Could it be that you see a disproportionate amount of patients with impaired voice from surgery because of your occupation and not because the numbers are off?
Yes, I believe directly said this in the video. If not, I accidentally edited it out. I am 100% biased, that's why this research is so important. We need to have better assessment of the risk.
Blair, I agree that she does see a greater share…which is why she wants to create as large a database of patients that have received this procedure as possible so that future surgery protocols or precautions can be based on a large pool.
It is also likely that those are the kind of people that actually use their voice and range more, and so they are able to notice smaller impairments after the surgery. As oppose to people with no singing/voice experience that won't notice small impairments and won't report those.
I'm still pre-surgeries but I've seen the story of A LOT of trans gals who've gotten the Trachial Shave and later had complications from it, it definetly scares me when I consider my own options.
Me too! Two of my best friends actually have mild long term vocal complications from tracheal shave. I would honestly love to get the procedure because my adams apple makes me a little dysphoric but given what I have personally seen, it's unacceptable. I truly hope this research and movement can make it better for transpeople moving forward. Maybe we can identify a surgeon who has never botched to go to while identifying surgeons with higher rates of vocal collateral damage to avoid. There's honestly so many ways we can pool our information together as a community to find the safest way for people to access this.
I cannot believe how great your voice is. I refuse to get vocal surgery because of the risk and I hate surgeries. Luckily for me my Adam’s apple isn’t visible.
Thank you for this. I had mine 20 years ago this coming February and while helping my physical appearance, I find it extremely difficult to get any volume, proper resonance, and singing in a higher register is nearly impossible. I will be filling out the survey. Thank you. 💜
Voice training actually got my Adams apple high enough that I don't really notice it at all, so thank you for that, but I'm glad you're doing this. This sort of community sourced information is the only way I think trans ppl will actually get accurate medical data. I might look into doing similar studies for progesterone, Spiro, etc,
It sucks to hear how many trans people feel uncomfortable about having one, while I know quite a couple of women who have a visible one and no one would ever focus on that body characteristic. I will be honest, I can not imagine what it feels like for someone to suffer from it, because mine never was visible, but it was a big shock to learn it was actually a thing people tend to look for... A former friend of mine had a different technique performed, she had a piece of muscle tissue layed over her adamsapple so the bump was less visible. (I still have to start vocal therapy by the way, I had figured to do that in 2020 after my orchidectomy and unfortunately the outcome didn't go as planned).
I had a trachea shave in 2016 and, on top of loss of range, have developed chronic pain in my throat that gets worse with use. I've been working with a voice therapist for years and have made no progress. Even on days when I hardly use my voice I'll be in pain. This is not minor stuff. I've not heard anyone else talking about this until now. Thanks for this.
Thanks for bringing awareness to this issue! I see a 5th risk factor in addition to the ones you listed: a voice overuse injury secondary to the acute dysfunction that occurs during the recovery period (swollen, inflamed, dehydrated or in any other way suboptimally healthy vocal cords are more injury-prone). This could be another explanation of how people can become seriously injured despite low "theoritical" risk.
Cis person here. A cis woman I'm close to had to have a thyroidectomy a while back; and the risk of potential vocal complications meant that she had to retire from a lifetime of professional classical singing. While she was fine, it nevertheless does indicate that anything anywhere near the thyroid is going to have some vocal risk implicated. I guess coming from that perspective, it makes sense that a tracheal shave would pose some potential danger to the way the voice works. It's awful that there's little information around re the risks associated with chondrolaryngoplasty, and nobody should have to face a choice between dysphoria and vocal damage. So thank you for making this video, and for the amazing voice work you do on here; I hope that the survey goes as well as it can for you.
I have recently discovered that I am trans, and one of the things that worries me about this is potential damage to the false folds. I'm an aspiring metal vocalist, and I've been learning (or more aptly, trying and failing to learn) how to do false chord/fold screams. False chord screams being the safe method of producing the trademark "Death Growl". As someone with a fairly massive Adam's apple who is realizing the depths of my dysphoria, I understand that I might have to consider a tracheal shave in the future for the sake of my mental health, or at least passability. Every study that I have read about this surgery does not even mention the false folds, or the effects that it could have on the other three non-modal vocal registers.
Thank you, this is such an overlooked complication. My voice was significantly lower & hoarse after my shave and I had no idea what was the issue, except that I had significant problems swallowing. Only after I saw a video on youtube of another girl who went to my surgeon posting a trachea shave adhesion video did I visually understand what the issue was. This time I went to a different surgeon, Dr. Harrison Lee. He operated on me and released the adhesion. I am 8 weeks post op and can raise my voice easily. I think if you are questioning if there is an issue with your throat to first visually check for adhesion, it is easy to spot if you compare to that video. Now there was another complication before my surgery with Lee that I am waiting to see if it reappears. When I would sleep it would feel as if my airway would collapse as if I was having sleep apnea. I never had that issue before the first trachea shave.
Thank you so much for sharing your story! Please participate in the survey. It will help out so much! We are already getting amazing data from it. Im also so glad to hear you've had your adhesion released and have regained vocal function. Thank you!!!
i know this is an old comment so hoping you see it, but i am in the same situation and was wondering if you'd be willing to share any info about the recovery, cost, etc for this? Was it local anesthesia? And did you have a very visible incision from the revision? thanks < 3
@@TransVoiceLessons not sure if the youtuber you were referring to was Samantha Lux but if it wasn't I think her videos on her botched vocal surgery could be useful to you xx
I don't think I experienced a pitch drop in my normal speaking voice post tracheal shave, but I have noticed that I can't access my falsetto. Which.. makes me sad, as someone who enjoys singing. I used to unintentionally honk in my falsetto when laughing/thinking something was cute that became a small expression of personality for me. I found out quickly I couldn't do that anymore, and that something hadn't quite healed right. This honestly has made me quite uneasy about my surgical result. Also, my scar right at the trachea is quite large and obviously noticeable to me and I assume others. I'm not sure if my feedback would be valuable on the survey. I'm not sure if my outcome was behavioral or surgical malpractice.
Please fill out the survey! Every tracheal shave experience is extremely extremely valuable and has a real chance to make it better for others in the future to avoid vocal impairment. I'm really sorry you've experienced some degree of vocal impairment. It's really frustrating to read about and that's exactly what motivates this video and the survey I made. Please help us count every voice -- especially those who have experienced some degree of impairment. Also you may consider reaching out to Dr. James Thomas. He is a very skilled otolaryngologist and has experience fixing complications like this if you decide you want to explore what options for solution are out there.
I have a consultation for this surgery next month so I’m really excited to hear back on the survey results. The vocal risks will definitely be something I bring up during my consultation. Although I’m not gonna lie, it’s a little bit scary hearing what can go wrong 😅 Thank you for using your platform for this, please update us with the results 🖤
I’ve had so many good experiences thus far during my transition that it’s easy to forget about all the risks that come not just with surgery, but basically everything about being myself. As someone who feels like she needs surgeries like bottom surgery, and ffs (which will include trach shave because I’m very insecure about my apple), and I am terrified. I’m afraid of all the complications, I’m afraid of the common to extremely rare ones, and I know it’s not helping my anxiety, but I know it’s a necessary risk to feel 100% comfortable in my body at this point in history.
For sure! Complications are part of it. It's really important to be aware and informed about the risks. The big issue with this surgery is it seems so many individuals weren't informed of the risks or the risks themselves are far understated.
I am so grateful and admire you much! Full transparency, I am a cis SLP who works primarily with gender diverse clients. I have had the immense fortune of working with a few surgeons who recognize the value of the voice and think carefully about the physiology and anatomy. Sadly, the surgeons who are publishing probably aren’t the ones who HAVE the most complications, so it’s underreported. I noticed at least one of the studies you cited had the surgeons doing simultaneous imaging of the VFs…this is a small thing that has incredible potential. I get the impression, too, that many women aren’t getting the education they deserve on aftercare. Informed consent, education, is so critical. It will be an honor to share with my clients!
I fully support the survey and your goals with it. I will try and remember to share this on my own transgender awareness channel as I also need record an episode soon. My voice dysphoria is bad and makes me ill, extremely ill, so much that I was seriously considering this. However, my VA voice therapist said I've been making a lot of progress and as I continue to learn the risks about it, the more I want to avoid it. It is difficult but I don't think it is impossible especially after last night when talking with a Cis gendered woman over the phone for hours and she said I sounded completely female. I still don't have the sound I wish to have consistently and if I don't focus the male voice comes out which is distressing.
Thank you so much! The more individuals we can get to report the experience the more confidence we can have in the data and the more authority we can use the information with to make real positive change. You mentioned your voice dysphoria and how you were considering this surgery -- this surgery isn't a voice surgery. It's a purely cosmetic surgery which reduces the adams apple visibility. :)
this whole thing of surgeons and doctors glossing over risks in gender afforming surgeries is insane. I have a friend who recently just had a vocal surgery that made the space where resonance occurs smaller so that her voice would sound higher pitched and more feminine. She was aware that there'd be swelling and vocal loss for the first few weeks, but she wasn't aware that it would make her voice squeaky and uncomfortable to speak let alone sing, she can't belt and her vocal range is at best 6 notes out of an octave.
As always Zhea you are an inspiration to us all. Thank you so much for All the work you have done! There are so many issues faced everyday by transfolk in every corner of the world and having this resource goes a long way in relieving some of the fears and solitude we all face. I am especially moved by the depth of scope you are reaching for to further impact our world to further pull back the shroud of invisibility that transgender have long been hidden behind. Cheers my friend and Brave On! You are more than necessary and more than Loved!
As a fellow voice professional, thanks for bringing attention to this! We need a longitudinal study with a large sample size. Voice range profiles would be a good metric to look at this, I think.
Filled it out. Had to dig up my old surgery papers to find out the exact date required to fill in the survey. If my voice was affected by the surgery, I don't feel confident I had the tools to assess that back then in July 2016 because I only started working on voice fem in February 2021... but as far as I knew back then, I did not notice a change in my voice from the surgery.
Thank you Z!!! this is so so so informative, I have not had this surgery yet. I have a consult in November hoping to have this done sometime early next year. Again thank you soo much!!!
Imagine my surprise when I watch these videos to improve my voice and it leads me to Miss Lux and her surgeon who turned out to be my surgeon... I had a trache shave a few years back and after watching her video I might have the same issue as her. Thankfully I have a consultation scheduled soon.
i appreciate the information! i hope it helps many people. personally, i will be getting one in the future, as my Adam's apple is insanely large. i'll definitely share my thoughts on the experience, after ive had it.
Thanks so much! I hope we can make some awesome change too. Thanks for planning to add your experience to the survey! Wait ~2 months after to answer. :)
When I started HRT, I knew I would have to get the shave. The apple was huge. Two weeks after starting voice therapy, it was gone. The muscles pulled it up and out of the way!
I know Laura Jane Grace had a trache shave and also has really good documentation of her voice through her singing and interviews both pre-surgery and post. If there are micro-changes even after a normal surgery, she may be a good individual to look at with them.
I'm curious about those studies that say there is no vocal impairment and whether they are looking at a vocally trained voice or a voice with no vocal training. Because the way those vocal tracts move and are used are clearly very different, and it's an important distinction.
The research methodologies in those are so sketchy. In the n=112 study, they asked patients, "are you satisfied with your voice" and then concluded "no voice impairment occurred" literally insane. These are also literally the studies that doctors use to say there is essentially no vocal risk. This survey is gonna put a huge spotlight on it!
Things like handwriting and walking and talking are all significantly affected by big changes in body size and shape, which explains a lot of what we see as feminine elegance, and the other half of us have to relearn those things, sometimes from scratch. It's better to solve an issue of practice with practicing, instead of through a modification that resets the learning curve and potentially hobbles the instrument. After practicing with vocal training videos for both upper vocal range and bridging for a couple months, I can pretty easily switch back and forth between a pretty high mixed upper range and a deep deep movie announcer voice, which I would love to try to teach you how to make, but i'm not entirely sure the internal mechanics of, since I could make the grunting sound it's formed from since I was around 8.
I've had it done like 4 years ago and haven't had any issues yet. Also, just an advice to those who're considering getting it done. Don't get it done only under local anesthesia.... Don't do the same stupid thing as I did. Local anesthesia works only on the soft tissues... EDIT: Did you get your trachea shaved? This part is a bit gory so if you don't have stomach for it don't read further. Nobody prepared me for the pain that comes from the pressure the surgeon had to apply to cut that fuckin' trachea off.. I was questioning my whole stupid life on that operation table and I thought to myself, this is what it feels like having my throat slit. I had a blue blanket over my whole body and as I was shaking from pain and clenching my hands on my stomach, the nurse was holding them. Not sure if that was so I won't move them in a surgeons way or coz she felt so sorry for me. Thinking about it, I'm realising how strong the gender dysporia is and how far we're willing to go to change these bodies we don't feel comfortable with/bodies we often hate for what they are. If I'd have opted for a full anesthesia everything would've been fine.
Glad you haven't had any issues! Nah, given the fact I have seen so many individuals with vocal impairment, I will never get a tracheal shave regardless of the dysphoria. Voice is such an important part of my identity in multiple ways. Unlike average cases, I would notice if even 1% of my voice changed and that would cause me tremendous suffering. Gosh that sounds brutal lol!
@@TransVoiceLessons Thanks. Oh I see, but your trachea is not prominent at all. When I watch your videos u seem like u either had a trachea shave done or u have a totally female neck. In my case it was really prominent and it had to go. When I spoke to the surgeon and complained to him that he could've took more out of that cartilage he said he didn't want to as he didn't wanna cause any damage to my vocal chords. I was a bit upset about it but got used to it. It's much better than it used to be. Ikr... That was one of the biggest mistakes I've ever done in my life.
@@Hikari_Sakurai My resonance is normalized very high. As a result, when I speak my adams apple isn't visible. I actually have quite a visible adams apple otherwise.
@@TransVoiceLessons ooooh I see. so is that part of the voice training? to get used to like push the adams apple up high? I'd have to still think about it.
@@TransVoiceLessons Probably don't remember this... but surgery went great... Lower face, top, and trachea. Most of the swelling is gone and I really couldn't be happier.
I've just joined the surgery queue for undergoing it on the public health care over here. Hopefully, 2~5 years from now, when it's my turn, things will be better. Mine makes me too dysphoric
Submitted the survey! I also shared this video with three trans female related Facebook groups, so hopefully you will get some responses from others that see your request in those groups!
I've had wendler glottoplasty done 2 years ago. My voice got high pitched at the start and then fell back to a lower range, though not as low as it was before. I stuck with a really weird voice that is indefinite, definitely more gay-ish than feminine. I'm completely unable to project my voice in loud places, when I try to speak louder it gets thin, raspy and squeaky, at times it disappears. In these situations it's hard to make myself understood. Sad.
Wendler glottoplasty will typically just change fundamental and source stuff. you could still do a lot for your voice with resonance modification if you haven't really explored or mastered that. Sorry to hear your voice surgery didn't work out as intended.
I've had a consultation with a surgeon (Dr Kathy Rumer, Philadelphia PA USA) for a tracheal shave is, it's the only thing I want besides an orchi, and I already talked about an orchiectomy too. I hope I wouldn't have any long term complications but I don't know, surgery in general kinda scares me a little. But that being said there are always risks. I know she told me about the risks and complications. I know she can be hit or miss, but that was more vaginoplasties from what I have heard, and getting a revision for any procedure is not at all ideal.
I did not do a tracheal shave... but i did another surgery with my voice alteration. I regret my action as I cannot do high pitch now. I cant sing well. And my voice sounds horrible...
@@TransVoiceLessons I need to find back the paper for what is it called. But the surgery involve laser the tear-drop shaped vocal cord (the sharp side) and stitching it to heal. I have no voice for 6 months after the surgery. The vocal cord became narrow after scar tissue is formed.
The same thing happened to me after my trachea shave!! Can not access my falsetto, pitch dropped etc... I wonder if there’s anything I can do to reverse this ☹️
:( so sorry to hear that. you may want to contact Dr. Thomas about anterior commisure detachment. he has done some revisions and repairs on individuals who had that complication. Please fill out the survey if you haven't
My voice was totally destroyed two years ago during surgery. Two years of voice training and a handful of incompetent ENTs later, my voice is still destroyed and no one can give me a half baked guess as to why.
Thanks for making this video , I'm not a trans person but my Adam's apple is visible and I thought a surgery would be a good option for me but after hearing about the side effects from many post op people in the comments I guess it's not worth the risks it causes to the vocal cords , I guess I'll have to accept myself :)
If the UA-camr you are referring to is Samantha Lux, she discovered it was something else, iirc. She made a couple of vids a about the surgery to correct it.
Just filled out your survey. I'm not really certain I've specifically received a complication from tracheal shave surgery or if it is something else. There are a few potential causes. But I can confirm that now, about 20 months out from surgery, I cannot seem to physically produce a speaking pitch in what used to be my normal range of 190-210hz. I'm only recently really fully aware of it, because I did not regularly evaluate my voice in the last 2 years as I transitioned over a decade prior, did my voice training then, and never had any issues with my voice since then so I simply didn't feel any need to check in about it. My voice is still exclusively gendered correctly by others, or that is to say no one is treating me as though my voice is discordant with my gender, but the pitch is definitely lower. 155-165hz on average. The other characteristics seem to still be female/feminine. But there are some other strange characteristics. Vocal fry seems more common. My voice seems shakier than it used to be. Especially toward the extremes of my vocal range. It also seems to just fatigue easier. It's hard for me to confirm if this is because of tracheal shave, because I don't have any way to prove that. So it's very frustrating. I am planning to get pitch addressing VFS to resolve this issue, and the surgeon is known to be able to correct some assorted pathologic developments in voice patterns. At the very least I'll have a good endoscopic exam of my vocal folds and the surrounding area to produce some evidence if anything unusual is happening there. I really do appreciate your work! You have provided an incredible resource for trans people hoping to feminize their voice that we sorely lacked back in the day!
Agh I'm a singer and I have a tracheal shave scheduled in just a couple weeks... this really makes me nervous but my adam's apple is so big idk if I can deal with *not* getting a tracheal shave. Shit
Gosh, as a singer that would scare me so much. I'm gonna double cross my fingers for you. I understand how bad dysphoria can be. I'm sure it will go amazing!
So I just had FFS last week and Trachea Shave but I still don't know if it has affected my voice. How long should I wait to see the results? Thanks for posting this video I hadn't thought about how it would affect my voice. I guess I will have to wait a few months.
Uhm, it doesn't seem to be the case at the moment. However, degrees of anterior commissure detachment seem like sometimes they wouldn't be able to be fully restored -- instead just improved.
My voice has been impaired and I often get sad thinking about it. Had a simple tracheal shave. Someone told me it could be due to internal scarring. I haven’t sought out a surgeon to fix it yet. :-/
Do you have much experience regarding clients who have received vocal feminization surgery? I was mainly wondering whether you’ve seen issues similar to the ones you addressed in the video arise.
Yes. That's why I made this video! Both my students and friends have been vocally impaired by this procedure. It needs to be made more aware. Just so everyone understands the risks. Hopefully with this survey we get some valuable information about that. Thanks!
I don't know if you continue to monitor your data and this videos comments, but I seem to be one of your inner commissure tissue detachments. It's been 3 years and I've barely improved. What I've improved I think it's because I've been able to work around it. I'm a college educated musician and it goes without saying that losing the ability to sing has been really damaging. Not only for my enjoyment of music but it has also closed career opportunities in the field of teaching for me. I'm quite angry about what happened. Thank you for trying to bring attention to this subject.
Thank you for your response and sharing your story. We are still monitoring the data and this video. We are posting the trach shave survey results sometime this week as a video and eventual paper. Really hoping some of what we found can help prevent experiences like yours in the future. Heart goes out to you. ♥️
So this video came out just a little before my tracheal shave surgery (just had it yesterday). Is there a time frame you would like me to wait before filling out the survey?
Damn that's a little scary, I was just talking with my doctor about looking for a surgeon... I'll keep this in mind hope you get some good information. I wonder if there are any actual scientists you can work with to get a good rigorous sample size? You could reach out to the people who have done other studies, if you haven't. Still I have pretty significant dysphoria from my Adam's apple so I probably would take the risk just hope I don't get unlucky. ;;
Hi can you please make a video simply dedicated to voice feminizing exercises that I can practice. I know you’ve done some but if you can like squish them together In a video and maybe show us more ?
Haven't watched the video yet, but as someone who has had no luck in vocal feminization for months now, it seems like a win-win situation to me. Either it works out fine, and I finally have a good voice, or my voice is fucked up forcing me to go mute which is another win because I never have to use my dysphoric and non-passing voice ever again.
Hi. Tracheal shave isn't a voice feminization surgery. It's adams apple reduction. It should have no impact on voice. It certainly won't make a voice more feminine. Sorry you've been struggling.
If someone has vocal fold bowing (diagnosed by ENT) post surgery is there ANY chance at all that the voice problem (word for word as described in your list for anterior commissure detachment) could respond to behavioral techniques? The surgeon did at CT and insists there is no problem. In other words, do you hypothesize that the maladaptive behavior category only occurs in the absence of visible vocal pathology during ENT exam?
The amount of people identifying as trans and getting this procedure has increased substantially since 2016, so you'll naturally see higher numbers of people with issues. Your profession and popularity is also going to expose you to more cases where there are issues. And asking people to fill out a survey specifically looking for side effects will bias your results. Also, the expectations surrounding trans voices has increased substantially in the past few years (largely thanks to people like you). If you look at trans voice lessons from 15 years ago, or some of the prominent trans people from that time, their voices weren't very natural. So the higher expectations around voice are going to lead to more dissatisfaction from side effects. If 10 years ago these side effects were as common as today, you may not notice complaints about it, because their voices were pretty rough to begin with. But with the ceiling shattered, even a minor effect on voice is going to be a substantial issue.
I wanna improve my horrible voice hahaha. A feminine voice sound much, much better. I thought about doing that laser thing they do to tighten the vocal cords but a friend told that after a while without proper practice they go back to the same male ogre sounding sound.
Could it be that you see a disproportionate amount of patients with impaired voice from surgery because of your occupation and not because the numbers are off?
Yes, I believe directly said this in the video. If not, I accidentally edited it out. I am 100% biased, that's why this research is so important. We need to have better assessment of the risk.
@@TransVoiceLessons Yeah you probably covered it, but my neurodivergent brain can only process so much from audio
@@blaireofhylia1572 she wrote it at the bottom of the screen at 4:57
Blair, I agree that she does see a greater share…which is why she wants to create as large a database of patients that have received this procedure as possible so that future surgery protocols or precautions can be based on a large pool.
It is also likely that those are the kind of people that actually use their voice and range more, and so they are able to notice smaller impairments after the surgery. As oppose to people with no singing/voice experience that won't notice small impairments and won't report those.
I'm still pre-surgeries but I've seen the story of A LOT of trans gals who've gotten the Trachial Shave and later had complications from it, it definetly scares me when I consider my own options.
Me too! Two of my best friends actually have mild long term vocal complications from tracheal shave. I would honestly love to get the procedure because my adams apple makes me a little dysphoric but given what I have personally seen, it's unacceptable. I truly hope this research and movement can make it better for transpeople moving forward. Maybe we can identify a surgeon who has never botched to go to while identifying surgeons with higher rates of vocal collateral damage to avoid. There's honestly so many ways we can pool our information together as a community to find the safest way for people to access this.
I cannot believe how great your voice is. I refuse to get vocal surgery because of the risk and I hate surgeries. Luckily for me my Adam’s apple isn’t visible.
Same
No fair
Thank you for this. I had mine 20 years ago this coming February and while helping my physical appearance, I find it extremely difficult to get any volume, proper resonance, and singing in a higher register is nearly impossible.
I will be filling out the survey. Thank you. 💜
I should clarify that my volume issue is only present when trying higher registers and not in the lower “male” registers.
Voice training actually got my Adams apple high enough that I don't really notice it at all, so thank you for that, but I'm glad you're doing this. This sort of community sourced information is the only way I think trans ppl will actually get accurate medical data. I might look into doing similar studies for progesterone, Spiro, etc,
It sucks to hear how many trans people feel uncomfortable about having one, while I know quite a couple of women who have a visible one and no one would ever focus on that body characteristic.
I will be honest, I can not imagine what it feels like for someone to suffer from it, because mine never was visible, but it was a big shock to learn it was actually a thing people tend to look for...
A former friend of mine had a different technique performed, she had a piece of muscle tissue layed over her adamsapple so the bump was less visible.
(I still have to start vocal therapy by the way, I had figured to do that in 2020 after my orchidectomy and unfortunately the outcome didn't go as planned).
I mean if u die it will drop I think does that make u dysphoric by any chance even tho u will be dead..
I had a trachea shave in 2016 and, on top of loss of range, have developed chronic pain in my throat that gets worse with use. I've been working with a voice therapist for years and have made no progress. Even on days when I hardly use my voice I'll be in pain. This is not minor stuff. I've not heard anyone else talking about this until now. Thanks for this.
Thanks for bringing awareness to this issue! I see a 5th risk factor in addition to the ones you listed: a voice overuse injury secondary to the acute dysfunction that occurs during the recovery period (swollen, inflamed, dehydrated or in any other way suboptimally healthy vocal cords are more injury-prone). This could be another explanation of how people can become seriously injured despite low "theoritical" risk.
Definitely!!
Thank you for all you do for the community. We need more role models like you.
That's really so kind. I'm thankful to be in a position to help and create change.
I may sound like a truck driver but I'm a trucker with a damn good singing voice. Nobody's coming anywhere near my throat with a knife 😂
😂😂😂 my thoughts exactly
Cis person here. A cis woman I'm close to had to have a thyroidectomy a while back; and the risk of potential vocal complications meant that she had to retire from a lifetime of professional classical singing. While she was fine, it nevertheless does indicate that anything anywhere near the thyroid is going to have some vocal risk implicated. I guess coming from that perspective, it makes sense that a tracheal shave would pose some potential danger to the way the voice works. It's awful that there's little information around re the risks associated with chondrolaryngoplasty, and nobody should have to face a choice between dysphoria and vocal damage. So thank you for making this video, and for the amazing voice work you do on here; I hope that the survey goes as well as it can for you.
Wtf is a ciswoman cisman?
I have recently discovered that I am trans, and one of the things that worries me about this is potential damage to the false folds. I'm an aspiring metal vocalist, and I've been learning (or more aptly, trying and failing to learn) how to do false chord/fold screams. False chord screams being the safe method of producing the trademark "Death Growl". As someone with a fairly massive Adam's apple who is realizing the depths of my dysphoria, I understand that I might have to consider a tracheal shave in the future for the sake of my mental health, or at least passability. Every study that I have read about this surgery does not even mention the false folds, or the effects that it could have on the other three non-modal vocal registers.
metal, fuck yeah!
go you! I love metal!
Thank you, this is such an overlooked complication. My voice was significantly lower & hoarse after my shave and I had no idea what was the issue, except that I had significant problems swallowing. Only after I saw a video on youtube of another girl who went to my surgeon posting a trachea shave adhesion video did I visually understand what the issue was. This time I went to a different surgeon, Dr. Harrison Lee. He operated on me and released the adhesion. I am 8 weeks post op and can raise my voice easily. I think if you are questioning if there is an issue with your throat to first visually check for adhesion, it is easy to spot if you compare to that video. Now there was another complication before my surgery with Lee that I am waiting to see if it reappears. When I would sleep it would feel as if my airway would collapse as if I was having sleep apnea. I never had that issue before the first trachea shave.
Thank you so much for sharing your story! Please participate in the survey. It will help out so much! We are already getting amazing data from it. Im also so glad to hear you've had your adhesion released and have regained vocal function. Thank you!!!
Do you have a link for the video?
i know this is an old comment so hoping you see it, but i am in the same situation and was wondering if you'd be willing to share any info about the recovery, cost, etc for this? Was it local anesthesia? And did you have a very visible incision from the revision? thanks < 3
Thank you so much for this, really means a lot to me that you made this video as someone who plans to get this surgery xx
So glad this is helpful!
@@TransVoiceLessons not sure if the youtuber you were referring to was Samantha Lux but if it wasn't I think her videos on her botched vocal surgery could be useful to you xx
I don't think I experienced a pitch drop in my normal speaking voice post tracheal shave, but I have noticed that I can't access my falsetto. Which.. makes me sad, as someone who enjoys singing. I used to unintentionally honk in my falsetto when laughing/thinking something was cute that became a small expression of personality for me. I found out quickly I couldn't do that anymore, and that something hadn't quite healed right. This honestly has made me quite uneasy about my surgical result. Also, my scar right at the trachea is quite large and obviously noticeable to me and I assume others. I'm not sure if my feedback would be valuable on the survey. I'm not sure if my outcome was behavioral or surgical malpractice.
Please fill out the survey! Every tracheal shave experience is extremely extremely valuable and has a real chance to make it better for others in the future to avoid vocal impairment. I'm really sorry you've experienced some degree of vocal impairment. It's really frustrating to read about and that's exactly what motivates this video and the survey I made. Please help us count every voice -- especially those who have experienced some degree of impairment.
Also you may consider reaching out to Dr. James Thomas. He is a very skilled otolaryngologist and has experience fixing complications like this if you decide you want to explore what options for solution are out there.
I filled out the survey, thanks for your time.
I have a consultation for this surgery next month so I’m really excited to hear back on the survey results. The vocal risks will definitely be something I bring up during my consultation. Although I’m not gonna lie, it’s a little bit scary hearing what can go wrong 😅 Thank you for using your platform for this, please update us with the results 🖤
I’ve had so many good experiences thus far during my transition that it’s easy to forget about all the risks that come not just with surgery, but basically everything about being myself.
As someone who feels like she needs surgeries like bottom surgery, and ffs (which will include trach shave because I’m very insecure about my apple), and I am terrified. I’m afraid of all the complications, I’m afraid of the common to extremely rare ones, and I know it’s not helping my anxiety, but I know it’s a necessary risk to feel 100% comfortable in my body at this point in history.
For sure! Complications are part of it. It's really important to be aware and informed about the risks. The big issue with this surgery is it seems so many individuals weren't informed of the risks or the risks themselves are far understated.
More information is desperately needed. Thank you for taking initiative! 💜
Thanks for this i will show this vid to my trans friend 💚
from helping people find their voices to saving their's too...
So thankful for this video, been wondering about this for a long time and I've been told by other trans women in my area to not ever get it.
You truly are the best, Z! Keep it up!
:3
I am so grateful and admire you much! Full transparency, I am a cis SLP who works primarily with gender diverse clients. I have had the immense fortune of working with a few surgeons who recognize the value of the voice and think carefully about the physiology and anatomy. Sadly, the surgeons who are publishing probably aren’t the ones who HAVE the most complications, so it’s underreported. I noticed at least one of the studies you cited had the surgeons doing simultaneous imaging of the VFs…this is a small thing that has incredible potential. I get the impression, too, that many women aren’t getting the education they deserve on aftercare. Informed consent, education, is so critical. It will be an honor to share with my clients!
Thank you for making this video, I lost my ability to squeal or ‘whistle’ after my shave 😭 6 years later I still can’t.
:( so sorry to hear that. Please fill out the survey if you haven't
Wait can she squeal by any chance like a high pit he'd child scream..
@@Idk.-. no..
I fully support the survey and your goals with it. I will try and remember to share this on my own transgender awareness channel as I also need record an episode soon. My voice dysphoria is bad and makes me ill, extremely ill, so much that I was seriously considering this. However, my VA voice therapist said I've been making a lot of progress and as I continue to learn the risks about it, the more I want to avoid it. It is difficult but I don't think it is impossible especially after last night when talking with a Cis gendered woman over the phone for hours and she said I sounded completely female. I still don't have the sound I wish to have consistently and if I don't focus the male voice comes out which is distressing.
Thank you so much! The more individuals we can get to report the experience the more confidence we can have in the data and the more authority we can use the information with to make real positive change. You mentioned your voice dysphoria and how you were considering this surgery -- this surgery isn't a voice surgery. It's a purely cosmetic surgery which reduces the adams apple visibility. :)
this whole thing of surgeons and doctors glossing over risks in gender afforming surgeries is insane. I have a friend who recently just had a vocal surgery that made the space where resonance occurs smaller so that her voice would sound higher pitched and more feminine. She was aware that there'd be swelling and vocal loss for the first few weeks, but she wasn't aware that it would make her voice squeaky and uncomfortable to speak let alone sing, she can't belt and her vocal range is at best 6 notes out of an octave.
Important work as always
As always Zhea you are an inspiration to us all. Thank you so much for All the work you have done! There are so many issues faced everyday by transfolk in every corner of the world and having this resource goes a long way in relieving some of the fears and solitude we all face.
I am especially moved by the depth of scope you are reaching for to further impact our world to further pull back the shroud of invisibility that transgender have long been hidden behind. Cheers my friend and Brave On! You are more than necessary and more than Loved!
Thanks Z, love your work 💕
Thank you for your hard work and dedication.
I am definitely impaired after 2 and a half years post-trach shave.
As a fellow voice professional, thanks for bringing attention to this! We need a longitudinal study with a large sample size. Voice range profiles would be a good metric to look at this, I think.
Someone should send this video to Samantha Lux. She openly had issues after her tracheal shave.
Thank You so much for your support in this matter! I appreciate your passion and energy! ❤❤❤
Thank you!
Good idea. Our community must know where to get genuine healthy help.
Filled it out. Had to dig up my old surgery papers to find out the exact date required to fill in the survey. If my voice was affected by the surgery, I don't feel confident I had the tools to assess that back then in July 2016 because I only started working on voice fem in February 2021... but as far as I knew back then, I did not notice a change in my voice from the surgery.
Thanks so much for your response!
Thank you Z!!! this is so so so informative, I have not had this surgery yet. I have a consult in November hoping to have this done sometime early next year. Again thank you soo much!!!
Imagine my surprise when I watch these videos to improve my voice and it leads me to Miss Lux and her surgeon who turned out to be my surgeon... I had a trache shave a few years back and after watching her video I might have the same issue as her. Thankfully I have a consultation scheduled soon.
i appreciate the information! i hope it helps many people.
personally, i will be getting one in the future, as my Adam's apple is insanely large.
i'll definitely share my thoughts on the experience, after ive had it.
Thanks so much! I hope we can make some awesome change too. Thanks for planning to add your experience to the survey! Wait ~2 months after to answer. :)
When I started HRT, I knew I would have to get the shave. The apple was huge. Two weeks after starting voice therapy, it was gone. The muscles pulled it up and out of the way!
My wife wants her done and I’m worried about the risks …
I know Laura Jane Grace had a trache shave and also has really good documentation of her voice through her singing and interviews both pre-surgery and post. If there are micro-changes even after a normal surgery, she may be a good individual to look at with them.
I'm curious about those studies that say there is no vocal impairment and whether they are looking at a vocally trained voice or a voice with no vocal training. Because the way those vocal tracts move and are used are clearly very different, and it's an important distinction.
The research methodologies in those are so sketchy. In the n=112 study, they asked patients, "are you satisfied with your voice" and then concluded "no voice impairment occurred" literally insane. These are also literally the studies that doctors use to say there is essentially no vocal risk. This survey is gonna put a huge spotlight on it!
@@TransVoiceLessons Good to know! Thanks so much for spearheading this effort Z. 🙌
Samantha Lux had a tracheal shave surgery that caused scarring & required a second surgery to fix but im sure you probably already know that💕
Things like handwriting and walking and talking are all significantly affected by big changes in body size and shape, which explains a lot of what we see as feminine elegance, and the other half of us have to relearn those things, sometimes from scratch. It's better to solve an issue of practice with practicing, instead of through a modification that resets the learning curve and potentially hobbles the instrument. After practicing with vocal training videos for both upper vocal range and bridging for a couple months, I can pretty easily switch back and forth between a pretty high mixed upper range and a deep deep movie announcer voice, which I would love to try to teach you how to make, but i'm not entirely sure the internal mechanics of, since I could make the grunting sound it's formed from since I was around 8.
I've had it done like 4 years ago and haven't had any issues yet. Also, just an advice to those who're considering getting it done. Don't get it done only under local anesthesia.... Don't do the same stupid thing as I did. Local anesthesia works only on the soft tissues...
EDIT: Did you get your trachea shaved?
This part is a bit gory so if you don't have stomach for it don't read further.
Nobody prepared me for the pain that comes from the pressure the surgeon had to apply to cut that fuckin' trachea off.. I was questioning my whole stupid life on that operation table and I thought to myself, this is what it feels like having my throat slit. I had a blue blanket over my whole body and as I was shaking from pain and clenching my hands on my stomach, the nurse was holding them. Not sure if that was so I won't move them in a surgeons way or coz she felt so sorry for me. Thinking about it, I'm realising how strong the gender dysporia is and how far we're willing to go to change these bodies we don't feel comfortable with/bodies we often hate for what they are.
If I'd have opted for a full anesthesia everything would've been fine.
Glad you haven't had any issues!
Nah, given the fact I have seen so many individuals with vocal impairment, I will never get a tracheal shave regardless of the dysphoria. Voice is such an important part of my identity in multiple ways. Unlike average cases, I would notice if even 1% of my voice changed and that would cause me tremendous suffering.
Gosh that sounds brutal lol!
@@TransVoiceLessons Thanks. Oh I see, but your trachea is not prominent at all. When I watch your videos u seem like u either had a trachea shave done or u have a totally female neck. In my case it was really prominent and it had to go. When I spoke to the surgeon and complained to him that he could've took more out of that cartilage he said he didn't want to as he didn't wanna cause any damage to my vocal chords. I was a bit upset about it but got used to it. It's much better than it used to be.
Ikr... That was one of the biggest mistakes I've ever done in my life.
@@Hikari_Sakurai My resonance is normalized very high. As a result, when I speak my adams apple isn't visible. I actually have quite a visible adams apple otherwise.
@@TransVoiceLessons ooooh I see. so is that part of the voice training? to get used to like push the adams apple up high? I'd have to still think about it.
There are similar issues with bottom surgeries for trans people. Complications, long-term medical issues, under-informing people. It's so scary.
I am both glad and terrified I watched this vid. I'm going in for my trachea shave in less than a month...
I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya!
@@TransVoiceLessons Probably don't remember this... but surgery went great... Lower face, top, and trachea. Most of the swelling is gone and I really couldn't be happier.
@@moirarinn7826 I'm sooo happy to hear that!!
@@moirarinn7826 hey happy for you. So your voice did not change ?
I've just joined the surgery queue for undergoing it on the public health care over here. Hopefully, 2~5 years from now, when it's my turn, things will be better.
Mine makes me too dysphoric
GORL, I am LICHRALLY going in for it next month
I'm sending my best magical energy to make it go as well as possible!! You'll do great!
Submitted the survey! I also shared this video with three trans female related Facebook groups, so hopefully you will get some responses from others that see your request in those groups!
Thanks sooo much!! :)
@@TransVoiceLessons you are welcome! Glad to pitch in a little for a good cause! Thank you for asking good questions and looking for answers!
Dammit I was really hoping I would be able to sing and get rid of my Adam’s apple without having to worry about ruining my voice even more
Wow, I had never heard of there being complications!
I've had wendler glottoplasty done 2 years ago. My voice got high pitched at the start and then fell back to a lower range, though not as low as it was before. I stuck with a really weird voice that is indefinite, definitely more gay-ish than feminine. I'm completely unable to project my voice in loud places, when I try to speak louder it gets thin, raspy and squeaky, at times it disappears. In these situations it's hard to make myself understood. Sad.
Wendler glottoplasty will typically just change fundamental and source stuff. you could still do a lot for your voice with resonance modification if you haven't really explored or mastered that. Sorry to hear your voice surgery didn't work out as intended.
I've had a consultation with a surgeon (Dr Kathy Rumer, Philadelphia PA USA) for a tracheal shave is, it's the only thing I want besides an orchi, and I already talked about an orchiectomy too. I hope I wouldn't have any long term complications but I don't know, surgery in general kinda scares me a little. But that being said there are always risks. I know she told me about the risks and complications. I know she can be hit or miss, but that was more vaginoplasties from what I have heard, and getting a revision for any procedure is not at all ideal.
I did not do a tracheal shave... but i did another surgery with my voice alteration. I regret my action as I cannot do high pitch now. I cant sing well. And my voice sounds horrible...
I'm so sorry to hear that. :( what procedure did you have done?
@@TransVoiceLessons I need to find back the paper for what is it called. But the surgery involve laser the tear-drop shaped vocal cord (the sharp side) and stitching it to heal. I have no voice for 6 months after the surgery. The vocal cord became narrow after scar tissue is formed.
You are inspirational girl.
My adams apple is ridiculously pronounced. I'm basically forced to undergo it if i wanna have a chance at passing. This scares me...
The same thing happened to me after my trachea shave!! Can not access my falsetto, pitch dropped etc... I wonder if there’s anything I can do to reverse this ☹️
:( so sorry to hear that. you may want to contact Dr. Thomas about anterior commisure detachment. he has done some revisions and repairs on individuals who had that complication. Please fill out the survey if you haven't
@@TransVoiceLessons Thanks. I did fill out the survey :)
My voice was totally destroyed two years ago during surgery. Two years of voice training and a handful of incompetent ENTs later, my voice is still destroyed and no one can give me a half baked guess as to why.
Thanks for making this video , I'm not a trans person but my Adam's apple is visible and I thought a surgery would be a good option for me but after hearing about the side effects from many post op people in the comments I guess it's not worth the risks it causes to the vocal cords , I guess I'll have to accept myself :)
If the UA-camr you are referring to is Samantha Lux, she discovered it was something else, iirc. She made a couple of vids a about the surgery to correct it.
Thanks. I'll double check on this.
10:00 i'm 100% Sure you were refering to Samantha lux
That sounds right! I couldn't remember who it was. :) thanks!
No Problem i'm watching a lot of female Trans influenzers
why are there any dislikes in this video? did people hit the wrong button?
I haven't Had a tracheal shave surgery yet but i'm plannning to get one in the future together with a vocal Cord (voice feminisation) surgery
When i got my surgery i will keep that Video in mind and fill out the survey
Just filled out your survey. I'm not really certain I've specifically received a complication from tracheal shave surgery or if it is something else. There are a few potential causes. But I can confirm that now, about 20 months out from surgery, I cannot seem to physically produce a speaking pitch in what used to be my normal range of 190-210hz. I'm only recently really fully aware of it, because I did not regularly evaluate my voice in the last 2 years as I transitioned over a decade prior, did my voice training then, and never had any issues with my voice since then so I simply didn't feel any need to check in about it.
My voice is still exclusively gendered correctly by others, or that is to say no one is treating me as though my voice is discordant with my gender, but the pitch is definitely lower. 155-165hz on average. The other characteristics seem to still be female/feminine. But there are some other strange characteristics. Vocal fry seems more common. My voice seems shakier than it used to be. Especially toward the extremes of my vocal range. It also seems to just fatigue easier.
It's hard for me to confirm if this is because of tracheal shave, because I don't have any way to prove that. So it's very frustrating. I am planning to get pitch addressing VFS to resolve this issue, and the surgeon is known to be able to correct some assorted pathologic developments in voice patterns. At the very least I'll have a good endoscopic exam of my vocal folds and the surrounding area to produce some evidence if anything unusual is happening there.
I really do appreciate your work! You have provided an incredible resource for trans people hoping to feminize their voice that we sorely lacked back in the day!
Agh I'm a singer and I have a tracheal shave scheduled in just a couple weeks... this really makes me nervous but my adam's apple is so big idk if I can deal with *not* getting a tracheal shave. Shit
Gosh, as a singer that would scare me so much. I'm gonna double cross my fingers for you. I understand how bad dysphoria can be. I'm sure it will go amazing!
Doctors probably only consider complete loss of ability to speak as "vocal impairment".
Indeed. That's insane and immoral.
Just had trachea shave yesterday, my voice is hoarse 20 hours after the surgery, hopefully it won’t be permanent 😢
And how is it now?
So I just had FFS last week and Trachea Shave but I still don't know if it has affected my voice. How long should I wait to see the results? Thanks for posting this video I hadn't thought about how it would affect my voice. I guess I will have to wait a few months.
Hey angel. I really really need to talk to you. I’m desperate.
Where can we see the results from the survey?
Hi! I'm in the process of scheduling a surgery date for this. Is there any data released yet?
I am bothered by my 'adam's apple', but a friend said that my adam's apple isn't really prominent, so now I'm conflicted.
Any news about your survey? Are there any results available already?
This all sounds like the surgeon clipped a nerve.
I’m curious to know if you have found any literature or heard anything from people who do the intraoral method.
By the way... Are there any long term complications that aren't fixable at all not even with surgery?
Uhm, it doesn't seem to be the case at the moment. However, degrees of anterior commissure detachment seem like sometimes they wouldn't be able to be fully restored -- instead just improved.
@@TransVoiceLessons phew that's atleast a bit relieaving to know. Thanks
This is exactly what I have been dealing with. Do you do private voice lessons? And if so how can I sign up?
what about voice feminization surgery, can that hurt your voice?
Yes definitely. In different ways though. I'll do a video on VFS procedures sometime in the future.
My voice has been impaired and I often get sad thinking about it. Had a simple tracheal shave. Someone told me it could be due to internal scarring. I haven’t sought out a surgeon to fix it yet. :-/
Do you have much experience regarding clients who have received vocal feminization surgery?
I was mainly wondering whether you’ve seen issues similar to the ones you addressed in the video arise.
Yes. That's why I made this video! Both my students and friends have been vocally impaired by this procedure. It needs to be made more aware. Just so everyone understands the risks. Hopefully with this survey we get some valuable information about that. Thanks!
I don't know if you continue to monitor your data and this videos comments, but I seem to be one of your inner commissure tissue detachments. It's been 3 years and I've barely improved. What I've improved I think it's because I've been able to work around it. I'm a college educated musician and it goes without saying that losing the ability to sing has been really damaging. Not only for my enjoyment of music but it has also closed career opportunities in the field of teaching for me. I'm quite angry about what happened.
Thank you for trying to bring attention to this subject.
Thank you for your response and sharing your story. We are still monitoring the data and this video. We are posting the trach shave survey results sometime this week as a video and eventual paper.
Really hoping some of what we found can help prevent experiences like yours in the future. Heart goes out to you. ♥️
@@TransVoiceLessons hii, is there an update on this? i'd love to see the results
So this video came out just a little before my tracheal shave surgery (just had it yesterday). Is there a time frame you would like me to wait before filling out the survey?
Damn that's a little scary, I was just talking with my doctor about looking for a surgeon... I'll keep this in mind hope you get some good information. I wonder if there are any actual scientists you can work with to get a good rigorous sample size? You could reach out to the people who have done other studies, if you haven't. Still I have pretty significant dysphoria from my Adam's apple so I probably would take the risk just hope I don't get unlucky. ;;
Is Chondrolaryngoplasty the same thing as Voice Feminization Surgery and if it's not what the difference in the two?
Do you have the results of this?
well it looks like i'll be chilling with extra t h i c c thyroid cartilage for the foreseeable future
s a m e
Hi can you please make a video simply dedicated to voice feminizing exercises that I can practice. I know you’ve done some but if you can like squish them together In a video and maybe show us more ?
I wanted to get a tracheal shave I’m so uncomfortable with it poking out my neck lmao why is life like this
Why its so sexy why leve it alone most love this
zheanna on top zheanna uwu
Haven't watched the video yet, but as someone who has had no luck in vocal feminization for months now, it seems like a win-win situation to me. Either it works out fine, and I finally have a good voice, or my voice is fucked up forcing me to go mute which is another win because I never have to use my dysphoric and non-passing voice ever again.
Hi. Tracheal shave isn't a voice feminization surgery. It's adams apple reduction. It should have no impact on voice. It certainly won't make a voice more feminine. Sorry you've been struggling.
If someone has vocal fold bowing (diagnosed by ENT) post surgery is there ANY chance at all that the voice problem (word for word as described in your list for anterior commissure detachment) could respond to behavioral techniques? The surgeon did at CT and insists there is no problem. In other words, do you hypothesize that the maladaptive behavior category only occurs in the absence of visible vocal pathology during ENT exam?
Hi, I had chondrolaryngoplasty yesterday...and...oddly my pitch has increased. I'm very surprised and wandering if this is common?
How can I get lessons
I’m feeling suicidal due to complications with my trichea shave
I hope you are ok. 🙏
Can't help much, but I am hoping a like, comment, and click of the old share button helps you some.
Everything helps! ty
The amount of people identifying as trans and getting this procedure has increased substantially since 2016, so you'll naturally see higher numbers of people with issues. Your profession and popularity is also going to expose you to more cases where there are issues. And asking people to fill out a survey specifically looking for side effects will bias your results.
Also, the expectations surrounding trans voices has increased substantially in the past few years (largely thanks to people like you). If you look at trans voice lessons from 15 years ago, or some of the prominent trans people from that time, their voices weren't very natural. So the higher expectations around voice are going to lead to more dissatisfaction from side effects. If 10 years ago these side effects were as common as today, you may not notice complaints about it, because their voices were pretty rough to begin with. But with the ceiling shattered, even a minor effect on voice is going to be a substantial issue.
I have to know what’s that BG music
It's music I composed. :) unreleased. But part of it became the original sound track to the game Scrap Mechanic
I wanna improve my horrible voice hahaha. A feminine voice sound much, much better. I thought about doing that laser thing they do to tighten the vocal cords but a friend told that after a while without proper practice they go back to the same male ogre sounding sound.