Christ, so many great comments in less than 24 hours of putting this up! I'll try to read and comment back on as many as I can, thanks for continuing to be such a kick ass community
My taste is superior than most people in this thread. Here are my top 5. 1. Shrek soundtrack 2. Maroon 5's entire discog (playing at the same time) 3. American Eagle's 2011 summer playlist (playing in Hollister 2018) 4. XXXTENTACION'S demos at 1/4 speed 5. Field recordings of Saklavian wilderness
@@niamhcarden5577 /mu/ is a 4chan music discussion forum that has a list of albums they talk about on there- albums they think everyone should know and like
I think elitism happens because serious music listening is very much a niche hobby. Nobody listens to albums, most people only listen to songs. Niche hobbies like that will naturally beget elitism. For every person who listens to an album, there will be ten who listen to an album's tracks on shuffle, and a hundred who play music videos on UA-cam on autoplay. When I was a wee lad I would often get into such communities for the glamour and the references of being in a community where you could get some in-jokes were fun. Now I'm just old and tired, and mainly talk to good friends about music. Except now we're quite open to low-brow favourites, and even now we poke fun at each other while meaning no harm cus we know we're all entitled to that music which makes us happy. I mean, I bloody love Oasis. As for if I condescend people who aren't on my music level... kinda. I know that I have listened through hundreds of albums and that it naturally makes me a bit knowledgable about music than other people, but I don't then go out of my way to attack and criticise people for not following the hippest, underground trends in music - or preach my tastes as the only truth. A pretty easy way to blow me off from any friendly conversation is outright stating that an artist makes bad music - even if I agree. It's tone like that that really sticks to the person, not the artist they talk about.
agree, most people do listen to songs. As the good looking guy said in the video. there is a difference between casual music listeners and passionate music listeners.
" think elitism happens because serious music listening is very much a niche hobby. Nobody listens to albums, most people only listen to songs. Niche hobbies like that will naturally beget elitism. For every person who listens to an album, there will be ten who listen to an album's tracks on shuffle, and a hundred who play music videos on UA-cam on autoplay." Allow me to plagiarize that for a song im building in my head. On a serious note, this is one of the very few compelling music discussion ive come across so far. Thank you +deep cuts. Thanks also to SEGAClownboss
I’m embarrassed to say I’ve certainly had those elitist thoughts while talking to others about music, which I believe comes from an insecurity about liking artists and music that have been deemed “boring” or “too obvious” like you mentioned. While on one hand I’ve been motivated by this judgment to expand my musical horizons and knowledge, I’ve also used that exploration as a way to hoist my own musical ego when it’s feeling bruised
Alien Alibi I think people listen to music for a myriad of reasons. Sometimes people aren’t looking to explore music more deeply and are content with that because they connect with other things in their lives the way that some people connect deeply with music. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, I think it’s simply a preference. Also, all music that is on the radio isn’t inherently bad just because it’s on the radio. It feels like sort of an elitist sentiment that you’re describing with your comment imo
I agree! I think that when you start to get deeper into any music community your opinions can get stronger, as your passion for specific artists and genres grows. It can be really easy to forget how far your taste has come and that not all people listen to music for the same reasons. I struggle SO HARD bc my immediate reaction to a lot of my friends music is "Y U LIKE DIS TRASHHHHH???" And it really kills the dialogue, bc no one wants to talk about music with someone who shoots down everything they enjoy.
To be honest, I do struggle with this. In my group of friends, and basically anyone I know in real life, no one really seems to 'care' about music the way I do. What I mean is that I feel like they experience it in a very different way than I do. Whereas I like to listen to music as an activity; read up about musicians and music theory; and try out all sorts of stuff I've never experienced before, they all seem content just putting on radio music. Heck, I've even got friends who only listen to anime openings, or are only into Eurovision, as far as music goes. I think to myself each to their own, but I can't help but feel some sort of superiority over these people, at least when it comes to music that is. I try as hard as I can to suppress these feelings, but I'm pretty certain they've manifested, albeit not in the extremest of forms. So folks, judge my morality: Am I a filthy elitist, or nah?
I don't think you're an elitist. Because you like music as a hobby, but your friends don't really like music in that way. For example, maybe someone has read 10 books in his life, and another person has read hundreds of books, knows about movements, genres, authors... the second one is superior in literature knowledge, in my opinion.
You just take music a step further than most people. Music is your hobby and it's not for them. I'm grateful I've discovered some not so common artist that people who are not really into music won't bother to discover, which makes me feel sort of """"superior"""" when it comes to music. Nothing elitist, just a wider taste.
You are probably more knowledgeable and skilled than your friends in respect to music. You are not *superior* to them. I think your feelings are rooted in the notion that what you care about is intrinsically more important than what they care about. That's just my feeling from your comment.
I have the same "problem" as you. I don't think it's being elitist, it's just being more interested. Your friends are probably more interested and research more about other stuff like sports. For example, they could know more about football; all the transfers happening, upcoming new players, lower divisions. That doesn't mean he would be an elitist, he would just be more interested than your average football fan. Of course this is my opinion, but I always saw an elitist as someone who bashes what someone, who is also interested and takes more time into his hobby, likes.
Alvin Yakitori among the educated people ive met, if they are jazz majors there's a strong likelihood they are elitists. I met a jazz drummer a couple years ago at my local uni through some work i was doing and asked him about the movie whiplash and he scoffed at me so quick
As a member of Patrician Music Chartposting, I think most times when the word patrician is used, it tends to be either in an ironic way or just to allude to "good" music. I think with time and with frequent use it's lost the elitist meaning that it used to have in these communities.
Yeah PMC used to be kinda bad with this but it's really evolved to a more inclusive and light-hearted place, cool (albeit pretty strange) to come across members outside of it
To be honest, it feels like it might be a phase you go through, at least it was for me. You start off not knowing much, learn something and think you're better for doing so (which in a sense is true) and try to show off what you know. It's only when you've learnt enough that you realise there's too much to learn by yourself that you move past this phase. I certainly remember being a bit elitist about music, both certain genres and even artists within genres i liked, and was a bit of a twat (although gladly didn't actually refer to anyone as a "pleb").
The thing is many people don't continue to expand and get past that mindset, and some don't even get to that point so there's always elitists and the people "below" them.
I think that happens when you get into anything, you dont know anything, you know something and you think you know everything, then finally you know a good amount but you realize you'll never know everything
Elitism exist in almost any part of our lives. Film, literature and music are the art forms where I can see the most of this practice. Mainly, because the three can be directed to huge masses or to more selective consumers. The key to reduce elitism is to have an open minded discussion with the support of arguments. There would not be an absolute truth but you can share your opinion in a friendly way.
I see it most in memes and music. I’m guilty of partaking in meme elitism, I hope to stop, as no one likes that one fucker that mocks everything and calls it cringey
I think people just need to chill. It's music after all, something people are passionate about because it's personal to them. People need to enjoy what they enjoy, and not try and shun people who haven't explored certain genres as much as them. Also for the record, I've seen nothing but positivity from the ambient music community. People there are still recommending Music For Airports every day because it's great.
I was often criticized by a group of friends for my choice in music at one time. While they were all into death and doom metal, I also liked listening to weird avant garde music or chiptune. At the time I was discovering just how incredible some artists were in the chiptune community, I was drawn to the ones that had a progressive rock or progressive metal edge like Disasterpiece, and whenever we had social gatherings at the house they wouldn't really let me put on anything I liked because it was gay. I think they often perceived the music I liked to be pretentious too because I was into stuff like Kayo Dot which has often been regarded as difficult to listen to but rewarding once you connect. Its only been until more recent years that I dug into doom and black metal because the genres peaked my interest again but I stopped hanging out with those guys. I just want to be me and listen to what I like without people shitting on it.
mobman47 There’s nothing worse than being the black sheep in terms of music taste - it’d be interesting if everyone in your group listened to completely different stuff, could result in some interesting conversation / friendly debate where nobody’s made to feel left out because nobody fits in xD
I had some friends who were just like this even though I got them into the kind of misic they liked. Luckily they've matured and now have interesting and diverse music tastes and more importantly don't shit on anything that's not in their wheelhouse and are more open to different shit.
honestly, people who call any type of music “gay” (unironically) should be disqualified to even talk about someone else’s music taste, let alone bash it. im glad you didnt stop listening to what you like
You would think metal heads of all people would be the most open minded towards strange music, but alas according to so many, if it isn’t early mayhem or some obscure brutal death metal band, it’s apparently for poser scenefags and is not worth listening to.
Plebtrician culture was always jokingly done. Also, cultures like /mu/ also make fun of people who try to be epic ultra patrician with terms like Poseur so it all swings in roundabouts in the messy hypermetaironic culture that fills these communities. Even poseur has been reclaimed in a sense and people call themselves that and post essential poseurcore charts among other things
NP. In referring to your question about being elitist towards certain types of musics, I tend do avoid do so as its kind of pointless. For example, a few of my mates are really into 6ix9ine but just because I hate his music and think that he's a terrible person, I'm not gonna dislike them or look down on them due to what they listen to. Like what you want and if someone slags you off about it, then its not the end of the world.
Elitism is an interesting concept when it comes to music as those are a deeply ingrained in music and music culture don't always have "popular tastes" so it comes probably from a place of ostracism, people want to feel special, when it gets dangerous is when you are trying to either deny yourself, or others the right to enjoy things. For example one of my favourite bands ever is the seminal death metal band death, and I have a deep love of jazz and post punk; to a general audience of people these are semi fringe genres, but by liking these I'm not going to lie to myself and say that Dua Lipas "new rules" doesn't slap, because it does slap so hard and is a good song. Your taste is your taste, like what you want, who's arsed
This reminds me of a joke: Q "How many hipsters does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" A "Well. It's this really obscure number.... you've probably never heard of it before...". This joke subverts elitism & jabs at an attitude that comes from a place that is no different than schoolyard bullying. If I like a Venetian Snares record but I also get WAY into some Anne Murray.... and you KNOCK me for that, I simply no longer know what you are talking about. Convo, over. You are precisely trying to get into my pants or someone else's pants by appearing superior. Music is love and music can be sex, but only a slap-monkey would ever use their own taste in it to garner a sense of identity or individuality or, especially, a power over others.... Thank you, Oliver, for suggesting this, subtly, in the way that you do. You are a peace-bringer.
I remember picking up on my best friend when we were 15 because his favorite band was Gunsn'Roses and mine Sigur Ros. At first when we showed ourselves songs (we're both musicians) it was clear that we had very different tastes in music, but he tried to comprehend or give the song a chance, sometimes he would say he liked it even though i could read from his body language that he didn't. In my case, I was not that kind or modest. I remember he kinda cracked when I said that I honestly didn't think that slash was a good guitar player. As the time went by and we were older he kinda stopped trying to understand whatever trendy/obscure shit was hyped. He chose his own path on a legitimately true taste to himself. Meanwhile I was introduced to /mu/ and I was very exited to found a community that had my interests in music, but later it became pretty clear to me that there was a competitive and elitist ambient in much of the pages threads, a never-ending competition on whom had the obscurest taste and edgier opinions. (I was once picked on a thread because i dared to say In Limbo was my favorite track from Kid A). Nowadays I kinda envy him for staying true to what he actually liked and not what edgy patricians told him to like. Music is such a wide and infinite spectrum and IMO the more you listen to it as for what it is and not what it represents, your criteria and enjoyment will be more true and real to yourself. It sounds obvious but it's harder than it sounds.
admin of Patrician Music Chartposting here, thanks for the mention! really happy we aren't seen as being too elitist as we definitely started out that way.
Definitely see a lot of elitism in music (and other subcultures too); even more since I started learning how to play guitar. A lot of people just really think stating their opinion in the meanest way possible makes them correct or they want to make other people feel bad for not knowing as much as they do. I think these people tend to think that appreciating music means being able to recall facts like google search and know all these technical things so that when they encounter someone who is a novice who doesn’t know jargon or a particular artist or song, people attack them as not being a “real” fan. When I was like 12, I used to think the only good music was Rock music but then I got interested in music as an art form and looked into theory and now I don’t think there are bad genres anymore, just particular ones that don’t interest me but have merit to other people. I think that’s a lot more of a healthy mindset to have regarding art, honestly.
Joey LaChance Imagine you're on a date with a nice girl and everything is going great. You ask her what music she likes and she answers she's preaty much into nazi-punk these days. Wouldn't it be hard not to die inside?
Nah. There's some music that is straight garbage. Like narcocorridos. It's coo to be inclusive and like everything. But some shit just sounds weak and uninspired
shoutouts to / mu / i come across people with those types of elitist attitudes yes. the only elitist thing i do is making fun of christian rock when my mom is listening to it, but that's just me joking around. i don't look down on others when they like different stuff then i do
This was pretty spot on. For every fan that thinks theyre somehow superior because they listen to a more niched artist, theres one that has a degree of self aware ironic humour about it. HOWEVER, there are certain communities online where actual elitism really takes over. r/radiohead comes to mind as an example. I saw a person ridiculed for saying they subjectively prefer the bends to the rest of their discography. Its that sort of thing that leads to generalizations of fanbases, making them less approachable. It forms a kind of vicious circle.
I listen to a variety of music, from really obscured albums to pop mainstream radio jam. Whenever I'm talking to someone who believes radio pop jam music is worthless I do feel a bit superior to them, because I try to not close myself to anything, I listen to everything I can. It's still not justified, elitism should be respected in order to be fought (if it must even be fought agaisnt). I don't like some specific mainstream and established artists, but I don't think the people who listen to them are idiots for liking them. Some people dwell deep in music, experiment with their taste, listen to new, weird, exciting stuff. Some are okay with listening to radio jam. And some dwell deep BUT still prefer the radio jam.
I generally feel uncomfortable when someone asks my taste in music because I don't want to come off as a pretentious person, even though I am not. I just listen to music most people I know haven't encountered. My other thought after watching game your video is that elitism in these communities is often directed at women who want to join the discussion. This is also true for video games, comics, sports, etc other male-dominated groups.
As a metalhead, when I stumble across elitists they are usually assholes, so it's just not restricted to music. Metalheads are really passionate, so, while I agree that it has a fair amount of elitists, there is also a big chunk of extremely kind and helpful people that I rarely meet in any other genre of music.
I’m a high school (just graduated) student and Mumble Rap is the biggest genre of music currently. So a lot of the people would blare Post Malone, XXX, 21 Savage, Lil Pump, etc. I have listen to their lyrics and most of the time it’s either lyrics to just get the teens all hyped (drugs most of the time) or lyrics about depression. Now there are some rappers that are considered Mumble Rap that I enjoy. I do enjoy Lil Peep and one named Jakey. Jakey also has a UA-cam channel called Nakey Jakey, but his music is also very well written. Some very emotional songs. But I have asked people why they listen to Mumble Rap, they either say because they like the sound or because it hypes them up. I don’t know how I feel about Mumble Rap, I don’t hate and I don’t enjoy it. I do see it’s massive impact though, basically birthing the Sad Rap culture. It has definitely made a impact.
I listen to a large variety of music, and I have encountered elitism in almost every damn genre. Classical musicians, lovers of jazz, experimental fanatics, pop supporters, even between subgenres like classic prog rock and modern prog rock. I get through that by separating fans from art.
Didn't the patrician/pleb idea just start with CLT back on /mu/, who was just one dude who smoked weed a lot and loved Zappa? I might have misremembered. For me, though, it always seemed to be tongue-in-cheek from the beginning, though maybe I'm just used to /mu/ now, despite its current poptimist spamming.
I think the Patrish/Pleb divide predates the introduction of /lit/ but /lit/ was populated by /mu/tants from day 1. but ugh. it's been half a decade since my /mu/ days. I've started and graduated college since I last heard the name hampus
I think there are certainly negative kinds of elitism that I've experienced on facebook and the board that shall not be named, but I don't think what people call elitism is always bad, and in fact is sometimes very good. I remember listening to a lecture on T.S. Eliot and the lecturer talked about how people called Eliot elitist because his poetry is difficult, when actually it was the opposite of elitist because it treated every reader as intelligent enough to apply themselves and read a difficult poem. I think the same can apply to music communities where they can really encourage you to explore new genres because you're expected to, and suddenly you find yourself listening to more exploratory music than you thought you were capable of. The flipside is that this can encourage you to have a "I'm going to listen to as many albums as possible" approach to listening which really limits the amount you can appreciate an album. I definitely bought into this approach but I'm thankfully starting to shake it now.
Really great video on an interesting topic. I feel that at this stage, the initial wave of outward music elitism on the internet has generally reached a stage of self-parody, indicating that, whilst it still exists, the idea itself is generally ridiculed & I in the last few years I've seen much more of people championing quality mainstream music in more underground music circles, which is a very positive indicator of the decrease in popularity of elitism, or rather elitist contrarianism (which has been seen to be very prevalent at times). Personally, I always find myself refraining from music conversations with people I know who aren't 'music nerds' in one way or another because I've always felt that I'd be perceived as elitist by people outside of the music community, but maybe that's just me being paranoid haha. Love these videos, keep up the good work.
I just listen, miss my mom who was a cool music silly & appreciate my 1 younger friend who has a head and heart for this level of understanding & YOUR CHANNEL. thank you.
I love your videos you have broadened my musical spectrum greatly. I tend to stay within the realm of various genres of my youth and teenage years I can go from Fleetwood Mac to Fudge Tunnel to NWA to Lords of Acid to Dead Voices on Air within an hour. I dig all sorts of music not to sound cliche but Music is the best drug. I'm definitely a newbie on many of the groups you have mentioned in the past and will mention in the future, but I do appreciate the education. Much 💚💚 from Sweet Home Alabama.
Elitism exists in real world as well.. Classical / Indian Classical & Jazz seems to have it.. I love many different genres and when I'm trying to get into a new genre i do sense a disdain when I say I'm into rock music..
You should try to get an understanding of music before you start hating on it. You should also have an understanding of a genre of music if you make fun of elitists from the genre.
that’s so heartbreaking. as a classical musician, when i find out someone from another genre is starting to get into classical music it makes my heart glow and i just want to share all the cool pieces they could experience
If you ever find someone that listens to Deep Cuts shouting out PMC almost obsessively, give that person a hug. Because the people that relate to that music have been through hell and are probably still there.
I went on your discord thinking people would be elitist. They where super nice and introduced me to some amazing artists. I've found that the real heads like really smart people are as the dutch say "not selling the fact".
Nice topic + I really love your channel. Nobody around me care about music as much as I do, but they never miss a chance to mock my taste. The only time I would judge someone's taste in music, is if he/she kept on trying to change my mind and telling me what I should listen to instead of what I LOVE.. those people are found in every music discussion (:
The first time I watched this video I didn't know about /mu/core which I discovered a few days. Now I get the references made. Their essentials charts are great so many good music to listen to.
Yeah I’ve found that the more I’ve started to become invested in the music community (via Reddits and forums), the more intimidated I’m made to feel by others. The Patrician Music Chartposting group is one of the worst places for it, especially when no healthy critique is given to some artists other than them being “plebeian” which has only really start to get on my nerves due to the classist origin. Great video Oli, a class discussion as always!
I am extensively at heart an alt. rock fan, who maybe comes across a little bit elitist sometimes, but similar to you with your John Mayer story, I struggle with the swarms of repetitive soundcloud rappers (as I prefer the like of Kendrick Lamar and MF Doom when it comes to modern hip-hop) and some people at places like school belittle me because I’m happy to listen to some extreme metal sometimes. I get a little bit annoyed when the accuse my of all my music sounding the same, when they listen just to mumble rap or uninventive 4 chord pop music. I admit at times this can make me sound like an elitist, but half the I just want them to try new music they may like that doesn’t necessarily chart. I have heard people stupid things like the fact some music is good because it is popular, rather than actually analysing the song on it’s merits. I sometimes find these reductionist viewpoints to be as if they are rejecting another person’s right to be an individual, saying because they don’t agree with them they are wrong when it comes to something that is subjective in nature. I would say a great example of this was the new Arctic Monkeys album, which I liked due to the overall vibe and its intricacies in its beautiful production (not forget Alex Turner’s thought inspiring lyrical compositions), but people turned to me saying it was ‘utter wank’ because it wasn’t as hooky as AM, an album that I admittedly was disappointed with. I have a feeling that there is starting to be a slight genre bias in the mainstream against any music that isn’t fitting into a few small sub genres of pop and hip-hop and I feel this limits from exploring music they wouldn’t necessarily hear otherwise. I don’t experience elitism that much when it comes to the more obscure music communities, especially with punk community which seems to be very inclusive from my experience, but there are the occasional examples though. My love of Nirvana has led me to be called the likes of a ‘wannabe hipster’, as Nirvana ‘got too popular to have any credibility’ which I find elitist to the extreme. Sorry for the mini-rant. Love the content. Keep it up! Hope everything you had to do for your degree when well!
I agree with you Oliver, although there are extreme examples when you can’t help but judge a person based on their music choices - like if someone is into NSBM and all the lyrics and trappings thereof, then I’m going to give them a wide berth!
In the city I used to live in I had lots of friends who all had their own unique taste in music. It was always great fun to share albums and talk about them over a few drinks. Now ive moved to a really small town to studie and I didnt know anyone when I got here. Everyone i have met here just listen to the radio and dont really care for music in the way I was used to. This became frustrating to me, so I turned sort of elitist for a while. But as I noticed, people got feed up and angry with me. I have learned alot from this, mostly not to take myself to seriously and not to bash on people who just listens to music in a diffrent way. We all listen for different reasons. Great videos btw and sorry if my spelling is off! 👍
hip hop elitism is just as bad. you can't even like today's hip hop without 90s and 2000s fanboys bullying you and falsely accuse you of liking mumble rap.
I really appreciate your content and I found this video really interesting, so here’s my take on elitism: First of all, just to give some context, I do believe that elitism exists, but I don’t view it as a huge problem, just a pain in the ass to deal with, but not something transcendental. I think that the problem is rooted in the way our language is structured. Let me explain: I think the problem ultimately relies on the existence of adjectives like “good” , “bad” or “better”. Many if us (myself included) use this adjectives when talking about music, although we shouldn’t. Imo, music is completely subjective, there is no such thing as a better piece of music than other and I do believe, most of us think that way. Here’s where the problem strikes: The already mentioned adjectives sound and are meant to be objective value judgements and we use them when talking about subjective topics , like, in this case, music. That’s why I think, we feel much more attacked when somebody tells us an album is better than one that we really like, even when they state that it is just their opinion, in comparison whit when they tell us they like it more. I believe the situation would be a lot better if we instead said: “I like it more”, or “ I dislike this record”, etc.
Id like to thank everyone on the discord for fully embracing me and avoiding laughing at my total lack of knowledge of so many different genres, i have found out about and begun to explore ambient music through lping random albums and talking to people who know more than i do
Great video. On the subject of attacking music tastes/others, I feel like I've put others down in the past to make myself feel superior and I believe that our music taste is inherently tied to our identity so that definitely made it personal. But I've learned recently that it doesn't really matter what other people listen to. Music is like a Magic Eye puzzle; sometimes you see it and sometimes you don't but you've got to respect what other people like because at the end of the day they enjoy it.
I wouldn't say I ever think less of a person for what music they like or consume but I would say I find myself judging people who only listen to certain styles and genres as people that just don't take their love or interest in music as seriously as I do (which is perfectly fine). Sometimes this comes off as elitist but it's only because as you said in the video, when music is something that resonates so personally and significantly with someone, they will be more passionate about it. It's only elitist if you claim to be "better" or "smarter" than someone else because of differing taste or opinions.
Welcome back! Glad you finished your degree! Just the other day I was discussing musical elitism with a friend; you could not have made this at a better time. Brilliant work, as always.
Great video Oliver! One thing I would extrapolate on is that since most expressions of musical elitism are written online (and relatively anonymous) it can be hard to detect sarcasm, which can easily lead to miscommunication. So the “problem” of musical elitism could seem bigger just because some people see it as funny, while others interpret it at face value. In person, with body language and more clear forms of communication, I rarely find elitism to be an issue. Pretty obvious point, but I think the medium effects the psychological and sociological impact of the elitism discussion.
I would often say that taste can't be discussed whereas quality can. You can call it elitism if you want, but some music IS better than other, either because it is better crafted, has more artistic layers, is more expressive (in the broadest possible sense of the word) etc. But then our judgement is always shaped by our cultural ambience in any case. For my own part, I have a formal education in musicology, so I would sometimes come across music which is loved by many but which I - based on my theoretical knowledge - think is poor or badly crafted. At the same time I am also aware that there may be artistic dimensions which I miss because of my cultural background. But I do think very little of some of the music coming out of the pop radio today, especially when it is autotuned and things like that - and yes, I believe autotune is killing the artistic subtlety of the vocal performance. On the other hand I really like a good pop song too. My main preferences include classical music, some jazz, the more intellectual corners of pop and rock, traditional folk music and sometimes electronic music (the more experimental corners of it). I also try to look beyond the Danish (my home country) as well as the Anglo-American music scene whose cultural dominance I see as a sort of elitism too. You can find many interesting kinds of music from many corners of the world, but it is largely ignored by the global mainstream audience, except locally. But my favourite music includes a lot of Anglo-American stuff as well.
It's just the typical problem with people being afraid of being different that appears with any insecure person in any group. Just emptily stating one has the same opinions as others to get approval should be more shameful than any backlash you'd receive for being honest with yourself.
I think industrial music communities have a lot of pretentious and elitist people, even to other sub-genres of industrial and post-industrial music. People always arguing what is “true” industrial, shitting on mainstream industrial acts like NIN, shitting on artists that fuse industrial music with other genres such aa hip-hop etc.
Great video! I have seen alot more of the toxic kind of elitism than I'm happy to admit. Online and irl. But that's just my personal experience. People take music very serious which I completely respect, but I think you should build people in these communities up and suggest what you think would improve their music taste instead of just blindly hating on any Twenty One Pilots fan or whatever.
This sounds like most of the kids I hung around with in high school. I was the pleb because I liked Interpol and everyone else was cool because they liked metal bands
I'm a member of a few music communities, including PMC and the Deep Cuts discord, and I wouldn't say I see elitism that often in all honestly, at least not directly, though it does still happen from time to time and it can be frustrating. I think its prevalence has a lot to do with the culture that is set within that community... for instance in PMC it seems there has been a concerted effort to reduce that kind of behaviour by turning the whole patrician/pleb thing into a meme, whereas I've been a member of more serious communities, often dedicated to one band, that seem to ostracise people who don't have that band as their absolute favourite and even question why they are there. And, in such places, there isn't really anything to discourage that behaviour which is why it got so bad. Some people will be toxic and elitist regardless of the group but that's more a reflection on them and their personalities, I don't think it's something inherent to music communites necessarily. For instance I posted a festival lineup on PMC highlighting the artists I was planning to see, and while most people were saying "if you like x then you might also want to check out y" and giving helpful feedback, you had a few others saying "you want to see z? really?" and "how can you not want to see so-and-so lol" and just being negative and judgemental as if there was something seriously wrong with me. As for myself being elitist, the way I judge the taste is less to do with "this person knows nothing about music" or anything like that (I will admit that I'm still in the early stages of my musical discovery and kind of an amateur, so I'm in no position to judge), but for me music is something I find it easy to bond over and if there's no overlap between another's preferences and mine then I'd probably think "I can't really relate to this person musically", which can work against me in trying to interact with people. Though I think a lot of the insecurities I feel about music is to do more with the limitations I'm under as far as expanding my taste goes... for example, I'm one of those people that buys all their music (with streaming being inconvenient for me personally as I mostly use an iPod classic), so while I enjoy the aspect of collecting physical copies, it means that because of my lack of money I'm not able to discover things very often, and definitely have no means to really explore niche subgenres. I have this huge backlog of stuff I can't even begin to try and get through while everyone else is somehow able to listen to 30 new albums every week and I'm stuck with what I have. Additionally when people post their top 100 charts and I either haven't listened to or even don't recognise ANY of them it can be disheartening as I then feel that my taste is basic and I can't keep up. Some genres I just don't enjoy, some I would like to get more into but don't know where to start, some artist discographies are just too imposing. I want to explore more musical avenues and be more open but I'm not able to and it sucks. But again, that's more to do with my own issues than anything other people have made me feel. To summarise, music elitism does exist but there are things that can be done to mitigate it effectively, though I think more could also be done to actively include people. (sorry for the essay haha, I just couldn't stop writing)
You made me remind when I was a little boy and Reggaeton just boom in my country (I'm Colombian) and it hasn't stoped since. I remember that cause I didn't like that type of music and I regulary said: "This should be banned!". My argument was that Reggaeton was offensive towards women. Now that i'm old I thing that banning a particular type of music is a very facist thing to do, and I use to think that very strongly.
I actually do come across certain people like this on both sides of the spectrum on a very regular basis. As a college student the majority of people listening casually to The pop/rap/RandB wave at the moment are very toxic towards people who don’t listen to that type of music and are branded as weirdos and something to be ridiculed for but on the flip side in a much more indie community I find there’s a lot of elitism against those types of people which may or may not be born of the elitism from the chart music fans reactions to different tastes but I have to say music elitism is still as rife as it ever has been but at least it’s better than a general disinterest, it proves young people are still passionate about music but elitism is grating. Luckily I find specific genre or band communities are very accepting unlike what you have explained here
One of the more virulent forms of elitism is often masked by humour or irony. We're at a stage where the genuine elitism (like the john mayer example) is universally understood to be impossible to argue, so the terms 'patrician' and 'pleb' are used ironically. However, now the irony is flipped to come across as more genuine again. The oversaturation of these terms lead to a point where it's questionable where the irony starts or ends. So now the humour is a mask for elitism. If you were to call someone plebian and they get annoyed, you can cast it off as a joke or under the guise of irony. Yet the true meaning of the word still persists in intent and effect. In my mind the mocking of the more entry level elitism has replaced the initial problem.
I do see elitism happening in music, and as much as I love metal, Metalheads can be some of the worst fans online. They make it difficult for the rest of us to defend heavy metal. I have become frustrated after trying to explain to countless people why I love prog. Not because they don't like it, but because of their almost disgusted reactions. Truthfully, it does annoy me sometimes that no one will even TRY to listen to a prog song. It's like they dismiss it before even hearing it, and that isn't right. I at least try to listen to modern, top 40 hits sometimes.
I have found /r/music to be the worst place to discuss music in that way but partly because it's so big. I've found the smaller the community generally the better and more supportive the discussion is. I started out discussing music on Reddit and found a forum off of that and a group chat off of that so I have kind of culled the people I discuss music with to people I know I can have good conversations with so I don't have to deal with the snobbery as much. Also yes, I have at times had to remind myself not to be a music snob.
I deeply hate those elitism behaviours in some music communities but at the same time I did have those kind of spontaneous elitist thoughts while sitting with some of my friends but i do never blame them, they maybe do not have the time and the interest to dig and explore new stuff and rather listen to the last french/american mainstream rap charts on youtube while rolling joints. They prefer the easy way and they re happy with it. I do sometimes suggest a Track, i ll be glad if they like it otherwise we ll sit together and enjoy the joints..
I’m in high school right now and I feel like a pretentious hipster for listening to less popular music in comparison to what my friends listen to even though in comparison to what Oliver talks about, their pretty well known bands anyways. There even genres I can never get into because there just hard for me to vibe to but that’s still okay because I still appreciate the talent that goes into making the music anyways.
To a degree I don’t actually judge people because of their music taste, but I don’t think it’s completely invalid entirely, not talking about hatred but the media people consume does reflect their personality to some degree. If someone listens to the equivalent McDonalds top 40 hits, music is just probably not their passion like others in the community Maybe it could be broken down more into “why” people listen to music, some want to be in the popular cool kid club, some really want to explore the amazing things out there and challenge themselves to find more and interesting things
It goes back to the experience when you ask someone what music they like or what music they listen to, their answer is "I like everything" or even "I listen to everything" which is obviously not true. A friend of mine would (objectively) just tell them "no, you like everything on the radio" or "no, you don't listen to everything, you listen to the radio." I've come to conclude the large majority of people who spend time online talking about music are still being influenced like lemmings by either media sources like Pitchfork (or Fantano even), or their contemporaries are so much, on a 2nd or 3rd degree of separation, they still are. Even how music is consumed: Once MP3 players and iTunes came around, a large majority of the demographic that buy music were influenced to consume all the music they wanted in that form. And in the last 5-10 years, it's now become Streaming (Spotify). I suppose it can be traced back to MTV originally. People are sheep. In all forms of entertainment and art I suppose. Music maybe stands out in a lot of ways, both in what music and how the music is consumed. As much as I would like it to change (I avoid linking things like Pitchfork and Spotify whenever I can), I just doubt it ever will.
I know you probably didn't mean it that way but I think this attitude is kind of elitist. What you've observed is true, I agree with you on that but I don't know if it's completely possible to discover/listen to music without any outside influence if it's not your full time job. And I don't understand the need to it. There's ton of stuff out there to listen and you have to have some kind of guide. Sticking to one publication and deem whatever they say good as a masterpiece is a shitty thing to do but following critics with whom your tastes aligned or you found competent in their criticisms (like this channel for example) is helpful, no? Yeah, people in general will be led by these popular media organizations and will be given "the best music right now" by streaming services, but for people who are deeply interested in music as an art form this won't be an issue. Even if it does, why not? Not everyone has to craft unique music taste with a vast knowledge to back it. And I also view streaming as a life changing invention. Without it, I couldn't have known the quarter of the music I listen to know, let alone listen to them. Streaming services have questionable methods, for sure it's not the best way to support the musicians, but not liking them because of the reasons you listed, again, is kind of elitist to me. They do the opposite of what elitists would want, they allow "plebs" to reach "patrician" music. Yeah not everyone steps out of their comfort zone but now there is a way. To me elitism stands on the notion that the rare/less listened music is inherently better which I don't agree. I believe listening to music is a strictly personal experience and there's no right way to do it. If I misunderstood you I'm sorry, but your post and the video got me thinking about this issue and I decided to wrote about it to start some conversation.
Love the way you talk about music. Thanks for sharing. You are very posetive, which is cool, I disagree however in some of the aproach because most people do not have a passion for music. And if you have no passion for music you will not really listen anyways. I am an old musician and it is my sad experience that very few people are interested in listening at all, and if they wanna listen most people prefer old hits they have fond memories connected to. Ever heard a crowd at a consert screaming "play something new"? Most people remember a feeling they once experienced while a song was playing, a night they got laid or something that most times has nothing to do with music. But if you do like to listen to music your taste will evolve. In a way you will be a part of an elite. Of people listening to music and in that way developing the artform. If you really like to listen to music you will not like to hear music that does not express something original. I do not look down upon people that does not like to listen to music, course people are different and focuses on different things in different periods of our lives. But in some ways I feel they are missing out. Just as an athlete would say about me. He is maybe a part of another elite, but I am proud to be a part of the few that likes to listen. So am I an a-hole?
The elitist attitude prevails and is needed in a lot of ONLINE forums because there's no entry fee, commitment, or criteria to access discussion over the internet. The floodgates are open for literally anyone regardless of their experience. /mu/ was much better when it had an extremely elitist attitude. Nowadays the forum is overrun by posts about terrible mainstream hiphop personalities, kpop, and whoever is the flavor-of-the-month hot piece of ass pop singer. There's a level of healthy elitism needed so that an online forum dedicated to a certain topic contains members who have enough knowledge to give some kind of interesting discussion.
the intent behind the use of terms like patrician/ plebian can be tricky to discern. while often these words can be used ironically or in a joking manner, I find that often people will hold legitimately elitist opinions and mask their use of terms like that behind a layer of irony in order to avoid backlash.
i feel like nowadays were getting to a point where the terms "patrician" and "pleb" are becoming more ironic, and general music/chart forums have become less elitist now that listening to albums is a more common activity, but some forums specific to a certain genre or band are still very toxic
Another thing ive noted is that the idea of "gatekeeping" that metal communities spread through their memes is very similar to facebook pages that promote masculinity (memes like "if your boyfriend doesnt drive stick then youve got a girlfriend"), and may have more to do with insecurity than elitism.
People like what people like, and music is such a powerful thing that I seriously think as long as 1 person feels anything positive from it then it's good music. I whole-heartedly hate One Direction and everything related to it, however if you're having a bad day and One Direction will cheer you up, put it up on high volume and enjoy it however you choose to. Sure it would be cool if everyone explored music to their best, but it's just not realistic, I think the discussions should be more like do you like artist X? Yes or no and why and if not let's go to the next one and find what we like in common.
I only play the smart guy with friends sometimes, as joking. I consider myself a very open person and I give at least a chance if not two to everything that comes to my ears. But I cannot be so arrogant against others. I am happy to discover new bands and genres and I love this journey of mine. I love to talk with people that know much more than I know, from whom I can learn. For example thanks to your videos I discovered many bands that I loved from the first hearing and some that I couldn't listen for more than one time, maybe not even a full album. After all we choose with whom we want to talk to about music and to whom we listen to. But nobody has really an excuse to be an arrogant prick.
I see it all the time, mostly on rym and Instagram, because those are the communities I mostly interact with. I’m in this middle ground where, people around you like friends and family think that you’re trying to seem cool with your bands that none of them have heard of and vinyl records (all of which is kept personal and never ‘shown off’ in any way) and people online will dismiss you as “not having any individual taste” and “mucore” because most of your favourite pieces of music are the most critically acclaimed, even if you listen to some more ‘obscure’ artists. Even outside of either of these, you see stereotypes in the media such as the sad and pathetic Radiohead fan. I try to ignore all of the negativity while browsing the online music community, but the truth is it always find a little space in the back of your mind. I think after it all, though, it’s something that will just be and never really go away, so all you can do is live with it and enjoy the time spent listening to your favourite music.
I wish people became more aware of the music that resonates with them. Like, I happen to enjoy a couple of artists because I like the musical ideas they explore, though I’m aware of the fact that technically speaking they’re not very good because they’re not very experienced and their musicianship or mixing leaves something to be desired. I think it’s a combination of being acutely aware of what you like/dislike about certain artists/genres/albums and being similarly aware of what other people seem to like/dislike among your social circles. I think that combo has the triple-edged bonus of having a better idea where to look for music that resonates with you, being more open to other people’s music tastes (not being an elitist), and being more easily able to explain to someone trying to belittle you why you hold the opinion you do (not appearing a pleb).
In a Facebook group, I was once attacked for being a Bowie fan because he was "queer". And told that I should stop the #me too stuff which wasn't even relevant to the discussion. He just said that last part because I'm a woman and he assumed all women were into that movement. What that has to do with Bowie I don't know. And yes, I do think I am better than him. I never would have thought that if he didn't personally attack me though.
I pretty much agree with the whole video :3 Thank You. As for the questions - ELITISM IN MUSIC GROUPS - I only belong to a single music discussion group and it's the aforementioned Patrisian Music Chartposting facebook group. I don't see much elitism there, it's mostly fun and supportive and that's why I like it
Thanks for this video, the reason I watched was because I posted an older Kendrick Lamar song on my Facebook group and someone commented that this is when Kendrick was good and pretty much shitted on all of the newer Kendrick stuff.
I think any community online expects you to do a certain amount of foot work to familiarize yourself with the values of said community. Thats not to say people need to be pricks but its like a nudge to at least listen to something so you can have an opinion on it. For example one community I use everyday is stackoverflow for coding and when I need to ask a question I make sure no one has asked something similar yet, its well explained with example code, and well articulated in what I need it to. If you don't do this sometimes people who answer will be a little condescending but its an effective way of pruning community values or actions. Patrician and pleb could really be described as in the music community and out of the music community really. Its a meme. I think the elitist label permeates music a little more because everybody participates or engages with music in some form, but there is a group of people that engage with music in a more proactive manner (actively explore / discover) than most of the public and thats sort of where the label comes into play. I really think its just like any other niche interest, for example, I've never had any label leveled at me for liking speed running or other nerdy things.
Wow feeling guilty bc I was pretty damned elitist about the jack White album on PMC largely because of your criticism... Made me reconsider my actions.
hey man I know this has nothing to do with the video but I got some bands for you to check out: the first one is called Farewell Dear Ghost, they're from Austria and you should really check out their song "Pink Noise" The next one is also from Austria and is called Polkov, their albums are amazing and last but not least: FewJar they are from berlin and they are incredible love your videos
Definitely a meme now, but just like everything else; there's a handful of people that take it too seriously. I do on occasion catch myself, but usually I do what I can to appreciate music in a pseudo vacuum. The most I do is group it together instead of comparing, because if you're going to only listen to the "best" music, then you'll just end up limiting yourself. Be it to other peoples' interpretations, natural progression or appreciation of the genre and artist, and worst of all; neglecting the development of your tastes in an interest you claim to hold so dear.
It's sad but just check any Coil/NWW/Current93 facebook groups for instance. Everyone correcting everyone and the more active this groups get it sadly when it seems to be a contest about who knows in a more detailed way about everything related to the band..
I don't normally tend to talk too much about music with people asides from when I tweet about bands I'm excited about, but I find my music taste to differ quite a lot from most people round where I live. While I do branch out of what I normally listen to from time to time, I admittedly mainly listen to Hardcore, Post Hardcore, Emo, and Punk etc. It's not that I'm not into stuff from other genres of music, it's just that's the kind of music that I find appeals to me the most. Most people round here seem to either be into Pop or bands like The 1975. While I have respect for other people's opinions, I can sometimes feel a bit alone with my tastes in music. While I try not to be elitist, I can sometimes be what could be considered as 'elitist' when it comes to Emo, mainly because the word has been attached to bands such as My Chemical Romance and Fall Out Boy, and I'm someone who advocates that those bands aren't Emo, but bands like Sunny Day Real Estate, Texas Is The Reason, American Football etc as well as more modern bands like Tiny Moving Parts and Modern Baseball etc. I ended up getting into a brief argument on Facebook last year when a friend posted a status about putting on a local 'Emo night', and I made a jokey comment about how I felt that bands like MCR, FOB, and Panic! At The Disco shouldn't being included, and it ended up escalating a little, making me feel I was 'wrong' for having such an opinion.
Posting this way too late after the fact. But when I was very active on /mu/ from 09-~13 I don't think there was a hint of irony about the elitism. If you weren't in on the flavor of the month unknown album being spammed, you had no say in the goings-on of music at that point in time. Not sure how the community is now, and I imagine just with the wide time gap not many of my former contemporary shit-posters are even still on there. I've definitely fallen trap to these kinds of thought patters but I feel it's just something you mature out of and is natural when you're passionate about anything, conversing with other very passionate people about an art form you love
I'm 43 and recently had a conversation with a 20 year old that went like this:20: What's this!43: It's Peaches by the Stranglers, probably the radio edit. 20: what is it though?43: A lot of people say it's punk but I think they have much more in common with The Doors.20: Who are The Doors?43: Well, you know, Light my Fire, The End, LA woman, that stuff, late 60's early 70's.20: No.43: Riders on the Storm?20: Yeah, I've heard that.The next day Falco was on the work radio with his wonderful song Rock Me Amadeus. 20: Is this The Doors?43: No it isn't, it's quintessential 80's pop.I certainly don't try to be elitist but when your up against that, what else can you be? :) My offer of a playlist was politely declined.
Elitism is the ticket you have to pay to enter any music community, you have to fight your way up the dominance hierarchy of any community and to be honest that is primal and toxic but you have to do it, you just can't escape it whether you like it or not you will always find yourself in places where you feel superior in *musical knowledge* of some genres or inferior in some other places and that's fine by me. the thing i'm against tho is trashing the other opinion for just asking the wrong questions that ultimately aims to educate him more about that genre. like you pointed out in the video, music becomes more personal the more relatable it is to the person enjoying it
I ccannot stand is when underrated bands/ musicians gain quick popularity from a change in path or a sophmore album, when the "fans" suddenly they act like elitist and put down plebs. IE Nate Reuss from Fun. /The Format huge following now. Total saturation when he had already been in the business 10 yrs prior.
It definitely is an issue. I love and frequent PMC, but I always see people who will genuinely call your taste “entry level”, and receive praise for listening to obscure music. It’s fine if people just enjoy exploring the depths of a certain genre; yet it can be tough if you love an album then others laugh at you because “that’s a meme” or “that’s entry level” or “that’s not good *insert genre here*”
I grew up as a kid on reruns of the Monkees TV show, and loved Debbie Gibson as a teen (and still do). So I've always felt I can't judge others on the music they like, and have generally avoided places and people who do. Perhaps the only place where I can be a little elitist is when someone says they like "Everything" in response to the question "what music do you like". I want to say "Oh, awesome! Who's your favorite traditional English folk artist? Do you have a go to raga that you like when listening to Indian classical music? And any recommendations for a good techno-ambient-glitch artist?"
I've been called an elitist bitch before.Here's my take on it, I don't care what you listen to and I won't shame you for what you listen to. Yes, I would be 3x more likely of having a closer relationship with you if we have shared interests, as music. But I won't put you down based on that solely, that's just wrong. Posers, however? That's when I can get mean, just because of how protective I am of the music I listen to. I listen to a lot of goth and metal. And when I see someone trying to fit in because they want to look 'cool' and are not actually passionate about the music? Thats when I have a problem. Its a lifestyle for me and when someone is trying to act a certain way, dress a certain way, but not actually participate in it, I think thats just wrong. The "goth e-girls" that wear f21 black clothing and chokers and call themselves "your goth gf" when they don't even realize the subculture is something based on music is very irritating to me. And I think thats valid.
Great video as always. Elitism is toxic in any form. It's petty and childish. Music is almost 100% subjective. It's designed to be enjoyed. It's mostly emotional, not intellectual. So dismissing people's tastes is silly. If you told me Corey Feldman's Angelic 2 the Core is your favourite album, in all seriousness, I could not possibly care less. You do you. As long as you're not putting others down, I'm not going to put you down. As someone whose music taste is as generic as it gets for someone passionate about music, with my favourite artists being the most commerically successful in history, but also these artists being well over 50 years old (generally), I experience two perspectives of elitism constantly: those who think I'm pretentious or simple because I like things "just because it's old", and those who think my taste is shallow and boring because I like things that are widely highly regarded. I've learned to not care about either. I know I don't listen to things just because it's old, and I don't care whether it's popular or not. Popular things happen to be my most listened to because it's only natural that when exploring music, you'll come across and become interested in things that many people talk about. My music taste will eventually cover the obscure as I grow older and run out of more mainstream artists to get into, and it's not like I listen to exclusively well known artists anyway. I couldn't care less about age. Good music is good music regardless of date released, and I find it childish to dismiss any piece of art because of when it was made. It's more of a teen-early adult attitude. Older people don't have it, which makes sense. I listen to modern music, but rarely because I don't care for modern culture and the stylings of today's pop music. Personal preference. So it only makes sense that when exploring pop, I wouldn't be choosing to listen to styles I don't care for. It's the same reason I don't listen to popular music of the '50s. From what I've heard so far, I don't care for it. I listen to the '50s as much as I do the 2010s and 2020s.
Everyone wants to feel like they're on top sometimes, what actually matters is to what degree you allow that feeling to dictate your actions, which very much includes what you say to people.
A very interesting topic! It made me think that patricians might be more interested in just being a patrician or elitist about a certain music genre than in the music itself. I think a true lover of music could never consider him/herself a patrician, because this rules out the freedom of choosing any kind of music you want to listen to, because you simply love what you hear. Who defines the borders of elitism anyway? Is it elitist to love e.g. Radiohead or is it too obvious? I don't know and I don't care. I just love Radiohead. I am just happy to have this passion and to be able to discover music of all shapes and colours and the stories behind. I worship Michael Jackson as much as I love post punk. I will always consider The Beatles to be THE band of all times. Recently I started to discover the exciting universe of jazz. The list goes on and on. My point is, whoever considers music as an important part of their life, should be contented and stick to the music. Thanks for another great and inspiring video, Oliver!
Christ, so many great comments in less than 24 hours of putting this up! I'll try to read and comment back on as many as I can, thanks for continuing to be such a kick ass community
deep cuts We are all guilty of having elitist views at some point. I’d like to thank you for pointing that out in this video
I wrote you an email. Did you even receive it?
Nostalgia music fanboys are insufferable.
I want to thank you for your channel. I often turn to it for your content and presentation. Likable and well informed. Bravo.
people need to stop living in the past.
I actually listen to silence. That's how 'patrician' my music taste is.
Magic Window must be your favorite song.
Madditude lol
Lol
Isn't that an album by Van Morrison?
Music was a mistake.
My taste is superior than most people in this thread. Here are my top 5.
1. Shrek soundtrack
2. Maroon 5's entire discog (playing at the same time)
3. American Eagle's 2011 summer playlist (playing in Hollister 2018)
4. XXXTENTACION'S demos at 1/4 speed
5. Field recordings of Saklavian wilderness
god bless
Woke
The Shrek soundtrack is actually pretty good
Shrek 2 soundtrack includes Nick Cave and Tom Waits, so that's unironically good.
+puppetking82 Don't forget David Bowie. XD
"Not naming any names" than literally describes /mu/
and rym
what is /mu/ ?
@@niamhcarden5577 /mu/ is a 4chan music discussion forum that has a list of albums they talk about on there- albums they think everyone should know and like
I think elitism happens because serious music listening is very much a niche hobby. Nobody listens to albums, most people only listen to songs. Niche hobbies like that will naturally beget elitism. For every person who listens to an album, there will be ten who listen to an album's tracks on shuffle, and a hundred who play music videos on UA-cam on autoplay.
When I was a wee lad I would often get into such communities for the glamour and the references of being in a community where you could get some in-jokes were fun. Now I'm just old and tired, and mainly talk to good friends about music. Except now we're quite open to low-brow favourites, and even now we poke fun at each other while meaning no harm cus we know we're all entitled to that music which makes us happy. I mean, I bloody love Oasis.
As for if I condescend people who aren't on my music level... kinda. I know that I have listened through hundreds of albums and that it naturally makes me a bit knowledgable about music than other people, but I don't then go out of my way to attack and criticise people for not following the hippest, underground trends in music - or preach my tastes as the only truth. A pretty easy way to blow me off from any friendly conversation is outright stating that an artist makes bad music - even if I agree. It's tone like that that really sticks to the person, not the artist they talk about.
agree, most people do listen to songs. As the good looking guy said in the video. there is a difference between casual music listeners and passionate music listeners.
" think elitism happens because serious music listening is very much a niche hobby. Nobody listens to albums, most people only listen to songs. Niche hobbies like that will naturally beget elitism. For every person who listens to an album, there will be ten who listen to an album's tracks on shuffle, and a hundred who play music videos on UA-cam on autoplay."
Allow me to plagiarize that for a song im building in my head.
On a serious note, this is one of the very few compelling music discussion ive come across so far.
Thank you +deep cuts.
Thanks also to SEGAClownboss
Are you me?
I hate nostalgia tards.
@@OtherBarry4908 yeah ikr, like the ones ruining the synthwave movement
I’m embarrassed to say I’ve certainly had those elitist thoughts while talking to others about music, which I believe comes from an insecurity about liking artists and music that have been deemed “boring” or “too obvious” like you mentioned. While on one hand I’ve been motivated by this judgment to expand my musical horizons and knowledge, I’ve also used that exploration as a way to hoist my own musical ego when it’s feeling bruised
Same here, it can be difficult to keep the inner elitist in check :)
Same
When people listen to the radio and have no standards for their music, how can you not be?
Alien Alibi I think people listen to music for a myriad of reasons. Sometimes people aren’t looking to explore music more deeply and are content with that because they connect with other things in their lives the way that some people connect deeply with music. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, I think it’s simply a preference. Also, all music that is on the radio isn’t inherently bad just because it’s on the radio. It feels like sort of an elitist sentiment that you’re describing with your comment imo
I agree! I think that when you start to get deeper into any music community your opinions can get stronger, as your passion for specific artists and genres grows. It can be really easy to forget how far your taste has come and that not all people listen to music for the same reasons. I struggle SO HARD bc my immediate reaction to a lot of my friends music is "Y U LIKE DIS TRASHHHHH???" And it really kills the dialogue, bc no one wants to talk about music with someone who shoots down everything they enjoy.
To be honest, I do struggle with this. In my group of friends, and basically anyone I know in real life, no one really seems to 'care' about music the way I do. What I mean is that I feel like they experience it in a very different way than I do. Whereas I like to listen to music as an activity; read up about musicians and music theory; and try out all sorts of stuff I've never experienced before, they all seem content just putting on radio music. Heck, I've even got friends who only listen to anime openings, or are only into Eurovision, as far as music goes.
I think to myself each to their own, but I can't help but feel some sort of superiority over these people, at least when it comes to music that is. I try as hard as I can to suppress these feelings, but I'm pretty certain they've manifested, albeit not in the extremest of forms.
So folks, judge my morality:
Am I a filthy elitist, or nah?
I would say both. But i am pretty sure a lot of people have both.
I don't think you're an elitist. Because you like music as a hobby, but your friends don't really like music in that way. For example, maybe someone has read 10 books in his life, and another person has read hundreds of books, knows about movements, genres, authors... the second one is superior in literature knowledge, in my opinion.
You just take music a step further than most people. Music is your hobby and it's not for them. I'm grateful I've discovered some not so common artist that people who are not really into music won't bother to discover, which makes me feel sort of """"superior"""" when it comes to music. Nothing elitist, just a wider taste.
You are probably more knowledgeable and skilled than your friends in respect to music. You are not *superior* to them. I think your feelings are rooted in the notion that what you care about is intrinsically more important than what they care about. That's just my feeling from your comment.
I have the same "problem" as you. I don't think it's being elitist, it's just being more interested. Your friends are probably more interested and research more about other stuff like sports. For example, they could know more about football; all the transfers happening, upcoming new players, lower divisions. That doesn't mean he would be an elitist, he would just be more interested than your average football fan. Of course this is my opinion, but I always saw an elitist as someone who bashes what someone, who is also interested and takes more time into his hobby, likes.
Elitists exist in all music communities. But by far the most elitist are the people in the Rock/Metal communities.
TheGerthax The Elitism for Oldschool Hip-Hop is unreal.
Jarrick Williams thats certainly the most recent one to develop.
The portion of elitists in the Jazz and Classical communities is even bigger.
There are just less of these communities.
Alvin Yakitori among the educated people ive met, if they are jazz majors there's a strong likelihood they are elitists. I met a jazz drummer a couple years ago at my local uni through some work i was doing and asked him about the movie whiplash and he scoffed at me so quick
source: MetalArchives
As a member of Patrician Music Chartposting, I think most times when the word patrician is used, it tends to be either in an ironic way or just to allude to "good" music. I think with time and with frequent use it's lost the elitist meaning that it used to have in these communities.
It's weird to see PMC mentioned somewhere else.
Yeah PMC used to be kinda bad with this but it's really evolved to a more inclusive and light-hearted place, cool (albeit pretty strange) to come across members outside of it
It has lost it's punch really. For pmcp it has always been ironic, the facebook scene is more mature imo
I’m in PMC and I’ve only ever used it ironically
PMC is a shithole get the fuck out while you can
To be honest, it feels like it might be a phase you go through, at least it was for me. You start off not knowing much, learn something and think you're better for doing so (which in a sense is true) and try to show off what you know. It's only when you've learnt enough that you realise there's too much to learn by yourself that you move past this phase.
I certainly remember being a bit elitist about music, both certain genres and even artists within genres i liked, and was a bit of a twat (although gladly didn't actually refer to anyone as a "pleb").
The thing is many people don't continue to expand and get past that mindset, and some don't even get to that point so there's always elitists and the people "below" them.
Sophomoric
I think that happens when you get into anything, you dont know anything, you know something and you think you know everything, then finally you know a good amount but you realize you'll never know everything
First Last it’s called the Dunning-Kruger effect.(I guess)
Jacob Borg that happens to everyone when they discover they’re taste at a certain age
Elitism exist in almost any part of our lives. Film, literature and music are the art forms where I can see the most of this practice. Mainly, because the three can be directed to huge masses or to more selective consumers.
The key to reduce elitism is to have an open minded discussion with the support of arguments. There would not be an absolute truth but you can share your opinion in a friendly way.
I wish more people knew what you just said.
I see it most in memes and music. I’m guilty of partaking in meme elitism, I hope to stop, as no one likes that one fucker that mocks everything and calls it cringey
I think people just need to chill. It's music after all, something people are passionate about because it's personal to them. People need to enjoy what they enjoy, and not try and shun people who haven't explored certain genres as much as them.
Also for the record, I've seen nothing but positivity from the ambient music community. People there are still recommending Music For Airports every day because it's great.
I was often criticized by a group of friends for my choice in music at one time. While they were all into death and doom metal, I also liked listening to weird avant garde music or chiptune. At the time I was discovering just how incredible some artists were in the chiptune community, I was drawn to the ones that had a progressive rock or progressive metal edge like Disasterpiece, and whenever we had social gatherings at the house they wouldn't really let me put on anything I liked because it was gay. I think they often perceived the music I liked to be pretentious too because I was into stuff like Kayo Dot which has often been regarded as difficult to listen to but rewarding once you connect. Its only been until more recent years that I dug into doom and black metal because the genres peaked my interest again but I stopped hanging out with those guys. I just want to be me and listen to what I like without people shitting on it.
mobman47 There’s nothing worse than being the black sheep in terms of music taste - it’d be interesting if everyone in your group listened to completely different stuff, could result in some interesting conversation / friendly debate where nobody’s made to feel left out because nobody fits in xD
I had some friends who were just like this even though I got them into the kind of misic they liked. Luckily they've matured and now have interesting and diverse music tastes and more importantly don't shit on anything that's not in their wheelhouse and are more open to different shit.
There are some great places online that don't judge your taste in music
honestly, people who call any type of music “gay” (unironically) should be disqualified to even talk about someone else’s music taste, let alone bash it. im glad you didnt stop listening to what you like
You would think metal heads of all people would be the most open minded towards strange music, but alas according to so many, if it isn’t early mayhem or some obscure brutal death metal band, it’s apparently for poser scenefags and is not worth listening to.
Plebtrician culture was always jokingly done. Also, cultures like /mu/ also make fun of people who try to be epic ultra patrician with terms like Poseur so it all swings in roundabouts in the messy hypermetaironic culture that fills these communities. Even poseur has been reclaimed in a sense and people call themselves that and post essential poseurcore charts among other things
Irony has cured and poisoned me.
This is probably the best vid that you've done. The dead meme montage made me want to gouge my eyes out.
Apologies for the threat to your eyes Harry
NP. In referring to your question about being elitist towards certain types of musics, I tend do avoid do so as its kind of pointless. For example, a few of my mates are really into 6ix9ine but just because I hate his music and think that he's a terrible person, I'm not gonna dislike them or look down on them due to what they listen to. Like what you want and if someone slags you off about it, then its not the end of the world.
Gouge away... You can gouge awayyyy
Cosmogramma, nice.
Elitism is an interesting concept when it comes to music as those are a deeply ingrained in music and music culture don't always have "popular tastes" so it comes probably from a place of ostracism, people want to feel special, when it gets dangerous is when you are trying to either deny yourself, or others the right to enjoy things. For example one of my favourite bands ever is the seminal death metal band death, and I have a deep love of jazz and post punk; to a general audience of people these are semi fringe genres, but by liking these I'm not going to lie to myself and say that Dua Lipas "new rules" doesn't slap, because it does slap so hard and is a good song. Your taste is your taste, like what you want, who's arsed
This reminds me of a joke:
Q "How many hipsters does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"
A "Well. It's this really obscure number.... you've probably never heard of it before...".
This joke subverts elitism & jabs at an attitude that comes from a place that is no different than schoolyard bullying. If I like a Venetian Snares record but I also get WAY into some Anne Murray.... and you KNOCK me for that, I simply no longer know what you are talking about. Convo, over. You are precisely trying to get into my pants or someone else's pants by appearing superior. Music is love and music can be sex, but only a slap-monkey would ever use their own taste in it to garner a sense of identity or individuality or, especially, a power over others.... Thank you, Oliver, for suggesting this, subtly, in the way that you do. You are a peace-bringer.
I remember picking up on my best friend when we were 15 because his favorite band was Gunsn'Roses and mine Sigur Ros. At first when we showed ourselves songs (we're both musicians) it was clear that we had very different tastes in music, but he tried to comprehend or give the song a chance, sometimes he would say he liked it even though i could read from his body language that he didn't. In my case, I was not that kind or modest. I remember he kinda cracked when I said that I honestly didn't think that slash was a good guitar player. As the time went by and we were older he kinda stopped trying to understand whatever trendy/obscure shit was hyped.
He chose his own path on a legitimately true taste to himself. Meanwhile I was introduced to /mu/ and I was very exited to found a community that had my interests in music, but later it became pretty clear to me that there was a competitive and elitist ambient in much of the pages threads, a never-ending competition on whom had the obscurest taste and edgier opinions. (I was once picked on a thread because i dared to say In Limbo was my favorite track from Kid A).
Nowadays I kinda envy him for staying true to what he actually liked and not what edgy patricians told him to like. Music is such a wide and infinite spectrum and IMO the more you listen to it as for what it is and not what it represents, your criteria and enjoyment will be more true and real to yourself. It sounds obvious but it's harder than it sounds.
admin of Patrician Music Chartposting here, thanks for the mention! really happy we aren't seen as being too elitist as we definitely started out that way.
Definitely see a lot of elitism in music (and other subcultures too); even more since I started learning how to play guitar. A lot of people just really think stating their opinion in the meanest way possible makes them correct or they want to make other people feel bad for not knowing as much as they do. I think these people tend to think that appreciating music means being able to recall facts like google search and know all these technical things so that when they encounter someone who is a novice who doesn’t know jargon or a particular artist or song, people attack them as not being a “real” fan. When I was like 12, I used to think the only good music was Rock music but then I got interested in music as an art form and looked into theory and now I don’t think there are bad genres anymore, just particular ones that don’t interest me but have merit to other people. I think that’s a lot more of a healthy mindset to have regarding art, honestly.
Shaming people for their music taste is a pretty lame look imo.
Joey LaChance Imagine you're on a date with a nice girl and everything is going great. You ask her what music she likes and she answers she's preaty much into nazi-punk these days. Wouldn't it be hard not to die inside?
Nah. There's some music that is straight garbage. Like narcocorridos. It's coo to be inclusive and like everything. But some shit just sounds weak and uninspired
nazi punk sounds cool
bedhorsegutter It does. In every language I don't understand.
Getting hurt so easily just because of other people's opinions on you seems pretty lame as well
shoutouts to / mu /
i come across people with those types of elitist attitudes yes.
the only elitist thing i do is making fun of christian rock when my mom is listening to it, but that's just me joking around.
i don't look down on others when they like different stuff then i do
This was pretty spot on. For every fan that thinks theyre somehow superior because they listen to a more niched artist, theres one that has a degree of self aware ironic humour about it. HOWEVER, there are certain communities online where actual elitism really takes over. r/radiohead comes to mind as an example. I saw a person ridiculed for saying they subjectively prefer the bends to the rest of their discography. Its that sort of thing that leads to generalizations of fanbases, making them less approachable. It forms a kind of vicious circle.
I listen to a variety of music, from really obscured albums to pop mainstream radio jam. Whenever I'm talking to someone who believes radio pop jam music is worthless I do feel a bit superior to them, because I try to not close myself to anything, I listen to everything I can. It's still not justified, elitism should be respected in order to be fought (if it must even be fought agaisnt).
I don't like some specific mainstream and established artists, but I don't think the people who listen to them are idiots for liking them. Some people dwell deep in music, experiment with their taste, listen to new, weird, exciting stuff. Some are okay with listening to radio jam. And some dwell deep BUT still prefer the radio jam.
I generally feel uncomfortable when someone asks my taste in music because I don't want to come off as a pretentious person, even though I am not. I just listen to music most people I know haven't encountered.
My other thought after watching game your video is that elitism in these communities is often directed at women who want to join the discussion. This is also true for video games, comics, sports, etc other male-dominated groups.
As a metalhead, when I stumble across elitists they are usually assholes, so it's just not restricted to music. Metalheads are really passionate, so, while I agree that it has a fair amount of elitists, there is also a big chunk of extremely kind and helpful people that I rarely meet in any other genre of music.
I’m a high school (just graduated) student and Mumble Rap is the biggest genre of music currently. So a lot of the people would blare Post Malone, XXX, 21 Savage, Lil Pump, etc. I have listen to their lyrics and most of the time it’s either lyrics to just get the teens all hyped (drugs most of the time) or lyrics about depression. Now there are some rappers that are considered Mumble Rap that I enjoy. I do enjoy Lil Peep and one named Jakey. Jakey also has a UA-cam channel called Nakey Jakey, but his music is also very well written. Some very emotional songs. But I have asked people why they listen to Mumble Rap, they either say because they like the sound or because it hypes them up. I don’t know how I feel about Mumble Rap, I don’t hate and I don’t enjoy it. I do see it’s massive impact though, basically birthing the Sad Rap culture. It has definitely made a impact.
I listen to a large variety of music, and I have encountered elitism in almost every damn genre. Classical musicians, lovers of jazz, experimental fanatics, pop supporters, even between subgenres like classic prog rock and modern prog rock. I get through that by separating fans from art.
Didn't the patrician/pleb idea just start with CLT back on /mu/, who was just one dude who smoked weed a lot and loved Zappa? I might have misremembered. For me, though, it always seemed to be tongue-in-cheek from the beginning, though maybe I'm just used to /mu/ now, despite its current poptimist spamming.
Ludos Edos good times
CLT took that stuff very very seriously though.
i think the /lit/ board started it.
H A M P U S
I think the Patrish/Pleb divide predates the introduction of /lit/ but /lit/ was populated by /mu/tants from day 1. but ugh. it's been half a decade since my /mu/ days. I've started and graduated college since I last heard the name hampus
I think there are certainly negative kinds of elitism that I've experienced on facebook and the board that shall not be named, but I don't think what people call elitism is always bad, and in fact is sometimes very good. I remember listening to a lecture on T.S. Eliot and the lecturer talked about how people called Eliot elitist because his poetry is difficult, when actually it was the opposite of elitist because it treated every reader as intelligent enough to apply themselves and read a difficult poem. I think the same can apply to music communities where they can really encourage you to explore new genres because you're expected to, and suddenly you find yourself listening to more exploratory music than you thought you were capable of.
The flipside is that this can encourage you to have a "I'm going to listen to as many albums as possible" approach to listening which really limits the amount you can appreciate an album. I definitely bought into this approach but I'm thankfully starting to shake it now.
Really great video on an interesting topic. I feel that at this stage, the initial wave of outward music elitism on the internet has generally reached a stage of self-parody, indicating that, whilst it still exists, the idea itself is generally ridiculed & I in the last few years I've seen much more of people championing quality mainstream music in more underground music circles, which is a very positive indicator of the decrease in popularity of elitism, or rather elitist contrarianism (which has been seen to be very prevalent at times).
Personally, I always find myself refraining from music conversations with people I know who aren't 'music nerds' in one way or another because I've always felt that I'd be perceived as elitist by people outside of the music community, but maybe that's just me being paranoid haha.
Love these videos, keep up the good work.
I just listen, miss my mom who was a cool music silly & appreciate my 1 younger friend who has a head and heart for this level of understanding & YOUR CHANNEL. thank you.
I love your videos you have broadened my musical spectrum greatly. I tend to stay within the realm of various genres of my youth and teenage years I can go from Fleetwood Mac to Fudge Tunnel to NWA to Lords of Acid to Dead Voices on Air within an hour. I dig all sorts of music not to sound cliche but Music is the best drug. I'm definitely a newbie on many of the groups you have mentioned in the past and will mention in the future, but I do appreciate the education. Much 💚💚 from Sweet Home Alabama.
Elitism exists in real world as well.. Classical / Indian Classical & Jazz seems to have it.. I love many different genres and when I'm trying to get into a new genre i do sense a disdain when I say I'm into rock music..
Mreenal Mams yuuuuuuuuuup, I hear that.
You should try to get an understanding of music before you start hating on it. You should also have an understanding of a genre of music if you make fun of elitists from the genre.
*Rock, punk and metal bands inspired by jazz, classical, Indian classical have entered the chat
that’s so heartbreaking. as a classical musician, when i find out someone from another genre is starting to get into classical music it makes my heart glow and i just want to share all the cool pieces they could experience
If you ever find someone that listens to Deep Cuts shouting out PMC almost obsessively, give that person a hug. Because the people that relate to that music have been through hell and are probably still there.
what does PMC mean?
PMC?
@@wp6007 Patrician Music Chartposting. It's a Facebook group
Is Loud And Quiet a local UK mag? Or can you order online? I'll just google this lol
patrician chart posting gang wassup
hmmm
Yeet.
no [12]
Adrian Steele pleb spotted
mitchel here, whaddup
I went on your discord thinking people would be elitist. They where super nice and introduced me to some amazing artists. I've found that the real heads like really smart people are as the dutch say "not selling the fact".
Nice topic + I really love your channel.
Nobody around me care about music as much as I do, but they never miss a chance to mock my taste.
The only time I would judge someone's taste in music, is if he/she kept on trying to change my mind and telling me what I should listen to instead of what I LOVE.. those people are found in every music discussion (:
The first time I watched this video I didn't know about /mu/core which I discovered a few days. Now I get the references made.
Their essentials charts are great so many good music to listen to.
Yeah I’ve found that the more I’ve started to become invested in the music community (via Reddits and forums), the more intimidated I’m made to feel by others. The Patrician Music Chartposting group is one of the worst places for it, especially when no healthy critique is given to some artists other than them being “plebeian” which has only really start to get on my nerves due to the classist origin. Great video Oli, a class discussion as always!
I am extensively at heart an alt. rock fan, who maybe comes across a little bit elitist sometimes, but similar to you with your John Mayer story, I struggle with the swarms of repetitive soundcloud rappers (as I prefer the like of Kendrick Lamar and MF Doom when it comes to modern hip-hop) and some people at places like school belittle me because I’m happy to listen to some extreme metal sometimes. I get a little bit annoyed when the accuse my of all my music sounding the same, when they listen just to mumble rap or uninventive 4 chord pop music. I admit at times this can make me sound like an elitist, but half the I just want them to try new music they may like that doesn’t necessarily chart.
I have heard people stupid things like the fact some music is good because it is popular, rather than actually analysing the song on it’s merits. I sometimes find these reductionist viewpoints to be as if they are rejecting another person’s right to be an individual, saying because they don’t agree with them they are wrong when it comes to something that is subjective in nature. I would say a great example of this was the new Arctic Monkeys album, which I liked due to the overall vibe and its intricacies in its beautiful production (not forget Alex Turner’s thought inspiring lyrical compositions), but people turned to me saying it was ‘utter wank’ because it wasn’t as hooky as AM, an album that I admittedly was disappointed with. I have a feeling that there is starting to be a slight genre bias in the mainstream against any music that isn’t fitting into a few small sub genres of pop and hip-hop and I feel this limits from exploring music they wouldn’t necessarily hear otherwise.
I don’t experience elitism that much when it comes to the more obscure music communities, especially with punk community which seems to be very inclusive from my experience, but there are the occasional examples though. My love of Nirvana has led me to be called the likes of a ‘wannabe hipster’, as Nirvana ‘got too popular to have any credibility’ which I find elitist to the extreme.
Sorry for the mini-rant. Love the content. Keep it up! Hope everything you had to do for your degree when well!
I agree with you Oliver, although there are extreme examples when you can’t help but judge a person based on their music choices - like if someone is into NSBM and all the lyrics and trappings thereof, then I’m going to give them a wide berth!
In the city I used to live in I had lots of friends who all had their own unique taste in music. It was always great fun to share albums and talk about them over a few drinks. Now ive moved to a really small town to studie and I didnt know anyone when I got here. Everyone i have met here just listen to the radio and dont really care for music in the way I was used to. This became frustrating to me, so I turned sort of elitist for a while. But as I noticed, people got feed up and angry with me. I have learned alot from this, mostly not to take myself to seriously and not to bash on people who just listens to music in a diffrent way. We all listen for different reasons. Great videos btw and sorry if my spelling is off! 👍
i think metal elitism is the worse, for example if i say i like pop or indie i get hated on and bullied immediately and calling me a poser
hip hop elitism is just as bad. you can't even like today's hip hop without 90s and 2000s fanboys bullying you and falsely accuse you of liking mumble rap.
I really appreciate your content and I found this video really interesting, so here’s my take on elitism:
First of all, just to give some context, I do believe that elitism exists, but I don’t view it as a huge problem, just a pain in the ass to deal with, but not something transcendental.
I think that the problem is rooted in the way our language is structured. Let me explain: I think the problem ultimately relies on the existence of adjectives like “good” , “bad” or “better”. Many if us (myself included) use this adjectives when talking about music, although we shouldn’t. Imo, music is completely subjective, there is no such thing as a better piece of music than other and I do believe, most of us think that way. Here’s where the problem strikes: The already mentioned adjectives sound and are meant to be objective value judgements and we use them when talking about subjective topics , like, in this case, music. That’s why I think, we feel much more attacked when somebody tells us an album is better than one that we really like, even when they state that it is just their opinion, in comparison whit when they tell us they like it more. I believe the situation would be a lot better if we instead said: “I like it more”, or “ I dislike this record”, etc.
Id like to thank everyone on the discord for fully embracing me and avoiding laughing at my total lack of knowledge of so many different genres, i have found out about and begun to explore ambient music through lping random albums and talking to people who know more than i do
also i quite like john mayer :) continuum was a great album and i saw him live recently
Great video. On the subject of attacking music tastes/others, I feel like I've put others down in the past to make myself feel superior and I believe that our music taste is inherently tied to our identity so that definitely made it personal. But I've learned recently that it doesn't really matter what other people listen to. Music is like a Magic Eye puzzle; sometimes you see it and sometimes you don't but you've got to respect what other people like because at the end of the day they enjoy it.
💕💥 just always pleased w the enormity of your understanding & depth.
I wouldn't say I ever think less of a person for what music they like or consume but I would say I find myself judging people who only listen to certain styles and genres as people that just don't take their love or interest in music as seriously as I do (which is perfectly fine). Sometimes this comes off as elitist but it's only because as you said in the video, when music is something that resonates so personally and significantly with someone, they will be more passionate about it. It's only elitist if you claim to be "better" or "smarter" than someone else because of differing taste or opinions.
I'd say I'm pretty much like that too.
Welcome back! Glad you finished your degree! Just the other day I was discussing musical elitism with a friend; you could not have made this at a better time. Brilliant work, as always.
Great video Oliver! One thing I would extrapolate on is that since most expressions of musical elitism are written online (and relatively anonymous) it can be hard to detect sarcasm, which can easily lead to miscommunication. So the “problem” of musical elitism could seem bigger just because some people see it as funny, while others interpret it at face value. In person, with body language and more clear forms of communication, I rarely find elitism to be an issue. Pretty obvious point, but I think the medium effects the psychological and sociological impact of the elitism discussion.
I would often say that taste can't be discussed whereas quality can. You can call it elitism if you want, but some music IS better than other, either because it is better crafted, has more artistic layers, is more expressive (in the broadest possible sense of the word) etc. But then our judgement is always shaped by our cultural ambience in any case. For my own part, I have a formal education in musicology, so I would sometimes come across music which is loved by many but which I - based on my theoretical knowledge - think is poor or badly crafted. At the same time I am also aware that there may be artistic dimensions which I miss because of my cultural background. But I do think very little of some of the music coming out of the pop radio today, especially when it is autotuned and things like that - and yes, I believe autotune is killing the artistic subtlety of the vocal performance. On the other hand I really like a good pop song too.
My main preferences include classical music, some jazz, the more intellectual corners of pop and rock, traditional folk music and sometimes electronic music (the more experimental corners of it). I also try to look beyond the Danish (my home country) as well as the Anglo-American music scene whose cultural dominance I see as a sort of elitism too. You can find many interesting kinds of music from many corners of the world, but it is largely ignored by the global mainstream audience, except locally. But my favourite music includes a lot of Anglo-American stuff as well.
It's just the typical problem with people being afraid of being different that appears with any insecure person in any group. Just emptily stating one has the same opinions as others to get approval should be more shameful than any backlash you'd receive for being honest with yourself.
I think industrial music communities have a lot of pretentious and elitist people, even to other sub-genres of industrial and post-industrial music. People always arguing what is “true” industrial, shitting on mainstream industrial acts like NIN, shitting on artists that fuse industrial music with other genres such aa hip-hop etc.
That globe lamp on the right is dope.
Amazing video!
Yes sometimes I have elitist thoughts in my head but I always try to play it cool on the outside
Great video! I have seen alot more of the toxic kind of elitism than I'm happy to admit. Online and irl. But that's just my personal experience. People take music very serious which I completely respect, but I think you should build people in these communities up and suggest what you think would improve their music taste instead of just blindly hating on any Twenty One Pilots fan or whatever.
This sounds like most of the kids I hung around with in high school. I was the pleb because I liked Interpol and everyone else was cool because they liked metal bands
I'm a member of a few music communities, including PMC and the Deep Cuts discord, and I wouldn't say I see elitism that often in all honestly, at least not directly, though it does still happen from time to time and it can be frustrating.
I think its prevalence has a lot to do with the culture that is set within that community... for instance in PMC it seems there has been a concerted effort to reduce that kind of behaviour by turning the whole patrician/pleb thing into a meme, whereas I've been a member of more serious communities, often dedicated to one band, that seem to ostracise people who don't have that band as their absolute favourite and even question why they are there. And, in such places, there isn't really anything to discourage that behaviour which is why it got so bad. Some people will be toxic and elitist regardless of the group but that's more a reflection on them and their personalities, I don't think it's something inherent to music communites necessarily. For instance I posted a festival lineup on PMC highlighting the artists I was planning to see, and while most people were saying "if you like x then you might also want to check out y" and giving helpful feedback, you had a few others saying "you want to see z? really?" and "how can you not want to see so-and-so lol" and just being negative and judgemental as if there was something seriously wrong with me.
As for myself being elitist, the way I judge the taste is less to do with "this person knows nothing about music" or anything like that (I will admit that I'm still in the early stages of my musical discovery and kind of an amateur, so I'm in no position to judge), but for me music is something I find it easy to bond over and if there's no overlap between another's preferences and mine then I'd probably think "I can't really relate to this person musically", which can work against me in trying to interact with people.
Though I think a lot of the insecurities I feel about music is to do more with the limitations I'm under as far as expanding my taste goes... for example, I'm one of those people that buys all their music (with streaming being inconvenient for me personally as I mostly use an iPod classic), so while I enjoy the aspect of collecting physical copies, it means that because of my lack of money I'm not able to discover things very often, and definitely have no means to really explore niche subgenres. I have this huge backlog of stuff I can't even begin to try and get through while everyone else is somehow able to listen to 30 new albums every week and I'm stuck with what I have. Additionally when people post their top 100 charts and I either haven't listened to or even don't recognise ANY of them it can be disheartening as I then feel that my taste is basic and I can't keep up. Some genres I just don't enjoy, some I would like to get more into but don't know where to start, some artist discographies are just too imposing. I want to explore more musical avenues and be more open but I'm not able to and it sucks. But again, that's more to do with my own issues than anything other people have made me feel.
To summarise, music elitism does exist but there are things that can be done to mitigate it effectively, though I think more could also be done to actively include people.
(sorry for the essay haha, I just couldn't stop writing)
You made me remind when I was a little boy and Reggaeton just boom in my country (I'm Colombian) and it hasn't stoped since. I remember that cause I didn't like that type of music and I regulary said: "This should be banned!". My argument was that Reggaeton was offensive towards women. Now that i'm old I thing that banning a particular type of music is a very facist thing to do, and I use to think that very strongly.
I actually do come across certain people like this on both sides of the spectrum on a very regular basis. As a college student the majority of people listening casually to The pop/rap/RandB wave at the moment are very toxic towards people who don’t listen to that type of music and are branded as weirdos and something to be ridiculed for but on the flip side in a much more indie community I find there’s a lot of elitism against those types of people which may or may not be born of the elitism from the chart music fans reactions to different tastes but I have to say music elitism is still as rife as it ever has been but at least it’s better than a general disinterest, it proves young people are still passionate about music but elitism is grating. Luckily I find specific genre or band communities are very accepting unlike what you have explained here
One of the more virulent forms of elitism is often masked by humour or irony. We're at a stage where the genuine elitism (like the john mayer example) is universally understood to be impossible to argue, so the terms 'patrician' and 'pleb' are used ironically. However, now the irony is flipped to come across as more genuine again. The oversaturation of these terms lead to a point where it's questionable where the irony starts or ends.
So now the humour is a mask for elitism. If you were to call someone plebian and they get annoyed, you can cast it off as a joke or under the guise of irony. Yet the true meaning of the word still persists in intent and effect.
In my mind the mocking of the more entry level elitism has replaced the initial problem.
I do see elitism happening in music, and as much as I love metal, Metalheads can be some of the worst fans online. They make it difficult for the rest of us to defend heavy metal.
I have become frustrated after trying to explain to countless people why I love prog. Not because they don't like it, but because of their almost disgusted reactions. Truthfully, it does annoy me sometimes that no one will even TRY to listen to a prog song. It's like they dismiss it before even hearing it, and that isn't right. I at least try to listen to modern, top 40 hits sometimes.
I have found /r/music to be the worst place to discuss music in that way but partly because it's so big. I've found the smaller the community generally the better and more supportive the discussion is. I started out discussing music on Reddit and found a forum off of that and a group chat off of that so I have kind of culled the people I discuss music with to people I know I can have good conversations with so I don't have to deal with the snobbery as much. Also yes, I have at times had to remind myself not to be a music snob.
I deeply hate those elitism behaviours in some music communities but at the same time I did have those kind of spontaneous elitist thoughts while sitting with some of my friends but i do never blame them, they maybe do not have the time and the interest to dig and explore new stuff and rather listen to the last french/american mainstream rap charts on youtube while rolling joints. They prefer the easy way and they re happy with it. I do sometimes suggest a Track, i ll be glad if they like it otherwise we ll sit together and enjoy the joints..
I’m in high school right now and I feel like a pretentious hipster for listening to less popular music in comparison to what my friends listen to even though in comparison to what Oliver talks about, their pretty well known bands anyways. There even genres I can never get into because there just hard for me to vibe to but that’s still okay because I still appreciate the talent that goes into making the music anyways.
To a degree I don’t actually judge people because of their music taste, but I don’t think it’s completely invalid entirely, not talking about hatred but the media people consume does reflect their personality to some degree. If someone listens to the equivalent McDonalds top 40 hits, music is just probably not their passion like others in the community
Maybe it could be broken down more into “why” people listen to music, some want to be in the popular cool kid club, some really want to explore the amazing things out there and challenge themselves to find more and interesting things
It goes back to the experience when you ask someone what music they like or what music they listen to, their answer is "I like everything" or even "I listen to everything" which is obviously not true.
A friend of mine would (objectively) just tell them "no, you like everything on the radio" or "no, you don't listen to everything, you listen to the radio."
I've come to conclude the large majority of people who spend time online talking about music are still being influenced like lemmings by either media sources like Pitchfork (or Fantano even), or their contemporaries are so much, on a 2nd or 3rd degree of separation, they still are.
Even how music is consumed: Once MP3 players and iTunes came around, a large majority of the demographic that buy music were influenced to consume all the music they wanted in that form. And in the last 5-10 years, it's now become Streaming (Spotify).
I suppose it can be traced back to MTV originally.
People are sheep. In all forms of entertainment and art I suppose. Music maybe stands out in a lot of ways, both in what music and how the music is consumed.
As much as I would like it to change (I avoid linking things like Pitchfork and Spotify whenever I can), I just doubt it ever will.
I know you probably didn't mean it that way but I think this attitude is kind of elitist. What you've observed is true, I agree with you on that but I don't know if it's completely possible to discover/listen to music without any outside influence if it's not your full time job. And I don't understand the need to it. There's ton of stuff out there to listen and you have to have some kind of guide. Sticking to one publication and deem whatever they say good as a masterpiece is a shitty thing to do but following critics with whom your tastes aligned or you found competent in their criticisms (like this channel for example) is helpful, no? Yeah, people in general will be led by these popular media organizations and will be given "the best music right now" by streaming services, but for people who are deeply interested in music as an art form this won't be an issue. Even if it does, why not? Not everyone has to craft unique music taste with a vast knowledge to back it.
And I also view streaming as a life changing invention. Without it, I couldn't have known the quarter of the music I listen to know, let alone listen to them. Streaming services have questionable methods, for sure it's not the best way to support the musicians, but not liking them because of the reasons you listed, again, is kind of elitist to me. They do the opposite of what elitists would want, they allow "plebs" to reach "patrician" music. Yeah not everyone steps out of their comfort zone but now there is a way.
To me elitism stands on the notion that the rare/less listened music is inherently better which I don't agree. I believe listening to music is a strictly personal experience and there's no right way to do it.
If I misunderstood you I'm sorry, but your post and the video got me thinking about this issue and I decided to wrote about it to start some conversation.
Love the way you talk about music. Thanks for sharing. You are very posetive, which is cool, I disagree however in some of the aproach because most people do not have a passion for music. And if you have no passion for music you will not really listen anyways. I am an old musician and it is my sad experience that very few people are interested in listening at all, and if they wanna listen most people prefer old hits they have fond memories connected to. Ever heard a crowd at a consert screaming "play something new"? Most people remember a feeling they once experienced while a song was playing, a night they got laid or something that most times has nothing to do with music. But if you do like to listen to music your taste will evolve. In a way you will be a part of an elite. Of people listening to music and in that way developing the artform. If you really like to listen to music you will not like to hear music that does not express something original. I do not look down upon people that does not like to listen to music, course people are different and focuses on different things in different periods of our lives. But in some ways I feel they are missing out. Just as an athlete would say about me. He is maybe a part of another elite, but I am proud to be a part of the few that likes to listen. So am I an a-hole?
The elitist attitude prevails and is needed in a lot of ONLINE forums because there's no entry fee, commitment, or criteria to access discussion over the internet. The floodgates are open for literally anyone regardless of their experience. /mu/ was much better when it had an extremely elitist attitude. Nowadays the forum is overrun by posts about terrible mainstream hiphop personalities, kpop, and whoever is the flavor-of-the-month hot piece of ass pop singer. There's a level of healthy elitism needed so that an online forum dedicated to a certain topic contains members who have enough knowledge to give some kind of interesting discussion.
This just makes my day better
the intent behind the use of terms like patrician/ plebian can be tricky to discern. while often these words can be used ironically or in a joking manner, I find that often people will hold legitimately elitist opinions and mask their use of terms like that behind a layer of irony in order to avoid backlash.
i feel like nowadays were getting to a point where the terms "patrician" and "pleb" are becoming more ironic, and general music/chart forums have become less elitist now that listening to albums is a more common activity, but some forums specific to a certain genre or band are still very toxic
Another thing ive noted is that the idea of "gatekeeping" that metal communities spread through their memes is very similar to facebook pages that promote masculinity (memes like "if your boyfriend doesnt drive stick then youve got a girlfriend"), and may have more to do with insecurity than elitism.
I think all forms of elitism (at less the kinds commonly found and born on the Internet) are more about insecurity rather than true elitism
People like what people like, and music is such a powerful thing that I seriously think as long as 1 person feels anything positive from it then it's good music. I whole-heartedly hate One Direction and everything related to it, however if you're having a bad day and One Direction will cheer you up, put it up on high volume and enjoy it however you choose to.
Sure it would be cool if everyone explored music to their best, but it's just not realistic, I think the discussions should be more like do you like artist X? Yes or no and why and if not let's go to the next one and find what we like in common.
I love your channel, and this video is the best. You change the way that i see the songs that i like/dislike.
I only play the smart guy with friends sometimes, as joking. I consider myself a very open person and I give at least a chance if not two to everything that comes to my ears. But I cannot be so arrogant against others. I am happy to discover new bands and genres and I love this journey of mine. I love to talk with people that know much more than I know, from whom I can learn. For example thanks to your videos I discovered many bands that I loved from the first hearing and some that I couldn't listen for more than one time, maybe not even a full album. After all we choose with whom we want to talk to about music and to whom we listen to. But nobody has really an excuse to be an arrogant prick.
I see it all the time, mostly on rym and Instagram, because those are the communities I mostly interact with. I’m in this middle ground where, people around you like friends and family think that you’re trying to seem cool with your bands that none of them have heard of and vinyl records (all of which is kept personal and never ‘shown off’ in any way) and people online will dismiss you as “not having any individual taste” and “mucore” because most of your favourite pieces of music are the most critically acclaimed, even if you listen to some more ‘obscure’ artists. Even outside of either of these, you see stereotypes in the media such as the sad and pathetic Radiohead fan. I try to ignore all of the negativity while browsing the online music community, but the truth is it always find a little space in the back of your mind. I think after it all, though, it’s something that will just be and never really go away, so all you can do is live with it and enjoy the time spent listening to your favourite music.
I wish people became more aware of the music that resonates with them. Like, I happen to enjoy a couple of artists because I like the musical ideas they explore, though I’m aware of the fact that technically speaking they’re not very good because they’re not very experienced and their musicianship or mixing leaves something to be desired. I think it’s a combination of being acutely aware of what you like/dislike about certain artists/genres/albums and being similarly aware of what other people seem to like/dislike among your social circles. I think that combo has the triple-edged bonus of having a better idea where to look for music that resonates with you, being more open to other people’s music tastes (not being an elitist), and being more easily able to explain to someone trying to belittle you why you hold the opinion you do (not appearing a pleb).
In a Facebook group, I was once attacked for being a Bowie fan because he was "queer". And told that I should stop the #me too stuff which wasn't even relevant to the discussion. He just said that last part because I'm a woman and he assumed all women were into that movement. What that has to do with Bowie I don't know. And yes, I do think I am better than him. I never would have thought that if he didn't personally attack me though.
I'm a recovering techno purist.
Nah, fuck that, I'm an unashamed techno purist.
I pretty much agree with the whole video :3 Thank You.
As for the questions - ELITISM IN MUSIC GROUPS - I only belong to a single music discussion group and it's the aforementioned Patrisian Music Chartposting facebook group. I don't see much elitism there, it's mostly fun and supportive and that's why I like it
Thanks for this video, the reason I watched was because I posted an older Kendrick Lamar song on my Facebook group and someone commented that this is when Kendrick was good and pretty much shitted on all of the newer Kendrick stuff.
I think any community online expects you to do a certain amount of foot work to familiarize yourself with the values of said community. Thats not to say people need to be pricks but its like a nudge to at least listen to something so you can have an opinion on it. For example one community I use everyday is stackoverflow for coding and when I need to ask a question I make sure no one has asked something similar yet, its well explained with example code, and well articulated in what I need it to. If you don't do this sometimes people who answer will be a little condescending but its an effective way of pruning community values or actions.
Patrician and pleb could really be described as in the music community and out of the music community really. Its a meme. I think the elitist label permeates music a little more because everybody participates or engages with music in some form, but there is a group of people that engage with music in a more proactive manner (actively explore / discover) than most of the public and thats sort of where the label comes into play. I really think its just like any other niche interest, for example, I've never had any label leveled at me for liking speed running or other nerdy things.
As a member of the Facebook music discussion group Patrician Music Chartposting: You Wish You Were This Patrish, I feel called out.
Wow feeling guilty bc I was pretty damned elitist about the jack White album on PMC largely because of your criticism... Made me reconsider my actions.
hey man I know this has nothing to do with the video but I got some bands for you to check out:
the first one is called Farewell Dear Ghost, they're from Austria and you should really check out their song "Pink Noise"
The next one is also from Austria and is called Polkov, their albums are amazing
and last but not least: FewJar they are from berlin and they are incredible
love your videos
Definitely a meme now, but just like everything else; there's a handful of people that take it too seriously. I do on occasion catch myself, but usually I do what I can to appreciate music in a pseudo vacuum. The most I do is group it together instead of comparing, because if you're going to only listen to the "best" music, then you'll just end up limiting yourself. Be it to other peoples' interpretations, natural progression or appreciation of the genre and artist, and worst of all; neglecting the development of your tastes in an interest you claim to hold so dear.
It's sad but just check any Coil/NWW/Current93 facebook groups for instance. Everyone correcting everyone and the more active this groups get it sadly when it seems to be a contest about who knows in a more detailed way about everything related to the band..
I don't normally tend to talk too much about music with people asides from when I tweet about bands I'm excited about, but I find my music taste to differ quite a lot from most people round where I live. While I do branch out of what I normally listen to from time to time, I admittedly mainly listen to Hardcore, Post Hardcore, Emo, and Punk etc. It's not that I'm not into stuff from other genres of music, it's just that's the kind of music that I find appeals to me the most. Most people round here seem to either be into Pop or bands like The 1975. While I have respect for other people's opinions, I can sometimes feel a bit alone with my tastes in music.
While I try not to be elitist, I can sometimes be what could be considered as 'elitist' when it comes to Emo, mainly because the word has been attached to bands such as My Chemical Romance and Fall Out Boy, and I'm someone who advocates that those bands aren't Emo, but bands like Sunny Day Real Estate, Texas Is The Reason, American Football etc as well as more modern bands like Tiny Moving Parts and Modern Baseball etc. I ended up getting into a brief argument on Facebook last year when a friend posted a status about putting on a local 'Emo night', and I made a jokey comment about how I felt that bands like MCR, FOB, and Panic! At The Disco shouldn't being included, and it ended up escalating a little, making me feel I was
'wrong' for having such an opinion.
Posting this way too late after the fact. But when I was very active on /mu/ from 09-~13 I don't think there was a hint of irony about the elitism. If you weren't in on the flavor of the month unknown album being spammed, you had no say in the goings-on of music at that point in time. Not sure how the community is now, and I imagine just with the wide time gap not many of my former contemporary shit-posters are even still on there. I've definitely fallen trap to these kinds of thought patters but I feel it's just something you mature out of and is natural when you're passionate about anything, conversing with other very passionate people about an art form you love
I'm 43 and recently had a conversation with a 20 year old that went like this:20: What's this!43: It's Peaches by the Stranglers, probably the radio edit. 20: what is it though?43: A lot of people say it's punk but I think they have much more in common with The Doors.20: Who are The Doors?43: Well, you know, Light my Fire, The End, LA woman, that stuff, late 60's early 70's.20: No.43: Riders on the Storm?20: Yeah, I've heard that.The next day Falco was on the work radio with his wonderful song Rock Me Amadeus. 20: Is this The Doors?43: No it isn't, it's quintessential 80's pop.I certainly don't try to be elitist but when your up against that, what else can you be? :) My offer of a playlist was politely declined.
Elitism is the ticket you have to pay to enter any music community, you have to fight your way up the dominance hierarchy of any community and to be honest that is primal and toxic but you have to do it, you just can't escape it whether you like it or not you will always find yourself in places where you feel superior in *musical knowledge* of some genres or inferior in some other places and that's fine by me. the thing i'm against tho is trashing the other opinion for just asking the wrong questions that ultimately aims to educate him more about that genre. like you pointed out in the video, music becomes more personal the more relatable it is to the person enjoying it
I ccannot stand is when underrated bands/ musicians gain quick popularity from a change in path or a sophmore album, when the "fans" suddenly they act like elitist and put down plebs. IE Nate Reuss from Fun. /The Format huge following now. Total saturation when he had already been in the business 10 yrs prior.
It definitely is an issue. I love and frequent PMC, but I always see people who will genuinely call your taste “entry level”, and receive praise for listening to obscure music. It’s fine if people just enjoy exploring the depths of a certain genre; yet it can be tough if you love an album then others laugh at you because “that’s a meme” or “that’s entry level” or “that’s not good *insert genre here*”
I grew up as a kid on reruns of the Monkees TV show, and loved Debbie Gibson as a teen (and still do). So I've always felt I can't judge others on the music they like, and have generally avoided places and people who do.
Perhaps the only place where I can be a little elitist is when someone says they like "Everything" in response to the question "what music do you like". I want to say "Oh, awesome! Who's your favorite traditional English folk artist? Do you have a go to raga that you like when listening to Indian classical music? And any recommendations for a good techno-ambient-glitch artist?"
I've been called an elitist bitch before.Here's my take on it, I don't care what you listen to and I won't shame you for what you listen to. Yes, I would be 3x more likely of having a closer relationship with you if we have shared interests, as music. But I won't put you down based on that solely, that's just wrong. Posers, however? That's when I can get mean, just because of how protective I am of the music I listen to. I listen to a lot of goth and metal. And when I see someone trying to fit in because they want to look 'cool' and are not actually passionate about the music? Thats when I have a problem. Its a lifestyle for me and when someone is trying to act a certain way, dress a certain way, but not actually participate in it, I think thats just wrong. The "goth e-girls" that wear f21 black clothing and chokers and call themselves "your goth gf" when they don't even realize the subculture is something based on music is very irritating to me. And I think thats valid.
Great video as always. Elitism is toxic in any form. It's petty and childish. Music is almost 100% subjective. It's designed to be enjoyed. It's mostly emotional, not intellectual. So dismissing people's tastes is silly. If you told me Corey Feldman's Angelic 2 the Core is your favourite album, in all seriousness, I could not possibly care less. You do you. As long as you're not putting others down, I'm not going to put you down.
As someone whose music taste is as generic as it gets for someone passionate about music, with my favourite artists being the most commerically successful in history, but also these artists being well over 50 years old (generally), I experience two perspectives of elitism constantly: those who think I'm pretentious or simple because I like things "just because it's old", and those who think my taste is shallow and boring because I like things that are widely highly regarded. I've learned to not care about either. I know I don't listen to things just because it's old, and I don't care whether it's popular or not. Popular things happen to be my most listened to because it's only natural that when exploring music, you'll come across and become interested in things that many people talk about. My music taste will eventually cover the obscure as I grow older and run out of more mainstream artists to get into, and it's not like I listen to exclusively well known artists anyway. I couldn't care less about age. Good music is good music regardless of date released, and I find it childish to dismiss any piece of art because of when it was made. It's more of a teen-early adult attitude. Older people don't have it, which makes sense.
I listen to modern music, but rarely because I don't care for modern culture and the stylings of today's pop music. Personal preference. So it only makes sense that when exploring pop, I wouldn't be choosing to listen to styles I don't care for. It's the same reason I don't listen to popular music of the '50s. From what I've heard so far, I don't care for it. I listen to the '50s as much as I do the 2010s and 2020s.
Everyone wants to feel like they're on top sometimes, what actually matters is to what degree you allow that feeling to dictate your actions, which very much includes what you say to people.
A very interesting topic! It made me think that patricians might be more interested in just being a patrician or elitist about a certain music genre than in the music itself. I think a true lover of music could never consider him/herself a patrician, because this rules out the freedom of choosing any kind of music you want to listen to, because you simply love what you hear. Who defines the borders of elitism anyway? Is it elitist to love e.g. Radiohead or is it too obvious? I don't know and I don't care. I just love Radiohead.
I am just happy to have this passion and to be able to discover music of all shapes and colours and the stories behind. I worship Michael Jackson as much as I love post punk. I will always consider The Beatles to be THE band of all times. Recently I started to discover the exciting universe of jazz. The list goes on and on.
My point is, whoever considers music as an important part of their life, should be contented and stick to the music.
Thanks for another great and inspiring video, Oliver!
I really love this channel, thanks for this great video man ;)