I think Dan’s discussion about the story during the credits perfectly nails my feelings about this game’s story. I couldn’t be fully sad at the end like I wish I could have been, because I was just confused and trying to piece things together.
Same, it's why I wish they'd either played it straight or gone for a bigger change. It feels like they tried to do both and it just ends up taking away from itself.
Seriously. As someone who hasn't played the original but is well aware of Aerith's death as one of the most iconic character deaths in all of video games, I was just mystified at how this was supposed to be a satisfactory ending. This was no impact at all to her death - you don't see it on screen, you don't see her pierced with Sephiroth's sword, and it was certainly not clear to me that she actually died at that moment. I was 50-50 on if it was real or if it was some fake out and she would die later. So watching like 90 minutes of combat in between a character's death and when I realize it's a Real Death... For me it fell completely flat. And I teared up at Aerith's flashback with her mother a few episodes ago, so it's not like I'm not emotionally invested here.
I think Tifa should have died. Let me be clear, I don't dislike Tifa, nor am I dismissing her importance to the story. On the contrary, because she is so deeply connected to Cloud and his mental issues, her death would have horrible ramifications for Cloud's well-being. Furthermore, if Aerith lives, she might not be able to contribute to giving Holy that extra push at the end. These two key facts would make Sephiroth even more likely to succeed in his bid for godhood than the original timeline, if he were to kill Tifa instead of Aerith. Aerith, I'm sure, would have no shortage of existential angst over being given a reprieve from death, at the cost of losing Tifa, who she was clearly becoming close friends with. From there, there are two ways it could go. If the party still manages to pull through and save the world despite this massive change to the plot, it only further cements that Sephiroth is fated to fail. Alternatively, this change does make victory impossible for our heroes, and so they have to return to the original timeline, which means that Aerith is saddled with a terrible burden, to willingly give up her life, so that Tifa can return and make things right. I could see either way working.
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say that's a really cool idea and I like the detail of the how's and why's you put into it.
That really should have happened since the conceit of this story is that Sephiroth learned from his mistakes and is now more determined to make Cloud suffer to put him under control. In that sense, Tifa, being the actual support of Cloud, should have died. Even if Aerith is dear, it is clear Tifa is Cloud’s support.
the worst part about being confused about a story is not knowing if i'm supposed to be confused and vibe with it, or if i'm supposed to understand and don't. if i KNOW it's the former, i can vibe. but i will second guess every bit of knowledge until i get my feet on the ground again
Im genuinely curious if im in the minority. After beating the game I was simply feeling "oh this is cool, oh i get whats going on, oh im not so sure about that it will be cool to find out,". I was never really confused. And as far as the emotional feelings at the ending...i think they made the decision to aim for something different. No one was going to get that impact of Aerith dying again. We all knew it could happen, and if it had happened just straight as i think it would have just been "ah ok iv been worried this whole time, guess thats were it ended again" rather then the gut punch of the original. I think for me the emotional...gut punch i guess...came over the course of the game just by them showing how badly Cloud was being affected, how much he was losing himself, and the constant feeling of just how badly is it going to go for him as the game continued.
I echo Dan’s sentiments in the credits section. It was such a long and amazing game, just to get to that ending and walk away confused. Then I felt frustrated by my confusion, and while I’m content to say “let’s see where it’s going in re-3”, that’s a hard pill to swallow at the same time. I do love the game, but with all the time spent on side quests and random animations, I would’ve loved to have a little time spent for clarity right at the end. Thank you for your excellent work as always, both to Dan and Carrie!!💜
The unmitigated crulty of making Cait the most difficult character to play, being the last addition to the playable team, AND having a gap between when you last get to play him before tossing him into the final boss rush. Square why must you do my boy dirty like that.
They also remove everything on him besides his weapon when he leaves the party, and it's easy to forget to fix that and go into the final battle with a papier-mâché robot cat who dies to a stiff breeze. Very frustrating.
2:02 there's that gorgeous Advent Children music again 8:55 Yuffie hiding behind Barret; yeah I'm still loving their bond, he's totally got two adopted daughters now 😊 17:17 I'm big confused about this whole sequence, but damn if it's not some of the most beautiful game I've ever seen 19:11 OK THAT'S *COLD* 😢 Jenova fight: idk, something about the same, tired combat lines feels out of place here. 45:35 that's not just 11th hour, it's 11-55 50:04 yeah, this is definitely not a game for people who haven't played OG... 1:12:58 like Smash Bros introduction
2:03:22 'I wish them good luck on the production of the next on, bringing this whole trilogy thing in for a landing' I hope they do a better job at it than Cid did with the Tiny Bronco.
There’s a lot that happens here but the one thing I want to touch on is, I think it’s cool how everyone starts the fight with Jenova with their Limit Break, except Cloud. Because why would he? He saved her, he saw her alive! She will later tell him to go after Sephiroth and everything, a thing Aerith definitely wants him to do and isn’t specifically the thing she told him not to do
Tbh I suspect the reason for the lack of LB for Cloud is bc he used it trying(?) to save her. Goes into the competing theories I’m waiting to post until we’re further in lol.
@XTheUnchosenOneX I think Cloud did save her, thus creating a new timeline yet at that very moment Sephiroth merged all timelines, hence why he laughs. At this point however, the timelines merging causes Cloud to see memories from both timeliness making him think he saved her but she is actually dead.
@@aytony4090I don’t think there are “timelines” in any meaningful sense of the word, those are essentially purgatories created out of the hopes and dreams of those who returned to the Lifestream, and who returned to the Lifestream in that moment? Aerith did. I actually think trying to piece together the exact mechanics of all the worlds is unnecessary, as their primary purpose in the story is to be a metaphor for Cloud’s increasingly fractured mental state. That’s why we see more and more of them get created as Cloud falls apart more and more. I really hadn’t planned to get into this but I kind of brought it on myself here
@@aytony4090 I think Jenova has taken on the form of Aerith - earlier than when one might think. I believe Sephiroth is saying he underestimated Jenova, not Aerith. 1:13:21 But... I also think the ending "goodbye" comes from the yellow flower on the screen's lower left, so... 1:40:43
Now to the end of the credits finally, and ngl I feel similarly after Rebirth. I didn’t feel that way after Remake as I was hype at the idea that the devs wanted a canon divergent AU. After Rebirth and how unclear Aerith’s fate seems to be and the way they (hopefully intentionally) muddled the emotions of that scene with that boss rush (at least one or two of those Avalanche fights could have been cut imho), I’m just. Idk, I’m really really praying part 3 sticks the landing and makes the changes worth it. I love the changes overall. But man, I need some really good justification if they’re going to keep Aerith dead.
I'm surprised to hear so many people say they don't get the point of changing the story if you *don't* save Aerith. For me, the cop out would have been if the entire point of the game was to take away the *one big death* everybody knows about.
I really wish I could send a message to all JRPG writers: there's a difference between "mysterious" and "confusing", and if your player is confused during what's supposed to be the big emotional climax of your story, you've screwed up. In order to be fully emotional engaged in a story, the audience can't feel like they don't even understand what's happening. Confusion will undermine everything else you're trying to do, regardless of how cool the music and visuals are, and should be avoided like the plague unless you're deliberately doing some kind of avant-garde surrealist work. You know what's never happened? You've never been playing something and thought to yourself, "Wow, this is pretty cool. I sure wish I understood what was happening less." Edit: lol Dan basically said all this during the credits, this was me ranting in the middle of the episode
You-know the one thing I hope for after that confusing ass ending, is that, since Cloud doesn’t seem stuck on his own grief this time, we’ll get to see him help the others (especially Tifa and Nankai) through their own grief
A few things. First off, I loved this game and this playthrough. Thank you Dan. Ending spoilers all over the place below. Second, I agree with you about a lot of the stuff you said in the credits. I liked Aerith in these games so much more than in the original. She had so many great moments, and I especially loved the relationship they built with Tifa. So I was expecting her death to feel so much more terrible. And instead, I guess she's like a ghost in the lifestream or something who's going to keep talking to Cloud in the next game, Advent Children-style? And I did honestly think there was a chance that they did what they were teasing since the end of Remake and she would live - the playground rumour about a way for her to survive finally come true. I appreciate that narratively, this would be super difficult to make work, but I did honestly think it was possible. I was even half-convinced it was going to happen when she 'woke up'. All that said, I look forward to the third game and your playthrough very eagerly. I'll see you there.
speaking as someone who never played the original and has been viewing this as a stand alone product, I was deeply disheartened when the finale of remake came around because I had hoped to experience a retelling of what was one of the most beloved Final Fantasy games ever made, one that I had missed growing up. Ironically, when they 'changed fate' in the first game, all they did was tie this game down to the original, because now the tangle of the alternate world plot is making it harder to proceed without knowledge of the original. From the reactions of this comment section, it seems like even people who do have the requisite knowledge are confused about where things are heading now. What really kills me about this is it seems like the most convoluted, awkward justification for changing things in a game. Remakes should change and expand on things. The fact they they needed to add the whispers and alternate realities and constant flashes of characters that newcomers to the game won't recognize to justify giving side characters more personality or characters meeting in different circumstances that don't really alter the main plot arc baffles me. It's like they're fighting for creative freedom only to turn around and refuse to actually use it, and the end result is worse for both old and new fans.
47:46 - Dan, haven't you learned anything from this crew? In this world weapons have the inverse effectiveness that they have in the real world. Guns have to be fired hundreds of times to leave a scratch, swords need dozens of slashes to be effective, but going in with fists and feet is DEVASTATING! So yeah, Zach's knows what's up! Also... anyone else have a brain fart when the Assess said "Unable to read" for Sepheroth? I was like "What? But we saw him reading all those books at Shinra Mansion! How is he suddenly illiterate?!" 1:23:23 - Cloud: "Why is he laughing?" - Aerith: "Because he knows this isn't over." - Me: "Oh come on! How many more phases does this movie-length boss fight have?! 😩" 1:27:03 - I can't help but feel like this entire Re-7 saga exists purely so that everyone's wish fulfillment of Aerith living can come true. I mean the meta-plot of these games is literally fighting against the preordained plot of the original game. Aerith lives, Zach lives, everyone lives... at least for now... in some universe or other... so that everything happens as in the original while also totally changing it all. MULTIVERSE!!!
Well, good journey It was a very fun watch In the original pretty much any character could do anything so Aerith's lost was mostly an emotional one I wonder how they will balance the third game around not having a mage. Neither Vincent nor Cid look like they could be a decicated spellcaster
So my issues with this game are largely minor, Dyne's whole segment being one of the more major ones, and the rest being stuff like them not using a remix of Birth of a God for the Sephiroth Reborn fight (I really hope they find a way to stick it into part 3, given that I don't think they'll reuse Sephiroth Reborn for the semifinal boss, having used him here in Rebirth)
Having already played it watching the ending now, with the knowledge of LOTS of analyses and theories, I'm not really confused anymore. But honestly I think that was the point and I'm mostly invested in how they're gonna wrap this up it part 3, because I feel like that's where the true emotional gutpunch (and some of the obvious missing stuff here) is gonna land. If we got it now, in the same way as the OG, I'm not sure I would have felt it as much. Still cried like a baby. 😂 ALSO GODDAMN THEY ARE COOKING WITH THE JENOVA THEMES. ❤ Also also good to see Barrett finally sticking the landing at the very end.
i don't really feel confused or unfulfilled here so im just gonna dump a rant of how i feel. although completely understandable dan, and I can see where you're coming from, and the way you put it is very good. So, pretty obviously, one of if not the big thing going into this game was will aerith die? and obviously a lot of people wanted it to go one way and a lot of people wanted it to go other way. This ending feels to me like the devs went huh well how about we do something completely different and give you both. which imo is repeating themselves from the first game a bit but also committing to their decision of doing what they want? while also being like hey this is what you get when you're indecisive it's not that great is it huh? i dunno if its worth sacrificing an emotional moment for that kind of gotcha but also like. we (and i mean pretty much everyone who heard of ff7) all know aerith is supposed to die here. even with all the additions and much sweeter dynamic between her and cloud i do not think this would have been such a crushing moment. (and if she straight up didn't die i feel like it would not be a moment at all, they seemed to have understood that with cait sith and made that "revival" much better) And finally, cloud. Given they have been showing his conditions much more throughout the game, making him go this much more distant - literally disconnected at the end is imo a nice way to "fix it", give that extra tension at the end. I think that within this story they decided on we are quite in sync with Cloud's feelings which is obviously what they want us to be and i think that's good storytelling. slightly if not very unsure of what is real and what is not, but still needing to go farther.
Sat on the ending for a day so far. I think my thoughts can be summed up thusly: all the Final Fantasy 7 games have weirdly emotionally confusing endings so this one is par for the course. OG FF7 ended with people not really sure if the planet was saved or not, particularly with the epilogue with Red XIII. you could take it charitably and say everything ended well but the game itself doesn't give you that answer, and so it ends in a kind of confusingly weird place where we don't really get the answers to what happened until the movie came out years later. FF7 Remake is also really confusing, like it's inspiring that they broke destiny or whatever but then Zack shows up out of nowhere bringing Cloud into the city just as the group is leaving so it's like, what is happening? is this related to breaking fate somehow? does that mean Zack is alive in an alternate dimension, or are we in an alternate dimension? so if anything, FF7 Rebirth gives us probably the clearest ending yet; we know that Cloud is not alright, and is seeing things that aren't there. we know that Zack is alive in an alternative timeline to the one we're in, and so is Aerith, and that they both have some influence on the world that Cloud is in. this still leaves us with questions like, what is real, but again, that's par for the course with these games. "what am I supposed to be feeling?" seems to be the favourite question every FF7 ends with
Sperler-y talk: I'm of the opinion that Aerith could always see in both worlds; I'm willing to bet that we could look through the last game and this one and we'd see hints of that in some of her cryptic words or actions. And now because of recent events and contact with the life stream/etc, Cloud can see all of that too. As to whether she's been saved in one but not the other, that *sounds* right but I'm not sure. It may also be that Cloud is alive in one and not the other as well. Nevermind that with all the Stamps we've seen there's likely to be a lot more worlds than just the two. How many of them exist at any given time is anyone's guess. I can see how they might do a "dual world" story here but all that really makes me think is that this version might be more "choose your own interpretation of the ending" than the original.
At the very-very end of Remale when it originally came out she had the line "I miss the steel sky" or something like that. They then patched it to be "This sky.. I don't like it." (again something like that, might not be exact). I'm willing to bet the reason she didn't like the sky was the psychotic smiley breach-face in the sky
I wonder if we're misled by "Stamps Champs" though. Chip brands do often have more than one flavor. What if some Stamps are alternate Stamps while others are Stamp Champs, some separate high ranking doggo?
I want to go against the crowd and say that I enjoy the recent Square-Enix nebulous, wacky storytelling, in small doses. I'm not that much into kingdom hearts (i know the story thanks to Dan), or I have any interest in theory crafting. I just enjoy piecing together the implications and the ramifications and having to run to catch up to the story. I think that's still an effective storytelling, even if not on an emotional level. I'm keeping up with FF XIV on the channel, but even if everyone sings its praises, I've never felt that engaged in its story, even during the big reveals. Maybe this plays a part in that.
I do not love us having Aerith's death both ways, makes it lose its impact. The third game could salvage this for sure but it feels like a massive waste if she dies in such a fuzzy noncommittal way.
Uhh, spoilers, if you're reading before you get about 20 mins in I get the people upset that Aerith still had to die, but to be fair, they actually did give us a lot more time with her. Also someone apparently recently discovered a glitch in the OG that lets you revive her, kind of, so I mean, there's that.
I feel something else that for with your talk on the credits something that hurts this story vs the original for this is time in stand alone games all the big questions that are set up have to be answered there isn't a next part to come back to answer the question ,no years of time between each installment to theory craft on the crumbs we've been shown assuming the writers have everything internally consistent right from the rip and I feel that is the biggest risk for this remake project years between installments but with how long games take to make and how expensive they are to make they can't just wait until they are ready to release everything a year apart for each other to have the gap be lean for now I will accept the confusion in hopes that the explanation given will be of a similar caliber to writing skill as the characterization of this party , and hope that the team that made this game is still mostly in place so the 3rd part can be out sooner rather than later
1:22:00 Much like Dan I died here, right at the end. I'm guessing he had to do the same and just didn't show it but I had to go and fight that entire hours worth of fights again just for that last tiny bit of one health bar. That sucked
VIDEO SPOILERS, and also mild spoilers for Doctor Who S14E3 ("Boom") . . . . "But Aerith is gone." "Don't be silly. She's not gone. She's just... dead. But she's not gone."
@@AngelPerez-tu1nk Dan puts it best in his end credits monologue. They have made some very welcome changes to the original story, fleshing out character dynamics, expanding on story elements that felt underdeveloped, all while reimagining old locations in high fidelity. We've gotten so much good stuff out of these remakes. Which is why I am so annoyed that you dismiss all of those things as "pointless" as you tunnel in on just one thing you dislike.
2:05:30 Is there even a Final Fantasy seven part three because I don’t think there is one or at least one that wasn’t made or are they making one? If so, I would definitely check it out but as far as I know the next one that continues this Final Fantasy seven is in a movie form? Or is there a final fantasy seven part three that I haven’t heard about yet?😢😮⁉️
The remake (lowercase r) is a three-part series that consists of Remake (capital R!), Rebirth (this one) and the not-yet released third part. The film Advent Children, if it remains canon, would come after the not-yet released part 3, if we're putting things in story order. So short answer: yes, there will be a part 3, it's not made yet
As far as the compilation is concerned, there are 2 entries that are after the OG. Advent Children is the movie that takes place 2 years after OG, and Dirge of Cerberus is the game that takes place a year after that. Pretty much all the rest of the titles are prequels.
I think this game is great when it cares about characters, but as soon as it tries to talk about the big picture it just can't seem to do anything but raising questions without ever delivering payoffs (a bit like Kingdom hearts or recent Doctor Who). And I think this complete divorce from the themes of the story of this big picture """"mystery"""" really ruins my enjoyment of both.
I don't... like this. I am SO confused. Like, almost worse than Kingdom Hearts confused. It feels like they made _so_ many questionable decisions in the span of one episode. Regardless though, thank you for the playthrough as always, Dan and Carrie!
Prediction for Final Fantasy VII Réunion (Part 3) Claim there is a race against time to stop sephiroth but undermine that idea with every element, theme, tone, and direction throughout a game filled with reused assets with the exception of some cosmetic changes and the addition of the northern biome. Find energy barrier preventing access to northern crater and sephiroth. Go to icicle village 2hours. Find gast's research. Piss around in the snow 2hours. Sephiroth nonsense wutai shinra reminder. With the narrative importance of Mideel already covered twice in rebirth we skip it and decide to go to wutai to see if there are any answers there. Piss around wutai 4hours. Discover the huge materia plan. War kicks off between Shinra and Wutai. Back to Cosmo canyon 2hours. Zack and Aerith stuff 2hours. Return to City of the ancients with buggs 2hours. North Correl big materia 2hours. Zack, Aerith and Cloud stuff 2hours. Rocket town big materia 4hours. Junon big materia 2hours. Return to Wutai to get their big materia stolen during the war 2hours. Do the Sunken ship thing 2hours. Return to buggs in forgotten capital with new mcguffin. Sister Ray fires not at weapon but wutai Weapons decide that's enough. Fight army of Weapons plague world map leading to huge battle outside midgar 4 hours. Weapon peppers Midgar with magic bullets. Sister Ray fires again. Weapon is defeated. Side questing to fend off weapons all over. Return to midgar 4hours. Northern crater 4hours. Kingdom hearts nonsense 2hours. End with literally no one caring anymore.
I just want to stop and say how much I appreciate the excellent (and organized) way Dan manages the playlists for the channel. I love knowing I'll be able to find anything.
I think the story is implying that Aerith is manifesting similarly to the way Sephiroth is, and maybe only Cloud is sensitive enough to pick it up, either due to the SOLDIER experiment or because he has the Black/White Materia. Red's reaction at the end would imply he is also sensitive enough to sense Aerith, but only when she's very close. But I guess we'll see if I'm right.
If you go back a few game chapters and watch, Zack, just like Cloud, can a tear in the sky, something that only seems visible to those who know of/have experienced other worlds.
I think you're right on that - but I think it would be a better game if they'd made it clearer. As far as I recall, the remake series hasn't really explained what's up with Sephiroth to that extent (i.e. the "yup, he's totally dead, his body is frozen in the glacier in the north, these are just ghost projection shapeshifty kinda things not actual teleportation" explanation that comes later in FF7 original). An explanation of that (or a recap somewhere closer to the end if we had had it) would make the parallel more obvious. Similarly, whatever shenanigans Sephiroth pulled to go from "world where Cloud parried the attack" to "world where Aerith is stabbed" are also either new, or only happened long enough ago that they don't seem familiar - some lesser version of that foreshadowed, e.g., at the collapse of the temple when Sephiroth recovers the Black Materia would make that moment hit a lot more as "Oh fuck he did the thing and she's dead" rather than "what the heck is going on?" The common thread of both of these is a lot of what Dan's talking about - you can have big mysteries that leave the players asking questions, and you can have big emotional moments, and you can even mix them quite a bit - but IMO it's better to space out the "point where the player starts asking big questions" from the "point where the player has big emotions", otherwise neither lands as well as they could
I think it's Jenova not Aerith, we are told several times that Jenova wears the faces of the dead/loved ones it's a deceiver/manipulator, yet we never see it happen. I think this is what's happining. That's why Sephiroth is "happy" with the state Cloud is left in. I think the real Aerith will show up in the life stream, but we haven't seen her yet ever since she died we've been seeing Jenova. Like before city of the ancients in the woods she tells Cloud focus on yourself leave Sephiroth to me, but now she's telling him to go after him it's kinda weird.
Oh! I wasn't expecting the finale today! Well, I just wanted to say that this might be the best let's play out there. Not because of the game, but because of how exceptional Dan and Carrie's production have been. PlayFrame is always fun and respectful, but this was top-notch. The hilarious edits, the thoughtful commentary, the courteous spoiler tape, the choices in what content to show and what to cut, the thorough and helpful chapter timestamps on every video... And that's just some of the hard work I can see. I'm sure there were (likely technical) difficulties none of us will ever have any idea happened with how flawless the final product is. I'm sure this series was a behemoth of work, and I'm grateful for my truly delightful time with it 🩷💚.
Even just a line of Sephiroth saying to the group "You are not the only ones seeking to change fate", maybe having knowledge that he was destined to fail, but is fracturing the timeline enough to find one where he wins and then bringing that outcome to reality in every timeline. At the end of this game, the characters should at least be aware that there are multiple worlds based on them fighting fate in the first game, but hopeful that they could win, even if they lost Aerith and all seems hopeless, because Sephiroth hinted they were able to do it once.
Hi, person who's never played the original FF7 here, I cannot overstate how invested I am in this series now. I am so endlessly thankful for everything about this Let's Play: the analysis of both the original and the remake, the geeking out, the courteous and absolutely perfect content performed off-screen to streamline the viewing experience, and the sense of humour in both the commentary and the editing is absolutely spot-on. One of the biggest things I love about this game is that level of silliness they're willing to throw themselves into, it is so freaking REFRESHING to see all the ways the original game is honoured, faithfully or otherwise, to not have it all painted over in the same boring coat of Gritty And Serious™ paint. And the cast, HOO BOY I love everyone in this cast. They're all casted phenomenally, and it's really neat seeing their different playstyles come into play. but for the LOVE of GOD can someone put a therapist in this party because BOY they are in dire need of one right about now
I wonder... Did Dan foresee the pre-rendered cut scenes coming, and changed to the Buster Sword so it would be a better viewing experience? He's the kind of lovable doof who would do that
While I do like Ghost(?) Aerith appearing afterwards, I do prefer the sequence of events from the original more. The 8-phase boss sequence really detracts from tragedy of the situation.
Thank you for playing this. I often get to experience games through your channel, so this was a treat. I totally agree with your assessment on the story and additions. Thank you, Carrie for the good editing! And the time stamps!
I really appreciated that over the credits talk. Dan is always measured, clear, and fair in a way that is increasingly rare online. Loved the playthrough, as ever. Thank you for the thorough and joyful time, Dan!
Wow, finale time. I have been following you on NF+ for years, and on EC before that, but I don't concider myself a Let's Play person so never checked this channel out. But when Rebirth came out I wanted more as I couldn't play as much as I wanted, so started to watch this. I've now made my way through several of your playthroughs of various games (with many more to come) and I'm a huge fan of your commentary, especially when you geek out about animation, and as I've pledged to not add any more monthly Patreons for a while, I went ahead and pledged a year all at once. Thank you for this. Looking forward to whatever comes next.
Spoilers for episode below, also touches on OG spoilers. Okay so, there are two competing theories here for me in this finale to what I think is going on and what may happen in part 3. The first and most popular is that Aerith is actually dead and that Cloud is in denial. I can see that bc of the way his LB is not full the way everyone else’s is. However, I also suspect we may have a confluence of timelines here, just as Sephiroth notes at 20:09 (and, as I believe, indicated by the rainbow light, which also pops up in other instances of multiple worlds colliding, much like last episode) where Cloud sees a world where Aerith lives while everyone else sees her death. This ties into a longer theory a person I follow on Twitter posits by Turquoise Hammer, so I recommend checking them out for more details. Regardless, this would be sorted out in That Scene in part 3. Which I also think might involve an Aerith from another timeline to help too this time around, but this is mere speculation. As for how a lot of this will resolve, I have a friend who thinks that Limit Breaks will be the key. Limit Breaks have seen a lot of highlights as of late in the FF series. From XVI’s first usage being Clive accepting being Ifrit’s Dominant to some very spoilery details in FFXIV Endwalker (if you know you know). So hitting more of this here is not out of the realm of possibility. Seeing the Clear Materia, my friend Kizu posits that it will be filled with Limit Break energy for however the final victory will go. As for a final fate for Aerith, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility for her to get a second chance somehow. For instance, she could get an in universe revival, especially given how polls conducted in Japan show consistently that Aerith living is the most requested change. But I think what’s more likely is a different timeline’s Aerith will assist this one’s, just as I think this is how Aerith fought with Cloud in that last fight. Nothing to do until then but wait and speculate, however.
dan, i totally agree with your takes about the game, they were very similar to my own when i finished it. i gotta say, rewatching the game now with your playthru gave me new insights with what the game is trying to do. it is very confusing still, though. but time and rewatching it made me understand it a bit more. although i still think the game has some pacing struggles. regardless: thank you so much for the playthru! i absolutely love your comments and thoughts about FF games. it's been a blast. I'm going to miss it!
If I remember correctly the first 2 jenova fights in the original FF7 were birth and Life (and their wasn't a jenova fight in the shinra tower). So were those inaccurate translations and these are the actual names or is the remake trilogy giving them different names.
I've enjoyed really much of these new FFVII games, both Remake and Rebirth. Though I'm still waiting Rebirth's PC release. Dan's commentary, humour and occasinal goofs make PlayFrame my favourite Let's Play channel. Big thank you Dan and Carrie for this huge playthrough! PS. Wouldn't it be awesome if we would get FFVII Lore Retrospective from Dan explaining and comparing FFVII Lore (original vs. new).
I understand where Dan (and many people who have talked about the ending are coming from). It is confusing from a plot and narrative level, and if that is your initial reaction I can’t argue against that. After I finished Remake I felt the same way. But I reflected on my relation with a lot of “confusing” works of art, and specifically that of David Lynch is probably the best example of what I mean. A film like Mulholland Drive is a miserable experience if you watch it to understand the plot, if you feel your way through it the film can be a transcendent experience. I took a deep breath going into this final fight and it I loved it. It was both unsettling and immensely beautiful in a way I have never experienced, but like good art reflects how it feels to look down a familiar yet uncanny path in life (no promises await at journeys end). those emotions I experienced will live forever as I think about and revisit this ending [whereas a plot twist can only be experienced once (not to say they are not worthwhile)]. I think the more time people spend with this game and ending they will come to see this explicitly or not - I think that’s why many people (including myself) have come around on remake. - I don’t think this point is articulated the best, but there are plenty of people who talk about this in relation to Lynch if this connected to anyone (I like Maggie Mae Fish’s Twin Peaks video) 😊
1:32:35 this part confused me at first, but now I think it’s just Sephiroth using the Jenova powers to confuse Rufus specifically by masquerading as Glenn. Which tells me that they were somehow close, but we never saw that in the currently released First Soldier story in EC, nor does it look like we will anytime soon given the next chapter for that will be around Sephiroth and Angeal. Best guess is they got close because of Rufus’ shenanigans in Before Crisis and his founding of rebel forces to take out his father, but still just speculation. Anyway, my monster length comment is coming soon. :3c
Well. Advent Children still has the best version of One Winged Angel. But that aside, very interesting changes to the original story structure to get us where we are. Though it makes me wonder how the next game is going to go. How much they'll add and alter. Though I'm curious if they'll have made it available to PC by then. (the sales were not all that)
Rebirth and original comparison by Playframe episode numbers: Start to 42:39, 1:25:43 to 1:30:05, and 1:37:42 to 1:38:53 - episode 23 Whoo boy what an eventful finale. And yeah, Dan I think nails it when talking about the concerns around this game's ending. You can certainly have an ending with ambiguity, that's up for discussion and debate. It probably shouldn't be at the end of the second part of three though.
I think part of what drives the counterproductive storytelling impulses that Dan talks about in his final rambles is something he references but doesn't say explicitly. He mentions that game storytellers want to give fans a mystery to puzzle over and keep them engaged and excited until the next game comes out; what he doesn't add is, _because there might always be a next game._ Games in the AAA space are not allowed to come to a natural conclusion based on narrative momentum because, if studios had it their way, no successful AAA franchise would _ever_ end. So the devs are left to try to sustain interest in any way they can. This game (presumably) is intended to have a definite conclusion, but maybe they fall into those bad habits regardless. Overall, though, I've enjoyed this experience immensely. Thanks as always to Dan and Carrie for a great playthrough!
Spoilers - Conversating about the end of the game At some point, I started wondering if all the convergence of timelines and splitting and the crap (don't have a better way to define it, sorry) ended up making it so Aerith actually survived (not get to the lifestream, but actual being alive, just like Zac), but in a broken timeline where she can only communicate with Cloud. But, tbh, this kind of ending is so open to interpretation can be considered - dead, alive, in Cloud's head... But definitely, they did spend their sweet time without actually explaining that the Crossroad of Fate of the ending of Remake was actually a thing and that multiple dimensions existed in parallel on the planet (a la Everything Everywhere All At Once). I kinda understand not explaining it at that point (question mark? At least it would seem plausible as the cast wouldn't know), but they could've started actually exploring it more clearly before Sephiroth's explainer 20 minutes into this episode - 80 minutes before the end. Though, I do have to wonder hard if all the Crossroads of Fate part is closed and if the story is to be following more clearly (as in, the timeline to be is closed and cannot be changed even if the team would not wish the outcome), or whether Sephiroth is trying to set the Fate of him winning become the only path forward, but the ramificated design of the planet is still intact. PS.: 129 hours. GEEZ (though I clocked 200 in Xenoblade Chronicles 3 lmao)
No I fully understand, Dan. I don't think you're just angry that they changed things. Personally I'm really enjoying a little of the mistery and where they are taking the story, but I also admit I thought I knew where they were taking the story till now and I'm not so sure anymore. I'd expect we'd have understood some important things by now, but I don't, at least not completly. I really think the next game will be what makes or breaks the story. If the ending works, I expect we will be very impressed, but if it doesn't or if we still can't understand it after we finish the game I think we will all be very disappointed...
The game was so glorious until they started doing the multiverse bull that is overplayed and dumb anymore. Took a 12/10 game and brought it down to an 8/10. So frustrating. You can almost see the discussions, "Do we kill Aerith?" "No, that's a key part of the original!" "Yes, we have to change it up to have a surprise!" "Why not both?" Changes and reinterpretation can be fine. They faltered heavily here for no reason though. Changes just to change things like removing Reno till the end of the game. I really missed Reno's presence and the back-and-forth he could have had between Rude and Elena. Instead we got Elena who just is not a pleasant character to watch. Then the entirety of the Zack stuff. What the hell was that? It would have been more impactful to just have Zack show up at the end all of a sudden rather than what we got. I feel like that was intended but then a contract dispute said Zack's actor needed more lines.
In the middle of the jenova battle (so like 1/4 through runtime) and I had the thought: Wait, so if there are multiple worlds, which splinter at major decisions, and assuming that the white whispers don't like sephiroph's intentions around the confluence, does that mean (in each world) the whispers' job is basically to ensure the boundaries between worlds are upheld ("fate" and each world has its own, making them distinct from each other) and minimizing the risk/possibility of uniting? (Unsure what/how much it matters moving forward, but it's a pretty cool premise.) ... maybe it's something addressed later in this or Dan poses a similar thought. I just didn't want to lose this realization, if it wasn't brought up and I got distracted by [gestures wildly] Edit during the end ramble: At first, I was like "what do you mean? Basically all they did was expand the scope (from "end of world" to "end of worldS). Makes total sense!" And him not being clear on what they wanted us to feel at the end "confusion! Unease! Worry! It was in the music, the acting, the juxtapositions! They seemed pretty clear on that." But then I thought more about my feelings in the moment and I was very confused and disoriented as events were playing out. And I'm still unclear on the motivations of several parties. Which, while mystery is great, it's not an ideal state for part 2 of 3 in a story. I feel like we should "get" more of it than we do. And I do smell the scent of "subverting audience expectations" off of it, which can be good in measured doses. Confusion and unease are valid feelings to evoke in an audience, but you better know how to balance/flavor it in a way that an audience can still want to follow through to the end. I'm still very interested in the conclusion of this, mostly to see the grand thesis statement of all of this. Because it very much is a meta commentary. And I don't doubt it'll be beautiful. But hopefully they'll tie this off thoroughly. (Anyway on to finish the video)
I really appreciate what they've been trying to do on a high level with this trilogy. So many 21st century adaptations take the easy road. Like the Harry Potter movies being too afraid to really try to do something "risky," ending up middling at best. Or Star Wars 7/8/9 fearfully retreating from their own attempts to try anything different, leaving us with soulless nostalgia pitches. This FF7 trilogy proves that not everyone is too scared to take risks. There's a potential for a strong reward here, but also the potential for significant failure, depending on how the 3rd game ends up. SPOILERS I think they realized that it wasn't possible to make the Aerith death scene as impactful as it was in the original. Even if they had done a beat-for-beat, scene-for-scene reproduction of it, it would have failed to deliver that gut punch that the original did (for the portion of the audience familiar with the OG FF7). So instead, they decided to put it to work, setting up things for the 3rd game. Doing it that way attenuated the scene and made it certain to have less emotional impact. I'm confident they knew this - the reality that, by removing the scene of Cloud carrying Aerith's body into the water, they'd taken out the most emotional part of the whole thing. As a partial "consolation prize," I think they gave us the Aerith date scene in the church, where she gives Cloud her white materia before accepting sacrifice at the hands of Sephiroth. That really was a great scene, IMO. Bottom line: will this pay off? It now depends on how they resolve these new uncertainties they introduced. My hypothesis is that the payoff for all of this is intended to be the Cloud-in-the-lifestream sequence from the original, which will likely be massively expanded like everything else in the Remake trilogy.
I gotta pontificate, and I'll try to be as non-spoilery as I can. Still, please take this as a spoiler warning. Probably parroting Dan more than I realize but and I don't know if this will make sense- The escalation has sort of trivialized the humanity in a way the original game didn't. I think how the multiverse was explored here sort of hollowed out the victories and losses that happened. It could be pacing, it be that it was explored a little too much with no through-line. I like the idea that Cloud is sort of stuck between a world where he saved Aerith and watched her die. I like that I feel like I can choose whether or not Cloud's reaction is healthy. That challenges me as a observer. I do not like that this COULD be Cloud dealing with grief and deluding himself, AND also literally happening in the fiction of the game. I think that's big nasty. The worst part is I ALMOST do like it. It almost reaches across the veil to the audience, almost feels like it has a comment about what FF7 fans want, or what it's like to lose a friend even if they're right in front you. I really (personally) dislike the use of narrative or analogies for mental health and giving making it a plot device. It turns it into a paper-thin aesthetic. It works a tiny bit for Cloud and could be used well in the future, but it really didn't for Dyne and that makes me nervous. It doesn't erase how damn good the characters are though, and how many nice moments there were. It still reinforces the humanity. I don't mind the Aerith/Sephiroth 4D chess. tldr; I think it could've been better ending with a healthy amount of that cut out. Schrodinger's Cloud works...I hope.
I'm impressed that Dan figured out that you had to hit the wings with their elemental weaknesses. That was not clear to me, and I had to eventually look up a guide to even realize that was the intention. Which in a way reflects how I feel about this ending in general. I'm generally on board now that I've had some time to sit and digest it a little. HOWEVER, I do wish that that the story was a little more clear about what was happening. I felt exactly the same about the scene at the end of the temple of the ancients and what went down with the black materia. I am perfectly fine with leaving the possibilities open for what happens down the line in future games, but in the actual moment-to-moment scenes, I really, REALLY wish the game was more explicit about the events that are presently occurring on screen instead of leaving it open to interpretation. The audience is left to figure out that Cloud is the only one who can see Aerith. He doesn't act confused or question it, and nobody really draws attention to the fact until the part about the sky. And while you can eventually put it together, the sheer confusion and doubt caused in that moment by the lack of any definitive answer left a very sour taste in my mouth. Maybe that's what the creators were going for, but in my opinion, the impression that any given scene in a game gives the player in the moment on first impression is just as important as the one that emerges only after time spent in contemplation, and it is definitely the more important of the two for the final scene in that game. I might be alone in this, and like I said, I did ultimately come around to liking the direction the game is going overall. I just really wish the game was designed in a way that made me feel that way when I was actually playing it. Tl;dr: I seem to have felt pretty much exactly how Dan felt by the end.
slight potential spoiler I'm betting they've reserving the actual impact of loss hitting Cloud for a particular scene from disc 2 in the next game. Anyhow, the 3rd game has to come full circle in a sensible way upon first experiencing it - for this new direction for the trilogy to be worth it
10:00 hey we can send one person to save aerith from sephiroth - hey let's send the guy who was acting literally like sephiroth and almost killed two of us already huh
It finally clicked for me!! FF7R... IS HOMESTUCK!! 😂 - Doomed timelines - Rabid fans - Slightly too big cast of amazing characters - Incredible music and cutscenes - Bonkers convoluted story threads no one has real answers for - An experience that drags a little too long in the middle - Ending that feels equal parts satisfying and disappointing - Fathomless missed potential fans will all feel in different ways for years to come It explains my paradoxical love and hate of the whole beautiful mess, too. 😋
I've been saying for years that if you are a fan of Homestuck you'll probably be a fan of Kingdom Hearts and vice versa and yeah the Doomed Timelines immediately made me think of Homestuck when I played Rebirth.
In addition to all that, the ultimate villain (so far) is an entity that wants things to go things his way and will enforce a sort of “canon events” upon the organic multiverse. Caliborn literally forces the story of SBURB/SGRUB to serve as his rise and neverending monument to nonexistence, and Sephiroth wants Cloud alienated (as he was in FF7) to be manipulated so that he can gains greater multiversal power.
- i mean, yeah Caith is gonna get whipped a lot if you keep running into every attack LMAO - so, are we still gonna prettend this trilogy is not a sequel? - finally get we the Aerith vs Sephiroth fight we craved since FF7 - also, yeah is very silly that everyone blames it on Nomura, when Yoko Taro does the same just as much for the Drakengard games - yeah i agree with that last ramble, also doesn't help Glenn's story is pretty much relegated to the mobile game
What we have of Glenn’s story is nigh immaterial to what’s in Rebirth tbh. Tho that latest mobile episode did him uhhhhhh negative favors for me anyway lol.
Finale, eh? It seems it's time. 0:53 Well, that certainly eased the minds of a few commenters. 10:28 I do like that platform's design a lot. 11:19 Familiar, but with extra residents. 14:02 I respect going in with the Buster sword. 14:41 We get to hear the prayer now! 17:17 That was different. His entrance this time was spectacular. 38:15 Cait, are these bodies Phoenix Down operated or something? Is there a coin-op model you can bring? 40:11 that actually doesn't bother me in and of itself. It's the "it's just immune now" phases that annoy me. 44:15 I cannot see anything but Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan in Zack's pose. Also, I have no clue wtf is going on anymore. 45:40 Tell that to Psy-Ops. That game was half tutorial popups and flashbacks. 50:06 Uh... okay, game. 57:38 Yes Barret, yes it is. 1:00:42 I don't know, Zack. Not even the slightest. 1:19:10 It appears to hurt exactly as much as Max HP - 1. 1:21:29 The longer this fight goes on, the more the arena feels very FF16. Also, he's doing his own version of Hades's move from KH, which amuses me greatly. 1:42:33 Extra option: Aerith is dead, but occupying a similar space in Cloud's head as Sephiroth. He can see and interact with her, but nobody else can. 1:43:15 CID IS VOICED BY J MICHAEL TATUM!? I would literally have never guessed. Also, how the fuck does he keep popping up in the same franchises as some of my favourite female characters? 1:55:04 Personally, I feel less "confused" and more something I lack the word for right now. I'm asking what the point was. I followed the threads, pieced together an interpretation of what happened that makes sense to me, but it is immediately followed with "but... why?", which I don't think is a good place to be at credits. Yes, I know what I said earlier in this comment block. 1:56:25 I will contest that: Recently, in the Shadowbringers series, there was a big deal about a specific Mi'qote being revealed as a major player. I have no clue who he is, what his tie to Allag is, nothing. He's just *there* and I don't know *why*. Perhaps more accurately, I don't know why that Mi'qote is significant beyond what he's done in Shadowbringers. Apparently he's involved with an optional raid series? I guess? I feel like the WoL in that scene is in a completely different postcode to where I was.
@@timothystamm3200 So you're saying that they pulled a character from about 9yrs ago out of a hat and expected everyone to recognize him? Shadowbringers is about 10yrs into FF14's lifecycle, right? I can't think of a single piece of media where a true one-off character is pulled out 9 *years* later like this. Even my experience with Dr Who and TNG doesn't have this problem.
@the6ofdiamonds Harry Potter brought back a character at the beginning of the fifth book after not mentioning them since the first book. I'm pretty sure the fifth came out in 2003, and the first was published in 1997. Also, I'm pretty sure the old man who owns the house in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe isn't mentioned again until the sixth book of the Chronicles of Narnia, the Magician's Nephew. That's 1950 to 1955. Also, the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit came out around that time, and then the Silmarillion was published in the seventies. I expect they thought that people who have been replaying raids in roulette would remember the tower and thus G'raha. That and the flashback after is probably all they thought was necessary. Though do remember they hadn't talked about Lahabrea for years before he started coming up again during Shadowbringers and the late Stormblood patches, same with the Warriors of Darkness. P.S. the Hobbit came out in 1937, and the Fellowship of the Ring came out in 1954. So Bilbo went without mention for seventeen years. P.P.S. The Silmarillion wasn't published until 1977. Twenty-two years after the initial publishing of the Lord of the Rings.
@@timothystamm3200 That's secondary to what Dan had said. Dan's point was, by my understanding, specific to when you first experience the event. Not just "you can piece it together later".
@the6ofdiamonds and I agreed by pointing out that there should have been more of a reminder as the reveal occurred, at least if you had done Crystal Tower, which now everyone has to do. I realize my memory is an exception, as is some people's ability to remember faces. P.S. I think they thought the constant replaying of old content that happens in raid and other instance roulettes would remind people of the Crystal Tower and thus G'raha Tia.
Spoilers for episode and opinion following: First off, thanks Dan for the amazing let’s play. Always a joy to see how you interact with these games and stories. I personally love this game and how the game brings out so much more of the characters and adds to their personalities, and is one of the few open world games I love in spite of the fact that I don’t actually like open world games. However, I HATE the changes they made to the ending, specifically relating to the Aeriths death. Nothing the game has added related to alternate worlds or Zacks presence or any of that has been worth ruining the gut punch of Aeriths death to be replaced with spectacle and confusion. Hopefully the third game makes these elements actually satisfying, but right now, I have to think that all the new stuff (as far as actual plot points, not the character interactions) is actually making the story worse.
At this point, I sincerely think the third game is already ruined. They will either double back on this point to claim it is all in Aerith’s head, waffle like they do so now, or make things far more unexpected in a way that ruins everything. I feel that the writing is on the wall despite the fact that we are years away from the sequel of this game.
@@turquoisemaple To be fair the phoenix down doesn't actually resurrect someone, it brings them back from total exhaustion. When your HP reaches zero you don't die, you just get knocked down.
My feeling overall is that this game, and this ending, are a loving tribute to the character of Aerith. This version of events doesn't undo the original tragedy (either in or out of the story, as in our world, the original game still exists, and in the story, remember, _it already happened)._ But it gives Aerith something of a say in it. It gives her a voice. It lets her say "goodbye." It's not the same, but it wasn't meant to be. They were never going to be able to recreate that moment, because part of the power of that original moment was that it was so shocking. You can't really shock people with the same moment using the same character, especially when that moment has become one of the most famous spoilers in the medium, the "Luke, I am your father" of video games. So they didn't try. Instead, they did exactly what they've been doing this whole time; create something new that exists in conversation with the old. I've elaborated on it elsewhere, but to sum it up, I think Aerith's arc in this game is essentially about accepting her own death and choosing not to change it, because she knows the timeline where she dies is the one where all her friends live. So much focus is given near the end of the game to how much Aerith just absolutely adores this ragtag group of misfits, and how the most important thing in the world to her is that THEY are safe. And it's not like she never falters; there are a couple of moments in the game where we see that she's genuinely really upset add all of the things she never got to {and will never get to) experience. She's still human. But in the end , she chooses selflessness, putting her in both thematic and literal opposition to Sephiroth. And maybe time-traveling Aerith moving through the five stages of grief is a little much for you, I get that. But we've been in time travel territory since Remake; at some point, you've either gotta accept that as part of the ride, or get off the train. And me? I'm here until the end of the line.
"at some point, you've either gotta accept that as part of the ride, or get off the train" -- Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who feels differently should not play part 3? "maybe time-traveling Aerith moving through the five stages of grief is a little much for you, I get that" I haven't seen this complaint out there at all. The arrogance, the condescension. You need to touch some grass my dude.
@@DCHutch8 no, I'm saying the opposite. I literally do get it. I hated the ending of the first game. I was so fucking mad. But I dunno, man, I realized at some point that it was just kinda pointless. I had two choices; I could either stay mad about it going forward and be immediately annoyed and unhappy every time it came up in the next game, which it inevitably would, or I could chill and see where they were going with it. And ultimately, I decided that I liked enough of what they were doing with all the other stuff enough to give them some leeway for the parts that clearly weren't done yet. You don't have to do that, you don't have to do anything. I just used a silly train metaphor as a nod to Barret from the OG.
SPOILERS BELOW: ... ... I did a lot of research when I first beat the game, trying to make sense of what happened. There's a lot to dissect, but I want to focus on one detail: the burst of rainbow light around 17:00. The light has previously been used when a branch in fate occurs. We saw it when Zack was deciding which tunnel to go down. This suggests there are two different outcomes, resulting in two different timelines. In one, Cloud saves Aerith. In the other, he fails. Ultimately, we land in the timeline where he fails, but until Sephiroth's desired reunion occurs, there's still another world in which Aerith survives. Some believe this is the Aerith who helps us fight Sephiroth in the final battle, as we see more rainbow light when she appears. This has given some hope to people that she might return in full, perhaps as a result of Sephiroth's reunion. As for why Cloud can still see and converse with Aerith, I think Dan is correct: Cloud is somehow able to see both worlds. I've also seen theories suggesting that Cloud's degradation has progressed even further, such that he's seeing additional things that aren't real, but I like that theory less, so I choose to discard it. After all, Red also seems able to sense her briefly, suggesting she really is there in some form, though only Cloud can fully interact with her. Overall, my feelings about the game largely echo Dan's. I enjoyed 95% of the journey, but the muddiness of the ending really falls flat for me. I still hope that the third game will wrap things up cleanly, but I'm trying to temper my expectations. Anyway, thanks to Dan for playing through this one, and thanks to Carrie for the wonderful editing! I look forward to the next series (cough-Elden-Ring-DLC-cough).
I wouldn't put money on things wrapping up cleanly. If you watch the playthrough of FF& original Dan makes a big deal about how the ending is pretty ambiguous.
Ooh. Someone whose opinion I want to hear about that ending scene. I... believe the "goodbye" at the end comes from a yellow flower in the screen's bottom left.
Very well explained. I love what they're doing with all this stuff honestly but I just wish it was more clear. Like Dan said we shouldn't be leaving with confusion as our main emotion, and if the game told us this stuff as well and clearly as you did we wouldn't mind
@@Doomsword0 Glad to hear I could help. I shared in everyone else's confusion, enough that I went digging for answers. I had hoped my little summary would alleviate at least some of that confusion for others.
Materia's power comes from absorbing the memories, skills, and experiences of its bearers. Consider what it would mean if the Clear Materia is a blank slate--it's a vacuum waiting to be filled, and Aerith wears it throughout all these events. The Clear Materia would be full of _Aerith_ (whatever she has become). Might that be the source of Cloud's ability to see her, as well as echoes of the other worlds?
1:35:11 Possibly an art/animation question: what is going on with that specific thing in that person's hand? More specific spoilery details: Said thing appears to be the empty materia Aerith handed Cloud. Makes sense, he did put it in hos pocket. It looks clear or reflective from one angle, then it appears an opaque black from another. Does it look different when the camera angle changes because we see Cloud's glove through the item? Is it a different Cloud with a different materia? Is it half and half?
Thanks Dan and Carrie for the amazing playthrough! It's been a joy to watch all the way to the end (boy, this game is big). And yeah, I have similar thoughts about the game and the ending in particular - loved how they've developed the characters and the world in incredible ways, but I can't really feel like I have an opinion on the ending until we can see whether it gets a satisfactory payoff in the last game or not
Glad you brought up FFXIV as a counter-example to this type of storytelling. It really is a master work in long-term storytelling. Sure, it leaves mysteries at the end of some points (e.g. the Ascians at the end of ARR), but those don't take away from the emotional beats. We might not know what Lahabrea is, but we know SPOILER is saved from him. And we do end up getting satisfying answers, too. Which is something Kingdom Hearts didn't give us, and is something I fear the Remake project might not. Let's hope it ends up like FFXIV and this all makes perfect sense by the end.
I have no hope. At this point, bad habits are set in stone, and good habits are fleeting and in the hand of one or a few people swatted away so easily.
I think that opening will make some people very happy, heh! Bold move to include a tutorial at the very end of the game. XD Platforming in a final boss fight? What is this, Devil May Cry 4?
I think Dan’s discussion about the story during the credits perfectly nails my feelings about this game’s story. I couldn’t be fully sad at the end like I wish I could have been, because I was just confused and trying to piece things together.
Same, it's why I wish they'd either played it straight or gone for a bigger change. It feels like they tried to do both and it just ends up taking away from itself.
Seriously. As someone who hasn't played the original but is well aware of Aerith's death as one of the most iconic character deaths in all of video games, I was just mystified at how this was supposed to be a satisfactory ending. This was no impact at all to her death - you don't see it on screen, you don't see her pierced with Sephiroth's sword, and it was certainly not clear to me that she actually died at that moment. I was 50-50 on if it was real or if it was some fake out and she would die later. So watching like 90 minutes of combat in between a character's death and when I realize it's a Real Death... For me it fell completely flat. And I teared up at Aerith's flashback with her mother a few episodes ago, so it's not like I'm not emotionally invested here.
I think Tifa should have died.
Let me be clear, I don't dislike Tifa, nor am I dismissing her importance to the story. On the contrary, because she is so deeply connected to Cloud and his mental issues, her death would have horrible ramifications for Cloud's well-being. Furthermore, if Aerith lives, she might not be able to contribute to giving Holy that extra push at the end. These two key facts would make Sephiroth even more likely to succeed in his bid for godhood than the original timeline, if he were to kill Tifa instead of Aerith. Aerith, I'm sure, would have no shortage of existential angst over being given a reprieve from death, at the cost of losing Tifa, who she was clearly becoming close friends with.
From there, there are two ways it could go. If the party still manages to pull through and save the world despite this massive change to the plot, it only further cements that Sephiroth is fated to fail. Alternatively, this change does make victory impossible for our heroes, and so they have to return to the original timeline, which means that Aerith is saddled with a terrible burden, to willingly give up her life, so that Tifa can return and make things right. I could see either way working.
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say that's a really cool idea and I like the detail of the how's and why's you put into it.
That really should have happened since the conceit of this story is that Sephiroth learned from his mistakes and is now more determined to make Cloud suffer to put him under control. In that sense, Tifa, being the actual support of Cloud, should have died. Even if Aerith is dear, it is clear Tifa is Cloud’s support.
the worst part about being confused about a story is not knowing if i'm supposed to be confused and vibe with it, or if i'm supposed to understand and don't.
if i KNOW it's the former, i can vibe.
but i will second guess every bit of knowledge until i get my feet on the ground again
Im genuinely curious if im in the minority. After beating the game I was simply feeling "oh this is cool, oh i get whats going on, oh im not so sure about that it will be cool to find out,". I was never really confused. And as far as the emotional feelings at the ending...i think they made the decision to aim for something different. No one was going to get that impact of Aerith dying again. We all knew it could happen, and if it had happened just straight as i think it would have just been "ah ok iv been worried this whole time, guess thats were it ended again" rather then the gut punch of the original. I think for me the emotional...gut punch i guess...came over the course of the game just by them showing how badly Cloud was being affected, how much he was losing himself, and the constant feeling of just how badly is it going to go for him as the game continued.
14:54 Aerith’s prayers hurt me here man. I love that we get to hear them this time, but woof, the last of her kind thing still stings. ;;
I echo Dan’s sentiments in the credits section. It was such a long and amazing game, just to get to that ending and walk away confused. Then I felt frustrated by my confusion, and while I’m content to say “let’s see where it’s going in re-3”, that’s a hard pill to swallow at the same time. I do love the game, but with all the time spent on side quests and random animations, I would’ve loved to have a little time spent for clarity right at the end.
Thank you for your excellent work as always, both to Dan and Carrie!!💜
The unmitigated crulty of making Cait the most difficult character to play, being the last addition to the playable team, AND having a gap between when you last get to play him before tossing him into the final boss rush. Square why must you do my boy dirty like that.
They also remove everything on him besides his weapon when he leaves the party, and it's easy to forget to fix that and go into the final battle with a papier-mâché robot cat who dies to a stiff breeze. Very frustrating.
@@psyched1804 On the other hand the game tells you the last moment to set up your heroes. Dan checks and ponders everybody else but Cait Sith.
Is there any way to influence who ends up in your party for any stage of the fight without Cloud, Zack or Aerith, or is it preset? Or just random?
I like that at @35:50 we get a visual reference to Advent Children. Instead of everyone boosting Cloud up. He's getting boosted down at the boss
aerith's theme playing during the battle...
And the way it morphs, is _infected_ by Jenova's... I have my issues with the game but the music is absolutely fantastic.
@@Ahrpigi totally agree!
@@turquoisemaple it's especially good in the ost version, where you can hear it slowly creep in without the need for gameplay phase transition
4:51 NANAKI you can’t just ask that
2:02 there's that gorgeous Advent Children music again
8:55 Yuffie hiding behind Barret; yeah I'm still loving their bond, he's totally got two adopted daughters now 😊
17:17 I'm big confused about this whole sequence, but damn if it's not some of the most beautiful game I've ever seen
19:11 OK THAT'S *COLD* 😢
Jenova fight: idk, something about the same, tired combat lines feels out of place here.
45:35 that's not just 11th hour, it's 11-55
50:04 yeah, this is definitely not a game for people who haven't played OG...
1:12:58 like Smash Bros introduction
2:03:22 'I wish them good luck on the production of the next on, bringing this whole trilogy thing in for a landing'
I hope they do a better job at it than Cid did with the Tiny Bronco.
There’s a lot that happens here but the one thing I want to touch on is, I think it’s cool how everyone starts the fight with Jenova with their Limit Break, except Cloud. Because why would he? He saved her, he saw her alive! She will later tell him to go after Sephiroth and everything, a thing Aerith definitely wants him to do and isn’t specifically the thing she told him not to do
Tbh I suspect the reason for the lack of LB for Cloud is bc he used it trying(?) to save her. Goes into the competing theories I’m waiting to post until we’re further in lol.
@@Caterfree10I don’t think Cloud saved her. He thinks he did, and we watch him repress the memory in real time as it happens
@XTheUnchosenOneX I think Cloud did save her, thus creating a new timeline yet at that very moment Sephiroth merged all timelines, hence why he laughs.
At this point however, the timelines merging causes Cloud to see memories from both timeliness making him think he saved her but she is actually dead.
@@aytony4090I don’t think there are “timelines” in any meaningful sense of the word, those are essentially purgatories created out of the hopes and dreams of those who returned to the Lifestream, and who returned to the Lifestream in that moment? Aerith did.
I actually think trying to piece together the exact mechanics of all the worlds is unnecessary, as their primary purpose in the story is to be a metaphor for Cloud’s increasingly fractured mental state. That’s why we see more and more of them get created as Cloud falls apart more and more.
I really hadn’t planned to get into this but I kind of brought it on myself here
@@aytony4090 I think Jenova has taken on the form of Aerith - earlier than when one might think. I believe Sephiroth is saying he underestimated Jenova, not Aerith. 1:13:21
But... I also think the ending "goodbye" comes from the yellow flower on the screen's lower left, so... 1:40:43
Now to the end of the credits finally, and ngl I feel similarly after Rebirth. I didn’t feel that way after Remake as I was hype at the idea that the devs wanted a canon divergent AU. After Rebirth and how unclear Aerith’s fate seems to be and the way they (hopefully intentionally) muddled the emotions of that scene with that boss rush (at least one or two of those Avalanche fights could have been cut imho), I’m just. Idk, I’m really really praying part 3 sticks the landing and makes the changes worth it. I love the changes overall. But man, I need some really good justification if they’re going to keep Aerith dead.
I'm surprised to hear so many people say they don't get the point of changing the story if you *don't* save Aerith. For me, the cop out would have been if the entire point of the game was to take away the *one big death* everybody knows about.
This is a great series of fights, some very cool spectical, love how it utilizes the various party members...but an hour long fight is toooooo much
Especially at top intensity throughout almost all of it.
I really wish I could send a message to all JRPG writers: there's a difference between "mysterious" and "confusing", and if your player is confused during what's supposed to be the big emotional climax of your story, you've screwed up. In order to be fully emotional engaged in a story, the audience can't feel like they don't even understand what's happening. Confusion will undermine everything else you're trying to do, regardless of how cool the music and visuals are, and should be avoided like the plague unless you're deliberately doing some kind of avant-garde surrealist work.
You know what's never happened? You've never been playing something and thought to yourself, "Wow, this is pretty cool. I sure wish I understood what was happening less."
Edit: lol Dan basically said all this during the credits, this was me ranting in the middle of the episode
You-know the one thing I hope for after that confusing ass ending, is that, since Cloud doesn’t seem stuck on his own grief this time, we’ll get to see him help the others (especially Tifa and Nankai) through their own grief
2 hour grand finale 🥳
I absolutely loved this game, I have my own theories on the ending, but all in all a awesome experience that I never forget, can't wait for Part 3
A few things. First off, I loved this game and this playthrough. Thank you Dan.
Ending spoilers all over the place below.
Second, I agree with you about a lot of the stuff you said in the credits. I liked Aerith in these games so much more than in the original. She had so many great moments, and I especially loved the relationship they built with Tifa. So I was expecting her death to feel so much more terrible. And instead, I guess she's like a ghost in the lifestream or something who's going to keep talking to Cloud in the next game, Advent Children-style?
And I did honestly think there was a chance that they did what they were teasing since the end of Remake and she would live - the playground rumour about a way for her to survive finally come true. I appreciate that narratively, this would be super difficult to make work, but I did honestly think it was possible. I was even half-convinced it was going to happen when she 'woke up'.
All that said, I look forward to the third game and your playthrough very eagerly. I'll see you there.
@51:20 Shadow of the Cloudlossus!
speaking as someone who never played the original and has been viewing this as a stand alone product, I was deeply disheartened when the finale of remake came around because I had hoped to experience a retelling of what was one of the most beloved Final Fantasy games ever made, one that I had missed growing up. Ironically, when they 'changed fate' in the first game, all they did was tie this game down to the original, because now the tangle of the alternate world plot is making it harder to proceed without knowledge of the original. From the reactions of this comment section, it seems like even people who do have the requisite knowledge are confused about where things are heading now. What really kills me about this is it seems like the most convoluted, awkward justification for changing things in a game. Remakes should change and expand on things. The fact they they needed to add the whispers and alternate realities and constant flashes of characters that newcomers to the game won't recognize to justify giving side characters more personality or characters meeting in different circumstances that don't really alter the main plot arc baffles me. It's like they're fighting for creative freedom only to turn around and refuse to actually use it, and the end result is worse for both old and new fans.
Say whatever else you will about Sephiroth - he's *_really_* good at flying, considering he only has one wing.
47:46 - Dan, haven't you learned anything from this crew? In this world weapons have the inverse effectiveness that they have in the real world. Guns have to be fired hundreds of times to leave a scratch, swords need dozens of slashes to be effective, but going in with fists and feet is DEVASTATING! So yeah, Zach's knows what's up!
Also... anyone else have a brain fart when the Assess said "Unable to read" for Sepheroth? I was like "What? But we saw him reading all those books at Shinra Mansion! How is he suddenly illiterate?!"
1:23:23 - Cloud: "Why is he laughing?" - Aerith: "Because he knows this isn't over." - Me: "Oh come on! How many more phases does this movie-length boss fight have?! 😩"
1:27:03 - I can't help but feel like this entire Re-7 saga exists purely so that everyone's wish fulfillment of Aerith living can come true. I mean the meta-plot of these games is literally fighting against the preordained plot of the original game. Aerith lives, Zach lives, everyone lives... at least for now... in some universe or other... so that everything happens as in the original while also totally changing it all. MULTIVERSE!!!
If you’ve played Crisis Core you know how strong punches can be
I'm sorry. WHAT. THE. FRICK. about the second paragraph
Well, good journey
It was a very fun watch
In the original pretty much any character could do anything so Aerith's lost was mostly an emotional one
I wonder how they will balance the third game around not having a mage. Neither Vincent nor Cid look like they could be a decicated spellcaster
thank you Dan for all these videos 🥺💕
I think cloud is somehow interacting with lifestream aerith now she has died?
But ?????
Everything is so vague
So my issues with this game are largely minor, Dyne's whole segment being one of the more major ones, and the rest being stuff like them not using a remix of Birth of a God for the Sephiroth Reborn fight (I really hope they find a way to stick it into part 3, given that I don't think they'll reuse Sephiroth Reborn for the semifinal boss, having used him here in Rebirth)
Having already played it watching the ending now, with the knowledge of LOTS of analyses and theories, I'm not really confused anymore. But honestly I think that was the point and I'm mostly invested in how they're gonna wrap this up it part 3, because I feel like that's where the true emotional gutpunch (and some of the obvious missing stuff here) is gonna land. If we got it now, in the same way as the OG, I'm not sure I would have felt it as much. Still cried like a baby. 😂
ALSO GODDAMN THEY ARE COOKING WITH THE JENOVA THEMES. ❤
Also also good to see Barrett finally sticking the landing at the very end.
Thus concludes FFVII Rebirth. I guess we'll see you next time in FF7... Afterbirth?
2 hrs!! I get my popcorn.
i don't really feel confused or unfulfilled here so im just gonna dump a rant of how i feel. although completely understandable dan, and I can see where you're coming from, and the way you put it is very good.
So, pretty obviously, one of if not the big thing going into this game was will aerith die? and obviously a lot of people wanted it to go one way and a lot of people wanted it to go other way.
This ending feels to me like the devs went huh well how about we do something completely different and give you both. which imo is repeating themselves from the first game a bit but also committing to their decision of doing what they want? while also being like hey this is what you get when you're indecisive it's not that great is it huh?
i dunno if its worth sacrificing an emotional moment for that kind of gotcha but also like. we (and i mean pretty much everyone who heard of ff7) all know aerith is supposed to die here. even with all the additions and much sweeter dynamic between her and cloud i do not think this would have been such a crushing moment. (and if she straight up didn't die i feel like it would not be a moment at all, they seemed to have understood that with cait sith and made that "revival" much better)
And finally, cloud. Given they have been showing his conditions much more throughout the game, making him go this much more distant - literally disconnected at the end is imo a nice way to "fix it", give that extra tension at the end. I think that within this story they decided on we are quite in sync with Cloud's feelings which is obviously what they want us to be and i think that's good storytelling. slightly if not very unsure of what is real and what is not, but still needing to go farther.
Im gonna say it... i really love this ending
oh my god it's two hours.
tbf, unless you're very invested in the combat, most of it is skippable
Sat on the ending for a day so far. I think my thoughts can be summed up thusly:
all the Final Fantasy 7 games have weirdly emotionally confusing endings so this one is par for the course.
OG FF7 ended with people not really sure if the planet was saved or not, particularly with the epilogue with Red XIII. you could take it charitably and say everything ended well but the game itself doesn't give you that answer, and so it ends in a kind of confusingly weird place where we don't really get the answers to what happened until the movie came out years later.
FF7 Remake is also really confusing, like it's inspiring that they broke destiny or whatever but then Zack shows up out of nowhere bringing Cloud into the city just as the group is leaving so it's like, what is happening? is this related to breaking fate somehow? does that mean Zack is alive in an alternate dimension, or are we in an alternate dimension?
so if anything, FF7 Rebirth gives us probably the clearest ending yet; we know that Cloud is not alright, and is seeing things that aren't there. we know that Zack is alive in an alternative timeline to the one we're in, and so is Aerith, and that they both have some influence on the world that Cloud is in. this still leaves us with questions like, what is real, but again, that's par for the course with these games.
"what am I supposed to be feeling?" seems to be the favourite question every FF7 ends with
Sperler-y talk:
I'm of the opinion that Aerith could always see in both worlds; I'm willing to bet that we could look through the last game and this one and we'd see hints of that in some of her cryptic words or actions. And now because of recent events and contact with the life stream/etc, Cloud can see all of that too. As to whether she's been saved in one but not the other, that *sounds* right but I'm not sure. It may also be that Cloud is alive in one and not the other as well.
Nevermind that with all the Stamps we've seen there's likely to be a lot more worlds than just the two. How many of them exist at any given time is anyone's guess. I can see how they might do a "dual world" story here but all that really makes me think is that this version might be more "choose your own interpretation of the ending" than the original.
At the very-very end of Remale when it originally came out she had the line "I miss the steel sky" or something like that. They then patched it to be "This sky.. I don't like it." (again something like that, might not be exact). I'm willing to bet the reason she didn't like the sky was the psychotic smiley breach-face in the sky
I wonder if we're misled by "Stamps Champs" though. Chip brands do often have more than one flavor. What if some Stamps are alternate Stamps while others are Stamp Champs, some separate high ranking doggo?
I want to go against the crowd and say that I enjoy the recent Square-Enix nebulous, wacky storytelling, in small doses. I'm not that much into kingdom hearts (i know the story thanks to Dan), or I have any interest in theory crafting. I just enjoy piecing together the implications and the ramifications and having to run to catch up to the story. I think that's still an effective storytelling, even if not on an emotional level. I'm keeping up with FF XIV on the channel, but even if everyone sings its praises, I've never felt that engaged in its story, even during the big reveals. Maybe this plays a part in that.
I do not love us having Aerith's death both ways, makes it lose its impact. The third game could salvage this for sure but it feels like a massive waste if she dies in such a fuzzy noncommittal way.
Hoo boy, can't wait to see how this one goes down with the fanbase. Buckle up folks.
Uhh, spoilers, if you're reading before you get about 20 mins in
I get the people upset that Aerith still had to die, but to be fair, they actually did give us a lot more time with her.
Also someone apparently recently discovered a glitch in the OG that lets you revive her, kind of, so I mean, there's that.
I feel something else that for with your talk on the credits
something that hurts this story vs the original for this is time
in stand alone games all the big questions that are set up have to be answered there isn't a next part to come back to answer the question ,no years of time between each installment to theory craft on the crumbs we've been shown assuming the writers have everything internally consistent right from the rip
and I feel that is the biggest risk for this remake project years between installments but with how long games take to make and how expensive they are to make they can't just wait until they are ready to release everything a year apart for each other to have the gap be lean
for now I will accept the confusion in hopes that the explanation given will be of a similar caliber to writing skill as the characterization of this party , and hope that the team that made this game is still mostly in place so the 3rd part can be out sooner rather than later
1:22:00 Much like Dan I died here, right at the end. I'm guessing he had to do the same and just didn't show it but I had to go and fight that entire hours worth of fights again just for that last tiny bit of one health bar. That sucked
You don't have to go back through all the fights, you can reset to just the beginning of the last one with Sephiroth.
@@Jersa7 Welp, apparently I just hit the wrong button I guess, that woulda been nice to know
VIDEO SPOILERS, and also mild spoilers for Doctor Who S14E3 ("Boom")
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"But Aerith is gone."
"Don't be silly. She's not gone. She's just... dead. But she's not gone."
If she still died then this whole remake project is pointless. She was supposed to live
@@AngelPerez-tu1nk 🙄
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter Don't give me that condescending look I'm right
@@AngelPerez-tu1nk Dan puts it best in his end credits monologue. They have made some very welcome changes to the original story, fleshing out character dynamics, expanding on story elements that felt underdeveloped, all while reimagining old locations in high fidelity. We've gotten so much good stuff out of these remakes. Which is why I am so annoyed that you dismiss all of those things as "pointless" as you tunnel in on just one thing you dislike.
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter It was the only thing that freaking mattered that's why
Honestly, what a great ending. They really did have their cake and eat it too. They... they really did it.
2:05:30 Is there even a Final Fantasy seven part three because I don’t think there is one or at least one that wasn’t made or are they making one? If so, I would definitely check it out but as far as I know the next one that continues this Final Fantasy seven is in a movie form? Or is there a final fantasy seven part three that I haven’t heard about yet?😢😮⁉️
The remake (lowercase r) is a three-part series that consists of Remake (capital R!), Rebirth (this one) and the not-yet released third part. The film Advent Children, if it remains canon, would come after the not-yet released part 3, if we're putting things in story order.
So short answer: yes, there will be a part 3, it's not made yet
As far as the compilation is concerned, there are 2 entries that are after the OG. Advent Children is the movie that takes place 2 years after OG, and Dirge of Cerberus is the game that takes place a year after that. Pretty much all the rest of the titles are prequels.
I think this game is great when it cares about characters, but as soon as it tries to talk about the big picture it just can't seem to do anything but raising questions without ever delivering payoffs (a bit like Kingdom hearts or recent Doctor Who).
And I think this complete divorce from the themes of the story of this big picture """"mystery"""" really ruins my enjoyment of both.
I don't... like this.
I am SO confused. Like, almost worse than Kingdom Hearts confused.
It feels like they made _so_ many questionable decisions in the span of one episode.
Regardless though, thank you for the playthrough as always, Dan and Carrie!
Prediction for Final Fantasy VII Réunion (Part 3)
Claim there is a race against time to stop sephiroth but undermine that idea with every element, theme, tone, and direction throughout a game filled with reused assets with the exception of some cosmetic changes and the addition of the northern biome.
Find energy barrier preventing access to northern crater and sephiroth. Go to icicle village 2hours. Find gast's research. Piss around in the snow 2hours. Sephiroth nonsense wutai shinra reminder. With the narrative importance of Mideel already covered twice in rebirth we skip it and decide to go to wutai to see if there are any answers there. Piss around wutai 4hours. Discover the huge materia plan. War kicks off between Shinra and Wutai. Back to Cosmo canyon 2hours. Zack and Aerith stuff 2hours. Return to City of the ancients with buggs 2hours. North Correl big materia 2hours. Zack, Aerith and Cloud stuff 2hours. Rocket town big materia 4hours. Junon big materia 2hours. Return to Wutai to get their big materia stolen during the war 2hours. Do the Sunken ship thing 2hours. Return to buggs in forgotten capital with new mcguffin. Sister Ray fires not at weapon but wutai Weapons decide that's enough. Fight army of Weapons plague world map leading to huge battle outside midgar 4 hours. Weapon peppers Midgar with magic bullets. Sister Ray fires again. Weapon is defeated. Side questing to fend off weapons all over. Return to midgar 4hours. Northern crater 4hours. Kingdom hearts nonsense 2hours. End with literally no one caring anymore.
I just want to stop and say how much I appreciate the excellent (and organized) way Dan manages the playlists for the channel. I love knowing I'll be able to find anything.
I think the story is implying that Aerith is manifesting similarly to the way Sephiroth is, and maybe only Cloud is sensitive enough to pick it up, either due to the SOLDIER experiment or because he has the Black/White Materia. Red's reaction at the end would imply he is also sensitive enough to sense Aerith, but only when she's very close. But I guess we'll see if I'm right.
If you go back a few game chapters and watch, Zack, just like Cloud, can a tear in the sky, something that only seems visible to those who know of/have experienced other worlds.
I think you're right on that - but I think it would be a better game if they'd made it clearer.
As far as I recall, the remake series hasn't really explained what's up with Sephiroth to that extent (i.e. the "yup, he's totally dead, his body is frozen in the glacier in the north, these are just ghost projection shapeshifty kinda things not actual teleportation" explanation that comes later in FF7 original). An explanation of that (or a recap somewhere closer to the end if we had had it) would make the parallel more obvious.
Similarly, whatever shenanigans Sephiroth pulled to go from "world where Cloud parried the attack" to "world where Aerith is stabbed" are also either new, or only happened long enough ago that they don't seem familiar - some lesser version of that foreshadowed, e.g., at the collapse of the temple when Sephiroth recovers the Black Materia would make that moment hit a lot more as "Oh fuck he did the thing and she's dead" rather than "what the heck is going on?"
The common thread of both of these is a lot of what Dan's talking about - you can have big mysteries that leave the players asking questions, and you can have big emotional moments, and you can even mix them quite a bit - but IMO it's better to space out the "point where the player starts asking big questions" from the "point where the player has big emotions", otherwise neither lands as well as they could
I think it's Jenova not Aerith, we are told several times that Jenova wears the faces of the dead/loved ones it's a deceiver/manipulator, yet we never see it happen. I think this is what's happining. That's why Sephiroth is "happy" with the state Cloud is left in. I think the real Aerith will show up in the life stream, but we haven't seen her yet ever since she died we've been seeing Jenova. Like before city of the ancients in the woods she tells Cloud focus on yourself leave Sephiroth to me, but now she's telling him to go after him it's kinda weird.
Oh! I wasn't expecting the finale today!
Well, I just wanted to say that this might be the best let's play out there. Not because of the game, but because of how exceptional Dan and Carrie's production have been. PlayFrame is always fun and respectful, but this was top-notch. The hilarious edits, the thoughtful commentary, the courteous spoiler tape, the choices in what content to show and what to cut, the thorough and helpful chapter timestamps on every video... And that's just some of the hard work I can see. I'm sure there were (likely technical) difficulties none of us will ever have any idea happened with how flawless the final product is. I'm sure this series was a behemoth of work, and I'm grateful for my truly delightful time with it 🩷💚.
Everyone gets their limit in the OG as well, but in this everyone gets it *except* for Cloud. I think that is very interesting and somewhat telling.
Even just a line of Sephiroth saying to the group "You are not the only ones seeking to change fate", maybe having knowledge that he was destined to fail, but is fracturing the timeline enough to find one where he wins and then bringing that outcome to reality in every timeline. At the end of this game, the characters should at least be aware that there are multiple worlds based on them fighting fate in the first game, but hopeful that they could win, even if they lost Aerith and all seems hopeless, because Sephiroth hinted they were able to do it once.
Hi, person who's never played the original FF7 here, I cannot overstate how invested I am in this series now. I am so endlessly thankful for everything about this Let's Play: the analysis of both the original and the remake, the geeking out, the courteous and absolutely perfect content performed off-screen to streamline the viewing experience, and the sense of humour in both the commentary and the editing is absolutely spot-on.
One of the biggest things I love about this game is that level of silliness they're willing to throw themselves into, it is so freaking REFRESHING to see all the ways the original game is honoured, faithfully or otherwise, to not have it all painted over in the same boring coat of Gritty And Serious™ paint. And the cast, HOO BOY I love everyone in this cast. They're all casted phenomenally, and it's really neat seeing their different playstyles come into play.
but for the LOVE of GOD can someone put a therapist in this party because BOY they are in dire need of one right about now
I wonder... Did Dan foresee the pre-rendered cut scenes coming, and changed to the Buster Sword so it would be a better viewing experience?
He's the kind of lovable doof who would do that
While I do like Ghost(?) Aerith appearing afterwards, I do prefer the sequence of events from the original more. The 8-phase boss sequence really detracts from tragedy of the situation.
Thank you for playing this. I often get to experience games through your channel, so this was a treat.
I totally agree with your assessment on the story and additions.
Thank you, Carrie for the good editing! And the time stamps!
I really appreciated that over the credits talk. Dan is always measured, clear, and fair in a way that is increasingly rare online. Loved the playthrough, as ever. Thank you for the thorough and joyful time, Dan!
Wow, finale time.
I have been following you on NF+ for years, and on EC before that, but I don't concider myself a Let's Play person so never checked this channel out. But when Rebirth came out I wanted more as I couldn't play as much as I wanted, so started to watch this. I've now made my way through several of your playthroughs of various games (with many more to come) and I'm a huge fan of your commentary, especially when you geek out about animation, and as I've pledged to not add any more monthly Patreons for a while, I went ahead and pledged a year all at once. Thank you for this. Looking forward to whatever comes next.
*glances at the length of the video and does a double take* Oh boy, we're in for a ride!
Spoilers for episode below, also touches on OG spoilers.
Okay so, there are two competing theories here for me in this finale to what I think is going on and what may happen in part 3. The first and most popular is that Aerith is actually dead and that Cloud is in denial. I can see that bc of the way his LB is not full the way everyone else’s is. However, I also suspect we may have a confluence of timelines here, just as Sephiroth notes at 20:09 (and, as I believe, indicated by the rainbow light, which also pops up in other instances of multiple worlds colliding, much like last episode) where Cloud sees a world where Aerith lives while everyone else sees her death. This ties into a longer theory a person I follow on Twitter posits by Turquoise Hammer, so I recommend checking them out for more details. Regardless, this would be sorted out in That Scene in part 3. Which I also think might involve an Aerith from another timeline to help too this time around, but this is mere speculation.
As for how a lot of this will resolve, I have a friend who thinks that Limit Breaks will be the key. Limit Breaks have seen a lot of highlights as of late in the FF series. From XVI’s first usage being Clive accepting being Ifrit’s Dominant to some very spoilery details in FFXIV Endwalker (if you know you know). So hitting more of this here is not out of the realm of possibility. Seeing the Clear Materia, my friend Kizu posits that it will be filled with Limit Break energy for however the final victory will go.
As for a final fate for Aerith, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility for her to get a second chance somehow. For instance, she could get an in universe revival, especially given how polls conducted in Japan show consistently that Aerith living is the most requested change. But I think what’s more likely is a different timeline’s Aerith will assist this one’s, just as I think this is how Aerith fought with Cloud in that last fight. Nothing to do until then but wait and speculate, however.
‘Very absurd what all is happening here.’ You ain’t seen nothing yet! 🤣
dan, i totally agree with your takes about the game, they were very similar to my own when i finished it. i gotta say, rewatching the game now with your playthru gave me new insights with what the game is trying to do. it is very confusing still, though. but time and rewatching it made me understand it a bit more. although i still think the game has some pacing struggles. regardless: thank you so much for the playthru! i absolutely love your comments and thoughts about FF games. it's been a blast. I'm going to miss it!
Very sad that Dan missed the first Cloud/Zack synergy skill, that one is really cool
If I remember correctly the first 2 jenova fights in the original FF7 were birth and Life (and their wasn't a jenova fight in the shinra tower). So were those inaccurate translations and these are the actual names or is the remake trilogy giving them different names.
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHH. is anything ‘solid’ in this series? But also, we should have been able to explore the old Cetra capital more… I miss that…
I've enjoyed really much of these new FFVII games, both Remake and Rebirth. Though I'm still waiting Rebirth's PC release. Dan's commentary, humour and occasinal goofs make PlayFrame my favourite Let's Play channel.
Big thank you Dan and Carrie for this huge playthrough!
PS. Wouldn't it be awesome if we would get FFVII Lore Retrospective from Dan explaining and comparing FFVII Lore (original vs. new).
I'd watch the heck out of that.
I understand where Dan (and many people who have talked about the ending are coming from). It is confusing from a plot and narrative level, and if that is your initial reaction I can’t argue against that. After I finished Remake I felt the same way. But I reflected on my relation with a lot of “confusing” works of art, and specifically that of David Lynch is probably the best example of what I mean. A film like Mulholland Drive is a miserable experience if you watch it to understand the plot, if you feel your way through it the film can be a transcendent experience. I took a deep breath going into this final fight and it I loved it. It was both unsettling and immensely beautiful in a way I have never experienced, but like good art reflects how it feels to look down a familiar yet uncanny path in life (no promises await at journeys end). those emotions I experienced will live forever as I think about and revisit this ending [whereas a plot twist can only be experienced once (not to say they are not worthwhile)]. I think the more time people spend with this game and ending they will come to see this explicitly or not - I think that’s why many people (including myself) have come around on remake. - I don’t think this point is articulated the best, but there are plenty of people who talk about this in relation to Lynch if this connected to anyone (I like Maggie Mae Fish’s Twin Peaks video) 😊
1:32:35 this part confused me at first, but now I think it’s just Sephiroth using the Jenova powers to confuse Rufus specifically by masquerading as Glenn. Which tells me that they were somehow close, but we never saw that in the currently released First Soldier story in EC, nor does it look like we will anytime soon given the next chapter for that will be around Sephiroth and Angeal. Best guess is they got close because of Rufus’ shenanigans in Before Crisis and his founding of rebel forces to take out his father, but still just speculation. Anyway, my monster length comment is coming soon. :3c
Well. Advent Children still has the best version of One Winged Angel. But that aside, very interesting changes to the original story structure to get us where we are. Though it makes me wonder how the next game is going to go. How much they'll add and alter. Though I'm curious if they'll have made it available to PC by then. (the sales were not all that)
Rebirth and original comparison by Playframe episode numbers:
Start to 42:39, 1:25:43 to 1:30:05, and 1:37:42 to 1:38:53 - episode 23
Whoo boy what an eventful finale. And yeah, Dan I think nails it when talking about the concerns around this game's ending. You can certainly have an ending with ambiguity, that's up for discussion and debate. It probably shouldn't be at the end of the second part of three though.
Am I mistaken but does this game seem to be toying with dramatic irony a bit too much?
I think part of what drives the counterproductive storytelling impulses that Dan talks about in his final rambles is something he references but doesn't say explicitly. He mentions that game storytellers want to give fans a mystery to puzzle over and keep them engaged and excited until the next game comes out; what he doesn't add is, _because there might always be a next game._ Games in the AAA space are not allowed to come to a natural conclusion based on narrative momentum because, if studios had it their way, no successful AAA franchise would _ever_ end. So the devs are left to try to sustain interest in any way they can. This game (presumably) is intended to have a definite conclusion, but maybe they fall into those bad habits regardless.
Overall, though, I've enjoyed this experience immensely. Thanks as always to Dan and Carrie for a great playthrough!
dan spending all those phoenix downs on cait lmao
Spoilers - Conversating about the end of the game
At some point, I started wondering if all the convergence of timelines and splitting and the crap (don't have a better way to define it, sorry) ended up making it so Aerith actually survived (not get to the lifestream, but actual being alive, just like Zac), but in a broken timeline where she can only communicate with Cloud. But, tbh, this kind of ending is so open to interpretation can be considered - dead, alive, in Cloud's head...
But definitely, they did spend their sweet time without actually explaining that the Crossroad of Fate of the ending of Remake was actually a thing and that multiple dimensions existed in parallel on the planet (a la Everything Everywhere All At Once). I kinda understand not explaining it at that point (question mark? At least it would seem plausible as the cast wouldn't know), but they could've started actually exploring it more clearly before Sephiroth's explainer 20 minutes into this episode - 80 minutes before the end. Though, I do have to wonder hard if all the Crossroads of Fate part is closed and if the story is to be following more clearly (as in, the timeline to be is closed and cannot be changed even if the team would not wish the outcome), or whether Sephiroth is trying to set the Fate of him winning become the only path forward, but the ramificated design of the planet is still intact.
PS.: 129 hours. GEEZ (though I clocked 200 in Xenoblade Chronicles 3 lmao)
No I fully understand, Dan. I don't think you're just angry that they changed things. Personally I'm really enjoying a little of the mistery and where they are taking the story, but I also admit I thought I knew where they were taking the story till now and I'm not so sure anymore. I'd expect we'd have understood some important things by now, but I don't, at least not completly. I really think the next game will be what makes or breaks the story. If the ending works, I expect we will be very impressed, but if it doesn't or if we still can't understand it after we finish the game I think we will all be very disappointed...
Even after playing it and watching this and reading “explinations”.. boy I’m still confused.
But god that Jenova music slaps
The game was so glorious until they started doing the multiverse bull that is overplayed and dumb anymore. Took a 12/10 game and brought it down to an 8/10. So frustrating. You can almost see the discussions, "Do we kill Aerith?" "No, that's a key part of the original!" "Yes, we have to change it up to have a surprise!" "Why not both?"
Changes and reinterpretation can be fine. They faltered heavily here for no reason though. Changes just to change things like removing Reno till the end of the game. I really missed Reno's presence and the back-and-forth he could have had between Rude and Elena. Instead we got Elena who just is not a pleasant character to watch. Then the entirety of the Zack stuff. What the hell was that? It would have been more impactful to just have Zack show up at the end all of a sudden rather than what we got. I feel like that was intended but then a contract dispute said Zack's actor needed more lines.
In the middle of the jenova battle (so like 1/4 through runtime) and I had the thought:
Wait, so if there are multiple worlds, which splinter at major decisions, and assuming that the white whispers don't like sephiroph's intentions around the confluence, does that mean (in each world) the whispers' job is basically to ensure the boundaries between worlds are upheld ("fate" and each world has its own, making them distinct from each other) and minimizing the risk/possibility of uniting? (Unsure what/how much it matters moving forward, but it's a pretty cool premise.)
... maybe it's something addressed later in this or Dan poses a similar thought.
I just didn't want to lose this realization, if it wasn't brought up and I got distracted by [gestures wildly]
Edit during the end ramble:
At first, I was like "what do you mean? Basically all they did was expand the scope (from "end of world" to "end of worldS). Makes total sense!" And him not being clear on what they wanted us to feel at the end "confusion! Unease! Worry! It was in the music, the acting, the juxtapositions! They seemed pretty clear on that."
But then I thought more about my feelings in the moment and I was very confused and disoriented as events were playing out. And I'm still unclear on the motivations of several parties. Which, while mystery is great, it's not an ideal state for part 2 of 3 in a story. I feel like we should "get" more of it than we do. And I do smell the scent of "subverting audience expectations" off of it, which can be good in measured doses. Confusion and unease are valid feelings to evoke in an audience, but you better know how to balance/flavor it in a way that an audience can still want to follow through to the end.
I'm still very interested in the conclusion of this, mostly to see the grand thesis statement of all of this. Because it very much is a meta commentary. And I don't doubt it'll be beautiful. But hopefully they'll tie this off thoroughly.
(Anyway on to finish the video)
I really appreciate what they've been trying to do on a high level with this trilogy. So many 21st century adaptations take the easy road. Like the Harry Potter movies being too afraid to really try to do something "risky," ending up middling at best. Or Star Wars 7/8/9 fearfully retreating from their own attempts to try anything different, leaving us with soulless nostalgia pitches. This FF7 trilogy proves that not everyone is too scared to take risks. There's a potential for a strong reward here, but also the potential for significant failure, depending on how the 3rd game ends up.
SPOILERS
I think they realized that it wasn't possible to make the Aerith death scene as impactful as it was in the original. Even if they had done a beat-for-beat, scene-for-scene reproduction of it, it would have failed to deliver that gut punch that the original did (for the portion of the audience familiar with the OG FF7). So instead, they decided to put it to work, setting up things for the 3rd game. Doing it that way attenuated the scene and made it certain to have less emotional impact. I'm confident they knew this - the reality that, by removing the scene of Cloud carrying Aerith's body into the water, they'd taken out the most emotional part of the whole thing. As a partial "consolation prize," I think they gave us the Aerith date scene in the church, where she gives Cloud her white materia before accepting sacrifice at the hands of Sephiroth. That really was a great scene, IMO.
Bottom line: will this pay off? It now depends on how they resolve these new uncertainties they introduced. My hypothesis is that the payoff for all of this is intended to be the Cloud-in-the-lifestream sequence from the original, which will likely be massively expanded like everything else in the Remake trilogy.
I gotta pontificate, and I'll try to be as non-spoilery as I can. Still, please take this as a spoiler warning.
Probably parroting Dan more than I realize but and I don't know if this will make sense-
The escalation has sort of trivialized the humanity in a way the original game didn't.
I think how the multiverse was explored here sort of hollowed out the victories and losses that happened. It could be pacing, it be that it was explored a little too much with no through-line.
I like the idea that Cloud is sort of stuck between a world where he saved Aerith and watched her die.
I like that I feel like I can choose whether or not Cloud's reaction is healthy. That challenges me as a observer.
I do not like that this COULD be Cloud dealing with grief and deluding himself, AND also literally happening in the fiction of the game.
I think that's big nasty.
The worst part is I ALMOST do like it. It almost reaches across the veil to the audience, almost feels like it has a comment about what FF7 fans want, or what it's like to lose a friend even if they're right in front you.
I really (personally) dislike the use of narrative or analogies for mental health and giving making it a plot device. It turns it into a paper-thin aesthetic. It works a tiny bit for Cloud and could be used well in the future, but it really didn't for Dyne and that makes me nervous.
It doesn't erase how damn good the characters are though, and how many nice moments there were. It still reinforces the humanity.
I don't mind the Aerith/Sephiroth 4D chess.
tldr;
I think it could've been better ending with a healthy amount of that cut out. Schrodinger's Cloud works...I hope.
I'm impressed that Dan figured out that you had to hit the wings with their elemental weaknesses. That was not clear to me, and I had to eventually look up a guide to even realize that was the intention. Which in a way reflects how I feel about this ending in general. I'm generally on board now that I've had some time to sit and digest it a little. HOWEVER, I do wish that that the story was a little more clear about what was happening. I felt exactly the same about the scene at the end of the temple of the ancients and what went down with the black materia.
I am perfectly fine with leaving the possibilities open for what happens down the line in future games, but in the actual moment-to-moment scenes, I really, REALLY wish the game was more explicit about the events that are presently occurring on screen instead of leaving it open to interpretation. The audience is left to figure out that Cloud is the only one who can see Aerith. He doesn't act confused or question it, and nobody really draws attention to the fact until the part about the sky. And while you can eventually put it together, the sheer confusion and doubt caused in that moment by the lack of any definitive answer left a very sour taste in my mouth.
Maybe that's what the creators were going for, but in my opinion, the impression that any given scene in a game gives the player in the moment on first impression is just as important as the one that emerges only after time spent in contemplation, and it is definitely the more important of the two for the final scene in that game. I might be alone in this, and like I said, I did ultimately come around to liking the direction the game is going overall. I just really wish the game was designed in a way that made me feel that way when I was actually playing it.
Tl;dr: I seem to have felt pretty much exactly how Dan felt by the end.
slight potential spoiler
I'm betting they've reserving the actual impact of loss hitting Cloud for a particular scene from disc 2 in the next game. Anyhow, the 3rd game has to come full circle in a sensible way upon first experiencing it - for this new direction for the trilogy to be worth it
10:00 hey we can send one person to save aerith from sephiroth - hey let's send the guy who was acting literally like sephiroth and almost killed two of us already huh
I loved the original. Played it when it came out. Very much dislike these remakes and what they've done to the game as a whole.
It finally clicked for me!!
FF7R... IS HOMESTUCK!! 😂
- Doomed timelines
- Rabid fans
- Slightly too big cast of amazing characters
- Incredible music and cutscenes
- Bonkers convoluted story threads no one has real answers for
- An experience that drags a little too long in the middle
- Ending that feels equal parts satisfying and disappointing
- Fathomless missed potential fans will all feel in different ways for years to come
It explains my paradoxical love and hate of the whole beautiful mess, too. 😋
Don't forget the speculation about Aerith and Sephiroth being one person across all timelines being analogous to Ultimate Selves
I've been saying for years that if you are a fan of Homestuck you'll probably be a fan of Kingdom Hearts and vice versa
and yeah the Doomed Timelines immediately made me think of Homestuck when I played Rebirth.
In addition to all that, the ultimate villain (so far) is an entity that wants things to go things his way and will enforce a sort of “canon events” upon the organic multiverse. Caliborn literally forces the story of SBURB/SGRUB to serve as his rise and neverending monument to nonexistence, and Sephiroth wants Cloud alienated (as he was in FF7) to be manipulated so that he can gains greater multiversal power.
@@elthion22 yeaup thats me, I love convoluted plot bullshit with meta elements. it is my bread and butter
Oof. That title.
- i mean, yeah Caith is gonna get whipped a lot if you keep running into every attack LMAO
- so, are we still gonna prettend this trilogy is not a sequel?
- finally get we the Aerith vs Sephiroth fight we craved since FF7
- also, yeah is very silly that everyone blames it on Nomura, when Yoko Taro does the same just as much for the Drakengard games
- yeah i agree with that last ramble, also doesn't help Glenn's story is pretty much relegated to the mobile game
What we have of Glenn’s story is nigh immaterial to what’s in Rebirth tbh. Tho that latest mobile episode did him uhhhhhh negative favors for me anyway lol.
@@Caterfree10 yeah, but it's still only in the phone game
Finale, eh? It seems it's time.
0:53 Well, that certainly eased the minds of a few commenters.
10:28 I do like that platform's design a lot.
11:19 Familiar, but with extra residents.
14:02 I respect going in with the Buster sword.
14:41 We get to hear the prayer now!
17:17 That was different. His entrance this time was spectacular.
38:15 Cait, are these bodies Phoenix Down operated or something? Is there a coin-op model you can bring?
40:11 that actually doesn't bother me in and of itself. It's the "it's just immune now" phases that annoy me.
44:15 I cannot see anything but Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan in Zack's pose. Also, I have no clue wtf is going on anymore.
45:40 Tell that to Psy-Ops. That game was half tutorial popups and flashbacks.
50:06 Uh... okay, game.
57:38 Yes Barret, yes it is.
1:00:42 I don't know, Zack. Not even the slightest.
1:19:10 It appears to hurt exactly as much as Max HP - 1.
1:21:29 The longer this fight goes on, the more the arena feels very FF16. Also, he's doing his own version of Hades's move from KH, which amuses me greatly.
1:42:33 Extra option: Aerith is dead, but occupying a similar space in Cloud's head as Sephiroth. He can see and interact with her, but nobody else can.
1:43:15 CID IS VOICED BY J MICHAEL TATUM!? I would literally have never guessed. Also, how the fuck does he keep popping up in the same franchises as some of my favourite female characters?
1:55:04 Personally, I feel less "confused" and more something I lack the word for right now. I'm asking what the point was. I followed the threads, pieced together an interpretation of what happened that makes sense to me, but it is immediately followed with "but... why?", which I don't think is a good place to be at credits. Yes, I know what I said earlier in this comment block.
1:56:25 I will contest that: Recently, in the Shadowbringers series, there was a big deal about a specific Mi'qote being revealed as a major player. I have no clue who he is, what his tie to Allag is, nothing. He's just *there* and I don't know *why*. Perhaps more accurately, I don't know why that Mi'qote is significant beyond what he's done in Shadowbringers. Apparently he's involved with an optional raid series? I guess? I feel like the WoL in that scene is in a completely different postcode to where I was.
@@timothystamm3200 So you're saying that they pulled a character from about 9yrs ago out of a hat and expected everyone to recognize him? Shadowbringers is about 10yrs into FF14's lifecycle, right?
I can't think of a single piece of media where a true one-off character is pulled out 9 *years* later like this. Even my experience with Dr Who and TNG doesn't have this problem.
@the6ofdiamonds Harry Potter brought back a character at the beginning of the fifth book after not mentioning them since the first book. I'm pretty sure the fifth came out in 2003, and the first was published in 1997. Also, I'm pretty sure the old man who owns the house in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe isn't mentioned again until the sixth book of the Chronicles of Narnia, the Magician's Nephew. That's 1950 to 1955. Also, the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit came out around that time, and then the Silmarillion was published in the seventies. I expect they thought that people who have been replaying raids in roulette would remember the tower and thus G'raha. That and the flashback after is probably all they thought was necessary. Though do remember they hadn't talked about Lahabrea for years before he started coming up again during Shadowbringers and the late Stormblood patches, same with the Warriors of Darkness.
P.S. the Hobbit came out in 1937, and the Fellowship of the Ring came out in 1954. So Bilbo went without mention for seventeen years.
P.P.S. The Silmarillion wasn't published until 1977. Twenty-two years after the initial publishing of the Lord of the Rings.
Also, remember their is New Game+ for every raid, so if you forgot, you could do the equivalent of a re-read relatively quickly.
@@timothystamm3200 That's secondary to what Dan had said. Dan's point was, by my understanding, specific to when you first experience the event. Not just "you can piece it together later".
@the6ofdiamonds and I agreed by pointing out that there should have been more of a reminder as the reveal occurred, at least if you had done Crystal Tower, which now everyone has to do. I realize my memory is an exception, as is some people's ability to remember faces.
P.S. I think they thought the constant replaying of old content that happens in raid and other instance roulettes would remind people of the Crystal Tower and thus G'raha Tia.
Spoilers for episode and opinion following:
First off, thanks Dan for the amazing let’s play. Always a joy to see how you interact with these games and stories.
I personally love this game and how the game brings out so much more of the characters and adds to their personalities, and is one of the few open world games I love in spite of the fact that I don’t actually like open world games.
However, I HATE the changes they made to the ending, specifically relating to the Aeriths death. Nothing the game has added related to alternate worlds or Zacks presence or any of that has been worth ruining the gut punch of Aeriths death to be replaced with spectacle and confusion.
Hopefully the third game makes these elements actually satisfying, but right now, I have to think that all the new stuff (as far as actual plot points, not the character interactions) is actually making the story worse.
Hard agree on all of that.
At this point, I sincerely think the third game is already ruined. They will either double back on this point to claim it is all in Aerith’s head, waffle like they do so now, or make things far more unexpected in a way that ruins everything. I feel that the writing is on the wall despite the fact that we are years away from the sequel of this game.
video spoilers
They really did discount Phoenix Down on the ONE TIME you absolutely can't use it.
E: SAVE HER?! WITH WHAT, ZACK?!?!
these discrepancies in gameplay and narrative are ALWAYS hilarious and infuriating haha
@@turquoisemaple To be fair the phoenix down doesn't actually resurrect someone, it brings them back from total exhaustion. When your HP reaches zero you don't die, you just get knocked down.
No Promises Await at Journey's End....
Holy crap, how ominous is that Cliffhanger?
Cloud says "I promise" to Aerith and then No Promises To Keep immediately starts playing. I never really caught that before.
Yeah Cloud goes "don't worry Aerith, I got this" and then the game immediately goes, no you don't
Schrödinger's Aerith.
My feeling overall is that this game, and this ending, are a loving tribute to the character of Aerith. This version of events doesn't undo the original tragedy (either in or out of the story, as in our world, the original game still exists, and in the story, remember, _it already happened)._ But it gives Aerith something of a say in it. It gives her a voice. It lets her say "goodbye." It's not the same, but it wasn't meant to be. They were never going to be able to recreate that moment, because part of the power of that original moment was that it was so shocking. You can't really shock people with the same moment using the same character, especially when that moment has become one of the most famous spoilers in the medium, the "Luke, I am your father" of video games. So they didn't try. Instead, they did exactly what they've been doing this whole time; create something new that exists in conversation with the old. I've elaborated on it elsewhere, but to sum it up, I think Aerith's arc in this game is essentially about accepting her own death and choosing not to change it, because she knows the timeline where she dies is the one where all her friends live. So much focus is given near the end of the game to how much Aerith just absolutely adores this ragtag group of misfits, and how the most important thing in the world to her is that THEY are safe. And it's not like she never falters; there are a couple of moments in the game where we see that she's genuinely really upset add all of the things she never got to {and will never get to) experience. She's still human. But in the end , she chooses selflessness, putting her in both thematic and literal opposition to Sephiroth. And maybe time-traveling Aerith moving through the five stages of grief is a little much for you, I get that. But we've been in time travel territory since Remake; at some point, you've either gotta accept that as part of the ride, or get off the train.
And me? I'm here until the end of the line.
"at some point, you've either gotta accept that as part of the ride, or get off the train" -- Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who feels differently should not play part 3? "maybe time-traveling Aerith moving through the five stages of grief is a little much for you, I get that" I haven't seen this complaint out there at all. The arrogance, the condescension. You need to touch some grass my dude.
@@DCHutch8 no, I'm saying the opposite. I literally do get it. I hated the ending of the first game. I was so fucking mad. But I dunno, man, I realized at some point that it was just kinda pointless. I had two choices; I could either stay mad about it going forward and be immediately annoyed and unhappy every time it came up in the next game, which it inevitably would, or I could chill and see where they were going with it. And ultimately, I decided that I liked enough of what they were doing with all the other stuff enough to give them some leeway for the parts that clearly weren't done yet. You don't have to do that, you don't have to do anything. I just used a silly train metaphor as a nod to Barret from the OG.
SPOILERS BELOW:
...
...
I did a lot of research when I first beat the game, trying to make sense of what happened. There's a lot to dissect, but I want to focus on one detail: the burst of rainbow light around 17:00. The light has previously been used when a branch in fate occurs. We saw it when Zack was deciding which tunnel to go down. This suggests there are two different outcomes, resulting in two different timelines. In one, Cloud saves Aerith. In the other, he fails. Ultimately, we land in the timeline where he fails, but until Sephiroth's desired reunion occurs, there's still another world in which Aerith survives. Some believe this is the Aerith who helps us fight Sephiroth in the final battle, as we see more rainbow light when she appears. This has given some hope to people that she might return in full, perhaps as a result of Sephiroth's reunion.
As for why Cloud can still see and converse with Aerith, I think Dan is correct: Cloud is somehow able to see both worlds. I've also seen theories suggesting that Cloud's degradation has progressed even further, such that he's seeing additional things that aren't real, but I like that theory less, so I choose to discard it. After all, Red also seems able to sense her briefly, suggesting she really is there in some form, though only Cloud can fully interact with her.
Overall, my feelings about the game largely echo Dan's. I enjoyed 95% of the journey, but the muddiness of the ending really falls flat for me. I still hope that the third game will wrap things up cleanly, but I'm trying to temper my expectations.
Anyway, thanks to Dan for playing through this one, and thanks to Carrie for the wonderful editing! I look forward to the next series (cough-Elden-Ring-DLC-cough).
I wouldn't put money on things wrapping up cleanly. If you watch the playthrough of FF& original Dan makes a big deal about how the ending is pretty ambiguous.
Ooh. Someone whose opinion I want to hear about that ending scene. I... believe the "goodbye" at the end comes from a yellow flower in the screen's bottom left.
@@tinwhiskerSC Yeah, but that ambiguous ending gives emotional closure, which this game and Remake's endings don't.
Very well explained. I love what they're doing with all this stuff honestly but I just wish it was more clear. Like Dan said we shouldn't be leaving with confusion as our main emotion, and if the game told us this stuff as well and clearly as you did we wouldn't mind
@@Doomsword0 Glad to hear I could help. I shared in everyone else's confusion, enough that I went digging for answers. I had hoped my little summary would alleviate at least some of that confusion for others.
i was wondering how you'd divide the last events in two episodes HAHA it seems you did not
1:36:39 - There's a tree in the refraction that isn't there outside of it, right there, center-frame. The 'Clear Materia' *is not empty.*
that's a neat catch! and i think supports the theory that cloud can now see multiple worlds
Materia's power comes from absorbing the memories, skills, and experiences of its bearers. Consider what it would mean if the Clear Materia is a blank slate--it's a vacuum waiting to be filled, and Aerith wears it throughout all these events.
The Clear Materia would be full of _Aerith_ (whatever she has become). Might that be the source of Cloud's ability to see her, as well as echoes of the other worlds?
1:35:11 Possibly an art/animation question: what is going on with that specific thing in that person's hand?
More specific spoilery details:
Said thing appears to be the empty materia Aerith handed Cloud. Makes sense, he did put it in hos pocket.
It looks clear or reflective from one angle, then it appears an opaque black from another.
Does it look different when the camera angle changes because we see Cloud's glove through the item?
Is it a different Cloud with a different materia? Is it half and half?
In these shots we’re just seeing his glove refracted (I think that’s the right term, but the physics of light is not my strong suit) through it
Thanks Dan and Carrie for the amazing playthrough! It's been a joy to watch all the way to the end (boy, this game is big).
And yeah, I have similar thoughts about the game and the ending in particular - loved how they've developed the characters and the world in incredible ways, but I can't really feel like I have an opinion on the ending until we can see whether it gets a satisfactory payoff in the last game or not
Glad you brought up FFXIV as a counter-example to this type of storytelling. It really is a master work in long-term storytelling. Sure, it leaves mysteries at the end of some points (e.g. the Ascians at the end of ARR), but those don't take away from the emotional beats. We might not know what Lahabrea is, but we know SPOILER is saved from him.
And we do end up getting satisfying answers, too. Which is something Kingdom Hearts didn't give us, and is something I fear the Remake project might not. Let's hope it ends up like FFXIV and this all makes perfect sense by the end.
I have no hope. At this point, bad habits are set in stone, and good habits are fleeting and in the hand of one or a few people swatted away so easily.
I think that opening will make some people very happy, heh!
Bold move to include a tutorial at the very end of the game. XD
Platforming in a final boss fight? What is this, Devil May Cry 4?
How Part 3 goes will determine if I like this ending or not. I don't think its fair to judge when the story isn't completed yet.