The reason why these kinds of discussions resonate so well with so many is there are billions of us who are logical, thoughtful, and curious and we are starving to hear intelligent and interesting conversation instead of the mind numbing bullshit that is constantly fed to us on a daily basis.
Very few of us are truly logical or thoughtful. All of us are driven by emotions which most pretend to be based on rational thought. Few truly employ real conceptual thinking to most issues. However, people who effectively put across rational ideas on complex issues can be refreshing for many of us. Plus give us food for thought.
@@iain5615 Everyone is driven by emotions - even Zen Buddhists get angry sometimes. Some people are just better at restraining and regulating them long enough to employ rational thinking more often than not.
Based on observations made in the last 2 years I'd estimate that approximately 20% of the human population is at least INTERESTED in rational thought. So you're not far off - I'd say it's around 1.6 billion people.
@@igg3937 i can agree with that. However, emotions aren't always anger. Desire, greed, etc. play apart and these can lead people to want to believe something that they then try to unconsciously rationalise.
This is the most positive comment section I’ve seen, the result of a meaningful discussion that transcended cynicism. This is an important formula, genuine thinking and genuine listening, all in good faith. It has produced thousands of comments expressing gratitude. Thank you both for breaking the mold of the internet.
the very lovely Sam Harris: "What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime-as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day-but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own. All of this is perfectly insane, of course: I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world’s population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher’s stone, and unicorns."
@@someguy5063 Don't worry religion won't be a reason for the world to plunge into another chaotic war. We'll do that just ourselves without religion. Infact it won't even make sense to use religion as an excuse for war in this day and Age.
@@sxucekey619 my worry isn't religion or war or whatever else he was talking about. my worry is the person whom I quoted. you might want to read what he said once again. this guy is insane!
@@someguy5063 it's pretty eminently reasonable; if a death cultist got hold of a nuke (and a muslim death cultist IS more likely, due at least in part to how modern geopolitics interacts with unique tenets of their historico-religious tradition, such as the concept of jihad and paradise), a first strike would be a necessity; sorry the world isn't unicorns and rainbows like you want it to be. Also to be fair, this was written around 9/11 when the perceived global threat of Islam was at its height- you could probably find many such quotes from the time.
Listened to this a second time... After a 5 month break... This time round, I'm just blown away by SAM'S coolness, calmness, intellect and especially his effortlessness in conveying his perspective. ABSOLUTELY SUPERB 👌👌👌👏👏
We have a saying in my culture - When two elephants fight it’s the grass that suffers. This ‘debate’ between two titans is having the opposite effect. I can feel myself growing. Thank You JBP and Sam Harris
Kindness can flow between two people who disagree, this is the watermark of our humanity. I appreciate that a friendship can be cultivated sincerely even when core ideas are not shared. May we all strive to radiate this same kindness towards one another.
This is probably one of the most wholly positive UA-cam comments sections I've ever seen. Just a lot of people seeming to appreciate these two getting together and having an extremely civil discussion on very difficult topics. Obvious kudos to Sam and Jordan, but for my experience, it's been uplifting and wholesome to read what a lot of people are saying here in the comments.
These two are speaking from an incredible depth of context . Everytime I come back to these two trading ideas, the more I come to understand exactly how little I know about the world
@@madamluis2537 Im not a Sam Harris viewer or anything, but you made a claim and i did some periphery research, and it doesnt seem like Sam Harris is in favor of government mandates of vaccines at this point in the pandemic although he believes people SHOULD get the vaccine, but thats not really fascism. Maybe he was pro vaccine mandate in the past, but at least according to his podcast AMA #19, he doesn't sound nearly as radical as you claim him to be. If you want to hear what Sam has to say on the subject, I've provided at least a single resource.
Especially now, when so many people's default mode is of "intelligence bragging", I'm right & if you disagree you're dumb, moral superiority and virtue signaling etc. It's much more impressive & intellectually honest, I think, to practice patience, humility and confidently exclaim that I DO NOT KNOW. At least I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND AS MUCH AS I'D LIKE TO. How many times throughout life we look back and realize that we have grown & sharpened our perspective and personality from a previous point when at the time we thought we were at a peak of understanding and now see some error and hubris from that earlier self. It's an interesting exercise to attempt to curb this cycle and to "do ones future self a favor and embrace our inevitable current ignorance and find peace in a sense of wonder & humility, instead of the much easier unfortunate defensiveness, bitter resentment and pompous judgments. I am not at all an example of conquering this dilemma but it's a much more noble space I'd like to dwell in. The epic cliche but unavoidably accurate notion that THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE MORE YOU'RE AWARE OF HOW LITTLE YOU TRULY UNDERSTAND.
@@madamluis2537 What’s the point of spreading flat out baseless lies? Or do you really believe Sam Harris is an advocate of vaccine mandates? Not sure which one is worse considering there’s only evidence to support the exact opposite of what you purport to believe. And all you have to do to know this is listen to him speak on the subject lmao. Verbatim, he says, “I do not support vaccine mandates”. Honestly, just delete your comment.
Currently watching you two from a rehabilitation clinic on the south coast on England. Without your talks that I've avidly followed for the last few years, especially the biblical series Jordan, and surrendering to the powerlessness of things I cannot change while finding the courage the change the things I can, I highly likely would not alive and awoken today. I'm out in less than 3 weeks, ready to take back my life and help others do the same. THANK YOU.
Stick close to the rooms and your sponsor. if you fumble just stop. Call your companion in recovery, and do not feel ashamed. It took me a while, but I've nailed it, I am 67 now. It took what it took. Grateful every day.
I can't even begin to explain how valuable I find the discussions that you and Sam Harris have with each other. It's astounding how much of what you discuss are things that I have tried to understand within my own life. Hearing many of the thoughts that I have had (both intentionally and unintentionally) spoken outloud is very refreshing and eye-opening.
100% agree, I can't believe the trivial crap out there so hugely outweighing this kind of needed intelligent conversations. Most people are totally plugged into the matrix(metaphorically speaking of the deep states ruling paradigm) and everyone who is aware can see that we could almost have heaven on earth, if we stand together and stop letting these phsycotic people divide us with racism and sexism and nationalism etc.
@@mcrobsaccount I always disregarded concepts of meditation etc. As just the same voodoo I learned from religious indoctrination, but from listening to Sam I got enticed to give it a second look and realized there is so much wisdom in meditation and self study too gain from these ancient practises(although there still is a lot of woo in alot of these traditions related to these practices)
@@antonjoubert6980 interesting there's plenty of scienctific literature backing up the positive effects of meditation, even psychedelic effects in some cases. I also find it interesting that you dismiss religion as simply just indoctrination, I take it your not a fan, what religion were you indoctrinated into ?
@@antonjoubert6980 Mediation may control your internal strain with your internal voice, and it's opinion, but does that make abusive people vanish from your life? Does it really do anything if you are already rational, and stable internally? Meditation seems to only work if you are irrational in some type of way. Also, does meditation help you walk around with no internal voice? If so, then you just become more reactionary, and possibly animalistic without opinion. My option is to refine your rationale, and meditation is the opposite of what you should do, but is similar. You talk with yourself in many different arguments at once in your head in essence which seems opposite of the tone these 2 present here.
The depth and decency of these two men is awesome. And how they hold each other’s intellectual feet to the fire, with such rigor and compassion is truly inspiring. I could listen to them talk for hours. We’ll done gentlemen 👏🏼
Im watching this for the second time now and the way that Sam talks here is such a 180 from how he has been talking for the last week or so. I mean saying out loud that any form of corruption from the current goverment is justified, as long as they take out the main potential candidate of the opposition. That just goes so hard against the things he has been saying for a very long time... it makes me think about when they talked about atheism and how he asked Jordan if he believed that being an "atheist" would make him into a tyrant eventually. Jordan replied to this by saying "it would be more likely". Given the fact that Sam thinks the ends justify the means in this situation because of rational calculation, makes me believe that Jordan was right about Sam being more likely to move towards tyranney.
After watching this conversation it struck me just how amazing it is I have access to this calibre of content for free and accessible anywhere anytime.
@@obergssin I have purchased his book, personality course and writing course and will likely purchase future releases. I also intend to see him live on tour when he comes to my city
Saw this. Had to stop what I was doing and allocate the next 1:45:32 of my life to something that I'm sure will be useful and important. Time well spent. Thanks for all you do and say JP. Stay well!
I've had this thought for a few years now. Imagine if netflix and all these companies commissioned a speech or lecture from people like Jordan or Sam. The same way they pay comedians for an hour long special. They could do it with intellectuals and tell them: 2 hour lecture on any topic of your choosing. That would be the future as it seems everyone loves these long form discussions
And actually help inform the masses rather than entertaining and propagandizing to them?? If any of the up-and-coming companies trying to compete with netflix have an ounce of sense, they will incorporate talks like this into their platform. Just look at the views and sold out stadiums from these kinds of talks... the public is asking for it.
I don't think that most humans are ready for such a lecture. I know in my own vicinity nobody would be interested in it. And for those who are ready, plenty of material is already available at your fingertip.
"I remember why we kept talking now": Jordan to Sam (at the end). That made me smile because it was exactly the kind of thought I had about halfway into the discussion. Having watched previous slightly more uncomfortable/jarring conversations between the two, it's really gratifying and enthralling to hear them together now. Keep 'em coming JP x
??? Are you blind? "This" was J.P. having Sam Harris on to see if he (J. P.) could be recognized and acknowledged by betters. J.P. was very tentative throughout this "conversation" and at the end he was very relieved that he made it through the conversation without going completely Bat-Sh** crazy. You could see the relief on Jordan's face at the end.
I've always wondered what it would be like to be a fly on the wall when the philosophers and religious titans of old met and had their discussions. Thank you for the pleasure and blessing to be a part of it now
It would be pretty similar to being a fly on the wall when two dudes fuck. You just be sitting there vomiting your stomach contents onto the wall. Except with the dudes theres more food available on the walls
This is the Dr. Peterson I love hearing. Two great minds having a heady discussion with us in the room. Heath and peace to both of you...and to all kindred spirits really. As long as you harbor no hate in your heart, the seat is open. Welcome.
Sam seems to be not willing to step out of his "the analyst"/ "detachment" mode. What is this mode? While in this mode, it shows us that we can experience/ spend time in the realization that we as spiritual beings can be very separated from our embodiment/ action-realm, while in that mode. The analyst mode is something that deep meditation tends to introduce to a person (personal experience). It is a great "perception tool" in "the toolset". But being in that mode is not where most of Sam's/ ours "daily embodied actions" take place. It's not where our social life/ organization of our society takes place. It's not where our experience with "material reality" takes place. What I mean is, the analyst mode is not dealing with the problems of how to act in this world. That mode is pure perception. It is inherently without agency, inherently without the motivation to act. Jordan is talking about how to determine how to make ever-better embodied actions. Sam seems to not even be interested in diving into the process of how humans did/ do that, in practice. Is it just me?
@@elektrotehnik94 Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but I believe you've committed an error in delineating Sam's position, and in understanding the "selflessness" (or "anatta") that he is describing, by characterizing it as "actionless" detachment, and disassociated from ethical action in the world; I've also heard it described as a "refusal to face the danger of actual life". I think in Sam's view, these "dangers of everyday social life" are precisely the "I" (the wrongheaded way in which people identify themselves, and the suffering which is almost entirely reducible to it), and that meditation is therefore *precisely* to face the dangers of everyday life- which on a more fundamental level are not sociological, but phenomenological: errors in how human beings interpret perception, which lead to suffering & unethical behavior. I think also, an advanced meditator and those familiar know that a "selfless" person- in Harris' sense- is almost always in fact a person of tremendous energy and activity (Buddhism actually has strong criticisms of the kind of "becoming like a stone, sitting inactively" that I think you're describing), not just a person who perceives without agency. Think of your phrase, "embodied action", and think of what Sam is describing, how most people erroneously identify themselves AS thought which HAS a body. Sam is describing actually becoming MORE embodied. Harris is suggesting that agency is actually IMPEDED or even illusory in the mode that 99.9 people live their lives; sitting and meditating actually reveals a power for real agency. Lastly, I think the idea that meditation/mindful awareness is akin to "a mode of pure perception without agency" is... I think it comes from the erroneous and hyper-rationalist view that we somehow THINK our way into action, which thence constitutes agency: I think this is a common-sensical view which is quite at odds with the reality of how things work; what Harris is describing is much more akin to SKILL in action, not actionlessness.
@@elektrotehnik94 Well then its I who misunderstood you... I do agree with you that Harris can come off as somewhat pompous or defensive at times. But, I don't necessarily agree that everyone HAS to be outwardly playful and light all the time either. Some people are ferocious in temperament, or rather cold (like Spock) but if their heart is in the right place I think its fine. And Sam is actually quite playful (he has a whole series with Ricky Gervais for instance, which is hilarious).
@@julianmarx2002 Maybe you are right... maybe Sam has a good reason to be as he is... But I still feel Sam would benefit from meditating more :D I'm fairly confident he has yet plenty to gain from meditation
My wife and I are Heroin addicts living in our car. We are currently in the parking lot of a psychward/Detox facility. We are sleeping in the parking lot, so tomorrow morning at 8:30am when they allow people to check in we won’t miss our chance by getting here to late. We are so excited to start living a happier and healthier life together. Both Sam and Jordan have helped us in so many ways!!! Thank you gentlemen, seriously you two are amazing people!
Since that post we did 30 days in rehab and have now been just over 120 days off heroin. My wife has an amazing job, and we’ve been staying in a motel, but in just under two weeks will be in a a house with good sober friends of ours who we are moving 6 hours away from Chicago to be as far away from knowing where to possibly even get heroin. So my wife will be able to do her job remote, we are doing so much better than we ever thought. We are still doing intensive outpatient three days a week as well on Skype.
@@jessemontano762 hey Jesse thank you so much. We’re still completely off opioids. We moved 6 1/2 hours from Chicago, so we have no clue where to even get it now. Now being in Wisconsin so far from the IL boarder we can’t get kratom., it’s illegal here, which is fucking bullshit!! We’re going back that way for a night in about a week n will 100% get like 100 ounces or something to last. Anyway I’m ranting, thank you again for your kind words and caring!
@anything704 I am no where close to a fan of Peterson. However, he is absolutely brilliant. Just because you disagree with what he says, doesn't make him ignorant by any means.
This is a fascinating conversation. You can totally see how Sam’s neuroscience background and Jordan’s psychology background shape each of their perspectives and overlap.
Remember when we used value different perspectives?? Jordan and Sam are extraordinary showing us how to have a conversation respectfully when perspectives are different. We should all take a lesson from this.
To See Clearly Without the Need to Zoom in because of the quality of the lens or the software embedded in Your Brain while the mindset has actually evolved from the heart.... ❕
As someone who suffers from intrusive thoughts (OCD) and was diagnosed with Asperger’s at 5 years old, this entire discussion spoke to me on such a deep level. Intellectually and psychologically stimulating would be the best way I can describe the experience of listening to these two. Thanks to Dr. Peterson and Dr. Harris for providing such enlightenment and thought-provoking analysis over the years (and hopefully for many more to come).
I was a fan of Sam Harris before Dr. Peterson's ascencion into the spotlight. I'm still a fan of both men and enjoy listening to both of them share their ideas. Very enriching stuff.
A true intellectual doesn't denounce either side of an argument. The best thing to do is seek the Truth from both sides. Even as an Atheist I am a huge fan of Jordan Peterson because he is far more than just a believer, he's a Humanist and that's just fine by me. Society needs more of that on top of reason and logic which cannot stand on its own without the wisdom of the other.
@@proudatheist2042 - Well stated. I have a lot of respect for both Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. I used to be an atheist but I still have all my Sam Harris books.
God, Harris is so genuine, honest and fair. He seems so calm and friendly and kind. Again, what I see here reaffirms that. I have always struggled to understand people who hate Harris. This has led me to hypothesize that people hate him because he doesn't fail in arguing against people. He makes so good points that people either have to accept them or do mental gymnastics to avoid them, and this leads SOME people to use a rather childish tactic of painting him as this bad guy.
Some of it is partly justified, in him using purposefully stilted language and overly relying on a soothing voice which can com across as almost manipulative. I think most of the current blowback against Harris is from him falling into Trump Derangement Syndrome and losing all sense of logic around the topic. And now getting into spats about it with other thinkers. Unbelievable how badly Trump messed him up.
I wonder if even the Universities in todays time actually go through such deep content or conversations. An episode like this really takes you on a ride and teaches you to think pretty critically. So great to see Jordan and Sam discuss.
Just graduated. It's disgusting that most of my teachers weren't themselves supporters of being critical except when it comes to criticising the intellect of the student. For once I risked it all and went loose on one of them. Truly something I would recommend everyone to do (IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT). They humbled themselves from then on. Never had the guts to do that.
@@zakariab9591 You are very brave for that and I admire you for standing up against authoritative figures who try to suppress free speech and critical thinking. It truly is disgusting how the society we live in in the west tries to superimpose their ideology and discourages contemplation and finding our own truth, not that which has been forced upon us.
I have noticed a gradual increase in suffering from the moment my meditation habit started crumbling a couple of months ago. In some sense you could say I am waking up to the fact that the waking up app has drastically reduced my suffering in times of consistent practice. Thank you Jordan and Sam for the lovely conversation. 🙏
Do you know what meditating cutting firewood taking care of animals taken care of your children taking care of your home and doing your work whatever that is you won’t have time to be needing to meditate your work is your meditation your humbling yourself
Could you explain shortly how this app is a help, as opposed to for instance just meditating old school? What does it do and how does it help? Gives you reminders for example?
Man . . . it is so damned good to see these two discussing things again . . . and how exciting and invigorating their conversations are! I will be seeing Jordan Peterson speak live here in Southern California in a couple of months or so (my sister bought the tickets and invited me . . . both of my sisters are awesome!) . . . What an absolute treasure these two are. Hoping with everything that is in me that Jordan Peterson gets plenty of rest and stays healthy . . .
Iam going to a lecture too, in June. Finally got tickets. Peterson is back and got himself a big tour in 2022. Just need to see a live show and Peterson is almost 60. Maybe he quits or ritire after this year. Enjoy your show 👍
Iove that idea about this moment being potentially fresh and meditation leading to this. Breaking on through to the other side - transcending our ideas and labels and artificial concepts.
This is a fabulous conversation, I'm getting so much out of listening to people who have spent a great deal of time groping around in the dark, with a lighter, helping the rest of us who haven't figured out what the lighter is for. The understanding that you guys have and from different angles on these central topics, is giving me almost psychedelic like self reflection and healing and restoring akin to love. Thank you guys! Amazing!
Honestly I like their private conversations more than the public ones. Their public events seemed more competitive while the podcasts seem more productive with finding common ground. Also I didn’t like the interruptions of the cheering that much. Still enjoy all of their conversations deeply!
interesting how Jordan was nearly in tears by the end... hes so happy to be back I think ...im glad to see him speaking and debating. love both yall Jordan and sam
Two important giants in the world trying to do the 'highest good'. Two different approaches entirely but with mutual respect on both sides. Let's keep this conversation going.....a weekly chat on a Netflix series would be amazing.
Imagine a documentary style where the two of them travel the world visiting sacred sites and dissecting the ideology. Then at the end of the whole thing being in lab explaining the science behind neuro pathways.
Neither of these "giants" can give anyone eternal life. Jesus Christ can and will. The entire human race is on "death row" not just those in prison. The most important problem every man has is death. For all of their "wisdom" neither of these men can provide what men need most. They cannot even save themselves from death. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from DEATH unto LIFE." John 10:28 "And I give unto them ETERNAL LIFE; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 5:40 "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
It's a privilege to witness this discussion between two people I respect so much. Each of these people are making immense effort to sincerely and honestly find solutions to the biggest questions and most intractable issues of our time. I recommend anyone not already familiar with either of their work to dig deep and explore their work sooner than later. Thank you to both of you for taking the time to share so much with us.
@@m3awna Thank you for sharing your perspective Farid. I also can't agree with everything either Peterson or Harris say. What impresses me the most is that the things they teach that are the most impactful, I agree with entirely. That's a hard combination to find these days. As far as who's behind Harris, keep in mind he has constructed an incentive structure for himself and his organization that is immune at best and resistant at worst to undue interference from the outside. We are all fallible, but Harris seems to be on the correct track.
Two intellectual titans. Pushing the absolute limit of human understanding. The most complex and demanding conversations in history. I love the way they respect each other and I bow down to both of them. Thanks for this gents.
J. Peterson all I can continue to say is thank you for all you do for all of us. While my life is pretty difficult at the moment, your talks have given me the ability to keep going and see the light in all the darkness. Finding meaning in everything I do and why I do it. It’s help me stay in a positive state through my difficult sickness that I’m going through. Thank you !
@@mikelisteral7863 it’s the most difficult thing because it means to lose control and have solely have faith in Gods will… to the point of death and or believe that your sickness will end you …. Its been difficult. Raised in the Catholic faith and Jordan has help me understand my faith and truly appreciate my faith.
Everyone is in their own realm of reality. Peterson & Harris are Phd. ‘S. The majority of people are blue collar workers & proletariat. Those sectors require people to be repeat pattern - operators. In order to fit in - there are other aspects of the person that have to be sacrificed ( ie not developed & nurtured ) . > Patience will help you navigate the not as intelligent among us. > And know - that we each have value/ regardless.
the very lovely Sam Harris: "What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime-as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day-but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own. All of this is perfectly insane, of course: I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world’s population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher’s stone, and unicorns."
@@someguy5063 I personally believe that their isn't going to be a nuclear war in the near future in the ist place. But if it happened its would be from a non Muslim country, probably from US or Israel against a probable non Muslim country I.e China or Russia or possibly muslim country Iran.
I could happily listen to these two discuss anything. Both show incredible depths of mind & mental agility & want the best for humanity. There's simply nothing to dislike regardless of one's own opinion. The level of respect they have for each other speaks volumes in how to move forwards healthily.
The amount of truth and ideas packed into the ongoing dialogue between these two has been hugely edifying and orienting for me, especially since recently starting a family. *THANKS DR. PETERSON* 🙏🏽
173880 proves when the Christ would come. Chuck Missler saved me. Can you find the hidden cross in numbers chapter 2? What do the names mean in Genesis chapter 5? Electric resistivity scans proves Noah’s ark in Turkey!
I am always relieved when I can listen to Jordan and he isn't constantly talking over his guest. These two are more pleasant to listen to in this conversation than in past recordings I have heard.
Oh good he doesnt in this? Im just starting and was hoping JP didnt over talk and Sam isnt claiming vaccine necessity is as obvious as necessity of oxygen. Im not seeing any comment on Sams unwillingness to discuss pandemic.. maybe that is not discussed.. hmmm
I love seeing you two having a relationship and these ongoing conversations. Thank you both for all the work you have put into your lives and your work, and for having this conversation.
Jordan really has an amazing ability to state his case in such an enlightened way. He makes the confused come to grips with facts. Sam on the other hand is so confused on facts and makes you want change the channel in frustration.
No one who does it like you two. Please never stop having these kinds of conversation with each other. Do not be shy about your greatness, the two of you are speer-heading contemporary philosophical and socio-cultural discourse.
If you think those two are "speer-heading contemporary philosophical and socio-cultural discourse" you most likely are not very up-to-date on those matters and only know those two thinkers, whose purely circumstantial and lucky mediatic success makes them more easily known than others who have done more, quantitatively and qualitatively.
Listening to these chaps I actually feel somewhat more optimistic for the future than i did. The fact i can listen to people like this for free is actually a great and encouraging thing. There is much fear about the soft power mafia of the technocracy, arts media and culture (and rightly so) but they’ve always been a shady bunch who’ve choked free narratives- at least now we have access to people and ideas like this. Thanks to UA-cam and The Drs
Just as an aside this isn’t always the easiest conversation to follow. Sams propensity to thread a very complex epistemological strand through the eye of a hard to imagine, abstract needle is impressive :) … maybe my IQ and cognitive RAM is just not up to the job though
@@MrAhuraMazda I don’t know about that sir. But I suppose i meant more generally as a phenomenon. That people are able to connect with a larger sea of ideas. In my youth there was 4 TV channels and 6 newspapers in the UK. That was a very easy landscape for the ‘Metro elite’ to seize and control. I think we’re far more aware of how a small group is doing that now and platforms like these (UA-cam) are helping us.
JP and Sam Harris have the same audience. Most of their audience is the typical Joe Rogan crowd. Majority Right wing frustrated men. They themselves have acknowledged this, they personally say that their audiences overlap on about 80% of the issue besides religion and some political issues.
These kinds of discussions have been such a positive influence on my life. Harris was there right from the start of the medium alongside people like Dawkins and Hitchens, and now Peterson brings such a powerful, articulate, and new (at least to me) perspective to things. I can't fathom why there are not many more superstars of this medium yet bringing the discussion of complex ideas to the masses.
@@TotsugekiKun I think I more or less agree with your assessment. I think it's pretty clear that your accusations towards idealogues are justified. However I have no issue with most of these idealogues no matter how much power they wield. If militant idealogues didn't attack JP, this discussion may never have happened for example. I actually think that under normal circumstances the idealogue problem you're talking about is a self-normalizing wave for that reason. Except for one external factor that is new: the dismantling of neutral publishing. The ability to publish needs to be as neutral as possible, be it books, tweets, videos, lectures, etc.. That's where I start to get worried personally. Book publishers, Social Media companies, and video platforms are being overtaken by these radical idealogues you speak of. I've been pondering the possibility of a certification criteria, which would set out the guidelines for neutral publishing platforms. It wouldn't be entirely dissimilar to something like organic food certification, wherein people can see if the platforms they're using have harmful or manipulative covert algorithms, or they in fact have reasonably neutral publishing criteria. I also think that addictive and manipulative algorithms are akin to cigarettes in their harm to society, and should have warnings associated with them.
For one, not many people are as intelligent as these guys. Secondly, these guys have dedicated thousands of hours each year, for decades to reading and writing on these topics. That level of discipline and dedication is rare.
Whether you agree with Sam or Jordan or both, I think what they're doing (as well as others like them) is showing the rest of us of how valuable it is to be able to talk with each other and discover where we agree on certain topics, and where we disagree on certain topics.
my favorite conversations... these 2...we need free-thinkers like this; agreeing/disagreeing... but learning and evolving stances through acquiring and parsing what they've learned.
Peterson and Harris, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you !!. You two have brought me such a tremendous amount of joy, intellectual stimulans and most of all personal improvement. I really hope there will be more conversations like these. And I Wish you both all the best in the future.
I don't know if you'd both be able to find the time, but there is HUGE potential for a regular Peterson/Harris podcast, separate from your own individual ones. You two seem to have a unique relationship where you approach things from completely different angles, yet often seem to reach similar conclusions with an odd blend of conversation, debate, agreement, argument. And it's all with 100% good faith. It's compelling viewing 👍
A conversation combining viewpoints from neuroscience, ethics, (17-20th century) psychology and philosophy always makes for a compelling listen especially from the minds of JP and SH.
@Andy Mann Just because you can’t remember or understand something does not mean others can’t follow along. Again stop projecting your inadequacies onto everyone else.
@Andy Mann In just 1 hour 45 minutes they give us enough content to keep coming back. It's like reading a complex book. You can't just understand all of it in one sitting.
Jordan talks about the roots of anything or anyone's issues with a very fine tooth and comb. I love the topics he speaks on. Usually the ones that matter to humanity's well being, and communicating with every different ways of thinking 🤔. I love his podcast!
these kind of conversations give me so much hope, less arguing to argue and more of this ❤ everytime JP said something like "I'm not trying to corner you" it made me smile. How can we ever talk through and learn if everything is a fight and we can never misspeak or change our mind. As a religious person I usually struggle with Sam Harris and feel he is condescending to what I believe but found him fascinating here :)
@@Arafat-my6fe sam gets alot of happiness from intellectualizing about his material reality. and therefore is not ready to give it up and jump off the deep end in meditation.
@@mikelisteral7863 Sam speaks about spirituality all the time, as well as the significance, relevance, and doubtlessness of spiritual experiences..... you clearly are unfamiliar with Sam's work.
@@mikelisteral7863 At the end of the day we do have to rely on the material and occasionally sprinkle some spiritually on it to make life more meaningful. Most religious stories are fantasies (until proven otherwise) that inspire people to do good, but for more sophisticated people it's not enough just to imagine things without evidence.
I went to the O2 event in London and had a blast. It's great to see Sam and Jordan engaging again and talking fondly of one another and remembering those big events.
@@dash_r_media Why? I'm seriously asking. Used to listen to the guy years ago, but then just sort of stopped. No clue what he's been doing for the past 5 to 6 years.
@@dlon9067 I was a huge fan for a long time but he developed "TDS". It's a bit of a hyperbolic term but nonetheless it's an accurate description. He now associates all sorts of ideas with trumpism. Vaccine hesitancy and the atrocious and authoritarian response to covid by governments around the world in particular. I was willing to let a lot of the other stuff go but this one is so obviously shady that I can't just agree to disagree. Sam is definitely still a strong critical thinker but he succumbed to leftist rhetoric on some level and for whatever reason is all the way to the point of strawmanning and oversimplified the positions of legitimately knowledgeable people who have a different opinion on the whole covid narrative.
what always stuck me was the obvious synergy between Sam's premise of being able to derive morality via Science and Jordan's work to scientifically understand the importance of mythology
sam makes an age old mistake of confusing morality with utilitarianism. morality does not come from good, it comes from our sense of fairness which comes from the fact we are all equal on the human level.
@@mikelisteral7863 What do you mean "we're all equal on the human level"? And why only on the human level? Identifying with the species? Morality stems from a sense of belonging, i.e. tribalism? It's interesting to note here that that's almost entirely a mammalian thing, as far as I'm aware amphibians and reptilians don't have that thing (ingroup vs outgroup, herd mentality, abstraction about belonging in a collective). Just saying.
@@Realivangarcia i did not say we are identical. i said we are all equal on the human level. you are human and i am human and therefore fairness is objectively correct.
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 morality has nothing to do with belonging. our emotions are programmed to keep us in a tribe. but morality is rooted in our sense of fairness not sams utility or hedonism root.
It’s always a pleasure to see both of them together. Both Sam and Jordan played an important role in the development of my psyche, and my ability to connect with my consciousness in a deeper level. Thank you, gents!
Same for me, it's was heart breaking to watch the community divide into team JP or team Sam Harris and start acting like children resorting to just name calling.
@@Max_Power100 Hes not stupid, he has worked hard and succeeded although I don't agree with him on alot, that doesn't mean you treat him the way the mainstream media treat Dr Peterson
My mind has no business being this expanded, but here we are. Who am I , and then what do I DO with that?! Food for thought indeed. I feel such a deep love for both of you, thank you so much
Sam seems to be not willing to step out of his "the analyst"/ "detachment" mode. What is this mode? While in this mode, it shows us that we can experience/ spend time in the realization that we as spiritual beings can be very separated from our embodiment/ action-realm, while in that mode. The analyst mode is something that deep meditation tends to introduce to a person (personal experience). It is a great "perception tool" in "the toolset". But being in that mode is not where most of Sam's/ ours "daily embodied actions" take place. It's not where our social life/ organization of our society takes place. It's not where our experience with "material reality" takes place. What I mean is, the analyst mode is not dealing with the problems of how to act in this world. That mode is pure perception. It is inherently without agency, inherently without the motivation to act. Jordan is talking about how to determine how to make ever-better embodied actions. Sam seems to not even be interested in diving into the process of how humans did/ do that, in practice. Is it just me?
@@elektrotehnik94, it's not just you. The way you said it was very eloquent, though. I was not going to be so charitable. But since you were, I will be. I really appreciate how thought-provoking JP's questions are. I admire how JP, who seems to have nearly endless knowledge about so many things--even things he claims he has not much knowledge of (he's truly humble), can understand the other person's point of view so well that he even helps make the other person's point, even when that other person doesn't realize he is not making a point or that he, himself, is sabotaging his own point (the times when he seems to have one--a point, I mean).
@@davidbeaumont244 Demonizing a blind man (Sam Harris) for not seeing is not helping. It might feel good, but it's not helping. You help convince him to get the operation making him see again. That actually helps, helps both of you
It always blows me away. I stumbled across sam probably 7 years ago, and jordan probably 5. Found totally independent of each other. And as a simple, curious and observant young man, I quickly identified that I felt this was the two smartest public intellectuals I’ve personally observed. When they cross paths in a situation like this, regardless of who or what I agree with, it really demonstrates to me just how sophisticated, refined, and deeply intelligent a very select few people in the world are. This is like the intellectual version of watching the two best athletes or teams of a given sport cross paths.
@@jonathanj2666 I know hitchens quite well. Hold him in very high regard. Especially his aural presence, argumentation and ability. Very few can hold court in the way he could. I would say in an outright intellectual capacity he wasn’t quite as competent as these two, though in a purely debate/presentation scenario I think he was better than either of these two. Good comment and observation, thanks 😊
@@frederickvandenheuvel479 That's really not fair at all. I agree there's some sophistry there, but there's a lot of real insight as well. Nobody is perfect.
@@Zeuts85 there's no sophistry really, Peterson expresses himself in very allegorical ways, which is the "mystical" way of communicating experience. The Tao cannot be read literally, Musashi's Five Rings cannot be read literally, and the Bible makes much more sense interpreted this way. People like Frederick have "no depth", that's why he's building traction in the comment section of a person he hates.
Wow - that was quite something. Sometimes I find these intellectual discussions a little difficult to connect with, but this one felt grounded in experience I could relate to. Thank you to both speakers!
I saw and met them both when they toured to Dublin. It was the most boring conversation ever. You can watch that entire tour on UA-cam I think. I'm a big fan of both. But I nearly fell asleep... This conversation was incredible. 2 intellectual heavyweights. I would pay to see them speak again.
@@ClanMacqueen Before his explosive popularity, Peterson was a talking head in Ontario for a decade or more, weighing in on various topics. Heard him many times. His debating skill was evident and convincing. But, if you paid attention, you could tell he’d adjust the underlying argument or obfuscate the discussion. Listen to him - he’s good - but listen again with a critical ear. Admittedly, Peterson is mostly acquiescent in this discussion. I recommend you go back and listen to his past arguments. Nevertheless, at 55:55 and 1:11:50 he pushes a bit (not sure my times are exactly right). Beginning at 1:14 things get odd. Criticism of the sacred, of something that cannot be questioned, sets him off… Curious, considering the 55:55 point regarding totalitarianism.
I really appreciate how these men engage in a deep, difficult discussion without trying to talk over the other to make a point. Voice volume remains constant even when disagreement is obviously present. They are both skilled listeners. TV personalities could learn a lot from these two men.
Watching Jordan's sincere and relentless quest for truth is so inspiring that my admiration for him actually distracts my mind from following his protracted arguments all the way to the end. Smile, admire, rewind... smile, admire, rewind... now I understand what Sisyphus must have felt like.
@Andy Mann EVEN if you were right, that you are one of the true and best people on earth: by the way in which you've chosen to communicate, you've abdicated that moral/epistemological superiority. It's literally oxymoronic to be a superior person, and to then say "I have better morals" and condescend to a simple comment as that woman's so rudely. Hopefully this is evident to you
I love to listen to the discussions you have with Sam, I find them so engaging that I can't even get distracted for like more than 1 hour and that's saying something to me.
Two of my favorite contemporary public minds in Sam & Jordan. Harris really interpolated a profound premise on how true spiritual access would need to be beyond any existing written documents or ideas, and available if our species universally started from zero, to qualify as real direct transcendence of self. 1:33:40
@@robroy6072 not at all. Buddha never claimed to have a monopoly on spiritual access. In fact, Advaita Vedanta predated him by at least 5000years and was widely known throughout Siddhartha’s region when he transcended Atman to Bodhi. The Buddha understood vidya of the Source was universal and could be reached a multitude of ways, but shared the Middle Path and the Heart Sutra that was his awakening modality.
@@Evanderj I never claimed that Buddha claimed a monopoly. Now we are off on a tangent of misunderstanding. To clarify, while I understand that it is said the teachings of the Buddha could be reconstructed in future (or past) ages from scratch, after the Dharma degrades., the reality is that we, and Sam know of these ideas through real historical events, the writing of the Vedas and the Life of the Buddha. Sam makes the mistake of many American Buddhists or separating Nirvana from Samsara. It is a psychological parallel to him trying to separate Buddhism from the spiritual quest, making it a sanitized materialist "science of mind". It is beyond any science vs spirituality binary.
Great episode! To touch on the final point, psilocybin changed the course of my life during the darkest moments of 2020. I am in 100% agreeance that this is not a “magic pill”, and rather a reminder of where you are… Here, and Now. It made me realize that depression lives in the past, and anxiety, in the future. Begin every day, every decision, and every moment with intent, and remember… There is no time like the present.
The indigenous used those hallucinations to access the spirit world. Sam is so lost that he’s yearning for anything supernatural. His only resources seem to be drugs and meditation, which are ACTUALLY tools to interact with the supernatural.
Great to har that psilocybin helped you. It did for me, too. For the first time in over ten years, I wasn't anxious around people, and rather filled with friendliness and joy. There was a peculiar sense of non-judgement. The lingering mellowness of the after effects was notable, too. And when the going gets rough, I just go to those memories to remind myself that joy and peace of mind is possible. Also agree that it's not a magic pill and should be handled with the outmost respect.
@@SixtiesStick I saw and felt the land of God in the parting of a cumulonimbus cloud during my trip, and really felt that God was the interconnectedness and totality of all that is.
What is the domain of the mind, and the shared thoughts and intentions of people who live besides that? It’s literal immaterial reality. These are domains of society, where ones thoughts translate into reality, enter another’s senses, and become a portion of the thoughts in their head, and then inform their next action in the physical. That’s 2 out of 300,000,000 doing that all the time. Add in the literally uncountable interactions of this material domain, with the collective domains of all of us, and the ones that came before, and the ones that will come after. That’s at least a portion of what mystics were trying to talk about. The unseen that molds our world. Christians name at least three domains here. The World. Which is us here. Our society. The Flesh which is compelled and impelled by a cacophony of immaterial processes. Made of Information that does not truly physically mean anything until the structure and machinery of our bodies was set upon those molecular instructions. Called DNA. And then the Devil is our third domain. Which is what is immaterial and not good, and ends in death for us and corruption. Destruction and malice. Those things, which purposes live in us and the world, whose end is to steal, kill, and destroy. Catholics would call that something like Hell. But more accurate readings in my understanding are death. Which is the ceasing of this immaterial stuff. Which is called spirit. And called life. Well more accurately they call true life the manifestation of that immaterial us, without ceasing. The assertion being that what is truly good is what can or ought to last forever. And not just forever, but to transcend the limits of time and space itself. Now we can’t do that. This universe will end, but that which informs us, ought to be what would stand forever, if we did not know of our end. That’s transcendent good. There’s also transcendent evil. But the manifestation of the devil is good enough. And that’s because the claim of Christianity, which is announcing the victory of transcendent good. That those who believe even if we die, our action ought to be made to last eternally, as the standard, even though we die. That’s what they call true Faith. The final victory of good and redemption, claiming that if you abstain from the lesser paths of your fathers, and instead cling to the ways to the father of your Faith, which is Abraham, all of that immaterial life that was good, will end for only a time. You’ll fade, but your good will be accounted to you for your faith. And will be yours again through this Christ figure. After that we get into what is evil. How it contrasts good. And the idea that we manifest our own corruption which leads to our death, and severance from life. And the idea of a Messiah. Who is what we couldn’t be, which is that transcendent good. Anyway that’s not super critical and requires a lot of working, and it may not be relevant. What I listed is cohesive enough to explain spiritual conceptions of life and goodness, and how they connect to this scientifically observable reality between our ears, and between us as groups of people. Sorry if that’s a lot. Or that’s my collective understanding. It’s… Not argued doctrine, just my personal understanding. Which are… Theologically based, and therefore arguable, but I claim no particular school.
@@johnjaso385 You don't like something? I only mentioned it because I thought it was relevant,, and it's an concept I have been working through. The point is not to proselytize. Got no church. The farthest from it actually. I just thought that someone might find interesting and would engage. Maybe I misjudged the comment, and it doesn't communicate well? Or the audience? I do not claim skill or intelligence, it's just the best way I can manage to write it. So what's your criticism? I actually am interested in understanding it. No cap.
Intellectual and Giant is not two words I would use together when describing Harris. I used to have some respect for the guy until he went off the deep end with TDS. Having said this as someone who doesn't really care a whole lot for Trump.
@@mountedpatrolman Harris isn't hiding his _very_ deep despise for Trump, which is a weakness, i think. Yet he isn't the typical "orange man-bad" guy some like him to be. He goes into full detail about his criticism in countless podcasts and i do respect that. Not his method but his content.
@@lowroad4257 "You can't be an intellectual" and realize Trump is "problematic" (nice leftist buzzword there), and realize he also did some very good things. Not accepting that means you are in fact an idiot.
Sam and Jordan have a fantastic chemistry. I think they mix in a very particular way that results in brilliant conversations. They're almost like a yin and yang.
Listening to you two gentlemen having this conversation makes me laugh at times and cry at times. I have been unable to have a real conversation for years with people in my life as they get angry with me for not agreeing with them. And I want proof to decide what I believe and they seem to except what other people say as truth. I am old now including having a stroke. Perhaps I had the stroke about the right time in my life as I needed to think why I believed what I thought I believed before the stroke. Now only 33 minutes into this video I have taken 5 breaks as I find it very emotional. If this make any sense... now back to you gentlemen.
@@Provoker7 I am imagining that you are human with a nick name AI. I think AI the machine can be used for good but in this new world order it will be used much more for evil in our future taking taking away our liberty and freedom. Even much more for our grand children.
Having listened to all of your conversations and lectures together, this was by far my favourite. The respect was palpable and the comfort that stemmed from that led to a brilliant discussion! Would love to see another!
Well, have a look at this if you want to find what Islam really means: ''The Words'' written by Said Nursi. Now this is one of those books you may never have encountered before and in it you can find amazing analogies and stories... just write: ''e risale english'' and it will come up at the top :)
Uh. Maybe check your wording. Also, he is pretentious and really just a know-it-all who speaks well enough to convince people that his ideas make sense.
Same. It’s nice to see Sam exposing it. Because it’s been known in history of what religion has done to people through the years. Based of different beliefs or interesting in the same sex and other horrifying things of crimes it’s done.
Two of my favourite contemporary philosophers having a respectful and thoughtful discussion. This is way better entertainment than most other forms of media. Love it!
Wow. How these two beautiful human beings say farewell after a debate always makes me tear up a little bit. I can't help to see it as a celebration of science. Science is where debates are had with a potentially blinding intensity but never at the cost of manners. A true recipe for an anstounding amount of good in the world. Thank you both!
@Andy Mann You may get a more satisfying response to your trolling from a different kind of podcast. I hope you find what you need somewhere, if all else fails, try meditation, Sam has a great app which you can try for free 😉
it makes me feel happy to realise how appreciative Jordon and Sam are to have these conversations. They both have such great minds which find their match in each other.
Thank you, that is all I can say. Your conversations are so incredibly honest, thoughtful, thought-provoking, and important. I love that you invite us all in to join you. These conversations are a kind of meditation in and of themselves, a filet mignon with fine wine for my mind. Again, thank you.
Having watched many of your discussions with Sam it is good to see that you have arrived at a more peaceful dialogue and are no longer demonstrating the immense rift between the theist and atheist that we see so much of in the world. We are allies, not enemies as Jesus didn't tell us to kill each other but to love each other. This is a demonstration of that love even when you disagree with each other. Thank you both.
@Maggie Smith when I wrote that post I hadn't seen the entire conversation and the part where he was trying to get his angle in there. But in his original discussions he was much more adamant about it.
I have had a drink problem for year's. It hit home when you said the only treatment for alcoholics is spiritual transformation. That is the path I'm seeking, before it's too late. Thank you Dr. Peterson. 🙏🏻💜
@Martin Luther Indeed He saves. That gem of a book, the scriptures. Never drank or smoked or consumed anything that’s bad for health :) that wasn’t my issue but life and its trauma, the kind that debilitates psychologically and emotionally, what they these days so reductively dub ‘mental health’ problems, THAT is what Jesus pulled me out of; twenty five years back, and life hasn’t necessarily been a bed of roses since but it has never been the same either. Absolutely untouchable peace and joy through life’s trials 💪🏾💃 It always gladdens my heart to find someone who has been touched and healed like that. God speed, Pilgrim!
You know Andrew, in Islam, drinking alcohol is prohibited. Therefore, if you would consider to become Muslim after looking deeper into the religion from the right sources, it would solve your drinking problem for once and for all :)
I was in the London event and I noticed that people around me were clapping for both Sam and Jordan, so eventhough the Sam and JOrdan disagreed they made points that were rewarded by same members of the audience that was exciting and how things should be. Very rarely big questions are black and white and even contradicting things can exist at the same time. This would be so important to introduce back into the conversations in social media to make the conversations more adult and reflecting more the complex reality.
thank you JP you have completely turn around my life . am getting my self togther still battling depression and anxiety but am doing my best. .. much love all the way from TANZANIA
Glad to see you're healthy again Jordan, I never doubted once that you would be able to get back on track. Because that is the kind of person that you are, there was a time in my life when I was also in a very bad place, but you have also helped me get through that. I have improved tremendously as a result of reading your book as well as watching your videos. In my personal opinion, you are one of the greatest modern minds we have. Thanks so much.
I could listen to you two talk for weeks straight. Two amazing minds, though differently wired along a few lines, spark thought within those of us who listen. That, unfortunately, is not as regular as some might like to think. Thank you both, gentlemen.
Sam seems to be not willing to step out of his "the analyst"/ "detachment" mode. What is this mode? While in this mode, it shows us that we can experience/ spend time in the realization that we as spiritual beings can be very separated from our embodiment/ action-realm, while in that mode. The analyst mode is something that deep meditation tends to introduce to a person (personal experience). It is a great "perception tool" in "the toolset". But being in that mode is not where most of Sam's/ ours "daily embodied actions" take place. It's not where our social life/ organization of our society takes place. It's not where our experience with "material reality" takes place. What I mean is, the analyst mode is not dealing with the problems of how to act in this world. That mode is pure perception. It is inherently without agency, inherently without the motivation to act. Jordan is talking about how to determine how to make ever-better embodied actions. Sam seems to not even be interested in diving into the process of how humans did/ do that, in practice. Is it just me?
@@elektrotehnik94 Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but I believe you've committed an error in delineating Sam's position, and in understanding the "selflessness" (or "anatta") that he is describing, by characterizing it as "actionless" detachment, and disassociated from ethical action in the world; I've also heard it described as a "refusal to face the danger of actual life". I think in Sam's view, these "dangers of everyday social life" are precisely the "I" (the wrongheaded way in which people identify themselves, and the suffering which is almost entirely reducible to it), and that meditation is therefore precisely to face the dangers of everyday life- which on a more fundamental level are not sociological, but phenomenological: errors in how human beings interpret perception, which lead to suffering & unethical behavior. I think also, an advanced meditator and those familiar know that a "selfless" person- in Harris' sense- is almost always in fact a person of tremendous energy and activity (Buddhism actually has strong criticisms of the kind of "becoming like a stone, sitting inactively" that I think you're describing), not just a person who perceives without agency. Think of your phrase, "embodied action", and think of what Sam is describing, how most people erroneously identify themselves AS thought which HAS a body. Sam is describing actually becoming MORE embodied. Harris is suggesting that agency is actually IMPEDED or even illusory in the mode that 99.9 people live their lives; sitting and meditating actually reveals a power for real agency. Lastly, I think the idea that meditation/mindful awareness is akin to "a mode of pure perception without agency" is... I think it comes from the erroneous and hyper-rationalist view that we somehow THINK our way into action, which thence constitutes agency: I think this is a common-sensical view which is quite at odds with the reality of how things work; what Harris is describing is much more akin to SKILL in action, not actionlessness.
I appreciate this discussion, and for me I think this is the conversation that sealed the deal that Sam Harris ultimately won the war throughout these two's series of arguments.
With Sam Harris' eastern influences and his intellectual take on them, this is as close as it gets to a discussion between Jordan B. Peterson and Alan Watts - something that would have probably blown our minds beyond comprehension.
Alan Watts was far more spiritual than intellectual. He was very deep, but the spiritual is much harder to pin down and articulate in a matter of fact way. It's not really possible to put something of spiritual substance into words and be precise. Words form thoughts, and the spiritual is more closely related to feelings than thoughts. You have to read someone a poem or paint them a picture and have what you are trying to convey brush past them and hope that they notice. That's the closest you can get. It can't be delivered directly. That's why we can talk about it for eternity and never pin it down. The moment you think a thought about it you take it out of it's nature and it's gone. That's why it's so elusive.
@@NandortheRelentless Yes. Watts was more stream of consciousness in the way he communicated ideas imo. He could be very entertaining but these two are much more tangible when bringing theory into real world experience...they're more logic and science based.
@@NandortheRelentless well I mean his whole thing was bringing Zen teachings to a western audience. To those unfamiliar with Eastern philosophy his talks were often paradigm shifting. However once you get past his poetic eloquence you realize that most of what he's saying is to be mindful, unattached, and that the yin needs the yang. Not bad messages by any means, but nowadays they could come off as cliche.
I enjoyed this conversation. Sam's approach to problem solving compliments Jordan's seeking orientation. I've subscribed to Sam's channel in relation to this video. Keep up the excellent efforts gentlemen.
Really wonderful to see these two grow with their relationship. I love this conversation/podcast, since it is quite relatable in how I myself, have been attempting to reconcile (as a Christian) how exactly the Bible's scriptures were meant to be interpreted.
The Bible might be a combination of stories and history, but most of all, there is a solution to our broken world, to be reconciled back to God through His Son. 1/3rd of the Bible is prophetic, Daniel 9:24-27 says that after the command to rebuild Jerusalem 457BC the Messiah would come, and he came right on time on the 69th week of prophetic years (7x69) riding on a colt with waving palm leaves in 26/27AD. Believe:)
The Biblical stories have so many potential meanings, paradoxes, contradictions.....I'd not get carried away with developing a coherent leitmotif. We live in a radically different cosmology now post Galileo, Darwin, DNA, Einstein, Pavlov et al, so any reconciliation will need to be proximal to these realities.
@@blombidobadila8084 not really. The Bible references DNA on multiple levels, in more than one place. Gotta go to work maybe I'll be back to explain but search features are your friend.
@@Artcore103 Does it, intriguing, yet improbable. DNA seemingly removes the notion us homo sapiens are other than marginally more advanced chimps, or explains why our behaviour is almost exactly the same.
I'm a success story. You turned a 50 year old into a man. Homeless to success. I started by making my bed in the shelter. Thank you for caring.
Congratulations, Kevin.
Many congratulations Kevin sir!
Best wishes and lots of blessings to you! You are going to do great things!
Shit. That one hit hard
Kevin, you are the man! Keep you chin up and keep pushing forward!
The reason why these kinds of discussions resonate so well with so many is there are billions of us who are logical, thoughtful, and curious and we are starving to hear intelligent and interesting conversation instead of the mind numbing bullshit that is constantly fed to us on a daily basis.
Billions ? I disagree. That number is much less.
Very few of us are truly logical or thoughtful. All of us are driven by emotions which most pretend to be based on rational thought. Few truly employ real conceptual thinking to most issues.
However, people who effectively put across rational ideas on complex issues can be refreshing for many of us. Plus give us food for thought.
@@iain5615 Everyone is driven by emotions - even Zen Buddhists get angry sometimes. Some people are just better at restraining and regulating them long enough to employ rational thinking more often than not.
Based on observations made in the last 2 years I'd estimate that approximately 20% of the human population is at least INTERESTED in rational thought. So you're not far off - I'd say it's around 1.6 billion people.
@@igg3937 i can agree with that. However, emotions aren't always anger. Desire, greed, etc. play apart and these can lead people to want to believe something that they then try to unconsciously rationalise.
This is the most positive comment section I’ve seen, the result of a meaningful discussion that transcended cynicism. This is an important formula, genuine thinking and genuine listening, all in good faith. It has produced thousands of comments expressing gratitude. Thank you both for breaking the mold of the internet.
the very lovely Sam Harris: "What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime-as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day-but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own. All of this is perfectly insane, of course: I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world’s population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher’s stone, and unicorns."
@@someguy5063 Don't worry religion won't be a reason for the world to plunge into another chaotic war. We'll do that just ourselves without religion. Infact it won't even make sense to use religion as an excuse for war in this day and Age.
@@sxucekey619 my worry isn't religion or war or whatever else he was talking about. my worry is the person whom I quoted. you might want to read what he said once again. this guy is insane!
@@someguy5063 it's pretty eminently reasonable; if a death cultist got hold of a nuke (and a muslim death cultist IS more likely, due at least in part to how modern geopolitics interacts with unique tenets of their historico-religious tradition, such as the concept of jihad and paradise), a first strike would be a necessity; sorry the world isn't unicorns and rainbows like you want it to be. Also to be fair, this was written around 9/11 when the perceived global threat of Islam was at its height- you could probably find many such quotes from the time.
If you like JP you'd be worth marrying LOL
Listened to this a second time... After a 5 month break... This time round, I'm just blown away by SAM'S coolness, calmness, intellect and especially his effortlessness in conveying his perspective.
ABSOLUTELY SUPERB 👌👌👌👏👏
Well, the great ones make it look easy.
Sam Harris lives in bondage and emptiness
John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free
That’s 30 years of meditative practice paying off.
Sam is a living treasure
Yes. That’s what enlightened beings are like and it’s on steroids communication because of his intellect and studies. Great stuff.
We have a saying in my culture - When two elephants fight it’s the grass that suffers. This ‘debate’ between two titans is having the opposite effect. I can feel myself growing. Thank You JBP and Sam Harris
Great saying. Thanks for giving it out.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Except that Harris isn't an elephant or titan.
@@Consciousnesstransformation Just so; he is the subject of a metaphor. I bow to your mastery of facticity.
when 2 elephants fight its FOR THE GLORY OF ELEPHANT KIND
So refreshing to hear two grown adults having a civil discussion nowadays.
😁indeedio
.... that isnt at its heart a political marketing exercise
👍🏽word
@@ajb7786 Wow, you're just a ray of sunshine aren't you?
@@ajb7786 You must be fun at parties.
Kindness can flow between two people who disagree, this is the watermark of our humanity. I appreciate that a friendship can be cultivated sincerely even when core ideas are not shared. May we all strive to radiate this same kindness towards one another.
@Tyrannicaltech What would it take for you to forgive Sam?
If only people were so charitable nowadays , it seems to have been forgotten
Mark Wilson that was beautifully said....thanks,lorra
@Tyrannicaltech i'm sorry that you are the way you are
very well put. Thank you Mark.
This is probably one of the most wholly positive UA-cam comments sections I've ever seen. Just a lot of people seeming to appreciate these two getting together and having an extremely civil discussion on very difficult topics. Obvious kudos to Sam and Jordan, but for my experience, it's been uplifting and wholesome to read what a lot of people are saying here in the comments.
❤️
Couldn’t agree more. Both very enjoyable to listen to on topics they are discussing.
I agree. I did not get the feeling there was any competition or confrontation, just two minds sharing their perception of truth's.
💚
I live for the comments section!
These two are speaking from an incredible depth of context . Everytime I come back to these two trading ideas, the more I come to understand exactly how little I know about the world
Yes it's very exciting watching the heavyweight championship fight. Our participation would be useless though lol
Sam Harris is a fascist. He believes people should be forced to be vaccinated and he also has TDS.
@@madamluis2537 Im not a Sam Harris viewer or anything, but you made a claim and i did some periphery research, and it doesnt seem like Sam Harris is in favor of government mandates of vaccines at this point in the pandemic although he believes people SHOULD get the vaccine, but thats not really fascism. Maybe he was pro vaccine mandate in the past, but at least according to his podcast AMA #19, he doesn't sound nearly as radical as you claim him to be. If you want to hear what Sam has to say on the subject, I've provided at least a single resource.
Especially now, when so many people's default mode is of "intelligence bragging", I'm right & if you disagree you're dumb, moral superiority and virtue signaling etc. It's much more impressive & intellectually honest, I think, to practice patience, humility and confidently exclaim that I DO NOT KNOW. At least I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND AS MUCH AS I'D LIKE TO. How many times throughout life we look back and realize that we have grown & sharpened our perspective and personality from a previous point when at the time we thought we were at a peak of understanding and now see some error and hubris from that earlier self. It's an interesting exercise to attempt to curb this cycle and to "do ones future self a favor and embrace our inevitable current ignorance and find peace in a sense of wonder & humility, instead of the much easier unfortunate defensiveness, bitter resentment and pompous judgments. I am not at all an example of conquering this dilemma but it's a much more noble space I'd like to dwell in. The epic cliche but unavoidably accurate notion that THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE MORE YOU'RE AWARE OF HOW LITTLE YOU TRULY UNDERSTAND.
@@madamluis2537 What’s the point of spreading flat out baseless lies? Or do you really believe Sam Harris is an advocate of vaccine mandates? Not sure which one is worse considering there’s only evidence to support the exact opposite of what you purport to believe. And all you have to do to know this is listen to him speak on the subject lmao. Verbatim, he says, “I do not support vaccine mandates”. Honestly, just delete your comment.
Currently watching you two from a rehabilitation clinic on the south coast on England. Without your talks that I've avidly followed for the last few years, especially the biblical series Jordan, and surrendering to the powerlessness of things I cannot change while finding the courage the change the things I can, I highly likely would not alive and awoken today. I'm out in less than 3 weeks, ready to take back my life and help others do the same. THANK YOU.
Congrats man, one day at a time you got this 💪🏻
Great job Peter, awesome work seriously man. Pay it forward.
@@phil-jo8px Thankyou Sir. That is my full intention.
@@PlantsForHire Thank you Neil. I finally got it. Took longer than expected!
Stick close to the rooms and your sponsor. if you fumble just stop. Call your companion in recovery, and do not feel ashamed. It took me a while, but I've nailed it, I am 67 now. It took what it took. Grateful every day.
I can't even begin to explain how valuable I find the discussions that you and Sam Harris have with each other. It's astounding how much of what you discuss are things that I have tried to understand within my own life. Hearing many of the thoughts that I have had (both intentionally and unintentionally) spoken outloud is very refreshing and eye-opening.
100% agree, I can't believe the trivial crap out there so hugely outweighing this kind of needed intelligent conversations. Most people are totally plugged into the matrix(metaphorically speaking of the deep states ruling paradigm) and everyone who is aware can see that we could almost have heaven on earth, if we stand together and stop letting these phsycotic people divide us with racism and sexism and nationalism etc.
@@antonjoubert6980 just curious what have you learnt from Sam Harris?
@@mcrobsaccount I always disregarded concepts of meditation etc. As just the same voodoo I learned from religious indoctrination, but from listening to Sam I got enticed to give it a second look and realized there is so much wisdom in meditation and self study too gain from these ancient practises(although there still is a lot of woo in alot of these traditions related to these practices)
@@antonjoubert6980 interesting there's plenty of scienctific literature backing up the positive effects of meditation, even psychedelic effects in some cases. I also find it interesting that you dismiss religion as simply just indoctrination, I take it your not a fan, what religion were you indoctrinated into ?
@@antonjoubert6980 Mediation may control your internal strain with your internal voice, and it's opinion, but does that make abusive people vanish from your life? Does it really do anything if you are already rational, and stable internally? Meditation seems to only work if you are irrational in some type of way. Also, does meditation help you walk around with no internal voice? If so, then you just become more reactionary, and possibly animalistic without opinion. My option is to refine your rationale, and meditation is the opposite of what you should do, but is similar. You talk with yourself in many different arguments at once in your head in essence which seems opposite of the tone these 2 present here.
The depth and decency of these two men is awesome. And how they hold each other’s intellectual feet to the fire, with such rigor and compassion is truly inspiring. I could listen to them talk for hours. We’ll done gentlemen 👏🏼
thank you for your kind comments young lady, we appreciate it:)
Im watching this for the second time now and the way that Sam talks here is such a 180 from how he has been talking for the last week or so. I mean saying out loud that any form of corruption from the current goverment is justified, as long as they take out the main potential candidate of the opposition. That just goes so hard against the things he has been saying for a very long time... it makes me think about when they talked about atheism and how he asked Jordan if he believed that being an "atheist" would make him into a tyrant eventually. Jordan replied to this by saying "it would be more likely". Given the fact that Sam thinks the ends justify the means in this situation because of rational calculation, makes me believe that Jordan was right about Sam being more likely to move towards tyranney.
Harris is truth that Peterson is valiant!
Eh i’d rethink that now after the shit Harris has been saying
@@glennvoncken495 hey nice thoughts on it. Thank God youre floating around here on the WWW's
Glad to see Ben Stiller is back chatting with Jordan Peterson.
Zoolander and Kermit
Timeless joke
underrated comment
I thought I was being blazed by Blue Steel... Ty. Lol
Walter Mitty
After watching this conversation it struck me just how amazing it is I have access to this calibre of content for free and accessible anywhere anytime.
I think about that too, the dark ages wouldn’t have been dark if people could pull up a video of Aristotle giving a lecture 😂
Yes .. it’s great if you can support him by going ad free on his podcast .. Small price to pay for such great content. Support what you believe in …
@@obergssin I have purchased his book, personality course and writing course and will likely purchase future releases. I also intend to see him live on tour when he comes to my city
The love and admiration they showed each other at the end was beautiful.
Pp
These two are so dazzlingly eloquent and can communicate these insanely abstract and nuanced ideas with so much delicacy.
Saw this. Had to stop what I was doing and allocate the next 1:45:32 of my life to something that I'm sure will be useful and important. Time well spent. Thanks for all you do and say JP. Stay well!
What did you learn from it? Any actionable changes made from this info?
@@zblus Yes, he’s going to send Peterson a ‘stay well’ card. 😳
same
I've had this thought for a few years now. Imagine if netflix and all these companies commissioned a speech or lecture from people like Jordan or Sam. The same way they pay comedians for an hour long special.
They could do it with intellectuals and tell them: 2 hour lecture on any topic of your choosing. That would be the future as it seems everyone loves these long form discussions
Man, how do I get to a world were that would ever happen?
And actually help inform the masses rather than entertaining and propagandizing to them?? If any of the up-and-coming companies trying to compete with netflix have an ounce of sense, they will incorporate talks like this into their platform. Just look at the views and sold out stadiums from these kinds of talks... the public is asking for it.
Even if Netflix decided to commission something like this, viewership wouldn't hit the top 100. The intellectual community is smaller than you think.
@@dingviet4310 its also larger than you think.
I don't think that most humans are ready for such a lecture. I know in my own vicinity nobody would be interested in it. And for those who are ready, plenty of material is already available at your fingertip.
This gives me so much happiness. Two of the most intelligent and articulate people having a great conversation. That's why I love the internet.
Agreed, its a joy to see these two talk again and the internet isnt all bad :)
"I remember why we kept talking now": Jordan to Sam (at the end). That made me smile because it was exactly the kind of thought I had about halfway into the discussion. Having watched previous slightly more uncomfortable/jarring conversations between the two, it's really gratifying and enthralling to hear them together now. Keep 'em coming JP x
??? Are you blind? "This" was J.P. having Sam Harris on to see if he (J. P.) could be recognized and acknowledged by betters. J.P. was very tentative throughout this "conversation" and at the end he was very relieved that he made it through the conversation without going completely Bat-Sh** crazy. You could see the relief on Jordan's face at the end.
I've always wondered what it would be like to be a fly on the wall when the philosophers and religious titans of old met and had their discussions. Thank you for the pleasure and blessing to be a part of it now
I'd describe Harris as more of a Sophist
It would be pretty similar to being a fly on the wall when two dudes fuck. You just be sitting there vomiting your stomach contents onto the wall. Except with the dudes theres more food available on the walls
I am actually somewhat of a intellectual titan my self. Please mr. Peterson debate me
Probably like this: Acts 17:16-32 🙂
This is the Dr. Peterson I love hearing. Two great minds having a heady discussion with us in the room. Heath and peace to both of you...and to all kindred spirits really. As long as you harbor no hate in your heart, the seat is open. Welcome.
Sam seems to be not willing to step out of his "the analyst"/ "detachment" mode.
What is this mode? While in this mode, it shows us that we can experience/ spend time in the realization that we as spiritual beings can be very separated from our embodiment/ action-realm, while in that mode.
The analyst mode is something that deep meditation tends to introduce to a person (personal experience). It is a great "perception tool" in "the toolset".
But being in that mode is not where most of Sam's/ ours "daily embodied actions" take place. It's not where our social life/ organization of our society takes place. It's not where our experience with "material reality" takes place.
What I mean is, the analyst mode is not dealing with the problems of how to act in this world. That mode is pure perception. It is inherently without agency, inherently without the motivation to act.
Jordan is talking about how to determine how to make ever-better embodied actions. Sam seems to not even be interested in diving into the process of how humans did/ do that, in practice. Is it just me?
@@elektrotehnik94 Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but I believe you've committed an error in delineating Sam's position, and in understanding the "selflessness" (or "anatta") that he is describing, by characterizing it as "actionless" detachment, and disassociated from ethical action in the world; I've also heard it described as a "refusal to face the danger of actual life". I think in Sam's view, these "dangers of everyday social life" are precisely the "I" (the wrongheaded way in which people identify themselves, and the suffering which is almost entirely reducible to it), and that meditation is therefore *precisely* to face the dangers of everyday life- which on a more fundamental level are not sociological, but phenomenological: errors in how human beings interpret perception, which lead to suffering & unethical behavior.
I think also, an advanced meditator and those familiar know that a "selfless" person- in Harris' sense- is almost always in fact a person of tremendous energy and activity (Buddhism actually has strong criticisms of the kind of "becoming like a stone, sitting inactively" that I think you're describing), not just a person who perceives without agency. Think of your phrase, "embodied action", and think of what Sam is describing, how most people erroneously identify themselves AS thought which HAS a body. Sam is describing actually becoming MORE embodied. Harris is suggesting that agency is actually IMPEDED or even illusory in the mode that 99.9 people live their lives; sitting and meditating actually reveals a power for real agency.
Lastly, I think the idea that meditation/mindful awareness is akin to "a mode of pure perception without agency" is... I think it comes from the erroneous and hyper-rationalist view that we somehow THINK our way into action, which thence constitutes agency: I think this is a common-sensical view which is quite at odds with the reality of how things work; what Harris is describing is much more akin to SKILL in action, not actionlessness.
@@julianmarx2002 Thanks for letting me clarify.
@@elektrotehnik94 Well then its I who misunderstood you... I do agree with you that Harris can come off as somewhat pompous or defensive at times. But, I don't necessarily agree that everyone HAS to be outwardly playful and light all the time either. Some people are ferocious in temperament, or rather cold (like Spock) but if their heart is in the right place I think its fine. And Sam is actually quite playful (he has a whole series with Ricky Gervais for instance, which is hilarious).
@@julianmarx2002 Maybe you are right... maybe Sam has a good reason to be as he is... But I still feel Sam would benefit from meditating more :D
I'm fairly confident he has yet plenty to gain from meditation
My wife and I are Heroin addicts living in our car. We are currently in the parking lot of a psychward/Detox facility. We are sleeping in the parking lot, so tomorrow morning at 8:30am when they allow people to check in we won’t miss our chance by getting here to late. We are so excited to start living a happier and healthier life together. Both Sam and Jordan have helped us in so many ways!!! Thank you gentlemen, seriously you two are amazing people!
How you doin?
Since that post we did 30 days in rehab and have now been just over 120 days off heroin. My wife has an amazing job, and we’ve been staying in a motel, but in just under two weeks will be in a a house with good sober friends of ours who we are moving 6 hours away from Chicago to be as far away from knowing where to possibly even get heroin. So my wife will be able to do her job remote, we are doing so much better than we ever thought. We are still doing intensive outpatient three days a week as well on Skype.
@@courtneysettepani9782 Wow, that's impressive. I am very glad.
Damnit. Never give up. PLEASE TAKE KRATOM. TRY IT. ITS THE ONLY REASON IM STILL HERE......
@@jessemontano762 hey Jesse thank you so much. We’re still completely off opioids. We moved 6 1/2 hours from Chicago, so we have no clue where to even get it now. Now being in Wisconsin so far from the IL boarder we can’t get kratom., it’s illegal here, which is fucking bullshit!! We’re going back that way for a night in about a week n will 100% get like 100 ounces or something to last. Anyway I’m ranting, thank you again for your kind words and caring!
Very rare to see a real conversation between 2 brilliant minds. Thank you for this Jordan & Sam. ❤
At least 1 of them is...the other 1 is Jordan petersen.
@anything704 I am no where close to a fan of Peterson. However, he is absolutely brilliant. Just because you disagree with what he says, doesn't make him ignorant by any means.
This is a fascinating conversation. You can totally see how Sam’s neuroscience background and Jordan’s psychology background shape each of their perspectives and overlap.
Ever looked into Carl jung and Sigmund freud?
Into the sky my friend
Remember when we used value different perspectives?? Jordan and Sam are extraordinary showing us how to have a conversation respectfully when perspectives are different. We should all take a lesson from this.
To See Clearly Without the Need to Zoom in because of the quality of the lens or the software embedded in Your Brain while the mindset has actually evolved from the heart.... ❕
@Windows XP go watch the conversations they referenced at the beginning
As someone who suffers from intrusive thoughts (OCD) and was diagnosed with Asperger’s at 5 years old, this entire discussion spoke to me on such a deep level. Intellectually and psychologically stimulating would be the best way I can describe the experience of listening to these two.
Thanks to Dr. Peterson and Dr. Harris for providing such enlightenment and thought-provoking analysis over the years (and hopefully for many more to come).
@plushdogg124 I have been on a similar journey seven years ago. Good luck my friend! Work on it like your life depends on it.
Same boat over here
I was a fan of Sam Harris before Dr. Peterson's ascencion into the spotlight. I'm still a fan of both men and enjoy listening to both of them share their ideas. Very enriching stuff.
A true intellectual doesn't denounce either side of an argument. The best thing to do is seek the Truth from both sides. Even as an Atheist I am a huge fan of Jordan Peterson because he is far more than just a believer, he's a Humanist and that's just fine by me. Society needs more of that on top of reason and logic which cannot stand on its own without the wisdom of the other.
@@proudatheist2042 Indeed and well said. I will ponder what you said today. Kind regards.
@@proudatheist2042 - Well stated. I have a lot of respect for both Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. I used to be an atheist but I still have all my Sam Harris books.
God, Harris is so genuine, honest and fair. He seems so calm and friendly and kind. Again, what I see here reaffirms that. I have always struggled to understand people who hate Harris. This has led me to hypothesize that people hate him because he doesn't fail in arguing against people. He makes so good points that people either have to accept them or do mental gymnastics to avoid them, and this leads SOME people to use a rather childish tactic of painting him as this bad guy.
Oh I don't hate him, I disagree with much of what he says about God, but I don't hate him :D
Well there is his acceptance of murderous Pedophelia as long as Trump is gone. His own words
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn Harris said nothing about "God". He comments on the Theory / Belief / Idea of a God. Harris knows there is no god thing.
@@124xhappeleshows He says God doesn’t exist; I think the case that He does exist is much stronger.
Some of it is partly justified, in him using purposefully stilted language and overly relying on a soothing voice which can com across as almost manipulative.
I think most of the current blowback against Harris is from him falling into Trump Derangement Syndrome and losing all sense of logic around the topic. And now getting into spats about it with other thinkers. Unbelievable how badly Trump messed him up.
I wonder if even the Universities in todays time actually go through such deep content or conversations. An episode like this really takes you on a ride and teaches you to think pretty critically. So great to see Jordan and Sam discuss.
I don't think these conversations can happen in the class. After class...yes.
Just graduated. It's disgusting that most of my teachers weren't themselves supporters of being critical except when it comes to criticising the intellect of the student.
For once I risked it all and went loose on one of them. Truly something I would recommend everyone to do (IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT). They humbled themselves from then on. Never had the guts to do that.
They don’t
@@zakariab9591 You are very brave for that and I admire you for standing up against authoritative figures who try to suppress free speech and critical thinking. It truly is disgusting how the society we live in in the west tries to superimpose their ideology and discourages contemplation and finding our own truth, not that which has been forced upon us.
You can bet it starts and ends with how much does it cost
I have noticed a gradual increase in suffering from the moment my meditation habit started crumbling a couple of months ago.
In some sense you could say I am waking up to the fact that the waking up app has drastically reduced my suffering in times of consistent practice.
Thank you Jordan and Sam for the lovely conversation. 🙏
Meditation (or other similar spiritual practice) has that "grounding effect" on a person
Do you know what meditating cutting firewood taking care of animals taken care of your children taking care of your home and doing your work whatever that is you won’t have time to be needing to meditate your work is your meditation your humbling yourself
Could you explain shortly how this app is a help, as opposed to for instance just meditating old school? What does it do and how does it help? Gives you reminders for example?
Man . . . it is so damned good to see these two discussing things again . . . and how exciting and invigorating their conversations are! I will be seeing Jordan Peterson speak live here in Southern California in a couple of months or so (my sister bought the tickets and invited me . . . both of my sisters are awesome!) . . . What an absolute treasure these two are.
Hoping with everything that is in me that Jordan Peterson gets plenty of rest and stays healthy . . .
Iam going to a lecture too, in June. Finally got tickets. Peterson is back and got himself a big tour in 2022. Just need to see a live show and Peterson is almost 60. Maybe he quits or ritire after this year. Enjoy your show 👍
You can tell they've both grown from the past discussions.... from spending two hours at an impasse on the definition of the word "truth" to this
Iove that idea about this moment being potentially fresh and meditation leading to this. Breaking on through to the other side - transcending our ideas and labels and artificial concepts.
This is a fabulous conversation, I'm getting so much out of listening to people who have spent a great deal of time groping around in the dark, with a lighter, helping the rest of us who haven't figured out what the lighter is for.
The understanding that you guys have and from different angles on these central topics, is giving me almost psychedelic like self reflection and healing and restoring akin to love.
Thank you guys! Amazing!
Harris really does bring the best out of Peterson, I think. What I would give to have this monthly! Thanks to the both of you.
imagination is greater than knowledge. an artists will always be able to debunk an logician.
Love when these two link up. If you haven't seen their debate videos, you can find them on UA-cam and they are MASTERFUL
Sam Harris is a colossal fraud.
It's sad that Jordan is still talking to him 👎🏼
It would be better if Sam was programmed to have a personality
@@john_g_henderson a
@@john_g_henderson aside from his tds Sam is pretty brilliant
Yes Jordan! More events with Sam. I could listen to you two talk all day. Absolutely captivating content.
Add Douglas Murray in as well
@@ChillAssTurtle You're thinking of Stefan Molyneux, dude. Douglas Murray is a totally different guy..
@@ChillAssTurtle I think you are confusing him with Charles Murray.
Honestly I like their private conversations more than the public ones. Their public events seemed more competitive while the podcasts seem more productive with finding common ground. Also I didn’t like the interruptions of the cheering that much. Still enjoy all of their conversations deeply!
@Andy Mann such nonsense!
interesting how Jordan was nearly in tears by the end... hes so happy to be back I think ...im glad to see him speaking and debating.
love both yall Jordan and sam
He tears up more often now.
I think they both have perform a truly genuine conversation, and sam has touch peterson's heart in some way, that's why he's crying
@@PoetlaureateNFDL i think his journey to sober up has cracked open his heart and connected him directly to source.
@@bendietreeswhat do you mean “sober up”?
Two important giants in the world trying to do the 'highest good'. Two different approaches entirely but with mutual respect on both sides. Let's keep this conversation going.....a weekly chat on a Netflix series would be amazing.
Agreed! It seems like it ended just as it was getting started.
Sorry, but there was only one giant & a fool in this conversation! Jordan was the giant btw!
Imagine a documentary style where the two of them travel the world visiting sacred sites and dissecting the ideology. Then at the end of the whole thing being in lab explaining the science behind neuro pathways.
Neither of these "giants" can give anyone eternal life. Jesus Christ can and will. The entire human race is on "death row" not just those in prison. The most important problem every man has is death. For all of their "wisdom" neither of these men can provide what men need most. They cannot even save themselves from death.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from DEATH unto LIFE."
John 10:28 "And I give unto them ETERNAL LIFE; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 5:40 "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
That would be too good to be true
I love how Peterson always goes out of his way to try to Steelman rather than strawman whoever he is having a discussion with. It is so refreshing.
Yes, he constantly tries to make the other parties argument stronger, even though it´s a point of view he disagrees with.
Both Sam and Jordan value intellectual honesty/exploration above debate victory optics.
@@snackentity5709 a wonderful thing and great example for all
Shame he doesn’t do that on Twitter
@@Texan_American It was a respectful conversation
It's a privilege to witness this discussion between two people I respect so much. Each of these people are making immense effort to sincerely and honestly find solutions to the biggest questions and most intractable issues of our time. I recommend anyone not already familiar with either of their work to dig deep and explore their work sooner than later.
Thank you to both of you for taking the time to share so much with us.
@@m3awna Thank you for sharing your perspective Farid. I also can't agree with everything either Peterson or Harris say. What impresses me the most is that the things they teach that are the most impactful, I agree with entirely. That's a hard combination to find these days. As far as who's behind Harris, keep in mind he has constructed an incentive structure for himself and his organization that is immune at best and resistant at worst to undue interference from the outside. We are all fallible, but Harris seems to be on the correct track.
Two intellectual titans. Pushing the absolute limit of human understanding. The most complex and demanding conversations in history. I love the way they respect each other and I bow down to both of them. Thanks for this gents.
Wait till you see a conversation about phisics lol
You have articulated my thoughts on both this interaction between the two persons and my views on them as individuals.
J. Peterson all I can continue to say is thank you for all you do for all of us. While my life is pretty difficult at the moment, your talks have given me the ability to keep going and see the light in all the darkness. Finding meaning in everything I do and why I do it. It’s help me stay in a positive state through my difficult sickness that I’m going through. Thank you !
surrender surrender surrender surrender surrender surrender to god
@@mikelisteral7863 it’s the most difficult thing because it means to lose control and have solely have faith in Gods will… to the point of death and or believe that your sickness will end you …. Its been difficult. Raised in the Catholic faith and Jordan has help me understand my faith and truly appreciate my faith.
You have to hang on and get out of social conditioning. You have to create your own way of thinking
Surrender to God as in he came with his army and ripped the village apart killed all the men raped the women and took the children that God
Ynwa mate
Great discussion as always, The only problem i have about this Podcast is that it has an end. While all the stupidity around me is endless.
Everyone is in their own realm of reality. Peterson & Harris are Phd. ‘S. The majority of people are blue collar workers & proletariat. Those sectors require people to be repeat pattern - operators. In order to fit in - there are other aspects of the person that have to be sacrificed ( ie not developed & nurtured ) .
> Patience will help you navigate the not as intelligent among us.
> And know - that we each have value/ regardless.
the very lovely Sam Harris: "What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime-as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day-but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own. All of this is perfectly insane, of course: I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world’s population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher’s stone, and unicorns."
@@zeeshanahmad4161 that was a Sam Harris quote
@@someguy5063 Apologies!
@@someguy5063 I personally believe that their isn't going to be a nuclear war in the near future in the ist place. But if it happened its would be from a non Muslim country, probably from US or Israel against a probable non Muslim country I.e China or Russia or possibly muslim country Iran.
So lucky that we can watch great minds like Jordan and Sam engage, debate and question all things, Thank you.
I agree about Jordan being a great mind, but Sam...not so much.
No kidding S.H. is FULL OF HIMSELF!
^^^ examples of dogmatic ideology and bias are center stage above me
And We demand more Good Sirs!
Sam Harris is a legitimate intellectual , Jordan Peterson is frankly the Canadian version of Deepak Chopra .
I could happily listen to these two discuss anything. Both show incredible depths of mind & mental agility & want the best for humanity. There's simply nothing to dislike regardless of one's own opinion. The level of respect they have for each other speaks volumes in how to move forwards healthily.
The amount of truth and ideas packed into the ongoing dialogue between these two has been hugely edifying and orienting for me, especially since recently starting a family. *THANKS DR. PETERSON* 🙏🏽
fancy seeing you here
Love your channel sir. Good to see you here.
173880 proves when the Christ would come. Chuck Missler saved me.
Can you find the hidden cross in numbers chapter 2?
What do the names mean in Genesis chapter 5?
Electric resistivity scans proves Noah’s ark in Turkey!
congratulations on your new baby!
Is Sam harmful?
I am always relieved when I can listen to Jordan and he isn't constantly talking over his guest. These two are more pleasant to listen to in this conversation than in past recordings I have heard.
Oh good he doesnt in this? Im just starting and was hoping JP didnt over talk and Sam isnt claiming vaccine necessity is as obvious as necessity of oxygen. Im not seeing any comment on Sams unwillingness to discuss pandemic.. maybe that is not discussed..
hmmm
@@Think-dont-believe That's just not the topic of this podcast and it doesn't have to be. Covid will pass, the topic of this podcast will not.
I love seeing you two having a relationship and these ongoing conversations. Thank you both for all the work you have put into your lives and your work, and for having this conversation.
Jordan really has an amazing ability to state his case in such an enlightened way. He makes the confused come to grips with facts. Sam on the other hand is so confused on facts and makes you want change the channel in frustration.
@@heynow01 enjoy them both. Don't take them for granted.
No one who does it like you two. Please never stop having these kinds of conversation with each other. Do not be shy about your greatness, the two of you are speer-heading contemporary philosophical and socio-cultural discourse.
If you think those two are "speer-heading contemporary philosophical and socio-cultural discourse" you most likely are not very up-to-date on those matters and only know those two thinkers, whose purely circumstantial and lucky mediatic success makes them more easily known than others who have done more, quantitatively and qualitatively.
For real .
For real .
For real .
@@bazingacurta2567would you mind recommending some people then? i am very eager to learn
Them saying goodbye to each other just about had me in tears. Touching.
bit awkward eh?
Me too! Genuine love and admiration for each other. So refreshing.
@@mr.goldfish7473 not at all, it is just your projection anyway two beautiful souls looking to make good in this earth
@@mr.goldfish7473 just the regular stuff that comes with communicating on zoom
Listening to these chaps I actually feel somewhat more optimistic for the future than i did. The fact i can listen to people like this for free is actually a great and encouraging thing. There is much fear about the soft power mafia of the technocracy, arts media and culture (and rightly so) but they’ve always been a shady bunch who’ve choked free narratives- at least now we have access to people and ideas like this. Thanks to UA-cam and The Drs
Why? Sam Harris openly and proudly supports the parties of censorship and mandates.
Just as an aside this isn’t always the easiest conversation to follow. Sams propensity to thread a very complex epistemological strand through the eye of a hard to imagine, abstract needle is impressive :) … maybe my IQ and cognitive RAM is just not up to the job though
@@MrAhuraMazda I don’t know about that sir. But I suppose i meant more generally as a phenomenon. That people are able to connect with a larger sea of ideas. In my youth there was 4 TV channels and 6 newspapers in the UK. That was a very easy landscape for the ‘Metro elite’ to seize and control. I think we’re far more aware of how a small group is doing that now and platforms like these (UA-cam) are helping us.
JP and Sam Harris have the same audience.
Most of their audience is the typical Joe Rogan crowd. Majority Right wing frustrated men.
They themselves have acknowledged this, they personally say that their audiences overlap on about 80% of the issue besides religion and some political issues.
These kinds of discussions have been such a positive influence on my life. Harris was there right from the start of the medium alongside people like Dawkins and Hitchens, and now Peterson brings such a powerful, articulate, and new (at least to me) perspective to things. I can't fathom why there are not many more superstars of this medium yet bringing the discussion of complex ideas to the masses.
@@TotsugekiKun I think I more or less agree with your assessment. I think it's pretty clear that your accusations towards idealogues are justified. However I have no issue with most of these idealogues no matter how much power they wield. If militant idealogues didn't attack JP, this discussion may never have happened for example. I actually think that under normal circumstances the idealogue problem you're talking about is a self-normalizing wave for that reason.
Except for one external factor that is new: the dismantling of neutral publishing.
The ability to publish needs to be as neutral as possible, be it books, tweets, videos, lectures, etc..
That's where I start to get worried personally. Book publishers, Social Media companies, and video platforms are being overtaken by these radical idealogues you speak of.
I've been pondering the possibility of a certification criteria, which would set out the guidelines for neutral publishing platforms. It wouldn't be entirely dissimilar to something like organic food certification, wherein people can see if the platforms they're using have harmful or manipulative covert algorithms, or they in fact have reasonably neutral publishing criteria. I also think that addictive and manipulative algorithms are akin to cigarettes in their harm to society, and should have warnings associated with them.
There have always been many wise minds like them trying to bring truth to us
Jewden petetson
.... how did this change your life, i can help you alot with it and do in in 5 sec... ready? "Use ur brain"... tadaaaaaa!!
For one, not many people are as intelligent as these guys. Secondly, these guys have dedicated thousands of hours each year, for decades to reading and writing on these topics. That level of discipline and dedication is rare.
Whether you agree with Sam or Jordan or both, I think what they're doing (as well as others like them) is showing the rest of us of how valuable it is to be able to talk with each other and discover where we agree on certain topics, and where we disagree on certain topics.
my favorite conversations... these 2...we need free-thinkers like this; agreeing/disagreeing... but learning and evolving stances through acquiring and parsing what they've learned.
Peterson and Harris, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you !!. You two have brought me such a tremendous amount of joy, intellectual stimulans and most of all personal improvement. I really hope there will be more conversations like these. And I Wish you both all the best in the future.
That experimmmetnal dddrug called the bcovvid druggg is causing the hearttt atttackks of young athelllets on the fieeld. Wakke up.
JACK FROSTY We can only hope Mr Frosty
@@jackfrosty4674 what on earth are you talking about and what does that have to do with what I just said?? 😆🤔
I don't know if you'd both be able to find the time, but there is HUGE potential for a regular Peterson/Harris podcast, separate from your own individual ones. You two seem to have a unique relationship where you approach things from completely different angles, yet often seem to reach similar conclusions with an odd blend of conversation, debate, agreement, argument. And it's all with 100% good faith. It's compelling viewing 👍
A conversation combining viewpoints from neuroscience, ethics, (17-20th century) psychology and philosophy always makes for a compelling listen especially from the minds of JP and SH.
@Andy Mann
Stop projecting.
@Andy Mann
Just because you can’t remember or understand something does not mean others can’t follow along.
Again stop projecting your inadequacies onto everyone else.
@Andy Mann In just 1 hour 45 minutes they give us enough content to keep coming back. It's like reading a complex book. You can't just understand all of it in one sitting.
Harris called humans Apes. Doesn’t seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed.
I'm an educator and I suggest these podcasts to all my students. Thank you for your work Dr Peterson.
Really? You cannot recommend something better to them?
I rarely listen to podcasts as long as this one. But with them two, no way I could skip to other podcasts. Love them both!
Jordan talks about the roots of anything or anyone's issues with a very fine tooth and comb. I love the topics he speaks on. Usually the ones that matter to humanity's well being, and communicating with every different ways of thinking 🤔. I love his podcast!
these kind of conversations give me so much hope, less arguing to argue and more of this ❤ everytime JP said something like "I'm not trying to corner you" it made me smile. How can we ever talk through and learn if everything is a fight and we can never misspeak or change our mind. As a religious person I usually struggle with Sam Harris and feel he is condescending to what I believe but found him fascinating here :)
sam is a materialist who is trying to squeeze spirituality into his materialism
@@mikelisteral7863 spot on. nothing can explain or sum him up better than the manner you succinctly put here.
@@Arafat-my6fe sam gets alot of happiness from intellectualizing about his material reality. and therefore is not ready to give it up and jump off the deep end in meditation.
@@mikelisteral7863 Sam speaks about spirituality all the time, as well as the significance, relevance, and doubtlessness of spiritual experiences..... you clearly are unfamiliar with Sam's work.
@@mikelisteral7863 At the end of the day we do have to rely on the material and occasionally sprinkle some spiritually on it to make life more meaningful. Most religious stories are fantasies (until proven otherwise) that inspire people to do good, but for more sophisticated people it's not enough just to imagine things without evidence.
I've missed this version of Sam Harris so much that I almost feel like crying.
So good to see him.
Politics ruins everything.
I went to the O2 event in London and had a blast. It's great to see Sam and Jordan engaging again and talking fondly of one another and remembering those big events.
So much has happened since last time they talked. This conversation is so needed.
Sam Harris is a colossal fraud.
@@dash_r_media Why? I'm seriously asking. Used to listen to the guy years ago, but then just sort of stopped. No clue what he's been doing for the past 5 to 6 years.
So much has happened since THIS conversation, including 9 whole months.
@@allotrope2978 true. I do remember one of them tweeting at the other when they recorded it. Had forgot it was even coming down the pipeline.
@@dlon9067 I was a huge fan for a long time but he developed "TDS". It's a bit of a hyperbolic term but nonetheless it's an accurate description. He now associates all sorts of ideas with trumpism. Vaccine hesitancy and the atrocious and authoritarian response to covid by governments around the world in particular. I was willing to let a lot of the other stuff go but this one is so obviously shady that I can't just agree to disagree. Sam is definitely still a strong critical thinker but he succumbed to leftist rhetoric on some level and for whatever reason is all the way to the point of strawmanning and oversimplified the positions of legitimately knowledgeable people who have a different opinion on the whole covid narrative.
what always stuck me was the obvious synergy between Sam's premise of being able to derive morality via Science and Jordan's work to scientifically understand the importance of mythology
sam makes an age old mistake of confusing morality with utilitarianism. morality does not come from good, it comes from our sense of fairness which comes from the fact we are all equal on the human level.
@@mikelisteral7863 biology says otherwise.
@@mikelisteral7863 What do you mean "we're all equal on the human level"? And why only on the human level? Identifying with the species? Morality stems from a sense of belonging, i.e. tribalism? It's interesting to note here that that's almost entirely a mammalian thing, as far as I'm aware amphibians and reptilians don't have that thing (ingroup vs outgroup, herd mentality, abstraction about belonging in a collective). Just saying.
@@Realivangarcia i did not say we are identical. i said we are all equal on the human level. you are human and i am human and therefore fairness is objectively correct.
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 morality has nothing to do with belonging. our emotions are programmed to keep us in a tribe. but morality is rooted in our sense of fairness not sams utility or hedonism root.
It’s always a pleasure to see both of them together. Both Sam and Jordan played an important role in the development of my psyche, and my ability to connect with my consciousness in a deeper level. Thank you, gents!
Sam Harris is actually really stupid and just pretends to be as smart as JP
Same for me, it's was heart breaking to watch the community divide into team JP or team Sam Harris and start acting like children resorting to just name calling.
Anyone calling Sam Harris stupid is choosing to be blinded by their confirmation biases.
@@Max_Power100 Hes not stupid, he has worked hard and succeeded although I don't agree with him on alot, that doesn't mean you treat him the way the mainstream media treat Dr Peterson
Harris is an intellectual phony he just parrots books he has read..Peterson has done real research
My mind has no business being this expanded, but here we are. Who am I , and then what do I DO with that?! Food for thought indeed. I feel such a deep love for both of you, thank you so much
JP, you are spoiling us with all this free knowledge lately! Top notch conversations, almost every day.
It’s hard to focus on college course material with all this content dropping, watch Jordan recent appearance on PBD podcast, it’s good
Sam seems to be not willing to step out of his "the analyst"/ "detachment" mode.
What is this mode? While in this mode, it shows us that we can experience/ spend time in the realization that we as spiritual beings can be very separated from our embodiment/ action-realm, while in that mode.
The analyst mode is something that deep meditation tends to introduce to a person (personal experience). It is a great "perception tool" in "the toolset".
But being in that mode is not where most of Sam's/ ours "daily embodied actions" take place. It's not where our social life/ organization of our society takes place. It's not where our experience with "material reality" takes place.
What I mean is, the analyst mode is not dealing with the problems of how to act in this world. That mode is pure perception. It is inherently without agency, inherently without the motivation to act.
Jordan is talking about how to determine how to make ever-better embodied actions. Sam seems to not even be interested in diving into the process of how humans did/ do that, in practice. Is it just me?
@@elektrotehnik94, it's not just you. The way you said it was very eloquent, though. I was not going to be so charitable. But since you were, I will be.
I really appreciate how thought-provoking JP's questions are. I admire how JP, who seems to have nearly endless knowledge about so many things--even things he claims he has not much knowledge of (he's truly humble), can understand the other person's point of view so well that he even helps make the other person's point, even when that other person doesn't realize he is not making a point or that he, himself, is sabotaging his own point (the times when he seems to have one--a point, I mean).
@@davidbeaumont244 Demonizing a blind man (Sam Harris) for not seeing is not helping.
It might feel good, but it's not helping.
You help convince him to get the operation making him see again. That actually helps, helps both of you
You get a like just for your name . LOL!
It always blows me away. I stumbled across sam probably 7 years ago, and jordan probably 5. Found totally independent of each other. And as a simple, curious and observant young man, I quickly identified that I felt this was the two smartest public intellectuals I’ve personally observed. When they cross paths in a situation like this, regardless of who or what I agree with, it really demonstrates to me just how sophisticated, refined, and deeply intelligent a very select few people in the world are. This is like the intellectual version of watching the two best athletes or teams of a given sport cross paths.
No. Peterson is not the intellectual you imagine. He is a skilled sophist.
I'd hold Hitchens a couple of steps above them both. Check him out if you haven't yet.
@@jonathanj2666 I know hitchens quite well. Hold him in very high regard. Especially his aural presence, argumentation and ability. Very few can hold court in the way he could. I would say in an outright intellectual capacity he wasn’t quite as competent as these two, though in a purely debate/presentation scenario I think he was better than either of these two. Good comment and observation, thanks 😊
@@frederickvandenheuvel479 That's really not fair at all. I agree there's some sophistry there, but there's a lot of real insight as well. Nobody is perfect.
@@Zeuts85 there's no sophistry really, Peterson expresses himself in very allegorical ways, which is the "mystical" way of communicating experience. The Tao cannot be read literally, Musashi's Five Rings cannot be read literally, and the Bible makes much more sense interpreted this way.
People like Frederick have "no depth", that's why he's building traction in the comment section of a person he hates.
Wow - that was quite something. Sometimes I find these intellectual discussions a little difficult to connect with, but this one felt grounded in experience I could relate to. Thank you to both speakers!
Agreed.
I saw and met them both when they toured to Dublin. It was the most boring conversation ever. You can watch that entire tour on UA-cam I think.
I'm a big fan of both. But I nearly fell asleep...
This conversation was incredible. 2 intellectual heavyweights. I would pay to see them speak again.
Please listen again, Peterson uses sophist tools.
@@frederickvandenheuvel479 Can you be more specific?
@@ClanMacqueen Before his explosive popularity, Peterson was a talking head in Ontario for a decade or more, weighing in on various topics. Heard him many times. His debating skill was evident and convincing. But, if you paid attention, you could tell he’d adjust the underlying argument or obfuscate the discussion. Listen to him - he’s good - but listen again with a critical ear. Admittedly, Peterson is mostly acquiescent in this discussion. I recommend you go back and listen to his past arguments.
Nevertheless, at 55:55 and 1:11:50 he pushes a bit (not sure my times are exactly right). Beginning at 1:14 things get odd. Criticism of the sacred, of something that cannot be questioned, sets him off… Curious, considering the 55:55 point regarding totalitarianism.
I really appreciate how these men engage in a deep, difficult discussion without trying to talk over the other to make a point. Voice volume remains constant even when disagreement is obviously present. They are both skilled listeners. TV personalities could learn a lot from these two men.
Good luck trying that with a laydee, haha 😄
Appreciate your intellect and thoughtfulness in making this important observation. Nicely stated.
ehh, i actually felt jordan kept interrupting sam’s line of thinking one too many times in this… got kinda annoying
WHERE is it that Sam Harris does the BIG REVEAL... on his Anti-Trump Delusions?
They are entertainers
Watching Jordan's sincere and relentless quest for truth is so inspiring that my admiration for him actually distracts my mind from following his protracted arguments all the way to the end. Smile, admire, rewind... smile, admire, rewind... now I understand what Sisyphus must have felt like.
@Andy Mann EVEN if you were right, that you are one of the true and best people on earth: by the way in which you've chosen to communicate, you've abdicated that moral/epistemological superiority. It's literally oxymoronic to be a superior person, and to then say "I have better morals" and condescend to a simple comment as that woman's so rudely. Hopefully this is evident to you
@Andy Mann I hope you feel better soon and get rid of this disease. Sounds terrible.
I love to listen to the discussions you have with Sam, I find them so engaging that I can't even get distracted for like more than 1 hour and that's saying something to me.
Two of my favorite contemporary public minds in Sam & Jordan.
Harris really interpolated a profound premise on how true spiritual access would need to be beyond any existing written documents or ideas, and available if our species universally started from zero, to qualify as real direct transcendence of self.
1:33:40
This would invalidate the teachings of the Buddha.
@@robroy6072 not at all. Buddha never claimed to have a monopoly on spiritual access. In fact, Advaita Vedanta predated him by at least 5000years and was widely known throughout Siddhartha’s region when he transcended Atman to Bodhi. The Buddha understood vidya of the Source was universal and could be reached a multitude of ways, but shared the Middle Path and the Heart Sutra that was his awakening modality.
@@Evanderj I never claimed that Buddha claimed a monopoly. Now we are off on a tangent of misunderstanding. To clarify, while I understand that it is said the teachings of the Buddha could be reconstructed in future (or past) ages from scratch, after the Dharma degrades., the reality is that we, and Sam know of these ideas through real historical events, the writing of the Vedas and the Life of the Buddha. Sam makes the mistake of many American Buddhists or separating Nirvana from Samsara. It is a psychological parallel to him trying to separate Buddhism from the spiritual quest, making it a sanitized materialist "science of mind". It is beyond any science vs spirituality binary.
Thanks!
Great episode! To touch on the final point, psilocybin changed the course of my life during the darkest moments of 2020. I am in 100% agreeance that this is not a “magic pill”, and rather a reminder of where you are… Here, and Now. It made me realize that depression lives in the past, and anxiety, in the future. Begin every day, every decision, and every moment with intent, and remember… There is no time like the present.
I found God through a terrible psilocybin trip. It was very humbling.
@@SixtiesStick yes, those are one of the side effects
The indigenous used those hallucinations to access the spirit world. Sam is so lost that he’s yearning for anything supernatural. His only resources seem to be drugs and meditation, which are ACTUALLY tools to interact with the supernatural.
Great to har that psilocybin helped you. It did for me, too. For the first time in over ten years, I wasn't anxious around people, and rather filled with friendliness and joy. There was a peculiar sense of non-judgement. The lingering mellowness of the after effects was notable, too. And when the going gets rough, I just go to those memories to remind myself that joy and peace of mind is possible.
Also agree that it's not a magic pill and should be handled with the outmost respect.
@@SixtiesStick I saw and felt the land of God in the parting of a cumulonimbus cloud during my trip, and really felt that God was the interconnectedness and totality of all that is.
This was almost spiritual. Above anything else I got from this conversation, I'm touched.
What is the domain of the mind, and the shared thoughts and intentions of people who live besides that? It’s literal immaterial reality.
These are domains of society, where ones thoughts translate into reality, enter another’s senses, and become a portion of the thoughts in their head, and then inform their next action in the physical. That’s 2 out of 300,000,000 doing that all the time. Add in the literally uncountable interactions of this material domain, with the collective domains of all of us, and the ones that came before, and the ones that will come after. That’s at least a portion of what mystics were trying to talk about.
The unseen that molds our world. Christians name at least three domains here. The World. Which is us here. Our society.
The Flesh which is compelled and impelled by a cacophony of immaterial processes. Made of Information that does not truly physically mean anything until the structure and machinery of our bodies was set upon those molecular instructions. Called DNA.
And then the Devil is our third domain. Which is what is immaterial and not good, and ends in death for us and corruption. Destruction and malice. Those things, which purposes live in us and the world, whose end is to steal, kill, and destroy. Catholics would call that something like Hell. But more accurate readings in my understanding are death. Which is the ceasing of this immaterial stuff. Which is called spirit. And called life. Well more accurately they call true life the manifestation of that immaterial us, without ceasing. The assertion being that what is truly good is what can or ought to last forever. And not just forever, but to transcend the limits of time and space itself.
Now we can’t do that. This universe will end, but that which informs us, ought to be what would stand forever, if we did not know of our end. That’s transcendent good. There’s also transcendent evil. But the manifestation of the devil is good enough. And that’s because the claim of Christianity, which is announcing the victory of transcendent good. That those who believe even if we die, our action ought to be made to last eternally, as the standard, even though we die. That’s what they call true Faith. The final victory of good and redemption, claiming that if you abstain from the lesser paths of your fathers, and instead cling to the ways to the father of your Faith, which is Abraham, all of that immaterial life that was good, will end for only a time. You’ll fade, but your good will be accounted to you for your faith. And will be yours again through this Christ figure.
After that we get into what is evil. How it contrasts good. And the idea that we manifest our own corruption which leads to our death, and severance from life. And the idea of a Messiah. Who is what we couldn’t be, which is that transcendent good. Anyway that’s not super critical and requires a lot of working, and it may not be relevant. What I listed is cohesive enough to explain spiritual conceptions of life and goodness, and how they connect to this scientifically observable reality between our ears, and between us as groups of people. Sorry if that’s a lot.
Or that’s my collective understanding. It’s… Not argued doctrine, just my personal understanding. Which are… Theologically based, and therefore arguable, but I claim no particular school.
@@chickenmonger123 stop it.
@@johnjaso385 You don't like something? I only mentioned it because I thought it was relevant,, and it's an concept I have been working through. The point is not to proselytize. Got no church. The farthest from it actually. I just thought that someone might find interesting and would engage. Maybe I misjudged the comment, and it doesn't communicate well? Or the audience? I do not claim skill or intelligence, it's just the best way I can manage to write it.
So what's your criticism? I actually am interested in understanding it. No cap.
Beautiful to see so much mutual respect between two intellectual giants. Hopefully they will never lose it.
Intellectual and Giant is not two words I would use together when describing Harris. I used to have some respect for the guy until he went off the deep end with TDS. Having said this as someone who doesn't really care a whole lot for Trump.
@@mountedpatrolman Harris isn't hiding his _very_ deep despise for Trump, which is a weakness, i think. Yet he isn't the typical "orange man-bad" guy some like him to be. He goes into full detail about his criticism in countless podcasts and i do respect that. Not his method but his content.
@@mountedpatrolman you can’t be an intellectual and not find Trump problematic.
@@lowroad4257 "You can't be an intellectual" and realize Trump is "problematic" (nice leftist buzzword there), and realize he also did some very good things. Not accepting that means you are in fact an idiot.
You two are always great together, i could listen all day, thank you!
Sam and Jordan have a fantastic chemistry. I think they mix in a very particular way that results in brilliant conversations. They're almost like a yin and yang.
Listening to you two gentlemen having this conversation makes me laugh at times and cry at times. I have been unable to have a real conversation for years with people in my life as they get angry with me for not agreeing with them. And I want proof to decide what I believe and they seem to except what other people say as truth. I am old now including having a stroke. Perhaps I had the stroke about the right time in my life as I needed to think why I believed what I thought I believed before the stroke. Now only 33 minutes into this video I have taken 5 breaks as I find it very emotional. If this make any sense... now back to you gentlemen.
Welcome to the fold
Good luck in your quest for truth. You can look at your stroke as a means of rebirth in a way.
We can talk on zoom / skype for a few minutes if you want.
@@humblepiebytheslice1465 Yes I agree
@@Provoker7 I am imagining that you are human with a nick name AI. I think AI the machine can be used for good but in this new world order it will be used much more for evil in our future taking taking away our liberty and freedom. Even much more for our grand children.
Having listened to all of your conversations and lectures together, this was by far my favourite. The respect was palpable and the comfort that stemmed from that led to a brilliant discussion! Would love to see another!
Well, have a look at this if you want to find what Islam really means: ''The Words'' written by Said Nursi. Now this is one of those books you may never have encountered before and in it you can find amazing analogies and stories... just write: ''e risale english'' and it will come up at the top :)
I'm curious... why does character, respect, or sincerity matter....?? Why should anyone value these things...??
Thank God for Sam Harris and his ineffable clarity about the problems of religion. ❤️❤️❤️
Uh. Maybe check your wording. Also, he is pretentious and really just a know-it-all who speaks well enough to convince people that his ideas make sense.
Same. It’s nice to see Sam exposing it. Because it’s been known in history of what religion has done to people through the years. Based of different beliefs or interesting in the same sex and other horrifying things of crimes it’s done.
Two of my favourite contemporary philosophers having a respectful and thoughtful discussion. This is way better entertainment than most other forms of media. Love it!
“Philosophers”
"inverted commas"
Wow. How these two beautiful human beings say farewell after a debate always makes me tear up a little bit. I can't help to see it as a celebration of science. Science is where debates are had with a potentially blinding intensity but never at the cost of manners. A true recipe for an anstounding amount of good in the world.
Thank you both!
@Andy Mann yeah nah, I wouldn't link sexuality to their manners. Probably just something like openness, but some people clearly lack that, lol
@Andy Mann Do you have a site, blog, or podcast where I can read/listen to your work?
@@jayt8532 😄😄
I concede to the troll
@Andy Mann You may get a more satisfying response to your trolling from a different kind of podcast. I hope you find what you need somewhere, if all else fails, try meditation, Sam has a great app which you can try for free 😉
it makes me feel happy to realise how appreciative Jordon and Sam are to have these conversations. They both have such great minds which find their match in each other.
I know, it's like Gandalf and Dumbledore met. Or something:P
@@Fnelrbnef yes.....and better !
I am a survivor of a serious Brain injury, And all of the words you use have a very deep and explanatory meaning to me. Bravo Keep it up!
Thank you, that is all I can say. Your conversations are so incredibly honest, thoughtful, thought-provoking, and important. I love that you invite us all in to join you. These conversations are a kind of meditation in and of themselves, a filet mignon with fine wine for my mind. Again, thank you.
Or bread and water, to the starved.
Having watched many of your discussions with Sam it is good to see that you have arrived at a more peaceful dialogue and are no longer demonstrating the immense rift between the theist and atheist that we see so much of in the world. We are allies, not enemies as Jesus didn't tell us to kill each other but to love each other.
This is a demonstration of that love even when you disagree with each other.
Thank you both.
@Maggie Smith when I wrote that post I hadn't seen the entire conversation and the part where he was trying to get his angle in there.
But in his original discussions he was much more adamant about it.
@Maggie Smith momma said Sam Harris is the Devil!!
I have had a drink problem for year's. It hit home when you said the only treatment for alcoholics is spiritual transformation. That is the path I'm seeking, before it's too late.
Thank you Dr. Peterson. 🙏🏻💜
Sober for about 18 months now and couldn't agree more. Good luck on the path my friend. You're not alone!
Best wishes to you in your journey.
@Martin Luther Indeed He saves. That gem of a book, the scriptures. Never drank or smoked or consumed anything that’s bad for health :) that wasn’t my issue but life and its trauma, the kind that debilitates psychologically and emotionally, what they these days so reductively dub ‘mental health’ problems, THAT is what Jesus pulled me out of; twenty five years back, and life hasn’t necessarily been a bed of roses since but it has never been the same either. Absolutely untouchable peace and joy through life’s trials 💪🏾💃 It always gladdens my heart to find someone who has been touched and healed like that. God speed, Pilgrim!
You know Andrew, in Islam, drinking alcohol is prohibited. Therefore, if you would consider to become Muslim after looking deeper into the religion from the right sources, it would solve your drinking problem for once and for all :)
@Martin Luther Hihi Well firstly buddy, freely conversing with one another is a valuable thing. Second, I'm a woman.
I was in the London event and I noticed that people around me were clapping for both Sam and Jordan, so eventhough the Sam and JOrdan disagreed they made points that were rewarded by same members of the audience that was exciting and how things should be. Very rarely big questions are black and white and even contradicting things can exist at the same time. This would be so important to introduce back into the conversations in social media to make the conversations more adult and reflecting more the complex reality.
How did the audience react when Sam asked Jordan if he believed christ was resurrected and Jordy sat there with his thumb up his butt?
thank you JP you have completely turn around my life . am getting my self togther still battling depression and anxiety but am doing my best.
.. much love all the way from TANZANIA
So glad these two decided to have another conversation - Their debates were some of the first content I ever saw of Peterson.
Thank you for sharing Amanda:D
Glad to see you're healthy again Jordan, I never doubted once that you would be able to get back on track. Because that is the kind of person that you are, there was a time in my life when I was also in a very bad place, but you have also helped me get through that. I have improved tremendously as a result of reading your book as well as watching your videos. In my personal opinion, you are one of the greatest modern minds we have. Thanks so much.
completely agree 💯
Such a deep conversation. Sometimes it's over my head, but I still love to listen to Mr. Peterson talk.
so does Jordan Peterson.
Dr. ;)
@@Reppucci24 lame
I could listen to you two talk for weeks straight. Two amazing minds, though differently wired along a few lines, spark thought within those of us who listen. That, unfortunately, is not as regular as some might like to think. Thank you both, gentlemen.
They both killed it this episode. They have so much in common to talk about, the arguing was getting old
Sam seems to be not willing to step out of his "the analyst"/ "detachment" mode.
What is this mode? While in this mode, it shows us that we can experience/ spend time in the realization that we as spiritual beings can be very separated from our embodiment/ action-realm, while in that mode.
The analyst mode is something that deep meditation tends to introduce to a person (personal experience). It is a great "perception tool" in "the toolset".
But being in that mode is not where most of Sam's/ ours "daily embodied actions" take place. It's not where our social life/ organization of our society takes place. It's not where our experience with "material reality" takes place.
What I mean is, the analyst mode is not dealing with the problems of how to act in this world. That mode is pure perception. It is inherently without agency, inherently without the motivation to act.
Jordan is talking about how to determine how to make ever-better embodied actions. Sam seems to not even be interested in diving into the process of how humans did/ do that, in practice. Is it just me?
@@elektrotehnik94 something about the true mark of a wise man is not making the journey to enlightenment, but rather making the journey back
@@elektrotehnik94 Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but I believe you've committed an error in delineating Sam's position, and in understanding the "selflessness" (or "anatta") that he is describing, by characterizing it as "actionless" detachment, and disassociated from ethical action in the world; I've also heard it described as a "refusal to face the danger of actual life". I think in Sam's view, these "dangers of everyday social life" are precisely the "I" (the wrongheaded way in which people identify themselves, and the suffering which is almost entirely reducible to it), and that meditation is therefore precisely to face the dangers of everyday life- which on a more fundamental level are not sociological, but phenomenological: errors in how human beings interpret perception, which lead to suffering & unethical behavior.
I think also, an advanced meditator and those familiar know that a "selfless" person- in Harris' sense- is almost always in fact a person of tremendous energy and activity (Buddhism actually has strong criticisms of the kind of "becoming like a stone, sitting inactively" that I think you're describing), not just a person who perceives without agency. Think of your phrase, "embodied action", and think of what Sam is describing, how most people erroneously identify themselves AS thought which HAS a body. Sam is describing actually becoming MORE embodied. Harris is suggesting that agency is actually IMPEDED or even illusory in the mode that 99.9 people live their lives; sitting and meditating actually reveals a power for real agency.
Lastly, I think the idea that meditation/mindful awareness is akin to "a mode of pure perception without agency" is... I think it comes from the erroneous and hyper-rationalist view that we somehow THINK our way into action, which thence constitutes agency: I think this is a common-sensical view which is quite at odds with the reality of how things work; what Harris is describing is much more akin to SKILL in action, not actionlessness.
@@julianmarx2002 Jesus Christ dude, you could have summed it up in a phrase. Philosophers!
@@empyrionin I happen to enjoy words, so no thanks. But the guy I replied to posted a long piece, so its only natural that I would in response to it.
I love you and Sam together. Your discussions sound like my internal dialogue on a typical sleepless night.
Haha, so much this!
I just came here to comment this
My thoughts too haha
I appreciate this discussion, and for me I think this is the conversation that sealed the deal that Sam Harris ultimately won the war throughout these two's series of arguments.
With Sam Harris' eastern influences and his intellectual take on them, this is as close as it gets to a discussion between Jordan B. Peterson and Alan Watts - something that would have probably blown our minds beyond comprehension.
@@NandortheRelentless yeah, Watts has his charm but he's not as deep as people think
Alan Watts was far more spiritual than intellectual. He was very deep, but the spiritual is much harder to pin down and articulate in a matter of fact way. It's not really possible to put something of spiritual substance into words and be precise. Words form thoughts, and the spiritual is more closely related to feelings than thoughts. You have to read someone a poem or paint them a picture and have what you are trying to convey brush past them and hope that they notice. That's the closest you can get. It can't be delivered directly. That's why we can talk about it for eternity and never pin it down. The moment you think a thought about it you take it out of it's nature and it's gone. That's why it's so elusive.
@@NandortheRelentless Yes. Watts was more stream of consciousness in the way he communicated ideas imo. He could be very entertaining but these two are much more tangible when bringing theory into real world experience...they're more logic and science based.
@@paule.2687 Neither is Harris.
@@NandortheRelentless well I mean his whole thing was bringing Zen teachings to a western audience. To those unfamiliar with Eastern philosophy his talks were often paradigm shifting.
However once you get past his poetic eloquence you realize that most of what he's saying is to be mindful, unattached, and that the yin needs the yang.
Not bad messages by any means, but nowadays they could come off as cliche.
I enjoyed this conversation. Sam's approach to problem solving compliments Jordan's seeking orientation. I've subscribed to Sam's channel in relation to this video. Keep up the excellent efforts gentlemen.
Douglas, you put it well when saying that these two complement each other. It's hard to pick one side and disregard the other.
Really wonderful to see these two grow with their relationship. I love this conversation/podcast, since it is quite relatable in how I myself, have been attempting to reconcile (as a Christian) how exactly the Bible's scriptures were meant to be interpreted.
Same here Brent. God bless you on your journey of understanding and reconciliation : ]
The Bible might be a combination of stories and history, but most of all, there is a solution to our broken world, to be reconciled back to God through His Son. 1/3rd of the Bible is prophetic, Daniel 9:24-27 says that after the command to rebuild Jerusalem 457BC the Messiah would come, and he came right on time on the 69th week of prophetic years (7x69) riding on a colt with waving palm leaves in 26/27AD. Believe:)
The Biblical stories have so many potential meanings, paradoxes, contradictions.....I'd not get carried away with developing a coherent leitmotif. We live in a radically different cosmology now post Galileo, Darwin, DNA, Einstein, Pavlov et al, so any reconciliation will need to be proximal to these realities.
@@blombidobadila8084 not really. The Bible references DNA on multiple levels, in more than one place. Gotta go to work maybe I'll be back to explain but search features are your friend.
@@Artcore103 Does it, intriguing, yet improbable. DNA seemingly removes the notion us homo sapiens are other than marginally more advanced chimps, or explains why our behaviour is almost exactly the same.