Nice Blackfish reference. He didn't get to die on-screen, so I still hoped that a few Tully men killed Lannister soldiers, donned their armor, and claimed Ser Brynden "Blackfish" Tully died an unceremonious death. Also, the guy looked a bit like Mick Foley back in the 90s (see The 13th Warrior).
So true mate, thing is we actually picked the tame ones. There's some serious disturbing theories regarding Arthur Dayne that involve blood orgys at the tower of Joy and human sacrifice 😂 thanks for watching as always buddy! Liam
Idk if the theory of Tyrion being the time traveling aborted fetus of Dany and Drogo will ever be topped in terms of weirdness. Funny enough the guy made a decent case for it.
@@TheFandomeClips swear to god I read that theory several years back before the show ended. It was the most batshit insane theory and yet I was impressed how well the person did making their case. Missandei being a faceless woman is another pretty weird one haha.
He was named Authur Dayne before he was a swordsman, and would still be named Authur Dayne even if he never became a swordsman. So, your question makes no sense.
The first three theories can be summed up in a song: Brave Ser Arthur ran away Bravely ran away, away When danger reared its ugly head He bravely turned his tail and fled Yes, Brave Ser Arthur turned about And gallantly he chickened out Bravely taking to his feet He beat a very brave retreat Bravest of the brave, Ser Arthur!
Comedy is such an interesting art- I've seen this joke used hundreds of times, almost ALWAYS in this context. Yet it's always funny. Strange how that works, maybe it's something to do with the timing- but I don't know. Either way, good comment. You beat me to it
There's still a chance when we get a prequel about the rebellion matey! They might have a sparring match and we can finally see who was the best of them. Thanks for watching as always Jeremy matey! Join our discord you know you want to ;) Liam
Qhorin Halfhand isn't Ser Arthur Dayne, Qhorin is Ser Gerold Hightower. Both men are tall. Gerold was the senior among the Kingsguard, so he's old - and Qhorin has gray hair. Ser Gerold took an arrow in his hand during the Kingswood Brotherhood's attack upon the traveling royal party. His hand being wounded previously might explain why Gerold/Qhorin didn't flinch in taking a Wildling's axe to his hand in order to shield his face. And the injury necessitated that "Qhorin" learn to fight with his left hand - he wasn't previously proficient with it.
@@emmettorr9256 In the books, Toramund is described as hsving a big white beard and being a huge and thick man. Gerold Hightower's nickname was The White Bull which is a perfect description for how Toramund is described so I think Gerold is more likely to be Toramund. Also, in the official art that GRRM sanctioned, Oswell Whent is seen on a knee sharpening his sword with the other kingsguard. When we see Qorin Halfhand, hes always sharpening his sword. So i think thats a big giveaway that Oswell is Qorin. But I absolutely agree Arthur Dayne is Mance.
Great video 👍 Yeah, Arthur Dayne is kinda like a Greek hero, a once in a generation mythical being, certainly from the perspective of the masses. I bet Selmy is seen in a similar way. Stories like storming a castle solo to save a king are almost fantastic in such a brutal world, which adds too their legend
He's such a popular character no one wants to let him go, so i love how you built it up only to bring us back to reality... "he's dead get over it" 😅 i'm sure grrm would say something similar. He wrote so many complicated characters spread over 5 books, yet we are so obsessed over one ⚔
Arthur dies at the tower if joy. Ashara told Ned where her brother was, post war, Ned goes with his Posse. Arthur dies, when he brings Dawn back to Starfall, Ashara realises that giving Ned that info got her brother killed. She jumps from the tower. I say this as the biggest Dayne fanboi and want him and Ashara to both be alive, but it just makes too much sense in George's world. Also CK3 AGOT? Time to join a new discord i think, haha
The entire Tower of Joy scene in the books is from Ned's fever dream when hes drugged up with milk of the poppy after breaking his leg. GRRM said publicly that fever dreams are not meant to be taken literally.
This series has far too many conspiracy theories and George has been so absolutely god awful at finishing the series( he will never finish it) that I'm almost convinced that George wants to make every single subversion possible and has actually crippled his ability to write bc of it. D&D knew what the main ending points were bc George had to tell them. So any theories are ultimately unimportant to the story and it's ending. But we'll never know.
Idk if y'all will see this as it's an older video, BUT I've got an interesting theory What if Dayne is Mance Raider the King Beyond the Wall? Hear me out: Mance, at least in the show, appears to be about the right age for what he would be. He takes an immediate interest in Jon and gives him a Hell of a lot of leeway where most would have been killed. He's the only person in history to unite all the Wild Folk AND the Giants because he's fully aware of the real and tangible threat that is the Wights and White Walkers, and during his execution at the Hands of Stannis he wishes Stannis "I wish you good fortune in the Wars to come" which is the EXACT same thing Dayne tells Ned just before the battle at the Tower of Joy. Plausible? I think so! Likely? Probably not, but it sounds fun to think about
I’m reading A Clash of Kings right now and one thing that supports the Qhorin halfhand theory that I can think of is that when Halfhand gets to the camp at the fist of the first men, he immediately chooses Jon to be part of the ranging team
I find it sad that Ser Jaime's 'dishonor' was a result of him being tied to King Scab's hip as a hostage throughout Robert's Rebellion. He ultimately made the right decision forsaking his oath to save King's Landing. I wonder how fate would have played out if Ser Jaime had been at the Tower of Joy or the Ruby Ford with Ser Arthur Dayne or Ser Barristan Selmy by the Mad King's side when the order was given to "Burn them all."
Regarding the Qhorin theory, the reason he could have changed his identity is to protect the honor of his house, not having a kingsguard who surrendered and abandoned his oath
Im convinced Order of the Greenhand is right about everything and Mance is Arthur Dayne, Tormund is the White Bull, Quorin was Oswald Went, and Jon is Arthur/Mance's nephew.
I heard a theory somewhere that the fighting stopped and all three of them went up to the room. When they all came down Dayne being the honorable knight he is tells Ned that he must die and you must tell people you defeated me in combat. He then gets a warriors death and Ned returns the sword. Howland Reed then takes Daynes sister as his wife to protect her and takes her back home with him. I don’t know if it has any standing but I did like the theory.
Howland Reed being a warg would explain The Knight of the Laughing Tree a lot. Instead of Lyanna or Howland. It'd be Lyanna *and* Howland. Lyanna did all the jousting and Howland warged into all the other guys' horses. Because Howland is obviously not a good rider, and he totally couldn't both riding and warging (could he?), and Lyanna would need more of an edge other than being a good rider and having a smaller hitbox.
@@TheFandomeClips but many daynes do have blond hair: darkstar, edric,and three of the sons of dyanna dayne. Daynes have both dark hair and light hair genes
Guys! You forgot about the best theory that was crafted by (or belongs to) the Order of the Green Hand!! Firstly N+A=J and R+L=A so check those videos out if you haven’t listened yet. Anyways long and short is that the other two kings guard accompanied Dayne to the Wall where they then went North and became wildling leaders. I believe Hightower (the White Bull) became Tormund Giantsbane as the characters have similar physical descriptions, I forget who Whent becomes (my apologies it’s been a bit since I watched the videos myself), and Dayne becomes Mance Rayder. In the books Mance is glamoured by Melisandre to look like Lord of Bones and to avoid being burned at the stake. This character, Lord of Bones who is actually Mance in disguise, then squares up in the yard with Jon Snow and completely washes him with a two handed greatsword (similar to Dawn though nothing special) notably moving faster than a man ought to be able to. They obviously go a lot more in depth than I did, though I apologize for the length of this comment 😂, so give them a listen!!
I love that after the end of the TV show there are still videos about ASOIAF. I reread the books and enjoy watching theories and analysis videos on UA-cam
I do think it’s interesting that the Qhorin actor looks a bit like the Dayne actor… but then again, once Jon gets up to The Wall, I don’t remember Qhorin really taking any interest in him at all 🤷♂️
But that’s because Qhorin is at the shadow tower. Besides, when they meet up at the fist of the first men, Qhorin choose Jon first to be part of the ranging party that would scout out Mance’s army
Exactly our thoughts Rob! He's served his narrative purpose with his death. The lesson? Don't be a hero in this fictional universe, even been the best won't save you. Thanks for watching as always matey! Liam
I think its possible. The only issue i have with that theory is that the perquisite for DnD getting to adapt ASOIAF was that they had to be able to tell GRRM who Jons mother was in order to get permission. I'm very skeptical of what beats they maintained past the end of season 4 but I'm pretty confident that beat is one of them. We'll not know though till we get the books though. Thanks for watching! Liam
Arthur Dane surrendering and take the black would be so out of character it would cause too many questions if him and Ned did make a plan to protect Jon
Regarding your point about Ned not being able to anticipate how Jon’s features would change as he grew- I think Ned was hedging against that on purpose, actually. Since he refused to talk about or allow speculation about Jon’s mother, he positioned himself perfectly to be able to wave away any features that differed strongly enough from the Starks off onto “the boy’s mother.” While uncommon, there are other cultures within the world with strongly Valyrian features. The combination of silver hair and purple eyes might be a bit thin, but it’s not impossible. Purple eyes are seen elsewhere, most notably House Dayne, but in Essos, they aren’t unheard of. The silver hair is uncommon, but not rare in Essos, as well. We frequently hear of folks with those features prized while working in the same industry as the girl in Jorah’s lap when he and Tyrion meet (euphemized to avoid community guideline issues). By giving no information, he left himself maximally able to pivot.
Arthur Dayne always seemed like more of idea than a person to me. Like he’s there to show you what a knight should be before throwing you back into the real world and showing you that knights like that don’t actually exist
Dayne is not still alive in ASoIaF for the same reason *famous dead person in real life* isn't still alive. He wouldn't have just gone into a quiet retirement. He would have kept doing the thing that made him famous, and people would have recognized him.
This makes me want to start making content here because I have a theory around Arthur Dayne I haven't seen anywhere else. I rly enjoyed hearing yours, mine also involves him being dead in the current timeline (altho how he dies in mine is different than yours). Whenever I comment my theories under videos like this, so many ppl get upset at me, but I think I need to get used to it because it's never to late to start making content 😅 not even at my old age and not to toot my own horn but I think I'm on the right path, if I'm not correct. Don't we all feel this way lol. I'm wrong, I think your theory is the correct one.
The funniest thing is that Qhorin Halfhand is probably just an Ironborn. Shares the same name with Qhorin Volmark and a "Hand" epithet just like Harwyn Hardhand and Urron Redhand. Lost his fingers in an incident rather similar to the Finger Dance.
I have always thought that maybe Mance is Dane. Not the halfhand. In the books, Jon does training against 3 recruits until Mance challenges him to a duel. Jon struggles mightily during this duel. It is also believed that Gerold Hightower could be Tormund. Perhaps the halfhand is Oswell Went.
Once there was a comment thread about who was the better kingsguard, mad kings or maegors, and they were saying how maegors are better talking about the 7 v 7 duel, but that ratio is still 1v1 compared to Ned's with 2.33v1
OG theory still stands. If Dane knows or thinks Jon is Azora then he would not come out of hiding to protect the other two because it would make Neds story of what happen questionable and if they think his story is false then what other things has he said and done are false and suspicion would fall on Jons parentage. Neds head thoughts of "they had been 7 against 3 but only two lived to ride away could mean Need talking about the 7 and not including the kings guard.
What makes me believe Ser Arthur Dayne is still alive is that Dayne is a direct parallel to another character from another series that GRRM has publicly stated in many occasions was the primary inspiration for ASOIAF; the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series by Tad Williams. Ser Arthur Dayne mirrors the character of Sir Camaris, a legendary knight who had allegedly died in a shipwreck years before the events of the first novel, Dragonbone Chair. Sir Camaris was apart of the King's bodyguard and was the personal protector of the Queen. He wielded the ancestral sword of his family, Thorn, which was a sword of great power, being imbued with primordial magic by the Tinukeda'ya a thousand years before. AND AS I AM TYPING THIS I JUST REMEMBERED that Thorn was also forged from meteoric iron, just like Dawn. [SPOILER] Anywho, in the second book, Stone of Farewell, we find out that Sir Camaris is actually still alive. He survived the shipwreck and was not only suffering from amnesia, but was somewhat simple minded for unexplained reasons. In the next book, To Green Angel Tower, his memory and wits are returned to him, much to his disappointment. He had willingly had his memories locked away because he was so heartbroken when the queen died in childbirth. The child was Prince Josua, who we find out later is actually the son of Camaris and not King John like we believed for three novels. Camaris felt guilty for having betrayed his friend, the king, and felt immeasurable grief that because of the infidelity, the queen died in labor carrying Caramis' child. There are already numerous parallels in ASOIAF to MST Jon Snow = Simon Snowlock Sandor Clagane's Hound Helm = the Hound Helmed Huntsmen Ingan Jager Arya's sword Needle = Josua's rapier Naidel Jon's Direwolf Ghost = Binabik's wolf Qantaqa The Others = The Norns Children of the forest = The Sithi And I can keep going. The homages to MST in ASOIAF are so numerous. If Ser Arthur Dayne isn't alive, it will be a huge disappointment.
A theory video of wild conspiracies about how a character survived his apparent death to live as one of several possible alternate identities, only to end with "nah fam he probably dead", is the most George R. R. Martin theory video I could possibly imagine. Bra(a)vo(s).
„Not a negative thing is paired with his name.“ *Ahem He watched the Mad King commit heinous crimes uncaringly and told Jaime Lannister he wasn’t allowed to judge the king for it. He allowed Rhaegar and Aerys to do whatever they want and backed them up the whole way
And helped in Rhaegar breaking his marriage vows, fathering a bastard and fighting for a dead king for no purpose killing numerous men with Ned. The people in Westeros think he is ideal, but he was blinded by his man crush on Rhaegar aka the most overrated prat in the whole of the story.
@@neodigremo He's Dornish, there is no such thing as a good Dornish. I genuinely question why the Targaryens even wanted the place, what can in actually contribute to the kingdom as a whole besides a lot of sand?
Yeah and Jamie actually killed the king and was vilified for it, just like Dayne would have been. Barrister selmy was also there, nobody bad mouths him right?
I honestly love the theory that Reed did warg Arthur, but he still died, and it still fits with the theme of dishonorable fighting being more practical due to it being one of the taboos of skinchangers, and the drama of dying in another man's body would explain why Reed is so reclusive.
I'm not super in the books, I'm almost done the first one plus the UA-cam channels, but I can't see how he's alive from the memories, he had a duty to follow and died, end of story, if he survived I doubt he'd be tye dude we love
I think it's plausible for Dayne to be hiding as the Halfhand because it would help sell it to Robert. Dayne may be immune from the law but Robert might find it odd that this paragon of honor didn't go down fighting, and maybe even suspicious of Jon
Also I feel like Dayne is remembered as this perfect and heroic swordsman with impeccable honor because that's how we tend to remember people that are well loved. Anything bad or questionable they've done gets forgotten
Arthur Dayne died at the trident. He wasn't at the tower of joy when Ned arrived. Rhaegar was insted of him. Dayne lost the battle to Robert, perhaps because of it was agreed to, or he was just not in his zone wearing Rhaegars armor. Ruby glamour. At the tower, Rhaegar told Ned what is going on, about the prince that was promised and they agreed that Ned should raise him as a bastard, so one day Jon could join his father behind the wall, where Rhaegar still lives and has gathered a massive army, disquised as Mance Rayder.
Arthur Dayne serves as an allegory for honor and virtue in the world of ASOIAF very similar to Ned in book 1. The character that everyone deems as the peak of honor and righteousness is ultimately killed under unremarkable circumstances to portray that this isn't THAT type of story. Adherence to vows and honor will get you nowhere. Ned is killed on a whim by a psychopathic child and Dayne triumphs over insurmountable odds only to be stabbed in the back by the character that even the Freys pick on and bully for being small and weird. All of the characters who try to live by this code end up dying. Ned, Rob, Jon (to an extent) all get killed for sticking to this code. Notably, Jon is learning to "play the game" later in the story and we see a different side of him, where he's willing to play politics and participate in trickery. Ironically, he still gets killed for it but that's just the type of story this is and the type of author that George is. I'm not sure how there is still any speculation or doubt about Dayne's fate at this point. I think that fans REALLY want him to still be alive, so they invent any possible way - no matter how absurd or nonsensical of an explanation they have to come up with- for him to be alive, so they can see him pop out of the fray in all of his supreme glory, wielding Dawn and cracking skulls. But deep down, they know he's dead.
I hadn’t thought about it that much until now but Arthur Dane losing a 7 on 3 fight to Ned and some northern dudes is kinda odd. The 2 knights with Dane were kings guard. They should’ve been worth 2 northern knights at least so to imagine Dane isn’t worth 3 or 4 himself is kinda crazy. Either Ned and Reed are WAY better fighters than they’re given credit or Dane is FAR worse.
Hmm also if Dawn was sent to Starfall to be kept safe for Jon because Arthur and Ned agreed that he was Azor Ahai why would Ned send him to the Wall instead of sending him to Starfall as a ward?
Just because Ser Allister Thorne and Ser Arthur Dayne are both Targaryan loyalists doesn't mean Dayne would let him in on why he was there. Just another loyalist captured in a war that they lost
If Arthur Dayne is alive, he's almost certainly in Essos. If Arthur Dayne is in Essos he's almost certainly with the Golden Company and would almost certainly be with Jon Connington and Young Griff. Jon would absolutely know who Arthur Dayne is. The guy's dead and is an allegory for chivalry, nobility and honor being dead.
I know it’s unlikely you’re gonna see this, but a future video idea I had was how could House Hightower/Targaryn with the Dance of the Dragons (since no side really won)
Arthur either represents the death of the fairy tale, or is the personification of the falsehood of the fairy tale. Either way it's thematic that he dies by Ned and Howlands hands.
I agree with you guys that Arthur is dead. I don't agree with the context people keep putting Ned Stark in though. He's not merely an above average swordsman. He was trained since birth to fight with all the resources one could ever hope for. Jamie with both hands couldn't even wound Ned. So when people say "above average" it's not versus the average man. It's against the pinnacle of warriors. Think of it like an above average NBA player. They can still make an all-star team, and they can win if the best players aren't playing their best on that given day. And an above average NBA player would wipe the floor with scrubs on any random basketball court. Context can be everything sometimes.
@@TheFandomeClips I do hope they change something and do something with the character so we can chalk his ending in the show up to D&D being dumb, but GRRM has a proclivity for killing characters that are not morally grey
May the 4th be with you Thom and Liam! Great video as always! I agree there is no chance Arthur Dayne would be hiding on his own while Viserys and Daenerys are alone wandering in Essos. He would have went to their aid as soon as he could. Also he would have saw right through Young Griff as a Charlatan immediately
The show shit the bed with dawn just as much as with the dornish master plan. Was literally right there to use as an amazing plot device. Dnd decided to shit on prince doran and the dornish in general and completly ignore the legendary status of the weilder of the sword dawn. That last one really pissed me off. Dawn isnt just a awesome sword. Its a sword you have to earn the right to wield. Thats why noone has it in got
What's that random 80's looking Larp movie that keeps showing up? Is it related to GoT? XD I know the other one, with the p grumpy professor from that 70's movie.
Arthur Dayne is Ashara. He fell for Ned, and Ned for Ashara/Arthur. Ashara "committed sudoku" because Arthur needed to disappear to play his role later, and thus Ashara had to die alongside Arthur. Lol jk
i really cant believe you dont put the most logic theory about Sir Artur Dayne, that one who said, DAYNE EQUAL MANCE RAYDER? i mean. that isnt ringing any bells for you????
Is it at all pertinent that Jaime idolized AD and trained under him and then possibly lost a hand (possibly) just like he did and had to fight with his off hand. And u didn't go into depth about the rest of the AD=QHH theory as it pertains to the other characters and their "WHY"
I find the mocking of the concept of knightly honor by Martin so childish e boorish. Middle age was a period of turmoil, though not the "dark age" many think of. Soldiers and knights in the middle ages knew war. They fought hard for their life and property. They faced death on the battlefield (and in the tavern) and they had they weapons and skills and companions to rely on to survive the next day. These people who new war and death very well, they believed in honor. Mostly because they knew that you don't fight alone, you fight in groups, in battalions, in armies and you can't win or even survive if you can't trust your men and companions. Honor is a tool to survive and win wars. Then you have a new york writer who never fought a day in his life other than for the last sandwich in a buffet saying "Honor is stupid URH URH URH look at me I'm so smart and edgy". Pitiful.
😂 that would explain SO MUCH Pacocheung! Think about it, it just makes perfect sense. I can't believe noone has pieced that together 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
Its another good theroy Unreal. I think the truth of Qohrin is that he's just his own character and he's a natural badass. Thanks for watching as always! Liam
Fandome: We have a theory of Arthur Dayne, M'lord
Fans: Good. Tell it to me.
Fandome: He died, fighting, M'lord.
I swear, I need to stop pinning your comments 😂 - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips 👍
@@TheFandomeClips his name spelled thom?
Nice Blackfish reference. He didn't get to die on-screen, so I still hoped that a few Tully men killed Lannister soldiers, donned their armor, and claimed Ser Brynden "Blackfish" Tully died an unceremonious death.
Also, the guy looked a bit like Mick Foley back in the 90s (see The 13th Warrior).
@@Sir_Fres well mine is at least ! Liam does the narration, I do the editing... mostly.- Thom
This is what 13 years of no new book does to a mfer.
Somehow not as nutty as Bolt-on or Lemongate.
So true mate, thing is we actually picked the tame ones. There's some serious disturbing theories regarding Arthur Dayne that involve blood orgys at the tower of Joy and human sacrifice 😂 thanks for watching as always buddy! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips
I’m sorry, WHAT
Idk if the theory of Tyrion being the time traveling aborted fetus of Dany and Drogo will ever be topped in terms of weirdness. Funny enough the guy made a decent case for it.
@@caseyhart4999 w.t.f
@@TheFandomeClips swear to god I read that theory several years back before the show ended. It was the most batshit insane theory and yet I was impressed how well the person did making their case. Missandei being a faceless woman is another pretty weird one haha.
"Are you the Best Swordsman because you're Arthur Dayne, or are you Arthur Dayne because you're the Best Swordsman."
😂 extremely poetic words there my friend! Thanks for watching! Liam
Jesus Christ lebotomy kaisen has spread to far
… yes?
This is Jujutsu Kaisen anime line lol. Are you the strongest because you're Satoru Gojo, or are you Satoru Gojo because you're the strongest?
He was named Authur Dayne before he was a swordsman, and would still be named Authur Dayne even if he never became a swordsman.
So, your question makes no sense.
The first three theories can be summed up in a song:
Brave Ser Arthur ran away
Bravely ran away, away
When danger reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Yes, Brave Ser Arthur turned about
And gallantly he chickened out
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat
Bravest of the brave, Ser Arthur!
Good stuff !
The real Arthur dayne was the friends we made along the way
Comedy is such an interesting art- I've seen this joke used hundreds of times, almost ALWAYS in this context. Yet it's always funny.
Strange how that works, maybe it's something to do with the timing- but I don't know. Either way, good comment. You beat me to it
Some say Arthur Dayne is alive and lives on an Island next to Elvis and Tupac
Tupac is spooning with Notorious BIG on that island then.
Entirely plausible theory for this fanbase
As unlikely as it'll ever be, I'd absolutely a adore some kind of three-way swordfight between Arthur, Barristan and Jaime 😊
Remove “swordfight” and it’d be way more interesting
😂bra no@@warlordofbritannia
😂
There's still a chance when we get a prequel about the rebellion matey! They might have a sparring match and we can finally see who was the best of them.
Thanks for watching as always Jeremy matey! Join our discord you know you want to ;) Liam
Throw Daemon Blackfyre and myself in the mix and it would get really interesting
Has a Nemesis called the Smiling Knight. Arthur Dayne Rhymes with Bruce Wayne. Hmm.
Qhorin Halfhand isn't Ser Arthur Dayne, Qhorin is Ser Gerold Hightower. Both men are tall. Gerold was the senior among the Kingsguard, so he's old - and Qhorin has gray hair. Ser Gerold took an arrow in his hand during the Kingswood Brotherhood's attack upon the traveling royal party. His hand being wounded previously might explain why Gerold/Qhorin didn't flinch in taking a Wildling's axe to his hand in order to shield his face. And the injury necessitated that "Qhorin" learn to fight with his left hand - he wasn't previously proficient with it.
Exactly!! Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne & Tormund is Oswald Went
@@emmettorr9256 In the books, Toramund is described as hsving a big white beard and being a huge and thick man. Gerold Hightower's nickname was The White Bull which is a perfect description for how Toramund is described so I think Gerold is more likely to be Toramund. Also, in the official art that GRRM sanctioned, Oswell Whent is seen on a knee sharpening his sword with the other kingsguard. When we see Qorin Halfhand, hes always sharpening his sword. So i think thats a big giveaway that Oswell is Qorin. But I absolutely agree Arthur Dayne is Mance.
Great video 👍
Yeah, Arthur Dayne is kinda like a Greek hero, a once in a generation mythical being, certainly from the perspective of the masses. I bet Selmy is seen in a similar way. Stories like storming a castle solo to save a king are almost fantastic in such a brutal world, which adds too their legend
He's such a popular character no one wants to let him go, so i love how you built it up only to bring us back to reality... "he's dead get over it" 😅 i'm sure grrm would say something similar. He wrote so many complicated characters spread over 5 books, yet we are so obsessed over one ⚔
Arthur dies at the tower if joy. Ashara told Ned where her brother was, post war, Ned goes with his Posse. Arthur dies, when he brings Dawn back to Starfall, Ashara realises that giving Ned that info got her brother killed. She jumps from the tower.
I say this as the biggest Dayne fanboi and want him and Ashara to both be alive, but it just makes too much sense in George's world.
Also CK3 AGOT? Time to join a new discord i think, haha
The entire Tower of Joy scene in the books is from Ned's fever dream when hes drugged up with milk of the poppy after breaking his leg. GRRM said publicly that fever dreams are not meant to be taken literally.
Its makes a lot of sense in Georges's world that they are alive posing as other characters. The kings guard at the wall and Ashara with Faegons troop.
This series has far too many conspiracy theories and George has been so absolutely god awful at finishing the series( he will never finish it) that I'm almost convinced that George wants to make every single subversion possible and has actually crippled his ability to write bc of it. D&D knew what the main ending points were bc George had to tell them. So any theories are ultimately unimportant to the story and it's ending. But we'll never know.
Idk if y'all will see this as it's an older video, BUT I've got an interesting theory
What if Dayne is Mance Raider the King Beyond the Wall?
Hear me out: Mance, at least in the show, appears to be about the right age for what he would be. He takes an immediate interest in Jon and gives him a Hell of a lot of leeway where most would have been killed. He's the only person in history to unite all the Wild Folk AND the Giants because he's fully aware of the real and tangible threat that is the Wights and White Walkers, and during his execution at the Hands of Stannis he wishes Stannis "I wish you good fortune in the Wars to come" which is the EXACT same thing Dayne tells Ned just before the battle at the Tower of Joy.
Plausible? I think so! Likely? Probably not, but it sounds fun to think about
I’m reading A Clash of Kings right now and one thing that supports the Qhorin halfhand theory that I can think of is that when Halfhand gets to the camp at the fist of the first men, he immediately chooses Jon to be part of the ranging team
I find it sad that Ser Jaime's 'dishonor' was a result of him being tied to King Scab's hip as a hostage throughout Robert's Rebellion.
He ultimately made the right decision forsaking his oath to save King's Landing.
I wonder how fate would have played out if Ser Jaime had been at the Tower of Joy or the Ruby Ford with Ser Arthur Dayne or Ser Barristan Selmy by the Mad King's side when the order was given to "Burn them all."
Regarding the Qhorin theory, the reason he could have changed his identity is to protect the honor of his house, not having a kingsguard who surrendered and abandoned his oath
Im convinced Order of the Greenhand is right about everything and Mance is Arthur Dayne, Tormund is the White Bull, Quorin was Oswald Went, and Jon is Arthur/Mance's nephew.
Absolutely!!! They piece it all together perfectly!
yeah i agree except R+L=J not N+A=J like they believe.
I heard a theory somewhere that the fighting stopped and all three of them went up to the room. When they all came down Dayne being the honorable knight he is tells Ned that he must die and you must tell people you defeated me in combat. He then gets a warriors death and Ned returns the sword. Howland Reed then takes Daynes sister as his wife to protect her and takes her back home with him.
I don’t know if it has any standing but I did like the theory.
Howland Reed being a warg would explain The Knight of the Laughing Tree a lot. Instead of Lyanna or Howland. It'd be Lyanna *and* Howland. Lyanna did all the jousting and Howland warged into all the other guys' horses. Because Howland is obviously not a good rider, and he totally couldn't both riding and warging (could he?), and Lyanna would need more of an edge other than being a good rider and having a smaller hitbox.
If Jon had had more typical Targaryan features it could have simply been explained by the idea that he was Ashara's son.
As long as he doesn’t get the silver hair 😂 - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips but many daynes do have blond hair: darkstar, edric,and three of the sons of dyanna dayne. Daynes have both dark hair and light hair genes
I wished the show gave more screen time to Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy, but that much badassery would be too much to handle.
0:10 Did this man just say "Epi - Tome" lmao
Oi Thom already got me in the video itself, we'll have less of this! A Brit mispronouncing a word, I can only feel so much shame 😂
Don't feel bad. I'm American and every time I see that damn word written I say epi-tome 😅
Also "queey" when I see queue
Guys! You forgot about the best theory that was crafted by (or belongs to) the Order of the Green Hand!! Firstly N+A=J and R+L=A so check those videos out if you haven’t listened yet. Anyways long and short is that the other two kings guard accompanied Dayne to the Wall where they then went North and became wildling leaders. I believe Hightower (the White Bull) became Tormund Giantsbane as the characters have similar physical descriptions, I forget who Whent becomes (my apologies it’s been a bit since I watched the videos myself), and Dayne becomes Mance Rayder. In the books Mance is glamoured by Melisandre to look like Lord of Bones and to avoid being burned at the stake. This character, Lord of Bones who is actually Mance in disguise, then squares up in the yard with Jon Snow and completely washes him with a two handed greatsword (similar to Dawn though nothing special) notably moving faster than a man ought to be able to. They obviously go a lot more in depth than I did, though I apologize for the length of this comment 😂, so give them a listen!!
I love your theory despite it being pretty sad.
Could you please make a video about the Jaqen/Rhaegar theory?
No one who was actually there actually says that anyone killed Arthur or he died at the Tower of Joy. Drives me mad that this get so overlooked
Also the fact that sword of the morning is an earned title. People give up titles and take the black all the time.
I love that after the end of the TV show there are still videos about ASOIAF. I reread the books and enjoy watching theories and analysis videos on UA-cam
Qoren is Gerold Hightower, Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent is Oswell Kettleblack.
yesss i believed that so
Ligit says "translate to English" under this comment. I found that hilarious
I do think it’s interesting that the Qhorin actor looks a bit like the Dayne actor… but then again, once Jon gets up to The Wall, I don’t remember Qhorin really taking any interest in him at all 🤷♂️
But that’s because Qhorin is at the shadow tower. Besides, when they meet up at the fist of the first men, Qhorin choose Jon first to be part of the ranging party that would scout out Mance’s army
Lyanna had twins. Arthur took the girl, and Ned took the boy. Arthur is Mance, Val (Valaria)is the twin. 😅
Lyanna is still alive too, she is Howlands wife (Who is called Jyana, a little bit to similair now, is it).
And also Aegon the conqueror is actually Jon connington, after being brainwashed by the mad king, making him think he’s a whole other character
First Knight is such a banger of a film.
It makes no sense for Dayne to live past the Tower of Joy. He would be sat around doing nothing, which would just be too unlikely
Exactly our thoughts Rob! He's served his narrative purpose with his death. The lesson? Don't be a hero in this fictional universe, even been the best won't save you.
Thanks for watching as always matey! Liam
Peak Content. Glad i found this channel
Imma say: N+A = J has more feasibility as Jon is never clued to being Targ related
I think its possible. The only issue i have with that theory is that the perquisite for DnD getting to adapt ASOIAF was that they had to be able to tell GRRM who Jons mother was in order to get permission. I'm very skeptical of what beats they maintained past the end of season 4 but I'm pretty confident that beat is one of them. We'll not know though till we get the books though.
Thanks for watching! Liam
Ned and Arthur? That’s brilliant!
Arthur Dane surrendering and take the black would be so out of character it would cause too many questions if him and Ned did make a plan to protect Jon
Regarding your point about Ned not being able to anticipate how Jon’s features would change as he grew-
I think Ned was hedging against that on purpose, actually. Since he refused to talk about or allow speculation about Jon’s mother, he positioned himself perfectly to be able to wave away any features that differed strongly enough from the Starks off onto “the boy’s mother.”
While uncommon, there are other cultures within the world with strongly Valyrian features. The combination of silver hair and purple eyes might be a bit thin, but it’s not impossible. Purple eyes are seen elsewhere, most notably House Dayne, but in Essos, they aren’t unheard of. The silver hair is uncommon, but not rare in Essos, as well. We frequently hear of folks with those features prized while working in the same industry as the girl in Jorah’s lap when he and Tyrion meet (euphemized to avoid community guideline issues).
By giving no information, he left himself maximally able to pivot.
Arthur Dayne always seemed like more of idea than a person to me. Like he’s there to show you what a knight should be before throwing you back into the real world and showing you that knights like that don’t actually exist
Because it's a title not a person. Arthur is the latest.
You have to earn that sword
Dayne is not still alive in ASoIaF for the same reason *famous dead person in real life* isn't still alive. He wouldn't have just gone into a quiet retirement. He would have kept doing the thing that made him famous, and people would have recognized him.
This makes me want to start making content here because I have a theory around Arthur Dayne I haven't seen anywhere else. I rly enjoyed hearing yours, mine also involves him being dead in the current timeline (altho how he dies in mine is different than yours). Whenever I comment my theories under videos like this, so many ppl get upset at me, but I think I need to get used to it because it's never to late to start making content 😅 not even at my old age and not to toot my own horn but I think I'm on the right path, if I'm not correct. Don't we all feel this way lol. I'm wrong, I think your theory is the correct one.
The funniest thing is that Qhorin Halfhand is probably just an Ironborn. Shares the same name with Qhorin Volmark and a "Hand" epithet just like Harwyn Hardhand and Urron Redhand. Lost his fingers in an incident rather similar to the Finger Dance.
I have always thought that maybe Mance is Dane. Not the halfhand. In the books, Jon does training against 3 recruits until Mance challenges him to a duel. Jon struggles mightily during this duel. It is also believed that Gerold Hightower could be Tormund. Perhaps the halfhand is Oswell Went.
Even the best swordsman is not infallible.
Once there was a comment thread about who was the better kingsguard, mad kings or maegors, and they were saying how maegors are better talking about the 7 v 7 duel, but that ratio is still 1v1 compared to Ned's with 2.33v1
OG theory still stands. If Dane knows or thinks Jon is Azora then he would not come out of hiding to protect the other two because it would make Neds story of what happen questionable and if they think his story is false then what other things has he said and done are false and suspicion would fall on Jons parentage. Neds head thoughts of "they had been 7 against 3 but only two lived to ride away could mean Need talking about the 7 and not including the kings guard.
I love the footage from First Knight. Always loved that movie!
I can’t wait for someone to make a 30 minute theory of how Arthur Dayne is Quaithe.
What makes me believe Ser Arthur Dayne is still alive is that Dayne is a direct parallel to another character from another series that GRRM has publicly stated in many occasions was the primary inspiration for ASOIAF; the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series by Tad Williams. Ser Arthur Dayne mirrors the character of Sir Camaris, a legendary knight who had allegedly died in a shipwreck years before the events of the first novel, Dragonbone Chair. Sir Camaris was apart of the King's bodyguard and was the personal protector of the Queen. He wielded the ancestral sword of his family, Thorn, which was a sword of great power, being imbued with primordial magic by the Tinukeda'ya a thousand years before. AND AS I AM TYPING THIS I JUST REMEMBERED that Thorn was also forged from meteoric iron, just like Dawn.
[SPOILER]
Anywho, in the second book, Stone of Farewell, we find out that Sir Camaris is actually still alive. He survived the shipwreck and was not only suffering from amnesia, but was somewhat simple minded for unexplained reasons. In the next book, To Green Angel Tower, his memory and wits are returned to him, much to his disappointment. He had willingly had his memories locked away because he was so heartbroken when the queen died in childbirth. The child was Prince Josua, who we find out later is actually the son of Camaris and not King John like we believed for three novels. Camaris felt guilty for having betrayed his friend, the king, and felt immeasurable grief that because of the infidelity, the queen died in labor carrying Caramis' child.
There are already numerous parallels in ASOIAF to MST
Jon Snow = Simon Snowlock
Sandor Clagane's Hound Helm = the Hound Helmed Huntsmen Ingan Jager
Arya's sword Needle = Josua's rapier Naidel
Jon's Direwolf Ghost = Binabik's wolf Qantaqa
The Others = The Norns
Children of the forest = The Sithi
And I can keep going. The homages to MST in ASOIAF are so numerous.
If Ser Arthur Dayne isn't alive, it will be a huge disappointment.
Also "sword of the morning" is a title not a person. There have been many men with that title. Arthur just happens to be the latest
A theory video of wild conspiracies about how a character survived his apparent death to live as one of several possible alternate identities, only to end with "nah fam he probably dead", is the most George R. R. Martin theory video I could possibly imagine. Bra(a)vo(s).
„Not a negative thing is paired with his name.“
*Ahem
He watched the Mad King commit heinous crimes uncaringly and told Jaime Lannister he wasn’t allowed to judge the king for it. He allowed Rhaegar and Aerys to do whatever they want and backed them up the whole way
And helped in Rhaegar breaking his marriage vows, fathering a bastard and fighting for a dead king for no purpose killing numerous men with Ned.
The people in Westeros think he is ideal, but he was blinded by his man crush on Rhaegar aka the most overrated prat in the whole of the story.
@@neodigremo He's Dornish, there is no such thing as a good Dornish. I genuinely question why the Targaryens even wanted the place, what can in actually contribute to the kingdom as a whole besides a lot of sand?
Yeah and Jamie actually killed the king and was vilified for it, just like Dayne would have been. Barrister selmy was also there, nobody bad mouths him right?
I honestly love the theory that Reed did warg Arthur, but he still died, and it still fits with the theme of dishonorable fighting being more practical due to it being one of the taboos of skinchangers, and the drama of dying in another man's body would explain why Reed is so reclusive.
I'm not super in the books, I'm almost done the first one plus the UA-cam channels, but I can't see how he's alive from the memories, he had a duty to follow and died, end of story, if he survived I doubt he'd be tye dude we love
19:32 Forget weapons, fist fights are so hard vs 2 or (god forbid) more opponents.
I think it's plausible for Dayne to be hiding as the Halfhand because it would help sell it to Robert. Dayne may be immune from the law but Robert might find it odd that this paragon of honor didn't go down fighting, and maybe even suspicious of Jon
Also I feel like Dayne is remembered as this perfect and heroic swordsman with impeccable honor because that's how we tend to remember people that are well loved. Anything bad or questionable they've done gets forgotten
Arthur Dayne died at the trident. He wasn't at the tower of joy when Ned arrived. Rhaegar was insted of him.
Dayne lost the battle to Robert, perhaps because of it was agreed to, or he was just not in his zone wearing Rhaegars armor. Ruby glamour.
At the tower, Rhaegar told Ned what is going on, about the prince that was promised and they agreed that Ned should raise him as a bastard, so one day
Jon could join his father behind the wall, where Rhaegar still lives and has gathered a massive army, disquised as Mance Rayder.
Arthur Dayne serves as an allegory for honor and virtue in the world of ASOIAF very similar to Ned in book 1. The character that everyone deems as the peak of honor and righteousness is ultimately killed under unremarkable circumstances to portray that this isn't THAT type of story. Adherence to vows and honor will get you nowhere. Ned is killed on a whim by a psychopathic child and Dayne triumphs over insurmountable odds only to be stabbed in the back by the character that even the Freys pick on and bully for being small and weird. All of the characters who try to live by this code end up dying. Ned, Rob, Jon (to an extent) all get killed for sticking to this code. Notably, Jon is learning to "play the game" later in the story and we see a different side of him, where he's willing to play politics and participate in trickery. Ironically, he still gets killed for it but that's just the type of story this is and the type of author that George is. I'm not sure how there is still any speculation or doubt about Dayne's fate at this point. I think that fans REALLY want him to still be alive, so they invent any possible way - no matter how absurd or nonsensical of an explanation they have to come up with- for him to be alive, so they can see him pop out of the fray in all of his supreme glory, wielding Dawn and cracking skulls. But deep down, they know he's dead.
"Epi-tome" ha ha
Oi we'll have less of that! Thom already got me for it in the video 😂
the goat !!
I hadn’t thought about it that much until now but Arthur Dane losing a 7 on 3 fight to Ned and some northern dudes is kinda odd. The 2 knights with Dane were kings guard. They should’ve been worth 2 northern knights at least so to imagine Dane isn’t worth 3 or 4 himself is kinda crazy. Either Ned and Reed are WAY better fighters than they’re given credit or Dane is FAR worse.
Hmm also if Dawn was sent to Starfall to be kept safe for Jon because Arthur and Ned agreed that he was Azor Ahai why would Ned send him to the Wall instead of sending him to Starfall as a ward?
Just because Ser Allister Thorne and Ser Arthur Dayne are both Targaryan loyalists doesn't mean Dayne would let him in on why he was there. Just another loyalist captured in a war that they lost
If Arthur Dayne is alive, he's almost certainly in Essos. If Arthur Dayne is in Essos he's almost certainly with the Golden Company and would almost certainly be with Jon Connington and Young Griff. Jon would absolutely know who Arthur Dayne is. The guy's dead and is an allegory for chivalry, nobility and honor being dead.
I know it’s unlikely you’re gonna see this, but a future video idea I had was how could House Hightower/Targaryn with the Dance of the Dragons (since no side really won)
21:13 from what movie is this footage from?
What if Theon fled winterfell and joined the watch when Ramsey sieged him
Based on your theory , how do you explain house Dayne naming his heir after Ned?
Arthur either represents the death of the fairy tale, or is the personification of the falsehood of the fairy tale. Either way it's thematic that he dies by Ned and Howlands hands.
I agree with you guys that Arthur is dead. I don't agree with the context people keep putting Ned Stark in though. He's not merely an above average swordsman. He was trained since birth to fight with all the resources one could ever hope for. Jamie with both hands couldn't even wound Ned. So when people say "above average" it's not versus the average man. It's against the pinnacle of warriors. Think of it like an above average NBA player. They can still make an all-star team, and they can win if the best players aren't playing their best on that given day. And an above average NBA player would wipe the floor with scrubs on any random basketball court. Context can be everything sometimes.
Sir Arthur Dayne is a time traveling mermaid fetus faceless man named Azor Ahai.
It is known.
Whats the name of the movie playing in the background
theres a few, but the one i mainly use for Arthur dayne is - First Knight
Good to know that Liam can't pronounce Prodigy and Alliser also.
Wouldn't any theory regarding Arthur Dayne be disproven after Bran sees the events of the Tower of Joy from an unbiased, omnipotent perspective?
Absolutely. He’s just not gotten there in the books… yet 👀😂
@@TheFandomeClips I do hope they change something and do something with the character so we can chalk his ending in the show up to D&D being dumb, but GRRM has a proclivity for killing characters that are not morally grey
Looking shiny and chrome in your tinfoil hat guys! That's one way to get to Valhalla
May the 4th be with you Thom and Liam!
Great video as always!
I agree there is no chance Arthur Dayne would be hiding on his own while Viserys and Daenerys are alone wandering in Essos. He would have went to their aid as soon as he could.
Also he would have saw right through Young Griff as a Charlatan immediately
Babies can be born with hair. Eyes can change color, though, because there's not as much melanin in the irises.
Honestly I think he is dead but missed the most obvious way for him to live, the fanfiction ending where they make love not war
Sir Arthur Dane never fought Ned... It was an imposter a magic ghost! *Lol*
I like the mance raider theory
I think he got stabbed in the back and thats how ned won. This is mirrored when jaimes man strikes ned from behind. Martin loves this type of karma
The show shit the bed with dawn just as much as with the dornish master plan. Was literally right there to use as an amazing plot device. Dnd decided to shit on prince doran and the dornish in general and completly ignore the legendary status of the weilder of the sword dawn. That last one really pissed me off. Dawn isnt just a awesome sword. Its a sword you have to earn the right to wield. Thats why noone has it in got
The sword of the morning!
What's that random 80's looking Larp movie that keeps showing up? Is it related to GoT? XD I know the other one, with the p grumpy professor from that 70's movie.
Arthur Dayne is Ashara. He fell for Ned, and Ned for Ashara/Arthur. Ashara "committed sudoku" because Arthur needed to disappear to play his role later, and thus Ashara had to die alongside Arthur.
Lol jk
if half hand was dayne, wouldnt they be played by the same actor?
“I’d fucking keep it” lol
i really cant believe you dont put the most logic theory about Sir Artur Dayne, that one who said, DAYNE EQUAL MANCE RAYDER? i mean. that isnt ringing any bells for you????
Alliser*
Arthur Dayne is Craster
Man was really bottled up...
Mance is AD and I can defend it and that Jon is simply Ned's bastard, this is a well know theory that you conveniently ignored
Is it at all pertinent that Jaime idolized AD and trained under him and then possibly lost a hand (possibly) just like he did and had to fight with his off hand. And u didn't go into depth about the rest of the AD=QHH theory as it pertains to the other characters and their "WHY"
Yes. Arthur Dayne is Mance Rayder.
Too famous to remain hidden, especially when you have Thorne and other Targaryen loyalists at the wall.
I don't believe Ned & Howland Reed killed Arthur Dayne. They probably never even fought.
I find the mocking of the concept of knightly honor by Martin so childish e boorish.
Middle age was a period of turmoil, though not the "dark age" many think of.
Soldiers and knights in the middle ages knew war. They fought hard for their life and property. They faced death on the battlefield (and in the tavern) and they had they weapons and skills and companions to rely on to survive the next day.
These people who new war and death very well, they believed in honor. Mostly because they knew that you don't fight alone, you fight in groups, in battalions, in armies and you can't win or even survive if you can't trust your men and companions. Honor is a tool to survive and win wars.
Then you have a new york writer who never fought a day in his life other than for the last sandwich in a buffet saying "Honor is stupid URH URH URH look at me I'm so smart and edgy". Pitiful.
But what if Arthur Dayne, was a horse?
😂 that would explain SO MUCH Pacocheung! Think about it, it just makes perfect sense. I can't believe noone has pieced that together 😂
Thanks for watching! Liam
Maybe He is Manuel Neuer.
Thought Qohrin was Oswell Whent because he pledges that lady Whent is a a NW ally and I was cause of him
Its another good theroy Unreal. I think the truth of Qohrin is that he's just his own character and he's a natural badass.
Thanks for watching as always! Liam
the neck part of his spine has been pierced with a wide dagger, and his throat has been cut. Yeah, pretty sure he is still alive....
There was no fight. Dayne let them through and killed himself.
Arthur dayne sent a double so he was never at the tower of joy.. arthur dayne had a brother who just looks like dayne and brother died bot arthur
Say it with me Epeh-Toh-mee.