the idle in fh5 is actually so annoying because its so quiet and all the cars idle so much higher than they're real life counterparts which adds to the frustration of the idle being as quiet as it is
In the Race Off live stream the one blonde lady didn’t even know what a Frunk was until that live stream when one of the other devs was talking about it
FINALLY SOMEONE HAS MENTIONED THE WIERD BEHAVIOUR OF TURBOS STUTTERING AT THE SLIGHTEST TOUCH OF THE THROTTLE, I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO THOUGHT IT WAS A PROBLEM!
i think a thing a lot of people forget is a big reason why features like turbo's being repeated and gearboxes being repeated as well, there are 1K cars planned for this game and i can only imagine the time it would take to change every car in it's own unique way, and adding more stuff like that would make it's already huge storage bigger, so they mostly chose to focus on in game features and adding more cars than just upgrading the realism on the cars we have now.. still though they can still do this and that would be awesome, but that is a good reason why they probably didn't
Hmm.. have we been here before lmao. I sort of agree tho. It’s just funny because everyone used to be so unhappy with the sounds in previous games, and they were so happy with FH5 😂 But I seriously think some things and many many cars have gotten way worse
The part with the anti-lag, it makes sense to always be on since its anti lag and not 2 step or rolling 2 step. 2 step builds boost from a standstill while anti lag keeps the turbo in boost so when you get on throttle the power is instant And for the assetto corsa part, that is not anti lag nor 2 step. its a spark cut
I’m lucky enough to own a Hellcat Challenger IRL and the instant bear change is most likely emulated that way because they most likely had the car in “Track” mode, where the 8 speed gearbox makes almost instant gear changes.
Antilag is a system that allows the turbo to hold its rpm between shifts which is why it pops and bangs contantly and coupled with how turbos work in forza it acts the same way as the stututu noises
As a person who lives in an area where there's all different types of cars with different customizations and engine sounds and exhaust pipes I can confirm that Yuwan Thayakaran is 777% correct with everything he said in this video speaking of which today I saw/heard a Toyota matrix vehicle with a pretty decent sized exhaust pipe on it also can we have a petition for Yuwan Thayakaran to help Playground Games to develop FH6
Okay, I agree one thing - random backfire. Like, you take stock Pagani Huayra and you get backfire... Like what? At last Forza Motorsport did something bit better - backfire animation, sound and not so annoying.
the BMW doesn't even have straight cut gear sounds anymore, the only whining you hear in that video is the supercharger. just saw an almost 3 year old video where someone got a very similar sound to the NFS MW BMW but the gears don't sound like that anymore sadly. the aston martin vulcan amr still has very loud straight cut gears sound though if you keep the stock transmission which is amazing
yeah I was gonna say the same thing, just saw a nearly 3 year old video where someone got a very similar sound to the NFS MW BMW but the gears don't sound like that anymore. the aston martin vulcan amr still has very loud straight cut gears sound though if you keep the stock transmission which is amazing
Idles would be good if Forza added some realistic sounds. The audio you played was a lumpy LS so the corvettes would sound good idling like that. And the turbo spool could use some attention too
Just found your channel and love the video I 💯 agree forza 3 had the best car sounds.. alot of the cars don't sound no where near as visceral as their real life counterparts.. and induction noises really need an update and more variety if it's supercharged or turbocharged I wanna hear it and feel it just like the real thing definitely need more compressor surge/blower noise variation.. I enjoyed the addition of anti lag but would love rolling antilag/2 step and rotaries definitely need more horsepower too but my favourite car atm is the Valkyrie I love the sound but for example 1000 plus horsepower Rbs 2jzs etc sound weak compared to the real cars making that kind of power.. hopefully they listen to the community more for a change..
I am baffled at the fact that cant the Dev go out and look for cars or get a deal to get those cars and record them at its finest quality, or do what Initial D did for the original 1998 show, fun fact the sound that was made for the show was made by the guy who obtain the sounds for Pokemon like the Poke ball and more, the sounds is just so good (Its dated but its genuine) I think forza did the same but didn't do it to its finest
I recently tried making some shifting sounds and realistic turbo spooling and flutter sounds in Scratch 3.0. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a pretty basic visual programming language designed for kids. It took me about 15 minutes to code sine wave based shifting sounds, turbo spooling with a simple boost simulation using linear interpolation and flutter sounds with the pitch based on the boost you had before releasing the throttle. So if I am able to do it on my own in 15 minutes, how is a multi billion dollar company incapable of doing it 6 years after the development of the game started? It makes no sense to me.
i have a solution for the fading gear: set your setting to manual with clutch but don't use the clutch. and if you shift you need to press the gas pedal just a little bit and it will fade!
I dont know if you know this, you could buy a hellcat with a regular manual transmission apparently. So the sound is right for that, but the interior with the paddle shifters is not lol
is that how anti lag works in real life? tuners tune their car and then rev up to the redline and flames come outta the exhaust like machine guns. also i think you were using manual gearbox in the first point cuz choosing automatic gearbox from settings make the needle rev up to the redline and shift
1:37 so I know why they screwed up the transmission. It’s like someone is shifting it with a stick. Not actually taking into consideration each cars gearbox
I honestly wish they'd just go back to their old way of producing cars sounds. This new system of finding specific cars and recording them just takes WAY too long for them to properly make every car sound good. I get what they were going for with the attention to detail on the sounds but majority of the cars they use in those recording sessions sound like trash anyways so they aren't even getting anywhere with that. The old way of doing car audio literally had some of the best car sounds in the series so I think it'd be best if they reverted back to that.
also, the sound of straight cut gears should NOT be in tune with the sound of the engine itself... when you change gears the gear ratio changes so the “pitch ratio” should obviously change as well
Well for one thing, the turbos are different, different sound and different blow off valve. If you don't go buck wild building a car with only Race Parts, you can actually have a better car if you DON'T use race parts. My main thing with Forza being wrong in so many ways is they try to balance the cars due to the fact that it is a game and most game developers try to keep the game balanced.
As for your point on Gearbox It's false. The demon, lambo and PDK shifting time are pretty accurate. Because gearbox in Forza doesn't slip, therefore the sensation of Torque Converter gearbox doesn't show here. PDK, just position yourself on the hood cam and judge again. Yes, they don't feel the brutal part of the lambo but this is still virtual. The oscillation between shifts are good enough for me. Also, not all automatic shift quick in this game. Just try the SL65. The only car where the shift is not accurate is the LFA, which you didn't show. In real life, that car shifts very slow. In Forza however, it shifts like a Mercedes MCT.
Firing the Current (Lazy and Arrogant and Incompetent and Woke!) Sound Team, Hiring the Team that did Motorfest (Best. Car. Sounds. Ever...) , Changing the Audio Middleware to FMod, WWise or REVS, ramping up the Bass (especially on the Idle Chop for the Big Block V8's, some of the Big Block V8 Idle Chops in the Base Heavy Motorfest are *Brutal* ! just as they should be!), adding in some really Awesome Sweetners to the EV's to make them sound less Boring (such as Motorfest Mixing in the Scream of a *Judd V10* ! to the whine of the E-Motors on the ID-R) , getting better mikes such as Shure (Which Codemasters use), stop the "one size fits all" Approach to Turbo and Pops and Anti-Lag and Launch Control and Gearboxes (as you said) and make them more Authentic by using Timings and Sounds taken from the *actual Cars themselves* instead of the one setting that some Purple Haired Potted Succulent thinks "will do" for all the Games cars, Using a Dyno Bench to get under Bonnet Sounds (Such as Turbo Spool/Blowoff Rates and Sounds, Burbles, Transmission Whine/Clunk and the Engine Hang/Fade due to slow Gearshifts on Auto's, etc ) and the Gear-Shift Timings on all Gears, as well as a Test Track for the Rest and Hiring an Expert Car Finder such as Craig "Fast and Furious" Lieberman to do the "Raw Sound" Sourcing from the *actual Cars* (as well as the 3D Scans so they can all be remodelled correctly! we want a Model of a *French* 500E! Not one of an American 500E!) so there is no more just making the Sounds up from random "Sound Grains" !! and that is just off the top of my head! PS... be Funny if they did add Stop/Start to cars that have it IRL in FH6...
The fact that that gearboxes don't have this oscillation sound, is because gearboxes itself don't oscillate, unlike Forza Motorsport. BeamNG developers have done it better.
I would also like to point out that the limiters of the car are not accurate at all, for example if you bring a lexus lfa to the limiter in fh5 it does not sound at all like the real deal and so on with other cars
The valkyrie v12 has the loudest idle in the game tbh imo. So loud that u can even hear it in the distance when another player is in it
You hear them a mile away at the festival drag strip too. So damn loud even for a game
@@aussiebevo103 they sound like mosquitoes especially when they fly by. I love it 😆
the idle in fh5 is actually so annoying because its so quiet and all the cars idle so much higher than they're real life counterparts which adds to the frustration of the idle being as quiet as it is
I think the main issue is the Forza devs are really out of touch with real car culture.
In the Race Off live stream the one blonde lady didn’t even know what a Frunk was until that live stream when one of the other devs was talking about it
@@MatthewNelsondbzThat blonde girl knows nothing about cars 💀
Forza is in it for the money at this point, they don't care about the car community anymore
Thats Microsoft
FINALLY SOMEONE HAS MENTIONED THE WIERD BEHAVIOUR OF TURBOS STUTTERING AT THE SLIGHTEST TOUCH OF THE THROTTLE, I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO THOUGHT IT WAS A PROBLEM!
AND THE BACKFIRE HAHAHAHAHAHA. THANK YOU, I NO LONGER FEEL INSANE.
Really really good points. It's funny how the fh5 community is more creative and more proactive than the actual developers of the game.
i think a thing a lot of people forget is a big reason why features like turbo's being repeated and gearboxes being repeated as well, there are 1K cars planned for this game and i can only imagine the time it would take to change every car in it's own unique way, and adding more stuff like that would make it's already huge storage bigger, so they mostly chose to focus on in game features and adding more cars than just upgrading the realism on the cars we have now.. still though they can still do this and that would be awesome, but that is a good reason why they probably didn't
I literally thought i was the only one who has literally all these issues mentioned. I didnt know i needed this video
The Fast X 1970 Charger and Hot Wheels Twin Mill also have really good idle sounds. So does the Countach if you put a sport or race exhaust on it.
FH3 was the last game that had good car sounds
interesting opinion
I agree, fm6 and fh3 were the last Forzas to have good sounds
@@MayconLuizDznTM don’t forget fm7
I love the gt350 sound 🤤🤤
In the next forza game we need better sounding cars
Hmm.. have we been here before lmao. I sort of agree tho. It’s just funny because everyone used to be so unhappy with the sounds in previous games, and they were so happy with FH5 😂
But I seriously think some things and many many cars have gotten way worse
The hoonigan gymkhana 10 focus has an amazing idle
The part with the anti-lag, it makes sense to always be on since its anti lag and not 2 step or rolling 2 step.
2 step builds boost from a standstill while anti lag keeps the turbo in boost so when you get on throttle the power is instant
And for the assetto corsa part, that is not anti lag nor 2 step. its a spark cut
6:44 the exhaust 😭
I honestly they should fix the turbo sound in FH5 actually
I agree, Crew Motorfest gives a fine example of a high PSI aftermarket turbo, for factory turbos they sound ok in FH
@@resi- bro they just rise the sound of the turbo for people that just want to hear it, and its just boring...
Me when I can't write a proper sentence
@@FiatUno2003 why you but it’s yes, or something else or other where it does
3:31 "They seem to have an identity crisis in fh because they spool up instantly -oh an XP board!" 😂😂😂😂
ADHD moments
C63 black series in FH3 has beautiful burbles
Who remembers the Hondas and acuras sounds in Forza horizon 3❤
Vtec crossover was so clean
I like that with some cars, theres no backfire at all, experienced that with SF90 and the new BRZ
I’m lucky enough to own a Hellcat Challenger IRL and the instant bear change is most likely emulated that way because they most likely had the car in “Track” mode, where the 8 speed gearbox makes almost instant gear changes.
I agree to all of these I hope they will try and improve most of these in the current game or even the new forza.
DiRT Rally 2 has some of the best sounds out there! The details are amazing!
5:17 that’s actually how it works on a lot of cars irl
true but for the RS7 I did mention how the car in real life backfires as soon as you let go of the accelerator
The pops sound like hit markers
Antilag is a system that allows the turbo to hold its rpm between shifts which is why it pops and bangs contantly and coupled with how turbos work in forza it acts the same way as the stututu noises
Everything you said about antilag is actually “two-step”
The one in gran turismo 7 is way better
I knew something sounded off when I was playing. Thanks for pointing this out. Really sucks coz so many games got these spot on
0:50 most automatic cars shift like manual gearboxes. Massive delays. They can learn a thing or two from BeamNG.
As a person who lives in an area where there's all different types of cars with different customizations and engine sounds and exhaust pipes I can confirm that Yuwan Thayakaran is 777% correct with everything he said in this video speaking of which today I saw/heard a Toyota matrix vehicle with a pretty decent sized exhaust pipe on it also can we have a petition for Yuwan Thayakaran to help Playground Games to develop FH6
Okay, I agree one thing - random backfire. Like, you take stock Pagani Huayra and you get backfire... Like what? At last Forza Motorsport did something bit better - backfire animation, sound and not so annoying.
I agree! Btw, Dom's Charger has a great idle sound
The CT5-V has an insanely choppy idle sound
I especially think that they should fix the idle sound of the countach😭(GT7 did a great job with the sound👏)
whats weird is that fh3 actually had realistic turbo spool sounds, no idea why theyre gone in fh5
It’s like every car does a small brake as it shifts rather than stalling acceleration
Anti-lag in Forza was cool at first but now it just gets boring and annyoing bc its just none stop back fire when its not even like that in irl
the BMW doesn't even have straight cut gear sounds anymore, the only whining you hear in that video is the supercharger. just saw an almost 3 year old video where someone got a very similar sound to the NFS MW BMW but the gears don't sound like that anymore sadly. the aston martin vulcan amr still has very loud straight cut gears sound though if you keep the stock transmission which is amazing
That “straight cut gear” of yours is a super charger. You can hear it change each gear, straight cut gears don’t change sound like that. Nice.
yeah I was gonna say the same thing, just saw a nearly 3 year old video where someone got a very similar sound to the NFS MW BMW but the gears don't sound like that anymore. the aston martin vulcan amr still has very loud straight cut gears sound though if you keep the stock transmission which is amazing
You're playing the game wrong if you use auto shifting.
Idles would be good if Forza added some realistic sounds. The audio you played was a lumpy LS so the corvettes would sound good idling like that. And the turbo spool could use some attention too
Just found your channel and love the video I 💯 agree forza 3 had the best car sounds.. alot of the cars don't sound no where near as visceral as their real life counterparts.. and induction noises really need an update and more variety if it's supercharged or turbocharged I wanna hear it and feel it just like the real thing definitely need more compressor surge/blower noise variation.. I enjoyed the addition of anti lag but would love rolling antilag/2 step and rotaries definitely need more horsepower too but my favourite car atm is the Valkyrie I love the sound but for example 1000 plus horsepower Rbs 2jzs etc sound weak compared to the real cars making that kind of power.. hopefully they listen to the community more for a change..
I am baffled at the fact that cant the Dev go out and look for cars or get a deal to get those cars and record them at its finest quality, or do what Initial D did for the original 1998 show, fun fact the sound that was made for the show was made by the guy who obtain the sounds for Pokemon like the Poke ball and more, the sounds is just so good (Its dated but its genuine) I think forza did the same but didn't do it to its finest
All the hype with the recording the car audios before the game launch just to be slightly above mid😅
@@tishaunarcher6164 ah yes it was built from the ground up
XD
But in fairness at least they tried
What can I say Dirt Rally 2 is a masterpiece and will probably stay the Goat of Rally Sims fpr a long time unless they release something new.
I've found out with launch control on certain cars if you hold the throttle halfway you get a more aggressive limiter
also the g82 M4 has the dsg farts like the rs7 should've gotten as well
Am i the only one who liked the sound of the Mercedes E63S AMG in FH4? I liked the aggressiveness of the sound😅
launch control without anti lag on some cars is basically a soft limiter
Everything sounds like im riding in a tunnel with the windows down 😂😂😂
For the straight cut gears, just switch to interior camera and they will sound better
I’ve thought about all of these issues for years, I thought I was the only one who noticed 😂
The sounds in the game are terrible. Practically all the cars don’t sound like the actual cars and some even sound like they copy and pasted sounds
I recently tried making some shifting sounds and realistic turbo spooling and flutter sounds in Scratch 3.0.
For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a pretty basic visual programming language designed for kids.
It took me about 15 minutes to code sine wave based shifting sounds, turbo spooling with a simple boost simulation using linear interpolation and flutter sounds with the pitch based on the boost you had before releasing the throttle. So if I am able to do it on my own in 15 minutes, how is a multi billion dollar company incapable of doing it 6 years after the development of the game started? It makes no sense to me.
We neeed dsg farts bro
We have it for the mk8 manual golf r 😂. We got them but at what costs. Makes no sense 😂
turbo IRL be like=sutututu
turbo in forza=fuuuu
You can also hear the turbo stututu when you go from reverse gear to the first gear...
This guy would love BeamNG.drive😂
Beamng is the goat
turbo problem has been going on for so long I genuinely have no idea how they let that happen or why they haven't fixed it yet its super annoying
i have a solution for the fading gear: set your setting to manual with clutch but don't use the clutch. and if you shift you need to press the gas pedal just a little bit and it will fade!
Can't do that cause manual+clutch requires you to use the clutch or the shift will over rev waay too much
@@jod1653 but if you just give a little trotle it won’t
@@ilikecars_n-lego It still won't shift as smoothly Leading to slower times.
I dont know if you know this, you could buy a hellcat with a regular manual transmission apparently. So the sound is right for that, but the interior with the paddle shifters is not lol
is that how anti lag works in real life? tuners tune their car and then rev up to the redline and flames come outta the exhaust like machine guns.
also i think you were using manual gearbox in the first point cuz
choosing automatic gearbox from settings make the needle rev up to the redline and shift
A pdk is a dual clutch btw
1:53 blue balling us frrr
1:37 so I know why they screwed up the transmission. It’s like someone is shifting it with a stick. Not actually taking into consideration each cars gearbox
😅I don't even think there's a way to fix the car sounds... unless the devs get involved
Yep this video was like a guide for the devs
Which they won't, because they are Wokeists, not Car Enthusiasts!
I honestly wish they'd just go back to their old way of producing cars sounds. This new system of finding specific cars and recording them just takes WAY too long for them to properly make every car sound good. I get what they were going for with the attention to detail on the sounds but majority of the cars they use in those recording sessions sound like trash anyways so they aren't even getting anywhere with that. The old way of doing car audio literally had some of the best car sounds in the series so I think it'd be best if they reverted back to that.
@@simeonyves5940 one look at them and you could tell they could give af about cars
@@popisolation Too Right unfortunately.
also, the sound of straight cut gears should NOT be in tune with the sound of the engine itself... when you change gears the gear ratio changes so the “pitch ratio” should obviously change as well
So sad a car game can’t even get the basic sounds of a car down 🤦🏽♂️
Go to options.. audio.. put effect lowest and the rest keep it at max.
The turbo noise pisses me off so much anytime I can use a supercharger I do
Anti lag is annoying in horizon 5
In the beginning it was good but it got old fast
If I heard a chop for v8s in forza I'd do nothing but idle
Every Forza actually has launch control, even the older ones. Switch to manual with a clutch; hold A and full throttle, then release.
I use different settings what does A do for you?
@@iamlilbll Handbrake
@@Mob902. You should try that in your own manual car. Works like a charm!
Brooo just admit that you ran outta ideas 😭
I've literally admitted that on Twitter already 😂 The racing game community's at a dead end, every UA-camr's lost on what content to be making lmao
@@YuwanThayakaranshiiiii not BlackPanthaa
@@weluvfruity479or ar12
if u get to the high hp cars with v8s you do here the chop. but thats 600hp plus, which is pretty realistic
But old school V8s usually chop when stock at idle
most of the cars in fh5 just sound the same tbh
Your knowlage of antilag, pops, and launchcontroll is the problem
Bro driving in automatic talking about the gears change too quickly 💀
It changes gears instantly because 1 you didn't tune them and 2 you're using automatic
True video
Well for one thing, the turbos are different, different sound and different blow off valve.
If you don't go buck wild building a car with only Race Parts, you can actually have a better car if you DON'T use race parts.
My main thing with Forza being wrong in so many ways is they try to balance the cars due to the fact that it is a game and most game developers try to keep the game balanced.
NFS heat has the best turbo sounds.
And flames 100%
And idling lol 😂
@@Carsforlife_ nope both goes to gran turismo 7 japanese games are notorious for nice details
@@olavofernandes7286 hoover sounds tho
I’m pretty sure that everyone knows that turn 10 doesn’t give a flying fuck at this point lmao
Yup😂😂
As for your point on Gearbox
It's false.
The demon, lambo and PDK shifting time are pretty accurate.
Because gearbox in Forza doesn't slip, therefore the sensation of Torque Converter gearbox doesn't show here.
PDK, just position yourself on the hood cam and judge again.
Yes, they don't feel the brutal part of the lambo but this is still virtual. The oscillation between shifts are good enough for me.
Also, not all automatic shift quick in this game. Just try the SL65.
The only car where the shift is not accurate is the LFA, which you didn't show.
In real life, that car shifts very slow. In Forza however, it shifts like a Mercedes MCT.
“inSTAAAANtly.”
9:23 The reason the car idles quietly is because it’s a older model
Npc and drivitars were out for bro in this video left and right😬also everything up to fh3 were the last good games with good sounding cars honestly
Nice video, but in the title, it states: "8 ways to improve the sound," so how you improve it
Change clutch controls
Firing the Current (Lazy and Arrogant and Incompetent and Woke!) Sound Team, Hiring the Team that did Motorfest (Best. Car. Sounds. Ever...) , Changing the Audio Middleware to FMod, WWise or REVS, ramping up the Bass (especially on the Idle Chop for the Big Block V8's, some of the Big Block V8 Idle Chops in the Base Heavy Motorfest are *Brutal* ! just as they should be!), adding in some really Awesome Sweetners to the EV's to make them sound less Boring (such as Motorfest Mixing in the Scream of a *Judd V10* ! to the whine of the E-Motors on the ID-R) , getting better mikes such as Shure (Which Codemasters use), stop the "one size fits all" Approach to Turbo and Pops and Anti-Lag and Launch Control and Gearboxes (as you said) and make them more Authentic by using Timings and Sounds taken from the *actual Cars themselves* instead of the one setting that some Purple Haired Potted Succulent thinks "will do" for all the Games cars, Using a Dyno Bench to get under Bonnet Sounds (Such as Turbo Spool/Blowoff Rates and Sounds, Burbles, Transmission Whine/Clunk and the Engine Hang/Fade due to slow Gearshifts on Auto's, etc ) and the Gear-Shift Timings on all Gears, as well as a Test Track for the Rest and Hiring an Expert Car Finder such as Craig "Fast and Furious" Lieberman to do the "Raw Sound" Sourcing from the *actual Cars* (as well as the 3D Scans so they can all be remodelled correctly! we want a Model of a *French* 500E! Not one of an American 500E!) so there is no more just making the Sounds up from random "Sound Grains" !! and that is just off the top of my head!
PS... be Funny if they did add Stop/Start to cars that have it IRL in FH6...
Motorsport sounds suck. I've never seen a game mess up a murci that bad.
@@W1nkey_ I know, Motorsport's sounds are unspeakable! What is going on in the sound teams at MS at the moment?
The fact that that gearboxes don't have this oscillation sound, is because gearboxes itself don't oscillate, unlike Forza Motorsport. BeamNG developers have done it better.
This game was deffo not made by car guys
Love forza but I gotta say motorfest and nfs heat are more accurate on car sounds
3:02 I WISH 😭
They do need to fix this the older games sounded better in most of the cases
On the camero, it’s a ss, which means it’s a 427 ci
This is why I drive mwc
Why were you short shifting the challenger saying it "changes gears instantly" Maybe don't short shift it like that?
Dirt 2 is goat of car sounds
Bro said here are 8 ways to FIX car sounds in fh5 in the description but never mentioned it
Forza always give the community’ a half done job lol
I swear they still haven’t fixed the bwm m3 sound and the backfire and anti lag sounds horrible
Yuwan just dis forza horizon 5😂
I would also like to point out that the limiters of the car are not accurate at all, for example if you bring a lexus lfa to the limiter in fh5 it does not sound at all like the real deal and so on with other cars
they just lazy, if u knock ur exhaust pipe off and then antilag, the flames still show😭
here before 1000 views
I wonder how u got the sound mod to work
w
LET US DO ENGINE SWAPS ALSO BETTER BODY KITS