War Emergency Carriers of WWII... Lessons for future procurement?
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
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00:00 War Emergency Carriers of WWII... Lessons for future procurement?
11:00 Part 2
22:00 Part 3
33:00 Part 4
44:00 Part 5
55:00 Finale
You did pretty good improvising, adapting, and overcoming the equipment you have.
The Atlantic class STUFT in 1982 were funtional and converted is an amazingly short time. The design studies on emergency avaition ships in the 1980s were really interesting, and made possible by the Harrier.
Other than cruise liner hulls the Maersk B-class are probably only suitable merchant vessels. They're a good size and they have the required speed.
Thanks Winston Churchill, for a Carrier that has a single catapault. And a series of aircraft carrier class, that just about every Navy worldwide ended up operating.
I wanted to say thank you, your reply about the German navy and German Empire maintaining its alliance with the British and i have been playing with what it would change. Ive been amazed at everything that would have changed even if it started in 1880. And I'm thinking about the land side of a possible war.
I like the look of the Majestic-class carriers, and in the post-war era they gave good service to a number of navies. History demonstrated that the design was very sound and their years of service were much longer than planned by the RN. It took the US Navy until the Midway-class to realize a balanced design ( just my opinion ). I believe the crew compliment issue was as a result of a heavier AA armament than originally designed. The Canadians were successful with their Bonaventure, operating Banshees F3H all-weather fighters w/Sidewinder (AIM-9) missiles. Considering the “merchant ship” building standard. These were some of the best ships the UK ever built.
Just had a thought to help with peace time prep for building wartime carriers and serve for training. At naval air bases build on top of existing runways a carrier flightdeck and hanger with the bulk of the equipment as found on a carrier. Would build two back to back to extend a runway. If war comes you have the ships you have but you have a land training "upper decks of a carrier" that after you train up to max out the existing fleet could be dismantled for parts for your emergency flattops as they are built. The air field below could be used after the partial carrier top is removed to finish the fast builds. You would be stockpiling the needed hardware for carriers while using it as the lower hauls are either built or converted. Would be a lot like the 2 Great Lakes carriers used to train in the US, except as the first waves of pilots finish training the training field is used to rapidly expand the fleet. You could even design a cargo ship to mate with the flattop tops to use in the merchant service until needed to speed the transition more. Much like Germany built a lot of dual purpose stuff prior to war to avoid restrictions this would work the same to prepare with a six month or so change over while not ballooning a fleet too soon.
I think the design of a "war emergency carrier" today depends a lot of the type of war you are fighting and the capabilities you think you need. (Mostly in terms of what type of aircraft you need to operate and how heavily you need to defend the thing.)
I think that, realistically, a CATOBAR carrier isn't something you can convert from something else these days. Those systems are complex and frankly, if a VTOL F-35 isn't "enough gun" to deal with your opponent, you probably aren't going to have time to build much of anything anyway.
However, I think container ships are probably really good candidates for conversion to VTOL carriers. They're common, and the standardization of both the containers and the cargo ship capacities/classes means that you could more or less prefab a "kit" that could be installed on top of whatever ship is handy. Cargo-container sized/shaped modules could include everything from crew bunks to fuel and ammo storage. Although I wouldn't put those next to each other. You could probably also hack a few VLS cells or a CIWS into one if you were feeling clever. (And hopefully avoid another Atlantic Conveyor incident.)
Structurally, cargo containers can bear a lot of weight too - they'll typically be stacked several high, and individual containers can be in excess of 30 tons. So a layer of the "special" containers would probably be able to support a flight deck on top with minimal reinforcement. And in all likelihood, there would be plenty of capacity left to carry additional supplies (food, etc.) for the other ships in the fleet.
The only drawback is the slow speed of the ships themselves. They wouldn't be something you send to put out a fire in a hurry. However, I could see them being useful parked off of a coast working as a helicopter base for S&R or anti-piracy work, or as backup adding extra aviation capability to an LHA/LHD force.
Unfortunately, I think the old saw about WWII-era CVEs applies here too - combustible, vulnerable, and expendable. You could probably build some fire-suppression capability into the containers that are holding fuel or ammunition, or build them in a way that causes explosions to be vented out away from the ship itself. But the ships themselves aren't built to take hits.
A modern war emergency carrier would have to start from one of the cruise ship designs. The RCCL Quantum class are 348 meters long, 49 meters of beam, 22 knots, have long range and there are usually a couple similar ships under construction at any given time. Strip off the superstructure and replace it with a hanger and a simple jump ramp style deck for a dozen F-35s and drones and you have something that could keep the sea lanes clear of the Houthi's while the Nimitz and Ford class go play with the big boys on the other side.
I was going to suggest something similar.
I keep thinking of Container ships.
They are not particularly slow, are long ranged and have plenty of space.
The bridge would need to be cut off and moved to the side.
If you are operating STOL you are fine with the containers still aboard. But I don't know what mechanism you could fit to launch modern jets.
A big drawback is the dent in trade. Better if you use your enemy's ships for conversion.
@@20chocsaday One of the reasons I suggested cruise ships. If there is a world war going on the Funship Cruise industry is really no longer necessary. So conversions to carriers and troop ships would be the order of the day.
@@20chocsaday Container ships are slow, most around 20 knots max. There has been only one fast class in recent times and that's the Maersk Bs.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot Yes, I noticed later that a Member had chosen that type.
It wasn't you was it?
Doing better on placement for the camera but watch talking with your hands, When the hand and arm goes towards the camera or at times when you lean towards it it still makes a distracting readjust. If it was me, I would set a camera on manual and set it once for the presentation but you are better with this framing than before. Another Idea if you use blue/green screen tech is to ad the material digitally instead of a screen behind you. Actually you can do it with just a set part of the display set in. It requires a bit more editing but would solve the wide subject range with a close in camera limiting the depth of field. Also you have started staying on topic more too, still speeding you up but not feeling like sleeping now. As I said before your a huge wealth of information but the presentation is your weak area. You are improving. One history presenter you should check out for ideas without fully adopting his style but incorporating a bit to make it more interesting is The Fat Electrician. His USS William D. Porter, Grand Theft U Boat, Sinking Half Iran's Navy and Barbary Wars videos is in your wheelhouse. I only catch a rare error or two but his story telling style is better than a lot of Hollywood History films. He is a former Medic and is working on his history degree with the bulk of the vids in military history.
He IS funny.
I don't see the War Emergency Carrier as being a pure "Aircraft Carrier", but a mixed plane/drone carrier for one simple reason, the availability of aircraft and aircrew. It takes longer to build an aircraft now than it did in WW2 (a function of the complexity/technology) and crew training also takes years for pilots of the high end Fighters/attack aircraft.
So given aitrcraft stockpiles (or lack thereof) and the crew pipeline, it'll be difficult for most nations to flesh out a full air group, let alone several. Going to a Drone carrier (or more technically, a partial drone carrier) gets more airpower in your hull.
So what does the War Emergency Airwing look like? I see the elements made up as follows:
a) ASW mix of helecopters and drones
b) Fighter - whatever manned aircraft can be scrapped up (bearing in mind losses to pilots and machines while the War Emergency carrier is being built). These may be 2nd line/old types flown by recalled reservists rather than the most modern
c ) Strike. Manned aircraft (possibly the Fighters pulling a duel role) for the high end strike, backed up by Drone "missile trucks" to bulk up the strike/go for the less defended targets
d) Recce: Mainly drone based
e) AEW: If you just want a flying radar (with the carrier handling Command and Control) the Drone based. If you want Airborne C2 then manned.
To your end of video question, I would look to car carriers for potential conversion to escort carriers. These vessels have massive interior volume and a large flat open deck on top this can be reenforced to handle aircraft weights while at the same time carrying military vehicles across the ocean with a convoy. It may be necessary to fit an elevator to allow for aircraft to be maintained in a makeshift hangar made from the top decks of these ships. please note the hangar height will not allow all aircraft to fit aboard but most ASW helicopters should fit. These carriers could also be fitted with a towed array for submarine detection. They could be fitted with a rudimentary Radar system for aircraft traffic control and surveillance. These vessels could also be fitted with a torpedo decoy drogue system and a CIWS system. This in my eyes would be a quicky carrier without sacrificing a lot of merchant cargo deck space which would be hard to come by in the modern world full of container ships. Though we could pull another Atlantic conveyer type conversion, but I would like more capabilities in the modern world. As for drones a semi-trailer with a drone control center would simply drive onboard and plug itself in to ships power and the drones would join the other aircraft on the flight line.
Some car carriers are the right size with cavernous decks however they're far too slow.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot they are the same speed as the convoys they would protect.
Bravo Zulu. I guess my 2020s War Emergency Carrier is probably a JS Kaga to back-up a QE/PoW “proper” Fleet Carrier. It’s already built, good enough for the role, and can probably evolve with the air group for that 20-year transition of technology.
New subscriber. Very glad I found this channel!
NO BAWKSES?! WHAT HAS THIS SHOW DEVOLVED TO?!
Comment to appease the algorithm. Hope your Scandinavian trip is awesome!
Well in the west we would need to build yards first. Or we take the big container ships that would be sitting around when we fight china. Those are so large maybe two angled decks to work parallel could be fitted?
Would you consider the HMS Ocean or ships like her a "Good Enough" Commando Carrier?
Great Video
RE spinning up the production of nuclear power plants, is there any viability for reconditioning plants from decomissioned ships/subs as an expedient?
No, rebuilding casing ect would actually take longer to do and introduces more potential points of failure
Hi Doc i am just wondering what happened to the video about the completing the Admiral class, Lexington class and G3's as aircraft carriers ???? I find that after watching your videos 9.5 times out of 10 i end up with questions and need to re-watch to settle my mind lol just to watch a complete different video that gives me more questions that I again have to re-watch older videos for cross-reference and the last few videos about carrier's i really wanted to re -watch it
I'm sure I've done that video as a patreon request, I just cannot remember the title... but I know I've done it as Cdodders & others provided images which I still use.
@@DrAlexClarke yip that's the one I was thinking of I just can't find it lol
Dr Clarke, if you were in charge of RN naval procurement, and had to buy an off the shelf LHD design from a NATO or NATO aligned power, what design would you choose and why?
The cheapest one... they are all the same or nearly so and any REAL operation requires a dozen of them or dozens of them, not one
Last time I played Victoria 3, you still weren't able to stockpile anything. Which severely undermines the logistical aspect of the military buildup mentioned here.
Im skeptical we have the shipyard capacity and domestic production capability to build anything bigger than a war emergency truck. The US and Europe have done so much to delete heavy industry (and workers) from their economies I dont think much is feasible.
About the most we could hope for would be some sort of container ship converted to carry helicopters for ASW. At a stretch you could carry some STOL fixed wing birds like the AT-802 or Pilatus Porter. Something like that could be useful to perform COIN or aid missions to take the load off of the CVNs.
The bigger stretch would probably be finding the sailors to man such ships. The US military is falling further and further behind its recruiting goals each year. Conscripts are mostly useless as anything more than mine detectors in modern warfare. I have serious doubts as to whether the US government would even be able to muster the votes for a formal war declaration much less institute a draft.
If I need modern war-emergency carriers, I'd go for more Queen Elizabeth class carriers. 😄
Problem with them is they took 8 years to build. By definition if you have 8 years of warning it isn't an emergency.
@@GOPGonzo I suspect we could build them quicker if required, though they're never going to be as quick as a 20,000 ton Colossus class of course.
On Churchill I have thought he's vastly overrated for many years. His career was one of failing upwards and it's hard to point to anything he did well. When it comes to being PM he got the job largely on the basis that he was the only acceptable candidate to all parties in the national unity government. His decision making record was one of thinking he knew best and trying to micromanage whatever took his fancy. What he did best was tolerate De Gaulle even if he didn't like him though even there he failed to impress upon the Americans how important the French leader was.
To be fair, Churchill was an excellent and prolific writer, and had a pretty good sense of humor (even if it was often directed towards bluer shades of comedy.) I could see him being sort of a prototype P.J. O'Rourke, if not in the details.
@@dvpierce248 If only he'd picked that as a career instead of politics.
For the short term (in the next decade or two) we are stuck with the F35, so STOVL and the main (well, at least most glamourous) threat would be hypersonincs AShMs.
While hitting anyone on the head with hard and heavy objects who suggests dismantling existing CV(N)s, I would go for MACs, ie placing helos and "cheap and cheerfull" containerised aviation support and air defence systems (and make sure those comtainers ARE delivered), so placing assets as distributed as possible.
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