I think it falls into the purview of the PDGA because if the PDGA is creating a certification process for disc mold and name approval, then it should fall on them to check things like trademarks and copyrights before they issue any approvals. At this point this issue is just between the two manufacturers, but the PDGA should be checking these things if they are going to have an official certification process.
@@SpencerDunnison Absolutely not. It's incumbent upon a manufacturer to make sure they're in the clear on trademarks before submitting a disc for approval. That's what the trademark office is for, not the PDGA.
I agree, however PDGA needs to have discs in every plastic the mold is made in tested as a disc, I swear early runs of Innova Destroyer in Champion were so stiff the disc was not legal, same of other discs plastic.
They are the bottom line In everything holding them responsible they created this problem by not doing their jobs they just want people's money like so clubs disgusting 😞
@@DiscAbledGolfer They are not a legal body and are neither experts on nor have any regulatory power over trademarks. They approve or deny for play discs that are submitted, nothing more.
Why. They have a vision for the brand and they did their due diligence and secured the name. They most likely have marketing already done based on the disc.
It's really not. Trademarking a common word as a product name in a specific market space is common IP practice. This isn't nearly as BS as, say, Apple trademarking a rectangular form factor for smartphones.
I just want to take a moment to say thank you for constantly featuring me and giving me credit! I love the work you do; I don’t think I’ve missed a single video from you guys-they’re always worth a watch!
I don't think there's a Fulcrum on the market either ... but that's just a quick search of existing, not anything that might be trademarked in pre-production.
The PDGA does not police disc names. I can see a judge throwing this out of court when it's pointed out that at least 4 companies have had discs named Eagle, and at least three have discs named Griffin.
2:23 it’s worth noting you are incorrect. The TM had been approved, it has NOT been registered. There is a period after approval where they open it up for dispute. This is the stage we are in.
MVP clearly put in the trademark for the midrange in Dec. 2023, 5 months earlier than Essential Discs. Right now it is only a matter of pride for Essential Discs to keep putting up a fight. I think they need to come to an agreement. PDGA, in my opinion, needs to look into trademark filings, prior to approving discs, just to avoid this in the future. But that's just me.
PDGA probably doesn't have the resources to be responsible for checking that for every manufacturer who submits a mold for approval. Ideally, PDGA probably should require the manufacturers to attach their own trademark search on the name they want showing it's unclaimed, or ideally their own trademark filing for the name, with their filings for PDGA approval.
On this ‘Balance’ Simon said the first print run didn’t even do what he wanted out of it. The name should be the least of their worries. He said if the disc is printed even microns of difference then the disc flys with different stabilities. Ok, fine.. you can’t print disc with reliable flight characteristics. This might be a lucky happenstance, they just aren’t approaching it correctly. Simon and MVP could launch the first line of disc that looks and feels the exact same in the hand but flys differently. Example - I could buy 2 ‘Balance’ Disc but have one fly Overstable, and the other fly understable. The genius of this is a player would get used to the way a disc feels in hand (rim size, material, etc) and the way a disc releases from the hand. This would actually be more of a pro level disc. It would increase accuracy through elimination of physical disc variation. The key to the whole process is flight numbers that have been verified. Every print run would need to be tested indoors by flight machine. If a player can read the numbers on a disc and know exactly how it will fly then they can fill their bag with a bunch of the same disc (also a huge benefit to the manufacturer). Disc will need to have a premium price because of additional cost in flight testing but that’s why it’s ‘PRO’. I’d much rather spend a little bit of extra money and get a disc that I know exactly the way it’s gonna fly than waste my money buying a disk that I’ve been told flys one way only to find out it’s the opposite when I get to course. In fact ‘Balance’ is the perfect name for a disc that flys with a bunch of different stabilities.
You just described how everyone built their bags for decades before the new era where people bag multiple different molds. It’s used to be a bag full of Rocs, TeeBirds and Destroyers of all different stabilities.
As much as I think the PDGA is in desperate need of some major major realignment to come down to earth, which is why I haven't renewed my membership in 8 years because of it, as a TM attorney of over 20 years, no blame whatsoever should be placed on them in this instance. This is a clear case under the law. Let the two fight it out, but the reality is, who cares what you call a disc? Call it Simon #13, doesn't matter. We all go for the one with the right color to get to the basket without hitting water and getting lost. Don't get me started on the obscene DM labeling after such a straightforward system of PD, DD, FD, etc. Prodigy is even worse. I have some minty first run doom snake things in my collection that I should probably flip. The chips will fly, and so will these two discs. I hope Simon gets some European Insight and lets the whole thing go and calls it the ballerina. This is just stupid off-season limp flexing. I call things out for what they do wrong, but in this case the PDGA is not even a player, nor should be. Blame it on the DGPT, or Anthon, or Nikko. It's that level of absurdity. Think outside the disc as this happens all the time in the beer world. So many breweries, so many "creative names". There are easy ways to solve this, and the USPTO is not the way. Because I can tell you that both discs will fly. And they will be just like a thousand other midrange discs that we already have access to and throw. It's a pathetic money grab. Just like most things disc gold these days. Again, we throw frisbees. TM. And wgaf about CBS? Or is that a new Control Balance Stable? Unreal.
I could be very wrong, but how can the fact that you bave a pending trademark on the word 'Balance' be cover? For one, it looks like most of the approved trademarks are for lines of discs or technology, not disc mold names. Am I as a disc manufacturer supposed to see that and say to myself "Oh, must be a disc mold name, better not use that ever."? Second, I agree this isn't up to the PDGA to adjudicate. They dont have someone on payroll that has time to look through all legal filings for every company to see if that name was used or is intended to be used. Sifting through their own records seems like something they should do, and they may have done that and approved both.
Court of public opinion does mean crap. We are a nation of laws. Trademarks and copyrights are legally binding. The pdga is not a legally governing body.
I am curious. Why were there so many negative comments about CBS taking on some coverage of disc golf? Doesn't anyone want to see this sport grow? I find it funny how when it suits, people will talk/complain about growing the sport. Then, when a major station wants to air coverage, people switch to "gatekeeping mode" and make negative comments. I for one find it to be awesome. As an example: During the pandemic CBS Sports and FOX Sports started airing E-Sports like Rocket League. That game blew up and tournaments found a large uptick in viewership, attendance, and a big increase with payouts in tournaments. Why would anyone not want to increase exposure of this sport?
The critique is that this same format has been on CBS for the past 4 years and there hasn’t been any sort of uptick related to that coverage. We’re suggesting using that money in a different way since the sport has tried this method with what appears to be little success. However, we are only going with the information we’ve been told
Do people forget paul and discraft went through this with the Zeus when it was named Kong. The name Kong was already owned by a company not even related to disc golf.
Im wondering what simon thinks about the whole disc naming situation. I feel like he'd be the voice of reason in the whole thing. I don't know the man, but he strikes me as a pretty cool human.
The iceberg channel showed txts from Simon. It was the standard mvp answer. I think this helps Essential discs. I had never heard of them before this week.
@ryanmussell739 thank you, I'll look into it. He probably don't have a choice but to stick to the company line, unfortunately. I feel like he spoke up in the private though. That's all I'm attempting to say, lol
one thing that wasnt really answered... is the mold similar? or is it just the same name. if its the same name and a similar mold, thats one thing, but if the mold is totally different I think thats a whole different discussion
That's ... how every smart business does it? If you waited until launch day, some competitor could try to file on the same name just to screw you over, and it comes down to whose attorneys are faster.
Jeez. This name bickering is absurd. Just have both of them use the name. No one is going to confuse the two discs. If someone does, just say MVP Balance or Essentials Balance. Act like adults.
With the money spent on CBS they could buy me enough disc to where I could throw 500'+ I know just a few disc is all it'll take maybe a few different balances will help
I have to be that guy, sorry. ALL claims of "prototype" on a golf disc are lies, plain and simple. A prototype is defined as the *single* item upon which all production items are based. There can never be more than one. And so, there is only one prototype of each disc - and every single one of them belong to the PDGA, and were used for disc certification purposes. So, next time anyone claims to have a "prototype" disc, you are free to simply laugh at the lame marketing strategy of the company involved. I have eight pre-production, or pre-prototype discs in my collection - all supplied nicely by my good buddy Simon at RPM. Thanks, guys! :)
That's the way I take it from the patent website. But they may have to decide are they going to approve it. The patent office says if a patent is pending, that's a warning to the public not to use this name on your products, because if we approve it, you are subject to any and all legal action.
Subscribed. Love your work! It has been a while but there have always been lawsuits in discgolf. I think Lightning Discs and Innova had at least 20 of them...and if I had to guess, I think MVP have the rights. Doubt the PDGA can even help here. Only thing what would help them(pdga) is to have a list what name is pending for approval but that is for next time. Disc golf on a national channel? Yes please! Been on tv myself a few times talking about discgolf so I am all for it! The more promotion the better!!
Trademarks in the US has and will always be first to use in commerce, and not first to file. The disc would probably end up being renamed if it was brought to a legal court.
MVP needs to act like an adult and choose a different name for the disc.... it really is that simple. if there is ALREADY a disc that has that name AND has already went through pdga approval, then that means the name is off limits. period. do the right thing and just come up with a different name. its not that big of a deal. trying to "steal" the name of the disc away from a competitor company that has already established it is a extremely petty and childish move..... shame on MVP for this.
MVP filed the name long before ED submitted their disc for approval. There's no stealing here, just unfortunate timing. ED's refusal to admit their lack of due diligence is the childish bit.
Lol It’s a dumb name anyway!!! It’s not a super unique word has many meanings … but I wouldn’t support the smaller company here as it’s just a money attention grab
No it doesn't fall on the PDGA. They aren't there to solve name disputes or copyright issues.
I think it falls into the purview of the PDGA because if the PDGA is creating a certification process for disc mold and name approval, then it should fall on them to check things like trademarks and copyrights before they issue any approvals. At this point this issue is just between the two manufacturers, but the PDGA should be checking these things if they are going to have an official certification process.
@@SpencerDunnison Absolutely not. It's incumbent upon a manufacturer to make sure they're in the clear on trademarks before submitting a disc for approval. That's what the trademark office is for, not the PDGA.
I agree, however PDGA needs to have discs in every plastic the mold is made in tested as a disc, I swear early runs of Innova Destroyer in Champion were so stiff the disc was not legal, same of other discs plastic.
They are the bottom line In everything holding them responsible they created this problem by not doing their jobs they just want people's money like so clubs disgusting 😞
@@DiscAbledGolfer They are not a legal body and are neither experts on nor have any regulatory power over trademarks. They approve or deny for play discs that are submitted, nothing more.
It's absurd that any company would try to trademark the word "Balance".
Why. They have a vision for the brand and they did their due diligence and secured the name. They most likely have marketing already done based on the disc.
Nike trademarked "Air". Companies trademark common words every day, but they can only enforce the trademarks in their industry.
It's really not. Trademarking a common word as a product name in a specific market space is common IP practice.
This isn't nearly as BS as, say, Apple trademarking a rectangular form factor for smartphones.
I just want to take a moment to say thank you for constantly featuring me and giving me credit! I love the work you do; I don’t think I’ve missed a single video from you guys-they’re always worth a watch!
We appreciate the hard work you do too. Makes our job much easier when we know Disc Golf Fanatic has all the information ready to go!!
One company could work on a different spelling like latitude 64 and Discraft did with Zombie and Zombee. Balance and Balanze?
Just call the disc The Equilibrium. You’re welcome.
I don't think there's a Fulcrum on the market either ... but that's just a quick search of existing, not anything that might be trademarked in pre-production.
The PDGA does not police disc names. I can see a judge throwing this out of court when it's pointed out that at least 4 companies have had discs named Eagle, and at least three have discs named Griffin.
only one company has a disc called the Eagle and same with the Griffin. you need to pay closer attention to the details....
Can you list all those discs?
All manufacturers don't need to make a shift, just the one who don't do their due diligence on trademarks before submitting a disc.
2:23 it’s worth noting you are incorrect. The TM had been approved, it has NOT been registered. There is a period after approval where they open it up for dispute. This is the stage we are in.
MVP clearly put in the trademark for the midrange in Dec. 2023, 5 months earlier than Essential Discs. Right now it is only a matter of pride for Essential Discs to keep putting up a fight. I think they need to come to an agreement. PDGA, in my opinion, needs to look into trademark filings, prior to approving discs, just to avoid this in the future. But that's just me.
PDGA probably doesn't have the resources to be responsible for checking that for every manufacturer who submits a mold for approval.
Ideally, PDGA probably should require the manufacturers to attach their own trademark search on the name they want showing it's unclaimed, or ideally their own trademark filing for the name, with their filings for PDGA approval.
The PDGA is the guilty party for approval of a disc with the same name as a trade make the PDGA accountable
On this ‘Balance’ Simon said the first print run didn’t even do what he wanted out of it. The name should be the least of their worries. He said if the disc is printed even microns of difference then the disc flys with different stabilities. Ok, fine.. you can’t print disc with reliable flight characteristics. This might be a lucky happenstance, they just aren’t approaching it correctly.
Simon and MVP could launch the first line of disc that looks and feels the exact same in the hand but flys differently. Example - I could buy 2 ‘Balance’ Disc but have one fly Overstable, and the other fly understable. The genius of this is a player would get used to the way a disc feels in hand (rim size, material, etc) and the way a disc releases from the hand. This would actually be more of a pro level disc. It would increase accuracy through elimination of physical disc variation.
The key to the whole process is flight numbers that have been verified. Every print run would need to be tested indoors by flight machine. If a player can read the numbers on a disc and know exactly how it will fly then they can fill their bag with a bunch of the same disc (also a huge benefit to the manufacturer). Disc will need to have a premium price because of additional cost in flight testing but that’s why it’s ‘PRO’. I’d much rather spend a little bit of extra money and get a disc that I know exactly the way it’s gonna fly than waste my money buying a disk that I’ve been told flys one way only to find out it’s the opposite when I get to course.
In fact ‘Balance’ is the perfect name for a disc that flys with a bunch of different stabilities.
You just described how everyone built their bags for decades before the new era where people bag multiple different molds.
It’s used to be a bag full of Rocs, TeeBirds and Destroyers of all different stabilities.
As much as I think the PDGA is in desperate need of some major major realignment to come down to earth, which is why I haven't renewed my membership in 8 years because of it, as a TM attorney of over 20 years, no blame whatsoever should be placed on them in this instance. This is a clear case under the law. Let the two fight it out, but the reality is, who cares what you call a disc? Call it Simon #13, doesn't matter. We all go for the one with the right color to get to the basket without hitting water and getting lost. Don't get me started on the obscene DM labeling after such a straightforward system of PD, DD, FD, etc. Prodigy is even worse. I have some minty first run doom snake things in my collection that I should probably flip. The chips will fly, and so will these two discs. I hope Simon gets some European Insight and lets the whole thing go and calls it the ballerina. This is just stupid off-season limp flexing. I call things out for what they do wrong, but in this case the PDGA is not even a player, nor should be. Blame it on the DGPT, or Anthon, or Nikko. It's that level of absurdity. Think outside the disc as this happens all the time in the beer world. So many breweries, so many "creative names". There are easy ways to solve this, and the USPTO is not the way. Because I can tell you that both discs will fly. And they will be just like a thousand other midrange discs that we already have access to and throw. It's a pathetic money grab. Just like most things disc gold these days. Again, we throw frisbees. TM. And wgaf about CBS? Or is that a new Control Balance Stable? Unreal.
Woot first! Love the content, keep it up!
All hail King Nerd!!! 🤴
Your babysitter must be so proud
I could be very wrong, but how can the fact that you bave a pending trademark on the word 'Balance' be cover? For one, it looks like most of the approved trademarks are for lines of discs or technology, not disc mold names. Am I as a disc manufacturer supposed to see that and say to myself "Oh, must be a disc mold name, better not use that ever."? Second, I agree this isn't up to the PDGA to adjudicate. They dont have someone on payroll that has time to look through all legal filings for every company to see if that name was used or is intended to be used. Sifting through their own records seems like something they should do, and they may have done that and approved both.
The PDGA could just have the company sign a form that they did a trademark research and that there is no pending trademark for the name
As soon as MVP uses the name, and finalizes the trademark, they then get the protection they would of a normal trademark, and it happens retroactively
Court of public opinion does mean crap. We are a nation of laws. Trademarks and copyrights are legally binding. The pdga is not a legally governing body.
I am curious. Why were there so many negative comments about CBS taking on some coverage of disc golf? Doesn't anyone want to see this sport grow? I find it funny how when it suits, people will talk/complain about growing the sport. Then, when a major station wants to air coverage, people switch to "gatekeeping mode" and make negative comments. I for one find it to be awesome. As an example: During the pandemic CBS Sports and FOX Sports started airing E-Sports like Rocket League. That game blew up and tournaments found a large uptick in viewership, attendance, and a big increase with payouts in tournaments. Why would anyone not want to increase exposure of this sport?
The critique is that this same format has been on CBS for the past 4 years and there hasn’t been any sort of uptick related to that coverage. We’re suggesting using that money in a different way since the sport has tried this method with what appears to be little success. However, we are only going with the information we’ve been told
@@thediscgolfworld Thank you for the clarification. I was not aware that CBS had been doing this for 4 years. It kind of make more sense then.
Who tf cares! They're different molds. The name is irrelevant because they're different manufacturers. Just change the name! 🙄
Do people forget paul and discraft went through this with the Zeus when it was named Kong. The name Kong was already owned by a company not even related to disc golf.
The Smarter Every Day video has 1.4 million views and certainly reached more people than CBS. There are many better ways to grow the sport.
Im wondering what simon thinks about the whole disc naming situation. I feel like he'd be the voice of reason in the whole thing. I don't know the man, but he strikes me as a pretty cool human.
The iceberg channel showed txts from Simon.
It was the standard mvp answer.
I think this helps Essential discs.
I had never heard of them before this week.
@ryanmussell739 thank you, I'll look into it. He probably don't have a choice but to stick to the company line, unfortunately. I feel like he spoke up in the private though. That's all I'm attempting to say, lol
one thing that wasnt really answered... is the mold similar? or is it just the same name. if its the same name and a similar mold, thats one thing, but if the mold is totally different I think thats a whole different discussion
I’ll bite. Where do I find the CBS disc golf coverage.
Easy fix- call it the Equilibrium ✌️
I feel like this is drama I don’t even want to hear.
How on earth can you file for a trademark for a product before you start trading that product?
That's ... how every smart business does it?
If you waited until launch day, some competitor could try to file on the same name just to screw you over, and it comes down to whose attorneys are faster.
Just call it Wild Balance and be done with it
"BA-lance" ...... Aka. Bad Ass Lance 😂 problem F-n solved 🤘👽🍀
Jeez. This name bickering is absurd. Just have both of them use the name. No one is going to confuse the two discs. If someone does, just say MVP Balance or Essentials Balance. Act like adults.
Seems like essential discs is just using this as publicity. Not saying thats why they named it the balance but def. Why they wont change it.
is the smaller company made by the MVP brand?
With the money spent on CBS they could buy me enough disc to where I could throw 500'+ I know just a few disc is all it'll take maybe a few different balances will help
Equilibrio
I have to be that guy, sorry. ALL claims of "prototype" on a golf disc are lies, plain and simple.
A prototype is defined as the *single* item upon which all production items are based. There can never be more than one.
And so, there is only one prototype of each disc - and every single one of them belong to the PDGA, and were used for disc certification purposes.
So, next time anyone claims to have a "prototype" disc, you are free to simply laugh at the lame marketing strategy of the company involved.
I have eight pre-production, or pre-prototype discs in my collection - all supplied nicely by my good buddy Simon at RPM. Thanks, guys! :)
Once again the pdga shows us how big of a joke they are as a governing body.
mvp filed for the name first doesnt that makenit theres if they chose to go to court?
That's the way I take it from the patent website. But they may have to decide are they going to approve it. The patent office says if a patent is pending, that's a warning to the public not to use this name on your products, because if we approve it, you are subject to any and all legal action.
Since they don't have the trademark, not necessarily.
Subscribed. Love your work! It has been a while but there have always been lawsuits in discgolf. I think Lightning Discs and Innova had at least 20 of them...and if I had to guess, I think MVP have the rights.
Doubt the PDGA can even help here. Only thing what would help them(pdga) is to have a list what name is pending for approval but that is for next time.
Disc golf on a national channel? Yes please!
Been on tv myself a few times talking about discgolf so I am all for it!
The more promotion the better!!
A question of balance you say? Maybe by Tuesday afternoon they will see the other side of life. Hope someone gets the puns
Trademarks in the US has and will always be first to use in commerce, and not first to file. The disc would probably end up being renamed if it was brought to a legal court.
Just rename it the ‘New Balance’. Legal problem solved!
sunstein
Arghhhhghh 😅
MVP needs to act like an adult and choose a different name for the disc.... it really is that simple. if there is ALREADY a disc that has that name AND has already went through pdga approval, then that means the name is off limits. period. do the right thing and just come up with a different name. its not that big of a deal. trying to "steal" the name of the disc away from a competitor company that has already established it is a extremely petty and childish move..... shame on MVP for this.
MVP filed the name long before ED submitted their disc for approval. There's no stealing here, just unfortunate timing. ED's refusal to admit their lack of due diligence is the childish bit.
PDGA doesn't govern IP over product names. The trademark division of the patent office does.
Poop
Lol
It’s a dumb name anyway!!! It’s not a super unique word has many meanings … but I wouldn’t support the smaller company here as it’s just a money attention grab
Exactly! The Glitch is an awesome name that does help sell a disc but something as generic as balance, move on not worth effort