Grind for sake of grind sounds like destiny 2 a season lasts 100 days but you can do all the story stuff for the season in an hour if you wait for it to all unlock. It's padded out with shitty timegating progress in everyway
"MMO's disrespect us and therefore in turn players do the same" So true what a profound takeaway that I had never thought of quite like that. Brilliant video' as always!
Profound my ass, he sayin people respected TBC and WOTLK, well now we have an example of what happens when you bring them up live again - there is no respect, only spreadsheet optimisation.
I think no fast travel is okay as long as travel is part of the progression of the game. For example mounts are a massive feel good progression milestone in classic WoW. The difference in NW was there was no progression for travel.
@@supersonicgamerguru The days of classic of waking up in the morning and using a gryphon for 5 mins while you get a coffee and chill was so underrated. Classic wow had a great feeling. Every game now is a speedrun. You must be at max efficiency to have fun. That means teleporting and fast travelling, using jumps when walking when its faster etc. Classic allowed people to enjoy the game imo. Every game i play now if you take a break its like you're wasting time. Classic had that feel as to just enjoy the journey
@@supersonicgamerguru Did u ever consider this isnt the type of game to repeatedly send u from point A to B. I know its hard to imagine a good MMO but dont rule something out as bad until uve seen how its implemented.
@@maxrusty3596 Litteraly any game that wastes your time by going to A and B will bleed players, doesnt mean it will be bad or good, but in the end Ashes will be a niche game kind of like EvE online etc.
@@leonc4653 Having something that mimics reality only makes the game seem larger than it is and more immersive. Like the world can be the biggest world in any video game, but not exploring the world or having any type of travel is just boring. Like retail wow dungeon finder is so dog shit. It ruins interactions in the world. Back then you had to find people to go in with you now its all just boring and makes the game less playable for me. it's like you might as well play with ai's
Limited fast travel as long as it makes sense. Airships, mounts and ships connecting major ports like Archeage will help. I also like the idea of upgrading ships and mounts to increase speed or speed buffs by using potions, food or magic saddles on mounts maybe. My issue is being able to get anywhere on the map at the snap of a finger.
Just like almost everything, balance is imortant. Having to walk everywhere is bad but being able to teleport everywhere is also bad. However a balance of things is always hard to achieve since every human has different values to their time consumption
depends, if you have already been there and there is a waypoint, fast travel, new location walk or horse. I don't want to walk to a location I have been to 100s of times every time a start the game.
I have yet to play a game where fast travelling would have made it worse, quite the opposite. In BDO for an example, it is just huge waste of time to watch your horse run to the other end of the world. Also in WoW I hate that I cannot just choose from a list where to go, I need to google everytime how to get where, which is bullshit. If I had to walk all over in FF, that would also be horrible, imagine having a house in Limsa and then you had to go buy some tome gear from Radz-At-Han, then to the Gold Saucer in Thanalan and after that maybe you would like to do some raiding and again walk to the Elpis, yeah no thanks. Every major place should be teleporable in an mmo. Fast travel take nothing away from the game, you can still walk if you don't like it, it is not like you are forced to use it.
The main reason theu don't want to allow fast travel is the caravan system for transporting goods. I think what they'll end up doing in the end is allowing limited fast travel but in order to do so you can't have any tradable goods in your inventory. This would keep theor vision of an area based economy in tacked but allow people to meet up with friends in a somewhat convenient way
2:45 “Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.” - Soren Johnson, co-designer for Civilization IV.
True, but then "Many" is a vague denomination. "Many people are clinically obese. Many people are not clinically obese" - both are true. There are also "Many players that don't especially want to optimize, but feel that they would be disadvantaged if they don't, so they act on optimization advice from others". I really like that Ashes won't show DPS metrics, it makes it more difficult to quantify and compare straight facts. Optimization will still occur, but it will be based on players devising Empirical Metrics. Eg. Measuring how quickly someone can dispatch ten specific mobs within a specific area. The result is blurred due to *circumstances*, which is a big improvement on games/players that kick other players based on DPS statistics.
@@mcmackmuckm8180 Many may be vague in the quantity, but it states its existence. And the second sentence is not vague at all. I agree that the lack of add-ons is a good thing, as long as they make the UI as customizable as they claim they will.
@@thearcanian5921 Making a optimal play and figure it out is very rewarding. having the answer given to you is not the same thing. did you misread what I said?
When you carve or gather super rare items in MonHun World your character actually shows it off or has an altered animation. I like that a lot and hope to see similar stuff in other games
I think players will stabilish in a region and travel will be the adventure. EvE is like that, people live in a region where they farm materials, kills npcs and make bases. Then, when they want pvp or other pve action they do together. In Ashes you will not need to go around the map for leveling, you will have everything needed to level and play close to your chosen node.
@@HaunterV no, it may happen but its not what i said. People will be close whatever node or region they feel its best for their needs. Theres no need to constant travel like other mmos and when they(whatever number) want travel for explorarion, economy and loot, after that they will come back to their place. I see people moving very little when nodes reach lvl 5+.
Good point. Also if you are trying to make a game where players are invested in building up and defending their own corner of the world while allowing them to attack caravans or even player run settlements then instant fast travel causes another issue. Being able to warp around the world effectively allows large guilds to mass all their forces in one place at the drop of a hat allowing them to slam raid smaller guilds territory and win by sheer numbers and then return just as quickly to defend their own resources. Limiting fast travel means that it takes a significant amount of time moving bodies around which means that any guild trying to mass up for a zerg rush risks weakening their own regions for a significant amount of time due to travel time, making instant slam raids impossible and massed raids a real risk.
@@HaunterV the way this is solved in Eve Online is that fringe zones have higher risk and are further away, but they offer much better rewards for almost every activity. This makes it so coalitions of players are fighting to control the fringe zones, while most players are in the safer central zones where the trade hubs are. I image that this way of balancing zones could exist in Ashes of Creation.
For example old wow. You get to a flight master and get the point discovered to then "fast travel". So the journey needed preserves and then next time you dont have to. You earned it. It wssnt given out to you. The same can apply to some portal to a city/dungeon/raid/party etc. Then it's rewarding and making sense in both ways (ease of use and actually using the world to the advantage anx not having all instanced)
I don't like teleporting to non instances either. But I'll take a system like the Dragon riding, alongside a flight path for afk travel, due to the agency it gives you - transforms travel into gameplay.
@@dmt472 Aka you want Flight Paths from wow... which only serve as a waste of time. in a map like this going one side to the other would take 3 hours, not even a joke. Its a bad idea. Just let people teleport once they've been there once.
I remember taking newer people to flight paths for gold on two player mounts like that rocket when it was introduced got a few thousand gold doing that so people did skip some of that journey that way. But I agree wow did it right when I came to travel.
Hell yeah. That first run from the starting area to a major city was a rite of passage back in the day. That's the kind of stuff I miss. Having to plan out a two day free period to attempt to complete an endgame raid in EQ because you know your in for a ten hour fight and that's after you finally managed to get to the raid boss with your 80 person raid.
I think forcing players through areas before allowing fast travel makes sense. Like you have to hit a certain point before you can travel around quickly. This allows players to both experience the world but then not get burnt out running to xyz area for the 50th time.
That only makes sense for a themepark MMO. Ashes is a Sandpark MMO, and you could play your entire gameplay career on a server for years without ever having to move through more then a few zones. Sure, you can travel the map. But you don't have to. You will not be forced to. THAT is the biggest difference. Travel time matters for trade and war logistics, and it is not a massive burden on players who won't deal with that, due to the limited scope of mandatory gameplay. Only those who choose to travel will interact with that massive distance and no fast travel.
A big part of the problem with new world was exactly what Asmon said. I hated running across the map to complete a single quest. If I was doing 25 quests in the area across the map and spent the time doing all of them, it would feel more worth it to return and get that big payout. Things were just to sparse and on top of it, it took forever to get anywhere.
What if there was still quite some traveltime, but you could spend an hour or two solving alot of quests once you arrived? Or for example travelling to a spot with eeeexcellent exp from grinding and maybe parking the toon there for days? It only makes sense that travelling should not be 90% of the playtime, but I think that is just poor implementation in New World. Noone wants to spend 10 minutes running then kill 5 monsters and then run back. But that doesnt mean that teleporting and fasttravel is the only solution.
I have a very good example. In DaoC there was both PvE zones and RvR zones. There was also monsters in the RvR zones and they yielded very good exp and gear that was valuable to salvage for materials. So alot of highlevel (but not maxed out) people would go just ouside their safe 'border-keeps' to kill monsters, and those people were prime to hunt for solo stealthers and small raidingparties. But stealthers would have to either run all the way there risking to run into zergs, groups or other stealthergankers OR they would have to stealth all the way there wich was atleast 30-40 mins in slowmotion running (fml!). The prize for going there was very worth it, but the journey was a nightmare and sometimes you would get there and the place was empty! It could be very frustrating, but that makes the big moments and progress shine that much brighter imo! I really liked that type of gameplay, including when you would get invited to some group and you have to think about if the journey is worth it and what other options is available, instead of it being "sure lets do that whatever" autopilot all the time. I would prefer if they gave some class a very powerfull group runspeed buff instead of teleport tbh and maybe just let people port between capital cities from an npc. If there is teleports in the game then even if they are rare, there will just be people setting up alts to gain money and make teleports available everywhere.
That's just bad game design. Quest hubs are an obvious system that has been widely successful to keep pacing nad questing interesting and less tedious. If quests and their objectives were clustered then lack of fast travel is less punishing. Having wide spread quest/objectives AND no fast travel options is just absurd.
What others said. It is bad game design not lack of fast travel that contributed to your problem. Getting lost in New World was some of the most fun I had in the game. When there are interesting things happening in the world, the travel doesn’t feel inconvenient. But quest hubs sprawled out arbitrarily and a questline that forced you to drain your recalls and azoth made questing a nightmare. I didn’t quit, but I also didn’t quest. I just went exploring and did the quests I had to to unlock dungeons.
Not having fast travel only works if you don't have to travel constantly across the world and you can stay in one place for a good amount of time. EverQuest as odd as it sounds, is actually a good comp for this, as once you found a zone you wanted to hunt in, you would stay there for days, if not weeks grinding. (I realize it did have fast travel)
Classic vanilla did a really great job with the travel. Getting a new flight path, especially a far one, was super satisfying (aka getting Gadgetzan when you're alliance). And the flight time keeps the world feeling big while still being relatively fast once you've unlocked it. A very great balance for that style of game IMO
I think WoW is still better than most other MMOs with regard to that. When leveling right now, you still have to use flight paths or take zeppelins or w/e and that makes the world feel real. Or at least more real and big than it does in games like FF where you can just...select your destination out of a menu and teleport there with no friction whatsoever. Sure theres a lot more teleportation now and the end game experience can be done from a hub, but its still way more actual traveling than other big mmos out there and I prefer that feel.
Yep, its the fastest way to travel without a CD, but your character is still physically travelling. You get a nice tour of the area or even places youve not yet reached. Not sure why more MMOs dont do this
Yeah, flight paths are the best compromise, I think. In Final Fantasy I never got any sense of the shape of the world because I always just teleported from place to place.
Game developer and CEO of a small gaming studio here. I would love to have you as an advisor to our first game if you're interested. We are currently in the alpha testing phases. Will reach out via other means, just watching this video, as I have many of yours, and realized you'd be a real asset to have poke holes in our game/gameloop.
Financial analyst, behaviorial research scientist with a PhD in hyperoptimizing deep neural networks here. You need to spend money on building a consumer throughput pipeline and maximize ctr at all costs no matter what the objective is. That's the only thing you need. Nothing else. They're all a waste of capital and time.
Yeah, this is why I like New World; I get to discover the world more than in other mmorpgs due to the concept of gathering ressources to craft. I can't wait for mounts, though, if only to get to the 3km quests in world with a mount instead of porting to it with Azoth. It's more immersive for me.
I really loved the dynamics in EQ. basically certain classes got access to speed buffs (ex. Druid casing Spirit of Wolf). Caused players to interact and ask for buffs and the like. There were no mounts i believe, then even when they were there it was still just a "buff"
I absolutely loved EQ as a kid. The atmosphere was fantastic and guild raids were always a good community effort. The quests were also really well thought out rather then the generic 'hand in 50 of these' crap. I remember the Coldain prayer shawl started with a tiny quest and by the time it ended you were in a massive battle with friends, and having the item was a really achievement. I did try playing EQ again more recently but it's not the same, I wonder if I've got rose tinted glasses of it and playing it now might be a disappointment
Fast travel is only acceptable when it's controlled by the players. Such as Druids and Wizards in EverQuest. The only way to fast travel was to purchase a port from them. It allows for fast travel but also forces interactions. Little things like this separate a good MMO from a single player game like WoW.
Generating interaction between players isn't as easy as you think if everyone sits in towns, uses teleports, does something trivial, then teleports back to town. You have to be rewarded, have interactions, and feel like what you did was impactful. Teleports generally make this virtually impossible. Weight of actions and choices matter. I don't mean to waste time for the sake of wasting time.
In classic wow I made so many friends looking for dungeon parties! Running up and down the barrens screaming lfg 4 wailing caverns! Even RuneScape before the Grand exchange was so fun Selling lobsters like you’re a salesman rather than just to an ai person and go about your day then come back when it sells
Literally false because Mabinogi even ALL the way back when it first launched in the 2000s had fast travel in the form of moon gates. Granted they were more limited but they were a thing and Mabinogi did not lack social interactions at that time. Hell, even in current Mabinogi there are plenty of content like commercing in which you can't use fast travel for but you don't see people chatting with each other while commercing. The fact is that times have changed and the bulk of people playing MMOs are people who have full time jobs who don't have the time to or don't want to spend an hour or two walking around talking with randoms. Sure, some still do from the nostalgia clouding up their fading memories but throw them in a early 2000s MMO with none of the convince of today's MMOs and they'll probably grow bored pretty quickly.
@@triopsate3 then don't play an MMO if you don't have time 🤔 MMOs are time sinks, it's not like call of duty, or a single player game where you can play for an hour hop off and make progress at your own pace, even then you can never get good at those games with limited play and most people have fun with things they are good at not things they get violated at Take for honor for example I'm better than most so the game is fun for me, but a lot of people quit because of players like me who completely violate them and they barely do any damage and the game isn't fun because they are losing or they aren't that good I myself don't play games like mortal combat, injustice, etc. Because I'm bad at them and it irritates me when I get violated so I don't play them
@@JaeJae95 tbh I see people talking in BDO all the time on Playstation at least, I don't know how PC is. BDO has one of the most popular server chats of any MMOs I play
How about the ability to teach your mount locations like flight paths but it auto runs you to the location down roads and known good paths? And when going in-between main towns and cities you can buy a ticket for a caravan to that location at a set time and take a set amount of time to complete. it will also work while you are logged out. So buy a ticket to where you want to be when you log out, and you will find yourself there when you log back in.
To be fair, lack of fast travel was what killed New World- but it was only the straw that broke the camels back. It was the fact that people couldn't get around all of the broken content by avoiding it.
MMO game theory is a very complicated thing, all we can do is analyze what is available to us now and try to determine what exactly is bad. For instance in WoW, I do not think borrowed power systems are as bad as they are made out to be, there are much more crucial issues in the raw class design and itemization which people have forgotten about for the sake of demonizing borrowed power.
Dont forget the specs, the covenants have only class ability each, but doesn't work well with all specs in class, so only focusing only on class and neuter uniqueness in spec fantasy is destined to doom to fail
The best way to add convenience in an MMO in my opinion, is to embrace the "MMO" part and give the convenience. By this I mean make the players interact to obtain fast travel, through "taxies" or "summoning" etc. This lets you have the convenance players are looking for but not at the expense of player interactions.
I like how osrs handles teles. As you start out, you have to walk everywhere, a lot. But as you level, you gain access to teleports. Admittedly, it might be a bit much once you have all of them, but it takes a lot of time to get to that point so it makes sense
@@garysan uhh. What? You’re telling me you can unlock fairy rings, tree ports, magic teleports, and item teleports without going anywhere? Are you daft?
@@Seb_Falkor Bro have you see settled's tileman mode? he unlocked fairy rings very early on, and you can get magic up for teleports without even leaving f2p zones lol
@@garysan yea, and? Just because it’s easy for an *incredibly* experienced player doesn’t make it a bad example at all. In fact, his tileman mode is a terrible example to bring up anyway because of how much time he spent grinding to get the tiles to get it in the first place.
No fast travel is fine for the first week of a game, after that, it starts sucking REAL hard. Games just do not deliver content that fast, so you end up with the same 15 minutes of traveling to someplace JUST so you can do what you logged in to do (grind, dungeon, whatever), that gets super tedious really quick.
He has some good points, but he is completely mental on the manual looting part. For boss enemies? Sure that works, for pointless mobs that are there to feed you exp? Absolutely not! Picking up the same item for the 900th time isn't going to make the game more immersive or fun. There some really good archaic mechanics that we love, but some of them make no sense now that they have been solved and made better. The rose tinted glasses we old mmo players proudly wear sometimes have to be taken off.
I'm very skeptical of this game. The size of the world is a problem, other games have tried, the size of the world does not matter, it's what there is to do in it. Fast travel has existed in every game to lesser or greater extents... because the bigger the world gets, the more cumbersome it gets to travel just to do things. WoW had people aggressively teleporting and mounts got faster and faster, Mortal Online tried to not have it, nobody likes it, New World tried it, nobody likes it, games with fast travel however are extremely popular. Nobody liked flight points. Frequently people would flight point and just leave your PC and come back after being afk a bit to actually play the game. No different than waiting for queues. This is just a very boomer take, looking upon the past with nostalgia glasses and thinking things were BETTER, if only we didn't change we would still be amazing! But forgetting the fact that convenience is what caused the MMO explosion in popularity.
pure grinds like the felpaw are a different discussion from keeping people in the world to mingle, retain sense of world scale, and maintain pacing and exploration. i think there is a lot of benefit to the player to the latter and it is worth considering seriously.
Asmongold's love of convenience is the one thing I always disagree with him on.he loves fast travel and being able to teleport everywhere and no commitment in your character's development. I much prefer the classic WoW convenience levels. One of my biggest fears with Ashes is that Steven may change his philosophies based in Asmongold's dislike of them. DONT LISTEN TO HIM STEVEN!!
7:14 Seems like he's completely forgotten how much of a shitshow New World was after launch. There were new massive bugs and exploits every single week. One exploit would get fixed and 2 more would take its place. There were HUNDREDS of bugs and general mistakes regarding them. Remember when they finally made a PTR so we could test their patches before they went live, and start avoiding the clusterfuck that kept happening every patch day? Then they decided to push out a patch that was different than the one we'd been testing on PTR, voiding our efforts and surprise surprise - releasing a patch that broke the economy for 2+ weeks. It was completely baffling. Anyways, content was repetitive and lacking after lvl 50, and the bugs..oh god the bugs. That's why I left and considering the massive drop in players around this time I'd guess this was the main reason for it, not due to a lack of mounts. I mean, I always had enough -Azeroth- Azoth?* to fast travel whenever I needed to anyway. It was basically a pointless resource.
That looting point is actually really valid, MMOs I know that have drop mechanics usually end up having it be a big deal for the players, I mean old school RuneScape has a huge social aspect where everyone talks about getting their drop and people saying Gratz when people get a cool drop, same with ROTMG where there is a large amount of players who literally just play to get that white bag loot drop for the super tier items and uniques
7:10 No, New world had SHIT systems for traveling. No mounts, no caravans only walk speed and if you wanted to transfer shit from city to city you had to pay up. And if that same game forces you to travel back an forth with JUST WALKING then the problem never was about the fast traveling but NW being shit in general
The limited travel is ashes will be different due to the node system. Intrepid is making a world in which you can fully thrive in the area of your chosen residence and traveling to another area of the world or to different node types makes it seems as through you traveled to foreign lands. I think this will make the game far more immersive and bring a unique economy to the game. This also allows the the system of caravans and ships to be relevant. Im looking forward to it.
IMO the next huge MMO is only gonna come when some studio discovers how to get teenagers and young adults to play again. MMO as a genre peaked when the avg age was like 21, and is dead now when the avg age is 33 and the player base is still shrinking, this is coming from a 22 year old who has mained mmo's since I was 9
It has to be fun to travel, an adventure in it self. As soon as the players get the feeling that they doing unnecessary things just to get something, it’s garbage. There are players who can produce their own fun with everything, but this shouldn’t be the design plan.
I'm not playing MMOs so that I can run for 15 boring minutes to go get anything done. I'm playing MMOs for... 1. The experience of beating bosses and doing content with large (8+) groups of players. 2. Roleplaying and community social activities. What other games let you do those two things? Normal, intelligent people can sometimes feel the same way, and calling them retarded means he's just wrong. OSRS allows you to unlock more and more fast travel options as your account progresses, but tries to make you journey or quest towards unlocking those options.
i dont mind no fast travel, bdo didnt have it but as long as the game has mounts (that are relatively easy to get) it will be fine, especially needed is autopath for mounts and travel tho i think, but if there is no readily availible mounts it will get really annoying
I like earned and limited fast travels to some extent. Let's take Torchlight II for example. You are able to teleport from a waypoint to another (that connect cities to cities) but you have to discover them first before being able to use it; you have to earn it. You can also use teleportation scroll or spell to teleport from anywhere in the world to a already visited waypoint, then you can go back to the portal that you created using that TP scroll/spell to go back hunting after a resupply/banking in the town. Another game that I like when handling fast travel is Minecraft. There are lots of mode of transportation that enable you to move fast such as elytra, horses, or even boat on ice. You can also use nether portal, which make travelling consumes even shorter time. All of these you have to earn first: getting a horse, building the ice road, beating the ender dragon to go to the end city to find the elytra. These make fast travel really rewarding because you have to earn it.
The running around wasn't the end of the world in new world, but It definitely did hurt. What killed the game for me was the gear score grind at the end game, and server transfers. We had an entire guild from another faction transfer that has exploited a glitch to duplicate gear. Half of them got banned after about two months of ruining the economy and claiming tons of territory because they had the best gear in the game. Which was made worse by the fact that they fucked up resilience so it made damage reduction in PVP far more than it was supposed to be. All that said, I genuinely think Asmon has Really good takes on gaming and an understanding of the audience as well as what you need to do to cater to the larger audience and keep them around rather than just having the few insanely hardcore gamers
@@TherealRTZ973 Oh trying to make a (correct) distinction without a difference, I see. The fact that I said "max level" and not "played to 60" changes nothing.
I love how he just said "Genshin Impact is successful and it's play to win witha straight face", although it's wrong but sure, it's asmongold community anyways, can't argue even what he said is wrong really.
its so funny to see people wondering why they cant feel fulfilled playing wow and other mmo's, it has nothing to do with the game its because you 30 spending 20+ hours a week farming fake status and money instead of doing it IRL
what killed New World was the fact that every week saw a new game breaking bug or exploit that ruined PVP, the devs often two steps back for each step forward, and the botched release with the massive queues. throw in the good old "wealth transferrs are disabled" fun for two weeks to ruin all the cities, taxes, and auctionhouses, and the fact that your TP resource was used for everything else as well, and you have a better picture for why New World died.
I think the demographics for mmorpgs has changed as well. In their early days, the demo was younger, with more free time. Now the demo has aged with the game, has full time jobs, family life, as well as a younger demographic that has the time. So convenience can help strike a balance between those two groups, but sometimes it goes to far.
When I see someone complaining about the grind, it's usually the zoomer who's grown up with mobile phone as a nanny, with zero patience. Personally, as a working adult I have more free time than ever before. No school homework, no nagging parents demanding to do menial housework way more often than is actually necessary. Just 9-5 job and all the rest of the time free to play games.
What happened in New World wasn't a fast travel problem...it was bad quest locations. Why did we ever need to run all the way across the map and have to return? Seriously, if a quest makes you cross the map, the hand in should be over there too...as well as the next quest in the chain.
This dude Narc has some of the most boomer takes on MMOs I've ever seen. MMO's aren't Everquest anymore. It's time to get with it, or gtfo. It's that simple. This man said "clicking on the individual bodies represents picking the loot up with your hands". LOL
No fast travel is never ok, its fine if you first need to travel somewhere normally before you can use it but once you did it 5-10 times you just cant be bothered anymore and would rather just skip that part. The underlying idea is fine and all, but once you did it enough times it would just become a chore. And who wants feel like they have to do chores when they play a videogame.
I have hated fast travel and queuing for things in MMORPGs since the very beginning. As soon as these mechanics became the norm, people stopped interacting on a personal level nearly as much. MMOS use to create constant friend groups, so much so that people did not know who to hang out with. Now its just click a button and ignore everyone else for the most part. Been loving Ashes alpha, its so fun running around questing and having the random encounters with people and world events. New world was like this in the beginning when fast travel was expensive af. Now the world is dead in between towns, except for people leveling sigh.....
@@omarcomming722 Nah when I played classic as a young teen, it was only when I could save up enough $$ to go play at the local LAN center. I spent most of my MMO teen days walking to a local library to play original Runescape. I only got my rogue to level 58 right as BC came out. Then did not get to properly play again till Wraith. I am not a big fan of classic either, it was just a fun experience for its time. I just hate seeing supposed multiplayer MMOs adopt mechanics that turn them into basically No man sky Multiplayer games. Yeah you get to see people running around here and there but nothing ever really happens.
@@justsomeguywithoutaguy4154 Because the idea of what an MMORPG is has changed. 99.9% of people who bought and played WoW Vanilla had no idea of what "content" was or what a raid or instance were for that matter. They were sold the idea of a fantasy world to explore and they did so organically. The ideal of what an MMO would be at the time was more like the "metaverse", now it's a Skinner Box. The problem being that the industry has already chased off any general audience and the base of players that all MMO devs are competing for don't want out of the Skinner Box and rate MMOs on which one is the best Skinner Box. Which is literally what FF14 fans advertise as the upside of their favorite game over competing brands. It's better at doing things that MMOs probably never should have been doing in the first place which repulse psychologically normal people.
@@justsomeguywithoutaguy4154 I'm not giving my current opinion on the ideal but my perception of such in the 90s and early aughts when MMORPGs were new prospective players, and the expressed goals of developers at that time. As for the rest it's just typical antisocial drivel. Most people who don't want a multiplayer experience actually just play single-player games. No one can "force" you to do anything in an MMO because you can simply not play it.
The lack of convenience is why vanilla was soo good, the grind to 60 allowed the game to be soo fun compared to the 10hour level jump we see now during expansions. Even at level 35 in vanilla you felt like a teenager, you knew how to get around and old enough for some responsibility, you were not quite an adult like level 60 but you weren’t an infant like level 25 and below either. The grind to end game was the game
final fantasy is 110% not end game only; level boost and story skip are there so people didnt have to do it again on alts for their glams because its barbie doll simulator. Thats why its there. Not because end game. The story is the main game, then after that its all barbie doll simulator and making your catgirl look good and not spend $200 on fantasia over 5 months like some people i know have because they cant decide between viera or miqo
I miss the Plane of Knowledge from EverQuest. They had it right with the transport to different regions and then needing to physically travel to the different places within the region. On the topic of EQ, I also really miss the group based gameplay. It's was nearly impossible to do anything by yourself in EQ, even just grinding levels you needed a group, there were very few classes and zones that solo play was possible.
This game has 1 requirement that really worries me. This game needs a massive population to work as intended, and open world pvp could really hurt that if people are corpse camping casuals in early questing zones.
Why theres just new MMORPG which wanna looks realistic? I personaly love how WoW looks like, its perfect grafic for games like that.. its just like fairytale
Many ppl like fast travel because it makes it easy to go to the best spot for everything. By making some spots too far away, you may have player activity more spread around. This will make non-instanced content less overloaded, Thus allowing more ppl pr server.
@@arohk4415 i guess that comes down to how the code handles zones and players. Back in the day before seamless zoning it was easy for players to know what server was handling their action. Now microservice architecture hides that information, so Im guessing that the client is the bottleneck. In that case, you are right. 🙂
ashes husbandry system lets you breed creatures and potential mounts, if you can alter the speed stat on these mounts it would make alooooooot of money
Ashes of Creation is still a forced PvP game that only a minority of people will play. Doesn't matter how many videos you put out to make PvE players think that AoC is going to be the savior of MMOs when it's proven not to be already three times by now.
The hype train already annoyed me. The open world forced PvP has killed it for me, before it is anywhere near its destination. (If it ever gets there.) No, I don't want to play a game where I have to live on edge all the time. Not my idea of a fun time.
I think that UO private shards handled this better then most games, players could work up their mage skill and use recall runes to recall to a marked location, they could also open a "moon gate" to the marked locations on runes.. makes some builds stupid popular for their ability to save people time getting places....
Honestly to date the best system imo. It felt great to have the freedom of exploring the world and saving the location you found cool to a rune or book. Only other game I have seen do this is modern Lineage 2 with cash shop.
That’s how I feel with the wow boosts in wrath I just started fresh because I like to learn and feel my class out that way rather than boosting and getting all these abilities at once. Sometimes faster isn’t always better.
Level boosting is a symptom of/reaction to vertical progression games where the level cap is raised every 2 years. Look at Runescape, no need for a level boost, because you level once and never have to again.
Trent Walters : "Generating interaction between players isn't as easy as you think if everyone sits in towns, uses teleports, does something trivial, then teleports back to town. You have to be rewarded, have interactions, and feel like what you did was impactful. Teleports generally make this virtually impossible. Weight of actions and choices matter. I don't mean to waste time for the sake of wasting time." THIS
ok but what about the people that quit because of the time wasting, or people that have less time to play so they dont even attempt to do something because they dont have time or people, or people that would want to do something but its not actually worth the time investment to do it. Yeah MMO's are hard to make but choosing the easy way to do thing wont solve any of the problems it generates and as every choice in game design there are pros and cons to it.
Na bruh give me convenience. Almost finished completing Skyscale collection in gw2 and if you’ve done it pre-update then you know how much quicker it is for the new players
Not an MMO, but Morrowind had great fast travel. The way you would travel actually made sense in a fantasy world. Teleport spells or riding a giant creature from city to city. The “click button to go anywhere” form of fast travel is just so boring. Ashes will still have many forms of traversing the world, but they will all make sense from a lore and player perspective. There will be no one click to get anywhere, and I’m all for it.
Grind is the issue, MMOS should have no level grind, levels are stupid. Why cant someone create FortNite/overwatch/etc style mixed with a MMO. The minute you log in, thats as powerful as your character will ever be. The game is finding different items, weapons, building communities and cities to fight over in a persistent world.
Fast travel makes any open world MMO feel instanced and small. It's a very very bad idea if you want to convey any sort of world scale and wonder in a videogame.
I liked approach to traveling in Albion Online. You could go by foot around using only safe zones, you could make a shortcut through the middle, where there was open full-loot pvp, or go through the roads which was randomly generated network of portals, also with open full-loot pvp (but with limited number of people inside). You could also fast travel around the cities, but the cost scaled with your weight to the degree, that using it any other way than naked basically defeated the point.
it's interesting how warthunder and WoX fall under that premise of artificial inconvenience, but don't really get a lot of acknowledgment outside of the communities that play it. maybe it's because of lack of popularity, or their models are slowly losing them players.
The amount of copium is real, people thinking that running a round in the world slowly everywhere is fun content.. classic wow imo did it best, its not that you cant teleport but they tie it back with the theme of mage and portals to teleport. having more classes be able to access or have teleport stones would be an immersive way to do it, following whatever theoretical thing that sounds good is what made new world and wildstar fail
What killed MMOs is the amount of absolutely selfish and greedy people there are. Grown adults acting so petty over pixels. Disgusting people. I unironically miss the days when people who played games were nerdy dorks and playing games was 'fringe.' Everyone's so connected now, you'll get eaten alive if you're not in a social group.
if level boost are ok, why have levels? Devs waste way way too much of their design time for the leveling content which people just fly through, so why have it at all?
Mortal Online 2 is also a MMO using unreal engine with a big world with no loadingscreens using nodes, it only works if everyone spreads out evenly, if one city becomes too popular it focuses all the energy on that node and it laggs the entire world. This is designed with a "I HOPE THEY DONT GO TO THE SAME PLACE" plan
I grinded a lot in these games too, like for Sun sword in GW2 that take at the time a at least 4-5 months to get. I can tell you now, my times taking a boat from Darkshore across to the Swamps, then running along the road to get to Stormwind was so much fun.
the problem is that the ppl like asmon who has the time to invest are the messure for grinds because those are the players who play a lot, Figure stuff out ,are Done with a grind fester ,are involved in forums ect the grind is Set to thier timeinvestment and there come the normal players and nope out
18:00 player agency on how to move around is huge and partly why I love the monk class or demon hunter to be able to roll from place to place or flying serpent kick off a cliff into a glider and often use these abilities to get from one location or another without a mount often faster then taking the 5 seconds to get on a mount especially if the destination is pretty close. That agency to traverse the world makes it fun and why I have high hopes for dragon riding.
Increasing wilderness survival elements to require strategy and teamwork. Otherwise it's just a social solo arcade style game racing to the highest scores to show off with others.
Dude i keep repeating some of these same points. Everyone has their horse blinders on thinking AOC is going to be the next best thing since sliced bread. While i agree, in theory, it sounds amazing. In practice, this game is going to have to change some of the biggest design elements if its going to retain 50% of its player base over 9 months. Fast travel will have to be a thing, open world PVP is going to have to get modified. (not removed but just changed) Losing resources for absolutely no reason at all other than being griefed. Those are just a few examples of things that will have to get changed or it will absolutely kill the game 100% guaranteed without a doubt.
I like overworld fast travel systems like flightmasters and boats, etc. I think my perfect amount would be summoning, flight masters + whistle and a good amount of boats/ airships
Yet every sijngle successful rpg and mmo has had: grind for the sake of grind is found in the best games, because when you take most of the game to a certian level, you have to give cooldown / breather periods. Most of them take that too far imo, but I understand the need, and feel the lack in many games.
Running to the portal in Silvermoon to get to the Undercity to take a Zepplin to Orgrimar is one of my favourite memories and I remember the exact route till today even though I haven't played in years.
The problem with selling convenience is that it makes the company financially incentivized to make the game as inconvenient as possible if you don't pay. Instead of making the best game they can to sell copies, they make the most tantalizing game they can, then throw paywall after paywall in front of you.
Auto loot everything and let you set the time interval in seconds. So you still get the light beams for a few seconds (you can change the options between 1-5 seconds it sits on floor) then you get to anticipate opening inventory and checking out stats. Best of both worlds.
“I don’t think there should be a grind in a game you have to do for the sake of doing it” welcome to Old School RuneScape!
Lmao.
Grind for sake of grind sounds like destiny 2 a season lasts 100 days but you can do all the story stuff for the season in an hour if you wait for it to all unlock.
It's padded out with shitty timegating progress in everyway
Max Capes are like the pinnacle of this
tbh grinding in osrs feel rewarding even more when you are a ironman you get a dopamine kick getting the drop or the level you wanted
How many hours for a 6 pixel party hat.
"MMO's disrespect us and therefore in turn players do the same" So true what a profound takeaway that I had never thought of quite like that. Brilliant video' as always!
Profound my ass, he sayin people respected TBC and WOTLK, well now we have an example of what happens when you bring them up live again - there is no respect, only spreadsheet optimisation.
I think no fast travel is okay as long as travel is part of the progression of the game. For example mounts are a massive feel good progression milestone in classic WoW. The difference in NW was there was no progression for travel.
@@supersonicgamerguru The days of classic of waking up in the morning and using a gryphon for 5 mins while you get a coffee and chill was so underrated. Classic wow had a great feeling. Every game now is a speedrun. You must be at max efficiency to have fun. That means teleporting and fast travelling, using jumps when walking when its faster etc. Classic allowed people to enjoy the game imo. Every game i play now if you take a break its like you're wasting time. Classic had that feel as to just enjoy the journey
@@supersonicgamerguru Did u ever consider this isnt the type of game to repeatedly send u from point A to B. I know its hard to imagine a good MMO but dont rule something out as bad until uve seen how its implemented.
@@maxrusty3596 Litteraly any game that wastes your time by going to A and B will bleed players, doesnt mean it will be bad or good, but in the end Ashes will be a niche game kind of like EvE online etc.
@@leonc4653 Having something that mimics reality only makes the game seem larger than it is and more immersive. Like the world can be the biggest world in any video game, but not exploring the world or having any type of travel is just boring. Like retail wow dungeon finder is so dog shit. It ruins interactions in the world. Back then you had to find people to go in with you now its all just boring and makes the game less playable for me. it's like you might as well play with ai's
The Qeynos to Freeport run was a whole evening of travel but so rewarding.
Asmon be like “Nobody grinds harder than me” proceeds to be funneled all gear and gold to make it faster and easier.
As they say ,thers no rules in love and war. Did he got the gold? Yep
@@lynxk9372 it's that mindset that has this world fucked up.
@@lynxk9372 did he get the gold? yes, did he grind? no
@@lynxk9372 terrible quote
@@Vihara2 You literally just spend gold to level in NW via the trade post quests
Limited fast travel as long as it makes sense. Airships, mounts and ships connecting major ports like Archeage will help. I also like the idea of upgrading ships and mounts to increase speed or speed buffs by using potions, food or magic saddles on mounts maybe. My issue is being able to get anywhere on the map at the snap of a finger.
Just like almost everything, balance is imortant. Having to walk everywhere is bad but being able to teleport everywhere is also bad. However a balance of things is always hard to achieve since every human has different values to their time consumption
your mount should have a rotation to go faster thatd be cool
depends, if you have already been there and there is a waypoint, fast travel, new location walk or horse. I don't want to walk to a location I have been to 100s of times every time a start the game.
I have yet to play a game where fast travelling would have made it worse, quite the opposite. In BDO for an example, it is just huge waste of time to watch your horse run to the other end of the world. Also in WoW I hate that I cannot just choose from a list where to go, I need to google everytime how to get where, which is bullshit.
If I had to walk all over in FF, that would also be horrible, imagine having a house in Limsa and then you had to go buy some tome gear from Radz-At-Han, then to the Gold Saucer in Thanalan and after that maybe you would like to do some raiding and again walk to the Elpis, yeah no thanks.
Every major place should be teleporable in an mmo.
Fast travel take nothing away from the game, you can still walk if you don't like it, it is not like you are forced to use it.
The main reason theu don't want to allow fast travel is the caravan system for transporting goods. I think what they'll end up doing in the end is allowing limited fast travel but in order to do so you can't have any tradable goods in your inventory. This would keep theor vision of an area based economy in tacked but allow people to meet up with friends in a somewhat convenient way
2:45 “Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.” - Soren Johnson, co-designer for Civilization IV.
True, but then "Many" is a vague denomination. "Many people are clinically obese. Many people are not clinically obese" - both are true.
There are also "Many players that don't especially want to optimize, but feel that they would be disadvantaged if they don't, so they act on optimization advice from others".
I really like that Ashes won't show DPS metrics, it makes it more difficult to quantify and compare straight facts. Optimization will still occur, but it will be based on players devising Empirical Metrics. Eg. Measuring how quickly someone can dispatch ten specific mobs within a specific area. The result is blurred due to *circumstances*, which is a big improvement on games/players that kick other players based on DPS statistics.
I think the problem is that people don't optimize the fun out of the game but that they look up how to solve the puzzle
@@Mailb0x1 Same thing. Looking it up means you don't have to figure it out yourself. It is optimal.
@@mcmackmuckm8180 Many may be vague in the quantity, but it states its existence. And the second sentence is not vague at all.
I agree that the lack of add-ons is a good thing, as long as they make the UI as customizable as they claim they will.
@@thearcanian5921 Making a optimal play and figure it out is very rewarding. having the answer given to you is not the same thing. did you misread what I said?
When you carve or gather super rare items in MonHun World your character actually shows it off or has an altered animation. I like that a lot and hope to see similar stuff in other games
I think players will stabilish in a region and travel will be the adventure. EvE is like that, people live in a region where they farm materials, kills npcs and make bases. Then, when they want pvp or other pve action they do together.
In Ashes you will not need to go around the map for leveling, you will have everything needed to level and play close to your chosen node.
@@HaunterV no, it may happen but its not what i said.
People will be close whatever node or region they feel its best for their needs. Theres no need to constant travel like other mmos and when they(whatever number) want travel for explorarion, economy and loot, after that they will come back to their place.
I see people moving very little when nodes reach lvl 5+.
Good point.
Also if you are trying to make a game where players are invested in building up and defending their own corner of the world while allowing them to attack caravans or even player run settlements then instant fast travel causes another issue.
Being able to warp around the world effectively allows large guilds to mass all their forces in one place at the drop of a hat allowing them to slam raid smaller guilds territory and win by sheer numbers and then return just as quickly to defend their own resources.
Limiting fast travel means that it takes a significant amount of time moving bodies around which means that any guild trying to mass up for a zerg rush risks weakening their own regions for a significant amount of time due to travel time, making instant slam raids impossible and massed raids a real risk.
Like real life. Most people stay where they're born.
What's really cool is if they can incentivise and reward people who want to travel.
@@HaunterV they can always put interesting and rare resources/gear on the fringes
@@HaunterV the way this is solved in Eve Online is that fringe zones have higher risk and are further away, but they offer much better rewards for almost every activity.
This makes it so coalitions of players are fighting to control the fringe zones, while most players are in the safer central zones where the trade hubs are. I image that this way of balancing zones could exist in Ashes of Creation.
For example old wow. You get to a flight master and get the point discovered to then "fast travel". So the journey needed preserves and then next time you dont have to. You earned it. It wssnt given out to you. The same can apply to some portal to a city/dungeon/raid/party etc. Then it's rewarding and making sense in both ways (ease of use and actually using the world to the advantage anx not having all instanced)
I don't like teleporting to non instances either. But I'll take a system like the Dragon riding, alongside a flight path for afk travel, due to the agency it gives you - transforms travel into gameplay.
Yeah. Even the way heirloom items worked for alts seemed okay, (expect in pvp if I recall)
@@dmt472 Aka you want Flight Paths from wow... which only serve as a waste of time. in a map like this going one side to the other would take 3 hours, not even a joke. Its a bad idea. Just let people teleport once they've been there once.
I remember taking newer people to flight paths for gold on two player mounts like that rocket when it was introduced got a few thousand gold doing that so people did skip some of that journey that way. But I agree wow did it right when I came to travel.
Hell yeah. That first run from the starting area to a major city was a rite of passage back in the day. That's the kind of stuff I miss. Having to plan out a two day free period to attempt to complete an endgame raid in EQ because you know your in for a ten hour fight and that's after you finally managed to get to the raid boss with your 80 person raid.
I think forcing players through areas before allowing fast travel makes sense. Like you have to hit a certain point before you can travel around quickly. This allows players to both experience the world but then not get burnt out running to xyz area for the 50th time.
Ragnarok online solved this 20 years ago, by having a class making portals to places you have saved on, So you only have to go there once.
That only makes sense for a themepark MMO. Ashes is a Sandpark MMO, and you could play your entire gameplay career on a server for years without ever having to move through more then a few zones. Sure, you can travel the map. But you don't have to. You will not be forced to. THAT is the biggest difference. Travel time matters for trade and war logistics, and it is not a massive burden on players who won't deal with that, due to the limited scope of mandatory gameplay. Only those who choose to travel will interact with that massive distance and no fast travel.
Asheron's Call used this model precisely and it had a massive world.
Ashes of creation fixes biggest problem of MMO by not being released. No release no chance for people to quit!
A big part of the problem with new world was exactly what Asmon said. I hated running across the map to complete a single quest. If I was doing 25 quests in the area across the map and spent the time doing all of them, it would feel more worth it to return and get that big payout. Things were just to sparse and on top of it, it took forever to get anywhere.
What if there was still quite some traveltime, but you could spend an hour or two solving alot of quests once you arrived? Or for example travelling to a spot with eeeexcellent exp from grinding and maybe parking the toon there for days?
It only makes sense that travelling should not be 90% of the playtime, but I think that is just poor implementation in New World. Noone wants to spend 10 minutes running then kill 5 monsters and then run back. But that doesnt mean that teleporting and fasttravel is the only solution.
@@Myndi78 that's exactly what I mean. Just make that travel meaningful
I have a very good example.
In DaoC there was both PvE zones and RvR zones. There was also monsters in the RvR zones and they yielded very good exp and gear that was valuable to salvage for materials. So alot of highlevel (but not maxed out) people would go just ouside their safe 'border-keeps' to kill monsters, and those people were prime to hunt for solo stealthers and small raidingparties. But stealthers would have to either run all the way there risking to run into zergs, groups or other stealthergankers OR they would have to stealth all the way there wich was atleast 30-40 mins in slowmotion running (fml!). The prize for going there was very worth it, but the journey was a nightmare and sometimes you would get there and the place was empty!
It could be very frustrating, but that makes the big moments and progress shine that much brighter imo!
I really liked that type of gameplay, including when you would get invited to some group and you have to think about if the journey is worth it and what other options is available, instead of it being "sure lets do that whatever" autopilot all the time. I would prefer if they gave some class a very powerfull group runspeed buff instead of teleport tbh and maybe just let people port between capital cities from an npc.
If there is teleports in the game then even if they are rare, there will just be people setting up alts to gain money and make teleports available everywhere.
That's just bad game design. Quest hubs are an obvious system that has been widely successful to keep pacing nad questing interesting and less tedious. If quests and their objectives were clustered then lack of fast travel is less punishing. Having wide spread quest/objectives AND no fast travel options is just absurd.
What others said. It is bad game design not lack of fast travel that contributed to your problem. Getting lost in New World was some of the most fun I had in the game. When there are interesting things happening in the world, the travel doesn’t feel inconvenient. But quest hubs sprawled out arbitrarily and a questline that forced you to drain your recalls and azoth made questing a nightmare. I didn’t quit, but I also didn’t quest. I just went exploring and did the quests I had to to unlock dungeons.
Not having fast travel only works if you don't have to travel constantly across the world and you can stay in one place for a good amount of time. EverQuest as odd as it sounds, is actually a good comp for this, as once you found a zone you wanted to hunt in, you would stay there for days, if not weeks grinding. (I realize it did have fast travel)
Classic vanilla did a really great job with the travel. Getting a new flight path, especially a far one, was super satisfying (aka getting Gadgetzan when you're alliance). And the flight time keeps the world feeling big while still being relatively fast once you've unlocked it. A very great balance for that style of game IMO
I think WoW is still better than most other MMOs with regard to that. When leveling right now, you still have to use flight paths or take zeppelins or w/e and that makes the world feel real. Or at least more real and big than it does in games like FF where you can just...select your destination out of a menu and teleport there with no friction whatsoever. Sure theres a lot more teleportation now and the end game experience can be done from a hub, but its still way more actual traveling than other big mmos out there and I prefer that feel.
Yep, its the fastest way to travel without a CD, but your character is still physically travelling. You get a nice tour of the area or even places youve not yet reached. Not sure why more MMOs dont do this
Yeah, flight paths are the best compromise, I think. In Final Fantasy I never got any sense of the shape of the world because I always just teleported from place to place.
Then you play a mage, get used to teleporting and don't want to play any other class.
I wonder how many people realize the flight paths were ripped off from Dark Age of Camelot like 99% of classic wow.
Game developer and CEO of a small gaming studio here.
I would love to have you as an advisor to our first game if you're interested. We are currently in the alpha testing phases.
Will reach out via other means, just watching this video, as I have many of yours, and realized you'd be a real asset to have poke holes in our game/gameloop.
Financial analyst, behaviorial research scientist with a PhD in hyperoptimizing deep neural networks here. You need to spend money on building a consumer throughput pipeline and maximize ctr at all costs no matter what the objective is. That's the only thing you need. Nothing else. They're all a waste of capital and time.
"every time someone fast travels, an environmental designer dies"
Yeah, this is why I like New World; I get to discover the world more than in other mmorpgs due to the concept of gathering ressources to craft. I can't wait for mounts, though, if only to get to the 3km quests in world with a mount instead of porting to it with Azoth. It's more immersive for me.
@@AnonningAnon Yeah, there have to be cool movement options, otherwise it sucks, especially with New Worlds types of quests
I really loved the dynamics in EQ. basically certain classes got access to speed buffs (ex. Druid casing Spirit of Wolf). Caused players to interact and ask for buffs and the like.
There were no mounts i believe, then even when they were there it was still just a "buff"
Yeah first time I met a bard in EQ I was like wtf this is fast boy. Spirit of cheetah was nice. A bard with that speed song was insane
I absolutely loved EQ as a kid. The atmosphere was fantastic and guild raids were always a good community effort. The quests were also really well thought out rather then the generic 'hand in 50 of these' crap. I remember the Coldain prayer shawl started with a tiny quest and by the time it ended you were in a massive battle with friends, and having the item was a really achievement. I did try playing EQ again more recently but it's not the same, I wonder if I've got rose tinted glasses of it and playing it now might be a disappointment
Fast travel is only acceptable when it's controlled by the players. Such as Druids and Wizards in EverQuest. The only way to fast travel was to purchase a port from them. It allows for fast travel but also forces interactions. Little things like this separate a good MMO from a single player game like WoW.
Generating interaction between players isn't as easy as you think if everyone sits in towns, uses teleports, does something trivial, then teleports back to town. You have to be rewarded, have interactions, and feel like what you did was impactful. Teleports generally make this virtually impossible. Weight of actions and choices matter. I don't mean to waste time for the sake of wasting time.
In classic wow I made so many friends looking for dungeon parties! Running up and down the barrens screaming lfg 4 wailing caverns!
Even RuneScape before the Grand exchange was so fun
Selling lobsters like you’re a salesman rather than just to an ai person and go about your day then come back when it sells
Literally false because Mabinogi even ALL the way back when it first launched in the 2000s had fast travel in the form of moon gates. Granted they were more limited but they were a thing and Mabinogi did not lack social interactions at that time.
Hell, even in current Mabinogi there are plenty of content like commercing in which you can't use fast travel for but you don't see people chatting with each other while commercing. The fact is that times have changed and the bulk of people playing MMOs are people who have full time jobs who don't have the time to or don't want to spend an hour or two walking around talking with randoms. Sure, some still do from the nostalgia clouding up their fading memories but throw them in a early 2000s MMO with none of the convince of today's MMOs and they'll probably grow bored pretty quickly.
BDO doesnt really have teleporting and that did nothing for player interaction either.
@@triopsate3 then don't play an MMO if you don't have time 🤔 MMOs are time sinks, it's not like call of duty, or a single player game where you can play for an hour hop off and make progress at your own pace, even then you can never get good at those games with limited play and most people have fun with things they are good at not things they get violated at
Take for honor for example I'm better than most so the game is fun for me, but a lot of people quit because of players like me who completely violate them and they barely do any damage and the game isn't fun because they are losing or they aren't that good
I myself don't play games like mortal combat, injustice, etc. Because I'm bad at them and it irritates me when I get violated so I don't play them
@@JaeJae95 tbh I see people talking in BDO all the time on Playstation at least, I don't know how PC is. BDO has one of the most popular server chats of any MMOs I play
WoWs heirloom system was perfect. You had to play the game to a certain level to obtain the means to boost alts
How about the ability to teach your mount locations like flight paths but it auto runs you to the location down roads and known good paths?
And when going in-between main towns and cities you can buy a ticket for a caravan to that location at a set time and take a set amount of time to complete. it will also work while you are logged out. So buy a ticket to where you want to be when you log out, and you will find yourself there when you log back in.
They actually have 'caravan' feature in BDO. It's ok, but you rarely use it for your main character. Auto-run is a must though.
Yeah but see auto pathing is a convenience feature of modern mmo's as well.
To be fair, lack of fast travel was what killed New World-
but it was only the straw that broke the camels back.
It was the fact that people couldn't get around all of the broken content by avoiding it.
MMO game theory is a very complicated thing, all we can do is analyze what is available to us now and try to determine what exactly is bad. For instance in WoW, I do not think borrowed power systems are as bad as they are made out to be, there are much more crucial issues in the raw class design and itemization which people have forgotten about for the sake of demonizing borrowed power.
Dont forget the specs, the covenants have only class ability each, but doesn't work well with all specs in class, so only focusing only on class and neuter uniqueness in spec fantasy is destined to doom to fail
The best way to add convenience in an MMO in my opinion, is to embrace the "MMO" part and give the convenience. By this I mean make the players interact to obtain fast travel, through "taxies" or "summoning" etc. This lets you have the convenance players are looking for but not at the expense of player interactions.
I like how osrs handles teles. As you start out, you have to walk everywhere, a lot. But as you level, you gain access to teleports. Admittedly, it might be a bit much once you have all of them, but it takes a lot of time to get to that point so it makes sense
Dark souls 1 is like that too
You can gain access to most teleports without walking anywhere in osrs lol, bad example
@@garysan uhh. What? You’re telling me you can unlock fairy rings, tree ports, magic teleports, and item teleports without going anywhere? Are you daft?
@@Seb_Falkor Bro have you see settled's tileman mode? he unlocked fairy rings very early on, and you can get magic up for teleports without even leaving f2p zones lol
@@garysan yea, and? Just because it’s easy for an *incredibly* experienced player doesn’t make it a bad example at all. In fact, his tileman mode is a terrible example to bring up anyway because of how much time he spent grinding to get the tiles to get it in the first place.
No fast travel is fine for the first week of a game, after that, it starts sucking REAL hard. Games just do not deliver content that fast, so you end up with the same 15 minutes of traveling to someplace JUST so you can do what you logged in to do (grind, dungeon, whatever), that gets super tedious really quick.
Give me fast travel, reduce leveling time. GET ME MOVING.
He has some good points, but he is completely mental on the manual looting part. For boss enemies? Sure that works, for pointless mobs that are there to feed you exp? Absolutely not! Picking up the same item for the 900th time isn't going to make the game more immersive or fun. There some really good archaic mechanics that we love, but some of them make no sense now that they have been solved and made better. The rose tinted glasses we old mmo players proudly wear sometimes have to be taken off.
Osrs players trying to maximize the cognitive dissonance per hour spent "playing" a "game" with their "friends"
But grinding that is fun is also subjective. some people like grinding some people don't
I'm very skeptical of this game. The size of the world is a problem, other games have tried, the size of the world does not matter, it's what there is to do in it. Fast travel has existed in every game to lesser or greater extents... because the bigger the world gets, the more cumbersome it gets to travel just to do things. WoW had people aggressively teleporting and mounts got faster and faster, Mortal Online tried to not have it, nobody likes it, New World tried it, nobody likes it, games with fast travel however are extremely popular. Nobody liked flight points. Frequently people would flight point and just leave your PC and come back after being afk a bit to actually play the game. No different than waiting for queues.
This is just a very boomer take, looking upon the past with nostalgia glasses and thinking things were BETTER, if only we didn't change we would still be amazing! But forgetting the fact that convenience is what caused the MMO explosion in popularity.
Traveling becomes tedious when the world is not engaging. When point B is more engaging than traveling to point B, the problem arises.
pure grinds like the felpaw are a different discussion from keeping people in the world to mingle, retain sense of world scale, and maintain pacing and exploration. i think there is a lot of benefit to the player to the latter and it is worth considering seriously.
These games come out with so much hype for an imagined feeling they are going to provide that they are mostly doomed before they ever even release.
Asmongold's love of convenience is the one thing I always disagree with him on.he loves fast travel and being able to teleport everywhere and no commitment in your character's development. I much prefer the classic WoW convenience levels.
One of my biggest fears with Ashes is that Steven may change his philosophies based in Asmongold's dislike of them. DONT LISTEN TO HIM STEVEN!!
It will fail either way
7:14 Seems like he's completely forgotten how much of a shitshow New World was after launch. There were new massive bugs and exploits every single week. One exploit would get fixed and 2 more would take its place. There were HUNDREDS of bugs and general mistakes regarding them. Remember when they finally made a PTR so we could test their patches before they went live, and start avoiding the clusterfuck that kept happening every patch day? Then they decided to push out a patch that was different than the one we'd been testing on PTR, voiding our efforts and surprise surprise - releasing a patch that broke the economy for 2+ weeks. It was completely baffling.
Anyways, content was repetitive and lacking after lvl 50, and the bugs..oh god the bugs. That's why I left and considering the massive drop in players around this time I'd guess this was the main reason for it, not due to a lack of mounts. I mean, I always had enough -Azeroth- Azoth?* to fast travel whenever I needed to anyway. It was basically a pointless resource.
That looting point is actually really valid, MMOs I know that have drop mechanics usually end up having it be a big deal for the players, I mean old school RuneScape has a huge social aspect where everyone talks about getting their drop and people saying Gratz when people get a cool drop, same with ROTMG where there is a large amount of players who literally just play to get that white bag loot drop for the super tier items and uniques
7:10 No, New world had SHIT systems for traveling. No mounts, no caravans only walk speed and if you wanted to transfer shit from city to city you had to pay up.
And if that same game forces you to travel back an forth with JUST WALKING then the problem never was about the fast traveling but NW being shit in general
The limited travel is ashes will be different due to the node system. Intrepid is making a world in which you can fully thrive in the area of your chosen residence and traveling to another area of the world or to different node types makes it seems as through you traveled to foreign lands. I think this will make the game far more immersive and bring a unique economy to the game. This also allows the the system of caravans and ships to be relevant. Im looking forward to it.
IMO the next huge MMO is only gonna come when some studio discovers how to get teenagers and young adults to play again. MMO as a genre peaked when the avg age was like 21, and is dead now when the avg age is 33 and the player base is still shrinking, this is coming from a 22 year old who has mained mmo's since I was 9
oh and, AOC is not gonna be it
It has to be fun to travel, an adventure in it self. As soon as the players get the feeling that they doing unnecessary things just to get something, it’s garbage. There are players who can produce their own fun with everything, but this shouldn’t be the design plan.
I'm not playing MMOs so that I can run for 15 boring minutes to go get anything done.
I'm playing MMOs for...
1. The experience of beating bosses and doing content with large (8+) groups of players.
2. Roleplaying and community social activities.
What other games let you do those two things?
Normal, intelligent people can sometimes feel the same way, and calling them retarded means he's just wrong.
OSRS allows you to unlock more and more fast travel options as your account progresses, but tries to make you journey or quest towards unlocking those options.
OSRS is great, its perfect for the game it is. but it is a specific niche for sure.
i dont mind no fast travel, bdo didnt have it but as long as the game has mounts (that are relatively easy to get) it will be fine, especially needed is autopath for mounts and travel tho i think, but if there is no readily availible mounts it will get really annoying
I like earned and limited fast travels to some extent. Let's take Torchlight II for example. You are able to teleport from a waypoint to another (that connect cities to cities) but you have to discover them first before being able to use it; you have to earn it. You can also use teleportation scroll or spell to teleport from anywhere in the world to a already visited waypoint, then you can go back to the portal that you created using that TP scroll/spell to go back hunting after a resupply/banking in the town.
Another game that I like when handling fast travel is Minecraft. There are lots of mode of transportation that enable you to move fast such as elytra, horses, or even boat on ice. You can also use nether portal, which make travelling consumes even shorter time. All of these you have to earn first: getting a horse, building the ice road, beating the ender dragon to go to the end city to find the elytra. These make fast travel really rewarding because you have to earn it.
Teleporting to family sounds like "pick a handful of areas to park alts for convenient teleports"
The running around wasn't the end of the world in new world, but It definitely did hurt. What killed the game for me was the gear score grind at the end game, and server transfers. We had an entire guild from another faction transfer that has exploited a glitch to duplicate gear. Half of them got banned after about two months of ruining the economy and claiming tons of territory because they had the best gear in the game. Which was made worse by the fact that they fucked up resilience so it made damage reduction in PVP far more than it was supposed to be.
All that said, I genuinely think Asmon has Really good takes on gaming and an understanding of the audience as well as what you need to do to cater to the larger audience and keep them around rather than just having the few insanely hardcore gamers
"The running around wasn't the end of the world in new world," Almost no one played to 60, so no you're wrong.
@@TherealRTZ973 There could be so many other reasons. Just saying "nobody played to max level" is not the evidence that you seem to think it is.
@@josiahferrell5022 I can misquote you too "Just saying "nobody played to max level" is the evidence that you seem to think it is."
@@TherealRTZ973 Oh trying to make a (correct) distinction without a difference, I see. The fact that I said "max level" and not "played to 60" changes nothing.
@@josiahferrell5022 "Almost no one" You're dumb dude
I love how he just said "Genshin Impact is successful and it's play to win witha straight face", although it's wrong but sure, it's asmongold community anyways, can't argue even what he said is wrong really.
its so funny to see people wondering why they cant feel fulfilled playing wow and other mmo's, it has nothing to do with the game its because you 30 spending 20+ hours a week farming fake status and money instead of doing it IRL
Or just don't farm status and money alltogether, farm memories and experiences
God forbid people try to have fun in a game they bought.
Most retarded take I've seen yet.
💯💯💯
1st character should always be forced to play to level cap. Allow boosts for alts.
The guy wants a life simulator, he wants inconvenience. He does not play the game of his own life tho. That must mean something.
what killed New World was the fact that every week saw a new game breaking bug or exploit that ruined PVP, the devs often two steps back for each step forward, and the botched release with the massive queues. throw in the good old "wealth transferrs are disabled" fun for two weeks to ruin all the cities, taxes, and auctionhouses, and the fact that your TP resource was used for everything else as well, and you have a better picture for why New World died.
I think the demographics for mmorpgs has changed as well. In their early days, the demo was younger, with more free time. Now the demo has aged with the game, has full time jobs, family life, as well as a younger demographic that has the time. So convenience can help strike a balance between those two groups, but sometimes it goes to far.
@@Frzned9x I'm inclined to agree.
When I see someone complaining about the grind, it's usually the zoomer who's grown up with mobile phone as a nanny, with zero patience. Personally, as a working adult I have more free time than ever before. No school homework, no nagging parents demanding to do menial housework way more often than is actually necessary. Just 9-5 job and all the rest of the time free to play games.
What happened in New World wasn't a fast travel problem...it was bad quest locations. Why did we ever need to run all the way across the map and have to return? Seriously, if a quest makes you cross the map, the hand in should be over there too...as well as the next quest in the chain.
This dude Narc has some of the most boomer takes on MMOs I've ever seen. MMO's aren't Everquest anymore. It's time to get with it, or gtfo. It's that simple. This man said "clicking on the individual bodies represents picking the loot up with your hands". LOL
Imo, that's the issue. Everquest was dope af and hard af in the beginning. Everything beat your ass and you had to group.
No fast travel is never ok, its fine if you first need to travel somewhere normally before you can use it but once you did it 5-10 times you just cant be bothered anymore and would rather just skip that part. The underlying idea is fine and all, but once you did it enough times it would just become a chore. And who wants feel like they have to do chores when they play a videogame.
I have hated fast travel and queuing for things in MMORPGs since the very beginning. As soon as these mechanics became the norm, people stopped interacting on a personal level nearly as much. MMOS use to create constant friend groups, so much so that people did not know who to hang out with. Now its just click a button and ignore everyone else for the most part. Been loving Ashes alpha, its so fun running around questing and having the random encounters with people and world events. New world was like this in the beginning when fast travel was expensive af. Now the world is dead in between towns, except for people leveling sigh.....
@@omarcomming722 Nah when I played classic as a young teen, it was only when I could save up enough $$ to go play at the local LAN center. I spent most of my MMO teen days walking to a local library to play original Runescape. I only got my rogue to level 58 right as BC came out. Then did not get to properly play again till Wraith. I am not a big fan of classic either, it was just a fun experience for its time. I just hate seeing supposed multiplayer MMOs adopt mechanics that turn them into basically No man sky Multiplayer games. Yeah you get to see people running around here and there but nothing ever really happens.
Dude Lineage 2 had fast travel. Dont be an ass.
@@justsomeguywithoutaguy4154 Because the idea of what an MMORPG is has changed. 99.9% of people who bought and played WoW Vanilla had no idea of what "content" was or what a raid or instance were for that matter. They were sold the idea of a fantasy world to explore and they did so organically.
The ideal of what an MMO would be at the time was more like the "metaverse", now it's a Skinner Box. The problem being that the industry has already chased off any general audience and the base of players that all MMO devs are competing for don't want out of the Skinner Box and rate MMOs on which one is the best Skinner Box. Which is literally what FF14 fans advertise as the upside of their favorite game over competing brands. It's better at doing things that MMOs probably never should have been doing in the first place which repulse psychologically normal people.
@@justsomeguywithoutaguy4154 I'm not giving my current opinion on the ideal but my perception of such in the 90s and early aughts when MMORPGs were new prospective players, and the expressed goals of developers at that time.
As for the rest it's just typical antisocial drivel. Most people who don't want a multiplayer experience actually just play single-player games. No one can "force" you to do anything in an MMO because you can simply not play it.
Nothing like 30 minutes of travel in game after I spend 45 minutes getting home from work
The lack of convenience is why vanilla was soo good, the grind to 60 allowed the game to be soo fun compared to the 10hour level jump we see now during expansions. Even at level 35 in vanilla you felt like a teenager, you knew how to get around and old enough for some responsibility, you were not quite an adult like level 60 but you weren’t an infant like level 25 and below either. The grind to end game was the game
final fantasy is 110% not end game only; level boost and story skip are there so people didnt have to do it again on alts for their glams because its barbie doll simulator. Thats why its there. Not because end game. The story is the main game, then after that its all barbie doll simulator and making your catgirl look good and not spend $200 on fantasia over 5 months like some people i know have because they cant decide between viera or miqo
I miss the Plane of Knowledge from EverQuest. They had it right with the transport to different regions and then needing to physically travel to the different places within the region.
On the topic of EQ, I also really miss the group based gameplay. It's was nearly impossible to do anything by yourself in EQ, even just grinding levels you needed a group, there were very few classes and zones that solo play was possible.
ROFL GW2 is definitely not missing a sense of adventure. The maps are DESIGNED for adventure.
This game has 1 requirement that really worries me. This game needs a massive population to work as intended, and open world pvp could really hurt that if people are corpse camping casuals in early questing zones.
The flag system in New World seems to work pretty well to fix that
@@GageMason Nobody in NW flags for Open World PvP.
@@Nico78Not Yes they do lmfao. But that's why you also include pvp flag only areas.
Why theres just new MMORPG which wanna looks realistic? I personaly love how WoW looks like, its perfect grafic for games like that.. its just like fairytale
Many ppl like fast travel because it makes it easy to go to the best spot for everything.
By making some spots too far away, you may have player activity more spread around.
This will make non-instanced content less overloaded, Thus allowing more ppl pr server.
@@arohk4415 i guess that comes down to how the code handles zones and players. Back in the day before seamless zoning it was easy for players to know what server was handling their action. Now microservice architecture hides that information, so Im guessing that the client is the bottleneck.
In that case, you are right. 🙂
ashes husbandry system lets you breed creatures and potential mounts, if you can alter the speed stat on these mounts it would make alooooooot of money
If Ashes of Creation won‘t have any kind of fast travel it will die out in 1-2 Months after release. Mark my words.
It has a lot more wrong with it than just lack of fast travel.
I really prefer WoW approach of fast travel, like the stormwind train, hot air balloon, ship to northren etc.
Ashes of Creation is still a forced PvP game that only a minority of people will play. Doesn't matter how many videos you put out to make PvE players think that AoC is going to be the savior of MMOs when it's proven not to be already three times by now.
The hype train already annoyed me. The open world forced PvP has killed it for me, before it is anywhere near its destination. (If it ever gets there.)
No, I don't want to play a game where I have to live on edge all the time. Not my idea of a fun time.
I think that UO private shards handled this better then most games, players could work up their mage skill and use recall runes to recall to a marked location, they could also open a "moon gate" to the marked locations on runes.. makes some builds stupid popular for their ability to save people time getting places....
Honestly to date the best system imo. It felt great to have the freedom of exploring the world and saving the location you found cool to a rune or book. Only other game I have seen do this is modern Lineage 2 with cash shop.
I'm done sitting tight for the award advance since i acquire$23,000 every 12 days of my investments
Same here, I earn $13,000 a week. GOD bless Clarissa, she has been a blessing to my family.
I think I'm blessed because if not I wouldn't have met someone who is as spectacular as expert Clarissa I think she is the best broker I ever seen
Am I witnessing bots j*rk*ing off each other?
@@jesusofsuburbia3675 yes
That’s how I feel with the wow boosts in wrath I just started fresh because I like to learn and feel my class out that way rather than boosting and getting all these abilities at once. Sometimes faster isn’t always better.
Level boosting is a symptom of/reaction to vertical progression games where the level cap is raised every 2 years.
Look at Runescape, no need for a level boost, because you level once and never have to again.
Trent Walters :
"Generating interaction between players isn't as easy as you think if everyone sits in towns, uses teleports, does something trivial, then teleports back to town. You have to be rewarded, have interactions, and feel like what you did was impactful. Teleports generally make this virtually impossible. Weight of actions and choices matter. I don't mean to waste time for the sake of wasting time."
THIS
ok but what about the people that quit because of the time wasting, or people that have less time to play so they dont even attempt to do something because they dont have time or people, or people that would want to do something but its not actually worth the time investment to do it. Yeah MMO's are hard to make but choosing the easy way to do thing wont solve any of the problems it generates and as every choice in game design there are pros and cons to it.
i hope ashes dont become a walking simulator. walking 2 hours and playing 30 minutes.
Na bruh give me convenience. Almost finished completing Skyscale collection in gw2 and if you’ve done it pre-update then you know how much quicker it is for the new players
Not an MMO, but Morrowind had great fast travel. The way you would travel actually made sense in a fantasy world. Teleport spells or riding a giant creature from city to city. The “click button to go anywhere” form of fast travel is just so boring.
Ashes will still have many forms of traversing the world, but they will all make sense from a lore and player perspective. There will be no one click to get anywhere, and I’m all for it.
Grind is the issue, MMOS should have no level grind, levels are stupid. Why cant someone create FortNite/overwatch/etc style mixed with a MMO. The minute you log in, thats as powerful as your character will ever be. The game is finding different items, weapons, building communities and cities to fight over in a persistent world.
Fast travel makes any open world MMO feel instanced and small. It's a very very bad idea if you want to convey any sort of world scale and wonder in a videogame.
I liked approach to traveling in Albion Online. You could go by foot around using only safe zones, you could make a shortcut through the middle, where there was open full-loot pvp, or go through the roads which was randomly generated network of portals, also with open full-loot pvp (but with limited number of people inside). You could also fast travel around the cities, but the cost scaled with your weight to the degree, that using it any other way than naked basically defeated the point.
If the game ever realy comes out for the public...
it's interesting how warthunder and WoX fall under that premise of artificial inconvenience, but don't really get a lot of acknowledgment outside of the communities that play it.
maybe it's because of lack of popularity, or their models are slowly losing them players.
The amount of copium is real, people thinking that running a round in the world slowly everywhere is fun content.. classic wow imo did it best, its not that you cant teleport but they tie it back with the theme of mage and portals to teleport. having more classes be able to access or have teleport stones would be an immersive way to do it, following whatever theoretical thing that sounds good is what made new world and wildstar fail
"no one grinds more and harder then i do" lol
What killed MMOs is the amount of absolutely selfish and greedy people there are. Grown adults acting so petty over pixels. Disgusting people. I unironically miss the days when people who played games were nerdy dorks and playing games was 'fringe.'
Everyone's so connected now, you'll get eaten alive if you're not in a social group.
if level boost are ok, why have levels? Devs waste way way too much of their design time for the leveling content which people just fly through, so why have it at all?
Mortal Online 2 is also a MMO using unreal engine with a big world with no loadingscreens using nodes, it only works if everyone spreads out evenly, if one city becomes too popular it focuses all the energy on that node and it laggs the entire world. This is designed with a "I HOPE THEY DONT GO TO THE SAME PLACE" plan
"I do that a lot."
I don't believe him.
Maybe adding a great amount of randomness to future MMOs would help reduce problem with min/maxing and basically make it almost impossible 🤷♂
I grinded a lot in these games too, like for Sun sword in GW2 that take at the time a at least 4-5 months to get. I can tell you now, my times taking a boat from Darkshore across to the Swamps, then running along the road to get to Stormwind was so much fun.
If you have the need to go to any place in an instant you need fast travel. But what if you don't need to do that?
the problem is that the ppl like asmon who has the time to invest are the messure for grinds because those are the players who play a lot, Figure stuff out ,are Done with a grind fester ,are involved in forums ect
the grind is Set to thier timeinvestment and there come the normal players and nope out
18:00 player agency on how to move around is huge and partly why I love the monk class or demon hunter to be able to roll from place to place or flying serpent kick off a cliff into a glider and often use these abilities to get from one location or another without a mount often faster then taking the 5 seconds to get on a mount especially if the destination is pretty close. That agency to traverse the world makes it fun and why I have high hopes for dragon riding.
Increasing wilderness survival elements to require strategy and teamwork. Otherwise it's just a social solo arcade style game racing to the highest scores to show off with others.
Dude i keep repeating some of these same points. Everyone has their horse blinders on thinking AOC is going to be the next best thing since sliced bread. While i agree, in theory, it sounds amazing. In practice, this game is going to have to change some of the biggest design elements if its going to retain 50% of its player base over 9 months. Fast travel will have to be a thing, open world PVP is going to have to get modified. (not removed but just changed) Losing resources for absolutely no reason at all other than being griefed. Those are just a few examples of things that will have to get changed or it will absolutely kill the game 100% guaranteed without a doubt.
alexandria ocasio-cortez?
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God Yea, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ya muppet.
I like overworld fast travel systems like flightmasters and boats, etc. I think my perfect amount would be summoning, flight masters + whistle and a good amount of boats/ airships
Yet every sijngle successful rpg and mmo has had: grind for the sake of grind is found in the best games, because when you take most of the game to a certian level, you have to give cooldown / breather periods. Most of them take that too far imo, but I understand the need, and feel the lack in many games.
At least, if you want a skill / talent ceiling higher than 20-30 minutes of play time
Honestly for me it's about the loot, that's why I like Diablo. Tons of different loots.
Running to the portal in Silvermoon to get to the Undercity to take a Zepplin to Orgrimar is one of my favourite memories and I remember the exact route till today even though I haven't played in years.
The problem with selling convenience is that it makes the company financially incentivized to make the game as inconvenient as possible if you don't pay.
Instead of making the best game they can to sell copies, they make the most tantalizing game they can, then throw paywall after paywall in front of you.
Auto loot everything and let you set the time interval in seconds. So you still get the light beams for a few seconds (you can change the options between 1-5 seconds it sits on floor) then you get to anticipate opening inventory and checking out stats. Best of both worlds.