In a game like doom eternal where swapping weapons constantly is almost required to beat the higher difficulties, it's a dangerous choice to switch weapon mods mid combat. I frequently found myself using the "wrong" mod on a weapon because I couldn't spare the time to swap mods. As much as I love the animations in an artistic sense, a quick toggle with no animation would make the game's combat so much more fluid.
Hello, may i introduce you to a game, ULTRAKILL, it is an amazing game that technically does not *require* quickswitching but the systems just lead you smoothly into quickswitching between weapons and alternatives of those weapons that are basically DOOM Eternal mods, i strongly recommend it, as i personally enjoy and play both games
I dont find a problem at all and I'm a console player it doesn't take time to switch and if your dying because of switching mods then I think it would be your problem with timing cause I switch mods all the time an never die cause of it and his point of people picking favorite mods is flawed but a simple statement and it's that each mod does something completely different like full auto is amazing with a stagger then full auto and I can kill a baron easily with it and sticky bombs can be used for cacaos and goof for spamming on mancubus and revenents cause it destroys all their weak points.
This makes me think that full auto mod should just replace the primary fire of the combat shotgun. Holding destroyer blade charges airblast for Ballista, and holding M1 + M2 charges airblast. Single M1 for primary fire. Micro missiles replace primary fire, and PB remains the same, however I can see how that can be kinda broken or people might not like that because they use primary fire for stagger on fodder. This has some potential, good video.
I feel like you get the problem a lot more than others do. It's not that the "bad mods" are actually bad, but it's more that their uses are very niche, and using them comes at the price of the opportunity cost of the other mods. I've been saying that while some mods are well designed in tandem since some are simply better for newer players and serve as teaching tools (micro Missiles vs precision bolt), stuff like Full Auto feels more like a noob trap on paper. I think having Full Auto in particular as an upgraded base fire for Shotgun and having the mod button be Stickies at all times would make the gun more fun without any balance issues, and I'd like id to look into maybe working that kind of system into the next game.
micro missiles works alot better since in the beginning your dps is quite low, so having an option to swap to to just blast mfs away is quite valuable. in the beginning precision bolt is unnecessary since you have stickies as burst damage and the shotty is pretty bad for quickswapping. late game few players swap to it because ballista ssg and rockets are pretty op and make burst easy while the chaingun is the high dps option. overall they kinda screwed it with it's placement, personally i love it but they horribly sold it
I see your point and I can understand how the mod system may lead to one mod being favored, but I like it that you can't switch instantly. It means you have to make a conscious decision whether or not to sacrifice the time to switch, and it's that kind of decision making that makes Doom Eternal fun for me. I think it adds some tension and causes the player to use their critical thinking skills.
I've also thought about this. Both mods equipped and having the mod swap button as a mod toggle button, meaning no mod swap animation. However, I think the enemies should be more aggressive to compensate for this because I think it could make the player too powerful.
I have been thinking of the use of double mods for a long time. Thank god you also agree. I've just never found a way of describing it or show my idea off. Ive had it at the front of my mind ever since that glitch was found when you could have both mods equipped and fire them at the same time. It would be so cool if you could have, say three lock on rockets that can each be detonated or one by one or even better full auto sticky bombs. Oh, the satisfaction that would make. Ah well, fingers crossed Hugo Martin sees this video.
100% agreed. I lost count times I swapped to Remote Det for a specific situation (Pinkies and Riot Soldiers), forgot about it, and when I wiped out the Rocket Launcher again I stood there like an idiot wondering why L2 wasn't doing anything.
yup, same with grenades. id consider myself a medium-skilled player, and combat still requires a good bit of focus. so keeping track of things while dodging everythin is a bit... overkill. i find myself losing track of what i have equipped pretty often, having to dip to safety to switch things out.
This is an interesting idea, but I think this could be done for the next Quake. In the Dissolution of Eternity expansion, some of your weapons get alternate ammo types - for instance you can get Lava Nails or Multi Rockets. If id does something like this for their next Quake, it'd give it a bit more identity.
I think this is an interesting topic, and I would agree that there is a mod problem to an extent, but I think there are other potential solutions. This reminds me of the two different schools of Devil May Cry fans - the ones that liked DMC3, which made you pick a loadout prior to each mission, and the ones that preferred DMC4/5s approach where you could have access to your full toolkit at all times. While the DMC4/5 approach was less restrictive, the DMC3 approach encouraged you to experiment more with the tools you'd picked and look for hidden depth and utility - you couldn't just swap to the "correct" tool at the moment you needed it. My solution for Doom's mod problem isn't a very unique one, but I think the underused mods need to be buffed to be more appealing. As you suggested, some mods are more situational than others, which gives the impression that they're worse. You could have them both be selectable without the need to swap between them, or alternatively you could try and give the situational mods some perks that give them a bit more utility against the wider roster of enemies. I suppose it depends what you want out of the combat system.
The reason I don’t see it as an issue is because it’s quite fast and that time is part of the decision making in combat. Knowing when a mod switch might be too risky or not. Not to mention you can cancel the animation with chainsaw or glory kill I-frames. I don’t think it’s an issue with the game just the players.
I see how you could "toggle" a weapon mod just like how you toggle the grenade and ice bomb. However I believe this would render the weapons over powered, at least for the current iteration of doom. I mean, there's people (including you) who finish the game on UN. If that type of mod-toggle was implemented, it would need a UN + HasteAI 2 + 25% demon damage in order to balance it out. Don't you think?
Think this is an interesting proposal. In the case of having a separate modifier key, I think the way to balance it is to have a certain wind up time when switching mod "modes" since otherwise, the Doom slayer's arsenal would be even more overpowered then it already is. Another possible addition that is a little overlooked is the possibility of having interesting weapon combos. Imagine firing a BFG round and switching to the ballista and firing the orb just as it reaches a particularly tanky demon to have it explode to deal massive additional damage that's a little more concentrated than the otherwise arena spanning tendrils of the BFG. Think of the classic shock rifle combo in unreal tournament except this is done with weapon swapping instead of different weapon modes. If they change the way remote detonation works so that their rockets move faster than the lock on ones, you could do combos between the two. Maybe, give a damage bonus to lock on rockets that explode due to a lock on rocket's AOE - or even add a laser to the pb so you can guide their trajectory using it's scope. Just spitballing ideas out here, I'm sure you can come up dozens of others.
That's a pretty interesting take. It also sounds like the most natural form of evolution of the weapons mods, given how the community already makes weapons that combine both mods with tricks, see the shield mobile turret chaingun. I guess it would also allow more space in the Doomslayer's arsenal as well?
I’ve often thought this myself. There’s no reason at all that the weapon mods can’t be on the weapons at the same time. Heavy Cannon for instance. So you take the scope off the top rail of the weapon just to put something on the side rails. Why can they not be there simultaneously and you can just toggle between them?
The easiest solution I feel would be to either speed up the swaping animation for mods or even replace it with the normal weapon swapping animation. (Though with this solution it may introduce being able to quick swap with the same weapon, and I don't think ID would want that.)
I disagree, you can find downtime in almost every combat and its not so long to not switch in between a blood punch. You still have grenades to use when switching too. This isnt a bad fix, but this 'problem' was the choice. It was intended to have this 2 second animation. Your playstyle changes in a more longterm way and you have to think if the long term is worth it. This encourages mod swapping and especially weapon switching much more than if you had it all on.
I don't agree with this, gotta say, though I appreciate the thought put into it. People keep trying to reduce problems like this-- which also includes the grenade type toggle system to some extent-- to just "how many buttons are there." Mayo has been talking about how there should just be two grenade commands, for example, instead of a grenade command and a swap command. It's the same number of buttons, so why not? There's a lot more to things like this than just how many buttons the controls require, though. The weapon mod command needs to be easily engaged and held in a way which does not interfere with your aiming *or* your movement. Right click is the most natural for this on PC, and the left trigger is the most natural for this on console controllers. This is the reason these are the defaults, and I really doubt there are a lot of players out there who change these. If you were to have a second weapon mod button-- so you can use either mod at any given time-- my question is, where would you put it by default? I'm sure most high-level players could figure out a good place for it, but we have to be aware that the vast majority of the player base will not do this. A lot of them will be playing with a a basic mouse that has no side buttons, or a default console controller which has no paddles. Telling consumers they have to buy new input hardware to play your game typically does not go over well, so the game has to be at least somewhat playable for these folks. I honestly don't think there is a better solution than what Id came up with. Another related issue is that, from a player-training perspective, DE already has *so* many different commands interacting with *so* many complex systems that it really is just overwhelming for most people, even on easier settings. The swapping systems allow players to-- without customizing the controls-- selectively disengage with some of these systems. Yeah, every weapon has two mods, and there are two grenade types, but all a new player has to do is pick a favorite in each scenario. The button they press to use the mod is the same, regardless of which one they pick. When they're ready to start experimenting, the swap commands are there and nothing needs to be changed to start using them. In this way, DE is a massively complex game which masquerades as a much simpler game until the player learns to engage with it, adding complexity bit-by-bit as they do so. I think a case could be made for speeding up mod switch animations, but I feel that doing anything much more radical than that would go against the design ethos which makes it so successful as a mainstream game which herds its player base towards more hardcore play.
For one, the timing helps balance the game. Another thing is that it actually keeps inputs more simple, I don't mean in terms of limited buttons on a controller or something, I mean in terms of getting confused. I don't think it would actually help many people, since you'd go for the weapon mod that is bound to the key that is easier to press while moving. It's also likely you'd press the wrong key by accident and still use the wrong mod. I may be wrong, but that's what I feel would happen, especially with the more general players.
When you use the weapon wheel you can choose to which mod version of the weapon you want to change. Otherwise i dont see this as a big problem at all. Meathook in the air change the respective mod midair and go to town.
Think of Dead space. Primary and secondary fire modes. This is especially relevant since in Doom Eternal, at least one fire mode is useless or redundant for almost all weapons... When one of the mods is removed, no weapon mod swapping is required. Combat shotgun: main fire (almost) useless Super shotgun: has only two fire modes already Heavy Cannon: main fire (almost) useless, micro missiles similar to chaingun Chaingun: main fire and mobile turret very similar Plasma Rifle: heat blast not very useful Ballista: main fire and arbalest similar Rocket Launcher: main fire and remote detonate similar Idea for a solution: Combat shotgun: replace main fire by full auto (no spin up) Heavy Cannon: remove micro missiles, improve main fire Chaingun: remove mobile turret (add spin-up to firing) Plasma Rifle: remove heat blast (or microwave beam) Ballista: replace main fire by arbalest Rocket Launcher: replace main fire by some sort of auto-remote detonate That way, most redundant mods are removed and the chaingun and ballista are higher-dps versions of the heavy cannon fire modes but with charge-up. Quickswitch experts might not like it though... But then again they might get in trouble for copying dead space's system.
its mod swapping speed that is the problem, also enemy types, you can deal with every single enemy easily with any weapon mod you want (not including spirit), enemies don't really "force" you to switch mods and take them out more effectively.
This. Especially in the master levels, I found that I would have to die to a certain scenario for the first time and then equip every weapon mod that would work best for that scenario before going back in. The issue is so many different types of enemies are attacking you at once that you can't switch mods fast enough to match them with the best strategy. I think this change would dramatically increase the skill ceiling as you would have so many options available to you at once. I would be interested to see if someone could mod this into the game. Seems like you could just speed up the swapping animation to be really fast, almost like a toggle.
There is but using a mod requires at a minimum two discrete actions - switching to that mod and then using that mod - 3 if you aren't already on that particular weapon. This would just require holding a different modifier key to use it - which we're not counting as a separate action the same way you don't refer to "control-c" as two keystrokes but one. Source: Emacs and Vim user - so you know my autism for keybindings is unmatched in the Umbriel planes.
It is way, way too slow. That's the problem. It should be instant, or AT LEAST the speed of a quick switch. Like putting away the old modded weapon, and picking up the very same weapon with the different mod, or having both mods on the same weapon, and just pressing a key and boom it's toggled. That's what we need. The mod swap animation is way too slow. When you are playing on a higher level, you simply don't have the capacity to constantly swap mods. And if you can't do it, you are missing out on game depth and are also causing unnecessry balance problems.
I 100% agree with this video. I always had the mod swapping issue. If you're supposed to use all of your arsenal in doom eternal, then why do you have to be locked away from half of it by the super long mod swap animation? They can fix it in the next doom game buy the solutions you provided. Edit: I forgot to say, people who use the weapon wheel (mostly on console) don't have this issue. Because they can switch to their preferred mod before bringing up the weapon.
I agree with this analysis but the reason for these changes IMHO seems to be consoles. Due to the very limited control schemes on them, games need to sometimes simplify controls for them. Alas, DOom Eternal is a Multiplat game so that is why it is the way it is.
There are enough buttons on a controller. If you move the grenades to the d-pad and use LT for a primary modifier key and LB as a secondary modifier key, it will work perfectly. There is no reason for the grenade button to be the LB, no other game does that.
@@doompenguin7453 I see. IDK since I dont use controllers for games. But I will take your word for it. Also the grenade switch button is useless in DOOM Eternal. We should just have a button for both nades.
@@doompenguin7453 Keep the mod swap button but basically just make mod swapping similar to swapping grenades and skip the animations. Although that makes individual designs for mods rather pointless 🤔
@@doompenguin7453 There are already too many actions in Eternal that require or benefit greatly from simply being to move and aim at the same time (aka keeping your thumbs on the sticks) that adding another modifier is definitely going to be cumbersome. A switch is better in that regard. But switching weapon mods is easier on a controller since it's using the weapon wheel, in which you can swap weapons mods on the fly without going through the animation as long as you don't already hold the weapon in your hand. I agree that the weapon mod switching animation adds little to the game tho.
I don't think there is a need for both mods to be equiped on the gun at once but that could be a good idea. For modifier key, I would love to replace it with double tap, let player bind the preferred mod to a tap of a key and double tap it to activate the other one and that's it
I love the idea of two separate mod activation buttons but playing on console like i do on PS5, you run into the problem of not having enough buttons. PS5 desperately needs an Elite Style DualSense controller. I love the Dual senses features, it is hands down the best console controller just not quite enough buttons.
You have enough buttons. The grenades can be moved to the d-pad and L1 and L2 can be used for the mods. You are already using 2 buttons for switching and using mods, what I suggest doesn't require more buttons than you are already using.
I get what you're saying however playing on xbox with an elite controller makes the game play a lot easier and smoother. It makes it so much faster with the extra buttons on the back. The PS5 has better graphics and the game runs way better on it vs. The xbox, I have both. All Im saying is Playstation needs to make an Elite style controller. Aside from hardware limitations your idea is great
I disagree that it's a problem. It adds tension and only an instant sacrificed to swap things out. Hypothetically, if the shotgun could fire a sticky grenade with the press of one of my side mouse buttons, and the full auto were prepped by holding down my right mouse button, that might be convenient, but I think many players would find it overcomplicated and they would just neglect the sticky bombs. I'm open to whatever, though, as long as it's good. Prodeus is spectacular, in case you haven't played it yet. Total Doom clone, but it feels like a real Doom 3 or something. The custom content is exciting. Hope it plays well with a controller, because I'm gonna try that out with the Steam Deck.
@@МихаилКрикуненко-т7б yes. If i can change 1 thing about Doom Eternal it will be to remove the annoying grenade toggle. It will be so much better to instantly fire the equipment of your choice using a single button press
anotjer problem is almost every weapons primary fire is useless thanks to the mods and some relevance has to be attached to it cuz Eternal practically made quickswapping the only way to beat the game
Sounds a bit like solving a complication with another complication. Mod swapping is a gameplay feature just the same as jumping, dashing, or shooting. If some players don't want to use that feature, then on their heads be it. High level players know to swap mods for the situation at hand, and the "reward" is smoother, more badass gameplay. But not all players even bother to learn precision bolt quickscope, let alone mid-combo mod swapping and the like. So it's really more a player-side issue than a dev-side issue. Players who want to mod swap will find ways to utilise it effectively. Players who just wanna run the DPS train on the demons with lock on rockets + destroyer blade are equally free to do so. I'd be weary of overstuffing console gamepads with tertiary fire modes when a simple mod swap button is sufficient.
Completely unrelated to the video... I just realised I've been watching this channel for some time without realising who it was... thanks for checking my scuffed content if you recognise me :)
I do not agree with this, every mod in this game is useful in many situations and scenarios, and players that have a more advanced understanding of the game mechanics know that and usually make use of all of them. One's failure to recognize that some combat encounters can be made much easier, and sometimes more rewarding, just by pressing a button is their own fault for not being willing to fully learn their weapons potential, and still having that delay for equipping them makes their positioning and timing more thought demanding just like equipment cooldowns. So I say let them struggle until eventually they learn and become better at the game understanding that for a bigger reward you have to spare some brain cells to plan accordingly.
Just so you know, the vast majority of top DE players, at least on pc, don't swap mods. Only possible exception would be the arbalest from time to time - and some very few players might do that on different weapons for stylistic reasons . I don't know, maybe there's a reason for that or maybe we are all stupid
@@sylar1313 Mod Swap canceling is actually super beneficial for high level DE play You can mod swap cancel just by using melee right after you press your melee bind, and there are other ways to do it as well You do melee cancels all the time with Sticky Bombs Take a basic Micro-Beam+PB+Rocket+Melee+ Nade+Lock-On combo for example In that combo, you can extend it by making the Rocket in that PB combo a Remote Det rocket, and you can add in a mod swap cancel for that Lock-On and keep the Nade for a second falter You can do alot of combo extensions with it
In a game like doom eternal where swapping weapons constantly is almost required to beat the higher difficulties, it's a dangerous choice to switch weapon mods mid combat. I frequently found myself using the "wrong" mod on a weapon because I couldn't spare the time to swap mods. As much as I love the animations in an artistic sense, a quick toggle with no animation would make the game's combat so much more fluid.
Agreed. It would make the game soo much more fun, and higher the already high difficulty ceiling.
Hello, may i introduce you to a game, ULTRAKILL, it is an amazing game that technically does not *require* quickswitching but the systems just lead you smoothly into quickswitching between weapons and alternatives of those weapons that are basically DOOM Eternal mods, i strongly recommend it, as i personally enjoy and play both games
I dont find a problem at all and I'm a console player it doesn't take time to switch and if your dying because of switching mods then I think it would be your problem with timing cause I switch mods all the time an never die cause of it and his point of people picking favorite mods is flawed but a simple statement and it's that each mod does something completely different like full auto is amazing with a stagger then full auto and I can kill a baron easily with it and sticky bombs can be used for cacaos and goof for spamming on mancubus and revenents cause it destroys all their weak points.
@@YexprilesteR DOOM Eternal is better in almost every way.
This makes me think that full auto mod should just replace the primary fire of the combat shotgun.
Holding destroyer blade charges airblast for Ballista, and holding M1 + M2 charges airblast. Single M1 for primary fire.
Micro missiles replace primary fire, and PB remains the same, however I can see how that can be kinda broken or people might not like that because they use primary fire for stagger on fodder.
This has some potential, good video.
I feel like you get the problem a lot more than others do. It's not that the "bad mods" are actually bad, but it's more that their uses are very niche, and using them comes at the price of the opportunity cost of the other mods.
I've been saying that while some mods are well designed in tandem since some are simply better for newer players and serve as teaching tools (micro Missiles vs precision bolt), stuff like Full Auto feels more like a noob trap on paper.
I think having Full Auto in particular as an upgraded base fire for Shotgun and having the mod button be Stickies at all times would make the gun more fun without any balance issues, and I'd like id to look into maybe working that kind of system into the next game.
micro missiles works alot better since in the beginning your dps is quite low, so having an option to swap to to just blast mfs away is quite valuable. in the beginning precision bolt is unnecessary since you have stickies as burst damage and the shotty is pretty bad for quickswapping. late game few players swap to it because ballista ssg and rockets are pretty op and make burst easy while the chaingun is the high dps option. overall they kinda screwed it with it's placement, personally i love it but they horribly sold it
I see your point and I can understand how the mod system may lead to one mod being favored, but I like it that you can't switch instantly. It means you have to make a conscious decision whether or not to sacrifice the time to switch, and it's that kind of decision making that makes Doom Eternal fun for me. I think it adds some tension and causes the player to use their critical thinking skills.
Its great to see a fellow Slayer and a fellow Stalker , Anomaly is a great standalone mod ı am doing a Invictus run right now.
If only I had a button that lets me switch at the drop of a hat...
I've also thought about this. Both mods equipped and having the mod swap button as a mod toggle button, meaning no mod swap animation. However, I think the enemies should be more aggressive to compensate for this because I think it could make the player too powerful.
I have been thinking of the use of double mods for a long time. Thank god you also agree. I've just never found a way of describing it or show my idea off. Ive had it at the front of my mind ever since that glitch was found when you could have both mods equipped and fire them at the same time. It would be so cool if you could have, say three lock on rockets that can each be detonated or one by one or even better full auto sticky bombs. Oh, the satisfaction that would make. Ah well, fingers crossed Hugo Martin sees this video.
100% agreed. I lost count times I swapped to Remote Det for a specific situation (Pinkies and Riot Soldiers), forgot about it, and when I wiped out the Rocket Launcher again I stood there like an idiot wondering why L2 wasn't doing anything.
yup, same with grenades. id consider myself a medium-skilled player, and combat still requires a good bit of focus. so keeping track of things while dodging everythin is a bit... overkill. i find myself losing track of what i have equipped pretty often, having to dip to safety to switch things out.
This is an interesting idea, but I think this could be done for the next Quake. In the Dissolution of Eternity expansion, some of your weapons get alternate ammo types - for instance you can get Lava Nails or Multi Rockets. If id does something like this for their next Quake, it'd give it a bit more identity.
I think this is an interesting topic, and I would agree that there is a mod problem to an extent, but I think there are other potential solutions. This reminds me of the two different schools of Devil May Cry fans - the ones that liked DMC3, which made you pick a loadout prior to each mission, and the ones that preferred DMC4/5s approach where you could have access to your full toolkit at all times. While the DMC4/5 approach was less restrictive, the DMC3 approach encouraged you to experiment more with the tools you'd picked and look for hidden depth and utility - you couldn't just swap to the "correct" tool at the moment you needed it. My solution for Doom's mod problem isn't a very unique one, but I think the underused mods need to be buffed to be more appealing. As you suggested, some mods are more situational than others, which gives the impression that they're worse. You could have them both be selectable without the need to swap between them, or alternatively you could try and give the situational mods some perks that give them a bit more utility against the wider roster of enemies. I suppose it depends what you want out of the combat system.
The biggest problem in Doom Eternal is that all the animations are just too good to give up on.
The reason I don’t see it as an issue is because it’s quite fast and that time is part of the decision making in combat. Knowing when a mod switch might be too risky or not. Not to mention you can cancel the animation with chainsaw or glory kill I-frames. I don’t think it’s an issue with the game just the players.
I see how you could "toggle" a weapon mod just like how you toggle the grenade and ice bomb. However I believe this would render the weapons over powered, at least for the current iteration of doom. I mean, there's people (including you) who finish the game on UN. If that type of mod-toggle was implemented, it would need a UN + HasteAI 2 + 25% demon damage in order to balance it out. Don't you think?
No, mod swap cancel tech is very beneficial for high level play, and removing it would take away from the techy aspect of DE
Think this is an interesting proposal. In the case of having a separate modifier key, I think the way to balance it is to have a certain wind up time when switching mod "modes" since otherwise, the Doom slayer's arsenal would be even more overpowered then it already is.
Another possible addition that is a little overlooked is the possibility of having interesting weapon combos. Imagine firing a BFG round and switching to the ballista and firing the orb just as it reaches a particularly tanky demon to have it explode to deal massive additional damage that's a little more concentrated than the otherwise arena spanning tendrils of the BFG. Think of the classic shock rifle combo in unreal tournament except this is done with weapon swapping instead of different weapon modes.
If they change the way remote detonation works so that their rockets move faster than the lock on ones, you could do combos between the two. Maybe, give a damage bonus to lock on rockets that explode due to a lock on rocket's AOE - or even add a laser to the pb so you can guide their trajectory using it's scope. Just spitballing ideas out here, I'm sure you can come up dozens of others.
That's a pretty interesting take. It also sounds like the most natural form of evolution of the weapons mods, given how the community already makes weapons that combine both mods with tricks, see the shield mobile turret chaingun. I guess it would also allow more space in the Doomslayer's arsenal as well?
I’ve often thought this myself. There’s no reason at all that the weapon mods can’t be on the weapons at the same time. Heavy Cannon for instance. So you take the scope off the top rail of the weapon just to put something on the side rails. Why can they not be there simultaneously and you can just toggle between them?
The easiest solution I feel would be to either speed up the swaping animation for mods or even replace it with the normal weapon swapping animation. (Though with this solution it may introduce being able to quick swap with the same weapon, and I don't think ID would want that.)
I disagree, you can find downtime in almost every combat and its not so long to not switch in between a blood punch. You still have grenades to use when switching too. This isnt a bad fix, but this 'problem' was the choice. It was intended to have this 2 second animation. Your playstyle changes in a more longterm way and you have to think if the long term is worth it. This encourages mod swapping and especially weapon switching much more than if you had it all on.
I don't agree with this, gotta say, though I appreciate the thought put into it.
People keep trying to reduce problems like this-- which also includes the grenade type toggle system to some extent-- to just "how many buttons are there." Mayo has been talking about how there should just be two grenade commands, for example, instead of a grenade command and a swap command. It's the same number of buttons, so why not?
There's a lot more to things like this than just how many buttons the controls require, though. The weapon mod command needs to be easily engaged and held in a way which does not interfere with your aiming *or* your movement. Right click is the most natural for this on PC, and the left trigger is the most natural for this on console controllers. This is the reason these are the defaults, and I really doubt there are a lot of players out there who change these.
If you were to have a second weapon mod button-- so you can use either mod at any given time-- my question is, where would you put it by default? I'm sure most high-level players could figure out a good place for it, but we have to be aware that the vast majority of the player base will not do this. A lot of them will be playing with a a basic mouse that has no side buttons, or a default console controller which has no paddles. Telling consumers they have to buy new input hardware to play your game typically does not go over well, so the game has to be at least somewhat playable for these folks. I honestly don't think there is a better solution than what Id came up with.
Another related issue is that, from a player-training perspective, DE already has *so* many different commands interacting with *so* many complex systems that it really is just overwhelming for most people, even on easier settings. The swapping systems allow players to-- without customizing the controls-- selectively disengage with some of these systems. Yeah, every weapon has two mods, and there are two grenade types, but all a new player has to do is pick a favorite in each scenario. The button they press to use the mod is the same, regardless of which one they pick. When they're ready to start experimenting, the swap commands are there and nothing needs to be changed to start using them. In this way, DE is a massively complex game which masquerades as a much simpler game until the player learns to engage with it, adding complexity bit-by-bit as they do so.
I think a case could be made for speeding up mod switch animations, but I feel that doing anything much more radical than that would go against the design ethos which makes it so successful as a mainstream game which herds its player base towards more hardcore play.
For one, the timing helps balance the game. Another thing is that it actually keeps inputs more simple, I don't mean in terms of limited buttons on a controller or something, I mean in terms of getting confused. I don't think it would actually help many people, since you'd go for the weapon mod that is bound to the key that is easier to press while moving. It's also likely you'd press the wrong key by accident and still use the wrong mod. I may be wrong, but that's what I feel would happen, especially with the more general players.
When you use the weapon wheel you can choose to which mod version of the weapon you want to change.
Otherwise i dont see this as a big problem at all. Meathook in the air change the respective mod midair and go to town.
Think of Dead space.
Primary and secondary fire modes.
This is especially relevant since in Doom Eternal, at least one fire mode is useless or redundant for almost all weapons...
When one of the mods is removed, no weapon mod swapping is required.
Combat shotgun: main fire (almost) useless
Super shotgun: has only two fire modes already
Heavy Cannon: main fire (almost) useless, micro missiles similar to chaingun
Chaingun: main fire and mobile turret very similar
Plasma Rifle: heat blast not very useful
Ballista: main fire and arbalest similar
Rocket Launcher: main fire and remote detonate similar
Idea for a solution:
Combat shotgun: replace main fire by full auto (no spin up)
Heavy Cannon: remove micro missiles, improve main fire
Chaingun: remove mobile turret (add spin-up to firing)
Plasma Rifle: remove heat blast (or microwave beam)
Ballista: replace main fire by arbalest
Rocket Launcher: replace main fire by some sort of auto-remote detonate
That way, most redundant mods are removed and the chaingun and ballista are higher-dps versions of the heavy cannon fire modes but with charge-up.
Quickswitch experts might not like it though...
But then again they might get in trouble for copying dead space's system.
I feel like even the existance of a toggle between mods contradicts this, because why would you toggle if you're using your preferred mod anyway?
its mod swapping speed that is the problem, also enemy types, you can deal with every single enemy easily with any weapon mod you want (not including spirit), enemies don't really "force" you to switch mods and take them out more effectively.
This. Especially in the master levels, I found that I would have to die to a certain scenario for the first time and then equip every weapon mod that would work best for that scenario before going back in. The issue is so many different types of enemies are attacking you at once that you can't switch mods fast enough to match them with the best strategy. I think this change would dramatically increase the skill ceiling as you would have so many options available to you at once. I would be interested to see if someone could mod this into the game. Seems like you could just speed up the swapping animation to be really fast, almost like a toggle.
I'm a bit confused. The game already has a mod toggle button that you can use on the fly.
There is but using a mod requires at a minimum two discrete actions - switching to that mod and then using that mod - 3 if you aren't already on that particular weapon. This would just require holding a different modifier key to use it - which we're not counting as a separate action the same way you don't refer to "control-c" as two keystrokes but one.
Source: Emacs and Vim user - so you know my autism for keybindings is unmatched in the Umbriel planes.
What I'm suggesting is to have a toggle key which lets you use the other mod instantly, without having to go through an animation.
It is way, way too slow. That's the problem. It should be instant, or AT LEAST the speed of a quick switch. Like putting away the old modded weapon, and picking up the very same weapon with the different mod, or having both mods on the same weapon, and just pressing a key and boom it's toggled. That's what we need. The mod swap animation is way too slow. When you are playing on a higher level, you simply don't have the capacity to constantly swap mods. And if you can't do it, you are missing out on game depth and are also causing unnecessry balance problems.
I agree, same thing as with two grenade modes
I 100% agree with this video. I always had the mod swapping issue. If you're supposed to use all of your arsenal in doom eternal, then why do you have to be locked away from half of it by the super long mod swap animation? They can fix it in the next doom game buy the solutions you provided.
Edit: I forgot to say, people who use the weapon wheel (mostly on console) don't have this issue. Because they can switch to their preferred mod before bringing up the weapon.
I agree with this analysis but the reason for these changes IMHO seems to be consoles. Due to the very limited control schemes on them, games need to sometimes simplify controls for them. Alas, DOom Eternal is a Multiplat game so that is why it is the way it is.
There are enough buttons on a controller. If you move the grenades to the d-pad and use LT for a primary modifier key and LB as a secondary modifier key, it will work perfectly. There is no reason for the grenade button to be the LB, no other game does that.
@@doompenguin7453 I see. IDK since I dont use controllers for games. But I will take your word for it.
Also the grenade switch button is useless in DOOM Eternal. We should just have a button for both nades.
@@doompenguin7453 Keep the mod swap button but basically just make mod swapping similar to swapping grenades and skip the animations.
Although that makes individual designs for mods rather pointless 🤔
@@doompenguin7453 There are already too many actions in Eternal that require or benefit greatly from simply being to move and aim at the same time (aka keeping your thumbs on the sticks) that adding another modifier is definitely going to be cumbersome. A switch is better in that regard.
But switching weapon mods is easier on a controller since it's using the weapon wheel, in which you can swap weapons mods on the fly without going through the animation as long as you don't already hold the weapon in your hand.
I agree that the weapon mod switching animation adds little to the game tho.
I don't think there is a need for both mods to be equiped on the gun at once but that could be a good idea. For modifier key, I would love to replace it with double tap, let player bind the preferred mod to a tap of a key and double tap it to activate the other one and that's it
Modders. I am waiting for ya!
I love the idea of two separate mod activation buttons but playing on console like i do on PS5, you run into the problem of not having enough buttons. PS5 desperately needs an Elite Style DualSense controller. I love the Dual senses features, it is hands down the best console controller just not quite enough buttons.
You have enough buttons. The grenades can be moved to the d-pad and L1 and L2 can be used for the mods. You are already using 2 buttons for switching and using mods, what I suggest doesn't require more buttons than you are already using.
I get what you're saying however playing on xbox with an elite controller makes the game play a lot easier and smoother. It makes it so much faster with the extra buttons on the back. The PS5 has better graphics and the game runs way better on it vs. The xbox, I have both. All Im saying is Playstation needs to make an Elite style controller. Aside from hardware limitations your idea is great
I disagree that it's a problem. It adds tension and only an instant sacrificed to swap things out. Hypothetically, if the shotgun could fire a sticky grenade with the press of one of my side mouse buttons, and the full auto were prepped by holding down my right mouse button, that might be convenient, but I think many players would find it overcomplicated and they would just neglect the sticky bombs. I'm open to whatever, though, as long as it's good.
Prodeus is spectacular, in case you haven't played it yet. Total Doom clone, but it feels like a real Doom 3 or something. The custom content is exciting. Hope it plays well with a controller, because I'm gonna try that out with the Steam Deck.
I agree, but I think this will make Doom something even closer to a fighting game than actual shooter.
Not saying it is somehow bad though :)
Dedicated button for both ice bomb and frag is something similar to that
@@МихаилКрикуненко-т7б yes. If i can change 1 thing about Doom Eternal it will be to remove the annoying grenade toggle. It will be so much better to instantly fire the equipment of your choice using a single button press
HLY FLOCK I ACTUALLY THOUGHT OF THE SAME THING! TO JUST HAVE BOTH AT THE SAME TIME WOULD MAKE THE GAME WAY MORE SPEEDY
anotjer problem is almost every weapons primary fire is useless thanks to the mods and some relevance has to be attached to it cuz Eternal practically made quickswapping the only way to beat the game
We need to use no mods like DOOM 1 and DOOM 2
Sounds a bit like solving a complication with another complication. Mod swapping is a gameplay feature just the same as jumping, dashing, or shooting. If some players don't want to use that feature, then on their heads be it. High level players know to swap mods for the situation at hand, and the "reward" is smoother, more badass gameplay. But not all players even bother to learn precision bolt quickscope, let alone mid-combo mod swapping and the like. So it's really more a player-side issue than a dev-side issue. Players who want to mod swap will find ways to utilise it effectively. Players who just wanna run the DPS train on the demons with lock on rockets + destroyer blade are equally free to do so. I'd be weary of overstuffing console gamepads with tertiary fire modes when a simple mod swap button is sufficient.
I absolutely agree!!
it's a good idea but i don't think id software gonna change that
I argee but I just keep swaping mods all the time a toggle would be great tho
Completely unrelated to the video... I just realised I've been watching this channel for some time without realising who it was... thanks for checking my scuffed content if you recognise me :)
yes
To much button smashing for what your talking about I think.. but hey, what do I know.
I do not agree with this, every mod in this game is useful in many situations and scenarios, and players that have a more advanced understanding of the game mechanics know that and usually make use of all of them. One's failure to recognize that some combat encounters can be made much easier, and sometimes more rewarding, just by pressing a button is their own fault for not being willing to fully learn their weapons potential, and still having that delay for equipping them makes their positioning and timing more thought demanding just like equipment cooldowns. So I say let them struggle until eventually they learn and become better at the game understanding that for a bigger reward you have to spare some brain cells to plan accordingly.
Just so you know, the vast majority of top DE players, at least on pc, don't swap mods. Only possible exception would be the arbalest from time to time - and some very few players might do that on different weapons for stylistic reasons . I don't know, maybe there's a reason for that or maybe we are all stupid
@@sylar1313 Mod Swap canceling is actually super beneficial for high level DE play
You can mod swap cancel just by using melee right after you press your melee bind, and there are other ways to do it as well
You do melee cancels all the time with Sticky Bombs
Take a basic Micro-Beam+PB+Rocket+Melee+ Nade+Lock-On combo for example
In that combo, you can extend it by making the Rocket in that PB combo a Remote Det rocket, and you can add in a mod swap cancel for that Lock-On and keep the Nade for a second falter
You can do alot of combo extensions with it
@@Sattylites are you a top DE player yourself? could u teach me how to do pb swaps i dont fully get it
Someone send this to Hugo.
o_0