It was being discussed on the car radio today and the reviewers (they were asking about favourite musicals) and the new one was universally paaned ecause of the sound and the vocals.
Yes, there's no incentive now to want to sing well, to be an artist. It's bastardized by the bean-counting executives again who'll just pay a gadget nerd to make everyone sound the same no matter their talent level, artistic soul, or lack thereof. Why respect someone who practices to develop their voice when all that's needed is to take any karaoke clown off the street and auto tune them? It's ruining the industry.
What talented singers? I seriously doubt they were that talented or they wouldn't have spent the money to autotune them. Reminds me of those Disney remakes of animated movies with live action like that Emma Watson that couldn't sing out of a paper bag so they autotuned the hell out of her.
Thank you for explaining why, as an old musical lover, why I just cannot seem to enjoy newer versions of the music of the past. I could not understand why there was something missing, something just not right. Now I understand. This particular original musical gave us so many great tunes to play in our heads over and over again. I tried to watch the new version and got 10 minutes in before I quit. There was just something not right with it. You answered that.
I feel the same way and can tell immediately when something's been auto-tuned, whether on radio or youtube. I can't listen to new music anymore. Interestingly, a guy who commented on another of Fils' videos said he liked it and that anyone can sound great with it, thinks it's really cool, then told me to "get off my high horse" for saying it doesn't sound good to my ear. It's unfortunate for him that he's been spoon fed this new stuff and won't eat anything else.
Everyone here who has mentioned Marni Nixon - did you know she was actually ON SCREEN as one of the nuns in The Sound of Music? She sang on screen with her own voice as Sister Sophia in the song "Maria"! As a child, I found that fascinating and thought others might as well.
AutoPitch Correction Software 101- thank you Fil for showing the ugly of natural voice manipulation and helping us develop the ear to hear the technical manipulation. “We are not getting to hear the singer’s natural voice.” This is not a critical response of the performers but the industry’s manipulation of vocals. Ugh. Keep doing your analyses Fil. Rock!
I am in my late 60's and for the past year or more, I have been viewing reaction videos of people worldwide in their 40's or younger, reacting to performers/groups of the 1950's through to 1980's, whether a live performance or in a TV studio on a live TV show, and they are blown away, amazed at how good their voices and harmonies are without auto tune or pitch software or any other software manipulation. Yes, they dubbed voices in the recording studios over voices, but did not change the actual voice, only placed it in where they wanted it to be. Your analysis of these 2 film versions of West Side Story confirms my opinion of today's music, that it misses character and expression within the voice when listened to on the radio. I'm sure it would be a different sound in a live performance.
If you want to see some REALLY great reactions, watch the young people between 25-40 listening "blindfolded" so to speak, of LIVE performances of The Carpenters. Many are very shocked that The Carpenters were so young, &vso rich sounding & WHITE! But they LOVE them! And they LOVE Karen Carpenter's rich deep vocal range. These times produced REAL singers. And there are not many new up & coming, TRUE singers around today. (Watch Jamel/Jamal's reaction to The Carpenters. It nearly brought him to tears.)
I love all the little details you point out in your analysis Fil 👍 It's a shame that technology in the recording industry has taken away the pure joys of hearing natural human vocal tones. 🎶🎼🎵
I don't recall anyone saying it was Natalie Woods' singing voice that ended up on the film, though it was she who was originally recorded. It's well reported that it was Marnis' vocal over dubbing Natalie in the film, which was done before release. Many people are making that point but I don't think it needed to be made. Who said the vocals on the film were Natalies'?
@@albertschepis No one said that it was Natalie Wood, but the video itself is tagged on the bottom (no why of knowing by whom) "Natalie Wood's vocal in 1961." I think that's what people are referring to.
S. Speilberg decided that a politically correct WSS was a good idea. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it is one of the biggest box office bombs in recent history.
one thing i enjoy about your videos is the diversity of genres you delve into - you aren't just all about "rock", as you simply appreciate talent and skill, whatever the source. keep up the great work, fil, thank you!
I was 13 years old when this movie came out, and went to the movies and saw it and I was amazed at the story, the acting in the music. Thanks for reacting to an iconic film and music
I was a few years too young to see it in the theater when it opened, but I saw it on TV and listened to the song track on 8 track tape cassette for years as a teenager.
The original vocal sounds so much nicer to my ear. Interesting point you made about many of us not enjoying/appreciating modern music because much of it all sounds exactly the same. I have said this & now I understand why. Thank you
I'm not a singer but I think, if I was, I would want to scream, "How dare you do this to my voice and my interpretation!?" It's like someone taking a painting from an artist and tidying up the lines, changing the colours to an agreed standard pallette, sanding out any texture etc before exhibiting it because they consider they can improve on their work. The singer is an artist too.
Perfect analogy. Unfortunately, even artists who have perfect pitch will choose to use auto tune these days if for no reason than just as an effect. Rick Beato has a video where he talks about this. Younger artists have had their ears trained to this crap and actually favor the mechanized perfection over character, as you say. It’s why so much new music sounds soulless and unable to convey real emotion to us older people who didn’t have our ears trained or ruined rather by hearing nothing but constant perfection.
But, for me, I think what they're doing is taking a lot of singers who really *aren't* very talented, but maybe have some other quality they can sell, and making them sound "good." Maybe they're attractive, or maybe they're more easily manipulated, or maybe they're somebody's neice or grandson, or maybe they fit a certain demographic, or gawd-knows-what other reason. And, I suspect so many younger people who woud otherwise remain unknown are not only perfectly willing, but thrilled to go along with it so they can get rich and famous. (Because I doubt very much that any truly talented and serious artist would allow him/herself to be manipulated like that for money.) And, for me, that's unforgiveable. It is destructive to the art of music and to singing. And that's why anyone over 45 or 50 probably thinks today's "music" is mostly crap. But, hey, somebody's making money!!
@@carolinej3661 yeah, Hollywood has been prettying up mediocre talent since way before pro tools were a thing. At least you could rationalize that there were actually talented human beings backing them up back in the day though. lol
Thanks for posting this. Did you ever listen to the Carol Lawrence Broadway stage recording of West Side Story? Very expressive & full body voice. Wasn't Rita Moreno in all 3 versions?
@@tonyallen1019 I was going to write the same comment about Carol Lawrence as well as Larry Kert who played the first Tony on Broadway. Fabulous voices.
Fil...you really nailed why older people can't get into most current singers. Pitch correction etc, sucks the life out of a vocal. FYI...as mentioned Marni Nixon not only dubbed Natalie Wood, she dubbed Deborah Kerr in The King and I and Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady. She was married to film composer Elmer Bernstein. Her son was Andrew Gold, Thank You For Being A Friend ( Golden Girls) and several other songs.
Saw the original aged 12 (fell forever in love with Natalie Wood, even if she didn't do her own singing), and it's still, for me, the best musical Hollywood ever produced. It did Not. Need. A. Remake. That said, I can't hear a vocal and say "that's pitch corrected" -- I don't have the trained ear for that -- but I do listen to the new one and think, "Why does that sound sort of lifeless?" So, this analysis has been really valuable for me.Thanks!
Great presentation Fil! 1961 is a fabulous part of an absolutely gorgeous score. 2021 is simply painful to listen to. Almost like going from the "beauty" to the "beast"!
Beautiful breakdown, as usual. The idea of voices needing to work in context with the instrumental backing is something so many people don't even grasp. (Also, within the last month I've heard both Brenden Ure and Florence Welch in concert, and they sounded just as amazing on stage as they do recorded. This practice has become so popular because, sadly, there are so many untalented singers in the spotlight these days.)
Rant justified, and accepted! What scares me is the thought that eventually producers & engineers will put in slight offsets and pitch variations, after modifying the voice to the pitch they deem correct. Ugh!
That was so amazing!! You are so good at your analyses. I love that you did something so different - a musical.!! You have an appreciation for all types of music and voices. You rock, Fil.
Marni Nixon dubbed the lead not only here but many others, such as My Fair Lady and The King and I. Her contract stipulated that she never reveal it, but Deborah Kerr (The King and I) spilled the beans and Marni Nixon's other dubs eventually became known. After hearing this, it would would be interesting to analyze Marni in these other movies to see if her pitch accuracy was sometimes better, because her whole goal was to mimic the expression of the lead actress. Deborah Kerr described how Marni would stand next to her, and listen to her singing and accent, while watching her facial expression in order to get the dub as close as possible to represent a stronger version of Kerr's voice.
The original West Side Story blew me away, so much so that l went 14 times to see it. It remains my favourite musical of all time. Thanks for the rundown here on modern musical tweaking
West Side Story is one of my favorite musicals including the choreography. I still enjoy watching it and believe Natalie's vocals were dubbed. I have not seen the remake but great analysis pointing out the differences on the pitch monitor.
I still have and occasionally watch and listen to WSS (1) ever since I saw it with my parents in '61. It's absolutely brilliant. Can't say the same about the modern version. And as I suspected, it is autotuned. Ugh! - Where have all the real songs gone? (Long time passing.) When will they ever learn?
Thank you for this. I studied with Marni Nixon, who sang Maria in the 1961 version. She was an absolute master - and the difference when I watched the 2021 version, I felt that voices were lovely but were lacking "warmth". Now I know why.
You know something has gone horribly wrong. LOL. I grew up with the song Maria. People would sing my name. I wanted to change my name. Lol. A human voice can't be straight on the line. Just not possible. I love these analyses. I learn so much about music and songs.
thank you for the comparison. ok, for me, the one on the left gave me goose bumps a couple of times when Marni hit certain notes. (that's a good thing). The one on the right sounded like a Disney cartoon musical. .. perfection isn't always perfect.
Interesting explanation of why one of the problems with autotune is placing the notes out of the instrumental context. I use Melodyne, sparingly, while listening to the backing tracks, and when I shift a pitch it is rarely to the exact note. I move the pitch to where it sounds best to me (and I don't move it at all if it already sounds fine). That said, the tuning on this particular track seems unusually aggressive. I often don't notice autotune on recordings, even when it is pointed out by someone how obvious it is. But despite my poorly developed ears, I heard the autotune here immediately.
In my opinion, this nonsense processing is one of the thing entertainment industries do these days that lower overall quality of music. Thank you Fil for such a great analysis, you are a great musician.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should . What a shame to mess with these vocals, but like everything in life this too will pass......just not soon enough for some of us. Your videos are always brilliant . So interesting and informative, Thank you!
Another excellent instructional video! I didn’t realize until recently (after watching your videos about auto tune) why I stopped enjoying some of the modern music I initially liked. After a few listens, it didn’t move me anymore and I lost interest. I think what I was unknowingly experiencing was a recognition that said music was ‘soulless’ due to auto tuning. And as you said, that probably plays a large part in my preferring older music. I’m older, true, but always open to discovering new music. Auto tuning is deceptive and arrogant IMO. I’ve become pretty skeptical of the music industry’s understanding of what makes good music. Love your videos!
Thanks for this I found it fascinating. The really nefarious part of this is that an entire generation of young listeners and musicians are learning to hear this as normal and consequently when they do hear "real" music it sounds wrong to them and when they make music they try to emulate it. People may not be able to hear the difference in an a/b comparison, but I think in the long run it does make a difference even if most people are not able to discern the whys or ways of it. Music produced in this fashion is simply less interesting. It has less individuality and personality. Over time it becomes dull and the music becomes disposable.
Great analysis again, Fil. I wonder why producers use these tools. To save time and money or just laziness. I guess we're stuck with auto tune and pitch correction forever. 🙄
Excellent explanation of the "full body of sound" by your showing how the "skinny " sound of auto tune measures up -- literally. 😁👍 Soundtracks of A.I. vocals.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for staying on this topic. I am of the older generation (71), I still work out, and when I hear current music over the speakers at the gym, I want to barf because EVERY SINGER SOUNDS ALIKE (sorry for the caps, but I wanted to emphasize the point). It is just terrible, and in conjunction with so musch electronic instrumentation, a total turn off. Perhaps the real tragedy is going to be a generation coming up listening to this tweaked singing and not knowing that it is t weaked. It's just not genuine.
Fil, Thank you for these videos. I've been watching you & your videos for a long time & you cover everything so well. Every genre, & every era. Thank you. You are truly a professional. (And I was a teen in the 1970's & young adult in the early 1980's & went to many concerts.....You would've fit in musically then & you would've been at home then & there. God bless you!
“I think personally you should try and have a vocal of a song that appeal to everybody rather than just appeals to people who can’t hear.” I thought that line was hilarious and so true! Producers/techs, who couldn’t carry a note in a bucket, are taking perfectly fine music and turning it into Frankensteinish ‘music’ to appeal to people who couldn’t tell the difference between a note and a boat. I LOVE all your analyses of performances! You’re always spot on, and unlike the music you talk about, you aren’t autotuned! Keep up the fantastic work Fil!!!
Thank goodness they had Marni Nixon dub for Natalie. I've seen videos of her singing the West Side Story songs and although her voice wasn't bad she was not a trained vocalist like Marni Nixon. I believe it would have really hurt this amazing movie and would not have been as acclaimed as it was.
Marnie Nixon's voice was miraculous. We saw WSS in the theaters and listened to the original album on the stereo a lot when I was a kid. The songs were so beautiful. For all the reasons you gave, the horrible auto tuning in the 2021 version is corpse like compared to the incredible voice of Marnie Nixon.
Wow…just wow ! Until you showed the lines and the hums, I would’ve missed it. To be honest I’m not much into musicals even though I work in live theater lol !! This was really ear opening. I enjoyed this immensely. Marnie Nixon was the sh*t back in the day. Great analysis Fil. xx❤
People have mentioned the great Marnie Nixon singing for Natalie Wood; Jimmy Bryant is singing for Richard Beymer. I didn't see any mention of that. Now I would love to see a comparison of Carol Lawrance and Larry Kert with Nixon and Bryant.
Great vid, & fascinating to hear you explain how auto-tuned notes sound to you - “an extra harmonic” I think you said. It’s such a weird sound - to me it sounds a bit like the voice is played through a synthesizer - that I appreciate your thoughts to help me better understand *why* it sounds so horrible.
Thank you for the illuminating analysis. I can’t believe that anyone would mess with the original West Side Story recording. (It won a Grammy, after all!) I wonder what Leonard Bernstein would say!
Fil, you're right, the singers voices are more than good, they should just leave them alone. It takes all the natural beauty out of it. Thankyou for showing us why everyone starts sounding the same!👍🌊💙💙💙🌊🥰✌
Fil, excellent review and analysis!! For me this brought to mind: a) the sometimes stark difference between digitally processed sound as compared to its analog origin and, perhaps more importantly, b) just because you can do something (like auto-tuning) doesn't mean you should. Agree that listeners to these 'perfected' products are, in effect, not being being allowed the joy of hearing the natural human voice with all its wonderfully rich imperfections.
On the subject of singing and pitch, saw a UA-cam video that suggest singing along to the the backing track coming out of monitors rather than headphones because as well as the performance being more natural, it’s more in tune. This worked for me. So now rather than singing along through a big condenser and listening to headphones, I’m using an SM57 and turning the monitors up. It does sound more in tune, and more in the pocket too. So there’s no need to try and ‘fix’ things afterwards anyway.
I like the way you describe this, and from singing with an orchestra in theater as well as in the studio, it's pretty much the thinking process. Also, depending on the singer's style, to change up a song, they may sing behind a note, if you follow me. I did that on my demo and it got me signed. I backed my own vocals, where again you're trying to blend, and then did alto against my own soprano track. So, you're right. Singing with an orchestra, and knowing the exact second to come in, especially when you have a player whose time is off, lol, and so you have to make it sound like it's a deliberate style choice., lol. I remember that night lol. I was singing behind the note, almost like scat, so it wouldn't sound awful. 🤣
Thank you Fil. For the first time with this analysis I can hear what you're talking about. I have no musical education at all, and I really appreciate your wonderful analyses. I'm really glad I can hear it now, even though it sounds terrible.
Don't know if this makes sense but the 2021 sounds squashed. I am not moved by this version. The 1961 version is so beautiful I have viseral reactions. Thanks for this presentation it explains so much.
Couple things- Today, they want to "prove" they're so much better than "the past", and, those creating shows, movies etc., what to be able to PLUG-IN, they type & skin color, of who they wish. I'm just telling y'all I KNOW this is fact. They no longer are creating shows, movies etc., based on the very best they have, the most talented- in other words, to those who put in the work, effort, & heart, or, "based on merit"- these no longer matter. Forcing their narrative, is all that matters to them. Only WE can force them to stop.
@@guystudios They hire based on race, "protected status", how, "oppressed" they feel a group of people have been, instead of on Merit, Skill, Ability, etc... ... In order to drive their narratives. didn't think it was that hard to understand. This is a formula for absolute failure. Whoever's the BEST, for whatever's being applied for, should be the ONLY Factor that matters.
@@rickrickard2788 Well of course they’d cast West Side Story based on race. The Sharks are all Puerto Rican, so naturally they’d hire Latin American actors to play those parts.
Loved the side-by-side graphics, it made it easy to understand the differences. Some auto tune is so obvious, but I did not pick up on it in the theater last year.
I've never seen you do a better video. It is as good as the one on David Cassidy, and thats saying something! You have strong feeling about this, you are loving doing this video, and it SHOWS. I really enjoyed this and understand about autotune and pitch correction even more than I did from your previous videos. Thank you so much Fil dear! I will loan you my hair dryer any time!
When looked at through the lens of the original 1961 film, the modern remake's vocals sound flat (not in the sense of the notes), bland, nearly lifeless. I believe that it's the pitch correction that has sucked the life out of the song. Frankly, this classic film should not have been remade in the first place. Unfortunately this remake is just one dismal example of an all too common practice in the quest for filthy lucre.
This was such fabulous analysis. You are so amazing, I am just becoming addicted to your videos. Finally a positive addiction for all of us. I just don't get this technological manipulation when there are so many true vocalists who can actually sing. Seems counter productive to the point of Music, which is to reach us at a gut level. 😩
How long before the technology leads them to dispense with the human singer altogether and just generate all the music by computer? I'm one of the older music fans who has been complaining for years that all the newer music sounds the same to me. But I could never have articulated why that is as eloquently as you have done. Thanks for your analysis, Fil.
Do note that it is indeed Marni Nixon doing Natalie Wood's voice. Marni also dubbed Deborah Kerr's voice in The King and I and most (not all) of Audrey Hepburn's vocals in My Fair Lady.
Recently an unsliced up movie theater screened the original WST 70 mm print with its analog sound system. From the minute the orchestra began the overture, as the abstract graphics faded into tenements, I could only think, this experience can’t be duplicated; certainly not today.. And then they stick the world with a horrible, unforgettable remake.
I don't understand much about autotune and pitch correction, but what I have seen and heard about it, I personally don't like it. I'd rather hear songs sung with the vocalists natural voices, flaws and all. That's what makes them unique in my opinion. It was a great analysis, Fil! I enjoyed it! 😉👍🏻
I learn so much from Fil's videos. He has great delivery and massive knowledge. Even though I don't understand music jargon, I can follow what he is explaining. I love when he said, regarding the 2021version, "you are listening to the producer, not the singer." What a shame that they put "managers" in charge of post production instead of artists. I wonder why these people in the music business think auto-tuned recordings are more desirable than authentic voices.
I’m 72. I do not have an exceptional ear for pitch. But I did listen to the original West Side Story many times over the years. I could tell in the first couple of seconds of the auto tune that something was off. Wince.
I really enjoy watching your content. It very informative and fascinating, having said that is saddens me that they (the powers that be) have to do this to the singer, tragic really). Keep up the great work. Cheers
All this music, these chants, should not be allowed (if corrected) to compete in the "Olympics" anymore. They would have to compete in the "Paralympics" because they use "prostheses", carbon fiber legs ... What is really bad is that young people who are just beginning to develop their hearing abilities can fall into the misconception that "corrected" is correct. Thank you Fil for your efforts to counteract this.
As a GenX'r, you have validated my misery in a way, I never felt was possible. And this is a random YT algorithm suggestion. Now, that I am more aware of wtf is going on, I'm less frustrated. 💌
Phil I’m not sure if you ever did one or if you would even consider one but I would love to see how the results are come out on Tiny Tim Tip toe through the tulips I know I know I understand I get it but as long as I’ve been watching you show because you’re awesome and you brought many things to my attention into the light and it’s not often do appreciate it personal i do even take the time to do it but it’s worth the time in my opinion. I think Tiny Tim is Tiny Tim may be an interesting to consider thank you.
More great content Fil and I understand your frustration and share it. I have a pair of JBL 175 watt reference monitors and a KEF 250 watt bass bin and hear clearly the muted notes and dynamics created in auto tuned content.
Leonard Bernstein was a genius. West Side Story is far from the typical broadway musical. It has a ring of Gershwin and even classical composers like Saint-Saens. The music and lyrics are real, poignant, and utterly original. Such beauty for everyone to taste!
Showed this to my 84 yr old mother and she said “ the original is real music! This new crap has ruined true talented singers.
She' so right!
It was being discussed on the car radio today and the reviewers (they were asking about favourite musicals) and the new one was universally paaned ecause of the sound and the vocals.
Yes, there's no incentive now to want to sing well, to be an artist. It's bastardized by the bean-counting executives again who'll just pay a gadget nerd to make everyone sound the same no matter their talent level, artistic soul, or lack thereof. Why respect someone who practices to develop their voice when all that's needed is to take any karaoke clown off the street and auto tune them? It's ruining the industry.
What talented singers? I seriously doubt they were that talented or they wouldn't have spent the money to autotune them. Reminds me of those Disney remakes of animated movies with live action like that Emma Watson that couldn't sing out of a paper bag so they autotuned the hell out of her.
@duckmyass Zegler can sing live, definitely. I've heard her in interviews just sing out of nowhere and it was beautiful, pitch perfect and clear.
Thank you for explaining why, as an old musical lover, why I just cannot seem to enjoy newer versions of the music of the past. I could not understand why there was something missing, something just not right. Now I understand. This particular original musical gave us so many great tunes to play in our heads over and over again. I tried to watch the new version and got 10 minutes in before I quit. There was just something not right with it. You answered that.
Also the movie was changed from the '61 version.
I feel the same way and can tell immediately when something's been auto-tuned, whether on radio or youtube. I can't listen to new music anymore. Interestingly, a guy who commented on another of Fils' videos said he liked it and that anyone can sound great with it, thinks it's really cool, then told me to "get off my high horse" for saying it doesn't sound good to my ear. It's unfortunate for him that he's been spoon fed this new stuff and won't eat anything else.
Same here. it was painful to listen to.
Thanks so much for proving through objective technology how the misuse of technology is ruining the music of today.
Everyone here who has mentioned Marni Nixon - did you know she was actually ON SCREEN as one of the nuns in The Sound of Music? She sang on screen with her own voice as Sister Sophia in the song "Maria"! As a child, I found that fascinating and thought others might as well.
I actually did know this, fun piece of backstory.
AutoPitch Correction Software 101- thank you Fil for showing the ugly of natural voice manipulation and helping us develop the ear to hear the technical manipulation. “We are not getting to hear the singer’s natural voice.” This is not a critical response of the performers but the industry’s manipulation of vocals. Ugh. Keep doing your analyses Fil. Rock!
I am in my late 60's and for the past year or more, I have been viewing reaction videos of people worldwide in their 40's or younger, reacting to performers/groups of the 1950's through to 1980's, whether a live performance or in a TV studio on a live TV show, and they are blown away, amazed at how good their voices and harmonies are without auto tune or pitch software or any other software manipulation. Yes, they dubbed voices in the recording studios over voices, but did not change the actual voice, only placed it in where they wanted it to be. Your analysis of these 2 film versions of West Side Story confirms my opinion of today's music, that it misses character and expression within the voice when listened to on the radio. I'm sure it would be a different sound in a live performance.
not necessarily - in fact, unlikely - they're using the tech even in "live" performances, too! 😡
If you want to see some REALLY great reactions, watch the young people between 25-40 listening "blindfolded" so to speak, of LIVE performances of The Carpenters. Many are very shocked that The Carpenters were so young, &vso rich sounding & WHITE! But they LOVE them! And they LOVE Karen Carpenter's rich deep vocal range. These times produced REAL singers. And there are not many new up & coming, TRUE singers around today. (Watch Jamel/Jamal's reaction to The Carpenters. It nearly brought him to tears.)
@@justlivinglife....619check out Angelina Jordan
I love all the little details you point out in your analysis Fil 👍 It's a shame that technology in the recording industry has taken away the pure joys of hearing natural human vocal tones. 🎶🎼🎵
I agree Drew! ✌️💙🌻
@@cindypowers4993 Hello my friend 🤗✌🧡
To quote you Fil, "if it sounds great, leave it"... truer words have never been spoken.
Cindy Powers 👍 😊
@@drewpall2598 Hello Drew!!🤗
That's Marni Nixon, not Natalie Wood. Marni Nixon made a career overdubbing singing parts for major Hollywood stars in musicals.
Marni Nixon RIP
I don't recall anyone saying it was Natalie Woods' singing voice that ended up on the film, though it was she who was originally recorded. It's well reported that it was Marnis' vocal over dubbing Natalie in the film, which was done before release. Many people are making that point but I don't think it needed to be made. Who said the vocals on the film were Natalies'?
@@albertschepis No one said that it was Natalie Wood, but the video itself is tagged on the bottom (no why of knowing by whom) "Natalie Wood's vocal in 1961." I think that's what people are referring to.
The 1961 music makes me weep, the 2021 also makes me weep, for a different reason.
S. Speilberg decided that a politically correct WSS was a good idea. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it is one of the biggest box office bombs in recent history.
I mean in terms of film quality, I think the 2021 version is far superior, but I can understand if you prefer your leads dubbed rather than autotuned!
one thing i enjoy about your videos is the diversity of genres you delve into - you aren't just all about "rock", as you simply appreciate talent and skill, whatever the source. keep up the great work, fil, thank you!
Me too
Yes, Fil's range of appreciation is massive.
I was 13 years old when this movie came out, and went to the movies and saw it and I was amazed at the story, the acting in the music. Thanks for reacting to an iconic film and music
I was a few years too young to see it in the theater when it opened, but I saw it on TV and listened to the song track on 8 track tape cassette for years as a teenager.
The original vocal sounds so much nicer to my ear. Interesting point you made about many of us not enjoying/appreciating modern music because much of it all sounds exactly the same. I have said this & now I understand why. Thank you
I'm not a singer but I think, if I was, I would want to scream, "How dare you do this to my voice and my interpretation!?" It's like someone taking a painting from an artist and tidying up the lines, changing the colours to an agreed standard pallette, sanding out any texture etc before exhibiting it because they consider they can improve on their work. The singer is an artist too.
Perfect analogy. Unfortunately, even artists who have perfect pitch will choose to use auto tune these days if for no reason than just as an effect. Rick Beato has a video where he talks about this. Younger artists have had their ears trained to this crap and actually favor the mechanized perfection over character, as you say. It’s why so much new music sounds soulless and unable to convey real emotion to us older people who didn’t have our ears trained or ruined rather by hearing nothing but constant perfection.
But, for me, I think what they're doing is taking a lot of singers who really *aren't* very talented, but maybe have some other quality they can sell, and making them sound "good." Maybe they're attractive, or maybe they're more easily manipulated, or maybe they're somebody's neice or grandson, or maybe they fit a certain demographic, or gawd-knows-what other reason. And, I suspect so many younger people who woud otherwise remain unknown are not only perfectly willing, but thrilled to go along with it so they can get rich and famous. (Because I doubt very much that any truly talented and serious artist would allow him/herself to be manipulated like that for money.) And, for me, that's unforgiveable. It is destructive to the art of music and to singing. And that's why anyone over 45 or 50 probably thinks today's "music" is mostly crap. But, hey, somebody's making money!!
@@Boethius411 I agree. Perfect analogy.
@@carolinej3661 yeah, Hollywood has been prettying up mediocre talent since way before pro tools were a thing. At least you could rationalize that there were actually talented human beings backing them up back in the day though. lol
I heard it as soon as it started playing…on my iPhone’s speaker, with the television up…
I envy those that can’t hear it.
Natalie Wood didn't sing on this, it was dubbed by actress Marni Nixon, just FYI, nice to see an appreciation of this incredible music 😀
Before I saw ur comment I wrote the same thing lol
Thanks for posting this. Did you ever listen to the Carol Lawrence Broadway stage recording of West Side Story? Very expressive & full body voice. Wasn't Rita Moreno in all 3 versions?
@@tonyallen1019 She was a wonderful performer!
@@tonyallen1019 I was going to write the same comment about Carol Lawrence as well as Larry Kert who played the first Tony on Broadway. Fabulous voices.
Marni Nixon also sang for Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady
Fil...you really nailed why older people can't get into most current singers. Pitch correction etc, sucks the life out of a vocal. FYI...as mentioned Marni Nixon not only dubbed Natalie Wood, she dubbed Deborah Kerr in The King and I and Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady. She was married to film composer Elmer Bernstein. Her son was Andrew Gold, Thank You For Being A Friend ( Golden Girls) and several other songs.
She was married to Ernest Gold, not Elmer Bernstein.
Saw the original aged 12 (fell forever in love with Natalie Wood, even if she didn't do her own singing), and it's still, for me, the best musical Hollywood ever produced. It did Not. Need. A. Remake.
That said, I can't hear a vocal and say "that's pitch corrected" -- I don't have the trained ear for that -- but I do listen to the new one and think, "Why does that sound sort of lifeless?" So, this analysis has been really valuable for me.Thanks!
Just a point of correction… She actually did sing… They just dubbed over her voice with somebody better trained. Marnie Nixon.
@@Rosannasfriend Well yes, but for the purposes of the film and its audience, she didn't sing. That's all I meant.
Great presentation Fil! 1961 is a fabulous part of an absolutely gorgeous score. 2021 is simply painful to listen to. Almost like going from the "beauty" to the "beast"!
Beautiful breakdown, as usual. The idea of voices needing to work in context with the instrumental backing is something so many people don't even grasp. (Also, within the last month I've heard both Brenden Ure and Florence Welch in concert, and they sounded just as amazing on stage as they do recorded. This practice has become so popular because, sadly, there are so many untalented singers in the spotlight these days.)
Rant justified, and accepted! What scares me is the thought that eventually producers & engineers will put in slight offsets and pitch variations, after modifying the voice to the pitch they deem correct. Ugh!
Fil if you haven't yet seen the 1961 movie version of West Side Story, I recommend that you do within your lifetime. 😊
That was so amazing!! You are so good at your analyses. I love that you did something so different - a musical.!! You have an appreciation for all types of music and voices. You rock, Fil.
Marni Nixon dubbed the lead not only here but many others, such as My Fair Lady and The King and I. Her contract stipulated that she never reveal it, but Deborah Kerr (The King and I) spilled the beans and Marni Nixon's other dubs eventually became known.
After hearing this, it would would be interesting to analyze Marni in these other movies to see if her pitch accuracy was sometimes better, because her whole goal was to mimic the expression of the lead actress. Deborah Kerr described how Marni would stand next to her, and listen to her singing and accent, while watching her facial expression in order to get the dub as close as possible to represent a stronger version of Kerr's voice.
The original West Side Story blew me away, so much so that l went 14 times to see it. It remains my favourite musical of all time. Thanks for the rundown here on modern musical tweaking
West Side Story is one of my favorite musicals including the choreography. I still enjoy watching it and believe Natalie's vocals were dubbed. I have not seen the remake but great analysis pointing out the differences on the pitch monitor.
If you want to feel better about some vocals, check out Gary Puckett performing Young Girl.
He did an analysis of Gary Puckett about 2 years ago. Just type british guitarist gary puckett in the search bar.
@@aprils6589 Thanks.
I still have and occasionally watch and listen to WSS (1) ever since I saw it with my parents in '61. It's absolutely brilliant. Can't say the same about the modern version. And as I suspected, it is autotuned. Ugh! - Where have all the real songs gone? (Long time passing.) When will they ever learn?
Your point about the inaccuracy of the orchestra, compared to the striation of the vocal, is bang on, very well put. I'm going to steal that one!
Thank you for this. I studied with Marni Nixon, who sang Maria in the 1961 version. She was an absolute master - and the difference when I watched the 2021 version, I felt that voices were lovely but were lacking "warmth". Now I know why.
You know something has gone horribly wrong. LOL. I grew up with the song Maria. People would sing my name. I wanted to change my name. Lol. A human voice can't be straight on the line. Just not possible. I love these analyses. I learn so much about music and songs.
thank you for the comparison. ok, for me, the one on the left gave me goose bumps a couple of times when Marni hit certain notes. (that's a good thing). The one on the right sounded like a Disney cartoon musical. .. perfection isn't always perfect.
Interesting explanation of why one of the problems with autotune is placing the notes out of the instrumental context. I use Melodyne, sparingly, while listening to the backing tracks, and when I shift a pitch it is rarely to the exact note. I move the pitch to where it sounds best to me (and I don't move it at all if it already sounds fine). That said, the tuning on this particular track seems unusually aggressive. I often don't notice autotune on recordings, even when it is pointed out by someone how obvious it is. But despite my poorly developed ears, I heard the autotune here immediately.
In my opinion, this nonsense processing is one of the thing entertainment industries do these days that lower overall quality of music. Thank you Fil for such a great analysis, you are a great musician.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should . What a shame to mess with these vocals, but like everything in life this too will pass......just not soon enough for some of us. Your videos are always brilliant . So interesting and informative, Thank you!
Thanks, Fil. Those of us who don't hear what you hear find this VERY interesting!
Thanks Fil, another great analysis. Keep up the good work - one of the most entertaining youtube channels for sure.
You cover the best videos Fil!!!
Another excellent instructional video! I didn’t realize until recently (after watching your videos about auto tune) why I stopped enjoying some of the modern music I initially liked. After a few listens, it didn’t move me anymore and I lost interest. I think what I was unknowingly experiencing was a recognition that said music was ‘soulless’ due to auto tuning. And as you said, that probably plays a large part in my preferring older music. I’m older, true, but always open to discovering new music. Auto tuning is deceptive and arrogant IMO. I’ve become pretty skeptical of the music industry’s understanding of what makes good music. Love your videos!
I just love how happy good music makes you! Thanks for sharing your expertise!
Natural singing/natural playing of instruments = richness and authenticity…..
West Side Story was my Senior Class Play in high school back in 1970! I played a Shark Girl!!! MEMORIES!!!!!
Thanks for this I found it fascinating. The really nefarious part of this is that an entire generation of young listeners and musicians are learning to hear this as normal and consequently when they do hear "real" music it sounds wrong to them and when they make music they try to emulate it.
People may not be able to hear the difference in an a/b comparison, but I think in the long run it does make a difference even if most people are not able to discern the whys or ways of it. Music produced in this fashion is simply less interesting. It has less individuality and personality. Over time it becomes dull and the music becomes disposable.
In my opinion Fil is bloody brilliant, the Einstein of electronic ear engineering, notice my bloody brilliant aliteration!
Great analysis again, Fil. I wonder why producers use these tools.
To save time and money or just laziness.
I guess we're stuck with auto tune and pitch correction forever. 🙄
Excellent explanation of the "full body of sound" by your showing how the "skinny " sound of auto tune measures up -- literally.
😁👍 Soundtracks of A.I. vocals.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for staying on this topic. I am of the older generation (71), I still work out, and when I hear current music over the speakers at the gym, I want to barf because EVERY SINGER SOUNDS ALIKE (sorry for the caps, but I wanted to emphasize the point). It is just terrible, and in conjunction with so musch electronic instrumentation, a total turn off. Perhaps the real tragedy is going to be a generation coming up listening to this tweaked singing and not knowing that it is t weaked. It's just not genuine.
Fil,
Thank you for these videos. I've been watching you & your videos for a long time & you cover everything so well. Every genre, & every era. Thank you. You are truly a professional. (And I was a teen in the 1970's & young adult in the early 1980's & went to many concerts.....You would've fit in musically then & you would've been at home then & there. God bless you!
“I think personally you should try and have a vocal of a song that appeal to everybody rather than just appeals to people who can’t hear.”
I thought that line was hilarious and so true! Producers/techs, who couldn’t carry a note in a bucket, are taking perfectly fine music and turning it into Frankensteinish ‘music’ to appeal to people who couldn’t tell the difference between a note and a boat.
I LOVE all your analyses of performances! You’re always spot on, and unlike the music you talk about, you aren’t autotuned!
Keep up the fantastic work Fil!!!
Great video, as always. Quick note. Natalie Wood was incredibly disappointed that her vocals weren’t used, and that she was dubbed by Marni Nixon.
Thank goodness they had Marni Nixon dub for Natalie. I've seen videos of her singing the West Side Story songs and although her voice wasn't bad she was not a trained vocalist like Marni Nixon. I believe it would have really hurt this amazing movie and would not have been as acclaimed as it was.
Natalie singing Let Me Entertain You in Gypsy makes one's ears bleed.
@@beverlyjohnson3025 Hahaha. Agreed!
Marnie Nixon's voice was miraculous. We saw WSS in the theaters and listened to the original album on the stereo a lot when I was a kid. The songs were so beautiful. For all the reasons you gave, the horrible auto tuning in the 2021 version is corpse like compared to the incredible voice of Marnie Nixon.
Wow…just wow !
Until you showed the lines and the hums, I would’ve missed it. To be honest I’m not much into musicals even though I work in live theater lol !! This was really ear opening. I enjoyed this immensely. Marnie Nixon was the sh*t back in the day.
Great analysis Fil. xx❤
People have mentioned the great Marnie Nixon singing for Natalie Wood; Jimmy Bryant is singing for Richard Beymer. I didn't see any mention of that. Now I would love to see a comparison of Carol Lawrance and Larry Kert with Nixon and Bryant.
My favourite song is Somewhere but my favourite scene is “Cool”. Now that is a dance number.
Thanks for doing this music. I am not a fan of musicals but love how you take them apart.
hi Fil I loved West Side Story but I saw the original I never have seen the new one. My cousin saw it & loved it. TY for the analysis, 👍
Fil your analyzes always amaze me! Superb job again.:-) And honestly you should be well above half a million Subs by now approaching a million.
Great vid, & fascinating to hear you explain how auto-tuned notes sound to you - “an extra harmonic” I think you said. It’s such a weird sound - to me it sounds a bit like the voice is played through a synthesizer - that I appreciate your thoughts to help me better understand *why* it sounds so horrible.
This explains why I found the songs so lifeless. I much prefer the original, and now I know why the voices sounded devoid of humanity.
Brillant man thank you
Thank you for the illuminating analysis. I can’t believe that anyone would mess with the original West Side Story recording. (It won a Grammy, after all!) I wonder what Leonard Bernstein would say!
Hey Fil, we should really give credit to Marni Nixon whose voice we heard in the 1961 version
Great explanation of microtones Fil. Thank you so much❤
Wow, this is eye opening. Great video.
I much prefer the natural voice. Any manipulation is garbage in my book.
What an interesting description of the violins and finger placement....👍
Fil, you're right, the singers voices are more than good, they should just leave them alone. It takes all the natural beauty out of it. Thankyou for showing us why everyone starts sounding the same!👍🌊💙💙💙🌊🥰✌
Actually never saw the movie but great explanation of the differences. Thanks Fil😊🎇🎙🎼🎤💃
Fil, excellent review and analysis!! For me this brought to mind: a) the sometimes stark difference between digitally processed sound as compared to its analog origin and, perhaps more importantly, b) just because you can do something (like auto-tuning) doesn't mean you should. Agree that listeners to these 'perfected' products are, in effect, not being being allowed the joy of hearing the natural human voice with all its wonderfully rich imperfections.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO
Wow, Phil you analyze many things very accurately.
On the subject of singing and pitch, saw a UA-cam video that suggest singing along to the the backing track coming out of monitors rather than headphones because as well as the performance being more natural, it’s more in tune.
This worked for me. So now rather than singing along through a big condenser and listening to headphones, I’m using an SM57 and turning the monitors up. It does sound more in tune, and more in the pocket too.
So there’s no need to try and ‘fix’ things afterwards anyway.
Oh yeah, give me OLD SCHOOL! Amazing difference. Thanks Fil!
I like the way you describe this, and from singing with an orchestra in theater as well as in the studio, it's pretty much the thinking process. Also, depending on the singer's style, to change up a song, they may sing behind a note, if you follow me. I did that on my demo and it got me signed. I backed my own vocals, where again you're trying to blend, and then did alto against my own soprano track. So, you're right. Singing with an orchestra, and knowing the exact second to come in, especially when you have a player whose time is off, lol, and so you have to make it sound like it's a deliberate style choice., lol. I remember that night lol. I was singing behind the note, almost like scat, so it wouldn't sound awful. 🤣
Like you Fil I can hear it straight away !😎🎼ha ha
Thank you Fil. For the first time with this analysis I can hear what you're talking about. I have no musical education at all, and I really appreciate your wonderful analyses. I'm really glad I can hear it now, even though it sounds terrible.
Don't know if this makes sense but the 2021 sounds squashed. I am not moved by this version. The 1961 version is so beautiful I have viseral reactions. Thanks for this presentation it explains so much.
Couple things- Today, they want to "prove" they're so much better than "the past", and, those creating shows, movies etc., what to be able to PLUG-IN, they type & skin color, of who they wish. I'm just telling y'all I KNOW this is fact.
They no longer are creating shows, movies etc., based on the very best they have, the most talented- in other words, to those who put in the work, effort, & heart, or, "based on merit"- these no longer matter.
Forcing their narrative, is all that matters to them.
Only WE can force them to stop.
I have NO idea what you’re trying to say
@@guystudios Must not be paying attention to what's going on around you and in the industry today.
Or, you agree with it- Your choice.
@@rickrickard2788 I can’t agree, nor disagree with something that’s worded in such an obfuscated and cryptic manner.
@@guystudios They hire based on race, "protected status", how, "oppressed" they feel a group of people have been, instead of on Merit, Skill, Ability, etc...
... In order to drive their narratives. didn't think it was that hard to understand.
This is a formula for absolute failure.
Whoever's the BEST, for whatever's being applied for, should be the ONLY Factor that matters.
@@rickrickard2788 Well of course they’d cast West Side Story based on race. The Sharks are all Puerto Rican, so naturally they’d hire Latin American actors to play those parts.
Loved the side-by-side graphics, it made it easy to understand the differences. Some auto tune is so obvious, but I did not pick up on it in the theater last year.
I've never seen you do a better video. It is as good as the one on David Cassidy, and thats saying something! You have strong feeling about this, you are loving doing this video, and it SHOWS. I really enjoyed this and understand about autotune and pitch correction even more than I did from your previous videos. Thank you so much Fil dear! I will loan you my hair dryer any time!
Thanks Fil. It's pretty sad actually.
When looked at through the lens of the original 1961 film, the modern remake's vocals sound flat (not in the sense of the notes), bland, nearly lifeless. I believe that it's the pitch correction that has sucked the life out of the song. Frankly, this classic film should not have been remade in the first place. Unfortunately this remake is just one dismal example of an all too common practice in the quest for filthy lucre.
Marni Nixon was the autotune of her day. “I think those vocals have been Marnied,” people used to say.
This was such fabulous analysis. You are so amazing, I am just becoming addicted to your videos. Finally a positive addiction for all of us. I just don't get this technological manipulation when there are so many true vocalists who can actually sing. Seems counter productive to the point of Music, which is to reach us at a gut level. 😩
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is the only reason
The 1961 version won ten Oscars. It’s my favorite movie. I have a huge bias toward the original film.
How long before the technology leads them to dispense with the human singer altogether and just generate all the music by computer? I'm one of the older music fans who has been complaining for years that all the newer music sounds the same to me. But I could never have articulated why that is as eloquently as you have done. Thanks for your analysis, Fil.
@@Spo-Dee-O-Dee Then they should be billed as actors or dancers, not singers. I'm not interested in autographs from pretenders.
@@Spo-Dee-O-Dee The industry can do what it likes. My money will go to artists who actually sing.
Do note that it is indeed Marni Nixon doing Natalie Wood's voice. Marni also dubbed Deborah Kerr's voice in The King and I and most (not all) of Audrey Hepburn's vocals in My Fair Lady.
Recently an unsliced up movie theater screened the original WST 70 mm print with its analog sound system. From the minute the orchestra began the overture, as the abstract graphics faded into tenements, I could only think, this experience can’t be duplicated; certainly not today.. And then they stick the world with a horrible, unforgettable remake.
I don't understand much about autotune and pitch correction, but what I have seen and heard about it, I personally don't like it. I'd rather hear songs sung with the vocalists natural voices, flaws and all. That's what makes them unique in my opinion. It was a great analysis, Fil! I enjoyed it! 😉👍🏻
I learn so much from Fil's videos. He has great delivery and massive knowledge. Even though I don't understand music jargon, I can follow what he is explaining. I love when he said, regarding the 2021version, "you are listening to the producer, not the singer." What a shame that they put "managers" in charge of post production instead of artists. I wonder why these people in the music business think auto-tuned recordings are more desirable than authentic voices.
I’m 72. I do not have an exceptional ear for pitch. But I did listen to the original West Side Story many times over the years. I could tell in the first couple of seconds of the auto tune that something was off. Wince.
I really enjoy watching your content. It very informative and fascinating, having said that is saddens me that they (the powers that be) have to do this to the singer, tragic really). Keep up the great work. Cheers
I couldn't hear it in the movie but I hear it now
Appreciate the knowledge you share with us. Thanks!
I’m 57, didn’t grow up with auto tune, always obvious to me when I hear it.
Listening to pitch-corrected vocals is like drinking decaffeinated coffee.
Funny comment Brian SD
@@charlesmcgehee3227 Thanks. They both lack rich flavor.
Decaffeinated, unsweetened, luke warm instant from a machine...
All this music, these chants, should not be allowed (if corrected) to compete in the "Olympics" anymore. They would have to compete in the "Paralympics" because they use "prostheses", carbon fiber legs ...
What is really bad is that young people who are just beginning to develop their hearing abilities can fall into the misconception that "corrected" is correct.
Thank you Fil for your efforts to counteract this.
As a GenX'r, you have validated my misery in a way, I never felt was possible. And this is a random YT algorithm suggestion. Now, that I am more aware of wtf is going on, I'm less frustrated. 💌
Phil I’m not sure if you ever did one or if you would even consider one but I would love to see how the results are come out on Tiny Tim Tip toe through the tulips I know I know I understand I get it but as long as I’ve been watching you show because you’re awesome and you brought many things to my attention into the light and it’s not often do appreciate it personal i do even take the time to do it but it’s worth the time in my opinion.
I think Tiny Tim is Tiny Tim may be an interesting to consider thank you.
You know when you try to give your pup a haircut with scissors and they end looking like a staircase? That's how autotune sounds to me.
More great content Fil and I understand your frustration and share it. I have a pair of JBL 175 watt reference monitors and a KEF 250 watt bass bin and hear clearly the muted notes and dynamics created in auto tuned content.
Leonard Bernstein was a genius. West Side Story is far from the typical broadway musical. It has a ring of Gershwin and even classical composers like Saint-Saens. The music and lyrics are real, poignant, and utterly original. Such beauty for everyone to taste!
It doesn't sound like Gershwin at all. It sounds uniquely like Bernstein.
Some of the most beautiful music ever written along with Richard Rodgers and Gershwin