I remember the day when I realized that through the power of the gospel, I could be made pure again. I could be innocent. I could have motivations of love instead of desire. Oh what a glorious day it was! Then, to look back over the years and to see it actually taking place? “Worthy is the lamb who was slain!” is all I can say.
When you said "be free of it" it reminded me of my own realization and desire for freedom when I finally repented and it is so good. God has rescued me from sin and is working in me day by day. My struggle with entertainment now lies more in the distraction it can pose. Even in this I know the Lord will see me through, but it is a struggle especially after a long day to not watch that Office episode for the 9000th time and instead do something constructive for the kingdom or for my family or even for myself. The passivity of entertainment is a danger that underlines all the other dangers it poses. And I have to admit I'm not doing a great job in this area. Beautiful teaching, Gavin thank you for continuing to surface these jewels of wisdom from our ancient brothers and sisters.
I feel like watching the office is a lot better than a lot of things Christian’s probably watch. I don’t mean to sound argumentative but it’s definitely the case that many people watch incredibly degenerate media. Especially children’s content being hardly educational anymore. I’ve learned a lot from movies, tv shows, fiction novels, even video games when it comes to really deep and important topics like relationships, love, family, and even understanding violence. I think it’s important for Christian’s to be very discerning about entertainment but we should not lose the beauty and simplicity that art provides us in understanding important issues such as biblical issues. There’s a good reason the office is one of the most popular tv shows of all time you are probably a much funnier person for watching it lol
Adultery is certainly learned. Here in Brazil we have a TV channel called "Globo" which shifted the morality of the population MASSIVELY via its soap operas. When exporting its soap operas to Cabo Verde in Africa, its populace gradually experienced a massive increase in adultery via the subtle messages of "acceptable adulteries" portrayed in the soap operas, as well.
I've recently spent 4 hours playing "Bunny Garden" (an anime dating simulator) yesterday. I went to bed at 1am. Pastor, you don't realise how blessed this video is to me this day 😂. Repentance all the way. I will change through christ. Introverted male young adults are doomed in this entertainment world. 😅
Let even your introverted character be transformed by Christ! I used to be that way, but now I’m both extro and intro when needed although my basic nature is still there but infused by His grace.
Ah, now I see why Augustine was so against the theaters in his writings (I am currently reading The City of God). I thought that in the theaters there were plays like Shakespeare's or Sophocles's tragedies and thought that Augustine is too harsh on entertainment in general. Now I see that I was wrong.
For me the most fundamental lesson I learned from the Holy Spirit on this topic generally (vice, sin, entertainment, etc) is: "Until you stop viewing having your ability to kill yourself limited as oppression, you are enslaved to death." I say it in this way despite it being more confusing sounding because the negative statement of a thing can sometimes be more potent than the positive. You are not more free because you do meth, you are less free. You are not more free because you watch porn, you are less free. These are consuming, enslaving habits that drive you promptly towards demise. That is not freedom. Anything marching you towards death is enslavement. Anything marching you towards life is freedom. Choose Christ and be free to live and live abundantly.
When you were talking about how violence on screen is more than just the fact that the actor doesn't actually die; I couldn't help but think about that line in Gladiator, where Russell Crowe kills the guys, and then screams "Are you not entertained!?". Honestly, I could never get it out of my head that the director intended that question just as much for the audience of his film, as for the audience IN the film, and ever since I understood it in that way, I have found myself grimacing at the gruesome brutality in not just that film, but others as well. I don't get joy out of seeing people savagely dispatched. That said, I think there is merit to violence playing a pivotal role in the aid of storytelling. You can be grossed out, and disturbed when the storyteller intends you to be.
I can't help but think, beyond war movies (Saving Private Ryan, etc.) and the like (Gladiator) which intend to make killing disturbing, movies that use over the top gruesomeness in some profane or trite way are really an attack or diminishment of the image of God. It's become clearer to me that those creating these worlds where the loss of life is flippant or even comical take lightly the sacredness of man and help their audiences to do so in the real world. I especially appreciate idea about entertainment being a catechism is so on point here.
Haha I was really worried about where I thought this was heading because I can think of certain movies where tragic events (sometimes involving violence) are depicted as part of the story, and I feel like to class all of that as bad would do real damage to art generally. However, you recognized the same towards the end. Great video.
I agree that much of what we view as entertainment today is actually just glorifying sin, but a point that also needs to be remembered is how prone to asceticism the early church was. See, for example, Clement of Alexandria's views on hiccuping or smiling. But in general, sure: -Avoid shows that glorify sexual immorality or violence. -Consider whether you're being entertained into passivity or unproductivity. -Always ask yourself, "what is it I'm enjoying about this show?" If it's sinful, let it go. But also remember that storytelling, humor, and imagination are simply tools. They can be used for good or ill. The medium is not the message, and we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I just want to say, thank you for being sensitive to the obsessive compulsive tendencies of your viewer. As someone who suffers from intense OCD, things like this can bring a lot of anxiety, but you handled this very well and with lots of compassion.
This was a very good video. I really appreciated it. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and these convicting calls from the church fathers. On the note of encouragement, as I heard you speak Cyril's well known quote kept ringing in my ears: "Your accumulated offenses do not surpass the multitude of God's mercies; your wounds do not surpass the Great Physician's skill."
Great video! I believe the key of discerning your personal boundaries in media is when you start to glorify, or nullify the evil that is occurring in it. That line can be different for many people so discernment is important. Once again a very good watch, and very informative!
So when it comes to these questions, of entertainment or whatever, I think St. Pauls words in Corinthians should be considered: "All things are lawful to me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." Simply put, do you consume the entertainment, or does it consume you? That's the question we should be asking ourselves as Christians.
This is an excellent video … deserves a part two …. Like it’s so hard especially when you are tired after the days work … to not just seek entertainment…. It’s hard to retrain ourselves to seek entertainment that is edifying or atleast does not deaden ur affections for Christ …. It’s an interesting point about catechesis … I wonder if that’s the reason so many of new movies and tv shows push their lgbtq agenda and very rarely are Christian’s portrayed in good light also in them……it’s hard to be vigilant in ur downtime and to use ur downtime profitably … but feel like this is a major area the enemy is active….eager to hear more good ideas about healthy ways to have downtime without contaminating ur soul… please share more ideas/ strategies or another video on this
Regarding coarse joking, here's what Proverbs 26:18-19 says: "Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbour and says, “I am only joking!”
"The problem with entertainment is not that it has too much joy in it, but that it deadens joy." So true! But let us not be among those who forsake worldly pleasures but make no strong connection with heavenly ones. John 10v10
Revenhills quote hit the nail on the head. “Entertainment is the devil’s substitute for joy. The more joy you have in the Lord the less entertainment you need.”
Our faith is not that fragile. We can certainly use sanctified common sense to discern more honourable forms of entertainment. Seeking a monastic response is a poor response.
@@karlernstbuddenbrock371 My personal philosophy is it can be good/meutral for rest (kind of like Gavin said) but that you need to be spending *more time* in the Scriptures, or other Christian reading (like the church fathers). EDIT: And also not every day and not when you have more important stuff. I pray I'm right about this, because I do tend towards Scrupuloscity but was very lax before
I think that you can learn a lot from TV for instance. Documentaries, travel programmes etc are a great source of knowledge, of the world, of how things work and something of other people’s lives, which connect us with the realities of life. I wouldn’t watch so-called comedy programmes or soap operas, as they are an insult to any Christian’s intelligence! Discernment is the key!
I am particularly disturbed by violence against women and children in film. We all tell ourselves that it is make believe but there are a couple of problems with that. First, it is made to look real for a reason. Was there some degree of abuse that actually occurred? Even if not, we know how women and child actors are treated in the industry and it's NOT good. Second, we see the violence and it affects us (since we can't actively stop the abuse, it creates a passive sense of helplessness in us). At what point are we partakers in a sense that is similar to watching the Gladiators? Again - even if it's not real. As far as watching rated R movies intimacy and sex, well, if I wouldn't watch somebody do something in real life, how the HECK does it make it okay to watch it on film? Does it sanitize it somehow? Make it less deviant to watch? Would any of us really sit next to someone's bed and watch them do what they do on film? We have rationalized and justified this sinful and truly sick behavior to death.
Yep! I justified it as a young christian, but when I truly became born again and the Holy Spirit lives in me it disgusts me. Only the Holy Spirit can transform our mind.
Just found this channel while doing research on Eastern Orthodoxy. This guy is very knowledgeable and seems to value the need for intellectual satisfaction when it comes to some of the more key theologies.
Those christians who watch rated R movies filled with profanities, lies and fornication, only encourage both themselves and the actors/actresses that portray these wicked acts, further down their path to destruction. For Paul tells us that even those who APPROVE of these abominable acts, are too, headed to destruction. By submitting ourselves to movies that blaspheme Christ, celebrate immorality, drunkeness and homosexuality, we have thus given our approval on these things. May God open your eyes and heart on this matter, and give us grace to deny the world and it's lusts.
The problem with things such as various entertainments is usually not that they are bad in themselves, but because they tend to distract us from the greater good of the eternal goal, and they tend to distract us from walking the difficult narrow way that leads to the future eternal life to be awarded on Judgment Day to those who persevere till the end in obedience to Jesus’ various commandments/laws. As Jesus said: “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least [by those] in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does these commandments and teaches them will be called great [by those] in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5.19-20) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise LAWLESSNESS [ie you who disregarded the laws I commanded in Matt 5.20 onwards].’” (Matt 7.21-23)
I've been pursuing novel writing and even scriptwriting as a hobby, but this is good conviction and a reminder that I shouldn't just be writing to gratify myself but make sure what I'm promoting is virtuous.
Love does not delight itself in evil but rejoices with the truth. This is kinda my go to verse as a writer, and also as a watcher/reader. I don't want to create or consume anything that asks the viewer to call something evil good or vice versa, and I don't want voyeurism (e.g. asking the viewer to take pleasure in violence rather than using it to tell a 'true' story.)
I didn't have WiFi for a summer once, and that made me read so much, try to learn the guitar....all sorts of things! I wish I wasn't going back to school so I could keep that up, often.
Dr. Gavin! Great video, just a quick suggestion on something else. Maybe you could make a video about the recently released document from the Dicastery for promoting Cristhian Unity called "The bishop of Rome". The Catholic Church is changing their position about some arguments that have been on debate about that the papacy. God bless you.
“No matter who you are, no matter what you’ve done, you are not beyond the grace of God…. Those words, ‘washing off through grace’, that’s it - that’s the gospel.” I was just thinking the other day how reading the Bible for the first time in my life feels like I’m vomiting out all this pain and sorrow that’s been inside my whole life. Thank you Gavin for what you’re doing here.
Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Elvis was called the King? I think the entertainment industry is a path to destruction for many souls. It's lures people away from God's plan. Lead me not into temptation.
When it comes to depictions today, it depends on whether it's depicted in a way that's supposed to make the audience applaud it or detest it. Both happen. A lot of it also depends on whether the victim is an innocent victim or an oppressor being stopped, and many things get into that gray area in between.
Hi Gavin, please take up Capturing Christianity's offer to discuss the issue of war rape with Randal Rauser. He's a good faith interlocutor and he poses good objections.
Pastor Ortlund, how do you think the discussion in this video apply to more interactive forms of entertainment, such as video games? Is it sinful to play violent video games?
I tell my kids and my students that every time they sing their songs they are meditating. It was hard for me where my own music wasn’t as ubiquitous as it is today.
Great video. Really helped me with my discernment with video games. It’s strange since anytime I was forced to kill in game that wasn’t self defense or protection it just made me feel wrong. I gave up any game that glorifies killing or has any sexual content. Also about the phone it’s definitely true, I used to just be on it as soon I woke up, now I just get ready for work in silence just reflecting with God.
Great video Gavin. I really appreciate your coverage of these subjects. Providing different angles and a sober look at difficult topics. Edit* I also appreciate your respond to how people may potentially or initially respond. This is one thing I also appreciate from early Church history. How when writing letters they anticipate responses because the response from the reader will not be immediate and may not come at all.
Hey Gavin, great video as usual. Not sure I would say you “missed” it, (maybe I just didn’t hear it), but could be worth mentioning that watching something with nudity is different than watching something with violence. Unlike cinematic violence, which isn’t real, nudity in cinema is always real.
Very interesting and thought provoking video. Also, eerie to learn more about how Ancient Rome mirrored contemporary Western media content, and what directions we're seeing productions go in. I've thought long about entertainment that depicts activities listed as sin, or especially with the rise of interactive media, entertainment that allows the user to engage in a virtual act that would, if real, be sinful. From video games to tabletop role playing games, even to children's yard games and cartoons, we're surrounded with examples. In contemplating what God calls us to collectively as well as me specifically, I've come to some conclusions. Note, these are only for simulated acts, since where I'm from, there's effectively no chance of gladiatorial violence as an option. Per issues of adultery, it's best to just avoid it. Movies with graphic content of this variety can be good, but skip the raunchy stuff. It really serves no purpose but to inflame and titillate. Books, same deal. It's easier with books, as skimming through the bad parts is less of an issue than skipping video frames and checking to see if the scene is done. Content that straddles the line between dramatic and licentious is murkier, and might even vary from time to time of observation. Take a romance film with conventionally attractive actors as the lead roles, but that has no explicit scenes. For a happily married couple watching it, the movie might be completely fine, and even take them down memory lane for their own courtship. But for a single person watching it, desperate for companionship and frustrated by the insistence of our culture that they should "get some", even a completely innocent scene with one of the leads merely existing in a flattering light can inflame that viewer's passions. In this instance, we should show grace to our fellow believers and acknowledge that some will have different boundaries than others. Per issues of violence, this gets more interesting. Again, assuming everything is simulated and that during the creation of the simulation no real violent harm is done. I relate to what Gavin was saying about there being a difference between depicted glorification of violence in some media and the honest portrayal of bloody strife in our history or even in worthy tales (see Lord of the Rings). Not all portrayed violence is equal. There's all the difference in the world in the spirit behind the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan vs children playing with squirt guns, snuff films vs Wiley Coyote and the Roadrunner in Looney Tunes, and the defense of Helms Deep in the Two Towers vs the entire Saw franchise. Unlike issues of adultery, there is a critical difference for issues of violence in that viewing violence is not necessarily going to incite the desire to commit violence. In the Beatitudes, Christ says that they were told not to murder, but He says that they are not even to be angry with one another. Wrath, bloodlust, sadism, or cruelty in general are the root sins. What we view in terms of violence should be measured against "Does this make me angrier, crueler, or excited by the idea of causing pain?" And while it might seem like an easy answer to that, it can be a subtler thing than you would think. Then there is the question of violence in games. Whether video game, pretend play, historical re-enactment, or martial arts, violence is often a mechanic used in the game to determine a victor. There have been many studies on this, some of better quality than others. I'm inclined to apply the same rubric as for violence above - if the game makes you excited about the idea of hurting other people, it's not a good game. On the other hand, if it's something like a team based war game that encourages cooperation and skill while also educating the players on some aspects of what war is like, that can be healthy. Provided you aren't overly competitive and that you remember common courtesy to whomever else is playing. That's a separate issue of simple brotherliness. I went through a period where I wasn't sure if any kind of video game or violent simulation was acceptable for God. During Lent that year, I fasted from such games and studied. Even though I came to the conclusions I have above, I'm grateful for that time of fasting and contemplation in getting there. A blog by a pastor who used Dungeons and Dragons as both a game and a teaching tool called the Way, the Truth, and the Dice really helped me see more clearly some of the issues I had thought about as well as those that hadn't even occurred to me when I started that journey.
I've always thought that the church needs a more articulated theology of fun, especially on the local church level. One of the biggest misconceptions that I find in non-Christians is the idea that being Christian involves never having any fun of any kind...I always think of Mencken's line that puritanism is the fear that someone, somewhere, might be happy. This misconception is probably due, in part, to a distorted view of "fun," but I also think that there is a tradition of Christians viewing fun/pleasure with suspicion, as if it's at best a waste of time and, at worst, sinful in some way. Also, we need to be clear with our definitions, as "fun" or "entertainment" or "pleasure" can encompass a wide range of activities and seem to largely be relevant to each individual. Like, Christians probably shouldn't be watching snuff films or movies with tons of gratuitous sex, but I really don't think that my mom playing solitaire on her computer for 30-minutes a week is the devil's doing.
How can you present the deceitful dangers and the sinfulness of sexual entertainment in early church history, whether explicit or with humor, along with the parallels of it in present history and then turn around and say "hey, I am not in any way, shape or form saying that acting is a sin, no matter what the context is. I have friends who are actors..." What?? You took a stand on biblical truth and then caved.
Please address swearing (cussing, cursing, etc.)! It seems to be one of the biggest points of disagreement between Christians of differing generations.
I really enjoyed the points you made towards the end. Specifically in relation to art and discernment over how Christians should engage with entertainment. When you brought up violence or “rated R” movies and the possible legalism that some Christians may subscribe to there: I was thinking how my views have been challenged and have shifted some throughout the years. Personally I also look at the context of the story in a film or tv show. I don’t always do things perfectly but I think a good way I discern what I choose to watch or even play (if o play a video game) is the overall themes, story, characters, and message. I may not always agree with characters choices but if film and art help us be more empathetic as Christians, or if the stories depict the sinful and broken side of humanity well enough (without be too indulgent) then I’d say that engagement with and even enjoyment of those medium can help us really think and wrestle with the deeper aspects of the human experience. At least that is my take. Of course we rely on Christ for our purification for sin, and rest in his grace (PTL). But as a fan of movies, video games, and even music, I can’t help but think you are hitting it spot on with basically promoting us as Christians to be mindful of what be partake in, and how to appropriately engage with art, culture, (entertainment etc) in a more godly and thoughtful way!
Very well done and a much needed topic. Contemporary entertainment has become repulsive to Christianity and we, and myself in particular, would do well to remember that.
Well handled without shaming folks, that's wisdom! I've heard it said, it's shame that holds a particular sin to someone.. Bring it out into the open with a trustworthy Pastor, Elder, Brother or Sister in Christ, or understanding spouse, and let the shame and sin both go where they belong, to the cross where they were nailed! Thank You for that message of freedom & grace Brother Gavin! 🙏🕊️👍
Thank you for the advice! I do believe that through discernment we can find even seemingly horrific media, replete with death and sexual immorality like Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul to be catechistic in a positive way, because even those shows themselves show the devastating and unenvious those things are. I was never tempted by drugs, but Breaking Bad also cemented my aversion to that, and both of these shows demonstrate what terrible consequences pride leads to. As I watched those shows (and many others) I kept thinking “if only they had Christian values none of those people would’ve been hurt”
I feel like I know I keep repeating it over and over again but thank you soooooo much dearest brother Gavin. What a subject to tackle and how brilliant a job you have done again! Love your pastoral conclusions full of wisdom. God bless
I do not think that seeing something bad in itself it bad; it is only bad when we are meant to see the bad thing as a good thing. So, I don't mind seeing a criminal in a movie, so long as he's not the main character and you're not meant to root him on. I don't mind seeing adultery in a movie, so long as it's not portrayed as romantic and the plot doesn't just serve to justify the adultery. I don't mind seeing murder, so long as it actually appears brutal. Real life has bad things in it, so if we are unwilling to see those things, it means that we are unwilling to learn about or accept the world the way it really is. It is only when we take pleasure in bad things being made to seem good that it is bad.
My only worry is about the actors doing it. How would it affect them? It pains to imagine that you might stumble so that others can be edified or something. Obviously, in books and pictures, no one is involved, so no issues there ig.
It was really wonderful! I am a Roman Catholic but a huge fan of your ministry. To get an autograph of yours was awesome and you were so kind in taking my card. Thanks for this amazing experience :)
I wrestle with this subject too, so I appreciate the pastoral thoughts and balance here. I have found the concepts of "do all things to the glory of God" and "do not cause a brother to stumble" to be very helpful here in the discernment process. Regarding violence, I understand your point about training the conscience, but the difference you mentioned between the actual killing in the gladiator arena and that in a movie/video game is still a critical one. There is a spectrum between glorifying real violence and kids playing cops and robbers with water guns. I have similar thoughts about slapstick humor, not that I get to define the rules. :) The more something in media impersonates the real thing, the more seriousness needs to be applied to it. Also, if it intends to awaken sin even if it is unrealistic, that would be a problem as well.
The issue is that violence in media has never shown to change behavior, especially the same way that sexual sin does. There's a reason why Jesus warns against even looking in lust but does not do the same with looking at violence. There is no denying that there is an impact. But to put it on the same level of sexual sin would be a grave error. The violence also depends on the context of it. Is it for fun or is it to illustrate a tragedy (aka are we glorifying it or using it as a device to demonstrate realities of life like the scriptures use violence)? It is important to know that violence is not a black and white issue.
Yes yes he makes us love something that is against God and when he tempts it feels easy to fall into his trap. Like pornography, movies, cinema, k drama😜, kpop, pop music, comedy shows, web series, etc...
For anyone who sees this: He basically says that there are good and virtuous things in pagan literature/poets/etc. but we must avoid the bad and not allow it to poison our souls and minds with vice, immorality, murder, etc.
@@1Whipperin Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said not to use a title called doctor. Do you call your dad father?? Jesus says not to do that from your logic too 💀
@@raphaelfeneje486Matthew 23: 8-12 Jesus commanded against titles amongst the brethren. Calling your dad father is in reference to your family and biological relationship and is not a title amongst the brethren so that is not what Jesus commanded against. All believers are equal. There is no hierarchy in the Church. Paul never referred to himself as Apostle Paul. He referred to himself as Paul, an apostle.
@@1Whipperin You literally refuted yourself. Matt.23.9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Is father a title your dad was given when he was born?? LOL. Paul, an apostle. Is the "apostle" a title or a name given to Paul?? That's the same as Doctor Gavin. Stop reading into the Bible what it doesn't intend. Jesus clearly was talking about those Pharisees that were acting as though they were above everyone. Aaron the highpriest is a title. We can say Highpriest Aaron! Your argument is moot!! We can say Apostle Paul because Paul is an Apostle and that's a title, not his biological name. You've literally turned to the Pharisees that were trying to legalize religion.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund! I've been thinking about this a long time and it especially hit me when I watched gladiator, because I wondered what the difference between me as a viewer and the actual viewers in the time of the Romans was. On top of this purity is a constant struggle. Please pray that the Lord would guide me to a clean and beautiful path.
When it comes to violence in movies, would you distinguish between violence that is virtue-affirming (e.g. Theoden charging into battle against hordes of orcs) and that which is not (e.g. horror movies)?
Really edifying! Thanks for posting. I am reading Presley's Cultural Sanctification. It would be helpful and fun to hear you two in a give and take conversation about the early Church and how we live today.
Very thankful for this video. Honestly, growing up in a somewhat fundamentalist home, I sort of went to the other side of the spectrum and have not given very much thought as to the kind of media I exposed myself to in my adult life. My brother went to film school, and I was very influenced by a lot of the movies and shows he was watching, although I in no way blame him. I think he was kind of reacting to that fundamentalist attitude as well. I can definitely see some movies, like Lord of the Rings or even something grittier like No Country for Old Men, express violence to tell a story rather than to revel in the violence or make light of it. However, I wonder about movies like John Wick or Guardians of the Galaxy where violence is done in a flippant and careless way, and the violence itself is what is entertaining. Honestly, I haven't thought about this seriously until now. Thank you for bringing this to my heart. I will be meditating on it. Another thought I have now is whether taking out some of the blood and guts from violent movies in the past actually made things worse. Like, it's hard to take a scene of violence seriously when there 's nothing shocking about it. I wonder if this helped desensitize us to the point where now, gratuitous gore is present even in movies that treat violence flippantly. It's almost like taking out the gore was a step towards normalizing violence, which is now normalized with gore.
One of the most convicting scriptures that helped shape me in choosing reading and movies is found in Psalm 11:5, “he who loves violence my soul hates.” I love mysteries but I choose them carefully. Dorothy Sayers and Ellis Peters (Brother Cadfael especially) are two of my favorite authors. Richard Osman is fun and funny and so is Martha Grimes. But I draw the line at an author’s preoccupation with the gruesome and twisted, for example Patricia Cornwell. Just my own personal conviction! Thanks so much for this, Gavin. I am saving this to use in teaching my children.
I spent basically the first 40 years of my life addicted to TV. I had a collection of over 1000 movies, lots of TV shows, and 100s of video games. After I became a Christian I came to realize how sinful it all really was, and the Holy Spirit convicted me to repent of it all. I've gotten rid of all if it, and I only watch Christian content now, mostly on UA-cam. It wasn't until I became free from the adduction to cultural entertainment that I realized the true extent of the damage it had done. It's difficult to put it into words, but people think it's no big deal, and it's way more serious than they realize. When people think of p*rn they think of only the stuff labeled as such. The truth is that most of the entertainment we consume is also p*rn in one form or another. Whether it's vulgar humor, or just all of the very suggestive visuals, or even the glorification of violence. I spent way too much of my life watching it all. To the point where I have a substantial amount of it burned into my brain. I realize now that I wasn't just watching it. I was worshiping it, as most people are. When you devote that much time out of your life to something, that is a form of worship. When you repent of it, none of it really tastes the same anymore, and you can see how captive everyone is to their worship of entertainment.
I love this. I found "The Dangers of a Shallow Faith" by AW Tozer and "The Mortification of Sin in Believers" by John Owen great in this area. Also I remember RC Sproul teaching on Christian liberty, the weaker brother and legalism that was extremely helpful in understanding these things in Scripture and in life better.
I know that this was in address to what the Early Church thought regarding entertainment, but the thought that I had always received was narrative pointing of a story and whether it was elevating us towards virtue or degrading our thoughts. The benchmark for the content within the story for said narrative purpose was always the Bible itself.
Really appreciate this video. One thing I’ve noticed among some Christians is a lack of concern about the overtly sexually explicit nature of certain movies or shows (e.g. Game of Thrones, etc.) which I would’ve thought would be generally agreed on by Christians as spiritually unhealthy to watch and, at least for straight guys like myself, clearly feeds on lust as part of the entertainment. Obviously the question of violence glorification is important as well, but would you agree that this kind of hyper-sexualized media should be pretty universally shirked by Christians instead of viewed as a disputable matter of conscience (as I've observed be the case with some)?
I reckon that the "fornication" forbidden in Acts 15. 20 & 29 referred to the entertainments common among the ancient pagans (and now sadly very much present in our own day via TV, film, concerts, theatre etc.).
Would it be wrong then to watch combat sports? MMA, UFC, etc… Should we practice combat sports? What would the church fathers say? What does the Bible say? Great video!
Recently I have come into conflict with literature that is damaging to the soul. I have a close coworker (non-believer) who consumes a large amount of "smut" sexually explicit novels. I have learned a few of the authors and books as a means of avoiding those things, but have found professing believers who are also reading these books. It's very easy for them to say "oh, I'm not reading it for that reason" or "I just read it for the plot". It's also difficult to call these things out as damaging for both my non-believer friends and my Christian friends because both will become heavily offended though for different reasons 😅.
This was great! Thanks for the insightful commentary. I feel like we can’t admonish anyone about their entertainment without coming across judgmental and at the same time be gracious toward others and their walk with Christ and to look at our own hearts first.
You only have to watch entertainments for about 20 to 30 years before you begin to realize that they have begun t o repeat themselves. You begin seeing the same plots, the same themes, the same arguments dressed up in different clothes. That's when you realize that you've been sucking on an empty straw all your life. I think C.S. Lewis said something like "we often chose pleasure rather than joy because pleasure is easier to come by." I grew up in a Christian tradition that, in its inception, believed that a Christian should only the read the Bible. That started to lose its grip when the men decided it wasn't evil to have television for watching ball games. Two books I found helpful for finding a balance: The Liberated Imagination: Thinking Christianly About the Arts by Leland Ryken The Christian, the Arts, and Truth: Regaining the Vision of Greatness by Frank E. Gaebelein
Gavin, what would you think of this claim: While Catholics, EO, etc claim to be closest to the early church in liturgy and doctrine, on THIS issue it’s actually Amish and Mennonites who are closest to the early church.
I love most of your stuff, the sad irony is the Amish agree with 100% of everything you just said, but unfortunately as they don't use electronics to see this, and most people think I am stronger than my desires, and most are not strong willed and more prevalent today is, our desires become our identity. If only young people learned mote from cs lewis and less from Taylor swift.
Wonderful video! It's refreshing to look at church history and see beyond specific doctrines and debates. For a while I've felt that Christians have fell short in this area, especially with consuming TV shows. I always wonder to myself where people find the time to watch so much to begin with!
So glad you brought this up. Ive been in the MMA scene for over a year now and there is... a LOT of sin. But I enjoy martial arts, I enjoy sparring and Ive had the opportunity to share the gospel with some of the guys at my gym. I also enjoy playing videogames - I found my time spent in this area has decreased significantly the more I spend time with the Lord in prayer and study (well, duh), but I still come around to it here and there and find opportunities to share the gospel with other sincere gamers. Ultimately, I've been asking myself 1) "How does this affect the posture of my heart towards Christ?" and 2) Is this pulling me away from time spent with the Lord?
Gavin, you briefly mentioned that the book "A Trail of Blood" was problematic. My grandpa, who attends a Southern Baptist church, heard I was getting into church history and suggested the book to me. He came over one night and gave it to me, saying it had been instrumental in his Baptist upbringing and that he’s given it to many people. I mentioned my concerns about its historical accuracy, which made me feel terrible because he was so happy to give it to me. He told me to read it and said, "you’ll see," acknowledging it's not perfect and has some grammatical errors but would illuminate church history. I stayed up until 1 a.m. reading it, and while there were moments that raised red flags for me, other times I thought, "this contradicts everything I know about the early church." Sorry for the long message, but have you considered doing a short video covering the problematic parts of the book? I don't know what to tell my grandpa when he asks how I liked it, other than "it was interesting."
YES! Very thankful for the last remarks about art. I totally agree that we have to "recapture" the different areas of art as Christians. As an aspiring game developer I hope to be able to contribute my part in this very youngest form of art :) Making games is hard, but it is good. Also, very important remarks about "how are things depicted" or, as I would describe it, "what is the intention of the work".
Most of us will be watching this video with constant distraction from our devices, necessitating a proper and careful listening of this video at a dedicated time.
Really good podcast! I do believe you are spot on with your assessment. I remember years ago when Rene Russo was wanting to be in The Thomas Crown Affair, even though it had nudity and sex scenes in which she would need to do, she went ahead and did the film; even after claiming she was a devout Christian at the time. That was when she lost all credibility. Very sad. Matthew
I remember the day when I realized that through the power of the gospel, I could be made pure again. I could be innocent. I could have motivations of love instead of desire. Oh what a glorious day it was! Then, to look back over the years and to see it actually taking place? “Worthy is the lamb who was slain!” is all I can say.
amen!
🙏🙏
Praise Christ!
Worthy He is, indeed!
Praise be to God!
If you think I'm gonna actually sit here and watch a 36 minute video about if church fathers back in the day would watch TV....well you'd be right
When you said "be free of it" it reminded me of my own realization and desire for freedom when I finally repented and it is so good. God has rescued me from sin and is working in me day by day. My struggle with entertainment now lies more in the distraction it can pose. Even in this I know the Lord will see me through, but it is a struggle especially after a long day to not watch that Office episode for the 9000th time and instead do something constructive for the kingdom or for my family or even for myself. The passivity of entertainment is a danger that underlines all the other dangers it poses. And I have to admit I'm not doing a great job in this area. Beautiful teaching, Gavin thank you for continuing to surface these jewels of wisdom from our ancient brothers and sisters.
I feel like watching the office is a lot better than a lot of things Christian’s probably watch. I don’t mean to sound argumentative but it’s definitely the case that many people watch incredibly degenerate media. Especially children’s content being hardly educational anymore. I’ve learned a lot from movies, tv shows, fiction novels, even video games when it comes to really deep and important topics like relationships, love, family, and even understanding violence. I think it’s important for Christian’s to be very discerning about entertainment but we should not lose the beauty and simplicity that art provides us in understanding important issues such as biblical issues. There’s a good reason the office is one of the most popular tv shows of all time you are probably a much funnier person for watching it lol
@@jaymonpauling4835 I love The Office. I was just making fun of myself for watching it so much, haha. 😂
@@BrianWright-mi3lc I figured lol, it’s just important that Christian’s not dismiss art and popular media like Gavin seems to do in this video.
@@jaymonpauling4835 Ok I see! I agree with you. I will say though, I have it on good authority that Gavin also loves The Office. 😜
Adultery is certainly learned. Here in Brazil we have a TV channel called "Globo" which shifted the morality of the population MASSIVELY via its soap operas. When exporting its soap operas to Cabo Verde in Africa, its populace gradually experienced a massive increase in adultery via the subtle messages of "acceptable adulteries" portrayed in the soap operas, as well.
Brasil mencionado ✝🟨🟩
Huehuehue brbr
I've recently spent 4 hours playing "Bunny Garden" (an anime dating simulator) yesterday. I went to bed at 1am. Pastor, you don't realise how blessed this video is to me this day 😂. Repentance all the way. I will change through christ. Introverted male young adults are doomed in this entertainment world. 😅
Let even your introverted character be transformed by Christ!
I used to be that way, but now I’m both extro and intro when needed although my basic nature is still there but infused by His grace.
My heart is with you man
You can be introverted and not be on dating simulators lol
@@emmagrace6396 indeed ;)
"Entertainment is catechesis" is very true, never heard someone phrase it like that before. Good stuff Gav
Ah, now I see why Augustine was so against the theaters in his writings (I am currently reading The City of God). I thought that in the theaters there were plays like Shakespeare's or Sophocles's tragedies and thought that Augustine is too harsh on entertainment in general. Now I see that I was wrong.
For me the most fundamental lesson I learned from the Holy Spirit on this topic generally (vice, sin, entertainment, etc) is:
"Until you stop viewing having your ability to kill yourself limited as oppression, you are enslaved to death."
I say it in this way despite it being more confusing sounding because the negative statement of a thing can sometimes be more potent than the positive. You are not more free because you do meth, you are less free. You are not more free because you watch porn, you are less free. These are consuming, enslaving habits that drive you promptly towards demise. That is not freedom. Anything marching you towards death is enslavement. Anything marching you towards life is freedom.
Choose Christ and be free to live and live abundantly.
Amen!
When you were talking about how violence on screen is more than just the fact that the actor doesn't actually die; I couldn't help but think about that line in Gladiator, where Russell Crowe kills the guys, and then screams "Are you not entertained!?". Honestly, I could never get it out of my head that the director intended that question just as much for the audience of his film, as for the audience IN the film, and ever since I understood it in that way, I have found myself grimacing at the gruesome brutality in not just that film, but others as well. I don't get joy out of seeing people savagely dispatched. That said, I think there is merit to violence playing a pivotal role in the aid of storytelling. You can be grossed out, and disturbed when the storyteller intends you to be.
I can't help but think, beyond war movies (Saving Private Ryan, etc.) and the like (Gladiator) which intend to make killing disturbing, movies that use over the top gruesomeness in some profane or trite way are really an attack or diminishment of the image of God. It's become clearer to me that those creating these worlds where the loss of life is flippant or even comical take lightly the sacredness of man and help their audiences to do so in the real world. I especially appreciate idea about entertainment being a catechism is so on point here.
Haha I was really worried about where I thought this was heading because I can think of certain movies where tragic events (sometimes involving violence) are depicted as part of the story, and I feel like to class all of that as bad would do real damage to art generally. However, you recognized the same towards the end. Great video.
I agree that much of what we view as entertainment today is actually just glorifying sin, but a point that also needs to be remembered is how prone to asceticism the early church was. See, for example, Clement of Alexandria's views on hiccuping or smiling.
But in general, sure:
-Avoid shows that glorify sexual immorality or violence.
-Consider whether you're being entertained into passivity or unproductivity.
-Always ask yourself, "what is it I'm enjoying about this show?" If it's sinful, let it go.
But also remember that storytelling, humor, and imagination are simply tools. They can be used for good or ill. The medium is not the message, and we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Hiccupping? Oh please tell! What was bad about hiccupping?! I myself am plagued by violent hiccups hence my interest.
Doing a study on food by the church fathers is also fascinating
So far they were definitely against overeating, calling it a minor sin (St. Clement of Alexandria)
I was thinking the same thing. That'd be a good video, Gavin!
I just want to say, thank you for being sensitive to the obsessive compulsive tendencies of your viewer. As someone who suffers from intense OCD, things like this can bring a lot of anxiety, but you handled this very well and with lots of compassion.
This was a very good video. I really appreciated it. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and these convicting calls from the church fathers. On the note of encouragement, as I heard you speak Cyril's well known quote kept ringing in my ears: "Your accumulated offenses do not surpass the multitude of God's mercies; your wounds do not surpass the Great Physician's skill."
"your wounds do not surpass the Great Physician's skill" -- love that
Chrysostam would watch Truth Unites.
Great video! I believe the key of discerning your personal boundaries in media is when you start to glorify, or nullify the evil that is occurring in it. That line can be different for many people so discernment is important. Once again a very good watch, and very informative!
There is a great metaphor that Nate Wilson makes: Stories are soul food. What are you feeding your soul?
Got to stop polluting my mind with things that I'd usually call fun. Have to reform my mind. God's grace is sufficient. God bless you immensely ❤🙏✝️
So when it comes to these questions, of entertainment or whatever, I think St. Pauls words in Corinthians should be considered:
"All things are lawful to me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."
Simply put, do you consume the entertainment, or does it consume you? That's the question we should be asking ourselves as Christians.
Amen.
This is an excellent video … deserves a part two …. Like it’s so hard especially when you are tired after the days work … to not just seek entertainment…. It’s hard to retrain ourselves to seek entertainment that is edifying or atleast does not deaden ur affections for Christ …. It’s an interesting point about catechesis … I wonder if that’s the reason so many of new movies and tv shows push their lgbtq agenda and very rarely are Christian’s portrayed in good light also in them……it’s hard to be vigilant in ur downtime and to use ur downtime profitably … but feel like this is a major area the enemy is active….eager to hear more good ideas about healthy ways to have downtime without contaminating ur soul… please share more ideas/ strategies or another video on this
Regarding coarse joking, here's what Proverbs 26:18-19 says:
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbour and says, “I am only joking!”
"The problem with entertainment is not that it has too much joy in it, but that it deadens joy." So true! But let us not be among those who forsake worldly pleasures but make no strong connection with heavenly ones. John 10v10
Revenhills quote hit the nail on the head. “Entertainment is the devil’s substitute for joy. The more joy you have in the Lord the less entertainment you need.”
Thanks for sharing. Love Leonard Ravenhill!
Our faith is not that fragile. We can certainly use sanctified common sense to discern more honourable forms of entertainment. Seeking a monastic response is a poor response.
@@karlernstbuddenbrock371 My personal philosophy is it can be good/meutral for rest (kind of like Gavin said) but that you need to be spending *more time* in the Scriptures, or other Christian reading (like the church fathers). EDIT: And also not every day and not when you have more important stuff. I pray I'm right about this, because I do tend towards Scrupuloscity but was very lax before
But what kind of entertainment? Even heavily religious movies like the ones of Tarkovsky or books like the Quixote can be labeled as "entertainment"
I think that you can learn a lot from TV for instance. Documentaries, travel programmes etc are a great source of knowledge, of the world, of how things work and something of other people’s lives, which connect us with the realities of life. I wouldn’t watch so-called comedy programmes or soap operas, as they are an insult to any Christian’s intelligence! Discernment is the key!
I am particularly disturbed by violence against women and children in film. We all tell ourselves that it is make believe but there are a couple of problems with that.
First, it is made to look real for a reason. Was there some degree of abuse that actually occurred? Even if not, we know how women and child actors are treated in the industry and it's NOT good.
Second, we see the violence and it affects us (since we can't actively stop the abuse, it creates a passive sense of helplessness in us). At what point are we partakers in a sense that is similar to watching the Gladiators? Again - even if it's not real.
As far as watching rated R movies intimacy and sex, well, if I wouldn't watch somebody do something in real life, how the HECK does it make it okay to watch it on film? Does it sanitize it somehow? Make it less deviant to watch? Would any of us really sit next to someone's bed and watch them do what they do on film?
We have rationalized and justified this sinful and truly sick behavior to death.
Yep! I justified it as a young christian, but when I truly became born again and the Holy Spirit lives in me it disgusts me. Only the Holy Spirit can transform our mind.
Just found this channel while doing research on Eastern Orthodoxy. This guy is very knowledgeable and seems to value the need for intellectual satisfaction when it comes to some of the more key theologies.
Those christians who watch rated R movies filled with profanities, lies and fornication, only encourage both themselves and the actors/actresses that portray these wicked acts, further down their path to destruction. For Paul tells us that even those who APPROVE of these abominable acts, are too, headed to destruction. By submitting ourselves to movies that blaspheme Christ, celebrate immorality, drunkeness and homosexuality, we have thus given our approval on these things. May God open your eyes and heart on this matter, and give us grace to deny the world and it's lusts.
The problem with things such as various entertainments is usually not that they are bad in themselves, but because they tend to distract us from the greater good of the eternal goal, and they tend to distract us from walking the difficult narrow way that leads to the future eternal life to be awarded on Judgment Day to those who persevere till the end in obedience to Jesus’ various commandments/laws.
As Jesus said:
“Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least [by those] in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does these commandments and teaches them will be called great [by those] in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5.19-20)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise LAWLESSNESS [ie you who disregarded the laws I commanded in Matt 5.20 onwards].’” (Matt 7.21-23)
I've been pursuing novel writing and even scriptwriting as a hobby, but this is good conviction and a reminder that I shouldn't just be writing to gratify myself but make sure what I'm promoting is virtuous.
Man, a few things you said in this video surely convicted me. Bravo, Dr. Ortlund. May the Lord bless you!
Love does not delight itself in evil but rejoices with the truth. This is kinda my go to verse as a writer, and also as a watcher/reader. I don't want to create or consume anything that asks the viewer to call something evil good or vice versa, and I don't want voyeurism (e.g. asking the viewer to take pleasure in violence rather than using it to tell a 'true' story.)
I didn't have WiFi for a summer once, and that made me read so much, try to learn the guitar....all sorts of things! I wish I wasn't going back to school so I could keep that up, often.
Good ol Gavin always dropping pertinent content to keep us sober and introspective
Time-stamp
7:05 - 1 Timothy 6:8 and Proverbs 30:8
8:29 - entertainment is formative, a teaching
Dr. Gavin! Great video, just a quick suggestion on something else.
Maybe you could make a video about the recently released document from the Dicastery for promoting Cristhian Unity called "The bishop of Rome". The Catholic Church is changing their position about some arguments that have been on debate about that the papacy.
God bless you.
Well that was convicting and thought provoking… thanks Gavin lol
This was so helpful and balanced. Thank you for addressing a controversial issue in a direct and grace-filled way.
“No matter who you are, no matter what you’ve done, you are not beyond the grace of God…. Those words, ‘washing off through grace’, that’s it - that’s the gospel.” I was just thinking the other day how reading the Bible for the first time in my life feels like I’m vomiting out all this pain and sorrow that’s been inside my whole life. Thank you Gavin for what you’re doing here.
Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Elvis was called the King? I think the entertainment industry is a path to destruction for many souls. It's lures people away from God's plan. Lead me not into temptation.
And Michael Jackson was called the King of Pop. You make an excellent point.
There’s this really funny song written where this guy calls Elvis a false idol.
Or the Beatles saying they were bigger than Jesus, blasphemy
And Dwayne Johnson calling himself "The Rock" - Jesus Christ is the Rock!
When it comes to depictions today, it depends on whether it's depicted in a way that's supposed to make the audience applaud it or detest it. Both happen. A lot of it also depends on whether the victim is an innocent victim or an oppressor being stopped, and many things get into that gray area in between.
I disagree. I think the main difference that is important is if the violence on the screen is intended to entertain or not.
Hi Gavin, please take up Capturing Christianity's offer to discuss the issue of war rape with Randal Rauser. He's a good faith interlocutor and he poses good objections.
Pastor Ortlund, how do you think the discussion in this video apply to more interactive forms of entertainment, such as video games? Is it sinful to play violent video games?
Pastor? Where in the Bible did anyone have the title Pastor? Thank you.
I tell my kids and my students that every time they sing their songs they are meditating. It was hard for me where my own music wasn’t as ubiquitous as it is today.
I think the church fathers would have watched the euros though ⚽😄
Always appreciate the balanced approach from this channel. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund.
Great video. Really helped me with my discernment with video games. It’s strange since anytime I was forced to kill in game that wasn’t self defense or protection it just made me feel wrong. I gave up any game that glorifies killing or has any sexual content. Also about the phone it’s definitely true, I used to just be on it as soon I woke up, now I just get ready for work in silence just reflecting with God.
Great video Gavin. I really appreciate your coverage of these subjects. Providing different angles and a sober look at difficult topics.
Edit* I also appreciate your respond to how people may potentially or initially respond. This is one thing I also appreciate from early Church history. How when writing letters they anticipate responses because the response from the reader will not be immediate and may not come at all.
Hey Gavin, great video as usual. Not sure I would say you “missed” it, (maybe I just didn’t hear it), but could be worth mentioning that watching something with nudity is different than watching something with violence. Unlike cinematic violence, which isn’t real, nudity in cinema is always real.
Very interesting and thought provoking video. Also, eerie to learn more about how Ancient Rome mirrored contemporary Western media content, and what directions we're seeing productions go in.
I've thought long about entertainment that depicts activities listed as sin, or especially with the rise of interactive media, entertainment that allows the user to engage in a virtual act that would, if real, be sinful. From video games to tabletop role playing games, even to children's yard games and cartoons, we're surrounded with examples. In contemplating what God calls us to collectively as well as me specifically, I've come to some conclusions. Note, these are only for simulated acts, since where I'm from, there's effectively no chance of gladiatorial violence as an option.
Per issues of adultery, it's best to just avoid it. Movies with graphic content of this variety can be good, but skip the raunchy stuff. It really serves no purpose but to inflame and titillate. Books, same deal. It's easier with books, as skimming through the bad parts is less of an issue than skipping video frames and checking to see if the scene is done.
Content that straddles the line between dramatic and licentious is murkier, and might even vary from time to time of observation. Take a romance film with conventionally attractive actors as the lead roles, but that has no explicit scenes. For a happily married couple watching it, the movie might be completely fine, and even take them down memory lane for their own courtship. But for a single person watching it, desperate for companionship and frustrated by the insistence of our culture that they should "get some", even a completely innocent scene with one of the leads merely existing in a flattering light can inflame that viewer's passions. In this instance, we should show grace to our fellow believers and acknowledge that some will have different boundaries than others.
Per issues of violence, this gets more interesting. Again, assuming everything is simulated and that during the creation of the simulation no real violent harm is done. I relate to what Gavin was saying about there being a difference between depicted glorification of violence in some media and the honest portrayal of bloody strife in our history or even in worthy tales (see Lord of the Rings). Not all portrayed violence is equal. There's all the difference in the world in the spirit behind the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan vs children playing with squirt guns, snuff films vs Wiley Coyote and the Roadrunner in Looney Tunes, and the defense of Helms Deep in the Two Towers vs the entire Saw franchise.
Unlike issues of adultery, there is a critical difference for issues of violence in that viewing violence is not necessarily going to incite the desire to commit violence. In the Beatitudes, Christ says that they were told not to murder, but He says that they are not even to be angry with one another. Wrath, bloodlust, sadism, or cruelty in general are the root sins. What we view in terms of violence should be measured against "Does this make me angrier, crueler, or excited by the idea of causing pain?" And while it might seem like an easy answer to that, it can be a subtler thing than you would think.
Then there is the question of violence in games. Whether video game, pretend play, historical re-enactment, or martial arts, violence is often a mechanic used in the game to determine a victor. There have been many studies on this, some of better quality than others. I'm inclined to apply the same rubric as for violence above - if the game makes you excited about the idea of hurting other people, it's not a good game. On the other hand, if it's something like a team based war game that encourages cooperation and skill while also educating the players on some aspects of what war is like, that can be healthy. Provided you aren't overly competitive and that you remember common courtesy to whomever else is playing. That's a separate issue of simple brotherliness.
I went through a period where I wasn't sure if any kind of video game or violent simulation was acceptable for God. During Lent that year, I fasted from such games and studied. Even though I came to the conclusions I have above, I'm grateful for that time of fasting and contemplation in getting there. A blog by a pastor who used Dungeons and Dragons as both a game and a teaching tool called the Way, the Truth, and the Dice really helped me see more clearly some of the issues I had thought about as well as those that hadn't even occurred to me when I started that journey.
I've always thought that the church needs a more articulated theology of fun, especially on the local church level. One of the biggest misconceptions that I find in non-Christians is the idea that being Christian involves never having any fun of any kind...I always think of Mencken's line that puritanism is the fear that someone, somewhere, might be happy. This misconception is probably due, in part, to a distorted view of "fun," but I also think that there is a tradition of Christians viewing fun/pleasure with suspicion, as if it's at best a waste of time and, at worst, sinful in some way.
Also, we need to be clear with our definitions, as "fun" or "entertainment" or "pleasure" can encompass a wide range of activities and seem to largely be relevant to each individual. Like, Christians probably shouldn't be watching snuff films or movies with tons of gratuitous sex, but I really don't think that my mom playing solitaire on her computer for 30-minutes a week is the devil's doing.
Really fantastic video Gavin. Thankyou very much! Only 7 minutes in haha
How can you present the deceitful dangers and the sinfulness of sexual entertainment in early church history, whether explicit or with humor, along with the parallels of it in present history and then turn around and say "hey, I am not in any way, shape or form saying that acting is a sin, no matter what the context is. I have friends who are actors..." What?? You took a stand on biblical truth and then caved.
Please address swearing (cussing, cursing, etc.)! It seems to be one of the biggest points of disagreement between Christians of differing generations.
I really enjoyed the points you made towards the end. Specifically in relation to art and discernment over how Christians should engage with entertainment.
When you brought up violence or “rated R” movies and the possible legalism that some Christians may subscribe to there: I was thinking how my views have been challenged and have shifted some throughout the years. Personally I also look at the context of the story in a film or tv show. I don’t always do things perfectly but I think a good way I discern what I choose to watch or even play (if o play a video game) is the overall themes, story, characters, and message. I may not always agree with characters choices but if film and art help us be more empathetic as Christians, or if the stories depict the sinful and broken side of humanity well enough (without be too indulgent) then I’d say that engagement with and even enjoyment of those medium can help us really think and wrestle with the deeper aspects of the human experience. At least that is my take. Of course we rely on Christ for our purification for sin, and rest in his grace (PTL). But as a fan of movies, video games, and even music, I can’t help but think you are hitting it spot on with basically promoting us as Christians to be mindful of what be partake in, and how to appropriately engage with art, culture, (entertainment etc) in a more godly and thoughtful way!
This was really convicting, but so graceful filled.
Very well done and a much needed topic. Contemporary entertainment has become repulsive to Christianity and we, and myself in particular, would do well to remember that.
Well handled without shaming folks, that's wisdom! I've heard it said, it's shame that holds a particular sin to someone..
Bring it out into the open with a trustworthy Pastor, Elder, Brother or Sister in Christ, or understanding spouse, and let the shame and sin both go where they belong, to the cross where they were nailed!
Thank You for that message of freedom & grace Brother Gavin! 🙏🕊️👍
Great video, blessings!
I wonder if Saint Athanasius of Alexandria and St. Jerome would have enjoyed K-On!
Tradition holds that Saint Augustine used anime as a prove of total depravity against Pelagius teachings.
@@Bruno-ov9ew fr, except pokemon, pokemon is still cool. If you listen carefully the Team Rocket motto is a parody of secular-nationalism 🙃 _totally_
st. Jerome was Free Grace
I'm unsure if the premise would have interested them
This blessed me and convicted me in exactly the way it needed to. Thank you Gavin 🙏
Thank you for the advice! I do believe that through discernment we can find even seemingly horrific media, replete with death and sexual immorality like Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul to be catechistic in a positive way, because even those shows themselves show the devastating and unenvious those things are. I was never tempted by drugs, but Breaking Bad also cemented my aversion to that, and both of these shows demonstrate what terrible consequences pride leads to. As I watched those shows (and many others) I kept thinking “if only they had Christian values none of those people would’ve been hurt”
I feel like I know I keep repeating it over and over again but thank you soooooo much dearest brother Gavin. What a subject to tackle and how brilliant a job you have done again! Love your pastoral conclusions full of wisdom.
God bless
Thank you for the edifying truth in this video. God bless you :D
Thanks Gavin, great video!!!
I do not think that seeing something bad in itself it bad; it is only bad when we are meant to see the bad thing as a good thing. So, I don't mind seeing a criminal in a movie, so long as he's not the main character and you're not meant to root him on. I don't mind seeing adultery in a movie, so long as it's not portrayed as romantic and the plot doesn't just serve to justify the adultery. I don't mind seeing murder, so long as it actually appears brutal. Real life has bad things in it, so if we are unwilling to see those things, it means that we are unwilling to learn about or accept the world the way it really is. It is only when we take pleasure in bad things being made to seem good that it is bad.
My only worry is about the actors doing it. How would it affect them? It pains to imagine that you might stumble so that others can be edified or something. Obviously, in books and pictures, no one is involved, so no issues there ig.
I disagree with you on a lot, but I really appreciate this video and your comments about the subject.
That's very cool as a topic!
Still trying to get used to you in a screen again after I managed to meet you in Rome last week. 😂
great to meet you! :)
It was really wonderful!
I am a Roman Catholic but a huge fan of your ministry.
To get an autograph of yours was awesome and you were so kind in taking my card.
Thanks for this amazing experience :)
I wrestle with this subject too, so I appreciate the pastoral thoughts and balance here. I have found the concepts of "do all things to the glory of God" and "do not cause a brother to stumble" to be very helpful here in the discernment process.
Regarding violence, I understand your point about training the conscience, but the difference you mentioned between the actual killing in the gladiator arena and that in a movie/video game is still a critical one. There is a spectrum between glorifying real violence and kids playing cops and robbers with water guns. I have similar thoughts about slapstick humor, not that I get to define the rules. :) The more something in media impersonates the real thing, the more seriousness needs to be applied to it. Also, if it intends to awaken sin even if it is unrealistic, that would be a problem as well.
The issue is that violence in media has never shown to change behavior, especially the same way that sexual sin does. There's a reason why Jesus warns against even looking in lust but does not do the same with looking at violence. There is no denying that there is an impact. But to put it on the same level of sexual sin would be a grave error. The violence also depends on the context of it. Is it for fun or is it to illustrate a tragedy (aka are we glorifying it or using it as a device to demonstrate realities of life like the scriptures use violence)? It is important to know that violence is not a black and white issue.
Yes yes he makes us love something that is against God and when he tempts it feels easy to fall into his trap.
Like pornography, movies, cinema, k drama😜, kpop, pop music, comedy shows, web series, etc...
A very edifying reflection here. St. Basil's "Address to Young Men on Greek Literature" is also helpful on this topic.
For anyone who sees this: He basically says that there are good and virtuous things in pagan literature/poets/etc. but we must avoid the bad and not allow it to poison our souls and minds with vice, immorality, murder, etc.
It's story time with Dr. Gavin Ortlund! Always something to learn. God bless you immensely 🙏❤️✝️
Is Dr. a Biblical title? Jesus commanded against such titles amongst the brethren. Matthew 23: 8-12
@@1Whipperin Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said not to use a title called doctor. Do you call your dad father?? Jesus says not to do that from your logic too 💀
@@raphaelfeneje486Matthew 23: 8-12 Jesus commanded against titles amongst the brethren. Calling your dad father is in reference to your family and biological relationship and is not a title amongst the brethren so that is not what Jesus commanded against. All believers are equal. There is no hierarchy in the Church. Paul never referred to himself as Apostle Paul. He referred to himself as Paul, an apostle.
@@1Whipperin You literally refuted yourself. Matt.23.9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Is father a title your dad was given when he was born?? LOL. Paul, an apostle. Is the "apostle" a title or a name given to Paul?? That's the same as Doctor Gavin. Stop reading into the Bible what it doesn't intend. Jesus clearly was talking about those Pharisees that were acting as though they were above everyone. Aaron the highpriest is a title. We can say Highpriest Aaron! Your argument is moot!! We can say Apostle Paul because Paul is an Apostle and that's a title, not his biological name. You've literally turned to the Pharisees that were trying to legalize religion.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund! I've been thinking about this a long time and it especially hit me when I watched gladiator, because I wondered what the difference between me as a viewer and the actual viewers in the time of the Romans was. On top of this purity is a constant struggle. Please pray that the Lord would guide me to a clean and beautiful path.
When it comes to violence in movies, would you distinguish between violence that is virtue-affirming (e.g. Theoden charging into battle against hordes of orcs) and that which is not (e.g. horror movies)?
Which kind of horror movies are you thinking of?
Really edifying! Thanks for posting. I am reading Presley's Cultural Sanctification. It would be helpful and fun to hear you two in a give and take conversation about the early Church and how we live today.
Very thankful for this video. Honestly, growing up in a somewhat fundamentalist home, I sort of went to the other side of the spectrum and have not given very much thought as to the kind of media I exposed myself to in my adult life. My brother went to film school, and I was very influenced by a lot of the movies and shows he was watching, although I in no way blame him. I think he was kind of reacting to that fundamentalist attitude as well. I can definitely see some movies, like Lord of the Rings or even something grittier like No Country for Old Men, express violence to tell a story rather than to revel in the violence or make light of it. However, I wonder about movies like John Wick or Guardians of the Galaxy where violence is done in a flippant and careless way, and the violence itself is what is entertaining. Honestly, I haven't thought about this seriously until now. Thank you for bringing this to my heart. I will be meditating on it.
Another thought I have now is whether taking out some of the blood and guts from violent movies in the past actually made things worse. Like, it's hard to take a scene of violence seriously when there 's nothing shocking about it. I wonder if this helped desensitize us to the point where now, gratuitous gore is present even in movies that treat violence flippantly. It's almost like taking out the gore was a step towards normalizing violence, which is now normalized with gore.
One of the most convicting scriptures that helped shape me in choosing reading and movies is found in Psalm 11:5, “he who loves violence my soul hates.” I love mysteries but I choose them carefully. Dorothy Sayers and Ellis Peters (Brother Cadfael especially) are two of my favorite authors. Richard Osman is fun and funny and so is Martha Grimes. But I draw the line at an author’s preoccupation with the gruesome and twisted, for example Patricia Cornwell. Just my own personal conviction!
Thanks so much for this, Gavin. I am saving this to use in teaching my children.
I spent basically the first 40 years of my life addicted to TV. I had a collection of over 1000 movies, lots of TV shows, and 100s of video games. After I became a Christian I came to realize how sinful it all really was, and the Holy Spirit convicted me to repent of it all. I've gotten rid of all if it, and I only watch Christian content now, mostly on UA-cam.
It wasn't until I became free from the adduction to cultural entertainment that I realized the true extent of the damage it had done. It's difficult to put it into words, but people think it's no big deal, and it's way more serious than they realize.
When people think of p*rn they think of only the stuff labeled as such. The truth is that most of the entertainment we consume is also p*rn in one form or another. Whether it's vulgar humor, or just all of the very suggestive visuals, or even the glorification of violence. I spent way too much of my life watching it all. To the point where I have a substantial amount of it burned into my brain.
I realize now that I wasn't just watching it. I was worshiping it, as most people are. When you devote that much time out of your life to something, that is a form of worship. When you repent of it, none of it really tastes the same anymore, and you can see how captive everyone is to their worship of entertainment.
I love this. I found "The Dangers of a Shallow Faith" by AW Tozer and "The Mortification of Sin in Believers" by John Owen great in this area. Also I remember RC Sproul teaching on Christian liberty, the weaker brother and legalism that was extremely helpful in understanding these things in Scripture and in life better.
I know that this was in address to what the Early Church thought regarding entertainment, but the thought that I had always received was narrative pointing of a story and whether it was elevating us towards virtue or degrading our thoughts. The benchmark for the content within the story for said narrative purpose was always the Bible itself.
Really appreciate this video. One thing I’ve noticed among some Christians is a lack of concern about the overtly sexually explicit nature of certain movies or shows (e.g. Game of Thrones, etc.) which I would’ve thought would be generally agreed on by Christians as spiritually unhealthy to watch and, at least for straight guys like myself, clearly feeds on lust as part of the entertainment. Obviously the question of violence glorification is important as well, but would you agree that this kind of hyper-sexualized media should be pretty universally shirked by Christians instead of viewed as a disputable matter of conscience (as I've observed be the case with some)?
Only the Holy Spirit can transform our mind, you would wonder then if they are truly walking with the Lord.
When you talked about violence in enterteinment I could not stop thinking about violent video games! Any thoughts on these?
Depends on the context the games are using it in. Is it gratuitous, or are they trying to make a philosophical/thematic point?
I reckon that the "fornication" forbidden in Acts 15. 20 & 29 referred to the entertainments common among the ancient pagans (and now sadly very much present in our own day via TV, film, concerts, theatre etc.).
Great words, thanks for making this. This is a topic I have wondered about for awhile now.
Would it be wrong then to watch combat sports? MMA, UFC, etc…
Should we practice combat sports? What would the church fathers say?
What does the Bible say?
Great video!
Thank you
Real missed opportunity here. The title could’ve been: “Did The Early Church Watch TV?” 😂
That would have been great!!!
Recently I have come into conflict with literature that is damaging to the soul. I have a close coworker (non-believer) who consumes a large amount of "smut" sexually explicit novels. I have learned a few of the authors and books as a means of avoiding those things, but have found professing believers who are also reading these books. It's very easy for them to say "oh, I'm not reading it for that reason" or "I just read it for the plot". It's also difficult to call these things out as damaging for both my non-believer friends and my Christian friends because both will become heavily offended though for different reasons 😅.
Wonderful video, Gavin!
This was great! Thanks for the insightful commentary. I feel like we can’t admonish anyone about their entertainment without coming across judgmental and at the same time be gracious toward others and their walk with Christ
and to look at our own hearts first.
You only have to watch entertainments for about 20 to 30 years before you begin to realize that they have begun t o repeat themselves. You begin seeing the same plots, the same themes, the same arguments dressed up in different clothes. That's when you realize that you've been sucking on an empty straw all your life. I think C.S. Lewis said something like "we often chose pleasure rather than joy because pleasure is easier to come by."
I grew up in a Christian tradition that, in its inception, believed that a Christian should only the read the Bible. That started to lose its grip when the men decided it wasn't evil to have television for watching ball games. Two books I found helpful for finding a balance:
The Liberated Imagination: Thinking Christianly About the Arts by Leland Ryken
The Christian, the Arts, and Truth: Regaining the Vision of Greatness by Frank E. Gaebelein
Gavin, what would you think of this claim:
While Catholics, EO, etc claim to be closest to the early church in liturgy and doctrine, on THIS issue it’s actually Amish and Mennonites who are closest to the early church.
Amish no. Most Amish don't even study the Bible, they are mostly a legalistic cult. Mennonite are Baptist in old clothes and no internet.
I love most of your stuff, the sad irony is the Amish agree with 100% of everything you just said, but unfortunately as they don't use electronics to see this, and most people think I am stronger than my desires, and most are not strong willed and more prevalent today is, our desires become our identity. If only young people learned mote from cs lewis and less from Taylor swift.
Wow really?
Wonderful video! It's refreshing to look at church history and see beyond specific doctrines and debates. For a while I've felt that Christians have fell short in this area, especially with consuming TV shows. I always wonder to myself where people find the time to watch so much to begin with!
Thank you for this, Gavin. So good
So glad you brought this up. Ive been in the MMA scene for over a year now and there is... a LOT of sin. But I enjoy martial arts, I enjoy sparring and Ive had the opportunity to share the gospel with some of the guys at my gym. I also enjoy playing videogames - I found my time spent in this area has decreased significantly the more I spend time with the Lord in prayer and study (well, duh), but I still come around to it here and there and find opportunities to share the gospel with other sincere gamers. Ultimately, I've been asking myself 1) "How does this affect the posture of my heart towards Christ?" and 2) Is this pulling me away from time spent with the Lord?
Gavin, you briefly mentioned that the book "A Trail of Blood" was problematic. My grandpa, who attends a Southern Baptist church, heard I was getting into church history and suggested the book to me. He came over one night and gave it to me, saying it had been instrumental in his Baptist upbringing and that he’s given it to many people. I mentioned my concerns about its historical accuracy, which made me feel terrible because he was so happy to give it to me. He told me to read it and said, "you’ll see," acknowledging it's not perfect and has some grammatical errors but would illuminate church history. I stayed up until 1 a.m. reading it, and while there were moments that raised red flags for me, other times I thought, "this contradicts everything I know about the early church." Sorry for the long message, but have you considered doing a short video covering the problematic parts of the book? I don't know what to tell my grandpa when he asks how I liked it, other than "it was interesting."
I havent watched this, but my guess would be a resounding NO. Let me see what happens.
YES! Very thankful for the last remarks about art. I totally agree that we have to "recapture" the different areas of art as Christians. As an aspiring game developer I hope to be able to contribute my part in this very youngest form of art :) Making games is hard, but it is good.
Also, very important remarks about "how are things depicted" or, as I would describe it, "what is the intention of the work".
Most of us will be watching this video with constant distraction from our devices, necessitating a proper and careful listening of this video at a dedicated time.
Really good podcast! I do believe you are spot on with your assessment.
I remember years ago when Rene Russo was wanting to be in The Thomas Crown Affair, even though it had nudity and sex scenes in which she would need to do, she went ahead and did the film; even after claiming she was a devout Christian at the time.
That was when she lost all credibility. Very sad.
Matthew