My friends son died of syphilis in 2007. He behaved like an untreated schizophrenic. He was in and out of psychiatric hospitals who simply stated he was non-compliant with his meds. He didn’t take them because he said they didn’t work and made him feel bad : His self reporting was sadly true as he had syphilis. That in the year 2007 a highly regarded psychiatric hospital failed to do STD testing and a result, their patient died of syphilis was stunning. The young man was only 27. He was physically a stunningly beautiful young man- I couldn’t really know him as his brain was so diseased by the time I met him-who passed his disease along to innumerable young men. I shared this as a PSA - no one should die of syphilis in this day and age , yet the numbers are up. Thanks for another great story Simon.
Frustrating AF, syphilis has been reliably treatable since the discovery of penicillin. No need for your friend's child or even Helen List to have died in either period. Let alone now.
That's awful. But to be fair to the psychiatric hospital, STI/STD testing is not standard (AFAIK, having been admitted a few times). They usually do take blood, but I think thats to measure med levels & maybe nutritional deficiencies. Did the hospital have reason to suspect syphilis?
@@effexwhoreprobably not. I was a self admission. I think the blood tests were as you said to check for drugs. It maybe should’ve crossed their mind if no one else in the family had shown symptoms as psychological disorders have a genetic component. Tragically psych treatment is super under staffed.
@@MrIrishpunk The psychiatric hospital in our area is called Brentwood and it tests all patients. They tested my 7 yr old son and my 32 yr old sister. They went in years apart too. At the time I thought it was strange to test a child so young but I guess they were thorough.
Here's a fun fact for you, Simon. John lists house possessed a Tiffany's original glass ceiling which was valuable enough to actually cover all the family debts. These murders were ultimately unnecessary even from a financial stand point. I really doubt that John list actually knew about that fact, though.
@@jimmygleaFun Fact: You have bad luck with running into douches on the internet. But to be fair, the default personality type on any media platform is douche. Source: I’m one of them.
Syphilis while treatable with antibiotics, particularly penicillin, is harder to diagnose in women than in men because in men the disease creates sores which are visible on the outside. Women can carry it for a much longer time without knowing it because the early signs of it develop internally and unseen. This is due to the difference in the physical location of the sex organs. If a man, like her first husband, gets it first he would become aware of it fairly quickly and has a moral imperative to notify any of his partners immediately because it can do a lot of damage if it goes undetected. Before antibiotics many well known public figures such as political leaders, authors, royalty and even “successful” criminals like Al Capone died prematurely after the disease first deteriorated them mentally. It was a nasty way to die. A woman could be spreading it much longer to her partners without knowing it. In the past it was quite a scourge reaching near plague status at times. I know TMI!!!
Based on Simon's narration, his wife had known about it before they had gotten married. Which is why she insisted that they go to Maryland to wed, as marital syphilis checks weren't done there. That and the lie about being pregnant indicates that while she was not at John List levels of sociopathy, she was also cold-hearted when it comes to getting what she wants. Not to mention that their children's lives were also put at risk.
I worked in a bank in Midlothian, VA. Robert Clark came in to cash checks every now and then. I tried to make small talk with him, because I have an uncle named Robert Clark. But he refused to engage-seemed socially awkward. When he was arrested and shown to be John List, I understood why he didn’t want to talk about the family name…
The book "Righteous Carnage" is a must read. I remember hearing of the crime when it occurred; John Jr. was about my age and even though I'm in California, it hit home.
"I don't imagine the FBI raid a lot of accounting firms" Well, actually I would suspect accounting firms are somewhat high on the list of places the FBI hits. They investigate a lot of white collar crime and money laundering. This is actually much more common than violent crime, it just isn't as interesting a subject for true crime and TV shows so it's not what you hear about.
Ding ding!! Funny that you mention that because Anthony Todt, the “John List” of 2019, killed his entire family because he was being investigated by the fbi for a white collar crime and didn’t want them to find out. It’s insane how similar the two cases are!! Except Anthony didn’t consider what he’d do after he killed them all, so he just lived with the corpses for about 3 weeks until the welfare check by police came a knockin’! No one wants to talk about how he committed insurance fraud, but he’s a popular name in the true crime community for the murders, that’s for sure!
If your accounting firm is literally next town over from FBI headquarters, maybe don't do anything illegal, because they will investigate you. They can literally just walk over and knock on the door and go back to their office all in one days work.
As someone who spent many years as a Financial Analyst, I can indeed tell you that you get a sweet pleasure when finding a rounding error in others work...
That's why I quit after only 14 months. I appreciate the intellectual traits and skills involved in the profession, but as a day to day work it just grinds up my sanity. Self-employed blue collar work gave me balance.
It's a shame the video didn't go into his past. He was raised in an incredibly intense enviroment where perfection was mandatory and where he had to appear as the perfect child for his parents to impress others and wasn't allowed to do anything that sullied that image. In his childhood failure was not tolerated and also nuance was dismissed. You had to present a perfect facade or else you were sinful. He wasn't allowed to play rough or in the dirt and wasn't allowed to bring friends with him. He had to study super hard all the time and had to talk with a super refined tone even when he was 4. As a teenager any inner feelings were dismissed as sinful and something you shouldn't be thinking about. Any notion of going out or dating was not allowed either nor was goofing off with teenage friends. He had to study super hard, find an early job and be the perfect family man. I always find that part the most interesting, how monsters like John List come to be. I think if anything John List is a lesson on the importance of tolerating imperfection and allow your kids to be kids rather than props to create the illusion you want. Basically John List was told that maintaining the illusion of perfection was more important than anything, seemingly including the very lives of your family.
Between John list and the Westfield watcher episodes, Simon’s goal must be to destroy the housing market of Westfield, New Jersey, so he can buy a home there for cheap.
I wouldn't say im a coward but I would never take part in a war I dont believe in. Also, the funny thing about war, in the past, only a handful of the soldiers would do all the killing, something like 2/3 or more would miss because they didn't wanna kill people. I learned this fun fact from some bald guy with 47 different channels actually. He looks a lot like this guy on this channel actually, lol.
The funeral talk at the dinner table made me laugh, as I also watch "ask a mortician" and she always talks about how you should have this talk with your family because you don't know when you will die
I used to love her videos, until I discovered the Reddit rabbit hole that outlined the terrible way she treats people. She's another Ellen DeGeneres type, super personable on camera but super b1tchy behind the scenes.
You don’t ask your CHILDREN how they want their bodies to go if they should die soon. That’s horrific. At least wait till their friggin brains are fully developed to have that talk 🤦🏻♀️ god forbid they kick the bucket early and as a parent you decide what to do with their soul-less body. I mean- the only ones that care about that stuff are the LIVING 😂
A good friend of ours is a mortician. She’s very open about her job. The first time we met over dinner, she went on and on about corpse bloat. Somehow we managed to make it through dinner lol.
I have to admit, at first I was like, “Do I really want to fit in another Simon channel?” Now it’s my damn favorite Simon channel!! Probably my favorite channel, period.
so nobody should let you know there's actually another new channel called Into the Shadows where he's covered such topics as the nazis escaping from Germany?
@@aceundead4750 oh I’ve checked it out. My favorite are the ones he lets his personality shine. I like TopTenz and appreciate the fact he does it more distanced but the darker stuff and the fun of formerly Business Blaze, now Brain Blaze, are the best.
About Helen's motivation. It helps to remember that until the mid 1970s a woman couldn't have her own bank account or credit. Also, she was a widow with a syphillis diagnosis and a small child. A lot of women got married and stayed married to awful men because they kind of didn't have a lot of other options. (That said, the false pregnancy and hiding her diagnosis was awful)
100%. My grandmother stayed married to my grandfather because even when she *could* have her own account, she was so conditioned by him to believe that she couldn't have one or know how to manage her money (she was a woman after all!), she never achieved financial independence. She also couldn't divorce him because she was raised in a very conservative religious environment - divorce is a sign of failure and divorced women would be socially ostracised, because the only function or worth a woman had was in keeping home life in order. The responsibility for a marriage breaking down lay entirely with the woman. Nevermind if they're being abused, you're supposed to deal with that being closed doors apparently 🙃🙃🙃
I grew up 2 blocks from them and knew them. My sister had been to party's in the ballroom with the previous owners. He messed up a whole generation of us in various ways. He became the Boogeyman because no one wanted to run into him. Let me know if you'd like to know more.
the profilers and interviews with him have clearly showed that he was mostly concerned about his reputation and not being humiliated. he didnt care about them- he cared about himself
My enjoyment Factor with Simon. 50% The stories 30% Simon's tangents 15% Simon mispronouncing American Towns, Cities, Places, Names, and the misuse of American Phrases and Indiums. 5% Simons hatred of Sports, SciFi, and Fantasy.
@@tripsupstairs I don't think I've ever seen him mention star trek but he's always missing the star wars references. I don't think he's familiar with LoTR either
I remember seeing an interview with Frank Bender (the artist) and Richard Walter (the criminal psychologist he consulted with on the project) and Frank said something like "a computer program can add five wrinkles because they're eight years older" but that he tried to kind of become the person as he worked on the bust. He consulted with Richard on List's personality to guide him with how the man would age and even referred to photos of List's older relatives so he could factor in genetics. Richard Walter is still around but sadly we lost Frank Bender in 2011. (Much of that's in the video but the way list was caught has always fascinated me so I babble a bit 😂)
This case is one of my favorite forensic files episodes. It is truly amazing how Frank Bender who made the aged bust of this truly evil man got it so on point, even down to the exact same type of glasses.
I was so happy at 22:23 when Simon confirmed that we still knew nothing about the crime. I had already rewound twice thinking I must be having blackouts or something, wtf, and had given up and hoped it would all make sense eventually! Phewwww...😄 Oh Simon... the feature worth 100k was not even the ballroom, let alone the whole house. The feature was ..the Stainglass Skylight. Just the skylight!!! I'm a little surprised that you didn't recognise the last name - Tiffany.
I was just talking to my mom about this case. It was on America’s Most Wanted when I was a kid…Simon, you gotta do an episode on Otis Toole: child killer. Killed the host’s son of AMW. Fascinating story
The "insanity" plea literally only applies to people who were incapable of making rational decisions including pre-planning and covering up their crimes.
This phrase has actually been applied to me successfully--partly because I have official and documented mental conditions that affect my ability to function normally. It's not something I'm proud of, though I do accept it and am constantly working to be a better person.
I would love to hear Simon and Callums take on the villisca iowa axe murder. All of the suspects are known axe murders who all happened to be in the small farming town at the same time. Super creepy religious elements to it too.
My dad was an accountant and he was kinda a wild one as a teen. Leather wearing, motorcycle riding, hard drinking in the fifties when it was still shocking. Granted, by the time he became an accountant, he was boring as all get out. He’d drink a glass of wine, get sleepy and go to bed. It’s a shame you showed the bust of John List with the photo of young John List. You don’t see the insane similarities between the bust and how John List had aged. The bust maker was insanely good. He got John down to his frown lines.
I've know the John List story for a while now, but I enjoy l listening to Simon's narration of these stories because I'll hear some small fact I didn't know and Simon's little sidetracks he goes on make things so much more enjoyable.
I just saw this on another channel but Simon makes everything his own, loved his take. I want a t-shirt with "Dude...dude...No! " Simon Whistler on it.
Forensic Files did an episode on John List, but Callum uncovers so much more information than TV ever does and he does it twenty years after the fact...
The Korean War is overlooked so often it's literally called "The Forgotten War" the only reason I knew about it as a kid was because my grandpa used to tell me about his time in it. Public school sure as hell didn't teach me anything about it.
Every year they taught history from the beginning. By the time they got close to present day, the school year was over. Vietnam was the last war when I was in school. It was never talked about unless a former hippie substitute brought it up. I did write a report on the Korean War in High School so I was able to learn more about it in depth.
Simon , you’ll become much acquainted with a very looong list of criminals (mostly murderers) if you binge on the old Forensic Files TV show. The episodes are only 30 minutes long, so you can cover a lot of ground in a relatively short period of time. I’ve seen their version of the John List story several times.
Thank you for this video. It is excellent Mom's side of the family lived down the street from the List family, and this crime shook them all, especially my grandma. She told me this story often actually. She could not accept that this man could commit this crime and get away with it. Even after she moved away, she followed every article and report about the case. She of course watched America's Most Wanted that night, and was amazed by the forensic sculpture's work. When List was finally caught, she went to each of her neighbors homes, and said "I just need to tell someone, but they caught John List." After that, she became fascinated by crime investigation and forensic, which was something we both shared (when I got older). She was always reading up on the latest techniques, and would send me articles about solved cold cases. Anytime a new documentary came out about List, we'd watch it together. Each time, she'd tell me about the day she went from neighbor to neighbor telling them List was caught. And at the end of each documentary, she'd say how grateful she was for all the technology that helps us to find such horrible people. Watching this was oddly nostalgic. Simon and Callum, she would have loved this, and would probably also have said "thank you for calling him a dickhead."
Fun fact about the Army Finance Corps, where a close relative of mine served nearly 20 years at the same time as List: War accounting is not much more exciting than the peacetime version! It's still a lot of payroll and purchasing and government forms. There IS a lot of money involved, because the US Army is LORGE, but most of my relative's accounting war stories are things like "the week we paid every soldier on base in two-dollar bills to prove soldiers were really spending money at local businesses". Still, he liked it a lot better than his previous assignment, which was fixing airplane engines. There was SOME danger and intrigue involved (a safe getting blown up as the enemy approached, parachuting into a jungle with gold to bribe a warlord), but it always happened to people he knew, not him. In his opinion, if finance was life-threatening, he was doing it wrong. He was also deliriously happy to be married to his high-school sweetheart, who was smarter and tougher than he was and they both knew it. They lived to a ripe old age together. In conclusion, don't be too full of yourself, marry the most fabulous person who'll have you, keep your head out of your ass, and you won't end up on this show. 😂
I think Callum's script was incorrect at that part. I have watched other videos about John List and they say it was John Jr. who was playing at the soccer game.
3:30 - Chapter 1 - Who was John List ? 10:25 - Chapter 2 - Man on the run 14:50 - Chapter 3 - The bust 17:35 - Chapter 4 - The bust 22:30 - Chapter 5 - Westfield bound 26:50 - Chapter 6 - Helen big reveal 29:20 - Chapter 7 - John list little secret 31:55 - Chapter 8 - The horror of a breeze knoll 34:25 - Chapter 9 - Hell house 37:05 - Chapter 10 - The massacre at breeze knoll 38:50 - Chapter 11 - The gospel according to John 41:55 - Chapter 12 - My assignment for the day 43:15 - Chapter 13 - The disappearing act 48:05 - Chapter 14 - Judgment day 49:25 - Chapter 15 - The trial 52:15 - Wrap up 54:35 - Dismembered appendices
"If you were a high flying accountant at one company, I'm sure you could at least be a medium flying accountant at another company." Well that resonated with me in a major way lol
I live in the U.S. A burned down house sat on my street for a decade. One neighbor even put together a letter to send to the county and went around having neighbors sign it saying the house was an eyesore, attracting pests, and bringing down property prices. The county still did nothing. Finally one of our neighbors bought the property, tore the house down, rebuilt, and sold the property.
When you need a non-murder "palette cleansing" episode, a young girl in a tiny Manitoba village called Easterville catfished an NBA player and a model simultaneously (pretending to the model while talking to the NBA player and pretending to be the NBA player while talking to the model) basically just for kicks. There was no monetary gain or anything. It was kind of recent. Within the last five or six years, I think. An entertaining story for when the murder gets to be a bit much.
I *really* wish there was more non-murder true crime content. I'm not really here for the gruesome stories, I'm here for the mysteries, the investigation, etc. There are so many weird, interesting, funny crimes to talk about which aren't total downers.
I just looked it up! Apparently there was some financial gain, though. The catfish also pretended to be the model’s mom on an email to the NBA player threatening to expose him to he police for his relationship with the model that was, in fact, 17 years old at the time. So his lawyer reached a deal with the “mom” and sent her 3000 dollars to keep it all under wraps. The catfish was discovered not long after that. Crazy story, thanks for the recommendation!
@@derp195 I like that the Casual Criminalist has those non-fatal episodes about heists and such. It's the only true crime podcast/channel to my knowledge that doesn't solely cover murders (although I only watch a handful of true crime channels).
@@christinebenson518 Yes! Especially seeing the quaint, antiquated ways people could get away with things back then. "So he started going by his middle name and moved one county over. He then became the largest manufacturer of bakelite rotary phones, second only to Bell, and frequently appeared in his television and radio ads. That however, would not be his undoing..."
Frank Bender, the artist who created the sculpture, was a member of the Vidocq Society, a group that was dedicated to solving cold crimes. A couple of books have been written about Bender and his work with the society.
So I was listening to this while cooking, and kept thinking, “Hold on, did I miss what John List did? I’m so confused right now. What crime did he commit??” So about 30 minutes in, when Whistler says that part about stringing this along and how we don’t know what the guy did yet, I was like oh thank god. I thought I’d blacked out an entire section of the video somehow. 😝
I try so hard to listen to these episodes but they constantly make me fall asleep. Simon’s soothing voice lulls me to sleep like a baby on a bumpy drive 😭
I caught this one earlier through Castbox. The podcast experience is very recommended if you like to multitask while listening to your medically recommended dose of Simon.
Hey, Callum got a fact wrong. John List was not diagnosed with OCD; he was diagnosed with OCPD aka Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. These are two different diagnoses. Individuals with OCPD do not see a problem with the actions that result from their disorder, whereas individuals with OCD do experience distress from their OCD symptoms. It's an important difference which makes List's actions make 'more sense,' if you will.
I remember that episode of "America's Most Wanted". They stated the type of glasses he would probably wear, hairstyle and his personality. The FBI did a profile of him that turned out accurate. Also remembered soon after the news stated he was caught. It helped Adam Walsh's show immensely and he thanked the public for the support.
Sorry to be pedantic, but it was John Walsh who presented the show, Adam was his little boy who was murdered, which in turn led to the creation of the show
He still would have done it. Selling the skylight wouldn’t save the wife and family from the devil. Do you think this cold, obsessive accountant who made sure to get every penny due on his mother’s stolen savings bonds didn’t know the value of his own house?
1 minute in….You. Are. Hilarious. “I deleted that picture.” And Callum, you are freaking brilliant. Thank you both so much for this delightful combination every week! This is the best coverage I’ve ever seen of this case, the most detailed and palatable version of such a horrific circumstance. Thank you for your hard work!
I have heard of this guy before and was like gosh why until the bust was mentioned. This guy was seriously messed up and I cant wait to hear how Callum tells the story and how Simon reacts.
Frank Bender actually solved a non-trivial number of crimes with art. He's done some other remarkable reconstructions, primarily in the field of memorial statuary for unknown victims of slavery and the holocaust.
I can't afford a Louis Comfort Tiffany paperweight, not to mention a LCT skylight on my ballroom. That skylight was my first thought on hearing that the house burned down.
_"Why didn't (he) get a lower level job as an accountant? At least make 'some' money."_ That's the thing with office workers. Once they reach a certain level they can't even fathom going down a level. It would be worse than death.
"If you hear anything about us 'going on vacation', it's probably because he called us all." In Australia, if a teacher (any adult in a school setting) heard that in a serious or potentially serious tone they are mandatorily obligated to report it by law. That law may be a nightmare and has likely caused some issues in good families but I know it's saved kids too. It may just be my state but I think all states have mandatory reporting laws
@@CoyoteWildFlower We do have it now but at the time of these murders it wasn't the law. It wasn't until about the late 70's that child abuse became a public topic and laws were passed requiring doctors, nurses and teachers to report suspected child abuse or missing students .
@@upbeat_garbage0308 They do, but Americans quite love their child abuse and hearing a quote like that one from a student might not alarm the average teacher. Source: me, a past abused child who called attention to it constantly and even arranged guidance counselor visits to report it all throughout elementary, middle, and even high school only to get a response of: "eh I don't see a bruise today and that dent in your skull totally isn't suspicious, so not my problem. just hold out until you're eighteen when you can move" every. time. ...TL;DR I wouldn't have much faith in any American mandatory reporting updates
"America Got Wanted" sounds like a cardinal sin for one of Simon's tips when it comes to crime-ing. Don't write down crimes; don't brag about you crimes; don't perform you crimes on national television with a judge panel.
I find that practise completely bonkers. There was a creep who murdered his parents, chopped them up, put his mom's head in a pot on the stove and dissolved their other parts in plastic tub totes full of acid, and he wrote every single thing down. And he was supposed to be clever. The journal and lists of his to-do activities for death day, were just stupid. 1. Get plastic tub totes at Walmart 2. Get sulphuric acid to dissolve bones 3. More sick shit 4. Kill parents 5. Etc. Just dumb.
The John List story is the first time I had ever heard the term "devout Lutheran," and I grew up Lutheran. I am still confused by that, and think the Lutheran church probably took a hit in popularity after this.
I for one found myself thinking, "Please don't be part of the same synod as me!" Although there were also parts of the episode where I thought, "Yup, that's totally something someone in my synod would do."😖
Self-effacement to the point of self-harm and eventually psychosis. Yeah that's Lutherans alright. If you want sociopathic disregard for predestined sinners, that's the Calvinists. Both Ham doctrine and the Prosperity Gospel rolled out of _that_ synod.
I normally listen via Spotify so haven't left a review. I really enjoy Simon's presentation of true crime situations. His use of humor balanced with a serious discussion of the outcome and consequences keeps me engaged. I have yet to miss an episode.
There is a reason the Korean War is called "the forgotten war" it was a war where the UK and the USA supported South Korea, and China and the Soviet Union supported North Korea.. it was an unpopular war as ww2 just came to an end and people were tire of fighting.. had the UK and USA kept fighting ww3 would have been the result.. it seemed possible that we could have had 3 world wars happen in less then 50 years, And sadly nukes were a thing already, so ww3 would been devastating for the world. Not that the prior wars was all sunshine and rainbows, but the nukes would have made it high civilian casualties at a level that had never been seen before
I have a relative who was a classmate of Patricia, and it was really traumatic for everyone in their school when the murders were discovered. My relative was so delighted when "America's Most Wanted" helped to catch List that she became a devoted viewer for as long as the show was aired. Also -- if List had only known how valuable the Tiffany ceiling was, he could have sold it for hundreds of thousands of dollars and solved all his money troubles. Which would have beaten killing 5 people and having to go on the run, surely.
Best TCC script to date, really perfectly paced and well-constructed! I was familiar with this story from way back when it was on America's [Got] Wanted, but the presentation here with the slow build to the horrific reveal was SO well done. Callum took what was already the most disturbing, creepiest story ever and still really managed to crank the creepy to 11. Cheers team!!
I agree with your assessment that people never actually believe their doppelgangers look like them, but there is a difference here. This wasn't someone else made to look like him. The base for the sculpture was his real face. Even if some small details were wrong the core of the art was him.
Advising someone to get a stress ball or a massage moments after killing a child is perhaps the darkest and most twisted thing Simon has ever accidentally uttered. (Allegedly.)
Loved this episode. I was familiar with this story and I learned something new!! I was was waiting anxiously for you to get to the point of what he really did just for Simone's reaction!!
I used to regularly watch "America's Most Wanted." It was hosted by John Walsh. His young son was abducted and murdered. It took years to find the guy. The idea was to get help from a national audience to find these people. One famous case they solved was the "Just Sweats" (store) insurance fraud/murder case. There's a movie about the crime and search for the criminals, "If Looks Could Kill." It includes how John Walsh and "AMW" got involved. The case was finally solved after a search of several years.
Yeah, I can feel that whole "No I don't look like them!" thing. I have a doppleganger, she has the same name, way of walking, speaking, and dressing, the whole shebang. I know all that because I met the mother of her ex boyfriend, who at first thought I was her. But I don't think I look that much like her. (?) My sister saw someone who looked like me from behind at an even we were both at, maybe it was her? And I'm pretty sure she was at a shop at the university I went to just a few minutes before I was there, because I walked up to them one day and they said "weren't you just here?" when I hadn't been, and yet I never ran into her at college. Or if I have, I haven't realized it because I don't see the resemblance like other people do. But if I really haven't, it's almost like we're fated to keep crossing paths without ever meeting, confusing people as we just try to live our lives.
"Air quotes" is how I've always heard the sarcastic quotation marks you make with your fingers called, even when you're typing them out. Also Midlothian sounds like a descriptor in Star Wars. "A fine Midlothian blaster."
When typing or referencing typeface they are "quotation marks". "Air quotes" describes the act of physically forming the quotation marks (in the air) while speaking.
I just heard the John List story on another UA-cam channel and it’s always amazing to me to hear the same story told by 2 different t people. The differences they choose to highlight, the details they go into etc… I also love Kalamazoo!! I lived there for 6 years!
Simon: “Don’t write down your crimes!” Also Simon: “If you wear glasses, wear contacts. If your bald get a hair transplant or wig” I mean… he’s not writing down his crimes….
He literally sent a letter confessing to his pastor. He just wrote them down in the proper way. By the time the letter arrived at the pastor's mailbox, List was already going with a headstart.
I was confused about that for a while there, but IMO he must have left the letters to be discovered with the bodies. He said they hadn't been found for a month, so it's either that or the family and pastor all got letters confessing to monstrous acts, yet were unmoved to intervene haha
@@Bluesit32that’s not accurate. He left the letter inside of the mansion to be found when the bodies were. Otherwise yeah^, that would mean the pastor got the letter wi the in a few days and just decided “meh, I’m good” 😂
What most call "quotation marks" are double quote marks. The single quotation mark is traditionally used for a quote within a quote, some metaphorical titles, sarcasm, and to indicate a dubious attribute. It was much more common in Edwardian Age English, and your use of it in the title is (unsurprisingly) quite correct.
The reason you wouldn't take time to hide the bodies (etc) is: back in these days, police districts did not communicate with eachother, so the best thing you can do to avoid being caught for a crime was to get as far away, as quickly as possible
I get that swings and roundabouts are about equal gains and losses, but that is only if you have never navigated a roundabout in Texas. The losses are much higher when everyone treats the yield sign as a suggestion.
@@fortheloveofcreepsx132 ah, now see that makes more sense. I’ve actually always wondered about that. I spent a bit of time in Scotland and I don’t think I ever saw those where I was. We call those merry-go-rounds where I’m from. Thank you! (I still think it is beyond stupid to have traffic roundabouts in Texas, however, because four young dude bros all driving F150 extended cab, extended bed, extended whatever trucks are not going to yield and woe to the small car who might be near. 😃)
as a 6yo in 1970 and already a voracious reader of newspapers I found this more disturbing than the Manson Cult. I remember my father believed a different sort of family, primarily of Sicilian origin killed the List family and hauled John off for unknown reasons.
I know, right? Simon, I'm pretty sure if you see examples of his work you'll recognize them; I suspect you simply don't know the artist's name. Pretty much if you think of an example of a landscape or flowers in stained glass from around the turn of the last century, you're probably picturing his work. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffany_glass
The difference between Simon’s “he looks nothing like me” and John-Bob List-Clark is that the criminal had a reason for that paranoia. Here he was, watching a segment on a tv show using his old name, about his old life, and about the crimes he committed that he so desperately wanted to hide. He was on edge and anxious, getting that “oh no” feeling
I've always wondered if List contracted Syphillis from his wife and it exacerbated his existing mental health issues. (not saying it excuses his crimes!). I'm also curious why Callum didn't bring up the term "Family Nihilist"that was so frequently used in discussing List's actions and justification. (Not a great topic of conversation, but very interesting when discussing a murderer who targets only the family members that he supports)
Ah yes, I've listened to this three times now but it's time for my obligatory watch of this podcast's UA-cam video so I can figure out what all those extra noises Jen throws in are about...
I stumbled across this and thought, “hey I don’t think I’ve seen this.” And then you said I was watching in 2024 and made me spill my drink.
SAME
also same.
@@stitch009 samies
2024 here too.
yeah, me too
My friends son died of syphilis in 2007. He behaved like an untreated schizophrenic. He was in and out of psychiatric hospitals who simply stated he was non-compliant with his meds. He didn’t take them because he said they didn’t work and made him feel bad : His self reporting was sadly true as he had syphilis. That in the year 2007 a highly regarded psychiatric hospital failed to do STD testing and a result, their patient died of syphilis was stunning. The young man was only 27. He was physically a stunningly beautiful young man- I couldn’t really know him as his brain was so diseased by the time I met him-who passed his disease along to innumerable young men. I shared this as a PSA - no one should die of syphilis in this day and age , yet the numbers are up. Thanks for another great story Simon.
Frustrating AF, syphilis has been reliably treatable since the discovery of penicillin. No need for your friend's child or even Helen List to have died in either period. Let alone now.
Jesus! That's terrifying!
That's awful. But to be fair to the psychiatric hospital, STI/STD testing is not standard (AFAIK, having been admitted a few times). They usually do take blood, but I think thats to measure med levels & maybe nutritional deficiencies. Did the hospital have reason to suspect syphilis?
@@effexwhoreprobably not. I was a self admission. I think the blood tests were as you said to check for drugs. It maybe should’ve crossed their mind if no one else in the family had shown symptoms as psychological disorders have a genetic component. Tragically psych treatment is super under staffed.
@@MrIrishpunk The psychiatric hospital in our area is called Brentwood and it tests all patients. They tested my 7 yr old son and my 32 yr old sister. They went in years apart too. At the time I thought it was strange to test a child so young but I guess they were thorough.
Hi Simon! Listening to this in 2024😂 that intro was WILD
"You could be listening to this in 2024..."
Well...... 😂
Same dude Holy moly
Thank God covid isn't like it used to be in 2021
Here in 24
ya’ll lame lol it hasn’t been that long
Also watching now in 2024, lol!
Here's a fun fact for you, Simon. John lists house possessed a Tiffany's original glass ceiling which was valuable enough to actually cover all the family debts. These murders were ultimately unnecessary even from a financial stand point. I really doubt that John list actually knew about that fact, though.
@@speurtighearnamacterik8230 I will never understand people believing documents from thousands of years ago.
Headed to the comments to mention this but have been beaten to it, haha.
Is that not what he talks about at 23:30?
Here’s an even funner fact…”fun fact guy” in the comment section is always a flaming douche.
@@jimmygleaFun Fact: You have bad luck with running into douches on the internet.
But to be fair, the default personality type on any media platform is douche. Source: I’m one of them.
Syphilis while treatable with antibiotics, particularly penicillin, is harder to diagnose in women than in men because in men the disease creates sores which are visible on the outside. Women can carry it for a much longer time without knowing it because the early signs of it develop internally and unseen. This is due to the difference in the physical location of the sex organs. If a man, like her first husband, gets it first he would become aware of it fairly quickly and has a moral imperative to notify any of his partners immediately because it can do a lot of damage if it goes undetected. Before antibiotics many well known public figures such as political leaders, authors, royalty and even “successful” criminals like Al Capone died prematurely after the disease first deteriorated them mentally. It was a nasty way to die. A woman could be spreading it much longer to her partners without knowing it. In the past it was quite a scourge reaching near plague status at times. I know TMI!!!
Based on Simon's narration, his wife had known about it before they had gotten married. Which is why she insisted that they go to Maryland to wed, as marital syphilis checks weren't done there. That and the lie about being pregnant indicates that while she was not at John List levels of sociopathy, she was also cold-hearted when it comes to getting what she wants. Not to mention that their children's lives were also put at risk.
and fun fact! the blood test you get even today for your marriage license is a syphilis test
@@fabricdragon I recently got married in Washington and we didn't need a test
@@fabricdragon What happens if you actually do have an STD? Are you not allowed to get married? Or is that fact just shared with the wanna-be spouse?
@@benjaminplotke4716 I've been married 7 times in Alaska never had a blood test.
I worked in a bank in Midlothian, VA. Robert Clark came in to cash checks every now and then. I tried to make small talk with him, because I have an uncle named Robert Clark. But he refused to engage-seemed socially awkward. When he was arrested and shown to be John List, I understood why he didn’t want to talk about the family name…
The book "Righteous Carnage" is a must read. I remember hearing of the crime when it occurred; John Jr. was about my age and even though I'm in California, it hit home.
"I don't imagine the FBI raid a lot of accounting firms"
Well, actually I would suspect accounting firms are somewhat high on the list of places the FBI hits. They investigate a lot of white collar crime and money laundering. This is actually much more common than violent crime, it just isn't as interesting a subject for true crime and TV shows so it's not what you hear about.
2023 says the feds don’t investigate $$$ at all.
Ding ding!! Funny that you mention that because Anthony Todt, the “John List” of 2019, killed his entire family because he was being investigated by the fbi for a white collar crime and didn’t want them to find out. It’s insane how similar the two cases are!! Except Anthony didn’t consider what he’d do after he killed them all, so he just lived with the corpses for about 3 weeks until the welfare check by police came a knockin’! No one wants to talk about how he committed insurance fraud, but he’s a popular name in the true crime community for the murders, that’s for sure!
Accounting firms with conservative clients
If your accounting firm is literally next town over from FBI headquarters, maybe don't do anything illegal, because they will investigate you. They can literally just walk over and knock on the door and go back to their office all in one days work.
For reference Quantico in VA and Richmond VA are on the same highway. About 20 to 30 mile drive.
As someone who spent many years as a Financial Analyst, I can indeed tell you that you get a sweet pleasure when finding a rounding error in others work...
Also the FBI definitely raid accounting offices.
this comment made my day 💯👌
Yes!!!!
Probably the most exciting thing of the day. I appreciate what they do but couldn't do it myself.
That's why I quit after only 14 months.
I appreciate the intellectual traits and skills involved in the profession, but as a day to day work it just grinds up my sanity.
Self-employed blue collar work gave me balance.
“A man should be self sufficient and provide for his family... AND PRAISE JESUS!!” Had me crying on the floor 😂😂😂😂😂
Lol same. It's funny to me cuz there's really ppl out there just like that
I'm Christian, still funny because most of us don't like the nutcases that tend to be our representation in media.
@@abigailblackstock4928amen my friend!!
Now do white suburban Americans and climate change
It's a shame the video didn't go into his past. He was raised in an incredibly intense enviroment where perfection was mandatory and where he had to appear as the perfect child for his parents to impress others and wasn't allowed to do anything that sullied that image. In his childhood failure was not tolerated and also nuance was dismissed. You had to present a perfect facade or else you were sinful. He wasn't allowed to play rough or in the dirt and wasn't allowed to bring friends with him. He had to study super hard all the time and had to talk with a super refined tone even when he was 4. As a teenager any inner feelings were dismissed as sinful and something you shouldn't be thinking about. Any notion of going out or dating was not allowed either nor was goofing off with teenage friends. He had to study super hard, find an early job and be the perfect family man.
I always find that part the most interesting, how monsters like John List come to be. I think if anything John List is a lesson on the importance of tolerating imperfection and allow your kids to be kids rather than props to create the illusion you want. Basically John List was told that maintaining the illusion of perfection was more important than anything, seemingly including the very lives of your family.
Between John list and the Westfield watcher episodes, Simon’s goal must be to destroy the housing market of Westfield, New Jersey, so he can buy a home there for cheap.
Honestly good for him
Yeah, and that isn't a huge town for both those things to have happened there.
Now that's a conspiracy theory I can get behind!
Good plan. Well, except, I mean, New Jersey. Really?
Of all the places you could live in the US...there are 49 other states that aren't NJ.
To quote Monty Python: "Jenkins are you a pacifist? No sir, I'm a coward."
I wouldn't say im a coward but I would never take part in a war I dont believe in.
Also, the funny thing about war, in the past, only a handful of the soldiers would do all the killing, something like 2/3 or more would miss because they didn't wanna kill people.
I learned this fun fact from some bald guy with 47 different channels actually. He looks a lot like this guy on this channel actually, lol.
@@Cman04092 That's a lot of channels...
The funeral talk at the dinner table made me laugh, as I also watch "ask a mortician" and she always talks about how you should have this talk with your family because you don't know when you will die
I lost my mom last week and I can say absolutely do this ! And update or create a will !!!!!!
Bantham’s head!!
I used to love her videos, until I discovered the Reddit rabbit hole that outlined the terrible way she treats people. She's another Ellen DeGeneres type, super personable on camera but super b1tchy behind the scenes.
You don’t ask your CHILDREN how they want their bodies to go if they should die soon. That’s horrific. At least wait till their friggin brains are fully developed to have that talk 🤦🏻♀️ god forbid they kick the bucket early and as a parent you decide what to do with their soul-less body. I mean- the only ones that care about that stuff are the LIVING 😂
A good friend of ours is a mortician. She’s very open about her job.
The first time we met over dinner, she went on and on about corpse bloat. Somehow we managed to make it through dinner lol.
I have to admit, at first I was like, “Do I really want to fit in another Simon channel?” Now it’s my damn favorite Simon channel!! Probably my favorite channel, period.
so nobody should let you know there's actually another new channel called Into the Shadows where he's covered such topics as the nazis escaping from Germany?
@@aceundead4750 oh I’ve checked it out. My favorite are the ones he lets his personality shine. I like TopTenz and appreciate the fact he does it more distanced but the darker stuff and the fun of formerly Business Blaze, now Brain Blaze, are the best.
Thanks :)
Can't recall how/when I realised that I'd become a Simon addict;for; it's now claimed both my better half and granddaughter (being 11 she obviously doesn't watch his darker shows where Simon is more 'real'). We are currently waiting for the release of "Science Stuff with Simon" and so obvious I can't believe Fact Boy hasn't done it yet "Simon Says;"©
This channel was my first forray into all that is Simon, in a not creepy way. But by saying that it makes it creepy. LOL. Simon is rubbing off on me.
I feel Simon could read the ingredients on the back of a cereal box and it would still be entertaining.
I do watch his cereal adds without skipping
Sounds like his next channel
His Business/ Brain Blaze magic spoon ads
He's done this! And yes, I've purchased Magic Spoon several times because of it.
Simon tells us of cereal killers, but he's not one. Allegedly.
Raise your hand if you’re listening in 2024 👋🏻
Lol. Been catching up on old episodes.😂
🙋♀️
🙋♀️
Just popped up on my feed lol
🙋♀
About Helen's motivation. It helps to remember that until the mid 1970s a woman couldn't have her own bank account or credit. Also, she was a widow with a syphillis diagnosis and a small child. A lot of women got married and stayed married to awful men because they kind of didn't have a lot of other options. (That said, the false pregnancy and hiding her diagnosis was awful)
100%. My grandmother stayed married to my grandfather because even when she *could* have her own account, she was so conditioned by him to believe that she couldn't have one or know how to manage her money (she was a woman after all!), she never achieved financial independence. She also couldn't divorce him because she was raised in a very conservative religious environment - divorce is a sign of failure and divorced women would be socially ostracised, because the only function or worth a woman had was in keeping home life in order. The responsibility for a marriage breaking down lay entirely with the woman. Nevermind if they're being abused, you're supposed to deal with that being closed doors apparently 🙃🙃🙃
Good grief. We really need to make sure we don't roll back that way.
Ahhh, the good ole days. We had morals back then… 😝
It was actually the mid sixties..just saying..
@@scottytoohotty7617 exactly I had a bank account mid 70s for my babysitting money to go in and I was 12
"I'm a very smoothbrain."
-Simon Whistler
I think we're all a little smooth brained, on the inside
@@SegwayBossk I’d hate to be smooth brained on the outside.
Brain Blazing does that
@@derp195 - 😅😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
He has obviously retained information from past videos. Calling himself a smoothbrain means he realizes he knows how much he doesn’t know.
I grew up 2 blocks from them and knew them. My sister had been to party's in the ballroom with the previous owners.
He messed up a whole generation of us in various ways. He became the Boogeyman because no one wanted to run into him. Let me know if you'd like to know more.
Um…. I definitely would!
Sorry he wrecked you all so badly, though
@@83gemmhe left us all hanging!
@@83gemmI guess we are out of luck 😢
Where he at
I NEED to know more
the profilers and interviews with him have clearly showed that he was mostly concerned about his reputation and not being humiliated. he didnt care about them- he cared about himself
My enjoyment Factor with Simon.
50% The stories
30% Simon's tangents
15% Simon mispronouncing American Towns, Cities, Places, Names, and the misuse of American Phrases and Indiums.
5% Simons hatred of Sports, SciFi, and Fantasy.
@@tripsupstairs but he doesn't like star wars. It appears he's seen one of the prequels and the force awakens.
@@tripsupstairs I don't think I've ever seen him mention star trek but he's always missing the star wars references. I don't think he's familiar with LoTR either
@0:06 Nice prediction Simon, I am watching this in 2024!
This sculpture was an unbelievable match to John List. Extraordinarily this artist captured the elderly likeness of List.
A miracle hit!
I remember watching the episode when they brought the sculpture out.
I remember seeing an interview with Frank Bender (the artist) and Richard Walter (the criminal psychologist he consulted with on the project) and Frank said something like "a computer program can add five wrinkles because they're eight years older" but that he tried to kind of become the person as he worked on the bust. He consulted with Richard on List's personality to guide him with how the man would age and even referred to photos of List's older relatives so he could factor in genetics. Richard Walter is still around but sadly we lost Frank Bender in 2011. (Much of that's in the video but the way list was caught has always fascinated me so I babble a bit 😂)
This case is one of my favorite forensic files episodes. It is truly amazing how Frank Bender who made the aged bust of this truly evil man got it so on point, even down to the exact same type of glasses.
I love the little cherry on top that it’s ‘cuz he didn’t want to look vain but totally was
Frank Bender is one of my heroes.
@@oscaranderson5719 lol ikr?!
@@CoyoteWildFlower mine too
I actually remember watching that episode of America's Most Wanted way back when and yes, the likeness is uncanny.
I was so happy at 22:23 when Simon confirmed that we still knew nothing about the crime. I had already rewound twice thinking I must be having blackouts or something, wtf, and had given up and hoped it would all make sense eventually! Phewwww...😄
Oh Simon... the feature worth 100k was not even the ballroom, let alone the whole house. The feature was ..the Stainglass Skylight. Just the skylight!!! I'm a little surprised that you didn't recognise the last name - Tiffany.
Jen, if you see this, I love the "Simon is on a tangent again" music.
I was just talking to my mom about this case. It was on America’s Most Wanted when I was a kid…Simon, you gotta do an episode on Otis Toole: child killer. Killed the host’s son of AMW. Fascinating story
I was around 6 when Adam Walsh was kidnapped and I think it traumatized most kids and parents in that decade.
@@heatherpuckett1135 So many of us were that AMW was created.
IVE NEVER HEARD OF THIS BUT THIS SOUNDS LIKE A CRAZY CASE
They're now thinking that Ottis Toole was lying when he said he killed Adam Walsh. He claimed to have killed a lot of people, but there's no proof.
@@zarasbazaar more recently there was some misfiled evidence that showed Adam's blood was in Ottis's car
Frank bender is an ABSOLUTE legend. I learned of his existence from the book 'The Murder Room': if you love true crime I highly recommend this book.
I read it! Terrific book!
The "insanity" plea literally only applies to people who were incapable of making rational decisions including pre-planning and covering up their crimes.
This phrase has actually been applied to me successfully--partly because I have official and documented mental conditions that affect my ability to function normally. It's not something I'm proud of, though I do accept it and am constantly working to be a better person.
Yes it shouldn't apply to eccentric folks.
Well... Yeah? Have any more obvious tidbits of legal advice for us?
I would love to hear Simon and Callums take on the villisca iowa axe murder. All of the suspects are known axe murders who all happened to be in the small farming town at the same time. Super creepy religious elements to it too.
I would love this! It sounds extremely interesting!
the fact that there are multiple suspects who are known axe murderers is mad. I'm going for a look into this myself 👀
Funny that I'm seeing this now and Simon just uploaded the Villisca ax murders today...
My dad was an accountant and he was kinda a wild one as a teen. Leather wearing, motorcycle riding, hard drinking in the fifties when it was still shocking. Granted, by the time he became an accountant, he was boring as all get out. He’d drink a glass of wine, get sleepy and go to bed.
It’s a shame you showed the bust of John List with the photo of young John List. You don’t see the insane similarities between the bust and how John List had aged. The bust maker was insanely good. He got John down to his frown lines.
I've know the John List story for a while now, but I enjoy l listening to Simon's narration of these stories because I'll hear some small fact I didn't know and Simon's little sidetracks he goes on make things so much more enjoyable.
I just saw this on another channel but Simon makes everything his own, loved his take.
I want a t-shirt with
"Dude...dude...No! "
Simon Whistler
on it.
Forensic Files did an episode on John List, but Callum uncovers so much more information than TV ever does and he does it twenty years after the fact...
The Korean War is overlooked so often it's literally called "The Forgotten War" the only reason I knew about it as a kid was because my grandpa used to tell me about his time in it. Public school sure as hell didn't teach me anything about it.
Same with the Philippine-American war
True.
There's also the TV series 'M.A.S.H.'.
That's how I learned about, as a kid.
@@sasserine ah m.a.s.h. the show about a war that lasted twice as long as the war lol
Every year they taught history from the beginning. By the time they got close to present day, the school year was over. Vietnam was the last war when I was in school. It was never talked about unless a former hippie substitute brought it up. I did write a report on the Korean War in High School so I was able to learn more about it in depth.
Simon , you’ll become much acquainted with a very looong list of criminals (mostly murderers) if you binge on the old Forensic Files TV show. The episodes are only 30 minutes long, so you can cover a lot of ground in a relatively short period of time. I’ve seen their version of the John List story several times.
I believe John List was their first episode
Thank you for this video. It is excellent
Mom's side of the family lived down the street from the List family, and this crime shook them all, especially my grandma. She told me this story often actually. She could not accept that this man could commit this crime and get away with it. Even after she moved away, she followed every article and report about the case. She of course watched America's Most Wanted that night, and was amazed by the forensic sculpture's work. When List was finally caught, she went to each of her neighbors homes, and said "I just need to tell someone, but they caught John List."
After that, she became fascinated by crime investigation and forensic, which was something we both shared (when I got older). She was always reading up on the latest techniques, and would send me articles about solved cold cases. Anytime a new documentary came out about List, we'd watch it together. Each time, she'd tell me about the day she went from neighbor to neighbor telling them List was caught. And at the end of each documentary, she'd say how grateful she was for all the technology that helps us to find such horrible people.
Watching this was oddly nostalgic. Simon and Callum, she would have loved this, and would probably also have said "thank you for calling him a dickhead."
Fun fact about the Army Finance Corps, where a close relative of mine served nearly 20 years at the same time as List: War accounting is not much more exciting than the peacetime version! It's still a lot of payroll and purchasing and government forms. There IS a lot of money involved, because the US Army is LORGE, but most of my relative's accounting war stories are things like "the week we paid every soldier on base in two-dollar bills to prove soldiers were really spending money at local businesses". Still, he liked it a lot better than his previous assignment, which was fixing airplane engines. There was SOME danger and intrigue involved (a safe getting blown up as the enemy approached, parachuting into a jungle with gold to bribe a warlord), but it always happened to people he knew, not him. In his opinion, if finance was life-threatening, he was doing it wrong. He was also deliriously happy to be married to his high-school sweetheart, who was smarter and tougher than he was and they both knew it. They lived to a ripe old age together.
In conclusion, don't be too full of yourself, marry the most fabulous person who'll have you, keep your head out of your ass, and you won't end up on this show. 😂
Well said!
Anyone else here in 2024?
Just got into April 2024.😅
Yes
2024!🤣🤣🤣
Omg me haha
I’m here in 2024…is it weird that finding this channel has counter-acted some of the existential dread that comes on every election year?
I hope Fred played well that afternoon, I really do. I hope he had the best game of his life, the poor lad.
I think Callum's script was incorrect at that part. I have watched other videos about John List and they say it was John Jr. who was playing at the soccer game.
3:30 - Chapter 1 - Who was John List ?
10:25 - Chapter 2 - Man on the run
14:50 - Chapter 3 - The bust
17:35 - Chapter 4 - The bust
22:30 - Chapter 5 - Westfield bound
26:50 - Chapter 6 - Helen big reveal
29:20 - Chapter 7 - John list little secret
31:55 - Chapter 8 - The horror of a breeze knoll
34:25 - Chapter 9 - Hell house
37:05 - Chapter 10 - The massacre at breeze knoll
38:50 - Chapter 11 - The gospel according to John
41:55 - Chapter 12 - My assignment for the day
43:15 - Chapter 13 - The disappearing act
48:05 - Chapter 14 - Judgment day
49:25 - Chapter 15 - The trial
52:15 - Wrap up
54:35 - Dismembered appendices
Greetings from Texas! You crack me up! Baking a gazillion Christmas cookies whilst listening to The Casual Criminalist got me through. Thanks!
"If you were a high flying accountant at one company, I'm sure you could at least be a medium flying accountant at another company."
Well that resonated with me in a major way lol
“Why? Why are you such a psycho?” Literally also me, every time I’ve heard the story of John List.
Simon as a police interviewer be like^
I wonder if he was infected with syphilis if it was actually affecting his mind at that point...
I live in the U.S. A burned down house sat on my street for a decade. One neighbor even put together a letter to send to the county and went around having neighbors sign it saying the house was an eyesore, attracting pests, and bringing down property prices. The county still did nothing. Finally one of our neighbors bought the property, tore the house down, rebuilt, and sold the property.
I grew up in Denver and remember seeing this story. I remember them saying that the stained glass skylight was worth enough to get them out of debt.
When you need a non-murder "palette cleansing" episode, a young girl in a tiny Manitoba village called Easterville catfished an NBA player and a model simultaneously (pretending to the model while talking to the NBA player and pretending to be the NBA player while talking to the model) basically just for kicks. There was no monetary gain or anything. It was kind of recent. Within the last five or six years, I think. An entertaining story for when the murder gets to be a bit much.
I *really* wish there was more non-murder true crime content. I'm not really here for the gruesome stories, I'm here for the mysteries, the investigation, etc.
There are so many weird, interesting, funny crimes to talk about which aren't total downers.
I just looked it up! Apparently there was some financial gain, though. The catfish also pretended to be the model’s mom on an email to the NBA player threatening to expose him to he police for his relationship with the model that was, in fact, 17 years old at the time. So his lawyer reached a deal with the “mom” and sent her 3000 dollars to keep it all under wraps. The catfish was discovered not long after that. Crazy story, thanks for the recommendation!
@@derp195 I like that the Casual Criminalist has those non-fatal episodes about heists and such. It's the only true crime podcast/channel to my knowledge that doesn't solely cover murders (although I only watch a handful of true crime channels).
@@derp195 I like the older murder stories like pre 1950's. They tend to be more interesting to me.
@@christinebenson518 Yes! Especially seeing the quaint, antiquated ways people could get away with things back then.
"So he started going by his middle name and moved one county over. He then became the largest manufacturer of bakelite rotary phones, second only to Bell, and frequently appeared in his television and radio ads. That however, would not be his undoing..."
Frank Bender, the artist who created the sculpture, was a member of the Vidocq Society, a group that was dedicated to solving cold crimes. A couple of books have been written about Bender and his work with the society.
So I was listening to this while cooking, and kept thinking, “Hold on, did I miss what John List did? I’m so confused right now. What crime did he commit??”
So about 30 minutes in, when Whistler says that part about stringing this along and how we don’t know what the guy did yet, I was like oh thank god. I thought I’d blacked out an entire section of the video somehow. 😝
Same. :-)
Same. I knew the story, but the storyline sequence was really weird.
I did the same lol
Same. I was so lost.
holy shit, huge kudos to Jen the editor. the music at 19:11 for simons rant was freaking perfect, and hilarious
Simon’s self-deprecating intelligence jokes are SO FUNNY. Love his sense of humor
I try so hard to listen to these episodes but they constantly make me fall asleep. Simon’s soothing voice lulls me to sleep like a baby on a bumpy drive 😭
As a chronic insomniac i can tell you to take it when you can get it lol
I caught this one earlier through Castbox. The podcast experience is very recommended if you like to multitask while listening to your medically recommended dose of Simon.
Oh, yes. Simon is by far my favorite youtuber.
Well, it's a podcast if you switch tabs/background play too so 🤣🤷👌
Right….any video can be a podcast if you just turn the screen off while listening.
All videos can be a podcast if you close your eyes
Hey, Callum got a fact wrong. John List was not diagnosed with OCD; he was diagnosed with OCPD aka Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. These are two different diagnoses. Individuals with OCPD do not see a problem with the actions that result from their disorder, whereas individuals with OCD do experience distress from their OCD symptoms. It's an important difference which makes List's actions make 'more sense,' if you will.
I remember that episode of "America's Most Wanted". They stated the type of glasses he would probably wear, hairstyle and his personality. The FBI did a profile of him that turned out accurate. Also remembered soon after the news stated he was caught. It helped Adam Walsh's show immensely and he thanked the public for the support.
Sorry to be pedantic, but it was John Walsh who presented the show, Adam was his little boy who was murdered, which in turn led to the creation of the show
@@michelletempleton2505 thank you for the correction
@@TheMocholoco I'm sorry, really didn't mean to be one of those annoying a***holes who correct people but I guess I just did, again sorry
The Tiffany skylight sold would have paid his debts.. That's the irony.
Ikr? Fuckin' horrible 😖😖😖
He still would have done it. Selling the skylight wouldn’t save the wife and family from the devil. Do you think this cold, obsessive accountant who made sure to get every penny due on his mother’s stolen savings bonds didn’t know the value of his own house?
@@StrongDreamsWaitHere fuck 😳 that's a fuckin' good point
Can you sell the skylight separately of the house ?
Absolute gold on the writing, Callum. Very well done! 🤘
1 minute in….You. Are. Hilarious. “I deleted that picture.”
And Callum, you are freaking brilliant.
Thank you both so much for this delightful combination every week! This is the best coverage I’ve ever seen of this case, the most detailed and palatable version of such a horrific circumstance. Thank you for your hard work!
I have heard of this guy before and was like gosh why until the bust was mentioned. This guy was seriously messed up and I cant wait to hear how Callum tells the story and how Simon reacts.
Frank Bender actually solved a non-trivial number of crimes with art. He's done some other remarkable reconstructions, primarily in the field of memorial statuary for unknown victims of slavery and the holocaust.
Sorry to burst your bubble Simon, we're in 2024 😂
I can't afford a Louis Comfort Tiffany paperweight, not to mention a LCT skylight on my ballroom. That skylight was my first thought on hearing that the house burned down.
When Callum ends up writing his own bible (after his brain is sautéed from being trapped in Simon's basement) I'll read it
_"Why didn't (he) get a lower level job as an accountant? At least make 'some' money."_
That's the thing with office workers.
Once they reach a certain level they can't even fathom going down a level.
It would be worse than death.
"If you hear anything about us 'going on vacation', it's probably because he called us all." In Australia, if a teacher (any adult in a school setting) heard that in a serious or potentially serious tone they are mandatorily obligated to report it by law. That law may be a nightmare and has likely caused some issues in good families but I know it's saved kids too. It may just be my state but I think all states have mandatory reporting laws
Wow. We need that here in the states.
@@CoyoteWildFlower We do have it now but at the time of these murders it wasn't the law. It wasn't until about the late 70's that child abuse became a public topic and laws were passed requiring doctors, nurses and teachers to report suspected child abuse or missing students
.
I know they have mandatory reporting laws in the US but maybe not at the time of this case
@@upbeat_garbage0308 They do, but Americans quite love their child abuse and hearing a quote like that one from a student might not alarm the average teacher.
Source: me, a past abused child who called attention to it constantly and even arranged guidance counselor visits to report it all throughout elementary, middle, and even high school only to get a response of:
"eh I don't see a bruise today and that dent in your skull totally isn't suspicious, so not my problem. just hold out until you're eighteen when you can move"
every. time. ...TL;DR I wouldn't have much faith in any American mandatory reporting updates
@@baydiac I truely hope your life now is of the best quality and you have happiness after that sort of neglect.
"America Got Wanted" sounds like a cardinal sin for one of Simon's tips when it comes to crime-ing. Don't write down crimes; don't brag about you crimes; don't perform you crimes on national television with a judge panel.
I find that practise completely bonkers.
There was a creep who murdered his parents, chopped them up, put his mom's head in a pot on the stove and dissolved their other parts in plastic tub totes full of acid, and he wrote every single thing down. And he was supposed to be clever. The journal and lists of his to-do activities for death day, were just stupid.
1. Get plastic tub totes at Walmart
2. Get sulphuric acid to dissolve bones
3. More sick shit
4. Kill parents
5. Etc.
Just dumb.
I smoke pot all the time, yet still understand the difference between a regular skylight and a Tiffany and co. skylight 🤣
The John List story is the first time I had ever heard the term "devout Lutheran," and I grew up Lutheran. I am still confused by that, and think the Lutheran church probably took a hit in popularity after this.
I for one found myself thinking, "Please don't be part of the same synod as me!" Although there were also parts of the episode where I thought, "Yup, that's totally something someone in my synod would do."😖
Self-effacement to the point of self-harm and eventually psychosis. Yeah that's Lutherans alright.
If you want sociopathic disregard for predestined sinners, that's the Calvinists. Both Ham doctrine and the Prosperity Gospel rolled out of _that_ synod.
Still a devout Lutheran, myself. This guy and BTK BOTH gotta be associated with Lutherans? Thanks a lot, you nutbags!
I must be the only weirdo on this threat that didn’t grow up Lutheran but became one later on.
*thread
I normally listen via Spotify so haven't left a review. I really enjoy Simon's presentation of true crime situations. His use of humor balanced with a serious discussion of the outcome and consequences keeps me engaged. I have yet to miss an episode.
There is a reason the Korean War is called "the forgotten war" it was a war where the UK and the USA supported South Korea, and China and the Soviet Union supported North Korea.. it was an unpopular war as ww2 just came to an end and people were tire of fighting.. had the UK and USA kept fighting ww3 would have been the result.. it seemed possible that we could have had 3 world wars happen in less then 50 years, And sadly nukes were a thing already, so ww3 would been devastating for the world. Not that the prior wars was all sunshine and rainbows, but the nukes would have made it high civilian casualties at a level that had never been seen before
I have a relative who was a classmate of Patricia, and it was really traumatic for everyone in their school when the murders were discovered. My relative was so delighted when "America's Most Wanted" helped to catch List that she became a devoted viewer for as long as the show was aired.
Also -- if List had only known how valuable the Tiffany ceiling was, he could have sold it for hundreds of thousands of dollars and solved all his money troubles. Which would have beaten killing 5 people and having to go on the run, surely.
Best TCC script to date, really perfectly paced and well-constructed! I was familiar with this story from way back when it was on America's [Got] Wanted, but the presentation here with the slow build to the horrific reveal was SO well done. Callum took what was already the most disturbing, creepiest story ever and still really managed to crank the creepy to 11. Cheers team!!
I agree with your assessment that people never actually believe their doppelgangers look like them, but there is a difference here. This wasn't someone else made to look like him. The base for the sculpture was his real face. Even if some small details were wrong the core of the art was him.
Advising someone to get a stress ball or a massage moments after killing a child is perhaps the darkest and most twisted thing Simon has ever accidentally uttered. (Allegedly.)
I really like the way this was structured. It’s far more engaging than most relating of this story. Great job Callum!
Loved this episode. I was familiar with this story and I learned something new!! I was was waiting anxiously for you to get to the point of what he really did just for Simone's reaction!!
I used to regularly watch "America's Most Wanted." It was hosted by John Walsh. His young son was abducted and murdered. It took years to find the guy.
The idea was to get help from a national audience to find these people. One famous case they solved was the "Just Sweats" (store) insurance fraud/murder case.
There's a movie about the crime and search for the criminals, "If Looks Could Kill." It includes how John Walsh and "AMW" got involved. The case was finally solved after a search of several years.
Yeah, I can feel that whole "No I don't look like them!" thing. I have a doppleganger, she has the same name, way of walking, speaking, and dressing, the whole shebang. I know all that because I met the mother of her ex boyfriend, who at first thought I was her. But I don't think I look that much like her. (?) My sister saw someone who looked like me from behind at an even we were both at, maybe it was her? And I'm pretty sure she was at a shop at the university I went to just a few minutes before I was there, because I walked up to them one day and they said "weren't you just here?" when I hadn't been, and yet I never ran into her at college. Or if I have, I haven't realized it because I don't see the resemblance like other people do. But if I really haven't, it's almost like we're fated to keep crossing paths without ever meeting, confusing people as we just try to live our lives.
"I always say brand new but you could be listening to this in 2024" now hold up just a damn second-
We have a similar phrase. We call people "dick heads."
I said that outloud like he could hear
Or douchebags
Or mushroom caps
Or dinguses
"you bellend" has always been my favourite
Loved the chronology of this story. Callum is a national treasure...stock his basement cell well, Simon
As an American who likes history, i will say that yeah the Vietnam War VERY MUCH gets more coverage than the Korean War
"Air quotes" is how I've always heard the sarcastic quotation marks you make with your fingers called, even when you're typing them out.
Also Midlothian sounds like a descriptor in Star Wars. "A fine Midlothian blaster."
Its the name of a ship in Halo, the "Heart of Midlothian"
Midlothian is from a place in Scotland, between East and West Lothian.
It sounds like it’s from lotr lmaooo. Don’t tell crime boy though because he hates lotr.
@@BioLegacy141 guess one of the devs was a Scottish football fan, Heart of Midlothian is an Edinburgh based team more commonly known as Hearts
When typing or referencing typeface they are "quotation marks". "Air quotes" describes the act of physically forming the quotation marks (in the air) while speaking.
I just heard the John List story on another UA-cam channel and it’s always amazing to me to hear the same story told by 2 different t people. The differences they choose to highlight, the details they go into etc…
I also love Kalamazoo!! I lived there for 6 years!
Simon talking about his kids is so candid and sweet. All the parents out there know how you feel
Simon: “Don’t write down your crimes!”
Also Simon: “If you wear glasses, wear contacts. If your bald get a hair transplant or wig”
I mean… he’s not writing down his crimes….
He literally sent a letter confessing to his pastor. He just wrote them down in the proper way. By the time the letter arrived at the pastor's mailbox, List was already going with a headstart.
I was confused about that for a while there, but IMO he must have left the letters to be discovered with the bodies. He said they hadn't been found for a month, so it's either that or the family and pastor all got letters confessing to monstrous acts, yet were unmoved to intervene haha
@@Bluesit32that’s not accurate. He left the letter inside of the mansion to be found when the bodies were. Otherwise yeah^, that would mean the pastor got the letter wi the in a few days and just decided “meh, I’m good” 😂
That line about a vacation meaning being murdered is probably one of the reason why teachers are now mandatory reporters in the US
He was an acting instructor, possibly not an actual teacher... maybe.
The big one was the Sylvia Likens murder (also covered in this series, though I advise against watching it to preserve your sanity).
What most call "quotation marks" are double quote marks. The single quotation mark is traditionally used for a quote within a quote, some metaphorical titles, sarcasm, and to indicate a dubious attribute. It was much more common in Edwardian Age English, and your use of it in the title is (unsurprisingly) quite correct.
The reason you wouldn't take time to hide the bodies (etc) is: back in these days, police districts did not communicate with eachother, so the best thing you can do to avoid being caught for a crime was to get as far away, as quickly as possible
I get that swings and roundabouts are about equal gains and losses, but that is only if you have never navigated a roundabout in Texas. The losses are much higher when everyone treats the yield sign as a suggestion.
I think it's more the roundabouts you find in a playground, where you sit on it and spin it around, not a vehicular roundabout x
@@fortheloveofcreepsx132 ah, now see that makes more sense. I’ve actually always wondered about that. I spent a bit of time in Scotland and I don’t think I ever saw those where I was. We call those merry-go-rounds where I’m from. Thank you! (I still think it is beyond stupid to have traffic roundabouts in Texas, however, because four young dude bros all driving F150 extended cab, extended bed, extended whatever trucks are not going to yield and woe to the small car who might be near. 😃)
Swings go back and forth, roundabouts go round and round, neither actually gets anywhere.
I spend my days at work listening to videos on your channels, thank you and your writers for all your hard work.
Love your show! You tell the stories without glorifying the crimes and killers - refreshing and interesting.
as a 6yo in 1970 and already a voracious reader of newspapers I found this more disturbing than the Manson Cult.
I remember my father believed a different sort of family, primarily of Sicilian origin killed the List family and hauled John off for unknown reasons.
I'm listening in 2024. Good timing Simon!
That "Daddy chill" meme caught me so off guard I litteraly laughed and all my coworkers looked at me funny
OMG that's one of my favorite memes from brain blaze!!
That you don't know about Tiffany shocked me much more than anything else.
I know, right? Simon, I'm pretty sure if you see examples of his work you'll recognize them; I suspect you simply don't know the artist's name. Pretty much if you think of an example of a landscape or flowers in stained glass from around the turn of the last century, you're probably picturing his work.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffany_glass
At first I thought he was kidding.
The difference between Simon’s “he looks nothing like me” and John-Bob List-Clark is that the criminal had a reason for that paranoia. Here he was, watching a segment on a tv show using his old name, about his old life, and about the crimes he committed that he so desperately wanted to hide. He was on edge and anxious, getting that “oh no” feeling
I don't like that you know all of this
Take that algorithm, also can you have a show where simon just rants and we have to guess the topic?
I've always wondered if List contracted Syphillis from his wife and it exacerbated his existing mental health issues. (not saying it excuses his crimes!). I'm also curious why Callum didn't bring up the term "Family Nihilist"that was so frequently used in discussing List's actions and justification. (Not a great topic of conversation, but very interesting when discussing a murderer who targets only the family members that he supports)
Do you mean, family annihilators?
I can tell you exactly where she got her syphilis: She had a lazy eye, she was always seeing other guys on the side.
It is mentioned when talking about the letter he wrote to his pastor
I remember some other show about List where they said that her syphillis was no longer contagious by the time she married him.
If he'd caught syphillis from her, you'd think he'd have suspected something when his knob fell off.
Callum, that was amazing story telling. I'm familiar with this case, but I was riveted by your description.
Callum s great script + Simon's great commentary = a great watch. Love this channel
Ah yes, I've listened to this three times now but it's time for my obligatory watch of this podcast's UA-cam video so I can figure out what all those extra noises Jen throws in are about...
hearing simon say "you could be listening to this in 2024" while IN 2024 scared the hell outta me
Simon in his intro always forgetting about the people listening to this on UA-cam...
We forgotten few.