It’s going to be a sad day on earth when you are no longer with us. Aside from your skill and reputation, your honesty and integrity is something that is rare in today’s world. God bless you Mr. Vizard.
Actually I hope he's prepared for that with a Hole back load videos a materials he can release so we don't lose all that hard earned knowledge may you live to be no less than 125 cheers my friend
Back in 96 I got a book named How to Build Chevy High Performance Engines on a Budget. Now I have about six of your books. O have never been disappointed and have built stock appearing healthy motors with your advice. You are a legend Sir and we appreciate you.
Marvin you have done a great service to all of us putting the time in to help David document his great wisdom. Seeing him explain what he knows is so much better than a book. I love every time I get to see the wizard talk!
I like your approach with salesman . I told one of mine , " I can ruin my business all by myself , I don't need your help" . Enjoy your content . After 50 years we never stop learning .
Funny story, nearly 30 years ago I built my first big block Chevy for a friend. He got a big Ultradyne solid roller at a swap meet. I called Ultradyne to get timing specs and lash. Guy named Harold answered, helped me out. I didn't know at the time he was a legendary cam designer. He gave me the specs, and said suggested lash was .026 hot. He asked me a few questions about the engine, then told me when I wanted the engine to run it's best lash it .014 intake, and .016 exhaust, hot. When I finally did that after it was running for a while, that change knocked .3 off the e.t.! I set hydraulic preload anywhere from .050 to .080 on most hydraulic lifters, works out to a turn and a half or so. Works beautifully. People often squawk when I recommend the same. They also complain about valvetrain noise and problems I never have. Thanks for the video.
Dave- been 50+ years squeezing power from engines and tried (I thought) every lifter trick in the book, starting with those old Rhodes lifters on. You casually mentioned half a dozen points on lifter science, but I NEVER thought about adjusting lifters "backwards", so to speak! Love the way your mind works, and your technical hands on experience that gave you insight I could only dream of! With you, the more I watch- the less I really new! I'm not being obsequious when I say you ARE an inspiration to keep on building back better! (Engines).
Oh great wise one of the garage. I bask in your teaching bro. Learned so much from your books and videos. U remind me of ken miles. Wish he was still around
Im going to try that 1/4 turn off the bottom of the hydraulic roller trick instead of the top . That sounds like a pretty slick move. I learn something new every video you put out DV . Youre the Einstien of this era. Pure genius
Just remember David's point about some lifters may not pump up properly while the plunger is near the bottom, due to the internal oil inlet groove may be valved off.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 yeah I caught that but if it doesnt work out properly ill know pretty quick and just go back to what i know works but thanks for bringing that point up because it is something to think about 👍
@@79beans347 What's always worked for me in the case of sbc is 1/2 turn from zero lash. What hasn't worked was more than 1.5 turns. I settled on 1/2 turn because it's always worked, yeah that's convenient but this simply allows time for other things. ;)
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 yep thats whats always worked for me as well on sbf is 1/2" turn after zero lash and never had a problem as well as a few bow ties. Its always been the happy medium. Ive never even thought about taking it passed 1 turn much less 1.5 . Always figured problems lived outside of 1 turn so have always played it safe
Ah, yes, the Rhoads and Crane bleed-down lifters. "They are always bleeding down." "...you could have gotten more vacuum by getting a cam and stiff hydraulic lifters."
I adjusted some chevy rockers many years ago and it idled terribly, so I tightened each rocker until the valves wouldn't close and the cylinder wouldn't build pressure. Then I backed it off as you mention, about a quarter turn. Now I back them off a turn or two, aiming for the middle of the lifter travel. I found that all of the cylinders had the same compression instead of being a few pounds off from each other. Also, the engine idled like an electric motor, you could set a full cup of coffee on top an it wouldn't spill a drop.
PEOPLE have no idea how the adjustment on rockers is to be very precise,all 8 cylinders need to be the same,all the time,i used to race on the street as a kid of 19,i used to buy valve cover gaskets in the box,box of 20,this one thing i did on the engine kept me winning all of my races,i made more money street racing than i made on my job,blueprinting a stock engine is good for 35 horsepower at the flywheel,,my engine came with solid lifters from the factory,being precise is everything,i learn from this guy every time i watch his videos,im a master tech of 47 years,he's the master
David covered the 1/4 turn from the bottom. Some may have missed his comments. You must pull the lifter out and take it apart to remove all oil out first. Now my head says that the rocker will have to be cranked down and the rocker tip will be off set from center of the valve stem so a longer push rod should be used to correct the rocker in the middle of the valve stem. This could possibly give you a little more rocker ratio too.
Mr Vizard, I really enjoy your videos !!! I'm 67 years old, back in 1972 l bought a 1965 Chevelle SS with a 327-350hp /wide ratio Muncie 4 speed and 4:10 with posi-traction. The person l bought it from was a mechanic at the local Chevrolet Dealer, He the original owner and street raced a little bit. Since he worked for the dealer he got a big discount on parts. The car had several different engines over time. He just removed a L88 427 because he couldn't get big enough tires so it wouldn't smoke the tires. He sold the 427 and went back to a new 327-350hp, it had Hooker headers and a 780cfm vacuum secondary carb. He also used a set of Engle anti-pump up lifters, It would pull to 6500rpm in first, I shifted into 3rd and 4th at 6000. He told me the stock lifters would pump up at about 5500rpm. I have read articles in various magazine articles that said they didn't work and some said they worked good. What is your opinion on anti-pump up lifters ?
I always try to watch Mr . Vizard videos and I appreciate the information. As for the lifter adjustment when I got out of tech school I went to work for GM a long time ago . I set the lifters on my engines a small block Chev as a lot of guys a quarter to half down . I did not care for the rattle for a short period of time after start up . On my hot rod street driven Camaro a 68 Camaro I had a 302 that I ran solid lift roller cam . I think it was a 600 isky . I use to change the lash as you suggested and I did help the idle and the way the engine responds to low end torque . A few years ago I bought a money pit Harley. That have warmed over SS engines and that's where I learned to set the lifters very close to the bottom of the travel . I have a couple of these bikes the other has limiter in the lifter . Same thing set lifter just where it has lash cold and a bit more . One thing for sure in my option lifters are a maintenance item replace or rebuild them if possible. The reason to check lash pretty often is to catch the failed lifters hopefully.
Seems you might be onto something since there has been a plague of Camshafts being wiped out mostly on flat tap hydraulic camshafts during break in or shortly there after. Some claim bad lifters others the metallurgy of the cams being made today, others say its the person didn't follow the break in procedure correctly. I feel its the crap being made over seas (China) with little to no QC of products going to be sold by the Companies importing this products. They need to do testing before peddling garbage to John Q Public , not after the complaints start piling up.
@@jimbetts5164 yea I run as good a lifter as I can find in my money pits . Still I replace them before they fail. When they fail and the metal goes through the oil system it's a bad outcome
Thank you so much you just saved me from grief over variable duration hydralic lifters. Im putting a little lopey cam in my 318. Im getting my education on it as i go. Thanks again.
318LA-Mopar? For street? and stock stroke? That's a tuff nut to crack, she need lots of Scr to get even modest cylinder pressure, with a late-closing intake angle; And you may not be able to get an off the shelf piston. IMO, which doesn't count for much,lol, it's better to put the power in the heads and run a shorter period cam...... unless you run a pretty loose TC, then pretty much anything goes. Happy HotRodding.
Cummins says to tighten the adjuster on the N14 til you feel a light drag, or to a certain number of inch-pounds. I bought a torque screwdriver to eliminate any discrepancy on a "light drag" and haven't been in one since.
Thank u David 4 clearing up the zink info....!...cant tell u how importain that is to me....thank u thank u thank u....stay healthy....looking forward to the next video...reguards, Brian
Re hydraulic lifter preload, IIRC in the factory Mopar performance bulletins from years ago recommended for the hot street/strip setup to preload the lifter fully 1.5 turns. I did that on my 440 and the way it revved up was insane for a hydraulic valvetrain. All it had was a Mopar Performance Purple Stripe hydraulic camshaft, lifters and valve springs (which were a single spring + counter wound damper). It would go to 6700rpm no problems at all.
Back in the early eighties I was into Hot VWs, when I was building a few I was purchasing a product called Microlon assembly lube and oil. It was used in aircraft and aerospace industry.
On the subject of fast bleed down lifters, I've pondered the idea of of using a solenoid to control the oil pressure to some modified lifters that allows them to drain down when open and forces them to pump up when closed. ie, redneck Vtec. The specific application is an older dohc cam on bucket design that predates most variable cam technology.
My friend did something with valve timing lash rocker arms a certain angle of the rocker arm produced more lift. A way around the rule book more lift with the same cam that you're allowed to use.
As a teenager my 400 Pontiac wouldn't rev up very high without cutting out, hydraulic cam. Converted it to adjustable, (BB Chevy studs screwed right in) loosened till it rattled, tighten an 1/8th turn. Problem solved. I've always thought you want the lifter on the top of it's travel, based on that experience. Interesting video!
@@apachebill Read about it in a Pontiac magazine. A dealership in the early 60s set up super stock Pontiacs that way. Fixed the problem with that 400 anyway.
You might think I'm crazy but when I rebuilt my Pontiac 400 I used Royal Purple full synthetic 10W 30 and it wore in perfect. That's been 10 years ago and still a healthy engine. If I build another one I will do the same thing and God forbid if the cam fails I know its not the oil. I plan on building a hotter version 400 with ported heads and a little bigger cam nothing drastic.
Yes!! I had a 65 CJ5 with a F134 engine. I could feel a slight increase in opening the lash to the wide side of the clearance range. It was rated at 72hp so small changes could be felt. Opening up the spark plug gap was a small change as well.
On "solids" ,I always set my valves to the loose side of the spec. Pops said years ago it's probably a good idea of you run em hard , and 2 thou more lift by running em tight is going to do nothing for you as far as power, but it's nice for the valves to do their heat transfer trick by being closed for that much longer.
@@MrTheHillfolk Agree! It's better to be on the loose side as opposed to tight, in the case of solid lifters. Especially if your goal includes the valve actually dwelling on the seat.
I Was Not Exspecting To Come Across An Oil Additive / Oil That's Recommend By David. Really Glad I Came Across This Video. I Have Been Using VR1 Full Synthetic 20W50 With Zinc Already Mixed In It Solely Because AutoZone Has Been Carrying It. I Guess I'm The Only One Using It In My Area Because After About A Year Of Daily Driving With Oil Changes Every 2 Months (3000 Miles) They No Longer Have It On Shelf's. So Now I'm Gonna Need To Order Oil. Since I Have To Order Oil The Oil Extreme Seems Like A Viable Replacement. It's Also Not That Much More Than The VR1 I Was Using.
Hi David, I have a question concerning setting lash on a solid flat tappet cam in my big block chevy with roller tip rockers. When inserting the feeler gauge between the roller and the valve tip is there a difference in accuracy if I move the feeler gauge in line with the roller tip or If I move it parallel to the tip as I adjust? Thanks for your help, I love watching your videos. Max
FIAT Cinquecento 'Trofeo' 4 cil. 900 cc engine: - Mechanical lifters - 289 degree camshaft - double valve springs (Autobiachi A112 Abarth 70hp) - standard diameter valves and rings - skimmed off 0.5 mm from the block - head gasket min. 1 mm - minimum height of head = 69.5 (but seems unlikely to me. Must be higher to continue using after skimming: 70.15?) - oil cooler - Weber Marelli 34 mm SPi injection house (30 mm standard - compression ratio: 10.5:1 (or near by) - Magnetti Marelli ECU IAW 6F.1Z 'FIAT 500 SPORT' - 4-2-1 spaghetti exhaust manifold - intake manifold inter grated in the head casting (which actually s*cks > the valves are not in a 90 degree position but rather the opposite.) - Champion spark plugs with two grounds > not available so changed to similar ones from Bosch) - Sport cat. - Mid exhaust pipe larger diameter.
David you said hydraulic lifters wouldn't pump up if you had a good spring. I had the 448lbs .over-the-nose AFR spring on my SBC. When I adjusted the lash as Compcams (limited travel hydraulic roller recommended 1/4-1/2 turn). It backfired every time I let off on acceleration. I called Compcams and they told me to try for 0-1/8 turn and it stopped backfiring. The lifter was pumping up and hanging the valve open. The reason they are noisy is to get them to work they actually have a small amount of lash when hot. Their cam was great but their lifters aren't to be trusted. What happens to a hydraulic lifter when it has 0.001-0.002 lash when hot. I suspect it beats the axle.
LOL, I've just read this post after I had posted up my thoughts on Rover/Buick engines, I think that your valves were hanging open, this situation could get very dodgy around the time that the piston and exhaust valve get close near the end of the exhaust stroke.
Why would they have lash when hot? If anything, the pre-load would become greater when hot due to the cam lobe getting larger and the pushrod, lifter, and valve stem getting longer due to thermal expansion (that's why solid lifter lash gets tighter on a hot engine vs. a cold one) A hydraulic lifter should never have any lash if it's functioning correctly, unless you float the valves, which will wreak a cam and collapse lifters anyway, because then the lobe while on its way up, impacts the bottom of the lifter while on its way down, rapidly ruining both of them and bending pushrods. Additionally, hydraulic lifters shouldn't be noisy, ever (unless they have collapsed) at least much less so than solid lifters. You'd be surprised how many people mistake their normal fuel injector clicking for imaginary lifter noise lol.
You were probably experiencing bleed-down and bottoming out the limited travel lifters, not only ruining them straight away but also causing the valves to close too rapidly and bounce off their seats. 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn for preload seems excessive for a limited travel lifter. As David mentioned, some lifters don't fill with oil properly when preloaded down near the bottom of their travel. It has been my experience that hydraulic lifters do not pump up beyond their initial preload, with the exception of floating valves caused by not enough spring pressure and/or too high of RPMs for the application. Oil pressure is always substantially less than valve spring pressure, add in the rocker ratio and there is no way that oil pressure can overcome the valve spring pressure and pump up a lifter beyond its initial preload, unless you float the valves which is always detrimental to an engine, every time, without exception.
Mr. Vizard ( sorry for the formality), but feel compelled to call you " Sir David Vizard" since you have been the inspiration of multiple generations of engine builders ( and still do to this vary day ) across the globe. It's like I'm texting Royalty. So ..My question - I have a mopar 340 engine that is #s matching for my 70 challenger , it was rebuilt by a shop in Illinois 5k miles before I bought the car. 500 miles later cam goes flat.To be fair this was some 10 years later, Upon inspection I find One lifter bore very worn, most likely the begining of the problems. If the block was salvageable how would you proceed with repairing that lifter bore etc. Would you press in only one bushing and bore it to the original diameter or do all of them at one time etc. My first thought was to find oversize size lifters and hone to that diameter with tolerances , like the factory did back in the day. I might be emailing rhe wrong people out here in CA. but have had zero luck getting an answer as to options and if someone could do the work and/or capable of manufacturing a set for me if a set are not available NOS or aftermarket. The only consistent answer I have received is "unless its a 426 Hemi or 6 pak ( 440 ) your better off getting a new block. i would like to hear your thoughts and any advise you might be willing to share or even a referral to someone competent you might know. If you were willing to do the work to build that engine that would be even better. I get that's most likely not going to happen but thought I would throw that out there to see if you might not be opposed to the idea. Anyway love the series and am a subscriber to your channel. Please keep the videos coming they are wonderful. HAPPY NEW YEAR from Northern California. Take care be safe- James
What about running solid lifters on a hydraulic cam It’s been a practice with Jersey speed skiff racers I did it a few times for customers and it worked fine I set the lash at .005 and .007 on the ex . What are your thoughts ? Thank you for your excellent videos ,
Something that frustrates me to no end when choosing a hydraulic lifter is that most manufacturers don't offer up front is what the plunger travel range is. I need that to determine appropriate pushrod length. Maths for stud mounted rockers get us the plunger to pushrod movement for preload: 7/16-20 yields .050" per full turn of the lock and 3/8-24 yields .041" per full turn. I like to set the pushrod 40-50% into the lifter's plunger travel range, and lengthen the pushrod accordingly. I then add that measurement, as closely as possible, to the verified pushrod length, having already used a test spring that doesn't move the plunger. No hydraulic lifter should be sold without the plunger travel spec clearly advertised, IMHO. Take the popular and oft misunderstood Chevrolet 'LS7' lifter. It's known that its travel range is about .110". On a 7/16-20 stud it takes 3/4 - 1 full turn to get to between .0375" - .050". 40% in the plunger travel would be .044" and 50% would be .055". So even 3/4 turn would not do it. One full turn yields .050", which is 45-46% into the lifter's plunger travel. 1 1/4 turns is a little on the tighter end, being 62-63% into the plunger's travel. Lots of consumers of the 'LS7' lifters preload them too loosely (1/4 - 1/2 turn) and complain of lots of noise and even some failures, as there is just enough bleed down to skate the roller on the cam lobe at too light of a preload.
I've been using LS7 factory style lifters for a while now. Always given 1/4-1/2 turn preload after zero lash. Wondering if 1 full turn from zero would be beneficial to a little more power.
Thanks Dave...Can you do a chat about "Rev Kits" Please.? After all they are a big part in valve train control for high reving engines....Cheers mate...Zig from downunder.
One thing to consider regarding lash is the ACTUAL rocker ratio. A stamped steel chevrolet SB rocker is actually 1.37 ratio VS a true 1.5 ~ BB rockers are 1.7 actual 1.57. If adjusted for a true 1.5 the valves will close at greater than ramp velocity. DAVE CROWER designed a solid roller cam for my 69 Z28 which had a 12:1 compression ratio the cam dropped the valves to just above the seats and then slowly let them down so the factory heads were not hammered with the high spring pressures.
Dear Mr. Vizard, I have seen a few of your videos where you speak about the importance of running a tighter lobe separation angle than the 112 most cam manufacturers are pushing on everyone. I'm not sure how much experience you have with LS engines however that is what I am building for my 2004 GTO 6spd manual. It came with a 346ci LS1, that engine siezed, I am planning to build a 408ci iron block stroker for it, I am planning to use 243 cylinder heads, possibly ported, because the cathedral port heads produce more TQ under the curve, I would like to use a $335 summit 240/252 @ 0.050" .569/.569 106 lsa cam in it, probably with 1.8 ratio rockers that would bring the effective duration and lift at the valve up to 244/256 .604/.604 106 does that sound like a better idea than the common cheap, $120, large cam which is the 238/242 .595/.595 112 or 242/246 .630/.630 112 with 1.8 rockers? I would probably use a FAST 102 or Holley Hi-Ram intake manifold and long tube headers. It's a heavier car and has a relatively tall 3.46 axle ratio, so TQ is going to make a big difference and because it's a manual aggressive cam timing shouldn't be a much of a negative. Does it sound like I am on the right track?
The 1.8 rocker isn’t going to change the duration, just give you more lift. And from my understanding and what I’ve seen, the LS usually do better with wider LSA. Your comment is from 3months ago so I’m sure you’ve already pulled the trigger lol I’d be interested to hear how your car is doing with 106LSA
Pretty much every running-in procedure from any Cam Manufacturer I can find says - use Joe Gibbs, Penn, Lunati running in oil (I like the straight 30 weight) WITHOUT any Zinc supplement for the initial runin phase and the first 500 miles. I actually saw a test where they added a bottle of ZDDP supplement to an oil and it didn't give any appreciable increase in zinc to the oil, only the find all the actual ZDDP was still lining the bottom and sides of the Additive bottle!
And again my thinking was backwards… I only adj down 10thou and replace the hairpin clip with a snap ring. My thinking is, at high rpm the lifter can only pump up 10 thou and then be a solid lifter with a heavy snap ring that won’t pop out. I too assumed if I cranked it down the factory amount )302 is 17-24lbs of torque which puts the pushrod .050 in the lifter) Now I’ll have to check sweep of the valve tip when it’s compressed all the way…. Thanks for the info David!!!
When I was a kid I tried adjusting my Chevy hydraulic flat tappet lifters when I was like 20 or so. Changed all the valve springs it was a mess. Ticked. Adjusted when running Was Mehh. Then. I had a Rocker arm stud pull many years later. Just a few months ago I Went through all the valves. Put all new push rods too because one was bent. I adjusted all of them by hand spinning the engine over and over. I also primed the oil pump some so the lifters were pumped up some for the final test. Came out well. Yea I noticed that a empty lifter is a PITA to adjust. Some of mine were sponge... Because I removed them to check the condition and pushed them with a screw driver haha. Shot the oil out.. Anyway runs nice. Better than it ever did. Hot lash running is crap for a chevy.
@GhettoWagon By hammering them to death on the cam lobe, which is a surefire way to collapse them and bend the pushrods, usually breaking the spring inside. Nobody, I mean literally nobody, installs hydraulic lifters without soaking them in oil first (usually overnight) to make sure all the air is out. Every service manual describes the procedure. Installed like that will ensure that there is still air trapped inside at the top of the lifter cavity, causing a spongy lifter because air can compress whereas a liquid cannot. A lifter, even a hydraulic one, is supposed to be hard as a rock, the internal spring is very light and is only in there for installation purposes so it can be bled before installation and then preloaded. They most certainly are not designed to still open the valves without being full of oil.
@@johnny0454 Soaking lifters in oil over night doesn't pump them up or bleed them, It only coats them in oil. For lifters to be "pumped" up, they have to have oil pumped into them, either from oil pressure in the engine or with some form of pump before installation. Lifters do not fill up by simply soaking them in oil, it's just not how they are designed, they are filled by oil pressure. But no one has to take my word for it, disassemble a lifter and make sure it is completely empty of oil, reassemble it and toss it in some oil overnight. The next day take it out, wipe it down and take a look inside, notice how much oil is in there..... None.
@tracyrobinson5704 You're incorrect, if soaked correctly (with the hole facing up) the air will seep out overnight, you can watch the bubbles come out. The internal spring holds them all the way open, no pumping or pressure required. In almost half a century of building engines, I don't know of anyone who does not do this.
I've read some studies on titanium dioxide as an anti-wear additive. One study showed that it greatly reduces wear but another study claimed mixing zddp and titanium dioxide worsened wear unless they sortof tacked some boron onto the zddp.
Hi David. I've seen you mention a Ford hydraulic roller lifter modification that costs about $0.20 that gives great benefit. Are you going to let us in on the trick? Or are you saving it for your next book? Love your videos. Regards Greg
Also, adjusting for minimum lifter plunger height (aka: minimum oil volume) leaves less room for air trapped in the lifter (which makes for spongy lifters).
Really interesting watch. I'm interested to know what effect creating a vortex within the intake would have by utilizing louvres on the velocity stacks and utilizing oval throttle butterflies that seal at 45° to the port rather than the traditional 90° round butterflies
Technical question for the Ford modular 4.6 engines. With no easy adjustment to their hydraulic lash adjusters, could you force them towards the bottom of their travel with a precise spacer underneath, so there's less maximum lash to take up?
If I turn my oil pump with an electric drill I see a fair amount oil coming out between the top of the solid lifters and the bottom of the pushrods because of the .020" lash. On a Pontiac V8 with its open area above the camshaft wouldn't that oil fall on to the cam lobe for good lubrication without needing the special hole in the bottom of the lifters or grooves in the lifter bores?
When a engine sits for a while ie over night, the cam and lifters are dry when the engine is started There's no lubrication until the rods throw oil onto the cam. It would be grate if you could squirt oil onto the cam before start up.
The lifter bore groover was interesting. Back in the day we would just grind a small groove on the lower half of the lifter to get a little extra oil to the lobes. Never had an issue with it but never had a pro stock engine either.
If anything I like to use Lucas, to tacky up the oil a bit, especially with a lot of gears and other metal to metal contact, engines with gear drives, or chains, and if lifters are getting noisy,
Maybe I just got a Wednesday set of linkbar lifters but my Howard’s Street hydraulic lifters have performed remarkably well with 3/4 turn of lash in my gen 1 SBC. I ran them that tight because Howard’s recommends running them .030-.035 lash and with my studs that’s what I mathed out my preload to be. Now my gen 2 LT1 ran like hammered turds on that much preload. It didn’t too much care for 1/4 either but runs just fine on 3/8’s turn preload. Go figure. She’s always
First time ever I built a engine. The cam was a used cam but in good condition. I needed to put a new set of flat tappet lifters in . Broke the engine in it ran well. Let it cool down for a hour or so came back to run engine again and noticed it started skipping. Needless to say the lifters were shot. Thought I adjusted them wrong so I went back old school and adjusted lifter while engine was running and ever time I went to put the half turn preload tje engine would stall. Took out a lifters and placed it in a vise and seen the lifer would not plunge down any at all. They acted like a solid lifer. Anyone ever have this issue. Needless to say now I have to tear engine back down to clean all the metal from the bearings and block.
I have always wondered if you can use solid lifters in a hydraulic cam or hydraulic lifters in a solid cam. I use a Rhoads lifter. I like it cause it did tame the cam idle and I did not want to change the cam. it did rev out another 500 rpm easily and being turbo had all the power needed. Start up noise was terrible untill I ran extra oil lines to each end of the main oil gallery from the pump so there were effectively 3 oil feeds into the straight 6 main oil gallery and it totally solved the clack on startup problem and I would think a more even oil pressure in the main gallery may help under high revs
I had a 350 Chevy. Adjusting the stock lifters with a stock cam had a problem it wouldn't idle as smooth as I thought it would with everything else correct. I ended up using a vaccum Guage with it running. It ran smooth and would start with a flick of the key. But did I loose any power?
I know how to fix this issue, it's one simple part swap, just go to solid flats or rollers!! Haha problem solved!! ✌️and some nice thick aluminum valve covers, if you do not like they symphony going on under the hood!! I was running a old duntov30/30 it sounded like a room full of clocks!!!
Hearing this dude is like nails on glass talking about an arrogant mother, but if you've been the smartest dude in the room for as long as he has I guess you get some degree of license for that attitude so as long as he's willing to talk I'm going to grit my teeth and intently listen...thank you sir for your willingness to share
My cousin told me that roller lifters were heavier than flat tappets so guys were experimenting with springs in the lifter valley on top of the lifter. They would put more pressure on the roller to avoid floating the valves at high RPM but not overwhelm the hydraulic lifter through the pushrod via the valve spring and rocker. Has anyone ever seen or used this setup?
Yes. The old man's garage mentioned it in one episode but I have never seen it used on any car I have seen and like they say the weight over the cam is not the important side it's the valve side.
It used to be called a 'rev kit'. Was common on high rpm motors in the 80's. Supposedly you could run a little less valve spring, and get less push rod deflection as a secondary benefit. But I suspect most users simply wanted max revs
Great video as always! I have heard some 60's Mopars used mushroom lifters and always wanted to find out how much they would help speed up low and mid lift. any thoughts?
Mushroom lifters required the block to be clearanced UNDER the lifter bore. Before installing the camshaft you roll the engine upside down and put the Mushroom lifters in from the bottom as the mushroom part is wider than the lifter bore. Then you put the camshaft in. All old Mopars have a 0.904" lifter but the Mushroom lifters were about 1 inch diameter. This allowed a MUCH taller lobe lift with a VERY fast ramp rate. A stock lifter's bottom edge would dig into the lobe where as the wider foot of the mushroom would not. Roller Cam lifts and duration with a slider lifter. Not a street cam/lifter......
Maybe it’s a liability issue,but when talking about valve lash. When you say to make it loose but not to loose,tells me nothing. Give us a scenario with a certain rocker ratio where it can damage the valve or pound the seat. This would be something from your vast experience that could save someone from finding out the hard way. Thanks and keep them coming.
I want to ask a question. With hydraulic lifters a quarter turnout, does oil psi take away from valve seat psi? Or do the lifters allow just enough psi on the push rod to hold it tight?
Hey I love listening to you and learning from you but I’d like to make a suggestion how about getting a better camera to do your videos with. The one your using has horrible quality. Just my two cents.
It’s going to be a sad day on earth when you are no longer with us. Aside from your skill and reputation, your honesty and integrity is something that is rare in today’s world. God bless you Mr. Vizard.
Not cool dude.
Just what every elderly person wants to hear. "Youre gonna die" 🙄 delete this
4m
Actually I hope he's prepared for that with a Hole back load videos a materials he can release so we don't lose all that hard earned knowledge may you live to be no less than 125 cheers my friend
There are so many older folks who have a vast amount of experience and knowledge that we need.
Back in 96 I got a book named How to Build Chevy High Performance Engines on a Budget. Now I have about six of your books. O have never been disappointed and have built stock appearing healthy motors with your advice. You are a legend Sir and we appreciate you.
Marvin you have done a great service to all of us putting the time in to help David document his great wisdom. Seeing him explain what he knows is so much better than a book. I love every time I get to see the wizard talk!
Marvin passed away in 2022. Dave's cohort now is Andy Wood.
@@jeffrykopis5468 How in hell did that guy think David ended up here building a whole new series while most of his screws are still tight 🙂
@@kenmoule825 Hey, some are new here, and don't know that some of these "new" videos are relabeled old videos.
If you really want to see the wizard in action Google wizard sleeve
I like your approach with salesman . I told one of mine , " I can ruin my business all by myself , I don't need your help" .
Enjoy your content . After 50 years we never stop learning .
Funny story, nearly 30 years ago I built my first big block Chevy for a friend. He got a big Ultradyne solid roller at a swap meet. I called Ultradyne to get timing specs and lash. Guy named Harold answered, helped me out. I didn't know at the time he was a legendary cam designer. He gave me the specs, and said suggested lash was .026 hot. He asked me a few questions about the engine, then told me when I wanted the engine to run it's best lash it .014 intake, and .016 exhaust, hot. When I finally did that after it was running for a while, that change knocked .3 off the e.t.!
I set hydraulic preload anywhere from .050 to .080 on most hydraulic lifters, works out to a turn and a half or so. Works beautifully. People often squawk when I recommend the same. They also complain about valvetrain noise and problems I never have.
Thanks for the video.
Dave- been 50+ years squeezing power from engines and tried (I thought) every lifter trick in the book, starting with those old Rhodes lifters on. You casually mentioned half a dozen points on lifter science, but I NEVER thought about adjusting lifters "backwards", so to speak! Love the way your mind works, and your technical hands on experience that gave you insight I could only dream of! With you, the more I watch- the less I really new! I'm not being obsequious when I say you ARE an inspiration to keep on building back better! (Engines).
Dude. These are the ones that prove who Mr. Vizard is the goat. I wish you were my grandpa. Cause youd get tired of seeing me in your shadow.
It's like listening to Mr. Wizard. :-) I never get tired of listening to David's sage wisdom.
Oh great wise one of the garage. I bask in your teaching bro. Learned so much from your books and videos. U remind me of ken miles. Wish he was still around
Im going to try that 1/4 turn off the bottom of the hydraulic roller trick instead of the top . That sounds like a pretty slick move. I learn something new every video you put out DV . Youre the Einstien of this era. Pure genius
Just remember David's point about some lifters may not pump up properly while the plunger is near the bottom, due to the internal oil inlet groove may be valved off.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 yeah I caught that but if it doesnt work out properly ill know pretty quick and just go back to what i know works but thanks for bringing that point up because it is something to think about 👍
@@79beans347 What's always worked for me in the case of sbc is 1/2 turn from zero lash. What hasn't worked was more than 1.5 turns.
I settled on 1/2 turn because it's always worked, yeah that's convenient but this simply allows time for other things. ;)
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 yep thats whats always worked for me as well on sbf is 1/2" turn after zero lash and never had a problem as well as a few bow ties. Its always been the happy medium. Ive never even thought about taking it passed 1 turn much less 1.5 . Always figured problems lived outside of 1 turn so have always played it safe
I am really thankful for all your videos and sharing of knowledge and experience, this is great stuff!
Ah, yes, the Rhoads and Crane bleed-down lifters. "They are always bleeding down." "...you could have gotten more vacuum by getting a cam and stiff hydraulic lifters."
You covered a whole bunch of topics in this one!
I've been listening to this, guy this guy's a genius I would like to spend a couple weeks with him
Great stuf, never tought about adjusting from the botom to minimize bleeddown.. 👍
Always learning some thing new..
I adjusted some chevy rockers many years ago and it idled terribly, so I tightened each rocker until the valves wouldn't close and the cylinder wouldn't build pressure. Then I backed it off as you mention, about a quarter turn. Now I back them off a turn or two, aiming for the middle of the lifter travel. I found that all of the cylinders had the same compression instead of being a few pounds off from each other. Also, the engine idled like an electric motor, you could set a full cup of coffee on top an it wouldn't spill a drop.
PEOPLE have no idea how the adjustment on rockers is to be very precise,all 8 cylinders need to be the same,all the time,i used to race on the street as a kid of 19,i used to buy valve cover gaskets in the box,box of 20,this one thing i did on the engine kept me winning all of my races,i made more money street racing than i made on my job,blueprinting a stock engine is good for 35 horsepower at the flywheel,,my engine came with solid lifters from the factory,being precise is everything,i learn from this guy every time i watch his videos,im a master tech of 47 years,he's the master
Yey I have even done with a vaccum guage.but mostly by ear of course running.
that's a great way to do that. Mechanics are so smart🤓
David covered the 1/4 turn from the bottom. Some may have missed his comments. You must pull the lifter out and take it apart to remove all oil out first. Now my head says that the rocker will have to be cranked down and the rocker tip will be off set from center of the valve stem so a longer push rod should be used to correct the rocker in the middle of the valve stem. This could possibly give you a little more rocker ratio too.
Mr Vizard, I really enjoy your videos !!! I'm 67 years old, back in 1972 l bought a 1965 Chevelle SS with a 327-350hp /wide ratio Muncie 4 speed and 4:10 with posi-traction. The person l bought it from was a mechanic at the local Chevrolet Dealer, He the original owner and street raced a little bit. Since he worked for the dealer he got a big discount on parts. The car had several different engines over time. He just removed a L88 427 because he couldn't get big enough tires so it wouldn't smoke the tires. He sold the 427 and went back to a new 327-350hp, it had Hooker headers and a 780cfm vacuum secondary carb. He also used a set of Engle anti-pump up lifters, It would pull to 6500rpm in first, I shifted into 3rd and 4th at 6000. He told me the stock lifters would pump up at about 5500rpm. I have read articles in various magazine articles that said they didn't work and some said they worked good. What is your opinion on anti-pump up lifters ?
I always try to watch Mr . Vizard videos and I appreciate the information. As for the lifter adjustment when I got out of tech school I went to work for GM a long time ago . I set the lifters on my engines a small block Chev as a lot of guys a quarter to half down . I did not care for the rattle for a short period of time after start up . On my hot rod street driven Camaro a 68 Camaro I had a 302 that I ran solid lift roller cam . I think it was a 600 isky . I use to change the lash as you suggested and I did help the idle and the way the engine responds to low end torque . A few years ago I bought a money pit Harley. That have warmed over SS engines and that's where I learned to set the lifters very close to the bottom of the travel . I have a couple of these bikes the other has limiter in the lifter . Same thing set lifter just where it has lash cold and a bit more . One thing for sure in my option lifters are a maintenance item replace or rebuild them if possible. The reason to check lash pretty often is to catch the failed lifters hopefully.
Seems you might be onto something since there has been a plague of Camshafts being wiped out mostly on flat tap hydraulic camshafts during break in or shortly there after. Some claim bad lifters others the metallurgy of the cams being made today, others say its the person didn't follow the break in procedure correctly. I feel its the crap being made over seas (China) with little to no QC of products going to be sold by the Companies importing this products. They need to do testing before peddling garbage to John Q Public , not after the complaints start piling up.
@@jimbetts5164 yea I run as good a lifter as I can find in my money pits . Still I replace them before they fail. When they fail and the metal goes through the oil system it's a bad outcome
David: Don't sell yourself short, and now, I won't either....anymore. This video is great. See ya!
Thank you DV. I appreciate all your help
Thank you so much you just saved me from grief over variable duration hydralic lifters. Im putting a little lopey cam in my 318. Im getting my education on it as i go. Thanks again.
318LA-Mopar? For street? and stock stroke?
That's a tuff nut to crack, she need lots of Scr to get even modest cylinder pressure, with a late-closing intake angle; And you may not be able to get an off the shelf piston.
IMO, which doesn't count for much,lol, it's better to put the power in the heads and run a shorter period cam...... unless you run a pretty loose TC, then pretty much anything goes. Happy HotRodding.
Wow, worth listening to more than once.thx
Cummins says to tighten the adjuster on the N14 til you feel a light drag, or to a certain number of inch-pounds.
I bought a torque screwdriver to eliminate any discrepancy on a "light drag" and haven't been in one since.
Thank u David 4 clearing up the zink info....!...cant tell u how importain that is to me....thank u thank u thank u....stay healthy....looking forward to the next video...reguards, Brian
I like the bushed lifters because when they break, they don't spit out needles that block the oil passages and go though the engine.
Re hydraulic lifter preload, IIRC in the factory Mopar performance bulletins from years ago recommended for the hot street/strip setup to preload the lifter fully 1.5 turns.
I did that on my 440 and the way it revved up was insane for a hydraulic valvetrain.
All it had was a Mopar Performance Purple Stripe hydraulic camshaft, lifters and valve springs (which were a single spring + counter wound damper). It would go to 6700rpm no problems at all.
Thank you sir. you are the pro. and my thanks to Smoky Unaka for his history and his genus !!
Another great video thanks again this with us David
Back in the early eighties I was into Hot VWs, when I was building a few I was purchasing a product called Microlon assembly lube and oil. It was used in aircraft and aerospace industry.
Amazing Insight. Thank you David!
DV THANK YOU FOR THE WISDOM SIR I HAVE BEEN FALLOWING YOUR TEACHINGS SINCE EARLY 90S MY PASSION WITH FORDUM AND FLOW BENCHES
I got dyslexia from reading this comment
Thank you David, Happy New Year!
On the subject of fast bleed down lifters, I've pondered the idea of of using a solenoid to control the oil pressure to some modified lifters that allows them to drain down when open and forces them to pump up when closed. ie, redneck Vtec.
The specific application is an older dohc cam on bucket design that predates most variable cam technology.
My friend did something with valve timing lash rocker arms a certain angle of the rocker arm produced more lift. A way around the rule book more lift with the same cam that you're allowed to use.
smoky would be proud 😅
As a teenager my 400 Pontiac wouldn't rev up very high without cutting out, hydraulic cam. Converted it to adjustable, (BB Chevy studs screwed right in) loosened till it rattled, tighten an 1/8th turn. Problem solved. I've always thought you want the lifter on the top of it's travel, based on that experience.
Interesting video!
Decades in, doing it exactly like that, no problems. Set ‘em up loose and let ‘em wind! Been trying to wear out the same rotating assembly since 89.
@@apachebill Read about it in a Pontiac magazine. A dealership in the early 60s set up super stock Pontiacs that way. Fixed the problem with that 400 anyway.
You might think I'm crazy but when I rebuilt my Pontiac 400 I used Royal Purple full synthetic 10W 30 and it wore in perfect. That's been 10 years ago and still a healthy engine. If I build another one I will do the same thing and God forbid if the cam fails I know its not the oil. I plan on building a hotter version 400 with ported heads and a little bigger cam nothing drastic.
Thank you Mr.David for the content!
Top video full of useful info, thanks for sharing again David 🇦🇺💪
Yes!! I had a 65 CJ5 with a F134 engine. I could feel a slight increase in opening the lash to the wide side of the clearance range.
It was rated at 72hp so small changes could be felt. Opening up the spark plug gap was a small change as well.
On "solids" ,I always set my valves to the loose side of the spec.
Pops said years ago it's probably a good idea of you run em hard , and 2 thou more lift by running em tight is going to do nothing for you as far as power, but it's nice for the valves to do their heat transfer trick by being closed for that much longer.
@@MrTheHillfolk Agree! It's better to be on the loose side as opposed to tight, in the case of solid lifters. Especially if your goal includes the valve actually dwelling on the seat.
I Was Not Exspecting To Come Across An Oil Additive / Oil That's Recommend By David. Really Glad I Came Across This Video. I Have Been Using VR1 Full Synthetic 20W50 With Zinc Already Mixed In It Solely Because AutoZone Has Been Carrying It. I Guess I'm The Only One Using It In My Area Because After About A Year Of Daily Driving With Oil Changes Every 2 Months (3000 Miles) They No Longer Have It On Shelf's. So Now I'm Gonna Need To Order Oil. Since I Have To Order Oil The Oil Extreme Seems Like A Viable Replacement. It's Also Not That Much More Than The VR1 I Was Using.
Hi David, I have a question concerning setting lash on a solid flat tappet cam in my big block chevy with roller tip rockers. When inserting the feeler gauge between the roller and the valve tip is there a difference in accuracy if I move the feeler gauge in line with the roller tip or If I move it parallel to the tip as I adjust?
Thanks for your help, I love watching your videos.
Max
hi david another great video thank you
Great information, Thank You.
Excellent content
I use the cheap OE-R comp short travel lifters. 8000rpm no sweat. They don't have a lot of travel but you can still adjust them from the bottom.
Any horsepower or torque gains you felt from swapping lifters? So did you top preload or bottom preload with the Comps?
Great video DV thank you what about Geometry of push rods to rockers when doing this from the bottom adjustment
FIAT Cinquecento 'Trofeo' 4 cil. 900 cc engine:
- Mechanical lifters
- 289 degree camshaft
- double valve springs (Autobiachi A112 Abarth 70hp)
- standard diameter valves and rings
- skimmed off 0.5 mm from the block
- head gasket min. 1 mm
- minimum height of head = 69.5 (but seems unlikely to me. Must be higher to continue using after skimming: 70.15?)
- oil cooler
- Weber Marelli 34 mm SPi injection house (30 mm standard
- compression ratio: 10.5:1 (or near by)
- Magnetti Marelli ECU IAW 6F.1Z 'FIAT 500 SPORT'
- 4-2-1 spaghetti exhaust manifold
- intake manifold inter grated in the head casting (which actually s*cks > the valves are not in a 90 degree position but rather the opposite.)
- Champion spark plugs with two grounds > not available so changed to similar ones from Bosch)
- Sport cat.
- Mid exhaust pipe larger diameter.
David you said hydraulic lifters wouldn't pump up if you had a good spring. I had the 448lbs .over-the-nose AFR spring on my SBC. When I adjusted the lash as Compcams (limited travel hydraulic roller recommended 1/4-1/2 turn). It backfired every time I let off on acceleration. I called Compcams and they told me to try for 0-1/8 turn and it stopped backfiring. The lifter was pumping up and hanging the valve open. The reason they are noisy is to get them to work they actually have a small amount of lash when hot. Their cam was great but their lifters aren't to be trusted. What happens to a hydraulic lifter when it has 0.001-0.002 lash when hot. I suspect it beats the axle.
LOL, I've just read this post after I had posted up my thoughts on Rover/Buick engines, I think that your valves were hanging open, this situation could get very dodgy around the time that the piston and exhaust valve get close near the end of the exhaust stroke.
Why would they have lash when hot? If anything, the pre-load would become greater when hot due to the cam lobe getting larger and the pushrod, lifter, and valve stem getting longer due to thermal expansion (that's why solid lifter lash gets tighter on a hot engine vs. a cold one) A hydraulic lifter should never have any lash if it's functioning correctly, unless you float the valves, which will wreak a cam and collapse lifters anyway, because then the lobe while on its way up, impacts the bottom of the lifter while on its way down, rapidly ruining both of them and bending pushrods. Additionally, hydraulic lifters shouldn't be noisy, ever (unless they have collapsed) at least much less so than solid lifters. You'd be surprised how many people mistake their normal fuel injector clicking for imaginary lifter noise lol.
You were probably experiencing bleed-down and bottoming out the limited travel lifters, not only ruining them straight away but also causing the valves to close too rapidly and bounce off their seats. 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn for preload seems excessive for a limited travel lifter. As David mentioned, some lifters don't fill with oil properly when preloaded down near the bottom of their travel. It has been my experience that hydraulic lifters do not pump up beyond their initial preload, with the exception of floating valves caused by not enough spring pressure and/or too high of RPMs for the application. Oil pressure is always substantially less than valve spring pressure, add in the rocker ratio and there is no way that oil pressure can overcome the valve spring pressure and pump up a lifter beyond its initial preload, unless you float the valves which is always detrimental to an engine, every time, without exception.
Same experience here with comp lifters they will hold the valves open
Mr. Vizard ( sorry for the formality), but feel compelled to call you " Sir David Vizard" since you have been the inspiration of multiple generations of engine builders ( and still do to this vary day ) across the globe. It's like I'm texting Royalty. So ..My question - I have a mopar 340 engine that is #s matching for my 70 challenger , it was rebuilt by a shop in Illinois 5k miles before I bought the car. 500 miles later cam goes flat.To be fair this was some 10 years later, Upon inspection I find One lifter bore very worn, most likely the begining of the problems. If the block was salvageable how would you proceed with repairing that lifter bore etc. Would you press in only one bushing and bore it to the original diameter or do all of them at one time etc. My first thought was to find oversize size lifters and hone to that diameter with tolerances , like the factory did back in the day. I might be emailing rhe wrong people out here in CA. but have had zero luck getting an answer as to options and if someone could do the work and/or capable of manufacturing a set for me if a set are not available NOS or aftermarket. The only consistent answer I have received is "unless its a 426 Hemi or 6 pak ( 440 ) your better off getting a new block. i would like to hear your thoughts and any advise you might be willing to share or even a referral to someone competent you might know. If you were willing to do the work to build that engine that would be even better. I get that's most likely not going to happen but thought I would throw that out there to see if you might not be opposed to the idea. Anyway love the series and am a subscriber to your channel. Please keep the videos coming they are wonderful. HAPPY NEW YEAR from Northern California. Take care be safe- James
What about running solid lifters on a hydraulic cam It’s been a practice with Jersey speed skiff racers I did it a few times for customers and it worked fine I set the lash at .005 and .007 on the ex . What are your thoughts ? Thank you for your excellent videos ,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!
Something that frustrates me to no end when choosing a hydraulic lifter is that most manufacturers don't offer up front is what the plunger travel range is. I need that to determine appropriate pushrod length. Maths for stud mounted rockers get us the plunger to pushrod movement for preload: 7/16-20 yields .050" per full turn of the lock and 3/8-24 yields .041" per full turn. I like to set the pushrod 40-50% into the lifter's plunger travel range, and lengthen the pushrod accordingly. I then add that measurement, as closely as possible, to the verified pushrod length, having already used a test spring that doesn't move the plunger. No hydraulic lifter should be sold without the plunger travel spec clearly advertised, IMHO.
Take the popular and oft misunderstood Chevrolet 'LS7' lifter. It's known that its travel range is about .110". On a 7/16-20 stud it takes 3/4 - 1 full turn to get to between .0375" - .050". 40% in the plunger travel would be .044" and 50% would be .055". So even 3/4 turn would not do it. One full turn yields .050", which is 45-46% into the lifter's plunger travel. 1 1/4 turns is a little on the tighter end, being 62-63% into the plunger's travel. Lots of consumers of the 'LS7' lifters preload them too loosely (1/4 - 1/2 turn) and complain of lots of noise and even some failures, as there is just enough bleed down to skate the roller on the cam lobe at too light of a preload.
I've been using LS7 factory style lifters for a while now. Always given 1/4-1/2 turn preload after zero lash. Wondering if 1 full turn from zero would be beneficial to a little more power.
I love Rhoads fast bleed, oil groove flat tappet lifters. In fact they’re the only lifter I will use.
Thanks Dave...Can you do a chat about "Rev Kits" Please.? After all they are a big part in valve train control for high reving engines....Cheers mate...Zig from downunder.
One thing to consider regarding lash is the ACTUAL rocker ratio.
A stamped steel chevrolet SB rocker is actually 1.37 ratio VS a true 1.5 ~ BB rockers are 1.7 actual 1.57. If adjusted for a true 1.5 the valves will close at greater than ramp velocity.
DAVE CROWER designed a solid roller cam for my 69 Z28 which had a 12:1 compression ratio the cam dropped the valves to just above the seats and then slowly let them down so the factory heads were not hammered with the high spring pressures.
Dear Mr. Vizard, I have seen a few of your videos where you speak about the importance of running a tighter lobe separation angle than the 112 most cam manufacturers are pushing on everyone. I'm not sure how much experience you have with LS engines however that is what I am building for my 2004 GTO 6spd manual. It came with a 346ci LS1, that engine siezed, I am planning to build a 408ci iron block stroker for it, I am planning to use 243 cylinder heads, possibly ported, because the cathedral port heads produce more TQ under the curve, I would like to use a $335 summit 240/252 @ 0.050" .569/.569 106 lsa cam in it, probably with 1.8 ratio rockers that would bring the effective duration and lift at the valve up to 244/256 .604/.604 106 does that sound like a better idea than the common cheap, $120, large cam which is the 238/242 .595/.595 112 or 242/246 .630/.630 112 with 1.8 rockers? I would probably use a FAST 102 or Holley Hi-Ram intake manifold and long tube headers. It's a heavier car and has a relatively tall 3.46 axle ratio, so TQ is going to make a big difference and because it's a manual aggressive cam timing shouldn't be a much of a negative. Does it sound like I am on the right track?
The 1.8 rocker isn’t going to change the duration, just give you more lift. And from my understanding and what I’ve seen, the LS usually do better with wider LSA. Your comment is from 3months ago so I’m sure you’ve already pulled the trigger lol I’d be interested to hear how your car is doing with 106LSA
Pretty much every running-in procedure from any Cam Manufacturer I can find says - use Joe Gibbs, Penn, Lunati running in oil (I like the straight 30 weight) WITHOUT any Zinc supplement for the initial runin phase and the first 500 miles. I actually saw a test where they added a bottle of ZDDP supplement to an oil and it didn't give any appreciable increase in zinc to the oil, only the find all the actual ZDDP was still lining the bottom and sides of the Additive bottle!
And again my thinking was backwards…
I only adj down 10thou and replace the hairpin clip with a snap ring. My thinking is, at high rpm the lifter can only pump up 10 thou and then be a solid lifter with a heavy snap ring that won’t pop out.
I too assumed if I cranked it down the factory amount )302 is 17-24lbs of torque which puts the pushrod .050 in the lifter)
Now I’ll have to check sweep of the valve tip when it’s compressed all the way….
Thanks for the info David!!!
David, great as always! Happy new year.
When I was a kid I tried adjusting my Chevy hydraulic flat tappet lifters when I was like 20 or so. Changed all the valve springs it was a mess. Ticked. Adjusted when running Was Mehh. Then. I had a Rocker arm stud pull many years later. Just a few months ago I Went through all the valves. Put all new push rods too because one was bent. I adjusted all of them by hand spinning the engine over and over. I also primed the oil pump some so the lifters were pumped up some for the final test. Came out well. Yea I noticed that a empty lifter is a PITA to adjust. Some of mine were sponge... Because I removed them to check the condition and pushed them with a screw driver haha. Shot the oil out.. Anyway runs nice. Better than it ever did. Hot lash running is crap for a chevy.
Oh man, you're lucky you didn't ruin them, installing 'em empty like that
@@johnny0454 How would I ruin a lifter if it had little to no oil in it. They are designed to still open the valves when there is no oil inside.
@GhettoWagon By hammering them to death on the cam lobe, which is a surefire way to collapse them and bend the pushrods, usually breaking the spring inside. Nobody, I mean literally nobody, installs hydraulic lifters without soaking them in oil first (usually overnight) to make sure all the air is out. Every service manual describes the procedure. Installed like that will ensure that there is still air trapped inside at the top of the lifter cavity, causing a spongy lifter because air can compress whereas a liquid cannot. A lifter, even a hydraulic one, is supposed to be hard as a rock, the internal spring is very light and is only in there for installation purposes so it can be bled before installation and then preloaded. They most certainly are not designed to still open the valves without being full of oil.
@@johnny0454 Soaking lifters in oil over night doesn't pump them up or bleed them, It only coats them in oil. For lifters to be "pumped" up, they have to have oil pumped into them, either from oil pressure in the engine or with some form of pump before installation. Lifters do not fill up by simply soaking them in oil, it's just not how they are designed, they are filled by oil pressure. But no one has to take my word for it, disassemble a lifter and make sure it is completely empty of oil, reassemble it and toss it in some oil overnight. The next day take it out, wipe it down and take a look inside, notice how much oil is in there..... None.
@tracyrobinson5704 You're incorrect, if soaked correctly (with the hole facing up) the air will seep out overnight, you can watch the bubbles come out. The internal spring holds them all the way open, no pumping or pressure required. In almost half a century of building engines, I don't know of anyone who does not do this.
I've read some studies on titanium dioxide as an anti-wear additive. One study showed that it greatly reduces wear but another study claimed mixing zddp and titanium dioxide worsened wear unless they sortof tacked some boron onto the zddp.
Titanium is just a cheap alternative to zinc
THANKS DAVID always great content
I don’t see a lifter groover on Comp’s site. Can you give us a part number? 20:08
Thank you DV
Awesome video. David Vizard is a whiz.
Hi David. I've seen you mention a Ford hydraulic roller lifter modification that costs about $0.20 that gives great benefit. Are you going to let us in on the trick? Or are you saving it for your next book? Love your videos. Regards Greg
I would like to know your thoughts and tests on Rev kits for hydraulic rollers. Future video???
Also, adjusting for minimum lifter plunger height (aka: minimum oil volume) leaves less room for air trapped in the lifter (which makes for spongy lifters).
Really interesting watch. I'm interested to know what effect creating a vortex within the intake would have by utilizing louvres on the velocity stacks and utilizing oval throttle butterflies that seal at 45° to the port rather than the traditional 90° round butterflies
Technical question for the Ford modular 4.6 engines. With no easy adjustment to their hydraulic lash adjusters, could you force them towards the bottom of their travel with a precise spacer underneath, so there's less maximum lash to take up?
If I turn my oil pump with an electric drill I see a fair amount oil coming out between the top of the solid lifters and the bottom of the pushrods because of the .020" lash. On a Pontiac V8 with its open area above the camshaft wouldn't that oil fall on to the cam lobe for good lubrication without needing the special hole in the bottom of the lifters or grooves in the lifter bores?
When a engine sits for a while ie over night, the cam and lifters are dry when the engine is started There's no lubrication until the rods throw oil onto the cam. It would be grate if you could squirt oil onto the cam before start up.
The lifter bore groover was interesting. Back in the day we would just grind a small groove on the lower half of the lifter to get a little extra oil to the lobes. Never had an issue with it but never had a pro stock engine either.
If anything I like to use Lucas, to tacky up the oil a bit, especially with a lot of gears and other metal to metal contact, engines with gear drives, or chains, and if lifters are getting noisy,
If I'm following this correctly, you should to keep adjusting a hydraulic flat tappet down until less oil is coming through the pushrod?
Maybe I just got a Wednesday set of linkbar lifters but my Howard’s Street hydraulic lifters have performed remarkably well with 3/4 turn of lash in my gen 1 SBC. I ran them that tight because Howard’s recommends running them .030-.035 lash and with my studs that’s what I mathed out my preload to be. Now my gen 2 LT1 ran like hammered turds on that much preload. It didn’t too much care for 1/4 either but runs just fine on 3/8’s turn preload. Go figure. She’s always
David be a idea to place a link for extreme oil the site will not let me go there! TY
First time ever I built a engine. The cam was a used cam but in good condition. I needed to put a new set of flat tappet lifters in . Broke the engine in it ran well. Let it cool down for a hour or so came back to run engine again and noticed it started skipping. Needless to say the lifters were shot. Thought I adjusted them wrong so I went back old school and adjusted lifter while engine was running and ever time I went to put the half turn preload tje engine would stall. Took out a lifters and placed it in a vise and seen the lifer would not plunge down any at all. They acted like a solid lifer. Anyone ever have this issue. Needless to say now I have to tear engine back down to clean all the metal from the bearings and block.
I have always wondered if you can use solid lifters in a hydraulic cam or hydraulic lifters in a solid cam. I use a Rhoads lifter. I like it cause it did tame the cam idle and I did not want to change the cam. it did rev out another 500 rpm easily and being turbo had all the power needed. Start up noise was terrible untill I ran extra oil lines to each end of the main oil gallery from the pump so there were effectively 3 oil feeds into the straight 6 main oil gallery and it totally solved the clack on startup problem and I would think a more even oil pressure in the main gallery may help under high revs
IMO, from what I think I know, solid lifters will be fine on a hydraulic cam and hydraulic on a solid cam gets "iffy".
I had a 350 Chevy. Adjusting the stock lifters with a stock cam had a problem it wouldn't idle as smooth as I thought it would with everything else correct. I ended up using a vaccum Guage with it running. It ran smooth and would start with a flick of the key. But did I loose any power?
Hmm always did half turn after first notice of friction, will have to try this method next time
Yep they're silent partners David. They get something in return for an approving article which is an implied endorsement.
So lash adjustment to increase your cam size ? A little more travel
Please do a vid especially if they fudged on numbers.
I know how to fix this issue, it's one simple part swap, just go to solid flats or rollers!! Haha problem solved!! ✌️and some nice thick aluminum valve covers, if you do not like they symphony going on under the hood!! I was running a old duntov30/30 it sounded like a room full of clocks!!!
Bear in mind that different metals expand at different rates so best match the cylinder head material imo.
How did the 30/30 Lash Duntove cames survive? 😮
Do you intend on making a 20w50 for Harley race engines?
David what do you think about Uncle Tony's no preload for hydraulic lifters for racing?
Would the lifter preload trick pretty much equal to a reduced travel lifter? I want to try it with my current LS7s
Hearing this dude is like nails on glass talking about an arrogant mother, but if you've been the smartest dude in the room for as long as he has I guess you get some degree of license for that attitude so as long as he's willing to talk I'm going to grit my teeth and intently listen...thank you sir for your willingness to share
My cousin told me that roller lifters were heavier than flat tappets so guys were experimenting with springs in the lifter valley on top of the lifter. They would put more pressure on the roller to avoid floating the valves at high RPM but not overwhelm the hydraulic lifter through the pushrod via the valve spring and rocker. Has anyone ever seen or used this setup?
They were doing that 3 decades ago
Yes. The old man's garage mentioned it in one episode but I have never seen it used on any car I have seen and like they say the weight over the cam is not the important side it's the valve side.
It used to be called a 'rev kit'. Was common on high rpm motors in the 80's. Supposedly you could run a little less valve spring, and get less push rod deflection as a secondary benefit. But I suspect most users simply wanted max revs
Yeah they started doing that in the late seventies early '80s I think
Thanks you all for the info. Does anyone still use this idea today, or did better hydraulic lifters make this idea obsolete?
Great video as always! I have heard some 60's Mopars used mushroom lifters and always wanted to find out how much they would help speed up low and mid lift. any thoughts?
Mushroom lifters required the block to be clearanced UNDER the lifter bore. Before installing the camshaft you roll the engine upside down and put the Mushroom lifters in from the bottom as the mushroom part is wider than the lifter bore. Then you put the camshaft in. All old Mopars have a 0.904" lifter but the Mushroom lifters were about 1 inch diameter. This allowed a MUCH taller lobe lift with a VERY fast ramp rate. A stock lifter's bottom edge would dig into the lobe where as the wider foot of the mushroom would not. Roller Cam lifts and duration with a slider lifter. Not a street cam/lifter......
Thanks!
David, have you used solid lifters on a hydraulic cam? 😊
Maybe it’s a liability issue,but when talking about valve lash. When you say to make it loose but not to loose,tells me nothing. Give us a scenario with a certain rocker ratio where it can damage the valve or pound the seat. This would be something from your vast experience that could save someone from finding out the hard way. Thanks and keep them coming.
David, what do you think of Rhoads lifters?
I want to ask a question. With hydraulic lifters a quarter turnout, does oil psi take away from valve seat psi? Or do the lifters allow just enough psi on the push rod to hold it tight?
Hey I love listening to you and learning from you but I’d like to make a suggestion how about getting a better camera to do your videos with. The one your using has horrible quality. Just my two cents.
As always a big 👍