Notice you did not actually show cleaning the flame sensor and if it changed your reading. That is usually all it needs 9 of 10 times. Can count on one hand how many flame sensors I have actually had to replace in 20 years, and still have a couple fingers left. They were either broken/cracked on the insulator and one was burnt into from an old LP Gas pack.
Seems like a lot of work when two seconds removing and rubbing it on material and reinstalling will work or not. If not, I use a resistor/ diode jumper (it fakes the reading back to the board) to make sure the board is good. Flame sensors rarely, almost never go bad they just corrode and need to be cleaned/ wiped off as long as the porcelain is not cracked and the burner ground is good.
@@realSamAndrew I am trying to find the original article on how to make it. It came from the hvac-talk board. User slctech or my id. It will take some searching. The last note I saw was from 2016. But a male spade (flame sensor spades are male) to a 1M ohm resistor to a 1N4005 diode to an alligator clip. Use some wire to make it longer and separate the components. The male spade is plugged into the FS lead to the board and when the GV opens clip the alligator to the ground (burner chassis). The diode creates the DC feedback the board is expecting.
One interesting characteristic of the micro-amps with a real flame is that the current varies and is not "rock steady." When you "fake it" with a resistor and a diode does the controller detect that it's not "the real thing" because the current doesn't follow the pattern of a flame?@@rcstl8815
The microamps are not identical on all furnaces, so they need to be checked against the furnace documentation. Those very rarely need to be replaced. They are just a piece of metal. It's usually connectors that are corroded that give problems
i just use a can of duster to blow the dust away when mine does this lol... fixed for another winter!! that and the glow plug for the burner likes to break on my unit
I'm in the process of running down a flame sensor issue with my Trane package unit(gas pack). Not definite yet but it does appear that in my case the flame sensor bracket was losing ground bond and causing early shutdown. If so I've been told this is quite rare. I'm going to add a separate grounding wire from the mount bracket to see if that keeps it working. I still need to check it as you're showing in the video. But it's outside and cold and working now so will wait till I have to open it up again.
Bro you should have an mascot name tip, so you can say he is de one giving us the “knowledge”. So you can say “Hey this is Tip and and I am Tad here to drop a tip for technicians”
Very good video and thank you for sharing but I was wondering why you didn't first check from the IFC to the flame sensor without the burner ignited. Flame rectification requires a AC signal of around 50-180 AC volts from the IFC to the flame sensor. The flame sensor will have AC voltage on it when the unit has power on it and you could get shocked! Once the flame sensor is in the flame, that AC current travels through the flame as 2-7 DCMA through the burner and through the ground back to the IFC. I have seen Flame Sensors misdiagnosed because there was no AC voltage going to the flame sensor before ignition.
Interesting I have only seen two bad flame sensors in over 30 years. Back in the late 90s trane had issues with with their very thin sensors on propane systems. The only other one was one that I stepped on while do a cleaning of a furnace. I would like to know why that was bad? I have seen several of your videos and know you know what you are doing, but that sensors looked good. I have a guess that wasn't the issue. I would be willing to bet the burners are worn and causing the flame to drop. The longer sensors is in the flame better. Goodman had issues with burners doing that. The field fix is a hack. You loosen the 4 screws to the gas manifold. Put a washer, the thickness of a penny behind each of the upper 2 screws. This will cause the flame to hit the sensors again. The fix is to replace the burners that was what the recall was on those units years ago. Happy Easter
Now I have questions like what’s the voltage that the control is sending? Is it looking for a specific resistance that a flame may provide? Could I test control integrity by disconnecting the female sensor terminal and putting it to ground right when the appears?
No, the current must be solely in the micro-amp region----that is the actual voltage presented is alternating current, BUT the rectification process is only allowed when there is a flame- the flame basically acts as a low quality, but functioning nominally, diode where the positive versus the negative current is very slightly asymetric- that differential is the micro-amps read- the flame does create a resistance, but as a result of diode action difference in resistance (measured as micro-amps) between positive and negative alternation is perceived as the presence of a flame.
One note here that he should mention. The rod may look clean. You may get the rest of the season out of it if you clean it with sandpaper. What happens is the rod metal becomes crystalized from the heat and changes its electrical properties. To avoid call backs or a cold night, replace it ASAP. Just did one the other night.
Interesting video, and some obviously knowledgeable replies to the thread as well... Just a couple of quick questions re the testing...I understand that the wire from the FS could be faulty, hence why you tested between the FS and the board direct, but could you use the clamp to take a reading without disconnecting the wire? Or are the results from using the clamp meter not as accurate enough? Secondly, with the flame sensor disconnected/removed , if you hooked up the leads to your meter to the outputs directly and applied a flame from say a turbo lighter or small torch, would you expect to see an output?
clamp-on ammeter only good for AC current only- for DC ammeter the test instrument must be on the proper scale, in this case micro-amps AND wired IN SERIES by the test instrument (the ammeter function on the multimeter) @@peterevans8194
How do you like these package units man? I think I need one. The only downside I see is that your always out in the cold, snow and even rain possibly working on them. No one needs their heat worked on until you get records temp drops. Not always but sometimes right?
I like package units But you can get higher efficiencies with split units plus the equipment last sometimes longer. They go out in the most extreme temperatures but not always
@@TaddyDigest Well thanks for sharing man! Hey do heat limit switches to cut off the gas get power from the W terminal when using 24V? I have an old Honeywell fan limit switch. The fan side is stuck closed and the heat limit 24V side gets power from the Y terminal. That can't be right can it? the other end winds up at terminal 1 of the S86F igniter box where I am missing my 24 V to turn the gas on. This is an 86 model Rheem 11EAR-JR. Soon be knocking on 40 years old.
That” hard to see” only gets worse with age! At first more light helped, but eventually the eye glasses become mandatory! Thanks for giving those mA values!
Actually, in gas ovens the sensor is a combination of an intermittent pilot & a thermocouple-for so-called "off grid" stoves.------More traditional line operated stoves (AC power required) simply have a globar heating element wired in series with the gas valve solenoid.-----Gas valve cannot open, stay open and allow gas flow unless globar is "red hot."
I always knew this but I have never actually measured the amps. Thanks for the class.
Happy to help!
FROM CHICAGO EXELENT I'M ONE OF MANY PEOPLE FOLOWING YOUR VIDEOS THANK YOU SO MUCH
Short and sweet. Thanks
Notice you did not actually show cleaning the flame sensor and if it changed your reading. That is usually all it needs 9 of 10 times. Can count on one hand how many flame sensors I have actually had to replace in 20 years, and still have a couple fingers left. They were either broken/cracked on the insulator and one was burnt into from an old LP Gas pack.
Well, the replacement is $40 !! vs maybe $10, so someone is happy selling them, LOLOL. Its amazing the amount of crappola I see people doing.
I have no idea, that’s why I come here to learn!
Seems like a lot of work when two seconds removing and rubbing it on material and reinstalling will work or not. If not, I use a resistor/ diode jumper (it fakes the reading back to the board) to make sure the board is good. Flame sensors rarely, almost never go bad they just corrode and need to be cleaned/ wiped off as long as the porcelain is not cracked and the burner ground is good.
Yup you're right usually you can clean them off and then reinstall and everything works fine.
How did you make that jumper? Would like to keep one handy
@rcstl, like the person before me, I also am interested in more info on that diode jumper.
@@realSamAndrew I am trying to find the original article on how to make it. It came from the hvac-talk board. User slctech or my id. It will take some searching. The last note I saw was from 2016. But a male spade (flame sensor spades are male) to a 1M ohm resistor to a 1N4005 diode to an alligator clip. Use some wire to make it longer and separate the components. The male spade is plugged into the FS lead to the board and when the GV opens clip the alligator to the ground (burner chassis). The diode creates the DC feedback the board is expecting.
One interesting characteristic of the micro-amps with a real flame is that the current varies and is not "rock steady." When you "fake it" with a resistor and a diode does the controller detect that it's not "the real thing" because the current doesn't follow the pattern of a flame?@@rcstl8815
I started at the field couple years ago and your videos are very helpful thanks alot tadd for sharing your experiences and knowledge
Excellent video brother!
I’m glad I found your channel👍
absolutely great vlog. You do good work Taddy!
Thanks so much
The microamps are not identical on all furnaces, so they need to be checked against the furnace documentation. Those very rarely need to be replaced. They are just a piece of metal. It's usually connectors that are corroded that give problems
Great videos, have been a long time follower and have loved each one
Great video Tad!
Thanks!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, great video
Nice instruction thanks
Thank you very Much Tad! Professional All the Way!
Much appreciated!
Awesome job, straight to the point, not filters, thanks .
i just use a can of duster to blow the dust away when mine does this lol... fixed for another winter!! that and the glow plug for the burner likes to break on my unit
I'm in the process of running down a flame sensor issue with my Trane package unit(gas pack). Not definite yet but it does appear that in my case the flame sensor bracket was losing ground bond and causing early shutdown. If so I've been told this is quite rare. I'm going to add a separate grounding wire from the mount bracket to see if that keeps it working. I still need to check it as you're showing in the video. But it's outside and cold and working now so will wait till I have to open it up again.
tadonious! great content bro!
More to come!
Bro you should have an mascot name tip, so you can say he is de one giving us the “knowledge”.
So you can say “Hey this is Tip and and I am Tad here to drop a tip for technicians”
That's a Mouthful ...
Thanks for another helpful video
I always went by 2-4 micro amps is a good read and no cleaning of the stainless steel rod required.
Thank you. Now I know.
Very good video and thank you for sharing but I was wondering why you didn't first check from the IFC to the flame sensor without the burner ignited. Flame rectification requires a AC signal of around 50-180 AC volts from the IFC to the flame sensor. The flame sensor will have AC voltage on it when the unit has power on it and you could get shocked! Once the flame sensor is in the flame, that AC current travels through the flame as 2-7 DCMA through the burner and through the ground back to the IFC. I have seen Flame Sensors misdiagnosed because there was no AC voltage going to the flame sensor before ignition.
good stuff thanks for sharing
Interesting I have only seen two bad flame sensors in over 30 years. Back in the late 90s trane had issues with with their very thin sensors on propane systems. The only other one was one that I stepped on while do a cleaning of a furnace. I would like to know why that was bad? I have seen several of your videos and know you know what you are doing, but that sensors looked good. I have a guess that wasn't the issue. I would be willing to bet the burners are worn and causing the flame to drop. The longer sensors is in the flame better. Goodman had issues with burners doing that. The field fix is a hack. You loosen the 4 screws to the gas manifold. Put a washer, the thickness of a penny behind each of the upper 2 screws. This will cause the flame to hit the sensors again. The fix is to replace the burners that was what the recall was on those units years ago. Happy Easter
thank you! great video!
Thank you!
You're welcome!
Great Video!!👍
Thanks Tad!
Thanks. Didn't know there were adjustable flame sensors out there.
Glad I could help
Thank for share your video👍😎
Great little demo ... I have that same meter ... How do you like it ? Thx
Thanks for watching brother I love it my favorite meter so far.
Most decent meters give you the ability to zero out the meter leads. I’d assume yours does also.
Thanks for show how you do....❤
You're welcome
Now I have questions like what’s the voltage that the control is sending? Is it looking for a specific resistance that a flame may provide? Could I test control integrity by disconnecting the female sensor terminal and putting it to ground right when the appears?
No, the current must be solely in the micro-amp region----that is the actual voltage presented is alternating current, BUT the rectification process is only allowed when there is a flame- the flame basically acts as a low quality, but functioning nominally, diode where the positive versus the negative current is very slightly asymetric- that differential is the micro-amps read- the flame does create a resistance, but as a result of diode action difference in resistance (measured as micro-amps) between positive and negative alternation is perceived as the presence of a flame.
Thanks you so much tad
One note here that he should mention. The rod may look clean. You may get the rest of the season out of it if you clean it with sandpaper. What happens is the rod metal becomes crystalized from the heat and changes its electrical properties. To avoid call backs or a cold night, replace it ASAP. Just did one the other night.
If the ceramic is cracked, the small amount of current goes directly to the ground instead of the control board.
Interesting video, and some obviously knowledgeable replies to the thread as well...
Just a couple of quick questions re the testing...I understand that the wire from the FS could be faulty, hence why you tested between the FS and the board direct, but could you use the clamp to take a reading without disconnecting the wire? Or are the results from using the clamp meter not as accurate enough?
Secondly, with the flame sensor disconnected/removed , if you hooked up the leads to your meter to the outputs directly and applied a flame from say a turbo lighter or small torch, would you expect to see an output?
The clamp on meter is good for A/C but the flame sensor is very low D/C amps. This is called "Flame reification". His testing method is good.
@@d.l.harrington4080 Thank you...I wasn't doubting the test method used, but rather trying to understand the limitations of the clamp meter....
I didn't think you were. I wish it was that simple just to us a clamp on.@@peterevans8194
clamp-on ammeter only good for AC current only- for DC ammeter the test instrument must be on the proper scale, in this case micro-amps AND wired IN SERIES by the test instrument (the ammeter function on the multimeter) @@peterevans8194
My unit is so old can't find a replacement. What do you suggest?
Perfect 👍
Glad you think so!
How do you like these package units man? I think I need one. The only downside I see is that your always out in the cold, snow and even rain possibly working on them.
No one needs their heat worked on until you get records temp drops. Not always but sometimes right?
I like package units
But you can get higher efficiencies with split units plus the equipment last sometimes longer.
They go out in the most extreme temperatures but not always
@@TaddyDigest Well thanks for sharing man! Hey do heat limit switches to cut off the gas get power from the W terminal when using 24V? I have an old Honeywell fan limit switch. The fan side is stuck closed and the heat limit 24V side gets power from the Y terminal.
That can't be right can it? the other end winds up at terminal 1 of the S86F igniter box where I am missing my 24 V to turn the gas on.
This is an 86 model Rheem 11EAR-JR.
Soon be knocking on 40 years old.
That” hard to see” only gets worse with age! At first more light helped, but eventually the eye glasses become mandatory! Thanks for giving those mA values!
We are dealing with micro-amp (ua) values, not milli-amp (ma) values, thanks for a great video
I stand corrected. Thanks!
Good video
Thanks
This kind of sensor is similar of the oven type. Need flame for send son voltage with microamps.
Actually, in gas ovens the sensor is a combination of an intermittent pilot & a thermocouple-for so-called "off grid" stoves.------More traditional line operated stoves (AC power required) simply have a globar heating element wired in series with the gas valve solenoid.-----Gas valve cannot open, stay open and allow gas flow unless globar is "red hot."
Clean your sensors with steel wool not sandpaper etc, if it needs something super abrasive it’s probably time to swap it.
i have a furnace that runs most of the day and shuts off ..usually in the morning ..it shuts off with my ac as well/ what can this be??
Were you pulling the 24v wire off transformer to reset board?
yes
Better check that heat exchanger
You don't want a "dancing flame" when the main blower turns on shortly after the ignition.
👍
thanks
You're welcome
That flame sensor getting 120v . Watch out. ⚠️ 📢
You need to mention the wire is powered with ac voltage. Any where from 80 to 100 volts ac.
What meter is that?
Great video, yet that sensor is $40 vs others we use for $4bulk to $11,.... that wire must be very pricey ;-)
Good point!
Hi dear
Your video is awesome, I like it. By the way I am also a youtuber.
ua-cam.com/video/1bPjh78qh_Y/v-deo.html
Thank you so much 🙂
@@TaddyDigest
youtube.com/@CRISTELRONACSERVICE?si=8KuMiMmHRur9FO0j
Hm Goodman I never see like this
i still think it was the board AND flame sensor. easy a $932.86 call 😋😈
board $50 to 140, sensor maybe 10 ro 25, if its a tough location , maybe, but otherwise its a $150 labor.
uuh! almost forgot, 5lb of freon (r22)… $300 a lb 😈
Thanks for spreading your knowledge with the world @Taddy_Digest.
You're welcome my friend that's what i'm here for
Nicely done
Great video! 🤝
Thanks! 👍