Dodd was woeful....he can go down under for me tomorrow. Still no attack and still no kicker.. We didn't look confident. I fear its the end of an era. we've had 4 good years/ nothing lasts forever. Good luck to the Robins....I hope they bring the Challenge Cup home.
Questions need to be asked about the coaching staff now. 2nd time this year we’ve been folded like a deck chair and now have lost 4 games in a total of 11 (including the cup)
Given Hull KRs recent form and Saints stuttering performances this result was always a strong possibility. Apart from our pedestrian disjointed attack, defensively we uncharacteristically looked and were poor. Got to give Hull KR full credit as they deserved the win and looked sharp throughout. The Saints squad definitely needs a refresh at the end of the season. We are badly missing impact in the forwards atm. Lots of work needed on the training ground in the next few weeks.
Rovers were good today and no doubt Saints will bounce back. One aspect where Saints were exceptional was their fans, Obviously they were drowned out a little but whenever the East Stand were in full voice the Saints fans responded ...and they were the only team other than Hull FC to completely fill the away end at CP this season. Well done Saints fans.
80 mins of rugby and the only thing the ref needed to pull kr on was an accident offside...thats how you play a game and how a great sides discipline works
As a Rovers fan obviously fantastic result for us but as I say season after season St.helens at home regardless of form is such a huge dangerous game!, Capitalising off 2 Ryan Hall mistakes did wonders but the grit and determination off Hull KR won us the game, if Saints matched that it would be a different result, after the Welsby head knock he wasn’t the same player, not tooting the horn but Craven Park is a fortress right now which is what every side wants from their home ground, all credit to the travelling fans who made the journey today! We all know whether it’s Saints Vs Rovers or vice versa it’s a horrible journey so all credit to Saints for making that trip in solid numbers🫡
Our standards are slipping badly. Was it 23 missed tackles in the first half alone? Very poor. We only scored so easily in the first half because they gifted us position.
3 penalties a six again and a yellow card in the first 15 minutes of the game shocking discipline and a very poor (once again) performance from Saints. Hull KR fully deserved their win.
Every time the camera pans to the coaches box, there's 5+ hangers on... Holbrook/Woolf got the best from some average blokes and made everyone a better player, since the start of last season those same players are consistently getting worse
So you don't know who was sat in the box then? Them so called "hangers on" are the head of youth coach etc. Do your homework before somebody makes you look stupid. Or hold your tongue that way nobody see's that your stupid.
Great analysis lads. KR fan here. We were well beaten by Catalans a few weeks ago. It happens sometimes. I wouldn’t dwell on it. I’m sure you will be up there end of the season when it matters.
I missed today’s game.. I had a funny feeling that it might be Hull K R day … We had a good defence up until today .. conceding 40 points … Good for the super league when 6 teams are on 14 points…. I’ll be there at Castleford on Friday … It’s not the end of the world … learn from these mistakes today and put up a good performance on Friday as I’ll be there 😀
Credit to KR played as a team with individual excellence. We’ve lost our way completely and don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel this year. This result and that against Wire has been coming and may continue. Not sure we can turn this around, hopefully wrong 😩
They looked like they wanted it more, a lot more. Never seen Mbye so ineffective. Whether it was him or Clark at DH, they were outplayed by Litten, who had a great game. Even Welsby mostly wasn't incisive in attack, with too much lateral running to find a gap which wasn't there. So he couldn't "insert himself", as you put it, in his usual way. As far as the ref was concerned, you're right. Indeed, I thought KR suffered a couple of very harsh or marginal decisions in the first half. I was personally pleased to see Jack Broadbent have a decent game at 5 minutes' notice. I've never heard of a "19th man" before! One of the worst Leeds decisions was not to give him a new contract for last year. I thought he should form the centre pairing with Newman for a good few years ahead, but he's proved his quality since being found surplus to requirements. Now he's at KR, he'll have further opportunities to shine, in one or another of the positions he can cover, and he'll probably make us pay along the way! I know it's only a season loan so far, but KR have made it clear they want him. I wish him the best!
Always worried about Saints and glad we played how we did and its awesome you guys can admit defeat fairly and concisely, we really want to be part of the conversion in the best teams in super league this season and apart from the Catalan blip I think we are almost there. COYR
I am not a saint's fan but i think the problem like all other clubs is injuries not coaching , saints are still in the top end off the league, its the most competitive year for super league any team can win just what we wanted ,
We cannot win every game . Sack the coach ,That won us the WCC in Aus . Only last season . In coaching terms he is still.young .id rather get the bad games out the way early,It's the end that matters .The more I see you tube posts and on saints related social media groups,If it carries on ,We are going to turn into football . sack each coach after a few games ..Chelsea last coach won the Champs league then super cup,Then WCC ,The three biggest trophies in club football,Five games in the new season sacked.Take loses as you do wins,They learn from it .Win or lose I'm saints til I die .get behind them . If U went into a book makers before season started Hull K,R were third favourite for winning Grand Final . So we have a off day ,And get best ,By. Team that has prob recruited best. If any team ,And lose.Wellens out .Get a grip
@@paulbrophy9702 Let's be honest, the WCC was Woolfe's team. He was even sat in the box! Since then we've been absolutely terrible. Our attack, last kick plays, now defence has been poor. He's had 15mths and it's getting worse. Plus, we've been burnt with nepotism before remember... And we all know how that went.
@@paulbrophy9702 hardly like football Paul. Based on that logic, we’d have sacked wello after losing at Wigan last year. The difference is, it’s now been 15 months and we’ve got worse. Even when we’re winning, like Huddersfield last week, it’s a poor performance. This team is not a patch on the 4 peat winning side. Results wise and most importantly, performance wise. I appreciate ‘We cannot win every game’ but it’s the performances over the last 15 months that has been like pulling teeth. We’re losing vital games now, off the back of it. This does not win Championships, which is what we strive to do at St Helens.
Excellent reaction for me honest and balanced. . We lost all the battles today. The big areas. We lack aggression and composure. Some of the kicks in play today was awful. Discipline dreadful. Not single out any out. Collective issues. Work to do . Matt dootson
Very poor today second half was embarrassing at times, we never seem to change the tactics same old kick at the end, the opposition know what we are going to do, and they know how to get past us on the outside, we need major coaching changes, punching well above our weight.
I did think your last tackle kicking game was very poor. Not one kick was a threat at all. I thought Lomax was totally anonymous, and Dodd even worse. Welsby is some player though,
Too many things wrong yesterday to pinpoint them all. But I think it was negligent to not bring in a prop before the season started - even just a one year deal for an older forward who can make yards would have been better than going with second rowers covering there. We won 4 titles in a row, but we mustn't have made much money because everything seems to be being done on the cheap. Should always strengthen the squad when you're on top
Team's age pal you's can't win it every year as a wigan I'd made up if we ever won the super league 4 years on the run, but yh saints should of been bringing more younger talent in the squad every year but then again you's of probably wouldn't of got the 4 in row,. Sometimes you've got to take the ruff with the smooth
The list of clubs Saints wouldn’t want to play away in a play-off game is growing. I could be conservative and name 4. Unless the team start scoring points it’s more likely any play-off game (and that’s by no means certain) will be away. Aging players. Players leaving. Poor recruitment - with diminishing ’value for money’ on our restricted salary cap spending. And the young kids signing for rival clubs more and more with our system and facilities lagging behind. The Hull KR defeat (and well done to KR - great rugby!) is more than just a bad day at the office.
All those things that you say need changing have been an issue for a while now and has been the job of the coaching staff to fix, which they haven’t. The players clearly aren’t thriving playing for Wellens
But i back wellens 100 percent. We are also hitting a transition period and we will be going over some mountains over the next few months. No need for knee jerk reactions
Another constipated performance against a team who were able to counter Saints’ every move, especially in the second half. Our attacking is getting worse, teams reading us easily and countering every predictable play. Rovers can play off the cuff, Saints can’t, just reverting to “solid” and “safe” plays, like giving the ball to Konrad to try and trundle upfield. Dodd adding nothing at the moment. Lacking firepower in the forwards. Apart from Welsby and Jonny, there’s no real tactical direction. We have become formulaic and predictable, hence the physical, emotional and collective collapses we have suffered (Warrington and now HKR), and which are likely to be repeated if we don’t make some serious changes. Not an entirely unpredictable result, but the scale of the defeat needs urgent attention!
Very poor all round today! Attack is pathetic. Welsby looks lost as no one is on the same wavelength as him. Don’t think Ritson did much wrong…barr that woeful attempt to tackle hall at the end.
I think Welsby has gone down without some good coaching, he's no longer the player that got that brilliant try in KCOM, and no longer the best of the young ones.
I've never rated wellness has a coach but has a player he was awesome but for me he is like cunningham picking his favourite players I feel sorry for Ribston
@daverave9942 0 seconds ago If you watch the last try Ritson was left exposed with a 2 v 1 then as he went for Hall the other KR player obstructs him and makes contact nudging him off balance. Should have been a Pen to Saints but it was on the hooter ant the game was lost long before.
@@daverave9942 if so, it sort of balances things out. Namely the improper play of the ball before your third try, much like Sue's that handed your second try to you.
@@daverave9942, yeah it meant nothing in the grand scheme of things, but should have been picked up. Maybe Ritson needed to make a meal of it and complain
Teams are improving but Saints are not Hull played like saints did in the past backing each other up haveing the will to win attitude Teams are getting better we need to look at the team wheres it going?
Dodd was utterly clueless. He couldn't tackle my granny. His kicking game.....well WHAT kicking game. Its dire. Can't wait to see the back of him. A waste of a shirt. I'm sorry but, Wellens needs to go, as does the so called attacking coach. What on earth are the team being coached????.
Not good enough. Defence used to be our strength. Wello may not be sacked but I won't be happy if he gets an extension unless there are drastic changes in performance
Hes not that good. He is beginning to grate when interviewed. He spouts the same crap after every defeat. Just soundbites and rhetoric. He hasn't got a clue. It's not all the players fault. It's the coaching that's dire.
Stop giving coaching jobs to ex saints players and start employing the best man for the job and not your mates. I wouldn't mind if they were good to watch but the style of play is boring as hell.
I think Hull KR are the best team is super league. I've said so many times and before the season started they will win a trophy this year. Summed up quite well by you guys The Knowles yellow was a horrendous decision. Him and Lees get unfairly penalised time and time again. I agree there were some promising signs in attack. Dodd at times just doesn't look to be giving 100% effort. Or he has lost some pace since his injury Still massively disjointed at times. Percival makes some nice runs and then whoever needs to pass doesn't or gets it wrong. Percival then tries to make up for that by coming inside when he has the ball when he should be passing to Blake. Tee will be unlucky not to stay in but its Tommy Mak so i can't see him keeping his place. Welsby has been so inconsistent this year. Has his moments of course Lomax with a magical play that setup one of the tries Sironen in for Batch. Bell to start with Knowles as prop seems to be so obvious to me.
I can't agree with it being a bad decision for the yellow, it was bordering a red for me. And while Sue was penalised for not playing the ball correctly, a couple tackles before trying number three for saints was played just as incorrectly, if not more. A good amount of times Kendall held off on an offside and gave a back to one after two or three repeat offences, holding the ball down, our player being pushed down onto yours and we're punished for it while he's trying to get up, Kendall did the same old shit of being lenient for you guys. We just gave him nothing to be harsh about.
@yrknutzreek from the replays it was hit on the chest. Not one angle showed any contact to the head. I'm not saying the ref was overly biased.. just that was not high at all.
@@creativeartist83 from my perspective, being at the ground, I have to strongly disagree, it was contact with the head. I'll get back to you when the highlights are posted.
Dodd was woeful....he can go down under for me tomorrow. Still no attack and still no kicker.. We didn't look confident. I fear its the end of an era.
we've had 4 good years/ nothing lasts forever.
Good luck to the Robins....I hope they bring the Challenge Cup home.
Even as a wigan fan I'd rather team from the north win than them there fans are scum
Questions need to be asked about the coaching staff now. 2nd time this year we’ve been folded like a deck chair and now have lost 4 games in a total of 11 (including the cup)
For 14 months now Dodd perfecting the art of looking busy but doing fu*% all
It's looking a bit like Eastmond again when he completely lost interest
Why aren’t the pundits calling out Lewis Dodd……. He is absolutely garbage….
Hope the club take action against the behaviour of some of our supporters today, it wasn’t just in the ground but outside too.
Which side?
@@yrknutzreek St.Helens
@@RivingtonAve remind me, what exactly happened?
Given Hull KRs recent form and Saints stuttering performances this result was always a strong possibility. Apart from our pedestrian disjointed attack, defensively we uncharacteristically looked and were poor. Got to give Hull KR full credit as they deserved the win and looked sharp throughout. The Saints squad definitely needs a refresh at the end of the season. We are badly missing impact in the forwards atm. Lots of work needed on the training ground in the next few weeks.
1:08 Tbf we’ve never looked dangerous from deep for four years now.
Rovers were good today and no doubt Saints will bounce back. One aspect where Saints were exceptional was their fans, Obviously they were drowned out a little but whenever the East Stand were in full voice the Saints fans responded ...and they were the only team other than Hull FC to completely fill the away end at CP this season. Well done Saints fans.
You two actually struggling to be your usual ‘yes men’ here
80 mins of rugby and the only thing the ref needed to pull kr on was an accident offside...thats how you play a game and how a great sides discipline works
As a Rovers fan obviously fantastic result for us but as I say season after season St.helens at home regardless of form is such a huge dangerous game!, Capitalising off 2 Ryan Hall mistakes did wonders but the grit and determination off Hull KR won us the game, if Saints matched that it would be a different result, after the Welsby head knock he wasn’t the same player, not tooting the horn but Craven Park is a fortress right now which is what every side wants from their home ground, all credit to the travelling fans who made the journey today! We all know whether it’s Saints Vs Rovers or vice versa it’s a horrible journey so all credit to Saints for making that trip in solid numbers🫡
Our standards are slipping badly. Was it 23 missed tackles in the first half alone? Very poor. We only scored so easily in the first half because they gifted us position.
3 penalties a six again and a yellow card in the first 15 minutes of the game shocking discipline and a very poor (once again) performance from Saints. Hull KR fully deserved their win.
Every time the camera pans to the coaches box, there's 5+ hangers on... Holbrook/Woolf got the best from some average blokes and made everyone a better player, since the start of last season those same players are consistently getting worse
So you don't know who was sat in the box then? Them so called "hangers on" are the head of youth coach etc. Do your homework before somebody makes you look stupid. Or hold your tongue that way nobody see's that your stupid.
As a footnote to what i said earlier....i still think were missing Robes....he was an inspiration
Great analysis lads. KR fan here. We were well beaten by Catalans a few weeks ago. It happens sometimes. I wouldn’t dwell on it. I’m sure you will be up there end of the season when it matters.
I missed today’s game.. I had a funny feeling that it might be Hull K R day … We had a good defence up until today .. conceding 40 points … Good for the super league when 6 teams are on 14 points…. I’ll be there at Castleford on Friday … It’s not the end of the world … learn from these mistakes today and put up a good performance on Friday as I’ll be there 😀
KR are serious competitors for the league this year
Credit to KR played as a team with individual excellence. We’ve lost our way completely and don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel this year. This result and that against Wire has been coming and may continue. Not sure we can turn this around, hopefully wrong 😩
How lewis dodd thinks he's good enough for australia I will never know
They looked like they wanted it more, a lot more. Never seen Mbye so ineffective. Whether it was him or Clark at DH, they were outplayed by Litten, who had a great game. Even Welsby mostly wasn't incisive in attack, with too much lateral running to find a gap which wasn't there. So he couldn't "insert himself", as you put it, in his usual way.
As far as the ref was concerned, you're right. Indeed, I thought KR suffered a couple of very harsh or marginal decisions in the first half.
I was personally pleased to see Jack Broadbent have a decent game at 5 minutes' notice. I've never heard of a "19th man" before! One of the worst Leeds decisions was not to give him a new contract for last year. I thought he should form the centre pairing with Newman for a good few years ahead, but he's proved his quality since being found surplus to requirements. Now he's at KR, he'll have further opportunities to shine, in one or another of the positions he can cover, and he'll probably make us pay along the way! I know it's only a season loan so far, but KR have made it clear they want him. I wish him the best!
Always worried about Saints and glad we played how we did and its awesome you guys can admit defeat fairly and concisely, we really want to be part of the conversion in the best teams in super league this season and apart from the Catalan blip I think we are almost there. COYR
I am not a saint's fan but i think the problem like all other clubs is injuries not coaching , saints are still in the top end off the league, its the most competitive year for super league any team can win just what we wanted ,
A few weeks ago, Saints could do no wrong - all of a sudden they can't work out what they were doing right.
Wellens has to go. We are going nowhere with him in charge.
We cannot win every game . Sack the coach ,That won us the WCC in Aus . Only last season . In coaching terms he is still.young .id rather get the bad games out the way early,It's the end that matters .The more I see you tube posts and on saints related social media groups,If it carries on ,We are going to turn into football . sack each coach after a few games ..Chelsea last coach won the Champs league then super cup,Then WCC ,The three biggest trophies in club football,Five games in the new season sacked.Take loses as you do wins,They learn from it .Win or lose I'm saints til I die .get behind them . If U went into a book makers before season started Hull K,R were third favourite for winning Grand Final . So we have a off day ,And get best ,By. Team that has prob recruited best. If any team ,And lose.Wellens out .Get a grip
Ellery. For a season
@@paulbrophy9702 Let's be honest, the WCC was Woolfe's team. He was even sat in the box! Since then we've been absolutely terrible. Our attack, last kick plays, now defence has been poor. He's had 15mths and it's getting worse. Plus, we've been burnt with nepotism before remember... And we all know how that went.
@@paulbrophy9702 hardly like football Paul. Based on that logic, we’d have sacked wello after losing at Wigan last year.
The difference is, it’s now been 15 months and we’ve got worse. Even when we’re winning, like Huddersfield last week, it’s a poor performance. This team is not a patch on the 4 peat winning side. Results wise and most importantly, performance wise.
I appreciate ‘We cannot win every game’ but it’s the performances over the last 15 months that has been like pulling teeth. We’re losing vital games now, off the back of it. This does not win Championships, which is what we strive to do at St Helens.
Excellent reaction for me honest and balanced. . We lost all the battles today. The big areas. We lack aggression and composure. Some of the kicks in play today was awful. Discipline dreadful. Not single out any out. Collective issues. Work to do . Matt dootson
Very poor today second half was embarrassing at times, we never seem to change the tactics same old kick at the end, the opposition know what we are going to do, and they know how to get past us on the outside, we need major coaching changes, punching well above our weight.
I did think your last tackle kicking game was very poor. Not one kick was a threat at all. I thought Lomax was totally anonymous, and Dodd even worse. Welsby is some player though,
Too many things wrong yesterday to pinpoint them all. But I think it was negligent to not bring in a prop before the season started - even just a one year deal for an older forward who can make yards would have been better than going with second rowers covering there.
We won 4 titles in a row, but we mustn't have made much money because everything seems to be being done on the cheap. Should always strengthen the squad when you're on top
Team's age pal you's can't win it every year as a wigan I'd made up if we ever won the super league 4 years on the run, but yh saints should of been bringing more younger talent in the squad every year but then again you's of probably wouldn't of got the 4 in row,. Sometimes you've got to take the ruff with the smooth
The list of clubs Saints wouldn’t want to play away in a play-off game is growing. I could be conservative and name 4. Unless the team start scoring points it’s more likely any play-off game (and that’s by no means certain) will be away. Aging players. Players leaving. Poor recruitment - with diminishing ’value for money’ on our restricted salary cap spending. And the young kids signing for rival clubs more and more with our system and facilities lagging behind. The Hull KR defeat (and well done to KR - great rugby!) is more than just a bad day at the office.
I'd say 8 teams would fancy there chances in a playoff game.
All those things that you say need changing have been an issue for a while now and has been the job of the coaching staff to fix, which they haven’t. The players clearly aren’t thriving playing for Wellens
It's called having an aging team nothing to do with wellins any coach would of been doing the same if not worse
@@ryanmcguinness7898 what a load of shit. The players don’t go downhill that quickly. There’s a common factor in us becoming shite.
Think a lot of comments on here missing the point ,to many good players are going backwards and questions need to be asked why ?
Craven Street is a copy of Toronto ground.
But i back wellens 100 percent. We are also hitting a transition period and we will be going over some mountains over the next few months. No need for knee jerk reactions
Another constipated performance against a team who were able to counter Saints’ every move, especially in the second half. Our attacking is getting worse, teams reading us easily and countering every predictable play. Rovers can play off the cuff, Saints can’t, just reverting to “solid” and “safe” plays, like giving the ball to Konrad to try and trundle upfield. Dodd adding nothing at the moment. Lacking firepower in the forwards. Apart from Welsby and Jonny, there’s no real tactical direction. We have become formulaic and predictable, hence the physical, emotional and collective collapses we have suffered (Warrington and now HKR), and which are likely to be repeated if we don’t make some serious changes. Not an entirely unpredictable result, but the scale of the defeat needs urgent attention!
Very poor all round today! Attack is pathetic. Welsby looks lost as no one is on the same wavelength as him.
Don’t think Ritson did much wrong…barr that woeful attempt to tackle hall at the end.
I think Welsby has gone down without some good coaching, he's no longer the player that got that brilliant try in KCOM, and no longer the best of the young ones.
I've never rated wellness has a coach but has a player he was awesome but for me he is like cunningham picking his favourite players I feel sorry for Ribston
@daverave9942
0 seconds ago
If you watch the last try Ritson was left exposed with a 2 v 1 then as he went for Hall the other KR player obstructs him and makes contact nudging him off balance. Should have been a Pen to Saints but it was on the hooter ant the game was lost long before.
@@daverave9942 if so, it sort of balances things out. Namely the improper play of the ball before your third try, much like Sue's that handed your second try to you.
@@daverave9942, yeah it meant nothing in the grand scheme of things, but should have been picked up. Maybe Ritson needed to make a meal of it and complain
Teams are improving but Saints are not Hull played like saints did in the past backing each other up haveing the will to win attitude Teams are getting better we need to look at the team wheres it going?
Hull KR, not Hull.Get it right.
Dodd was utterly clueless. He couldn't tackle my granny. His kicking game.....well WHAT kicking game. Its dire. Can't wait to see the back of him. A waste of a shirt. I'm sorry but, Wellens needs to go, as does the so called attacking coach. What on earth are the team being coached????.
Not good enough. Defence used to be our strength. Wello may not be sacked but I won't be happy if he gets an extension unless there are drastic changes in performance
We can keep picking up on players etc.. but it's man managament and coaching that just isn't up to scratch.
What is Smith doing in the box he’s the Women’s team coach 👎🏉
Wellens has to be the worst coach saints have had in 20 years
Hes not that good. He is beginning to grate when interviewed. He spouts the same crap after every defeat. Just soundbites and rhetoric. He hasn't got a clue. It's not all the players fault. It's the coaching that's dire.
Wellens out
I’m sorry this coach isn’t good enough we need a change
yr not that good so guess you'll sack Wellens and swoop for the Aussie coach, chairman on the blower now to Aus
Stop giving coaching jobs to ex saints players and start employing the best man for the job and not your mates. I wouldn't mind if they were good to watch but the style of play is boring as hell.
I think Hull KR are the best team is super league.
I've said so many times and before the season started they will win a trophy this year.
Summed up quite well by you guys
The Knowles yellow was a horrendous decision. Him and Lees get unfairly penalised time and time again.
I agree there were some promising signs in attack.
Dodd at times just doesn't look to be giving 100% effort. Or he has lost some pace since his injury
Still massively disjointed at times.
Percival makes some nice runs and then whoever needs to pass doesn't or gets it wrong.
Percival then tries to make up for that by coming inside when he has the ball when he should be passing to Blake.
Tee will be unlucky not to stay in but its Tommy Mak so i can't see him keeping his place.
Welsby has been so inconsistent this year. Has his moments of course
Lomax with a magical play that setup one of the tries
Sironen in for Batch.
Bell to start with Knowles as prop seems to be so obvious to me.
I can't agree with it being a bad decision for the yellow, it was bordering a red for me. And while Sue was penalised for not playing the ball correctly, a couple tackles before trying number three for saints was played just as incorrectly, if not more. A good amount of times Kendall held off on an offside and gave a back to one after two or three repeat offences, holding the ball down, our player being pushed down onto yours and we're punished for it while he's trying to get up, Kendall did the same old shit of being lenient for you guys. We just gave him nothing to be harsh about.
@yrknutzreek from the replays it was hit on the chest. Not one angle showed any contact to the head.
I'm not saying the ref was overly biased.. just that was not high at all.
@@creativeartist83 from my perspective, being at the ground, I have to strongly disagree, it was contact with the head. I'll get back to you when the highlights are posted.
Not understanding Knowles yellow card at all right shot neutral fan
Hull KR won't win anything