It is not that pat the dog is wrong, I just think emphasising it as something for every player to focus on is problematic, similar to the racket drop on the serve it should happen naturally. I've seen a lot of players suffer from being stuck in the PTD position and losing fluidity. Obviously grips play a role and eastern will PTD less. Being able to NOT PTD (like Djokovic returning) is massively important so don't get caught up with all the PTD nonsense. - Tom Allsopp
02:30 Good point about Agassi's strings not pointing to the ground as is found with Djokovic. I think I understand the reason for that. Djokovic uses a more *abbreviated* backswing. Hence, the 5 0'clock Pat The Dog position. Whereas, Agassi uses a less compact, more circular backswing and hence no reason for strings to go face down in abbreviated Pat The Dog position. But I don't understand why Agassi's strings never point to the back fence as Djokovic does. Both Agassi and Djokovic use roughly the same SW grip. What is going on there? Why doesn't Agassi's strings point to the back fence? Is that also an important distinction?
It's not that it's wrong it' s that it's a result of doing things right. Consciously doing it often screws up the proper kinetic chain. You have it absolutely right Tom.
6:18 - turning the hips, great advice coach! Here's some pretty awesome advice that took me 12 years to figure out, to my fellow club level tennis players from across the world: While many, if not pretty much ALL, tennis coaches teach turning the SHOULDERS at the START of the forehand stroke, please don't listen to that, it's a terrible DISTRACTION and it happens later in the stroke automatically just before you start to turn back into the shot. It's NOT the shoulders that are doing the turning, it's the HIPS! When watching slow motion footage of PROs, STOP looking at their shoulders and focus instead on their HIPS (they are - via your legs and core - turning your WHOLE UPPER body, including the shoulders first back and then later into the shot). You will see that they turn in PARALLEL at the UNIT turn stage, i.e. the beginning. If you get his bit wrong right at the START, everything else will be off later as well. In tennis you need to use your ENTIRE body, legs/hips are THE KEY here, without them you will NEVER get beyond pushing the ball back and forth and that's where many coaches want you trapped FOREVER, so that you keep coming back to them for more PAID lessons/courses ;) Once you understand that the unit turn needs to be INITIATED by the hips, EVERYHTING changes. You start to SUBCONSCIOUSLY, i.e. without thinking, use your LEGS, that turn your HIPS, which turn your shoulders, i.e. KINETIC CHAIN but on AUTO-PILOT. That way you stay perfectly balanced, you automatically (without any additional thinking) engage your core and your POWER and consistency will grow exponentially. That's the KEY to a PRO forehand that NO ONE is telling you. I wonder why?! Once you have this down, you will FINALLY have a solid FOUNDATION and you can then start adding all the peripheral bits that everyone is teaching you here on UA-cam. Be sure to drop a LIKE on this comment if it helped you out, so that MORE people get to see it!
Now that you mention it UA-cam's algorithm is working against you. Your videos are concise and get to the point which is awesome for your viewers and keeps your videos at great quality. Unfortunately youtube tends to reward channels that talk longer and deliver whatever they're trying to say at the end of a 20 minute video. Regardless, I really appreciate what you are doing and want you to feel awesome for giving us such great content!
This video makes sense and comports with a lot of things I’ve been learning from taking lessons. There’s a difference between something naturally happening, and the player forcing something to happen.
Very good video! I used to try to tap the dog (willingly). It was a fair shot, as I involved my wrist, had lots of spin, but not so much power and went quite high over the net and landed deep. My problem was I could not hit angles (because of the high trajectory) and had some timing issues (as keeping the racquet still in "tap the dog" took away momentum and speed). Now my shot is simpler, I just turn, take the racquet back and just swing and throw it at the ball (looks a lot like yours). It's more powerful, has spin and I can hit better angles. All good! :)
I also felt like patting the dog was a superficial movement but still was trying to implement in every stroke. Will try this thing when racket facing back fence and then just a swing, Thanks!
Just found this great article. I so agree that dropping on edge is way easier and simpler than patting the dog. Bottom line, achieving the racquet lag angle, racquet angle vs forearm angle ideally around 90% at deepest point, is what is most important. I agree going straight into supranation and somewhat bypassing the pat the dog, is the simpler path. Fed, like Novak, does the same thing on forehand service returns.
on Djokovic didn't face the ground because he was on a serve return, when you are returning the serve is more about block and direct so we don't really need top spin. Agassi has a really long backswing and his shots don't have a lot of top spin. That is more for creating top spin and a player definitely needs to understand because a tennis players has to be able to adjust the backswing and the swing according to the ball we are receiving and/or sending.
I agree totally ,the stroke should be fluid rather that focusing to much on the back swing ,from experience I feel this is to tricky for a beginner better focus on good shoulder turn ,proper spacing and rotation which are crucial for a great stroke
Yet another fantastic video! It's great to see your body of work cumulate on forehand technique. This is helping me simplify and strengthen my forehand. Many thanks!!
I agree this shouldn't be taught to beginners. But it's a natural progression for a lot of advanced players. They start adding more levers to the forehand, and you see a lot if not most of the ATP pros utilizing this. Most of them probably weren't "taught" to do this. And a lot of the innovations you see today, standard procedure, wasn't because instructors thought of it, but because kids who grew up never playing with wood rackets naturally started doing little things to add more power and action to their shots. In general, instructors stand in the way of change, they're normally quite dogmatic about what is proper technique, but it's the players themselves who innovate proving what works in a "survival of the fittest" way. Open stances, western grips, swinging volleys, etc, were all controversial techniques.
This is an excellent point. I agree with your analysis. The "pat the dog" position is just a momentary position in the full swing. What pros do the deliberate stop-and-pat-the-dog technique?
only thing fake is his take on the pat the dog...there is nothing about pat the dog that suggest the racket needs to stop squarely facing string to the ground. I love how when some don't understand something correctly, they destroy their strawman as a myth.
@@chtomlin I would say that pat the dog is quite unnatural anyway. It's actually what Rick Macci seems to also refer to, making a difference between pat the dog and tap the dog. Pat the dog is actually staying with the strings completely parallel to the ground; tap the dog doesn't get completely parallel and it's what most of the top players do
I have been saying to my students that the Modern Forehand is very similar to the THROWING MOTION on the Serve. And, the leg extension initiates the racquet drop and flip. I loved the video! Thanks I’m 35-year USPTA Elite, USTA HP, ex-ATP trainer, and trying to teach modern methods correctly.
I know it’s been three years but 1. I disagree the forehand is more similar to a punch then a throw. A throw can be used just with the arm where as a punch gets the shoulder, body, and hips engaged. The serve also isn’t a throwing motion. If you watch former professional pitchers try to serve it looks different.
I think it’s interesting that some people keep the racquet in the pat the dog position as they swing forward (potentially leading to mishits?) but Djok, Fed and others actually immediately flip the racket into an open or on edge position as they start the forward part of the swing. I don’t do pat the dog but filming myself it seems I do on low balls without even thinking about it.
Simply, you don’t need a ”pat the dog -position” in your forehand but you need a fluid explosive motion from the ground up and lo and behold if you do it correctly with the optimal FORM & LOOSENESS there will be that ”position” and the ”lag”, especially if you swing the stick with some eastern grip variant like Fed & I.
Nice video as always Tom! How important is it for the strings to face the back fence during the backswing? My forehand trophy position is similar to Djokovic's one at 0:54 with my forearm and racquet face pointing towards the right. However, I accelerate forward from that position. From what I can see, I should continue with my shoulder turn until my racquet face points towards the back fence. I'm guessing this will give me more power. It'll be harder to time but it should be a better shot once I get used to it!
Sounds like you aren't coiling as much as you could. If you have time and want to generate more power see if you can load up more and your strings will likely point to the back fence.
I get the point and others have take about closed face or open face. What is often forgotten is the effect of the grip. If Tom were to use his exact same stroke with a semi or full western grip the racket head will be closed
This is true. Grip matters. Pat the dog is still something that should just happen naturally. And seeing Djokovic not do it shows that it’s also relative to that shot and intentions.
Good stuff. Ain’t initially taught my daughter that “pat the dog” concert based on a popular UA-cam video. But I changed her take back about a year ago to a continuous loop, and she’s gotten much more control and easy power now.
Nice video Tom, I agree it has to be fluid and Natural and teaching pat the dog Will make it mechanical and causes tensionsin the hand. Don’t you think the position of the racket is a natural consequence of the use of the elbow? When a baseball pitcher leads with the elbow in the preparation the palm Will be down. Agassi has a more Classic takeback with the racket first, while a lot of todays players lead with the elbow like a baseball pitcher. This Will have consequences of how the racket dropshot and get to the pat the dog position or not. In my opinion its quite the same principle with the serve. Instead of lead with the edge of the frame, just throw the elbow upward. Looking forward to your response. Best, Paul
"throwing the arm" - I was born and raised on an island (Philippines), it's like throwing a flat stone into the sea such that it bounces twice or more, something like that. Yes, that's how my friend taught me how to hit a forehand.
Been gradually working my way through your videos as my time permits, Tom. Have to say you have the finest understanding of stroke biomechanics of any tennis coach I’ve ever heard; and an outstanding practical approach to teaching students how to make it work for them on an individual basis. Great stuff!
A coach told me patting the dog leads to more topspin, is that an accurate statement? What should I be visualizing to achieve more spin, is it low to high + racquet head speed? Cheers!
Good analysis as always. Players that force the concept of 'pat the dog' tend to frame the ball more frequently for sure. Keep it simple and just let it happen as part of the full shape of the swing. As you also mentioned, it is not always necessary to close that racket face before contact. Great job at tweaking those forehands too 👍
Hi Tom, very appreciate this. Does it also work for high forehand-Balls? I think it‘s a bit more difficult to supinate. Would you show us the motion with the high forehand? Thank‘s
Pat the dog happens more on low balls, on high balls its more important to just supinate and not lower the racket to that position... assuming you want to not hit a lot of topspin.
The wrist and the forearm, if left alone, would naturally end up positioning your palm and the racket face horizontally. That is simply how we are put together. By the time the racquet gets to the point of striking the ball, it will reorient itself naturally. To keep the racket facing the side fence when you prepare for your stroke - just feels awkward.
I am for adopting the natural "firing" position where the racket strings are facing the ground. Basically, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and Nadal's forehand firing position. If you think of this position as the phrase "patting the dog," then yes. Do not fight it. Just let the wrist and the forearm be.
What about the aerodynamic aspect? I might be wrong, but it seems to me that having the racket face parallel to the ground for as long as possible will reduce aerodynamic drag, and therefore, increase racket head speed at contact point.
Great video. I love the fact that you are trying to simplify the stroke as a teacher. The hardest part for myself or any recreational player for that matter, is consistency. I have always loved Andre Agassi’s groundstrokes. So simple, effective, and repeatable. Why do you think that they don’t teach his type of swing mechanics? The stroke still produced plenty of topspin to keep the ball in play and was so simple in its execution.
Thanks for the comment. Agassi isn’t “throwing” the racket as much as some players today so he doesn’t generate as much power. He could take it earlier though which can have the same effect. But there’s a lot of weird stuff happening in tennis coaching today, and I don’t have all the answers as to why.
@@TomAllsopp yeah, with the "new" swing mechanics that are being taught I always find that your margin of error in terms of being able to control the racquet face is so slim, it produces tons of mishits and lack of control.
hi Tom, in regards to your strings not facing the floor (obviously its a nice and clean technique) but is this much easier with an eastern grip? ie for someone with a semi-western grip, would it be bit uncomfortable to keep it straight throughout the backswing or would you still recommend it despite being SW or even between a SW and western? thank u
Hi..I agree with you with certain things ..Unfortunately in these days everyone wants and think can be or is an tennis Coach because they saw some tennis live or on youtube ..The worse thing is when some Coaches they wants copy some style but they have no clue about what they are doing and very less Coaches see real mistake or things are wrong on their or specific players ..They work of Fabric masive productions style.First and last is the same and we are going to sell them..Everyone is different .Certain rule you must follow thats normal..each Car must have fuel and you must start before you are able to drive. I gues you know what I mean but after you cant drive with every car smae speed or street and so on..
I've been wrestling with this recently. I've spent the last year or so removing this position from my stroke and it has seemed to help. In the last month or so my forehand has seemed to decline and I was wondering if maybe I should return to my "pat the dog" ways, but your video confirms to me that I should not. Thanks and subbed!
@@TomAllsopp I think YT lets me post links? Here's 2 videos from my channel, the first is w/o PTD, the 2nd is with PTD (from 2 years ago) 1. ua-cam.com/video/JNhrIgsLO38/v-deo.html 2. ua-cam.com/video/1xIEEMIZtI4/v-deo.html (EDIT: link 2 was weird, here is a better one: ua-cam.com/video/1xIEEMIZtI4/v-deo.html )
...good video... not sure if pat or tap the dog is correct form, or if the take back should have a specific form... or the difference between WTA vs ATP forehand like I see UA-cam posts talking about... whatever works for you and is within reason of what a forehand should be I guess ...?
Thanks. Yes it doesn’t need to be as specific as some coaches make it. A lot of these things need to happen naturally, and will with a solid understanding of what a forehand is. Women and men do hit different and for reasons I intend to address soon. Stay tuned
Agree...for most of us average players PTD just creates problems. In fact fact the modern forehand is tough for a lot of players,whereas the forehand you illustrate is much more simple with less to go wrong. I think a lot of the PTD has to do with grip as well. Federer had a more traditional forehand and at some point he changed it....no one ever talks about it. I believe it was a trade off for more power. For him it was worth it ....but he is Federer. Really enjoy your videos.
@@TomAllsopp Tried supinating today on the court and shots were flying off racket.One thing to mention is that after contact it turns into pronation correct?
@@TomAllsopp Fed had the same problem, still somehow has, that's why he was constantly framing his shots for quite a while. I know this sounds funny, but I think it's sounds more funny that at the beginning of his career he wasn' t doing the pat the dog thing and playing with a semiwestern grip
Agreed. Done both myself and can clearly see the difference. Nothing wrong with not closing the racquet but think you'll have more control and flatter shots.
you wont get as much power when you dont use it. Its obvious not every shot is gonna be exactly like the exact tennis stroke but if you want to achieve elite status, you must use that advantage. For beginner and intermediate club players, you can teach it your way. i have a hard time to believe youre better then Rick Macci as a coach lol
Makes so much sense . Wonder how this patting the dog came about in the coaching world . Surely coaches knew that it was a product of the swing , a natural movement , if it occurred , not something you have to break down and teach and cause confusion . No wonder why every junior you see on a tennis court has the exact same forehand as every other junior . Cookie cutter style that takes out all the Intuitive biomechanical expression of a player.
Rick Macci teaches PTD in one of his instructional videos. I mostly agree with what you said. It's important to keep in mind that the snapshots of key reference positions during the swing are products of a fluid motion and they occur while the body and racquet are in motion. One can't and shouldn't micromanage elements of the swing and giving extra emphasis to certain reference positions can disrupt and distort the "shape" of the swing. However, those reference positions are critical as teaching and diagnostic tools. A good swing is identified by whether you actually hit those "poses" during the swing. If a student just isn't getting into those positions during the swing, then those elements have to be isolated, emphasized, engrained into muscle memory and reintegrated into the entire motion which can take some time. The reference positions are like points on a graph. At first, the easiest and fastest way to connect them is by drawing straight lines and really concentrating on hitting them. With time you learn to connect them precisely with curves or splines instead and only then will the end result be fluidity.
The problem is your players that use pat the dog technique, don’t do a very good job technique wise it takes years to get it right.The non dominate hand used as a force multiplier with the hips to whip it across their body (centrical force)and then let the forehand follow the kinetic chain can be very lethal shot, if done right.
If you don’t pat the dog you won’t be able to get those acute angles the Roger gets with force and consistency. Plus a not pat the dog also forces players to over hit the ball hitting too long compared to a pat the dog style the emphases a closed racquet after impact to cause the tennis ball to drop into the court. Just my very careful opinion and there is a reason Federer uses it over and over again.
I found the best way to teach anyone to play tennis is not to teach them positions at all, because once that's in their head, it's like inception. That's all they'll be thinking about instead of working on the technique and follow through.
Great video, I tried this and the improved my margin of error on mishits, and also I could easily hit flatter shot with this advice. One thing I noticed is the loop of the ball is a little bit different than the pat the dog preparation, not saying it's bad but looks different than what I used to, and also I could time the forehand better on faster and deep balls. Great advice, thanks.
Another great video, Tom. It's interesting that if you look at this video: ua-cam.com/video/gCW7hTITWic/v-deo.html, you see the girl in the background really pausing the motion to pat the dog. Without knowing the context, it's a bit unfair to criticise it (she could just be in the process of fixing a bad habit), but one hopes that swing will be smoothed out in future.
I watch all your videos, wouldn't that "pat the dog" position be related with how to do you grip the racket? I think Djokovic is using more like an Western Grip or even more extreme?
I am not in favour of 'Pat the Dog' because I see it as an incorrect analysis of a portion of the swing path that for the pros - as you point out: 1) is generally part a fluid motion and 2) is not part of every swing. But there are a couple of other reasons why we might see it 'emphasized' in the pros: 3) it can be part of additional loading and extension in preparation for explosive uncoiling - Rafa does this - in effect it gives a longer 'pull' on the racquet before ball contact allowing more acceleration of the racquet head towards the ball, but also rotational acceleration of the racquet head to create topspin; and 4) as part of the modern ATP 'prep' position, the elbow is lifted very high (Zverev often has his elbow at ear level) while the shoulders rotate 90 degrees. It is much easier to lower the hitting arm into the 'slot' for a low bounce, than to have to lift higher for a high bounce. Thus for some shots, there can appear to be a more extended 'Pat the Dog' phase because the hitting hand is being lowered more during the early phase of the swing.
Note that, to the untrained eye, the combination of the high elbow lift and shoulder rotation makes it appear as if the racquet is taken back. However, the lift can be accomplished as a very simple motion - just lifting your elbow and keeping a relaxed wrist (the lift is often aided by the non-hitting hand), so that, with a western grip, the racquet weight rests on your thumb and the hitting face of the racquet points out (the normal points out) more towards the side fence. With a high elbow, the racquet shaft can end up close to parallel to the ground. This lift and turn allows the player to decouple the 'prep' from the swing (sometimes I prefer the term 'strike'), instead of the player needing to develop a fluid take back into swing - this fluid take back into a big loopy swing is very common in the French forehand technique, if you have ever been coached in France - much better to decouple the prep and the 'strike' by keeping it simple and compact.
From the 'prep' position, in order to react quickly to the ball (develop the shortest swing path with the highest racquet head speed - think Kyrgios or Fognini), we want to initiate the racquet head rotation around the rotational center of mass (COM), which means the 'hand path' must form an arc at least as big as the circle around the racquet COM, and by increasing the radius of the arc, we can drag the racquet mass and begin to initiate the racquet head 'whip'. It is far more optimal for the racquet head to take a 3D path through space that brings the COM of the racquet close to the center of our core rotation, shortening the lever arm so we can accelerate our core as fast as possible and rotate the racquet around our core and then towards the ball. This allows the core rotation to be extremely rapid - in effect a 'flip' of the shoulders 90 degrees to an open position - almost always aided by an aggressive 'pull' of the non hitting arm and elbow to the side, also shortening the lever arm. The 'flip' of the shoulders also loads the pectorals and core muscles, and there must be angular 'room' for that to happen, impossible if you have used it all up in early racquet takeback (why you must resist the 'need' to load during the prep by reaching the racquet back). Again, when properly executed it feels like a whipping action, but now we are both whipping the racquet head in rotation around it's COM, and the racquet COM around our core axis of rotation. The 'optimal' 3D path varies, but in general brings the racquet head close to your hip. In it's natural swing path with a loose wrist, the racquet face can point towards the corner of the fence diagonally behind you (the 'Pat the Dog' position), the back fence (as advocated here), the ground, or not quite pointing at the ground, all just moments in the 3D path towards 'striking' the ball. Although a loose wrist is important, it is an 'athletic' looseness. Pro players have varying amounts of 'wristiness' in their forehands.
I find it useful to think of the swing or 'strike' as a two-beat move - after getting into the prep position (hence the prep is not part of the two-beat 'strike'). It is a very explosive move (watch Theim), more like a martial arts 'strike', so it is very helpful to exhale in two beats "Uh-huh" (or you can scream a Sharapova). The first beat is a complex dance move which you imagine as the core rotation, the shoulder 'flip' mentioned above. But as part of the dance move, your hand is moving along a path in 3D space (in golf, it is often referred to as the 'hub path' because a golf club, like a tennis racquet, has a fixed length, so the pivot at the wrist is like the hub of a wheel - it's easier to imagine your hand than your wrist, and more effective when controlling the racquet face into contact with the ball). So far, the most useful imagery I have found is to imagine your hand making a big fish hook, starting at the point, so your hand makes an arc that straightens out into ball contact. The initial 'circular' arc is initiated with the core rotation (although you can loop into it) on the "Uh" part of the exhale. With an athletic loose grip and wrist, you can create the feeling of an almost instantaneous initiation by pressing your thumb knuckle of your hitting hand using a slight wrist rotation - it gets the racquet rotating around its COM faster, and launches the racquet head into the 3D path. At the same moment (although slightly delaying gives you more flexibility to time your shot, or in situations where you have looped in through a continuous prep, so no 'thumb' moment, you pull in your non hitting arm to initiate the shoulder flip. Simultaneously, while your shoulders are flipping, your elbow and hand are dropping - following the circular arc of the fish hook. The shoulder flip opens the arm angle, loading the pecs, while your lats are pulling your elbow down (sometimes more passively). This results in the supination position mentioned above, but more by result rather than intent. Now you extend your arm, allowing it to 'fling' away from your rotating core. The racquet head has pivoted to near your hip, close to the axis of rotation of your core, and becomes the end of the whip. You actively extend your arm towards the ball, which is the 'huh' part, which also gives you control over the timing of the second phase of the 'strike', ie the initial timing doesn't have to be perfect. And the initial timing is, ideally, decoupled from the prep (but, as explained above, doesn't have to be, eg service return).
It is important to understand that, ideally, we want the racquet head to 'whip' at the ball with very rapid rotation - often referred to as 'windshield wiper'. The rotation is a combination of 1) wrist rotation (imagine holding your elbow stationary - ideally this is passive, but an athletic wrist), 2) forearm rotation (imagine your forarm as the windshield wiper, so using your bicep - Nadal incorporates lots of this), 3) upper arm rotation (your pectoral and shoulder muscles are 'pulling' your arm across - a longer windshield wiper), 4) rotation of the shoulder socket - the head of the humerous rotating in the glenoid socket), 5) core rotation, and 6) legs and trunk extending upwards. All in all quite a few variables to play with and in a huge variety of amplitudes and relative timings. Your tennis instructor will always be able to pick one or two and get you to imagine them doing something different, or even encourage you to develop an awareness of some new sense of rotation. Some will say it's all in the legs, requiring a certain open stance, specific footwork, and an explosive initiation off the ground. But even pros who can hit this way can also initiate a hit while running, while dropping into a deep slide, or while already 2 feet up in the air (typically with splayed legs to provide a large moment of rotational inertia to 'unwind' against). Stance and footwork are essential, but I haven't discussed them at all in the above description. It is more important to figure out the two beat 'strike', which can be done on a skating rink in curling shoes (although it is much more effective with friction, loading into and out of rotation, using legs and hips).
But back to all those possibilities for rotating (whipping) the racquet head, and thinking about how to integrate them to make your 'strike' at the ball more robust, ie to give the biggest chance of success. There are three things we want to do to increase chance of success 1) recognize that we can't anticipate exactly where the ball will be in space when we connect the racquet head with the ball - there will be spin and air friction, variable bounce (ball compression, temperature, moisture, and ball fluff and wear), surface irregularities (undulations, moisture, lines, paint wear, clay provides even more variables), and we are always going to misjudge, so we want to adjust the racquet head to the actual position of the ball - this is easiest to do during the extension "huh" phase of the strike 2) recognize that we can't anticipate exactly the timing of the ball, or may 'jump' forward due to heavy topspin, or 'slide' forward due to backspin, no matter what, we are unlikely to have perfect timing, so we want to 'lengthen the hitting zone', which is also much easier to do during the extension "huh" phase of the strike, and 3) which is related to 2, decouple the timing, so that it is far less dependent on only a single moment of initiation, or some period of time when we vaguely commit to hit, hoping the timing will work out. Ideally, we want to give our brain a moment in time that we can trigger the intent to hit, which starts the dance move in motion, and then a second moment when we 'hit' the ball, hence the two-beat strike with the 'martial arts'-like "Uh-huh" exhalation.
I hope you know that the test about padding the dog biomikanically is proven to be most optimal forehand as to racquet head speed with the flip, which is only possible when the strings are pointing towards the ground and the head is above the hands. It gives more spin and speed and control etc. I believe more in scientific proof by Rick Macci and Brian Gordon that your way of teaching. Even small kids can get much power without strength by this model.
Yes, I understand why the best players end up in this position. I also understand why it causes problems for a lot of players when they focus on this position. And I don’t agree that it’s the best way of teaching small kids.
@@Tennishans1950 now that we know how to teach the scientifically proven best forehand I guess I can just hire anyone to work for me and pass this secret along. Sounds easy.
@@TomAllsopp You choose your model. I never understand why teachers cannot accept one model. We teachers confuse more than help when 4 teachers have 4 different models. That is why I prefer to listen to science. In every model there will always be some who cannot. I have taught for more than 40 years, and changed models several times until I started to listen to biomikanic tests. I do not say there is a wrong or right way, but a better way. There are too few who know the new stuff. They always know better. Copy the best and become the best teacher. It is easy to teach the new model if you know how. Your irony is not a good way to communicate. good luck
Thank you for this video. When I saw the pat the dog, I began focusing on it too much and almost making it a slowdown/stop point. Then I saw Del Potro who most pros argue has the best forehand of all time, and whom federer said people should try to copy instead of his, doesn't do the pat the dog
IMHO, pat the dog, racket facing back-wall, racket facing slightly open , et al - are misleading and difficult to learn. Anything that doesn't come naturally with your swing, is detrimental to your muscle memory. If you don't do it consistently, your brain won't have anything to remember. The swing style and path should be a knee-jerk reaction once the ball crosses the net. Go back to basics if your swing is in dis-array. Do ball feeding and stop playing singles/doubles. Basic on top-sin is starting point of racket is lower than the finish point on contact, it's not rocket science. Power of your ball comes from your body and trunk and legs (not your arm). Contact point of racket head should be perpendicular to ball. If at contact, your string bed isn't perpendicular, then it's your timing that's wrong. Ball feeding will fix this. Find out what swing-type is most comfortable to you, experiment. Will it be a full take back swing? or compact? What grip is most comfortable? Eastern? Western? What grip pressure and swing path doesn't hurt ? is your tension too much on your strings? lessen it if it's painful to your elbow. Go below 50lbs on tension. Don't squeeze on your racket handle too much on contact. Now, once you are comfortable again and pain-free, then remember that swing style/path, AND DO THAT 10,000 times. Studies say that your muscle memory activates if you have done anything with that frequency (10k times). AND When your muscle memory is fixed and you don't have to think anymore on how to swing at the ball, you can go back playing, and discover that you'll be more focused on patterns of play on doubles or singles games, more than focusing on your swing.
I cant answer you that but the term was coined by Rick Macci which I'm sure you've heard off. He specifically made the difference between "tap the dog" and "pat the dog" because of the proper wrist position.
i dissagree... and agree... what is important is the lag.. also you are right.. it comes from full fluid motion.. all of the great players have compact strokes.. very short take back.. however every good stoke is effortless and has a natural lag... what is important is footwork... unit turn.. compact take back and the lag...
I agree with the most of the part.. However pat the dog position happens naturally to generate top spin and power so it happends with out thinking .. Its part of the stroke that happends naturally i believe...
Tiafpho has a weird take back... Federer .. Short compact take back.. Djokovic .. Compact take back.. Nadal.. Short compact take back... I could keep going...
It is not that pat the dog is wrong, I just think emphasising it as something for every player to focus on is problematic, similar to the racket drop on the serve it should happen naturally. I've seen a lot of players suffer from being stuck in the PTD position and losing fluidity. Obviously grips play a role and eastern will PTD less. Being able to NOT PTD (like Djokovic returning) is massively important so don't get caught up with all the PTD nonsense. - Tom Allsopp
@@Powercise1 it’s really not that complicated. It’s a very natural position to get into for most players.
Always interesting to watch and to listen. Agree on all ponts. Would be great to talk for a couple of minutes via Skype? Thanks, Alex
02:30 Good point about Agassi's strings not pointing to the ground as is found with Djokovic. I think I understand the reason for that. Djokovic uses a more *abbreviated* backswing. Hence, the 5 0'clock Pat The Dog position. Whereas, Agassi uses a less compact, more circular backswing and hence no reason for strings to go face down in abbreviated Pat The Dog position.
But I don't understand why Agassi's strings never point to the back fence as Djokovic does. Both Agassi and Djokovic use roughly the same SW grip. What is going on there? Why doesn't Agassi's strings point to the back fence? Is that also an important distinction?
It's not that it's wrong it' s that it's a result of doing things right. Consciously doing it often screws up the proper kinetic chain. You have it absolutely right Tom.
6:18 - turning the hips, great advice coach! Here's some pretty awesome advice that took me 12 years to figure out, to my fellow club level tennis players from across the world:
While many, if not pretty much ALL, tennis coaches teach turning the SHOULDERS at the START of the forehand stroke, please don't listen to that, it's a terrible DISTRACTION and it happens later in the stroke automatically just before you start to turn back into the shot. It's NOT the shoulders that are doing the turning, it's the HIPS!
When watching slow motion footage of PROs, STOP looking at their shoulders and focus instead on their HIPS (they are - via your legs and core - turning your WHOLE UPPER body, including the shoulders first back and then later into the shot). You will see that they turn in PARALLEL at the UNIT turn stage, i.e. the beginning. If you get his bit wrong right at the START, everything else will be off later as well.
In tennis you need to use your ENTIRE body, legs/hips are THE KEY here, without them you will NEVER get beyond pushing the ball back and forth and that's where many coaches want you trapped FOREVER, so that you keep coming back to them for more PAID lessons/courses ;)
Once you understand that the unit turn needs to be INITIATED by the hips, EVERYHTING changes. You start to SUBCONSCIOUSLY, i.e. without thinking, use your LEGS, that turn your HIPS, which turn your shoulders, i.e. KINETIC CHAIN but on AUTO-PILOT.
That way you stay perfectly balanced, you automatically (without any additional thinking) engage your core and your POWER and consistency will grow exponentially. That's the KEY to a PRO forehand that NO ONE is telling you. I wonder why?!
Once you have this down, you will FINALLY have a solid FOUNDATION and you can then start adding all the peripheral bits that everyone is teaching you here on UA-cam.
Be sure to drop a LIKE on this comment if it helped you out, so that MORE people get to see it!
Thanks great information
Please hit like and comment to motivate me to make these videos :-)
Never quit making videos! My game has improved faster than it ever has since finding your channel. The best tennis channel byfarbyfarbyfar
Fishy Realms thanks mate!! Keep commenting. UA-cams algorithm keeps mugging me off because I don’t post enough.
Now that you mention it UA-cam's algorithm is working against you. Your videos are concise and get to the point which is awesome for your viewers and keeps your videos at great quality. Unfortunately youtube tends to reward channels that talk longer and deliver whatever they're trying to say at the end of a 20 minute video. Regardless, I really appreciate what you are doing and want you to feel awesome for giving us such great content!
I'm sure you already knew this btw. Was just news to me
Fishy Realms I think you’re right. Thanks for the support!
Great analysis, Tom. Love your videos!
Thanks mate!
This video makes sense and comports with a lot of things I’ve been learning from taking lessons.
There’s a difference between something naturally happening, and the player forcing something to happen.
Very good video! I used to try to tap the dog (willingly). It was a fair shot, as I involved my wrist, had lots of spin, but not so much power and went quite high over the net and landed deep. My problem was I could not hit angles (because of the high trajectory) and had some timing issues (as keeping the racquet still in "tap the dog" took away momentum and speed). Now my shot is simpler, I just turn, take the racquet back and just swing and throw it at the ball (looks a lot like yours). It's more powerful, has spin and I can hit better angles. All good! :)
I also felt like patting the dog was a superficial movement but still was trying to implement in every stroke. Will try this thing when racket facing back fence and then just a swing, Thanks!
Just found this great article. I so agree that dropping on edge is way easier and simpler than patting the dog. Bottom line, achieving the racquet lag angle, racquet angle vs forearm angle ideally around 90% at deepest point, is what is most important. I agree going straight into supranation and somewhat bypassing the pat the dog, is the simpler path. Fed, like Novak, does the same thing on forehand service returns.
Quality instruction dude. So nice to see someone prepared to go against the modern day noise!
on Djokovic didn't face the ground because he was on a serve return, when you are returning the serve is more about block and direct so we don't really need top spin. Agassi has a really long backswing and his shots don't have a lot of top spin. That is more for creating top spin and a player definitely needs to understand because a tennis players has to be able to adjust the backswing and the swing according to the ball we are receiving and/or sending.
Thank you for the tip and your analysis. Hopefully, following this advice will simplify my swing as well.
This video really helps take out a large portion of doubt I have on my forehand. Thank you!
I agree totally ,the stroke should be fluid rather that focusing to much on the back swing ,from experience I feel this is to tricky for a beginner better focus on good shoulder turn ,proper spacing and rotation which are crucial for a great stroke
Yet another fantastic video! It's great to see your body of work cumulate on forehand technique. This is helping me simplify and strengthen my forehand. Many thanks!!
Am a coach myself from Mauritius Island and i totally agree with you. Makes sense. Good job
I agree this shouldn't be taught to beginners. But it's a natural progression for a lot of advanced players. They start adding more levers to the forehand, and you see a lot if not most of the ATP pros utilizing this. Most of them probably weren't "taught" to do this. And a lot of the innovations you see today, standard procedure, wasn't because instructors thought of it, but because kids who grew up never playing with wood rackets naturally started doing little things to add more power and action to their shots. In general, instructors stand in the way of change, they're normally quite dogmatic about what is proper technique, but it's the players themselves who innovate proving what works in a "survival of the fittest" way. Open stances, western grips, swinging volleys, etc, were all controversial techniques.
This is an excellent point. I agree with your analysis. The "pat the dog" position is just a momentary position in the full swing. What pros do the deliberate stop-and-pat-the-dog technique?
Sifo Dyas Stan Wawrinka is the biggest “offender” of this technique in my opinion.
Tom that's so right. I've always beleived it was just a myth. I love how you destroy fake conventions. Please keep sharing your knowledge
only thing fake is his take on the pat the dog...there is nothing about pat the dog that suggest the racket needs to stop squarely facing string to the ground. I love how when some don't understand something correctly, they destroy their strawman as a myth.
@@chtomlin I would say that pat the dog is quite unnatural anyway. It's actually what Rick Macci seems to also refer to, making a difference between pat the dog and tap the dog. Pat the dog is actually staying with the strings completely parallel to the ground; tap the dog doesn't get completely parallel and it's what most of the top players do
@@tennis9281 except pat the dog was never considered having the strings exactly parallel...that is a strawman to attack
I have been saying to my students that the Modern Forehand is very similar to the THROWING MOTION on the Serve. And, the leg extension initiates the racquet drop and flip. I loved the video! Thanks I’m 35-year USPTA Elite, USTA HP, ex-ATP trainer, and trying to teach modern methods correctly.
I know it’s been three years but 1. I disagree the forehand is more similar to a punch then a throw. A throw can be used just with the arm where as a punch gets the shoulder, body, and hips engaged. The serve also isn’t a throwing motion. If you watch former professional pitchers try to serve it looks different.
Excellent video !!!! Thanks for the content Tom . All the best Jamie
I think it’s interesting that some people keep the racquet in the pat the dog position as they swing forward (potentially leading to mishits?) but Djok, Fed and others actually immediately flip the racket into an open or on edge position as they start the forward part of the swing. I don’t do pat the dog but filming myself it seems I do on low balls without even thinking about it.
Simply, you don’t need a ”pat the dog -position” in your forehand but you need a fluid explosive motion from the ground up and lo and behold if you do it correctly with the optimal FORM & LOOSENESS there will be that ”position” and the ”lag”, especially if you swing the stick with some eastern grip variant like Fed & I.
Tsisipas didn't do it either earlier but he seems to be doing it this year. Anyone noticed?
Nice video as always Tom! How important is it for the strings to face the back fence during the backswing? My forehand trophy position is similar to Djokovic's one at 0:54 with my forearm and racquet face pointing towards the right. However, I accelerate forward from that position. From what I can see, I should continue with my shoulder turn until my racquet face points towards the back fence. I'm guessing this will give me more power. It'll be harder to time but it should be a better shot once I get used to it!
Sounds like you aren't coiling as much as you could. If you have time and want to generate more power see if you can load up more and your strings will likely point to the back fence.
Tom Allsopp thanks Tom, I’ll give it a shot!
I get the point and others have take about closed face or open face. What is often forgotten is the effect of the grip.
If Tom were to use his exact same stroke with a semi or full western grip the racket head will be closed
This is true. Grip matters. Pat the dog is still something that should just happen naturally. And seeing Djokovic not do it shows that it’s also relative to that shot and intentions.
Good stuff. Ain’t initially taught my daughter that “pat the dog” concert based on a popular UA-cam video. But I changed her take back about a year ago to a continuous loop, and she’s gotten much more control and easy power now.
My grip is semi-western and PTD comes naturally....It gives topspin
Exactly!
Nice video Tom,
I agree it has to be fluid and Natural and teaching pat the dog Will make it mechanical and causes tensionsin the hand.
Don’t you think the position of the racket is a natural consequence of the use of the elbow?
When a baseball pitcher leads with the elbow in the preparation the palm Will be down.
Agassi has a more Classic takeback with the racket first, while a lot of todays players lead with the elbow like a baseball pitcher.
This Will have consequences of how the racket dropshot and get to the pat the dog position or not.
In my opinion its quite the same principle with the serve.
Instead of lead with the edge of the frame, just throw the elbow upward.
Looking forward to your response.
Best, Paul
"throwing the arm" - I was born and raised on an island (Philippines), it's like throwing a flat stone into the sea such that it bounces twice or more, something like that. Yes, that's how my friend taught me how to hit a forehand.
Been gradually working my way through your videos as my time permits, Tom. Have to say you have the finest understanding of stroke biomechanics of any tennis coach I’ve ever heard; and an outstanding practical approach to teaching students how to make it work for them on an individual basis. Great stuff!
Tom, the last girl’s forehand before and after is impressive. With your guidance, Alan will gradually achieve a respectable forehand too.
Thanks! It’s already very respectable. But yes I’ll make him great.
I find when they bypass the "Pat the dog" piece of the stroke, it's because they've initiated the forward swing earlier in the loop.
This is pure gold. Congratz. Best advive on youtube
This video is the real deal. Great job!
Great explanation! This is a just a part of whole recket swing path.
A coach told me patting the dog leads to more topspin, is that an accurate statement? What should I be visualizing to achieve more spin, is it low to high + racquet head speed? Cheers!
pat the dog "position" is a transition point as the player supinates the forearm during the swing
Good analysis as always. Players that force the concept of 'pat the dog' tend to frame the ball more frequently for sure. Keep it simple and just let it happen as part of the full shape of the swing. As you also mentioned, it is not always necessary to close that racket face before contact. Great job at tweaking those forehands too 👍
Thanks, Chris, the first guy I showed that I worked with used to shank a lot because of not squaring the racket up.
Hi Tom, very appreciate this. Does it also work for high forehand-Balls? I think it‘s a bit more difficult to supinate. Would you show us the motion with the high forehand? Thank‘s
Pat the dog happens more on low balls, on high balls its more important to just supinate and not lower the racket to that position... assuming you want to not hit a lot of topspin.
The wrist and the forearm, if left alone, would naturally end up positioning your palm and the racket face horizontally. That is simply how we are put together. By the time the racquet gets to the point of striking the ball, it will reorient itself naturally. To keep the racket facing the side fence when you prepare for your stroke - just feels awkward.
Are you for or against patting the dog? I’m not sure
I am for adopting the natural "firing" position where the racket strings are facing the ground. Basically, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and Nadal's forehand firing position. If you think of this position as the phrase "patting the dog," then yes. Do not fight it. Just let the wrist and the forearm be.
Dihos yes you should naturally and smoothly pass right through it like the players you just mentioned, not overly emphasize that position. Thanks
But there’s also times it naturally doesn’t happen, on Djokovic’s return and on mine and Agassi forehand. We haven’t forced anything.
What about the aerodynamic aspect?
I might be wrong, but it seems to me that having the racket face parallel to the ground for as long as possible will reduce aerodynamic drag, and therefore, increase racket head speed at contact point.
They don’t swing at the ball with the frame. I don’t think aerodynamics are relevant
Very good work!
yeah. i think i have this problem. i was trying pat that damn dog on all my fh and I feel I hit more inconsistently now more than ever.
yes squaring up the racket is really important so don't let pat the dog hinder that.
TPA tennis wdym by squaring up the racket
Great video. I love the fact that you are trying to simplify the stroke as a teacher. The hardest part for myself or any recreational player for that matter, is consistency. I have always loved Andre Agassi’s groundstrokes. So simple, effective, and repeatable. Why do you think that they don’t teach his type of swing mechanics? The stroke still produced plenty of topspin to keep the ball in play and was so simple in its execution.
Thanks for the comment. Agassi isn’t “throwing” the racket as much as some players today so he doesn’t generate as much power. He could take it earlier though which can have the same effect. But there’s a lot of weird stuff happening in tennis coaching today, and I don’t have all the answers as to why.
@@TomAllsopp yeah, with the "new" swing mechanics that are being taught I always find that your margin of error in terms of being able to control the racquet face is so slim, it produces tons of mishits and lack of control.
I watched tons of videos but can’t remember ever heard about supinating the arm on the forehand. Can you elaborate a bit on this?
pls confirm ...to effect the forward swing, supinate forearm (rotate clock-wise) and square up the string bed with the torso turn
Sounds complicated but could work
What is the cost of doing a video session with you?
$199 first month. $99 every month after that. You can send unlimited videos and I respond within 2 days. First month includes a Zoom session.
Sorry for my confusion but when you say supanate the arm can you explain that? Is that to pull it forward?
hi Tom, in regards to your strings not facing the floor (obviously its a nice and clean technique) but is this much easier with an eastern grip? ie for someone with a semi-western grip, would it be bit uncomfortable to keep it straight throughout the backswing or would you still recommend it despite being SW or even between a SW and western? thank u
I just pinned the response to your comment to the top of the page. Hope it helps.
Thanks Tom. Is 8.5 yrs too young to start getting a video analysis? I'm a lost cause but wanted my son to be on the right track
TIM no, definitely not if you’re involved in it. There’s a lot for me to share with you about what’s important in their development.
Is your stroke similar to WTA forehand? Or Del Potro forehand? The take back looks similar, I like it
Hi..I agree with you with certain things ..Unfortunately in these days everyone wants and think can be or is an tennis Coach because they saw some tennis live or on youtube ..The worse thing is when some Coaches they wants copy some style but they have no clue about what they are doing and very less Coaches see real mistake or things are wrong on their or specific players ..They work of Fabric masive productions style.First and last is the same and we are going to sell them..Everyone is different .Certain rule you must follow thats normal..each Car must have fuel and you must start before you are able to drive. I gues you know what I mean but after you cant drive with every car smae speed or street and so on..
On the pat the dog you can get injure the tendon I think!¡ What's your opinion and why
I've been wrestling with this recently. I've spent the last year or so removing this position from my stroke and it has seemed to help. In the last month or so my forehand has seemed to decline and I was wondering if maybe I should return to my "pat the dog" ways, but your video confirms to me that I should not.
Thanks and subbed!
Thanks mate. Send me a video and I’ll take a look at it
@@TomAllsopp I think YT lets me post links? Here's 2 videos from my channel, the first is w/o PTD, the 2nd is with PTD (from 2 years ago)
1. ua-cam.com/video/JNhrIgsLO38/v-deo.html
2. ua-cam.com/video/1xIEEMIZtI4/v-deo.html
(EDIT: link 2 was weird, here is a better one: ua-cam.com/video/1xIEEMIZtI4/v-deo.html )
Woops, didn't realize you had a website for this :-)
Does the grip play apart in how the racquet ‘appears’ in the stroke ?
Great insights!
...good video... not sure if pat or tap the dog is correct form, or if the take back should have a specific form... or the difference between WTA vs ATP forehand like I see UA-cam posts talking about... whatever works for you and is within reason of what a forehand should be I guess ...?
Thanks. Yes it doesn’t need to be as specific as some coaches make it. A lot of these things need to happen naturally, and will with a solid understanding of what a forehand is. Women and men do hit different and for reasons I intend to address soon. Stay tuned
Agree...for most of us average players PTD just creates problems. In fact fact the modern forehand is tough for a lot of players,whereas the forehand you illustrate is much more simple with less to go wrong. I think a lot of the PTD has to do with grip as well. Federer had a more traditional forehand and at some point he changed it....no one ever talks about it. I believe it was a trade off for more power. For him it was worth it ....but he is Federer. Really enjoy your videos.
is there active supination int the forehand when the strings face the backfence or is it a question of the grip ?
It’s just a natural effective way to load up. A baseball pitcher would have his hand pointing back as he loaded.
You are right friend it is not necessary to pat the dog many pro players don't do it like Delpotro, Halep, and others.
Just wondering why you want the racket to face the fence.Is it to get more supination on the forward swing.
It’s just a natural hand and arm position as you load up.
@@TomAllsopp Tried supinating today on the court and shots were flying off racket.One thing to mention is that after contact it turns into pronation correct?
Coach Tom, do you live in the SF Bay area? Some courts look like Cupertino
Yes I’m in Cupertino
It was a good video but the girl in the end is indeed patting the dog but strings more to the fence because of the grip(same as djokovic and thiem)
Thanks for the comment. The point of the video is not to exclude the pat the dog but rather that it needs to happen naturally.
SO MUCH YES!!! also, i have a cameo appearance in the nitzan clip haha
Thanks mate!
what do you mean by supinate the arm?
Rotate the arm clockwise
i think a good perspective. i tried to add in pat the dog.. made my swing even more late lol.
Yes you won’t be the first or last haha
@@TomAllsopp Fed had the same problem, still somehow has, that's why he was constantly framing his shots for quite a while. I know this sounds funny, but I think it's sounds more funny that at the beginning of his career he wasn' t doing the pat the dog thing and playing with a semiwestern grip
Great Tom! I'm glad to see you speak out against this myth...
fantastic tip
Would you say Zverev stroke would be a bad stroke to copy based off this video
No. Why would it be?
TPA tennis it seems like his stroke is in the Pat the dog position the whole time
Aren Godinez it looks great to me. Doesn’t get stuck there. Very natural
By going through the pat the dog position you will get more topspin in my opinion.
Sure. Go through it and don’t get stuck in it.
Agreed. Done both myself and can clearly see the difference. Nothing wrong with not closing the racquet but think you'll have more control and flatter shots.
Do you think that Djokovic's forehand is the best to imitate?
It’s pretty standard as a model. Similar to Nitzan, the guy at the end of the video.
It appears your grip is more towards eastern meaning that pat the dog is less prominant
Correct
@@TomAllsopp I do agree that teaching kids to find that position and remaining static is a recipe for disaster
you wont get as much power when you dont use it. Its obvious not every shot is gonna be exactly like the exact tennis stroke but if you want to achieve elite status, you must use that advantage. For beginner and intermediate club players, you can teach it your way. i have a hard time to believe youre better then Rick Macci as a coach lol
Makes so much sense . Wonder how this patting the dog came about in the coaching world . Surely coaches knew that it was a product of the swing , a natural movement , if it occurred , not something you have to break down and teach and cause confusion . No wonder why every junior you see on a tennis court has the exact same forehand as every other junior . Cookie cutter style that takes out all the Intuitive biomechanical expression of a player.
Rick Macci teaches PTD in one of his instructional videos. I mostly agree with what you said. It's important to keep in mind that the snapshots of key reference positions during the swing are products of a fluid motion and they occur while the body and racquet are in motion. One can't and shouldn't micromanage elements of the swing and giving extra emphasis to certain reference positions can disrupt and distort the "shape" of the swing.
However, those reference positions are critical as teaching and diagnostic tools. A good swing is identified by whether you actually hit those "poses" during the swing. If a student just isn't getting into those positions during the swing, then those elements have to be isolated, emphasized, engrained into muscle memory and reintegrated into the entire motion which can take some time.
The reference positions are like points on a graph. At first, the easiest and fastest way to connect them is by drawing straight lines and really concentrating on hitting them. With time you learn to connect them precisely with curves or splines instead and only then will the end result be fluidity.
The problem is your players that use pat the dog technique, don’t do a very good job technique wise it takes years to get it right.The non dominate hand used as a force multiplier with the hips to whip it across their body (centrical force)and then let the forehand follow the kinetic chain can be very lethal shot, if done right.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. But thanks for the comment.
If you don’t pat the dog you won’t be able to get those acute angles the Roger gets with force and consistency. Plus a not pat the dog also forces players to over hit the ball hitting too long compared to a pat the dog style the emphases a closed racquet after impact to cause the tennis ball to drop into the court. Just my very careful opinion and there is a reason Federer uses it over and over again.
@@HT__00 You failed to get the point of the video. I don't teach people to do it, but I don't tell my players not to do it. Watch again.
Dead on mister. Keep em coming.
Agree. Also pat-the-dog’s timing is harder for non-experienced players.
I think encouraging the dog pat encourages a push instead of a throw.
yes often it does
Tom, when i try to suppinate my forearm and use the wrist watch idea, my balls sail long and high. How do I fix this?
Aim for the net and get back to me
I don't think the role of supination is discussed enough
I agree. Too many people messing with dogs
The racket angle to the ground is decided by grip, right?
not purely
I found the best way to teach anyone to play tennis is not to teach them positions at all, because once that's in their head, it's like inception. That's all they'll be thinking about instead of working on the technique and follow through.
Great video
best video i´ve ever seen (tennis)
perfect explanations
If you actually focused on dropping the racket，you would have a federer forehand。
Great video, I tried this and the improved my margin of error on mishits, and also I could easily hit flatter shot with this advice. One thing I noticed is the loop of the ball is a little bit different than the pat the dog preparation, not saying it's bad but looks different than what I used to, and also I could time the forehand better on faster and deep balls. Great advice, thanks.
Awesome. Thats great to hear.
Another great video, Tom. It's interesting that if you look at this video: ua-cam.com/video/gCW7hTITWic/v-deo.html, you see the girl in the background really pausing the motion to pat the dog. Without knowing the context, it's a bit unfair to criticise it (she could just be in the process of fixing a bad habit), but one hopes that swing will be smoothed out in future.
I watch all your videos, wouldn't that "pat the dog" position be related with how to do you grip the racket? I think Djokovic is using more like an Western Grip or even more extreme?
It plays a role but Djokovic has a semi western grip which is pretty standard these days
@maccajoe Yes, forcing these things trying to replicate the pros can cause problems. Good comment.
saigonbond Djokovic has a western? False haha
@saigonbond this has been debated a lot. The common consensus is that Djokovic uses a semi-western but is very close to western
What about patting the cat?
is it like patting the dog except lower? sounds pro.
I am not in favour of 'Pat the Dog' because I see it as an incorrect analysis of a portion of the swing path that for the pros - as you point out: 1) is generally part a fluid motion and 2) is not part of every swing. But there are a couple of other reasons why we might see it 'emphasized' in the pros: 3) it can be part of additional loading and extension in preparation for explosive uncoiling - Rafa does this - in effect it gives a longer 'pull' on the racquet before ball contact allowing more acceleration of the racquet head towards the ball, but also rotational acceleration of the racquet head to create topspin; and 4) as part of the modern ATP 'prep' position, the elbow is lifted very high (Zverev often has his elbow at ear level) while the shoulders rotate 90 degrees. It is much easier to lower the hitting arm into the 'slot' for a low bounce, than to have to lift higher for a high bounce. Thus for some shots, there can appear to be a more extended 'Pat the Dog' phase because the hitting hand is being lowered more during the early phase of the swing.
Note that, to the untrained eye, the combination of the high elbow lift and shoulder rotation makes it appear as if the racquet is taken back. However, the lift can be accomplished as a very simple motion - just lifting your elbow and keeping a relaxed wrist (the lift is often aided by the non-hitting hand), so that, with a western grip, the racquet weight rests on your thumb and the hitting face of the racquet points out (the normal points out) more towards the side fence. With a high elbow, the racquet shaft can end up close to parallel to the ground. This lift and turn allows the player to decouple the 'prep' from the swing (sometimes I prefer the term 'strike'), instead of the player needing to develop a fluid take back into swing - this fluid take back into a big loopy swing is very common in the French forehand technique, if you have ever been coached in France - much better to decouple the prep and the 'strike' by keeping it simple and compact.
From the 'prep' position, in order to react quickly to the ball (develop the shortest swing path with the highest racquet head speed - think Kyrgios or Fognini), we want to initiate the racquet head rotation around the rotational center of mass (COM), which means the 'hand path' must form an arc at least as big as the circle around the racquet COM, and by increasing the radius of the arc, we can drag the racquet mass and begin to initiate the racquet head 'whip'. It is far more optimal for the racquet head to take a 3D path through space that brings the COM of the racquet close to the center of our core rotation, shortening the lever arm so we can accelerate our core as fast as possible and rotate the racquet around our core and then towards the ball. This allows the core rotation to be extremely rapid - in effect a 'flip' of the shoulders 90 degrees to an open position - almost always aided by an aggressive 'pull' of the non hitting arm and elbow to the side, also shortening the lever arm. The 'flip' of the shoulders also loads the pectorals and core muscles, and there must be angular 'room' for that to happen, impossible if you have used it all up in early racquet takeback (why you must resist the 'need' to load during the prep by reaching the racquet back). Again, when properly executed it feels like a whipping action, but now we are both whipping the racquet head in rotation around it's COM, and the racquet COM around our core axis of rotation. The 'optimal' 3D path varies, but in general brings the racquet head close to your hip. In it's natural swing path with a loose wrist, the racquet face can point towards the corner of the fence diagonally behind you (the 'Pat the Dog' position), the back fence (as advocated here), the ground, or not quite pointing at the ground, all just moments in the 3D path towards 'striking' the ball. Although a loose wrist is important, it is an 'athletic' looseness. Pro players have varying amounts of 'wristiness' in their forehands.
I find it useful to think of the swing or 'strike' as a two-beat move - after getting into the prep position (hence the prep is not part of the two-beat 'strike'). It is a very explosive move (watch Theim), more like a martial arts 'strike', so it is very helpful to exhale in two beats "Uh-huh" (or you can scream a Sharapova). The first beat is a complex dance move which you imagine as the core rotation, the shoulder 'flip' mentioned above. But as part of the dance move, your hand is moving along a path in 3D space (in golf, it is often referred to as the 'hub path' because a golf club, like a tennis racquet, has a fixed length, so the pivot at the wrist is like the hub of a wheel - it's easier to imagine your hand than your wrist, and more effective when controlling the racquet face into contact with the ball). So far, the most useful imagery I have found is to imagine your hand making a big fish hook, starting at the point, so your hand makes an arc that straightens out into ball contact. The initial 'circular' arc is initiated with the core rotation (although you can loop into it) on the "Uh" part of the exhale. With an athletic loose grip and wrist, you can create the feeling of an almost instantaneous initiation by pressing your thumb knuckle of your hitting hand using a slight wrist rotation - it gets the racquet rotating around its COM faster, and launches the racquet head into the 3D path. At the same moment (although slightly delaying gives you more flexibility to time your shot, or in situations where you have looped in through a continuous prep, so no 'thumb' moment, you pull in your non hitting arm to initiate the shoulder flip. Simultaneously, while your shoulders are flipping, your elbow and hand are dropping - following the circular arc of the fish hook. The shoulder flip opens the arm angle, loading the pecs, while your lats are pulling your elbow down (sometimes more passively). This results in the supination position mentioned above, but more by result rather than intent. Now you extend your arm, allowing it to 'fling' away from your rotating core. The racquet head has pivoted to near your hip, close to the axis of rotation of your core, and becomes the end of the whip. You actively extend your arm towards the ball, which is the 'huh' part, which also gives you control over the timing of the second phase of the 'strike', ie the initial timing doesn't have to be perfect. And the initial timing is, ideally, decoupled from the prep (but, as explained above, doesn't have to be, eg service return).
It is important to understand that, ideally, we want the racquet head to 'whip' at the ball with very rapid rotation - often referred to as 'windshield wiper'. The rotation is a combination of 1) wrist rotation (imagine holding your elbow stationary - ideally this is passive, but an athletic wrist), 2) forearm rotation (imagine your forarm as the windshield wiper, so using your bicep - Nadal incorporates lots of this), 3) upper arm rotation (your pectoral and shoulder muscles are 'pulling' your arm across - a longer windshield wiper), 4) rotation of the shoulder socket - the head of the humerous rotating in the glenoid socket), 5) core rotation, and 6) legs and trunk extending upwards. All in all quite a few variables to play with and in a huge variety of amplitudes and relative timings. Your tennis instructor will always be able to pick one or two and get you to imagine them doing something different, or even encourage you to develop an awareness of some new sense of rotation. Some will say it's all in the legs, requiring a certain open stance, specific footwork, and an explosive initiation off the ground. But even pros who can hit this way can also initiate a hit while running, while dropping into a deep slide, or while already 2 feet up in the air (typically with splayed legs to provide a large moment of rotational inertia to 'unwind' against). Stance and footwork are essential, but I haven't discussed them at all in the above description. It is more important to figure out the two beat 'strike', which can be done on a skating rink in curling shoes (although it is much more effective with friction, loading into and out of rotation, using legs and hips).
But back to all those possibilities for rotating (whipping) the racquet head, and thinking about how to integrate them to make your 'strike' at the ball more robust, ie to give the biggest chance of success. There are three things we want to do to increase chance of success 1) recognize that we can't anticipate exactly where the ball will be in space when we connect the racquet head with the ball - there will be spin and air friction, variable bounce (ball compression, temperature, moisture, and ball fluff and wear), surface irregularities (undulations, moisture, lines, paint wear, clay provides even more variables), and we are always going to misjudge, so we want to adjust the racquet head to the actual position of the ball - this is easiest to do during the extension "huh" phase of the strike 2) recognize that we can't anticipate exactly the timing of the ball, or may 'jump' forward due to heavy topspin, or 'slide' forward due to backspin, no matter what, we are unlikely to have perfect timing, so we want to 'lengthen the hitting zone', which is also much easier to do during the extension "huh" phase of the strike, and 3) which is related to 2, decouple the timing, so that it is far less dependent on only a single moment of initiation, or some period of time when we vaguely commit to hit, hoping the timing will work out. Ideally, we want to give our brain a moment in time that we can trigger the intent to hit, which starts the dance move in motion, and then a second moment when we 'hit' the ball, hence the two-beat strike with the 'martial arts'-like "Uh-huh" exhalation.
Spot on thanks pat the dog is cliche for pros without creative thinking
I hope you know that the test about padding the dog biomikanically is proven to be most optimal forehand as to racquet head speed with the flip, which is only possible when the strings are pointing towards the ground and the head is above the hands. It gives more spin and speed and control etc. I believe more in scientific proof by Rick Macci and Brian Gordon that your way of teaching. Even small kids can get much power without strength by this model.
Yes, I understand why the best players end up in this position. I also understand why it causes problems for a lot of players when they focus on this position. And I don’t agree that it’s the best way of teaching small kids.
not @@TomAllsopp
@@Tennishans1950 now that we know how to teach the scientifically proven best forehand I guess I can just hire anyone to work for me and pass this secret along. Sounds easy.
@@TomAllsopp You choose your model. I never understand why teachers cannot accept one model. We teachers confuse more than help when 4 teachers have 4 different models. That is why I prefer to listen to science. In every model there will always be some who cannot. I have taught for more than 40 years, and changed models several times until I started to listen to biomikanic tests. I do not say there is a wrong or right way, but a better way. There are too few who know the new stuff. They always know better. Copy the best and become the best teacher. It is easy to teach the new model if you know how. Your irony is not a good way to communicate. good luck
Djokovic's tennis coach growing up must have been really good because she taught him how to pat the dog but not for too long!
I guess so haha
most popular tennis video north america
Thank you for this video. When I saw the pat the dog, I began focusing on it too much and almost making it a slowdown/stop point. Then I saw Del Potro who most pros argue has the best forehand of all time, and whom federer said people should try to copy instead of his, doesn't do the pat the dog
But "pat the dog" gives a lot of topspin,,,,thats what I use it...and my grip is semi western and it comes more naturally
I agree 100%
Just tell them non-stop while patting the dog
IMHO, pat the dog, racket facing back-wall, racket facing slightly open , et al - are misleading and difficult to learn. Anything that doesn't come naturally with your swing, is detrimental to your muscle memory. If you don't do it consistently, your brain won't have anything to remember. The swing style and path should be a knee-jerk reaction once the ball crosses the net.
Go back to basics if your swing is in dis-array. Do ball feeding and stop playing singles/doubles. Basic on top-sin is starting point of racket is lower than the finish point on contact, it's not rocket science. Power of your ball comes from your body and trunk and legs (not your arm). Contact point of racket head should be perpendicular to ball. If at contact, your string bed isn't perpendicular, then it's your timing that's wrong. Ball feeding will fix this.
Find out what swing-type is most comfortable to you, experiment. Will it be a full take back swing? or compact? What grip is most comfortable? Eastern? Western?
What grip pressure and swing path doesn't hurt ? is your tension too much on your strings? lessen it if it's painful to your elbow. Go below 50lbs on tension. Don't squeeze on your racket handle too much on contact.
Now, once you are comfortable again and pain-free, then remember that swing style/path, AND DO THAT 10,000 times. Studies say that your muscle memory activates if you have done anything with that frequency (10k times).
AND When your muscle memory is fixed and you don't have to think anymore on how to swing at the ball, you can go back playing, and discover that you'll be more focused on patterns of play on doubles or singles games, more than focusing on your swing.
It's "tap the dog"
Why when I type in pat the dog I see loads of videos?
I cant answer you that but the term was coined by Rick Macci which I'm sure you've heard off. He specifically made the difference between "tap the dog" and "pat the dog" because of the proper wrist position.
djordjekojicic hahaha brilliant. Same thing.
i dissagree... and agree... what is important is the lag.. also you are right.. it comes from full fluid motion.. all of the great players have compact strokes.. very short take back.. however every good stoke is effortless and has a natural lag...
what is important is footwork... unit turn.. compact take back and the lag...
and the shouder turn.. which is the unit turn..
So where do you disagree?
Every good player does not have a short take back and compact stroke. Absolutely not.
I agree with the most of the part.. However pat the dog position happens naturally to generate top spin and power so it happends with out thinking .. Its part of the stroke that happends naturally i believe...
Tiafpho has a weird take back... Federer .. Short compact take back.. Djokovic .. Compact take back.. Nadal.. Short compact take back... I could keep going...
Tsitsipas too