Using WN Yellow Ochre is a big part of the problem here. Winsor Newton’s Yellow Ochre is actually a brown ochre and lacks the chroma needed for that flesh orange that he is looking for. WN Yellow Ochre Pale works better for this.
I don't know, I think it's not really a fair judgement. I think maybe you're judging it too much on how much it resembles how you already paint. I don't think Zorn wouldn't have approached a portrait the same way that you do. To your grief about not being able to achieve this color or that, or not being able to paint dark skin, Zorn might have said 'skin color relative to what?', because his work was impressionistic. The colors were right not in fact, but in relation each other, as far as the palette could allow. And if it couldn't be correct in color, it was correct in value, and settled for only suggesting the color. His flesh is satisfactory in context of the whole painting. But in your form based method, you provide no context. That being said, his paintings are not known for having great color, but for other good qualities: composition, value relationships, modern life subject matter, and of course, virtuoso brushwork. In my opinion, the color being nearly absent highlights these other things to his credit.
Ya for beginners or slow learner like me , limited palette helps. When painters used many colours to mix & paint skin, it really makes me lost coz i dont have some colours that aint common. And keeping value in check is good training
When using the Zorn Palette colors it is better to do some pre-mixing to create Grey *Black + White) , Green (Ocre + Black) , Orange (Ocre + Red) , Pink (Red + White) , Dark Brown (Black + Red) and Light Ocre. (Ocre + White) ...... I have been in a workshop where we then also pre-mixed a Cool (with Grey) and a Warm (with Ocre) variant of these resulting colors ..... then you have a nice palette to create fleshtones.
@@ericdjonkam3526 If one starts adding colours you don't have a (very) limited palette anymore. Ivory black of course works as a practically zero-chroma blue.
The main points I'd make about the Zorn pallet as an exercise are these: 1. Mix every possible colour combination before you start. 2. You can make your dull chroma zing by surrounding colours with their muted compliments (and that's kind of the point of the exercise). 3. Uss your olive green or your purpley-shade to darken stuff.
The zorn palette, works better for impressiost aproach, the black is the blue... As cool,, the red is the warm,,, and yellow ocre is medium... Please think that you are not alone in this world...not all is realistic
Hey Scott! Thanks for yet another terrific video. As for the Zorn palette; Many years ago I actually participated in the full inventory of Zorns two studios here in Sweden, and as for colors, the tubes he had were: Lead white, Yellow ochre, Cadmium yellow light, Viridian, Cobalt blue and Ivory black. (He used two different types of both Vermilion and Ivory black.) But the now mythical "Zorn palette" was a setup he certainly used on occasion, often when traveling on the road, for example in the famous portrait of Coquelin Cadet (1889) but for the most paintings he used his full palette, certainly for any out door scenes. //Matt Sammekull
What kind of yellow ochre whas it? Because I find they differ so between makers. And I read a suggestion that he was using something more similar to todays Beckers extra light yellow ochre (which has part yellow pigment in it). But maybe that was just a rumour. If your were to dig through my studio you would find a lot of stuff I never use ;) But off course one can see he used other pigments, blues and greens, sometimes. Glad midsommar(dag)!
@@wirfi9865 Hi. almost every tube he left at his death was from a German manufacturer no longer in production. By the look of the yellow ochre swathes I've seen on his actual palettes, I'd say it was more similar to a standard yellow ochre than Becker's yellow ochre light (which is a mixture of mars yellow and titanium white btw). And he often used cadmium yellow light to augment his yellow ochre. For his watercolors though, he often used golden ochre as opposed to yellow ochre, but I guess that was more due to variations in texture and transparency than the actual hue. On a side note; Beckers began production of their paints right before Zorn's death, and he did test a few of them out. The Beckers paint of today are unfortunately far away from the original stuff regarding it's quality.
I read an article once by the painter , Natalie Richy , that he used an " extended " palette with burnt sienna and cobalt blue which he mixed both with black for a warm and cool black.
@@palnagok1720 Well, why Natalie Richy would say that is anyone's guess, because it's not true at all. Not one single tube of burnt sienna fond among ALL his supplies after his passing. Maybe she got it from Harold Speed's book, in which he mentions using a pre-mixed cool (Ivory + coablt) and warm (Ivory + sienna) black.
It might feel restrictive to use restricted palettes, but I’ve always found that it teaches me a lot when I do that. His palette was geared to painting figures, rather than other subjects so your results may vary. I would end up using different and perhaps a few more colors, but I do try to use about 5 colors and white in one painting.
Tbh I've always used the Zorn pallet as an exercise in value and finding new ways to work with colour theory to get a desired effect rather than depending on accurate colour mixing. We all know that staying in our comfort zone and only doing things that are familiar to us is the best way to improve our skillset though, so screw Zorn!
My experience with this palette is very different from yours. Zorn would have used a lead white - Titanium is too cold and too gloopy for this approach. I use Cad Red Light, not Vermilion (though Zorn did - WHAT vermilion, though? There are all too many of them). I can get a good flesh orange with those; the Ivory Black (which I wouldn't use in almost any other context) needs to be used extremely sparingly, and mostly in mixes with the red - it'll give you (and did) a rather nasty sewage green if used with Yellow Ochre. I think you've tried using a palette you're not used to and are unhappy with it because you've got used to your own. You're right about the ease of retracing your steps using this palette - its principal strength, I think.
@@waltervandijk5098 More or less, yes: but what you can't match is the consistency of lead white, or the strength of the paint film it makes. I haven't done this, but wonder if Buff Titanium/Unbleached Titanium would work, at least in given contexts.....?
Yeah the Zorn pallet is absolutely brilliant. Not only is it a fantastic exercise in colour mixing and experimentation but because it's limited it really helps beginners (like old me when I started) dive straight into some fun painting without feeling overwhelmed. Because this also leads to a very focused piece, it helps breed confidence as your finished piece will look tight and balanced. It's important to know a bit about the red and yellows specifically that you're using (ochre, vermilion etc) but that's about it. Highly recommend it for an easy way to get started and a fun way to keep going.
Jeff Watts uses the Zorn palette in his teaching, and he prefers students to start out drawing for a year or so, then move into a values palette with just a dark and a white. Then move to the Zorn, at this point after several years of instruction. And the idea is that they are not fully ready to deal with a full spectrum of colour. In that context it is easier because they won't make the mistakes and muddles they would make with a full range of paints. But that kind of thinking presumably did not apply to Zorn.
This limited palette was used long before Zorn had his name attached to it. It makes sense when you start a commissioned piece either at the client's home or in your studio to limit your colours and focus on form and values so as to quickly get a good base started. Also, as Scott and other reviewers say, it helps beginners limit their mixing palette. I'd have my students start with it, then add the orange, swap the black for Burnt Umber, make other changes, and get to know the paint. Great videos, Scott. Thanks. Subscribed.
I've been told by someone who should be reliable that Rembrandt used (how often I don't know) a similar limited palette: lead white, Roman ochre, Vermillion red and Ivory black.
Thankyou very interesting on your thoughts on using the zorn palette, i recently done a study of one of his paintings using his palette, v interesting and difficult also , one thing upon completion was the degree of harmony achieved in the painting, i still have to wonder is it worth using such a limited palette , when a slightly more varied palette can still achieve give great harmony. One thing about zorns basic palette is that it was very good for flesh tones which he painted a lot of.
One challenge with the Zorn is that most people do not have access to most, or even any of his colours. Yellow ocher is fully available, but it is also a colour with quite a few different pigments, so one needs to get one like his. I just use what I have. You can't get Ivory Black any more; Vermilion is not generally available and was thought to be fugitive; and I think he used lead white, which is out there, but almost everyone use Ti which is completely different.
Zorn added colors to his palette as needed and didn’t always stick to just one set of colors. With the affordability and availability of quality artists’ oil paints these days, I see nothing wrong with making mixing as easy as possible.
I dunno, limited palettes can be great but why steal someone else's esoteric one, instead of finding your own? Its good for almost monochromatic painting, which is actually a lot of photographed things... Can bring harmony to colour schemes without having to think. Skin tones, idk, is usually better to have more. I usually make a limited pallette by main colour+ its opposite, then start adding more depending on how i want to adjust those colours (warm/cool? Quad colour scheme? Dark and saturated?)- plus something that makes a black if not black itself depending if the particular opposite colours made it in the first place! Mixed black and white is interesting because you can adjust your grey warm or cool from 3 colours.
Since I prefer to match “natural” daylight effects in nature, I prefer tubed blacks that are most matched to what I see. If there is no significantly colored bounce light from nearby objects then I simply use the thumb guide that the shadow belongs to the colored surface upon which it falls and is mainly hit by diffused natural light normally bluish-ivory black is perfect for this. Not knocking others art tastes (which are usually pleasing to me in other ways) I prefer natural realism over colorists Impressionism which I also do sometimes. Tubed blacks are never off my palette though. Unfortunately I mostly have to work from a photo realism approach most of the time, but I do go out locally and observe everything I can in real life. I don’t prefer complementary mixes as I try to match a natural color preferring to limit the hue drifts and most complements are not direct and the needed color is not actually obtainable and the color I need requires to much correction.
when I learned mixing Colors ZORN helped to find good skin tones. After I got comfortable with that I added the blue and yellow back to my palette and was better than before. I think it's good for beginners. :)
Thank you for addressing this! I like a split primary palette and never went back after I had the power of the full spectrum at my fingertips. And I love a good convenience color, too! -So blasphemous, I know. I think I became an artist as a kid because I wanted to buy/collect the whole rainbow in every medium. That's half the fun of being an artist, lol
As far as “blasphemous convenience ‘color’” goes…in terms of hue and color then yes in many cases, but NEVER in terms of the full character of single pigments and the various mixes between them. Then there are the “convenient lie’s” of some premixed and named paints-like some who call a mixed Phthalo Blue (green biased shade) and titanium white as “primary Cyan”, which is very far from the truth in all characteristics. Should I find myself constantly mixing a specific color from specific pigments of a specific manufacturer and that manufacturer makes my exact match…then for me, THAT is a convenient “color”.
Lol…besides, those “gatekeepers” of “color” are idiots. If I find premixed colors actually acceptable to me, then there is only common sense in using them to save time and money. The same is true between “grades” of tubed paints…if it works the way I want or need then by all means please yes…
We share a problematic love in art in that we want it all. As far as a chosen “limited split ‘primary’” palette goes…I only use it to teach basic theory principles in subtractive material paints. In truth-if you want the largest “spectrum” gamut that we are limited to in “standard” artist paints-you only need 7-8 paints + white with the highest chroma, transparency and tinting strength as possible (here I would refer you to Dr. Briggs and Bruce Macavoy for color theory and actual subtractive material paints). In practice, I’m not a committed subject, style and method artist and I don’t want to limit myself before I reach the actual limitations of the various mediums and that is why “I want it all”. Therefore, I practice the “complete ‘primary’ palette” in my paint box then I chose my “working palette” depending on my standard needs and only getting out another “primary” when needed.
Well from my experience you need to choose your colors more carefully - The black needs to have more the blue - the ccker must be more to the yellow and the red needs to be a worm a hot red the trick is skin has a more dirty palette and tends more to the muddy gray - well at least in the old days - now because of unnatural bright lights that have ver much more blue to them we get brighter colors - so that cadmium yellow light and cadmium orange, burnt umber, cadmium red light, and dark - ultramarine blue and phthalo blue - cobalt teal - ivory blak and titanian white the modern Zorn palette represent
The majority of this video is just you being uncomfortable because the Zorn palette is not your usual/preferred palette. This should have been a given?? This palette is really mainly for people that either struggle with, or are overwhelmed by color, or those who are on a tighter budget, but want to get into portrait painting. Using this palette is difficult in the sense that you're not going to get a full spectrum, but it teaches you how to mix color very effectively. Three of the four colors are purposely very strong, to get a wider range. This also makes it more difficult to get steps in any direction to be subtle, lol. If you can master the Zorn palette, you can do anything in terms of color mixing. Adding more colors will just make things easier from that point on. I love it for these purposes, otherwise I love my rainbow palette because I'm a spas and love bright colors! To each their own ♡
Part of the problem is that while the internet is full of Zorn info, the paint companies have not caught on. I contacted an experienced paint tech at one of the largest and most respected paint companies in the US, and he had not even heard of the Zorn palette. So no surprise they did not have a recommendation as to which of their paints would suit it best. Maybe there is the possibility of a black that tints to blue, but we aren't going to get it if the paint companies are not interested in the problem. And it may not suit them to sell only a few tubes of paint, though as the Zorn palette is becoming the breakout palette once students are introduced to color, it might suit them to grab new artist as soon as they can.
Of course ivory black is a blue violet that tints to one of the most neutral greys where “blue” is hardly noticeable-same with whites are said to be “blue” when spectrally measured they are all yellow, especially in oil mediums. Not really good pigments to teach “blue” mixing with. However, they should remain on the palette along with an ultramarine and/or cobalt blue to teach the blues and the yellow should be bumped up as well. I would start with the traditional RYB+Blk+Wt as THE minimal starting palette to teach color mixing-even in portraits-then advance to “split” and “convenience “ “primaries”. Of course one could start with real primitive palette-“caveman” pigments…which were not just “dirt”-they had the power of other natural colors as well…of course it’s really a simple matter of availability and personal constraints. What we DO know is that to obtain representative colors in all hue’s in a minimal “primary” of 3 we should choose those we want to use as equally spaced in the spectrum as possible that will produce the highest gamut that is acceptable to you personally. And of course adding the “primaries” of white and black…so 5 “primaries” is a standard minimal palette. Of course not even Zorn used the least minimalist of palettes where hues and paints are concerned. Something on the lines of “tinted charcoal and graphite” would be better to follow IF that was Zorns whole point but it wasn’t because he also used viridian and cobalt blue and punched up the RO with vermilion. A much truer “minimalist oil palette” would be a cross between “water color” and oil. White would be the untainted primed canvas and glazes would be used an/ or the use of gesso (as some artists do use for their white. Black would be nothing more than charcoal pigment in oil as some masters used and use, and is available for purchase today. For the “hued” pigments you would strictly use the low chroma earth tones. Is this not actually the way artists start their “color” journey…charcoal and white and natural earth toned chalks? In truth, we don’t even start out “limited” as children…why limit as adults? Might as well get on learning and using the various adult complications-we are past grade school…outside of drawing skills, most need a basic review and thorough “AChromatic” value education without adding “color” complications at first, which is why I teach drawing and grisaille first for oils and acrylics, etc.
From W&N Oils, you could use W&N Winsor Yellow Deep - S2 (PY65) which is an orange learning yellow, and Bright Red - S1 (PR254) which is a blue learning red, and your normal Titanium White and Raw Umber. If you need more opacity in the yellow then Naples Yellow Deep - S2 (PBr24) is just as opaque as Yellow Ochre, but higher in value and chroma and leans more towards orange. It might not be enough with you with the Bright Red, not sure.. :)
By all means, if someone has problem in having too many colors on the palette and harmonise a painting, a Zorn palette may help keeping a rationale control. However, I see a lot of hype and painters using Zorn palette just to churn out movies but in reality I think we need to use more colors. And then I always think at the color manufacturers making some 99 hues... Who is using the other 95 colors if we just need 4. .. Mumble mumble... 😂😂
Zorn himself did not exclusively use the limited palette. There is no way you can get those deep blue skies in his beach scene paintings. I think it is good to use a limited palette to learn to mix color, but the Zorn palette is not the end-all.
To look at Zorn's paintings, I'd guess he was using Perylene Black. It's a slightly transparent green shade black that was developed for type writer ink ribbons. His greens are often transparent and dark shades that seem like they could be achieved by blowing out Perylene Black with medium and maybe a touch of lead white. But I'm just guessing. Though it's pretty cheap so I'll pick some up next time I need a black.
@palnagok1720 Well I am not a historian but Google says they were around at the same time. Zorn died in the 1920's and perylene was around at the turn of the century. Additionally it appears that cheap black paint was often cut with other colors that the manufacturer had excess of.
@@everettehungerford2858e actually know he used ivory black. There's a museum here in Sweden and it's not like he was an unknown painter. Greetings from Sweden
For me, adding Raw Umber was a huge improvement to the Zorn. I also add Transparent Red Oxide because I'm lazy and I feel I can get a good starting flesh tone with it + Titanium White. I don't have a Cad Orange yet but it's on my list! I also have been trying to incorporate Alizarin into my palette, but not sure how to use it in portraits yet (shadows? cooler half tones?).
I think you need a yellower yellow ochre and possibly a slightly more orange red - This is where brands do matter because formulas differ among manufacturers.
When you do form painting, that particular way of laying in paint which I think is beautiful, the way you are brushing the paint together will dull the chroma. Ted Jacobs did form painting after his colored wash-in. He would paint the form out of a dark base but he did not neutralize as much as other painters do. I think his mixtures were quite chromatic (we used to watch him, take notes and write them down). Then he would come on top of the base and lay in the lights with triangular or just stokes shaped to the light. I looked at a Steven Assaal painting and although he paints differently, I saw a similarity in the lay in of the light on top of the form as far as the shaping of the light goes. I never could figure out how he did it; incredible control of the brush for starters. A Zorn pallette would produce incredible mud when form painting, I believe. As mentioned, Zorn did use other colors on his palette but maybe a Zorn pallette will only produce the results in the hands of a master such as Zorn.
Great info for everyone, Scott. I like Zorn but also love to have a great cad orange and raw umber...I also use alizerin crimson and sometimes a cad yellow.
Obviously you can't make the Z palette works for you. It's not the palette's fault though. Check out the great painter Patrick Byrne, he put a small vid about how he uses the Zorn. It's very concise and to the point. Perhaps it can helps. And I love raw umber too!
Might well have been - there are plenty of variants of Yellow Ochre: some is actually Mars Yellow, which would be hopeless for this. Got to say - a) I wouldn't call the Zorn palette a starter's palette AT ALL: quite the reverse. B) I fear I agree with those who 'chastise' this artist for using Alizarin Crimson - if I were him, I'd switch to a Quinacridone pigment - but: I'm NOT him; wouldn't under any circumstances use Cad Orange in portraiture, either. But - I think we make our own palettes work for us, in our own ways.
this is like watching someone judge the intelligence of a fish by how well it can ride a bicycle. you are not using the zorn palette for what it is, your judging it against your own preferences, and comfort zone.
And here we are judging the intelligence of a “fish”…that was the whole point of the video…preference and why the Zorn palette actually sucks and is unnecessary as a beginners “god” of palettes for skin tone portrait artists. It’s like adhering to RYB traditionalists-which is also a better starting palette and is still the basis of Zorns palette. By all means use it for what it is-just one very limited palette-but also know what it isn’t.
@@richiejourney1840 nobody says it is "god" palette, only you and the guy of the vid. I have used the Zorn's palette and it needs some adjusting but it is a good palette. As it is the Velázquez's .
I’m struggling with zorn too - I’ve added blue because the picture is blue. But I went for mineral black (seemed bluer of the blacks) and when you mix that with red you get a rich chocolate colour that I use as my base brown. But like, I don’t love it. Might add an orange. Oh also I went for flake white because I have no idea. Meh
Fantastic video 😊 Perhaps a more yellow version of the yellow ochre would help with the orange mixing. Ochre can vary so much, can't it. Thank you so much 👍
I feel ya on the umber situation! I worked up a a few swatches and whatnot with several palettes for science, lol. I still prefer my bastardized classical palette. I can't hang with titanium white much these days, using transparent white has turned me into a transparent paint loving fiend.
maybe for the sake of evaluating this palette at its best potential, you could premix a warmer darker tone of the four or three of the paints, even trying to make it resemble your umber, by that you could paint less effortlessly, cause no one wants to paint with a black color that they have to manipulate with the tip of the brush, like acrobatics in painting it wouldn't solve the chroma limitation, but it would make the experience less frustrating and more flowing and convinient inside that lower chroma range limitation, which is a given in the palette cause of the vermillion (which would be solved with cad red)
I prefer the sidestep colors for mixing too. I tried a CMYK palette, and those colors are all so loud and pushy, especially phthalo blue, and every minor adjustment could cause a huge unintentional swing. I would rather have a color that’s one or two steps away.
The Zorn palette originally used white lead. Titanium white kills the color and makes it very difficult to get proper saturation at higher values. I don’t like titanium white and it is a very bad dryer along with it destroys the color saturation.
Yeah after watching I'm convinced you need weaker colors to pair with the vermillion. Especially a lead white, which could be used to tint the ivory black without pushing it from cold to frigid. Trying to use titanium white with medium to weak tinting colors is a chore and often times it just absolutely decapitates the undertones on otherwise nice colors. I think a more semi transparent yellow ochre too, maybe something from Rublev like their fancy Armenian Ochres or their Italian-quarry mined ones. Also was that the ungodly expensive genuine vermillion? Cause if it's just a hue I'm not sure you're getting that pallet accuracy; in which case you're better off with a cad red light or a pyrrol red ("bright red" in WN colors). Both of those colors will compete with titanium's chroma-stifling punches-of-oppression, too.
William Schneider also has DVD on using Zorn's pallet but the free utube video is only an excerpt and mostly concerns the drawing. In the intro he does mention about substituting cad red med for the vermillion because of the mercury used to make vermillion.
The “Zorn Palette” at least as seen in that self portrait of his with the model in the background, includes raw umber. It’s really an Apelles palette choosing red as the emphasis color. It is fabled that Apelles used the Ancient Greek tetracolor palette alone (blue black, yellow oxide, red oxide and white) and then glazed with red shellac. Your flesh palette is obviously more effective.
Zorn was not a hyper-realist (like you, Scott) i.e. He did not try to make his paintings look like photographs. Thus, his limited palette had a different purpose than yours. Zorn did not hyper-render.
The Zorn pallete of three colors and black.... there were more colors in his studio so even he probably did not always use it. But who among us can even hope to paint like Zorn? Do people really think using three colors plus black is the answer to Zorn's mastery? Scott's pallette is actually somewhat limited but leaves room to dull or come up on chroma if necessary. Scott uses WN Pale Rose Blush (which is white with Perilyne Red plus Mars Yellow), Naples Yellow, Yellow Ochre, Cadmium Orange, Raw Umber, Alizarin Crimson and black. It allows for more chroma. Form painting, even if you want to lay in paint by another method, is an exercise in itself. It teaches you to think of form in a rounded sculptural manner, not to lay the paint in in planes and then try to round it. There are no planes on the human body, one of my teachers kept drilling that in.
We don't really know what palette Zorn used, as he is pictured with the simplified palette, but maybe he was sandbagging his contemporaries, or maybe he just had those colors out for a specific use. We do know. He had a lot more colors in his studio when he passed away.
I just got a Andrew Zorn book and I m just starting oil painting and I will be not making it harder for myself and will agree with you 100%.I love your videos so much you are so funny and seem to really enjoy what you do.Thanks for all your hard work.
do you think this palette is good for beginners…u only have 4 colours and from these you are forced to get all your colours? i’m a beginner and when i see a tutorial with 20 colour on the palette i freak out lol…once you’re experienced now u know your colours better and start adding? i’m a beginner so that’s my thoughts only, thank you for the awesome tutorials!!!
I definitely agree with you completely. I do like the Zorn palette, however on my studio paintings I really can't go without a decent cadm. yellow, and a raw umber. And I probably should just grab a good orange like you do anyway. Using ivory black just turns everything dead. And a raw umber + blue is nicer anyway. The other thing is how which red you're using with the original Zorn palette matters. Plenty of reds mix towards the purple too much, instead of the pink. Not saying you picked a wrong colour, but just something to be aware of and it just makes sense to add other colours if necessary. I guess the main 'selling point' of the Zorn palette is mostly how a beginner can get pretty accurate realistic skintones that aren't like a super overpowered white + red mix. My problem definitely is more so the over-saturation of colours (when I don't use a Zorn-like limited palette), versus staying more neutral when it is required for sake of realism. So I can definitely appreciate the Zorn palette. But at the same time I would probably add or swamp three extra colours to it and no black. At the end of the day it's perhaps more about mixing strategy and comfort, than the limitations. I'm also skeptical Zorn really used this very limited palette for some of his best work, which does seem to include orange/yellows you really can't get with just yellow ochre alone.
This was great, thanks Scott. I've been enjoying using your usual palette as a solid foundation to build on. I recently also picked up your pale rose blush to trial it and save time. Can you do a video on titanium vs flake white? Btw nice beard 👌
Great video but a small remark. This Zorn palet makes it more easy for a starter to make the first portraits. I used it to try out and added a few colours later. There was 1 very good reason, with this limited palet the colours almost never clash so even if you have no idea how to mix them, the result turns out OK most of the time. I used acrylic paints. But then... in my art school every form of black paint is forbidden to use! So Zorn, one of the masters of his time if you like it or not, who painted 3 or 4 American presidents just to name a few would be kicked out by our teacher :-)
Astounding! this video/ you have attracted such serious thoughtful engaged collection of artists obviously living/practicing …thrilling … inspiring . Congratulations. Here’s to all of us!
You might do better with a lead white or even a Lithopone, which is non toxic. Basically a weaker white. Maybe a natural mined yellow ochre instead, if you're using something like a mars yellow or something else synthetic. Use other historical colors alongside the vermilion.
Hey, thank You for your videos. They help a lot. I have a question on portraits: how to paint this very short kind of a haircut, when hair are like 2-3mm long and dark but You still can see the scalp? Every time i tire this it looks ridiculous:D
Hi, just wondering when your conversation with Rosemary &Co was. I tried ordering from them about three months ago; had a problem with their checkout process. Sent them an email for help and have never heard from them . If that's the way they operate their customer service; then bye bye.
They're actually a really nice company with awesome brushes. Really attentive in all my dealings with them. I think it's a small company, so you might have fallen through the cracks. I'd definitely try shooting them another email. Their free catalogues are super neat too.
Yes…into another beautiful color…all colors shifts into something not originally laid down and much more so if you hang it in the direct sun…which most do not do…use the knowledge to your advantage for price tag and longevity for someone else to get rich off of you…let the rest of it go and let us enjoy our PR83 as we wish…
I think Apelle was the one to base on this palette. Thd logic seems that with this basic colors you can produce all the existings hue. Of course the result is not fully saturated, but I love this powerfull and dominance of red. I also think that with those basic colors, it is easy to paint, produce light and you can be very creative as well.
Modern artists don't really have access to the same colors as Zorn had. The main culprit is the black. Today's Ivory Black is just another black the same as the others, same pigment. Originally it had a bluish cast to it, or so some say. We aren't allowed to use it today, for obvious reasons. One tip I got was that Winton Ivory Black, which is less powerful, and may also have a bluish cast. I bought some, but have not got around to it yet. But it doesn't end there. Vermilion is gone. Kremer has a lot of yellow ochres, maybe 10 pigments. And we can get lead white, but few are actually using it, judging by the video online.
You can get archivalists pigments. It is not illegal to obtain the required pigments in most countries. Ivory black is NOT just another black nor is it the same pigments in the other blacks. While it is true that it was originally made from burned ivory and slightly different than modern slaughter house charred bones the difference is not that big and it still has a blue violet cast to the eye as well as spectrally measured. I doubt (but not researched) Zorn used true Ivory since it was still more expensive, but he did use 2 ivories from two different manufacturers-one no longer exists and the other’s is not a household name but still in existence but the quality of the paints is really bad. He also used cobalt blue and viridian. “We aren’t allowed to use it today, for obvious reasons.” Lol do explain why…I use all of the manufactured blacks and “chromatic” mixed blacks as well as my own mixed blacks. ALL blacks are chromatic. No offense, but I’m guessing that you are a modern Colorist Impressionist that does not venture into actual extreme realism? Winton is a student grade ivory black which is cut with transparent fillers and that is why it is less “powerful”-which is my way of saying less bang for your money OR less tinting strength. Fewer people are not using lead white because their mommies have made them overly afraid of what’s “under the kitchen sink”-never removing their nipples from the children’s mouths- and thus made them more expensive, plus pigments are industrial driven and they don’t need it so it’s purely an artists thing. I hope you are not afraid to clean your battery cables-if even you know how-since the oxidation is exactly what lead white is…don’t touch them or you could get lead poisoning and die…poor auto mechanics and battery manufacturers…let alone hunters and fishermen…we are all gonna die from lead poisoning…don’t you dare go outside and breath the polluted air…relax, chill, take proper safety measures if your worried about it. Lead white would be my main white if it wasn’t so expensive. I don’t even wear gloves…particles are to big to pass through the skin and I don’t use dry pigments nor do I sand or eat and drink my paints. Live a little and try some.
Hi Scott, Awesome video's! I can't find anyone sharing the information at the level you do. Is it possible to compare the combination of colors (below) with the colors on your palette? I started using these a few years ago (especially for portrait’s) after attending some workshops with Robin Eley. A lot of people are using this combination as well. I think it would be extremely valuable if you could share your experience and thoughts on the colors and mixtures below. RT Rembrandt: Ultramarine Deep RT Rembrandt: Transparent Oxide Red W&N: Terra Rosa W&N: Permanent Alizarin Crimson W&N: Cadmium Red W&N: Yellow Ocre Light W&N: Titanium White
The limited Zorn palette was usedin the first century for the Fayum Mummy Portraits. They are amazing paintings, look it up. I found them😊 when trying to trace back portrait painting. fayum is near Ciaro, Egypt. They used those four basic colors’cause that’s what was readily available around 40 AD. Other minerals were added here and there as found. The Met has a portrait, so does the Det institue of art. Other artists throughout history used limited palettes too. What flesh tones you get also has to do with pigment load. Scott, i know you use Winton, so do I, they aren’t pigment heavy like some other lines of paint. Come on you can do better than that. Perhaps you needto take some lessons using that limited palette. Icon painters moving out of encaustic to egg tempra also had limited colors. Are you naïve to think they only used 4 colors? I’m an adult, relatively new to painting, workshopped around, after a decade i’m simplified. Are you using mars black? Odd Nerdrum uses a limited palette, look him up. He’s an incredible master. In any case, use what works for you. I guess after watching you fir ages, I’m dusappointed in your lack of skill to manage this technique. Have you ever tried Egg Tempra, Encaustic? You probably wouldn’t be able to achieve success with those historic mediums either. How about Dumi, these limited color for you too. Lets use Sumi for renaissance copies. I am respectful of your technique and ability, so this grandma makes this entry with respect. You paint with your preferences, that doesn’t mean it’s the only right way. It’s the only right way for your way. You are aware that other colors were added to Zorn to achieve the blue. A color Lapis Lazuli (?) was used. Yes, premixed colors make painter easier, have you noticed the Amount of hues in some lines? Charvin, old holland? amount of colors in certain lines: Charvin, Old Holland? Gosh you’d not need to mix any of your own colors.
The Apelles Odd Nerdrum palette is phenomenal it's like magic. its not the same as the usual Zorn palettes including the one shown here even though it looks similar.
Using WN Yellow Ochre is a big part of the problem here. Winsor Newton’s Yellow Ochre is actually a brown ochre and lacks the chroma needed for that flesh orange that he is looking for. WN Yellow Ochre Pale works better for this.
Absolutely right. WN Yellow Ochre is baby poop.
I don't know, I think it's not really a fair judgement. I think maybe you're judging it too much on how much it resembles how you already paint. I don't think Zorn wouldn't have approached a portrait the same way that you do. To your grief about not being able to achieve this color or that, or not being able to paint dark skin, Zorn might have said 'skin color relative to what?', because his work was impressionistic. The colors were right not in fact, but in relation each other, as far as the palette could allow. And if it couldn't be correct in color, it was correct in value, and settled for only suggesting the color. His flesh is satisfactory in context of the whole painting. But in your form based method, you provide no context. That being said, his paintings are not known for having great color, but for other good qualities: composition, value relationships, modern life subject matter, and of course, virtuoso brushwork. In my opinion, the color being nearly absent highlights these other things to his credit.
Ya for beginners or slow learner like me , limited palette helps. When painters used many colours to mix & paint skin, it really makes me lost coz i dont have some colours that aint common. And keeping value in check is good training
I personal like your pallet,and the way your teach your technic thank you for sharing your abilities with us
very well said and true in my opinion!
When using the Zorn Palette colors it is better to do some pre-mixing to create Grey *Black + White) , Green (Ocre + Black) , Orange (Ocre + Red) , Pink (Red + White) , Dark Brown (Black + Red) and Light Ocre. (Ocre + White) ...... I have been in a workshop where we then also pre-mixed a Cool (with Grey) and a Warm (with Ocre) variant of these resulting colors ..... then you have a nice palette to create fleshtones.
How about blue?
@@ericdjonkam3526 If one starts adding colours you don't have a (very) limited palette anymore. Ivory black of course works as a practically zero-chroma blue.
@@djo-dji6018that is of course debatable…
@@ericdjonkam3526feel free to use another blue.
The main points I'd make about the Zorn pallet as an exercise are these: 1. Mix every possible colour combination before you start. 2. You can make your dull chroma zing by surrounding colours with their muted compliments (and that's kind of the point of the exercise). 3. Uss your olive green or your purpley-shade to darken stuff.
The zorn palette, works better for impressiost aproach, the black is the blue... As cool,, the red is the warm,,, and yellow ocre is medium... Please think that you are not alone in this world...not all is realistic
Hey Scott! Thanks for yet another terrific video.
As for the Zorn palette; Many years ago I actually participated in the full inventory of Zorns two studios here in Sweden, and as for colors, the tubes he had were:
Lead white, Yellow ochre, Cadmium yellow light, Viridian, Cobalt blue and Ivory black. (He used two different types of both Vermilion and Ivory black.)
But the now mythical "Zorn palette" was a setup he certainly used on occasion, often when traveling on the road, for example in the famous portrait of Coquelin Cadet (1889) but for the most paintings he used his full palette, certainly for any out door scenes.
//Matt Sammekull
What kind of yellow ochre whas it? Because I find they differ so between makers. And I read a suggestion that he was using something more similar to todays Beckers extra light yellow ochre (which has part yellow pigment in it). But maybe that was just a rumour.
If your were to dig through my studio you would find a lot of stuff I never use ;) But off course one can see he used other pigments, blues and greens, sometimes.
Glad midsommar(dag)!
@@wirfi9865 Hi. almost every tube he left at his death was from a German manufacturer no longer in production.
By the look of the yellow ochre swathes I've seen on his actual palettes, I'd say it was more similar to a standard yellow ochre than Becker's yellow ochre light (which is a mixture of mars yellow and titanium white btw).
And he often used cadmium yellow light to augment his yellow ochre.
For his watercolors though, he often used golden ochre as opposed to yellow ochre, but I guess that was more due to variations in texture and transparency than the actual hue.
On a side note; Beckers began production of their paints right before Zorn's death, and he did test a few of them out. The Beckers paint of today are unfortunately far away from the original stuff regarding it's quality.
Thanks for sharing, I've always wondered because he used blue in some of his paintings.
I read an article once by the painter , Natalie Richy , that he used an " extended " palette with burnt sienna and cobalt blue which he mixed both with black for a warm and cool black.
@@palnagok1720 Well, why Natalie Richy would say that is anyone's guess, because it's not true at all. Not one single tube of burnt sienna fond among ALL his supplies after his passing.
Maybe she got it from Harold Speed's book, in which he mentions using a pre-mixed cool (Ivory + coablt) and warm (Ivory + sienna) black.
It might feel restrictive to use restricted palettes, but I’ve always found that it teaches me a lot when I do that. His palette was geared to painting figures, rather than other subjects so your results may vary. I would end up using different and perhaps a few more colors, but I do try to use about 5 colors and white in one painting.
Love your communication style/sense of humor not to mention artistic prowess!
Totally agree.
I like the fact that you are not too attached to dogmas . Watching your videos everyday to improve
Tbh I've always used the Zorn pallet as an exercise in value and finding new ways to work with colour theory to get a desired effect rather than depending on accurate colour mixing.
We all know that staying in our comfort zone and only doing things that are familiar to us is the best way to improve our skillset though, so screw Zorn!
My experience with this palette is very different from yours. Zorn would have used a lead white - Titanium is too cold and too gloopy for this approach. I use Cad Red Light, not Vermilion (though Zorn did - WHAT vermilion, though? There are all too many of them). I can get a good flesh orange with those; the Ivory Black (which I wouldn't use in almost any other context) needs to be used extremely sparingly, and mostly in mixes with the red - it'll give you (and did) a rather nasty sewage green if used with Yellow Ochre. I think you've tried using a palette you're not used to and are unhappy with it because you've got used to your own. You're right about the ease of retracing your steps using this palette - its principal strength, I think.
first painter with no patience..lol i do not want to have him as a teacher...sikes
@@patriciozazzini968 Yikes, not sikes.
Just mix a little ocre into titanium white and you can match the color of Lead white.
@@waltervandijk5098 More or less, yes: but what you can't match is the consistency of lead white, or the strength of the paint film it makes. I haven't done this, but wonder if Buff Titanium/Unbleached Titanium would work, at least in given contexts.....?
@@RobertJonesWightpaint Use calcite
I tried the Zorn pallet.I disliked the limitations.when there are so many wonderful colors out there!
Yeah the Zorn pallet is absolutely brilliant. Not only is it a fantastic exercise in colour mixing and experimentation but because it's limited it really helps beginners (like old me when I started) dive straight into some fun painting without feeling overwhelmed. Because this also leads to a very focused piece, it helps breed confidence as your finished piece will look tight and balanced. It's important to know a bit about the red and yellows specifically that you're using (ochre, vermilion etc) but that's about it. Highly recommend it for an easy way to get started and a fun way to keep going.
Jeff Watts uses the Zorn palette in his teaching, and he prefers students to start out drawing for a year or so, then move into a values palette with just a dark and a white. Then move to the Zorn, at this point after several years of instruction. And the idea is that they are not fully ready to deal with a full spectrum of colour. In that context it is easier because they won't make the mistakes and muddles they would make with a full range of paints. But that kind of thinking presumably did not apply to Zorn.
This limited palette was used long before Zorn had his name attached to it. It makes sense when you start a commissioned piece either at the client's home or in your studio to limit your colours and focus on form and values so as to quickly get a good base started. Also, as Scott and other reviewers say, it helps beginners limit their mixing palette. I'd have my students start with it, then add the orange, swap the black for Burnt Umber, make other changes, and get to know the paint. Great videos, Scott. Thanks. Subscribed.
I've been told by someone who should be reliable that Rembrandt used (how often I don't know) a similar limited palette: lead white, Roman ochre, Vermillion red and Ivory black.
I think your humor is great your explanation spot on, and think your art speaks highly of your commitment and enthusiasm as well as talent
I like the 'Waddel' palette more, I always use some 'shortcuts' from you. Let us know when you hear from Rosemary.
Thankyou very interesting on your thoughts on using the zorn palette, i recently done a study of one of his paintings using his palette, v interesting and difficult also , one thing upon completion was the degree of harmony achieved in the painting, i still have to wonder is it worth using such a limited palette , when a slightly more varied palette can still achieve give great harmony.
One thing about zorns basic palette is that it was very good for flesh tones which he painted a lot of.
One challenge with the Zorn is that most people do not have access to most, or even any of his colours. Yellow ocher is fully available, but it is also a colour with quite a few different pigments, so one needs to get one like his. I just use what I have. You can't get Ivory Black any more; Vermilion is not generally available and was thought to be fugitive; and I think he used lead white, which is out there, but almost everyone use Ti which is completely different.
Please enable the translation feature🌹I am from the Arab world and I hope to benefit from what you offer💐
Yes please I hope you add translation to your video 😩🌿
Neat
Zorn added colors to his palette as needed and didn’t always stick to just one set of colors. With the affordability and availability of quality artists’ oil paints these days, I see nothing wrong with making mixing as easy as possible.
I dunno, limited palettes can be great but why steal someone else's esoteric one, instead of finding your own?
Its good for almost monochromatic painting, which is actually a lot of photographed things... Can bring harmony to colour schemes without having to think.
Skin tones, idk, is usually better to have more.
I usually make a limited pallette by main colour+ its opposite, then start adding more depending on how i want to adjust those colours (warm/cool? Quad colour scheme? Dark and saturated?)- plus something that makes a black if not black itself depending if the particular opposite colours made it in the first place!
Mixed black and white is interesting because you can adjust your grey warm or cool from 3 colours.
I use a double primary pallet myself. Titanium white, a warm and cool in blue, red and yellow. Also Paynes grey for easier mixing of chromatic blacks.
Since I prefer to match “natural” daylight effects in nature, I prefer tubed blacks that are most matched to what I see. If there is no significantly colored bounce light from nearby objects then I simply use the thumb guide that the shadow belongs to the colored surface upon which it falls and is mainly hit by diffused natural light normally bluish-ivory black is perfect for this. Not knocking others art tastes (which are usually pleasing to me in other ways) I prefer natural realism over colorists Impressionism which I also do sometimes. Tubed blacks are never off my palette though. Unfortunately I mostly have to work from a photo realism approach most of the time, but I do go out locally and observe everything I can in real life. I don’t prefer complementary mixes as I try to match a natural color preferring to limit the hue drifts and most complements are not direct and the needed color is not actually obtainable and the color I need requires to much correction.
It is a pallete that most baroque painters also used due to rarity of blue pigments , not very special or necessary
when I learned mixing Colors ZORN helped to find good skin tones. After I got comfortable with that I added the blue and yellow back to my palette and was better than before. I think it's good for beginners. :)
Thank you for addressing this! I like a split primary palette and never went back after I had the power of the full spectrum at my fingertips.
And I love a good convenience color, too! -So blasphemous, I know. I think I became an artist as a kid because I wanted to buy/collect the whole rainbow in every medium. That's half the fun of being an artist, lol
I like to collect single pigment colors, you can still have a rainbow if you do that
As far as “blasphemous convenience ‘color’” goes…in terms of hue and color then yes in many cases, but NEVER in terms of the full character of single pigments and the various mixes between them. Then there are the “convenient lie’s” of some premixed and named paints-like some who call a mixed Phthalo Blue (green biased shade) and titanium white as “primary Cyan”, which is very far from the truth in all characteristics. Should I find myself constantly mixing a specific color from specific pigments of a specific manufacturer and that manufacturer makes my exact match…then for me, THAT is a convenient “color”.
Lol…besides, those “gatekeepers” of “color” are idiots. If I find premixed colors actually acceptable to me, then there is only common sense in using them to save time and money. The same is true between “grades” of tubed paints…if it works the way I want or need then by all means please yes…
We share a problematic love in art in that we want it all. As far as a chosen “limited split ‘primary’” palette goes…I only use it to teach basic theory principles in subtractive material paints. In truth-if you want the largest “spectrum” gamut that we are limited to in “standard” artist paints-you only need 7-8 paints + white with the highest chroma, transparency and tinting strength as possible (here I would refer you to Dr. Briggs and Bruce Macavoy for color theory and actual subtractive material paints). In practice, I’m not a committed subject, style and method artist and I don’t want to limit myself before I reach the actual limitations of the various mediums and that is why “I want it all”. Therefore, I practice the “complete ‘primary’ palette” in my paint box then I chose my “working palette” depending on my standard needs and only getting out another “primary” when needed.
Well from my experience you need to choose your colors more carefully - The black needs to have more the blue - the ccker must be more to the yellow and the red needs to be a worm a hot red the trick is skin has a more dirty palette and tends more to the muddy gray - well at least in the old days - now because of unnatural bright lights that have ver much more blue to them we get brighter colors - so that cadmium yellow light and cadmium orange, burnt umber, cadmium red light, and dark - ultramarine blue and phthalo blue - cobalt teal - ivory blak and titanian white the modern Zorn palette represent
for me that yelow ochre do not look like yelow ... more like raw umber...
Love your demos and wry presentation style! Thanks!
The majority of this video is just you being uncomfortable because the Zorn palette is not your usual/preferred palette. This should have been a given??
This palette is really mainly for people that either struggle with, or are overwhelmed by color, or those who are on a tighter budget, but want to get into portrait painting. Using this palette is difficult in the sense that you're not going to get a full spectrum, but it teaches you how to mix color very effectively. Three of the four colors are purposely very strong, to get a wider range. This also makes it more difficult to get steps in any direction to be subtle, lol.
If you can master the Zorn palette, you can do anything in terms of color mixing. Adding more colors will just make things easier from that point on. I love it for these purposes, otherwise I love my rainbow palette because I'm a spas and love bright colors!
To each their own ♡
There is a more primitive cost effective way to learn color…
Excellent instruction as always with great humour, love your work :)
Part of the problem is that while the internet is full of Zorn info, the paint companies have not caught on. I contacted an experienced paint tech at one of the largest and most respected paint companies in the US, and he had not even heard of the Zorn palette. So no surprise they did not have a recommendation as to which of their paints would suit it best. Maybe there is the possibility of a black that tints to blue, but we aren't going to get it if the paint companies are not interested in the problem. And it may not suit them to sell only a few tubes of paint, though as the Zorn palette is becoming the breakout palette once students are introduced to color, it might suit them to grab new artist as soon as they can.
Doesn’t Ivory black tint to blue?
Edit: Just ignore this, read your other comment.
...Paynes grey can tint to a bluish grey.
Of course ivory black is a blue violet that tints to one of the most neutral greys where “blue” is hardly noticeable-same with whites are said to be “blue” when spectrally measured they are all yellow, especially in oil mediums. Not really good pigments to teach “blue” mixing with. However, they should remain on the palette along with an ultramarine and/or cobalt blue to teach the blues and the yellow should be bumped up as well. I would start with the traditional RYB+Blk+Wt as THE minimal starting palette to teach color mixing-even in portraits-then advance to “split” and “convenience “ “primaries”. Of course one could start with real primitive palette-“caveman” pigments…which were not just “dirt”-they had the power of other natural colors as well…of course it’s really a simple matter of availability and personal constraints. What we DO know is that to obtain representative colors in all hue’s in a minimal “primary” of 3 we should choose those we want to use as equally spaced in the spectrum as possible that will produce the highest gamut that is acceptable to you personally. And of course adding the “primaries” of white and black…so 5 “primaries” is a standard minimal palette.
Of course not even Zorn used the least minimalist of palettes where hues and paints are concerned. Something on the lines of “tinted charcoal and graphite” would be better to follow IF that was Zorns whole point but it wasn’t because he also used viridian and cobalt blue and punched up the RO with vermilion. A much truer “minimalist oil palette” would be a cross between “water color” and oil. White would be the untainted primed canvas and glazes would be used an/ or the use of gesso (as some artists do use for their white. Black would be nothing more than charcoal pigment in oil as some masters used and use, and is available for purchase today. For the “hued” pigments you would strictly use the low chroma earth tones. Is this not actually the way artists start their “color” journey…charcoal and white and natural earth toned chalks? In truth, we don’t even start out “limited” as children…why limit as adults? Might as well get on learning and using the various adult complications-we are past grade school…outside of drawing skills, most need a basic review and thorough “AChromatic” value education without adding “color” complications at first, which is why I teach drawing and grisaille first for oils and acrylics, etc.
Academic painting used premixes and not straight from tube colour
From W&N Oils, you could use W&N Winsor Yellow Deep - S2 (PY65) which is an orange learning yellow, and Bright Red - S1 (PR254) which is a blue learning red, and your normal Titanium White and Raw Umber. If you need more opacity in the yellow then Naples Yellow Deep - S2 (PBr24) is just as opaque as Yellow Ochre, but higher in value and chroma and leans more towards orange. It might not be enough with you with the Bright Red, not sure.. :)
Flake white would have enabled you to stay more chromatic in your higher values.
or using titanium white plus calcite
By all means, if someone has problem in having too many colors on the palette and harmonise a painting, a Zorn palette may help keeping a rationale control. However, I see a lot of hype and painters using Zorn palette just to churn out movies but in reality I think we need to use more colors. And then I always think at the color manufacturers making some 99 hues... Who is using the other 95 colors if we just need 4. .. Mumble mumble... 😂😂
The Zorn palette doesn’t use Titanium White. It obliterates chroma. Lead White only, homeslice.
Zorn himself did not exclusively use the limited palette. There is no way you can get those deep blue skies in his beach scene paintings. I think it is good to use a limited palette to learn to mix color, but the Zorn palette is not the end-all.
To look at Zorn's paintings, I'd guess he was using Perylene Black. It's a slightly transparent green shade black that was developed for type writer ink ribbons. His greens are often transparent and dark shades that seem like they could be achieved by blowing out Perylene Black with medium and maybe a touch of lead white. But I'm just guessing. Though it's pretty cheap so I'll pick some up next time I need a black.
When were the perylene colours first manufactured...way after Zorn died, ( 1920 ) perhaps.
@palnagok1720 Well I am not a historian but Google says they were around at the same time. Zorn died in the 1920's and perylene was around at the turn of the century. Additionally it appears that cheap black paint was often cut with other colors that the manufacturer had excess of.
@@everettehungerford2858e actually know he used ivory black. There's a museum here in Sweden and it's not like he was an unknown painter.
Greetings from Sweden
For me, adding Raw Umber was a huge improvement to the Zorn. I also add Transparent Red Oxide because I'm lazy and I feel I can get a good starting flesh tone with it + Titanium White. I don't have a Cad Orange yet but it's on my list! I also have been trying to incorporate Alizarin into my palette, but not sure how to use it in portraits yet (shadows? cooler half tones?).
I think you need a yellower yellow ochre and possibly a slightly more orange red - This is where brands do matter because formulas differ among manufacturers.
sweden....the man was from sweden....
When you do form painting, that particular way of laying in paint which I think is beautiful, the way you are brushing the paint together will dull the chroma. Ted Jacobs did form painting after his colored wash-in. He would paint the form out of a dark base but he did not neutralize as much as other painters do. I think his mixtures were quite chromatic (we used to watch him, take notes and write them down). Then he would come on top of the base and lay in the lights with triangular or just stokes shaped to the light. I looked at a Steven Assaal painting and although he paints differently, I saw a similarity in the lay in of the light on top of the form as far as the shaping of the light goes. I never could figure out how he did it; incredible control of the brush for starters. A Zorn pallette would produce incredible mud when form painting, I believe. As mentioned, Zorn did use other colors on his palette but maybe a Zorn pallette will only produce the results in the hands of a master such as Zorn.
Great info for everyone, Scott. I like Zorn but also love to have a great cad orange and raw umber...I also use alizerin crimson and sometimes a cad yellow.
Obviously you can't make the Z palette works for you. It's not the palette's fault though. Check out the great painter Patrick Byrne, he put a small vid about how he uses the Zorn. It's very concise and to the point. Perhaps it can helps. And I love raw umber too!
Thank you for showing an alternative to the ubiquitous Zorn palette. I've had trouble with it and like your suggestions.
Maybe Zorn's yellow ochre was yellower? Either way.. thanks for the video!
Might well have been - there are plenty of variants of Yellow Ochre: some is actually Mars Yellow, which would be hopeless for this. Got to say - a) I wouldn't call the Zorn palette a starter's palette AT ALL: quite the reverse. B) I fear I agree with those who 'chastise' this artist for using Alizarin Crimson - if I were him, I'd switch to a Quinacridone pigment - but: I'm NOT him; wouldn't under any circumstances use Cad Orange in portraiture, either. But - I think we make our own palettes work for us, in our own ways.
@@RobertJonesWightpaint Thanks for the reply! Mars Yellow looks nice and bright, I'm curious why it wouldn't work here?
this is like watching someone judge the intelligence of a fish by how well it can ride a bicycle. you are not using the zorn palette for what it is, your judging it against your own preferences, and comfort zone.
And here we are judging the intelligence of a “fish”…that was the whole point of the video…preference and why the Zorn palette actually sucks and is unnecessary as a beginners “god” of palettes for skin tone portrait artists. It’s like adhering to RYB traditionalists-which is also a better starting palette and is still the basis of Zorns palette. By all means use it for what it is-just one very limited palette-but also know what it isn’t.
@@richiejourney1840 nobody says it is "god" palette, only you and the guy of the vid. I have used the Zorn's palette and it needs some adjusting but it is a good palette. As it is the Velázquez's .
I’m struggling with zorn too - I’ve added blue because the picture is blue. But I went for mineral black (seemed bluer of the blacks) and when you mix that with red you get a rich chocolate colour that I use as my base brown. But like, I don’t love it. Might add an orange. Oh also I went for flake white because I have no idea.
Meh
Fantastic video 😊 Perhaps a more yellow version of the yellow ochre would help with the orange mixing. Ochre can vary so much, can't it. Thank you so much 👍
Hehe nice man
I feel ya on the umber situation! I worked up a a few swatches and whatnot with several palettes for science, lol. I still prefer my bastardized classical palette. I can't hang with titanium white much these days, using transparent white has turned me into a transparent paint loving fiend.
See tad Spurgeon and his treatment of ti white by taming it with calcite.
Hilarious. You're a FARKING GEM!
Lol that ochre not yellow at all, It appears almost like raw umber to me, no wonder you can't get it to behave
maybe for the sake of evaluating this palette at its best potential, you could premix a warmer darker tone of the four or three of the paints, even trying to make it resemble your umber, by that you could paint less effortlessly, cause no one wants to paint with a black color that they have to manipulate with the tip of the brush, like acrobatics in painting
it wouldn't solve the chroma limitation, but it would make the experience less frustrating and more flowing and convinient inside that lower chroma range limitation, which is a given in the palette cause of the vermillion (which would be solved with cad red)
I prefer the sidestep colors for mixing too. I tried a CMYK palette, and those colors are all so loud and pushy, especially phthalo blue, and every minor adjustment could cause a huge unintentional swing. I would rather have a color that’s one or two steps away.
I wonder if anyone that is a colorblind painter would find the limited palette helpful?
Watch for the tips, stay for your personality 😂 my british brain loves your dry humour
The Zorn palette originally used white lead. Titanium white kills the color and makes it very difficult to get proper saturation at higher values.
I don’t like titanium white and it is a very bad dryer along with it destroys the color saturation.
If that's a flesh tone, it looks like someone punched it. 😂 Art tutorials with a side of comedy. Perfect combination.
Yeah after watching I'm convinced you need weaker colors to pair with the vermillion. Especially a lead white, which could be used to tint the ivory black without pushing it from cold to frigid. Trying to use titanium white with medium to weak tinting colors is a chore and often times it just absolutely decapitates the undertones on otherwise nice colors. I think a more semi transparent yellow ochre too, maybe something from Rublev like their fancy Armenian Ochres or their Italian-quarry mined ones. Also was that the ungodly expensive genuine vermillion? Cause if it's just a hue I'm not sure you're getting that pallet accuracy; in which case you're better off with a cad red light or a pyrrol red ("bright red" in WN colors). Both of those colors will compete with titanium's chroma-stifling punches-of-oppression, too.
it keep in frame of reality It give priority to fast find right color Not too fast bay it.
But what if I want to paint a smurf? There's no blue.
😂
I feel like I get a punchier orange using yellow ochre and cad red medium. Not sure why my result is so different.
William Schneider also has DVD on using Zorn's pallet but the free utube video is only an excerpt and mostly concerns the drawing. In the intro he does mention about substituting cad red med for the vermillion because of the mercury used to make vermillion.
Awesome instructions
The “Zorn Palette” at least as seen in that self portrait of his with the model in the background, includes raw umber. It’s really an Apelles palette choosing red as the emphasis color. It is fabled that Apelles used the Ancient Greek tetracolor palette alone (blue black, yellow oxide, red oxide and white) and then glazed with red shellac. Your flesh palette is obviously more effective.
Can we use raw sienna as yellow in the palette?
ha ha you are so funny. I use 24 colors on my palette and I luv it.
I agree!
Are you sure that's even yellow ochre? Very dull..
Zorn was not a hyper-realist (like you, Scott) i.e. He did not try to make his paintings look like photographs. Thus, his limited palette had a different purpose than yours. Zorn did not hyper-render.
The Zorn pallete of three colors and black.... there were more colors in his studio so even he probably did not always use it. But who among us can even hope to paint like Zorn? Do people really think using three colors plus black is the answer to Zorn's mastery? Scott's pallette is actually somewhat limited but leaves room to dull or come up on chroma if necessary. Scott uses WN Pale Rose Blush (which is white with Perilyne Red plus Mars Yellow), Naples Yellow, Yellow Ochre, Cadmium Orange, Raw Umber, Alizarin Crimson and black. It allows for more chroma. Form painting, even if you want to lay in paint by another method, is an exercise in itself. It teaches you to think of form in a rounded sculptural manner, not to lay the paint in in planes and then try to round it. There are no planes on the human body, one of my teachers kept drilling that in.
@@janroach1852 is that a real Naples yellow or a hue ?
I love using it.
We don't really know what palette Zorn used, as he is pictured with the simplified palette, but maybe he was sandbagging his contemporaries, or maybe he just had those colors out for a specific use. We do know. He had a lot more colors in his studio when he passed away.
I just got a Andrew Zorn book and I m just starting oil painting and I will be not making it harder for myself and will agree with you 100%.I love your videos so much you are so funny and seem to really enjoy what you do.Thanks for all your hard work.
I have learned a lot from you that my university please make more videos 🌷🌷🌷
do you think this palette is good for beginners…u only have 4 colours and from these you are forced to get all your colours? i’m a beginner and when i see a tutorial with 20 colour on the palette i freak out lol…once you’re experienced now u know your colours better and start adding? i’m a beginner so that’s my thoughts only, thank you for the awesome tutorials!!!
I definitely agree with you completely. I do like the Zorn palette, however on my studio paintings I really can't go without a decent cadm. yellow, and a raw umber. And I probably should just grab a good orange like you do anyway. Using ivory black just turns everything dead. And a raw umber + blue is nicer anyway. The other thing is how which red you're using with the original Zorn palette matters. Plenty of reds mix towards the purple too much, instead of the pink. Not saying you picked a wrong colour, but just something to be aware of and it just makes sense to add other colours if necessary. I guess the main 'selling point' of the Zorn palette is mostly how a beginner can get pretty accurate realistic skintones that aren't like a super overpowered white + red mix. My problem definitely is more so the over-saturation of colours (when I don't use a Zorn-like limited palette), versus staying more neutral when it is required for sake of realism. So I can definitely appreciate the Zorn palette. But at the same time I would probably add or swamp three extra colours to it and no black. At the end of the day it's perhaps more about mixing strategy and comfort, than the limitations. I'm also skeptical Zorn really used this very limited palette for some of his best work, which does seem to include orange/yellows you really can't get with just yellow ochre alone.
This was great, thanks Scott. I've been enjoying using your usual palette as a solid foundation to build on. I recently also picked up your pale rose blush to trial it and save time. Can you do a video on titanium vs flake white? Btw nice beard 👌
Great video but a small remark. This Zorn palet makes it more easy for a starter to make the first portraits. I used it to try out and added a few colours later. There was 1 very good reason, with this limited palet the colours almost never clash so even if you have no idea how to mix them, the result turns out OK most of the time. I used acrylic paints. But then... in my art school every form of black paint is forbidden to use! So Zorn, one of the masters of his time if you like it or not, who painted 3 or 4 American presidents just to name a few would be kicked out by our teacher :-)
Anti black demons who still strive to mix and use it…;)
Wish you all the best 🙏🏻🌷
I feel I should get up and work on my oil painting right now 😭🔥
🤣 I like to paint a good flesh ball in the morning 🤣
Does anyone know what make the cad orange is he uses
...winsor and newton
Astounding! this video/ you have attracted such serious thoughtful engaged collection of artists obviously living/practicing …thrilling … inspiring .
Congratulations. Here’s to all of us!
You might do better with a lead white or even a Lithopone, which is non toxic. Basically a weaker white. Maybe a natural mined yellow ochre instead, if you're using something like a mars yellow or something else synthetic. Use other historical colors alongside the vermilion.
Hey, thank You for your videos. They help a lot.
I have a question on portraits: how to paint this very short kind of a haircut, when hair are like 2-3mm long and dark but You still can see the scalp? Every time i tire this it looks ridiculous:D
Absolutely brilliant 👏 👌 😀 I needed to hear that right now!
Hi, just wondering when your conversation with Rosemary &Co was. I tried ordering from them about three months ago; had a problem with their checkout process. Sent them an email for help and have never heard from them . If that's the way they operate their customer service; then bye bye.
They're actually a really nice company with awesome brushes. Really attentive in all my dealings with them. I think it's a small company, so you might have fallen through the cracks. I'd definitely try shooting them another email. Their free catalogues are super neat too.
Thanks for that !
You could also make people look more brown by a lightish blue background.
Alizarin fades in glazes and tints.
Yes…into another beautiful color…all colors shifts into something not originally laid down and much more so if you hang it in the direct sun…which most do not do…use the knowledge to your advantage for price tag and longevity for someone else to get rich off of you…let the rest of it go and let us enjoy our PR83 as we wish…
@@richiejourney1840
"looks like a bruise" hahaha
today we learned a lot about Zorn's mother.
I think Apelle was the one to base on this palette. Thd logic seems that with this basic colors you can produce all the existings hue. Of course the result is not fully saturated, but I love this powerfull and dominance of red.
I also think that with those basic colors, it is easy to paint, produce light and you can be very creative as well.
Modern artists don't really have access to the same colors as Zorn had. The main culprit is the black. Today's Ivory Black is just another black the same as the others, same pigment. Originally it had a bluish cast to it, or so some say. We aren't allowed to use it today, for obvious reasons. One tip I got was that Winton Ivory Black, which is less powerful, and may also have a bluish cast. I bought some, but have not got around to it yet.
But it doesn't end there. Vermilion is gone. Kremer has a lot of yellow ochres, maybe 10 pigments. And we can get lead white, but few are actually using it, judging by the video online.
You can get archivalists pigments. It is not illegal to obtain the required pigments in most countries. Ivory black is NOT just another black nor is it the same pigments in the other blacks. While it is true that it was originally made from burned ivory and slightly different than modern slaughter house charred bones the difference is not that big and it still has a blue violet cast to the eye as well as spectrally measured. I doubt (but not researched) Zorn used true Ivory since it was still more expensive, but he did use 2 ivories from two different manufacturers-one no longer exists and the other’s is not a household name but still in existence but the quality of the paints is really bad. He also used cobalt blue and viridian.
“We aren’t allowed to use it today, for obvious reasons.” Lol do explain why…I use all of the manufactured blacks and “chromatic” mixed blacks as well as my own mixed blacks. ALL blacks are chromatic. No offense, but I’m guessing that you are a modern Colorist Impressionist that does not venture into actual extreme realism?
Winton is a student grade ivory black which is cut with transparent fillers and that is why it is less “powerful”-which is my way of saying less bang for your money OR less tinting strength.
Fewer people are not using lead white because their mommies have made them overly afraid of what’s “under the kitchen sink”-never removing their nipples from the children’s mouths- and thus made them more expensive, plus pigments are industrial driven and they don’t need it so it’s purely an artists thing. I hope you are not afraid to clean your battery cables-if even you know how-since the oxidation is exactly what lead white is…don’t touch them or you could get lead poisoning and die…poor auto mechanics and battery manufacturers…let alone hunters and fishermen…we are all gonna die from lead poisoning…don’t you dare go outside and breath the polluted air…relax, chill, take proper safety measures if your worried about it. Lead white would be my main white if it wasn’t so expensive. I don’t even wear gloves…particles are to big to pass through the skin and I don’t use dry pigments nor do I sand or eat and drink my paints. Live a little and try some.
Hi Scott, Awesome video's! I can't find anyone sharing the information at the level you do.
Is it possible to compare the combination of colors (below) with the colors on your palette?
I started using these a few years ago (especially for portrait’s) after attending some workshops with Robin Eley. A lot of people are using this combination as well.
I think it would be extremely valuable if you could share your experience and thoughts on the colors and mixtures below.
RT Rembrandt: Ultramarine Deep
RT Rembrandt: Transparent Oxide Red
W&N: Terra Rosa
W&N: Permanent Alizarin Crimson
W&N: Cadmium Red
W&N: Yellow Ocre Light
W&N: Titanium White
Good demo. I don’t think I could do without cad orange and raw umber!
The limited Zorn palette was usedin the first century for the Fayum Mummy Portraits. They are amazing paintings, look it up. I found them😊 when trying to trace back portrait painting. fayum is near Ciaro, Egypt. They used those four basic colors’cause that’s what was readily available around 40 AD. Other minerals were added here and there as found. The Met has a portrait, so does the Det institue of art. Other artists throughout history used limited palettes too. What flesh tones you get also has to do with pigment load. Scott, i know you use Winton, so do I, they aren’t pigment heavy like some other lines of paint. Come on you can do better than that. Perhaps you needto take some lessons using that limited palette. Icon painters moving out of encaustic to egg tempra also had limited colors. Are you naïve to think they only used 4 colors? I’m an adult, relatively new to painting, workshopped around, after a decade i’m simplified. Are you using mars black? Odd Nerdrum uses a limited palette, look him up. He’s an incredible master. In any case, use what works for you. I guess after watching you fir ages, I’m dusappointed in your lack of skill to manage this technique. Have you ever tried Egg Tempra, Encaustic? You probably wouldn’t be able to achieve success with those historic mediums either. How about Dumi, these limited color for you too. Lets use Sumi for renaissance copies. I am respectful of your technique and ability, so this grandma makes this entry with respect. You paint with your preferences, that doesn’t mean it’s the only right way. It’s the only right way for your way. You are aware that other colors were
added to Zorn to achieve the blue. A color Lapis Lazuli (?) was used. Yes, premixed colors make painter easier, have you noticed the
Amount of hues in some lines? Charvin, old holland?
amount of colors in certain lines: Charvin, Old Holland? Gosh you’d not need to mix any of your own colors.
It's great and then add the other colors as needed.
I watched a Caravaggio techniques video then this one. The use of the lead white led to his death. Like this video!
Lol…maybe it was the vermillion and eating or inhaling pigments…better live in a plastic bubble if your so worried about it…let it go…
This was really helpful
What do you think of the Odd Nerdrum cult and their worshipping of the Zorn palette/Apelles palette?
The Apelles Odd Nerdrum palette is phenomenal it's like magic. its not the same as the usual Zorn palettes including the one shown here even though it looks similar.
They’re definitely a cult indeed
I love the way they adhere to the old ways. It’s cool and enlightening
Thanks. Great info😊