Good points. I personally don't care enough to try to figure out who is involved. Until I feel they are actually a threat to our system of government, I tend to ignore them.
I'm really disappointed that you didn't give the free speech argument. JSM argued that free speech didn't only mean freedom from persecution of the government, but he also argued that social repercussions have a chilling effect on speech and it too causes people not to say what they think. If we're really concerned about having justified and true belief, then we wouldn't want to lose the arguments against that which we've already decided as wrong. It doesn't matter if bad ideas are oppressed from the government or social shaming, it has the same effect of taking those bad ideas out of the public consequence and has the same risk of us losing the justification for the contra position of those bad ideas.
I think only a court of law should have the right to name and shame, thus defusing the second of your "against" arguments and both "pro" ones. The other two against arguments still stand, however.
Marcomanseckisax I'd think it would be impossible to legally ban that water cooler talk, but that water cooler talk would be an example of a private citizen, as opposed to a court, naming and shaming someone they know.
I don't think a court ought to have the power to shame. Its my opinion that stocks (and other such punishments) are a form of cruel and unusual punishment. Sure, there is shame that comes along with a criminal conviction, but that's because you humiliated by doing something bad itself. If the latter is what you meant, then I agree. I just wanted to object to the idea that the courts should distribute additional shame other than that shame that would follow a man for committing injustice.
The last argument against is the first I thought of. I think it'll lead to more extreme views rather than reversing them. I don't see any lasting benefit. And yes there's the threats, violent retaliation (some we've already seen). I'm concerned about where this might lead.
I think there may be an argument to be made that the societal benefit of public shaming may outweigh the cons. If, for example, it's true that the public shaming was responsible for the utterly terrible turnout of the second annual Nazi rally that it was worth it because it prevented the movement from growing, effectively 'smashing the nucleus of their movement' without physical violence. If no one was shamed, and no one feared losing their job, and this allowed the next years rally to grow, would the casualties of the Charlottesville be worth it?
+Epydemic2020 be my guest. do it at your own risk. I don't attend public protests simply because I value my job and I'm not willing to risk it, no matter what the protest is about. once you put your face out there and you make the wrong person triggered, you are instantly a target. especially these days with feminism and racial justice
Hi Epy, once again I really like the more empathetic, and rational approach to the matter at hand. Again this is what I'm looking for. Now what I can add is, in the form of a question or questions. Since we should rather rehabilitate rather than merely discipline the villains, should we also try to relate to them in the virtue ethicist sense? Especially since, though those people hold fringe ideals, should we try to reconcile and remind ourselves that they too are members of our communities? Both in American and Canadian (where I'm from) communities to be exact?
CosmoShidan I honestly don't know. A lot of it depends on if you're method is effective. We need some data hard to listen to psychologist to actually know these things
Argument #1 against doing so is the only one I can get behind, but it's an argument in favor of diligence, not abstention. If we know for a fact that the person is a Nazi, like for example, when they admit to it, then that means they are advocates of genocide. Shaming them is the least offensive thing we could do in response to that. They're going to come to harm. They should. My great grandfather killed Nazis and he was right to do so. Nazis, as we have seen, don't respond to reason. They are already as socially isolated from the mainstream as can be and they've found brotherhood in that extreme, in overt genocidal white supremacy. What does a society do when reason fails and genocidal fascism is growing?
Decent arguments, though I think I'd err on the side of caution with this one and NOT dox someone. As you said, mob justice is terrible. And choosing to dox someone could have repercussions well beyond your intentions. Also, are we, as ordinary citizens, qualified to pass judgment like this? Have we conducted full and fair investigations? Do we have all the facts? These are important questions. It's also a good idea to get to the ROOT of why this is happening. As one of my favorite Liberals, Sargon of Akkad pointed out, it's the Left which CREATED Fascists. These people are the response to what the Left has been doing for quite some time now. ua-cam.com/video/jgccg9xurE8/v-deo.html It's important to keep this in mind because if it was not for the Left's actions, movements like this would probably not get any traction in the US. Much of the momentum and attraction toward backlash hate groups is in response to feeling threatened that everything you hold dear is being torn down. What were the main chants of these people? "Blood and Soil"... "You will not replace us"... What they want is a preservation of their homeland and lifestyle. And if you really think about it, this is an understandable concern. The US has been importing people from the third world in droves for decades now. It was not always like this. Witnessing your cities and neighborhoods transform in this way is frightening for a lot of people. The quality of life, level of crime, and general demographics turned sour for a whole lot of people. I don't think these are people who are like the Nazis of old who wanted to EXTERMINATE unfavored races from the face of the earth. Goodness no. But what they do want is some kind of preservation of a place in the world where these people can live the way they want to live. Is that wrong? I often think of the Japanese when considering these arguments. The Japanese have a homeland, race, and culture which is extremely well defined and intact. And nobody seems upset by this. Why? Why aren't people accusing the Japanese of being xenophobes? Because they have every right to their national and cultural identity. What's astounding is that the Western people are not afforded this luxury. Multiculturalism floods in and essentially washes away Western society. It's already well underway in Europe. People in the US can see it happening there. The Muslim flood has all but destroyed European culture and civilization. So when people see the same trend starting to pick up steam in the USA, they get nervous and upset. Does this make sense?
The big problem, of course, is how do you define a 'Nazi'? Since the idea went viral that it is 'ok to punch a Nazi' then it has become even more popular than ever to label anyone you disagree with as a 'Nazi'. Consequently, certain groups on the extreme left have been calling gays, Jews and anyone they disagree with or have fallen out with Nazis... You have made no attempt in this video to define how YOU define a Nazi. You mentioned racism early in the video. If a black person hates white folks (there are plenty of examples on youtube)- are they Nazis? Most people would say not... so your definition can't just be anyone who is racist. The dictionary would say a Nazi is a member of the National-Socialist German Workers' Party. Obviously that isn't what people mean when they throw the term around - but what exactly do they mean? And no, I'm not defending extreme right wing hate-filled, bigoted, racist idiots - but I am careful to call them out for what they are.
Just some points I'd like to say and a rant about the media 😂💁🏾♂️ 1. I don't trust the mainstream media narratives💁🏾♂️ The mainstream media has so far managed to split the political sides in the US, further apart. 2. What the fuck do nazis have to do with the 1800s???...IN THE FRICKIN US(not addressed to u friend) 1920s == 1800s?? 3. That flag is not even an official version of the confederacy. It isn't legitimately the Confederate flag but the media has managed to make it seem so🤦🏾♂️ 4. Didn't anyone ever think that there must be a misunderstanding between those who see the world through the the constructed divisive and pervasive narratives formed by the mainstream media, and those who fly that flag. Or has anyone even attempted to find out the other side's views, before figuratively (or literally) burning them at the stake?? Like some Salem witch trials shit?? Why don't people find out why that flag is accepted by the people who wave it?💁🏾♂️ People these days can't just at least be as reasonable as the legend, Daryl Davis and see their fellow man as...their fellow man first💁🏾♂️, sit the fuck down to have a civil conversation about why they wave that flag, and what it represents to them?? and know where they actually stand?? Cus nazis==kkk is some crazy ass disingenuous equation to assert I'm saying this cus people are soooooo wrong in simply labeling everyone who owns that flag, they call the "Confederate" flag, as kkk nazis🤦🏾♂️ without finding out the perspective of the other side Seems to me that people are more eager to virtue signal than to be right about their accusations against their fellow man. Also, did I mention how I so hate the fucking mainstream media?😤 It(the mainstream political narratives)has reached unbelievable despicable height in polarizing the country SIGNIFICANTLY Let them (people who's political worldview is dictated by the mainstream media narratives) find out I'm leftwing, just not radical and I support trump -- then I am a fascist racist +phobic bigot and a nazi and a kkk member....🤯🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️. I'm actually a right leaning libertarian, and I fucking loathe what the media has done to American politics 😤😤 Man, I really hate the way the media has successfully polarized the country. I blame the media first
Good points. I personally don't care enough to try to figure out who is involved. Until I feel they are actually a threat to our system of government, I tend to ignore them.
owchywawa
If you recognised someone, would you point it out?
I find the arguments against it much more convincing.
aednil
I lean that way as well, especially the first two.
I'm really disappointed that you didn't give the free speech argument. JSM argued that free speech didn't only mean freedom from persecution of the government, but he also argued that social repercussions have a chilling effect on speech and it too causes people not to say what they think. If we're really concerned about having justified and true belief, then we wouldn't want to lose the arguments against that which we've already decided as wrong. It doesn't matter if bad ideas are oppressed from the government or social shaming, it has the same effect of taking those bad ideas out of the public consequence and has the same risk of us losing the justification for the contra position of those bad ideas.
I think only a court of law should have the right to name and shame, thus defusing the second of your "against" arguments and both "pro" ones. The other two against arguments still stand, however.
Marcomanseckisax
Should it be illegal to say around the water cooler "I saw Pete from accounting on tv holding a Nazi flag!"
Strange question. Wouldn't it be unconstitutional to make such denunciation illegal?
Marcomanseckisax
I'd think it would be impossible to legally ban that water cooler talk, but that water cooler talk would be an example of a private citizen, as opposed to a court, naming and shaming someone they know.
(frustratedly) - quite.
I don't think a court ought to have the power to shame. Its my opinion that stocks (and other such punishments) are a form of cruel and unusual punishment. Sure, there is shame that comes along with a criminal conviction, but that's because you humiliated by doing something bad itself. If the latter is what you meant, then I agree. I just wanted to object to the idea that the courts should distribute additional shame other than that shame that would follow a man for committing injustice.
"Epydemic2020" = "epidemic in 2020"
oh. my. gaawwd.
#Coronavirus #BetterThanSylviaBrowne
Called it.
@@Testeverything521 Hey you do still exist
@@95TurboSol I do indeed.
The last argument against is the first I thought of. I think it'll lead to more extreme views rather than reversing them. I don't see any lasting benefit.
And yes there's the threats, violent retaliation (some we've already seen). I'm concerned about where this might lead.
Tose Akinmola
Very interesting. That's the most outside the box way of thinking in my opinion.
Easy ! Yes, unecassary hate that ends in many deaths!
I think there may be an argument to be made that the societal benefit of public shaming may outweigh the cons. If, for example, it's true that the public shaming was responsible for the utterly terrible turnout of the second annual Nazi rally that it was worth it because it prevented the movement from growing, effectively 'smashing the nucleus of their movement' without physical violence.
If no one was shamed, and no one feared losing their job, and this allowed the next years rally to grow, would the casualties of the Charlottesville be worth it?
do you want to be doc dropped? no? then don't do it to others.... very simple
alexporterfield
I'm not ashamed of any public protests I would attend though. I'm pretty sure I'd announce it publicly on fb.
+Epydemic2020 be my guest. do it at your own risk. I don't attend public protests simply because I value my job and I'm not willing to risk it, no matter what the protest is about. once you put your face out there and you make the wrong person triggered, you are instantly a target. especially these days with feminism and racial justice
Hi Epy, once again I really like the more empathetic, and rational approach to the matter at hand. Again this is what I'm looking for. Now what I can add is, in the form of a question or questions. Since we should rather rehabilitate rather than merely discipline the villains, should we also try to relate to them in the virtue ethicist sense? Especially since, though those people hold fringe ideals, should we try to reconcile and remind ourselves that they too are members of our communities? Both in American and Canadian (where I'm from) communities to be exact?
CosmoShidan
I honestly don't know. A lot of it depends on if you're method is effective. We need some data hard to listen to psychologist to actually know these things
Ah, so more research is needed.
Argument #1 against doing so is the only one I can get behind, but it's an argument in favor of diligence, not abstention. If we know for a fact that the person is a Nazi, like for example, when they admit to it, then that means they are advocates of genocide. Shaming them is the least offensive thing we could do in response to that. They're going to come to harm. They should. My great grandfather killed Nazis and he was right to do so. Nazis, as we have seen, don't respond to reason. They are already as socially isolated from the mainstream as can be and they've found brotherhood in that extreme, in overt genocidal white supremacy.
What does a society do when reason fails and genocidal fascism is growing?
Decent arguments, though I think I'd err on the side of caution with this one and NOT dox someone. As you said, mob justice is terrible. And choosing to dox someone could have repercussions well beyond your intentions. Also, are we, as ordinary citizens, qualified to pass judgment like this? Have we conducted full and fair investigations? Do we have all the facts? These are important questions.
It's also a good idea to get to the ROOT of why this is happening. As one of my favorite Liberals, Sargon of Akkad pointed out, it's the Left which CREATED Fascists. These people are the response to what the Left has been doing for quite some time now.
ua-cam.com/video/jgccg9xurE8/v-deo.html
It's important to keep this in mind because if it was not for the Left's actions, movements like this would probably not get any traction in the US. Much of the momentum and attraction toward backlash hate groups is in response to feeling threatened that everything you hold dear is being torn down. What were the main chants of these people? "Blood and Soil"... "You will not replace us"... What they want is a preservation of their homeland and lifestyle. And if you really think about it, this is an understandable concern. The US has been importing people from the third world in droves for decades now. It was not always like this. Witnessing your cities and neighborhoods transform in this way is frightening for a lot of people. The quality of life, level of crime, and general demographics turned sour for a whole lot of people. I don't think these are people who are like the Nazis of old who wanted to EXTERMINATE unfavored races from the face of the earth. Goodness no. But what they do want is some kind of preservation of a place in the world where these people can live the way they want to live. Is that wrong?
I often think of the Japanese when considering these arguments. The Japanese have a homeland, race, and culture which is extremely well defined and intact. And nobody seems upset by this. Why? Why aren't people accusing the Japanese of being xenophobes? Because they have every right to their national and cultural identity. What's astounding is that the Western people are not afforded this luxury. Multiculturalism floods in and essentially washes away Western society. It's already well underway in Europe. People in the US can see it happening there. The Muslim flood has all but destroyed European culture and civilization. So when people see the same trend starting to pick up steam in the USA, they get nervous and upset. Does this make sense?
are you still a Christian or a believer?
Yes indeed
The big problem, of course, is how do you define a 'Nazi'? Since the idea went viral that it is 'ok to punch a Nazi' then it has become even more popular than ever to label anyone you disagree with as a 'Nazi'. Consequently, certain groups on the extreme left have been calling gays, Jews and anyone they disagree with or have fallen out with Nazis... You have made no attempt in this video to define how YOU define a Nazi. You mentioned racism early in the video. If a black person hates white folks (there are plenty of examples on youtube)- are they Nazis? Most people would say not... so your definition can't just be anyone who is racist. The dictionary would say a Nazi is a member of the National-Socialist German Workers' Party. Obviously that isn't what people mean when they throw the term around - but what exactly do they mean? And no, I'm not defending extreme right wing hate-filled, bigoted, racist idiots - but I am careful to call them out for what they are.
Just some points I'd like to say and a rant about the media 😂💁🏾♂️
1. I don't trust the mainstream media narratives💁🏾♂️
The mainstream media has so far managed to split the political sides in the US, further apart.
2. What the fuck do nazis have to do with the 1800s???...IN THE FRICKIN US(not addressed to u friend)
1920s == 1800s??
3. That flag is not even an official version of the confederacy. It isn't legitimately the Confederate flag but the media has managed to make it seem so🤦🏾♂️
4. Didn't anyone ever think that there must be a misunderstanding between those who see the world through the the constructed divisive and pervasive narratives formed by the mainstream media, and those who fly that flag. Or has anyone even attempted to find out the other side's views, before figuratively (or literally) burning them at the stake?? Like some Salem witch trials shit??
Why don't people find out why that flag is accepted by the people who wave it?💁🏾♂️
People these days can't just at least be as reasonable as the legend, Daryl Davis and see their fellow man as...their fellow man first💁🏾♂️, sit the fuck down to have a civil conversation about why they wave that flag, and what it represents to them?? and know where they actually stand?? Cus nazis==kkk is some crazy ass disingenuous equation to assert
I'm saying this cus people are soooooo wrong in simply labeling everyone who owns that flag, they call the "Confederate" flag, as kkk nazis🤦🏾♂️ without finding out the perspective of the other side
Seems to me that people are more eager to virtue signal than to be right about their accusations against their fellow man.
Also, did I mention how I so hate the fucking mainstream media?😤
It(the mainstream political narratives)has reached unbelievable despicable height in polarizing the country SIGNIFICANTLY
Let them (people who's political worldview is dictated by the mainstream media narratives) find out I'm leftwing, just not radical and I support trump -- then I am a fascist racist +phobic bigot and a nazi and a kkk member....🤯🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️. I'm actually a right leaning libertarian, and I fucking loathe what the media has done to American politics 😤😤
Man, I really hate the way the media has successfully polarized the country. I blame the media first