say I dont know shit about metal, as if I wasnt listening to metal before alot of these tumbleweeders made it past their moms twat lips. Say what you want, but metal has gone to shit because of the metal community forgetting that it was supposed to be a heavier, more aggressive style of ROCK N ROLL, and somehow getting it in their heads that sounding extreme is more important than sounding like an actual song. I think that (albiet there are exceptions) what is called metal nowdays should be reclassified as its own genre called chaos and what is called modern hard rock should be considered metal because it *actually fuckin resembles* the true metal of the old school bands, the ones who built this institution.
This is why I don't work in certain genres at the moment. I feel like I can't be creative as an engineer, because what is expected for a "professional sound" just sounds like everyone else.
In my humble opinion, metal production went down the drain at about 2005. everything after that sounds all the same and so generic, clicky drums, bass thats buried in the mix, muddy, flat guitars etc. Its across all subgenres now especially djent and similar stuff. I think the 90s were the golden age of metal production
Nah
Tool - Fear Inoculum. Excellent production.
Totally agree. Impeccable playing, production, and writing
I can't stand the drum mix in that album. I am a huge Tool fan but that clicky drum mix is awful in my opinion on their latest record.
@@mcgarnacle21 I actually liked that. Especially in the title track. F.I. Just because it was a different sound.
Hey Jordan! I'm so glad you're talking about this. I was just listening to some old Incubus records and I was amazed at how raw Brandon Boyd's vocals were! I was like, "Wow! That's slightly out of tune, but it still sounds cool!" Back in the early 2000s and 90s there was so much raw emotion allowed to enter the music without the over-editing. Now maybe that's a reflection on how powerful computers and editing software have become, but we all need to take a step back as audio engineers and think about if we're actually making better music with all these tools.
The problem is the listeners. If they give views to trap/rap garbage, producers are gonna produce this. If they give views to overprocessed metal, producers are going after that.
couldn't agree more, nothing turns me off to a new band more than the drums and guitars that sound exactly like every other band
THANK YOU SO MUCH. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t really listen to a whole lot of heavy music, but when I do (the new/recent stuff coming out) you said everything I had a gripe on!
Speaking the truth! Things get even more crazy when you add modern radio compression and limiting to the equation
I've noticed over the past couple of years that every records really pushes the highs in their mix (for perceived volume I assume). All it does is make the entire mix sound thin and I honestly can't even hear the guitar/vocals in most songs now a days. It's just a loud, jumbled mess. Great video.
Tater Fight I hate mixes that are so bright that they hurt to listen to at medium volumes
I think the term "maxing" is the best, it's simple, clean and has just one different letter. "Hey, can you max this song for, me? Thanks!"
Thank you for saying this. It struck a chord with me
They mixemize and overproduction these days because they can. It can be done fast in digital production and so most do it.
The last Tool Album was a nice exception. But, it was recorded on tape. The vinyl record sounds awesome.
This is why I've stuck with your lessons over the years and have taken URM/NTM with a grain of salt. Their community is helpful and it's an incredibly valuable service, but I think the only thing of value I've really learned is how crowded the music production industry is becoming thanks to the ease of use with digital plugins and gear, and because of this how many self proclaimed producers have sticks up their asses. You're criticized for not using the right DAW, or for asking silly questions, or for having any opinion for that matter. You've been one of the only people I've followed over the years that I've actually learned some real skills from. Thank you for that.
Angel Dust, Aderenaline, Chaos Ad, Demanufacture, Korn, Aenima. All these albums were the classic of 90's metal and influenced almost every metal band today and not one of those albums sound anything like the other.
Threshold of improvement = law of diminishing returns. 100% on point in today’s music. Also it’s all over sample and sounds unrealistic. Quantize = I cant play my part in time.
Totally agree mate!! Sad thing is that every new metal band that have some success these days record/mix/master the way you and I "hate". I see No happy future😭