Man is not helpless! Why are men commanded to repent? If there is no ability it would be absurd to command men to repent! Sin is selfishness! Men will invent many doctrines to divert attention from their selfishness! Sin is a spirit! It is the spirit that is at work in the children of disobedience! Men will not come to the light that they may be cleansed because their deeds are evil! Coming to the light requires an open confession and a full accountability for that sin! There is every trick in the book used to divert from personal responsibility. To hate sin is to act against self! 2 Cor7:10-11 a fool need not stumble!
I don't agree with this teaching at all. This is the typical Protestant position that flows from the Augustinian tradition. The Protestant position is pretty close to the Roman Catholic view of sin. The problem here is that Protestants never hear the fact that the early church saw death as the major problem not sin. Sin is simply the fruit of death 1 Cor. 15:56. It was Anselm who first constructed a theology of satisfaction. Because God is holy He must have a punishment for sin. In this sense God is bound by necessity to punish. He has no freedom to do otherwise. So this view ends up making God controlled by our actions. It was the Augustinian interpretation of Romans 5:12 that took the western tradition away from seeing death as the fruit of Adams sin and put the emphasis on sin instead of death. Because sin became the major problem, death was simply the punishment for sin instead of being the natural by product of Adam separating himself from God's life giving spirit. Augustine only had access to the Latin Vulgate when he interpreted Romans 5:12 He took Romans 5:12 to mean that "we all sinned in Adam". Before Augustine the church fathers believed that Romans 5"12 taught that we sin "because" Adam sinned. Augustine took the idea of sinning "in" Adam and developed it into the idea of imputed guilt to all his posterity. So in the Roman Catholic and Protestant matrix all men have a corrupted nature. The reason the church fathers took the position that all men sin because Adam sinned was the two verses that follow vs 12.. Vs 13 and 14 of that chapter reads, " sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come". The men who lived from Adam to Moses did not have their sin imputed or reckoned to them because the Torah had not been given. This means simply that they had no guilt for their sin. It also means that Adams sin was not imputed to him, nor was sin imputed to those who lived after Adam. This passage teaches that it was death that exercised dominion over these men. The dominion of death came from Adams first sin. This is why Adam has headship because his sin brought the curse of death to everyone after him. The early church believed in a two dimensional view of sin. Sin brings death Romans 6:23. But secondly death causes sin. 1 Cor. 15:56. So in the early church they saw that the wages of sin for Adam was death. But for us the fruit of Adams fist sin is death. For us sin comes from death. The curse of death has made us weak in our flesh. It has subjected us to our passions and causes violence on the earth. This explains why history is characterized by constant war. So because death has entered creation we now live in a world that is warped. The original creation has now put us into a world where nothing has a proper relationship to itself. For this reason sin was seen as a misuse of our energies. All of creation was originally the byproduct of God's energies and now those energies are separated from God's Spirit. We have been separated from God. It is not that we received a sinful nature from Adam. It is more that we inherited a mortal nature from Adam. Death is here and we are not in Eden anymore. You can see this in Romans all through the text. Romans 5:21, "even as sin has reigned in the power of death". Paul in Romans 7 when describing his struggle with sin says, "Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?" When the Roman Catholic church began to put the emphasis on sin instead of death they had to invent the doctrine of Mary's immaculate conception because they understood that if Mary had a sinful nature the incarnation would have been impossible. The Protestants later had to say that the sinful nature is passed from the man and since Christ was born of the Holy Spirit He did not have a sinful nature and was sinless. The early church fathers on the other hand never had this problem. Since they believed that death was the problem and not sin the main point of the incarnation was that Christ assumed our mortal nature and thus subjected himself to the power of death so that He might defeat it. By defeating death Christ conquers the power of sin and is our substitution defeating death, sin and Satan. Keep in mind that there was no theology of Penal substitution as in the west. Penal substitution was the natural byproduct of sin becoming the main problem. The Reformers were Lawyers and they saw the Bible only in legal categories. This is why you find the Reformers inventing all kinds of ideas that never had existed before in church history. Once sin became the major problem you end up with doctrines like Adams Federal Headship, Penal Substitution, the Law Gospel Matrix, Covenant Theology, Forensic Justification and Calvinism. Hebrews tells us why Christ came in the Incarnation. It says, "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives" Hebrew 2:14-15. We are mortal because of Adam. We can only be immortal by grace. "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 1 Cor. 15:45. The early church did not believe that God had to beat up the Son on the cross so that God could stop being angry at them. The western tradition has been corrupted by false ideas and pagan influence. It is to bad that so many people believe teachers like this.?
![[BBST 251] Who is Jesus? - Erik Thoennes](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q7UldEXatpQ/mqdefault.jpg)
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People please listen to the entire teaching. Very good stuff all the way to the end
There is always danger of making hymns scripture! This is man's experience not scriptures! We must stay with the word and proof our position from it!
Man is not helpless! Why are men commanded to repent? If there is no ability it would be absurd to command men to repent!
Sin is selfishness! Men will invent many doctrines to divert attention from their selfishness! Sin is a spirit! It is the spirit that is at work in the children of disobedience! Men will not come to the light that they may be cleansed because their deeds are evil! Coming to the light requires an open confession and a full accountability for that sin!
There is every trick in the book used to divert from personal responsibility.
To hate sin is to act against self! 2 Cor7:10-11 a fool need not stumble!
I don't agree with this teaching at all. This is the typical Protestant position that flows from the Augustinian tradition. The Protestant position is pretty close to the Roman Catholic view of sin. The problem here is that Protestants never hear the fact that the early church saw death as the major problem not sin. Sin is simply the fruit of death 1 Cor. 15:56. It was Anselm who first constructed a theology of satisfaction. Because God is holy He must have a punishment for sin. In this sense God is bound by necessity to punish. He has no freedom to do otherwise. So this view ends up making God controlled by our actions. It was the Augustinian interpretation of Romans 5:12 that took the western tradition away from seeing death as the fruit of Adams sin and put the emphasis on sin instead of death. Because sin became the major problem, death was simply the punishment for sin instead of being the natural by product of Adam separating himself from God's life giving spirit.
Augustine only had access to the Latin Vulgate when he interpreted Romans 5:12 He took Romans 5:12 to mean that "we all sinned in Adam". Before Augustine the church fathers believed that Romans 5"12 taught that we sin "because" Adam sinned. Augustine took the idea of sinning "in" Adam and developed it into the idea of imputed guilt to all his posterity. So in the Roman Catholic and Protestant matrix all men have a corrupted nature.
The reason the church fathers took the position that all men sin because Adam sinned was the two verses that follow vs 12.. Vs 13 and 14 of that chapter reads, " sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come". The men who lived from Adam to Moses did not have their sin imputed or reckoned to them because the Torah had not been given. This means simply that they had no guilt for their sin. It also means that Adams sin was not imputed to him, nor was sin imputed to those who lived after Adam. This passage teaches that it was death that exercised dominion over these men. The dominion of death came from Adams first sin. This is why Adam has headship because his sin brought the curse of death to everyone after him. The early church believed in a two dimensional view of sin. Sin brings death Romans 6:23. But secondly death causes sin. 1 Cor. 15:56. So in the early church they saw that the wages of sin for Adam was death. But for us the fruit of Adams fist sin is death. For us sin comes from death. The curse of death has made us weak in our flesh. It has subjected us to our passions and causes violence on the earth. This explains why history is characterized by constant war.
So because death has entered creation we now live in a world that is warped. The original creation has now put us into a world where nothing has a proper relationship to itself. For this reason sin was seen as a misuse of our energies. All of creation was originally the byproduct of God's energies and now those energies are separated from God's Spirit. We have been separated from God. It is not that we received a sinful nature from Adam. It is more that we inherited a mortal nature from Adam. Death is here and we are not in Eden anymore. You can see this in Romans all through the text. Romans 5:21, "even as sin has reigned in the power of death". Paul in Romans 7 when describing his struggle with sin says, "Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?"
When the Roman Catholic church began to put the emphasis on sin instead of death they had to invent the doctrine of Mary's immaculate conception because they understood that if Mary had a sinful nature the incarnation would have been impossible. The Protestants later had to say that the sinful nature is passed from the man and since Christ was born of the Holy Spirit He did not have a sinful nature and was sinless. The early church fathers on the other hand never had this problem. Since they believed that death was the problem and not sin the main point of the incarnation was that Christ assumed our mortal nature and thus subjected himself to the power of death so that He might defeat it. By defeating death Christ conquers the power of sin and is our substitution defeating death, sin and Satan. Keep in mind that there was no theology of Penal substitution as in the west. Penal substitution was the natural byproduct of sin becoming the main problem. The Reformers were Lawyers and they saw the Bible only in legal categories. This is why you find the Reformers inventing all kinds of ideas that never had existed before in church history. Once sin became the major problem you end up with doctrines like Adams Federal Headship, Penal Substitution, the Law Gospel Matrix, Covenant Theology, Forensic Justification and Calvinism.
Hebrews tells us why Christ came in the Incarnation. It says, "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives" Hebrew 2:14-15. We are mortal because of Adam. We can only be immortal by grace. "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 1 Cor. 15:45.
The early church did not believe that God had to beat up the Son on the cross so that God could stop being angry at them. The western tradition has been corrupted by false ideas and pagan influence. It is to bad that so many people believe teachers like this.?
WOWWWWWW!!!!!! What a great response. Congrats Sir.