What's More Evil? Dog Training Tools vs The Alternative - Episode 109 Jamie Penrith
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 чер 2024
- This discussion with Jamie Penrith goes deep into the topic of using aversive tools in order to save, not only dogs' lives, but also the lives of other animals such as sheep, cattle and more. Are these tools really aversive? Is aversive training or training that causes momentary discomfort to a dog to accomplish something important, cruel?
We dive deep into this conversation, take on many science based lies and mis-information and so much more. Jamie has led a movement and trained countless dogs to live around livestock using fair training methods and has done so successfully. People claim that these training methods including collars are cruel, yet the alternative is often a dog that gets shot by a farmer and worse! Dogs live in a human world and sometimes need extra training. The radicals opposing fair dog training will have you believe that they can do it without the tools, yet they have never proven their point. Why? Because they can't. They are spearheading movements everywhere to try to ban everything from e-collars to clip leads to crates.... the is dangerous for people, other animals and mainly for dogs.
The use of e-collars as a viable methodology of training is currently under attack by a very small but vocal group - the truth of using electronic training collars is one of many key points in this discussion. Please watch and share!
This is an awesome chat with a dog trainer from across the pond (in England). A very knowledgeable, talented and witty man that I respect and admire. He has a great organization that I support and hope you will too:
JoinArdo.com
ARDO's aim is educating the public and keeping dogs safe. A most worthwhile cause.
*****************************************
Check out my online dog training here:
robertcabral.com
My online dog trainer course:
shelterdogtraining.com
#doglover #ecollar #dogtraining - Домашні улюбленці та дикі тварини
The biggest difference between balance and “force free” is one faces reality and the other uses hypothetical scenarios!
exactly!
and "force free" reverts to management rather than fixing a lot of problems. Everything has it's place but it also has it's limits
'Force free' seems to rely heavily on management and avoidance. Not always practical on a day to day basis.
@@EvelineUK Agree. I have a hunting dog, and there is no treat he will ever find more valuable than chasing a bird or some other animal. following the force free community I would probably just never be able to walk my dog, or only go at hours the street is empty (which is not something I can even control)
Agreed! Education (FACTS) vs “Feelings”
Two totally professional dog trainers talking sense, refreshing to see on the internet,got my support
Totally agree. Loving this podcast!
Me too ! They absolutely care about the dogs not some new ideology that simply does not work for all dogs or people
Thank you!
Loved this show.
Human denial and projection is the most dangerous thing to all life
"Trying to give dogs a better way, to live a better life!" Great comment Robert & the e-collar can do this & save those dogs from euthanasia. Great podcast with yourself & Jamie, both amazing trainers that I have the upmost respect for!!
Hey... nice to see Jamie from the UK on Roberts podcast, much respect for all that Jamie does for the dogs over here
I absolutely use e-collar as an aversive tool. Only way I could keep my Husky away from my neighbor's rabbits and chickens. Used collar to keep my dog away from porcupine during a hike and to teach that busy roads are dangerous. I think we all are alive due to aversive experiences. I don't speed because getting a ticket is an aversive experience.
well said.....unless the ticket is only $5 then it may not be aversive enough to change....know the dog, teach it and apply the proper aversive to quickly teach what is and is not acceptable. good work.
You could also construct a physical barrier between the dog and the other animals, keep your dog on lead around them otherwise, and building up slowly invest a great deal of value in disengagement from the animals. Training your dog to be afraid of bad things happening of course gets the message though but at the cost of having a dog who is afraid of bad things happening.
@Emily Donovan I want him to be afraid of bad things happening when he goes after rabbits behind a fence. My neighbor's pig had a litter of pigs. One night his son's rescue dog got out and broke into pig area and killed the entire litter. That dog was shot and buried the next day.
@@walkyourdog6584 I am sorry that terrible thing happened. The problem was that the dog was able to access the pigs, or, do you mean the dogs need to wear the e-collar forever in their home at night as well? What happens if their collar comes off for any reason? For the rabbits, wouldnt it be better to make the fence more secure? If the rabbits are on the other side of the fence and the dog cant get them but is just barking at them, you can then practice disengagement games safely.
@Emily Donovan I don't think you know what you are talking about. Collars are totally useful to train a dog. To stay away from dangerous roads, to not hunt farm animals, to come even if there is something extremely attractive, like a pack of coyotes calling, or a squirrel dashing across a road, or a porcupine! We learn as a child not to touch a hot stove, and if we don't listen to our parents, we learn the hard way. It keeps us safe.
What I can't wrap my head around is why people are fine with invisible fences and bark collars which can and do turn dogs into anxious messes (because it's some supernatural thing to them), but when you push a button that does essentially the same thing is horrible.
Also like you've said people abuse all types of tools. I've seen people hit their dogs with hands and leashes, they hang them with flat collars and harnesses, jerk them around, yell in their faces while gripping their snouts. We don't need bans, we need education for those who don't know better and consequences for those who still choose to abuse their dogs.
I use a range of tools so when people ask I can give them my honest opinion. For example, I'm not fond of head halters cause my initial experience with them was someone using it wrong but I don't hate them and I even own one now that I plan to try out. I'm honest with people that I'd personally use a prong or slip before a halter and why and that some of it is just my personal preference in how the mechanics work, but I'm not going to berrate someone for using one. I've also trained dogs on front clip harnesses (which I personally dislike, they always loosen and awkwardly twist the ribs and shoulders). I've also helped an extremely anxious dog now live an amazing life (less fear, no more shutdown, and tons of freedom) with the prong and e collar. My deaf dog with terminal cancer also gets to run free still because of the ecollar and enjoy what is likely to be her final year. Not to mention the clients who have had so many run ins with the dog catcher and who's dog (a beagle) was constantly in danger of being hit by a car getting into some bad situation have control finally.
It's not the tools it's how you use them that is most important.
Sorry for the rant. I just really can't wrap my head around the people who believe in death before discomfort and don't do everything possible for the welfare of the dog. It breaks my heart to see dogs suffering silently and their owners think they are fine or just purposely bad. So many dogs are not meeting their potential out there
So we contain (soft prey) horses in a field that if you touch the electric fence IT HURTS!! Yet they want to ban a tool for a PREDATOR that can be turned so far down low that we cant even feel it?! Yet they don't want to ban horse or livestock electric fences.
Good example!
crazy, right?!
To stop predatory behaviours you do need to use higher stim levels but as said it is only momentary. Joel Beckman had it right when he said the Force Free people didn't turn up with any evidence because they can't. They have no videos showing dogs that have been stopped from unwanted behaviours. The individuality of the dog is essential. Really great chat Guys. ARDO is great. Thank you.
Great podcast, really interesting discussion. I live in the UK and just last week i saw a post from a dog rescue saying a dog would be euthanised if not re-homed because he had killed a neighbour's sheep. Sad that people would prefer to see a dog die than to cause him short term discomfort with sheep aversion training.
I have a Lurcher, he is 2.5 years old. his recall is great, until he gets distracted. I am so frustrated. I love this dog with every fiber of my being, I would never cause him suffering. After a recent injury I was on so many medications I had a bad interaction. My dog sleeps at the foot of my bed. One night after I was released from hospital I took my meds and went to bed, my dog by my side. I woke to my dog barking at me and scratching the top of my head furiously with his front paws. When I woke I was gasping for air, took me several minutes to focus on what was happening. bare in mind my dog is submissive towards me, has never acted in this way before. I checked the info sheet with each medication I was on, each medication had breathing suppression as a side effect. I genuinely believe my dog saved my life that night. I say this to emphasize just how much I care about my pet dog and how much he cares about me, or at least how much he cares about his food provider staying alive.
I am looking into using an e-collar to assist in breaking his focus when he gets his head into hunting mode. I haven't made a decision to buy one yet, I need to learn more about them and also need to do more traditional training work, long line etc. I would like the option to try it to help my dog live a better life. He's a good boy, I don't want his instincts to ruin his enjoyment of his life. I also now have a one year old Deerhound, she couldn't remain with her family due to her insane energy, wouldn't allow her to go to a stranger and she got on well with my lurcher (she is a friends dog). Maybe I need the the e-collar round my neck!
Jamie is the real deal More interested in in dog welfare than making money. We own a bully who "WAS" reactivate on the lead. Other than making us drive 5 hours he professional sent us to danny wells who lives closer And after using training tool and being trained how to use them professionally now own a social bulldog thanks to you both.
I don't know any dogs that have e collars, but I know loads of dogs that are locked in cages for hours and hours day after day. I never hear all positive trainers, purely positive trainers, or, in fact, any trainer that comes out and firmly, and I mean very firmly condems the misuse of cages , I would just love a dog trainer to talk about how important before you get any dog to consider that dogs fundamental needs the breed type the time and commitment you have to give to the dog , if this were so we would see a lot less issues less need to use these often misused training aids , I truly believe the most misused training aid is the dog cage not the ecollar
Kennels are great as long as there's also a significant amount of non-kennel time and outdoor exercise. there's many dogs that will never outgrow certain kinds of mischief
I guess we just can’t understand what Zak George sees in his highly enlightened and evolved state.
Putting a dog to sleep with laughing gas and then injecting toxins into their bloodstream is far less stressful than making them momentarily uncomfortable with a prong collar. And like he says, what about the long term impact on the dog?
There's no coming back from death. Facts.
Are you serious or is this a troll or parody?
@@nimahnkrissy extreme sarcasm. I adopted a highly reactive 3 year old Aussie with a bite history about 1.5 years ago. Two positive only trainers recommended euthanasia because he was “too aggressive” and untrainable.
With mild contractions, tons of reward based training and counter conditioning / desensitization he is now a near perfect dog.
I find it absolutely abhorrent to tell people to kill their pets without ever communicating to the dog that it’s actions are unacceptable.
And the concept of it being better to kill dogs as opposed to using other training methods on them (methods that everyone agrees work) is cruel and just plain evil. Zak frequently responds to people’s comments about using tools to train dogs with “what about the long term impact on the dog?”, which help display his ignorance and lack of understanding. Not one of his “Science” papers I’ve read say the proper balanced training CAUSES any issues for the dogs.
@@eriknissen4004 good work!...we must teach our dogs what is acceptable and what is not....well said.
They do that? Put to sleep with nitrous? For what?
I train high drive working sheepdogs and there is no treat in the world that will stop dogs gripping sheep. I don't use e collars but i am not against them sheep worrying is horrible.
Yes when I raised sheep we had a border collie with a lot of bite, it was fine on ewes but when he grabbed a lamb by the leg and did some kind of a piledriver maneuver, I started using an ecollar and it worked beautifully. It's actually very easy to correct a high drive dog, yet almost impossible to use a treat to deter something they want to do more than anything in the world
At last someone says what is largely behind the push to ban tools ie vested interests. Dog training is a lucrative business sector and if you can eliminate a portion of that sector that competes, and has good / better results, then people will be driven to other services that may not work as well and will require longer customer commitments.
This! This is so true. The money business in promoting the dog training that does not work is a huge force that is completely ignored. Not to mention how the training will blame a dogs mentality if the training fails- after medication one can just euthanize the dog. Sorry for misspelling and bad grammar. I know multiple ff "trainers"- and the amount of dogs they put down at age 2,3 and 4 years is abhorrent.
You really do find some great people to talk with Robert
Mr Penrith was both entertaining and informative 👏
The holy grail of topics with incredible host & guest. Thank you both so much x
I have been a member for a few weeks and have been applying your puppy training to my new Aussie Puppy and it is working so well and he learns so fast. He loves what we are doing even when he is heeling for cookies he has hard time not just bouncing off the ground. When i am starting his recall if he were a bigger dog he would mow over he comes in so fast. He loves when my husband and i play go find between us. He also loves playing hide and go seek now as well.
He was letting us know at 11 weeks he wanted out and has never had an accident in his crate. He is a handful, very headstrong and determined but i have confidence that we will have a great dog following your methods. Thank you. I have learned so much that wished had known with some of my previous dogs.
I love that both of you can see past your own ways and appreciate others. I wish "The other side" of trainers could do the same. I am fed up with people trying to impose their ways onto everyone. There is no one size fits all dogs, or ways to train dogs, that I have learned on my own after 40+ years working with dogs. Each dog is an individual and there are many useful tools in the toolbox. For me, I always start out with treat lures and toys but some dog require other communicators. Many dogs have been put down for behavior because people did wrong by them. Our local shelter has gotten more like that over the years as well. They will label a dog a problem dog before trying other methods of training. It is very sad.
You are correct....and well said about most shelters/rescues....they should be ashamed and there "beliefs" are the reason many dogs are killed and I stopped volunteering there. very sad and negligent "businesses".
@@ABCdogtraining802 Same for me. I volunteered in rescue for many years but saw far too often how dogs that simply needed solid training would be labeled dangerous and then quietly put to sleep. I witnessed far too often, people dump dogs, who through no fault of their own, developed some dangerous behaviors. Those behaviors could have been turned around but they were not given that opportunity. I no longer volunteer with rescues like that, as they are the opposite of what they pretend to be.
@@asrotties I cant enable positive only and force free lies....leads to death with many dogs, works for a few...not a risk I will take.
Amazing to see Jamie on Robert’s show. Glad Jamie and his mission are getting a wider audience.
Jamie Penrith and Robert Cabral make some absolutely excellent points in this discussion. In particular, reminding us of the difference between humans and canines.
Absolutely stellar conversation ... THANK YOU TWO!!
To me it was Larry Krohn on UA-cam, who was the first to explain to me how an E-collar is supposed to be used correctly. Ironically, i looked at that video to roast him. I hated the use of E-collars, and don't get me wrong, there are still way to much people here in Austria that use them wrong. In the 80s we had collars with 3 levels, and E-collar usage was normally very cruel. With Larry i learned that todays collars have about 100 levels, and most of the time it is used on a very low level, just to present stimuli. So thanks to all you dog trainers on the internet that go through all the hatred to give us clear information. I for one really appreciate your work.
My doberman tried to be a really serious hunting dog. Without e-collar it wouldn't be posible to get him off leash ever. Training on e-collar was like miracle. Few sesions and he started to think and listen even with deer or boar in front of him. No cruelty at all, of course he was not very happy about that, but his safety is more important to me and it's forbidden in my country for dog to chase game and livestock. It would be cruelty to keep him on leash to the rest of his life or leave him in state when he can go after wild animal and do serious harm to that animal or himself. My second doberman is a rescue. She is from family that gave her no rules or boundries at all. Also no proper excersise, because she started to be too strong for them at 6 months of age. So she started to be aggressive and bit few people because of frustration. She also bit me few times after I adopted her. It's pure luck, that in place I live you can't just euthanize dog without serious issues, and It's not obligatory even if dog bit someone. I use e-collar in training. She responds very well to it. She has big drives and loves to bite, so we started Mondioring training and she is better and better in it. I saved her live - giving her rules boundries and corrections. I never had such a great, intelligent and tough dog. I use a tons of positive reinforcement in training, but for some dogs it's not enough. It's horrible that some people think it's better to kill the dog, than use something aversive. It's f**kig not!
morning Robert ! Been loving the topics recently. Keep it up. Just got a new puppy as well so I’m watching all your puppy videos to refresh my memory
I went to university in england for animal managment extended diploma, (the highest course i could find on animal care with out becoming a vet)
My teachers were so passionate and adimant about how prong collars, slip lead sand e collars were very inhumane and spokr as if they were banned already, this was 10 years ago.
If my university teachers who genuinly mean no harm with their beliefs but this shows how institutionalized one sided belifs have become.
Balanced training for anything is what works, you can apply pressure with eyesight, taking space ect ir a leash or a prong or a e collar. The better understanding of positive and negative cirrections and reinforcment is key and deff not stayjng in 1 quadrant you have to bounce around!
I believe in all the tools and no tools. It’s whatever the dog needs. One of my dogs needed a gentle leader, one trained only on a flat collar and one needed prong & e-collar. All three were trained by the same trainer with doing most of the actual hands on training at his direction.
The trainer instructed us how to handle and train our dogs.
Thank you both for posting this. Watched and listened and learnt.
Local farmer broke a dog's jaw where it was worrying his stock. A hard kick with a steel toe~ capped boot to get it to release.[England]
His own dogs are beautifully trained, but some snappy labradoodle with hopeless owners just would not leave his stock alone.
It's owners have never brought that dog to his land again.
Thank you for bringing Jamie on, Robert. I'd like to ask whether, for example here or in Great Britain, trainers like you, Jamie and others who are sensible and authoritative on the topic, as well as other beneficiaries of proper use of e-collars (farmers, shepherds, etc.) are being asked or even allowed to present your expertise and experience to the lawmakers considering these bans? Apparently, they and the major animal orgs need some enlightenment.
Jamie's remarks about exploiting the emotions of the ignorant and the financial aspects are spot on, as are his comparisons with other electrical/electronic-based contention methods for other animals and the inconsistencies in approaches and beliefs. In all a really instructive discussion.
Thanks, Jamie. Cheers.
I can't speak for others, but I have never been asked my opinion....
@@RobertCabralDogs It would seem to me that at the very least a comprehensive inquiry with competent reference people from all sides would be in order ... let's hope common sense will bring broader discussion and with end decision-makers because little real good is done based on personal emotions only. Hope to get out your way someday. Thanks for all you do.
I always said if you let a dog go crazy everytime the dog is on a leash/harness for days, weeks, months, forever. Is irresponsible and inhumane. That is what happens when your dog is trained by positive only trainer. If you can help the dog understand and queal the dogs anxiety with the proper tool in usually one session. What is best for the dog? I used E collar on 1 of 3 of my own dogs and she is a better dog and she loves me just the same but she needed to learn what is right from wrong. I love my dogs and I never want to hurt them.
Thanks Robert I loved this what a great conversation. I’m crazy enough to adore high drive Airedales believe me there is little I could offer them to call them when they hit a scent. And they love to run far and fast. My dogs have rock solid recalls. They are safe running joyfully…. Bless the trainers that helped us get here ❤
Finally I listened to all!
What a great podcast 🙌🏻
Fantastic work you are doing Robert with bringing really interesting people to your podcasts.
Jamie is a great person who are more electrical than an e-collar. 😂❤
Glad you enjoyed it!
A refreshingly sensible conversation - Thank you! The world has gone nuts😮. Some dogs need more robust training 'disclipline with love' our old dog trainer used to say. I've had Huskies for 15 years and positive only training would have ruined them and me! (we used prong collars)
Brilliant podcast. I greatly admire both you gentlemen. Jamie is the voice of reason and a completely unreasonable world. Thank you for this, I look forward to the next chat.
It's unfortunate. In some hands it's cruel. I have a personal experience. My FIL wanted to pen his dog outside while he was at work. His neighbors complained that he was barking all day so he purchased a "bark" collar. I woke up one morning to the most scary screaming I've ever heard. I had no idea what it was, but I knew it was in the yard. He slapped the bark collar on the dog and left for the day. So...he barked, got zapped and had no idea what was happening and started literally screaming and getting zapped, screaming, getting zapped. Thank God I was there and got it off of him. There is an ethical question regarding proper use of these instruments and how to keep them out of the hands of those who are ignorant of the consequences. I am very pro balanced training, but education on the tools isn't "required" for purchase. I believe I could use one safely and fairly, but not everyone is interested in educating themselves and expects them to brainlessly work. And when they don't will be motivated to turn it up and eventually unnecessarily blast their pets.
your right...unfortunately some humans abuse everything in life, no matter the tool, animal or stimulus. It is and always will be a part of the challenge. But, 99% of people are good and mean well. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair...it happens and always will, always has.
While I’m against banning ecollars I would be fine if they banned bark collars for this exact reason. I don’t feel there is a right way to use a bark collar, because as far as I understand it just automatically corrects the dog whenever they bark so it’s not controlled by a human (pls educate me if I’m wrong about this). Barking is a natural behavior for dogs, seems really unfair to punish every bark.
@@Skyisgreytoday I never use a bark collar...barking is natural but it is unhealthy and rude if no threat or for longer then an alert to owner...I teach "all done" or "leave it"
@@ABCdogtraining802 Yupp totally agree, I also taught “quiet”. But correcting barking before you give that cue is unfair which is where I take issue with bark collars.
@@Skyisgreytoday quiet is good.....the word doesnt matter right, the repetition and consequence does...for all "markers"....to become meaningful. NIce!
Listening to you guys makes me feel VERY validated in my belief system, thank you!! Its a shame that you have to explain and defend common sense to people who are either weak minded or have an evil agenda. Great content guys!
Love.
lisrening to your interviews. This was a completely sensible conversation. Loved it. Keep up the good work, and keep the conversation going.
Thorough enjoyed this discussion.
Another great discussion between 2 great dog trainers.
Great insightful discussion!
19:35 AMAZING POINT!!! Someone may not agree with me. I use treats for “sit, stay, shake.” I use discussed methods on here for tater’s (my dog) protection in public. I don’t do in an inhumane way. IN FACT, I probably give too many chances before I gently start using the correction. I used the “tone setting” three or four times while saying “come here” repeatedly. Then I use the lightest setting while repeating the command. I normally don’t have to go beyond this. I have had to be aggressive less than 4 times in two years to get his attention.
Both Jamie Penrith and Danny Wells are good. They have a podcast called The Dog Scholar on YT, and an association named ARGO.
Do you think that the furor over the prong and the e-collar (and other training tools) are because people don't know how to use them correctly?
I've been really fortunate that none of my dogs -- all rescues -- have needed those particular tools, but if they had, I would have no hesitation in using any of them.
In my experience, the people that hate tool the most have no understanding of how to use them correctly. Just looking at many of the comments made by the anti tools community, most don’t understand how to use them, or how much they improve training.
And when they ban the tools, people use them without training because the really good trainers can't teach how to use them properly - this is a BIG problem
i think the misconception is that people think you are shocking your dog every time you are giving him a command - while the reality is that tools aren't used to train the behavior, they're used to proof the behavior. I have a hunting breed and i used the ecollar to proof his recall. In the year since i bought the ecollar, i have only had to use it 2-3 times at a low stim. In the last 6 months i haven't used it at all. He gets rewarded every time he comes back to me and we spent two years training his recall with positive reinforcement on a long line before touching an ecollar. But because he still wears it all the time, for his safety, people assume i'm using it every day and that i'm shocking him every time i'm calling him - nothing could be further from the truth.
no, I believe it's an agenda driven movement....
@@Skyisgreytoday And the zealots who have no understanding of the tool, or how you use it will claim there are some phantom "long term" consequences that will harm the dog. No logic or discussion can convince them otherwise because it's an emotion driven response coupled with a refusal to take the time to understand
Right now, training dogs is just like educating kids. There are those that see the world as it as and want to prepare the dogs and kids for the world. Then there are those who see some other type of world that doesn't exist and denies the realities of the real world simply because they don't like it. This all is very similar to college kids needing "safe spaces".
I actually thought of the same thing. It's like the movement started with kids and now they moved on to dog's world. First one created tons of Counseling and Psychology jobs along the kids who now have zero coping mechanism, zero common sense, zero idea of real world issues and are labeled and placed on meds and forever therapy sessions.
Now they want dogs on meds, and "it's your choice" idea. Since we already know, according to science that average dog is on a level of 2.5 year old child that means that that we should adapt 2.5 year olds to run the world 🤷🏼♀️ because saying " no" is aversive.
I consider myself an animal advocate 😇 I am open minded with corrective tools after I learned more about the safety use, but also because of people's real life stories of tragedies that otherwise could have been prevented. Simply because the dog was robbed of an alternative method of training that can potentially saved two or more lives. Reality is there are not enough homely situations where these dogs later can go after the damage has been done, it's then death row!
I think that some things are even worse than "death row", namely a dog that is kept in the house or yard because their owner can't figure out how to treat train their leash aggression away or the dog is too powerful for them to control.
Much as I agree with your sentiments - Real life: Treat train leash aggression away is a very high risk of failure when dealing with strong instincts and/or aggression. It's our reaction that determines our dog's next action, so it is on us to protect them from any likely harm. Owners has to make a dog feel safe for a lesser to none reaction, and that is a self learning tool we all need to master with dog ownership. A correction has to be instant whether voiced or a teaching aid that can gain that dog attention long enough to learn what is expected. Keeping an open mind is key to success!
Perfectly said. It’s the tool that uses the tool that needs the training. I have a working breed. She will be off over the fields and probably run off a cliff and kill herself if I let her off lead. She is currently on a long line.
I definitely think an ecollar will protect her and other animals and even protect humans if she runs into a road and causes a car incident!
Took my ecollar wearing dog for a walk today. Comments like "what a good dog" "wish my dog would recall like that" We are in Scotland, but I'd do it wherever.
Yeah I constantly get questions in public about how I trained my dog and how is he so good? Most people don't balk when I say ecollar and prong, but I've had a few people get wigged out.
@@BigBADSTUFF69 Yeah, I had a lady burst into tears!! Even though my dog was playing with hers.
Yep. I get the same kind of responses in the US when they find out the dog is wearing an ecollar
All dogs are different! I had a dog who would NOT stop chasing and one or two zaps and presto problem solved ! I have a rescue dog now that if I raise my voice he instantly stops whatever he is doing. I do whatever it takes to keep my dogs safe.
Powerful dominant dogs need special owners.
'layin the facts and discussing with full respect! ....yes Robert....You are a Star 🌟! Thank you.
My trainer referred to the e-collar as a leashless leash.
amazingly explained !
Glad it was helpful!
Well said. Great Pod Cast. WoW
Love Jamie❤️❤️❤️
This banning issue is SO SAD!!
Thank you Robert for noticing that we are English much appreciated,as the word Englishman is an endangered species.
What else would you call someone from England?
@Parker Brown-Nesbit we are normally referred to as British
@@Drainingtheswamp2022 I was joking in part (I've been an Anglophile all my life). I, personally, like to use the correct terminology 😉
Think of me a dog trainer in Wales! I have absolutely no idea how to use an Ecollar as I've never been given the chance! However when I started off it was choke chains and I think I know which I would prefer!
Im so sorry...learning the e-collar has allowed me to help soooo many more dogs and save lives. It is a shame its banned and politics/greed has created this. Very sad. Not every dog needs one but every dog prospers and becomes great when properly trained with one.
Our neighbor put an E-Collar on his German shepherd because he barked all the time. Mind you, he left the dog in the back yard by himself, and he was basically a guard dog I guess? Anyway, the dog got out, and we took the e-collar off, his entire neck was chewed up from the shock… it was horrifying. We called animal control. I have a little dog, so he’s easily controllable, but my only experience seeing an e-collar has been a negative one. I was a veterinary technician for 15 years and saw pretty gnarly injuries from e-collars being left on indefinitely. I know they can be used in a positive way, but it’s up to the owner to do that, and I’ve yet to see an owner use one responsibly. Keep in mind at the vet, people don’t bring animals in that are usually healthy unless they need prescription flea medication. So there’s that too.
Exactly, it's the misuse of tools that they are basing it on. Every tool has been misused. Dogs have eye injuries from head halters. Flat collars have become embedded in necks or caused other neck trauma due pulling. Some dogs have even hung themselves because the collar caught.
Harnesses have rubbed areas until they're raw and bloody because it wasn't a proper fit.
People have beaten dogs with leashes.
If we based if a tool is cruel or not based on misuse, everything would be banned.
Yeeeeesss! Been dieing to see this.
Positive options on E Collar’s Tone & Vibration for Positive Reinforcement Comuncation
I agree with correcting dogs with these tools versus alternative of putting them down. Just don't understand Zak's point of view.....unless he's getting influenced by the dog corporates.
Zach made fame on You Tube. It worked great for him, so he will not let go the cash cow. In person meetings are impromptu and nothing at this point of time will prepare him for that. I just saw how he made video responding that his current format of response is the best and how it generates lots of views. So you see, it's about views for him first. It also allows him more prep time to respond to Ivan and Robert.
He has a massive platform. In no way do I believe he is standing on this soap box because of pure ideology. He lives a pretty cushy lifestyle, multiple homes, social media is his sole income. There's money motivation in some way by these particular groups. He's benefitting monetarily. Watch for a new house somewhere soon.
He got big with one ideology. He is like a salesman. People will take everything he says whether he actually continues to develop his skills as a trainer.
In the end, he has videos showing him grabbing dogs. That's not positive training.
I have an almost 4 yr old pitbull and the ONLY way i train is with positive training and it works unbelievably well. Im surprised with the outcome bc he listens very well and he is very smart. All the other trauning techniques i think arent good
UK government as been talking about e collars since the 80s or early 90s so it's been on the table a long time but we still have em.
I think you’re a lot nicer about ZG than me..I don’t think he has dogs’ best interest at heart because he does attack ppl like you who genuinely DO have dogs’ best interests in mind. He has a financial, vested interest in that “philosophy” and immediately and virulently attacking any criticism or challenge to it is proof of his ill intent. Or maybe I’m just jaded..
Nice took
Good God man… you just keep hitting it out of the park. The dog training space is a better place with you in it.
I agree with you Robert. There is no one way to train dogs . Silos are dangerous. They result in good dogs being killed. Millions of them.
Robert this guy makes me nervous . I took my younge S. Husky to an obedience group trainer that uses prongs . That day they said your life is about to change. His stubbornness was corrected. At 16 month I tried the e-collar on mild to instill positive recall and to stay on the road curb. Cobra
is always friendly by nature... so I nurtured.
I've used your lessons as a guide.
Now in the 90's my first dog was a Husky/Rottie with an edge . Mico growled at his trainer who raises sled dogs .I was told to punch him on the head . So I tried that and the dog only smiled at me. Sad to say he went on to bite the arm when provoked by a second trainer . And like many Rotties of the time was eventually put down.
Point is in those days we didn't have todays knowledge.
46:44 that is just fucking wild.
👌👍
The scary thing is these people have no problem in advising euthanasia for dogs they can’t help because of the limits of their training.
A recent discussion with a force free trainer was quite depressing. This is what she said:
“Gurminder Singh further to this I’m not ashamed to recommend euthanasia for a TRULY broken dog. It’s a welfare consideration and is in their best interest when you examine every aspect of every scientific field. If a dog is so damaged that it cannot be helped except through fear and pain, is that a life worth living at all?”
How many dogs have been killed due to this restrictive movement??!!
Hello Robert. I live here in Austria, (formally on your channel as Rigo Hook), and we can't use any tool here. Prong, choke collars, slip leads, all banned. E-collars, oh god, no. Now i always have strong dogs, physically and mentally. Can i train them proper without tools? Well, yes, i can and i do, but it gets more physical than it had to be, it's like cover your eyes and bring the children out, i'm going to train my dog. And i get shamed often if i correct my dog in public. "Treats work too, you know that, ape man?" Well, show me your proof than, Karen. I'm walking with three big dogs here without a leash, and you are not able to control your 10lbs dog with a leash? All those videos of positive only guys are in an empty field or an empty room, without any distraction whatsoever. This Zak George guy can't lead a fat kid to a candy shop, his dogs are terrible. That is your proof? I am not even a professional dog trainer, but my dogs are way more well behaved. Thank you for spreading your message. We could use some guys like you both or Larry here in Austria as well. The e-collar is actually the most humane tool, if applied correctly.
Yes, we are that dumb we believe what’s fed to us
👍
I am tired of this positive only trend...its fustrating. I have 2 dogs that ive trained and yes, i use some positive reinforcment in the BEGINNING to teach them but there comes a point where there are distractions that matter waaaay more than treats balls and or affection....i bet these positively only people dont trust their dogs to be off leash and be safe
My 10 month old stays calm and heeled when a bird lands a few feet from us, i live with ferrets and parrots descensitization is key
Is there any interest in creating a rehabilitation center ? It is needed very badly.
In sports it is inhumane. Sport should be enrichment and about working together not drilling.
E-collars do have a use in preventing dangerous behaviours because they could give a dog a chance at more freedom, but the problem is that they are to easy to abuse.
Who says they’re used inhumane. Maybe collars and leashes are used inhumane and should not be allowed in sports.
Let the professionals make the decisions! If both parts are profiting, maby its a good thing.
Humanists and left activism will be the end of our world! Sharp clear regulations will help alot! Good debate!
I had an electric collar once as I had a rescue that loved to bolt any chance he could. He was dog aggressive and it wasn't a safe situation. Came home one night to my kids passing the collar back and forth and shocking themselves🤣🤣🤣. Nobody died and as far as I can see both children didn't suffer adverse effects🤣. The brat dog lived to be over 12yrs happily till cancer caught him. He was a happy guy who loved his people.
Most E collar's have vibrate and shock. You always train with sequence verbal and vibrate first and if no response then shock. They will learn to obey command on vibrate very quickly.
Funnily enough, vibrate is significantly more aversive to my dog than a low stim. You just have to pay attention to the dog first, and go with what works best for them
No you dont Brent, never train positive punishment with vibrate (you can but very risky), you are right about pairing with verbal first....no, then stim.....correct with stim.....pair vibrate for recall only if you want but dont mess with vibrate to stop behavioral issues....I have tried both ways with many dogs as you said and rarely works long term, it may work for a bit but eventually the vibrate if used to correct becomes insufficient in prey drive/kill mode...I would highly recommend you to reconsider your approach.
I have a large property. If my dog gets out of my eyesight I call his name and he gets 1 vibrate. He is trained to bark after that sequence. If I don’t hear him (it’s usually because he is doing something he shouldn’t) he get 3 vibrate pulses. He definitely will bark and comes running to me then.
@@JenniferAguiartampa thats a very bad way to use the ecollar, fire your trainer
@@ABCdogtraining802 I only use e-collar for off leash recall not for behavior issues.
Animal Behavior training science has less than 15% of actual basis in natural animal behavior.
My 4 staffies play in a field RIGHT NEXT TO a field full of sheep. I’m in the UK.
Just the other day I fixed the fence to stop the youngest (6month old) getting under the sheep wire.
Yes, my neighbour could shoot my dogs.
If a fence failed, would you prefer to call your dog back with a remote collar or to be shot by farmer? I’m curious, no judgement.
It’s all political to use terminology that activate ordinary peoples feeling for sorrow and insecurity.
Everything from chock-collars, punishment, clima changes, gender-changes etc.
It’s very simple:
HARSHER sentences for animal mistreatment/abuse/neglect/torture.
Jamie is the Ricky Gervais of England Dog Trainers.
Already banned in Wales 😩
Maybe people should have a test and a licence to have such items?
NO! Stop with this nonsense.
the problem is THAT is the way toward a ban!
@@RobertCabralDogs I believe every person owning a dog should have to pass a test / get a licence prior to purchase and those buying a 'powerful' breed dog need a higher grade licence in order to prevent all kinds of neglect and abuse. Also breeders need licences as well. Do you think these type of licences would be a step toward a ban on dogs or prevent bad dog owners and abuse?
I wouldn't say that.
Maybe set a standard that all have to be made to. No more cheaply made ones. Authorized retailers, trainers educated on them rather than being able to go to the nearest pet store and pick one up when they have zero idea how to use it?
It's a very fine line. Limits often lead to bans.
Where is the science that supports the idea that e-collar is ever a better training method? If your solution to protecting livestock is an e-collar, then I would have thought a far easier and more reliable solution is a normal lead.
Some people need e collars on there kids, never mind trying to ban them for dogs🤣
Am i missing something, if your dog is displaying these predatory behaviors than maybe they shouldn’t be running around freely.
Certain things trigger the behavior.
My dog has a high prey drive. On my own property, I can stop him from killing wildlife and stray cats with a remote collar. I can also stop him from approaching a skunk and a gator. A skunk is a huge hassle for me. A gator means dismemberment or death for him. It’s not always puppies and rainbows.
@@JenniferAguiartampa if you want to put electricity into your dogs body that’s your decision. Personally if i had gators on my property I wouldn’t let him run around free. You have a big misconception if you think using positive reinforcement methods are just about puppies and rainbows
Some people have outdoor cats that come into their fenced yard. Despite the cat trespassing on their property, they'll still be the one that gets in trouble if their dog doesn't call off... in it's own yard.
A lot of the positive only camp suffer from cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.