Meanwhile in the Halls of Mandos, the sound of a quill could be heard: "I will not make my family take an oath to become murderhobos. How much longer do I need to do this, Lord Mandos ?" "Keep going, Feanor. Luthien moved me to mercy. But when your son murdered her and Beren's son, you moved me to anger. Continue writing, plenty of scrolls left"
Racoon Little It is, God made us co-creators of the world. This is why we can shape the world as it is now, though we have abused this gift and God’s creations. God still trusts us with this gift.
Legolas: and you have my bow. Gimli: and my axe! Boromir: you carry the fate of us all little one. If this is the will of the council Gondor will see it through.
Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Theologically, oaths (and covenants), curses, and promises are important. Often, though, even if one party to an oath breaks their part, the other party tries to keep theirs. God's promise to Abraham was fulfilled even though Abraham's children had broken their part of the deal again and again. I think Tolkien had a similar perspective in relation to Illuvatar and the subject of oaths, curses and promises.
Yes, not to mention we have free will, and Tolkien being Catholic believed in that as well. If the Sons of Feanor had repented and ask for forgiven they likely would have been granted it by Eru. The reason why Frodo fails to destroy the Ring, is that you need the help of God's grace, cooperating with free will to conquer sin, The Ring itself being a symbol of Orginal Sin. The one sin to rule them all.
@@balrog262 Well.... original sin? That's quite a stretch. Tolkien was clear he did not write allegories which is why he did not like his friend Lewis' fiction. If that were the case all evil would have been wiped out forever, and it was not.
@Anna93 It’s more like Tolkien didn’t intentionally write allegory, while Lewis did intentionally write. Ultimately, there will be some measure of bleed through in a writer’s works.
Yes, but the importance of oaths, dooms, and curses is also ubiquitous in the Germanic myths Tolkien drew from. In fact, oaths are important in all ancient societies - they were the currency much of society ran on.
@@Anna-tj7mp Yes, Tolkien said he doesn't write allegories (Willingly), but a bystander can entirely see the allegories whether they are deliberate or not, they're just there and that's a fact. He was a devout catholic and a religious man. While when actively writing it he may not have thought of the Bible or other christian literature, his upbringing and way of life impacted the writing and he made allegories without realizing them, because he doesn't know better as in his mind he doesn't see them. One is such as the environment was brought up in. As an atheist, but being familiar still with religious literature, the allegories and parallels to the Christian texts are blatantly obvious. To be perfectly honest, you could exchange Arda for Earth, Eru for God (Jesus) and all the Valar/Maiar for Various Angels and Morgoth for Devil, throw in all the Biblical events and it would be nearly identical. Even Silmarillion is written very much in a similar manner as the Bible is. It always makes me cackle a bit when he says he doesn't use allegories or real life events as inspiration. He did, so very often, he just didn't realize it at the time. He might be brilliant but he's still human like the rest of us. And he was also quite proud and stubborn and didn't want to admit things he didn't believe in, whether right or wrong. He sees the world and also his imaginary world aka Arda via his POV, which is highly religious, so of course there will be religious allegories there. Just because he didn't believe there were none doesn't mean there are none. Only the readers can judge that.
"Now is the hour, riders of Rohan! Oaths you have taken, now fulfill them all, to lord and land!" Personally I think Tolkien understood the power of the tongue; he was a master of the written word but also knew the spoken word had power and one should always be careful what to say in times of strife or hardship The Israelites murmured and complained about their circumstances after Eygpt and wondered in the wilderness for 40 years just as an example Tolkien clearly wanted that point to be made, repeatedly mind u, in his works I think oaths, dooms and curses are part of the vehicle for the fulfillment of the fate of Arda How else can it end the way it was intended? :)
Another smaller doom or curse was when Eol the dark elf, cursed his son Meglin to die the same death as him. And that very curse came true in the same city of Gondolin. Great topic my friend!
tantan I had “The Hobbit” read to me as a child. a chapter or two every day over the whole summer. can imagine the dreams of a ten year old fuelled by such a masterpiece? I will always cherish that book.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed and the Valar will fence Valinor against you and shut you out so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains" -The doom of Mandos (at least I think that's part of it)
I must agree with Gilan Bar Ona . Tolkien fashioned his epic works with an underpinning of the morality which he knew as a Catholic. Oaths in his works show characters using each their own will in order to fulfill or break the oath with the consequences promised. Curses and evil dooms befall those who have erred in their conduct. In order to avoid the consequences, those who are doomed must then repent of their mistakes and take a better course. In all of this, Tolkien admirably mirrors what happens in the real world when people use their free will to either fulfill their promises or break them, fulfill their doom / destiny or try to avoid it. This is yet another facet of reality which makes Tolkien's works come alive for us.
"And Mandos foretold that the fates of air, earth and sea were tied up with the Silmarils". (paraphrase) No matter what Maedhros and Maglor did, the Silmarils would have ended up in the earth, air, and sea. Because Mandos speaks the Dooms of Eru, and Eru is Lord of All. Second, Galadriel was still under the Ban and the Doom--the only one of the Noldor to be so after the First Age. It was only until she was finally tested by Frodo that the Ban was lifted. In the last confrontation, Tolkien says that "it seemed as if the Wheel of Fire itself spoke". So, in a sense, the Ring itself doomed Smeagol "if you touch me again, you yourself shall be cast into the Fire'.
Or Like the promise of God to Adam and Eve which continue to Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Judah to all Israel than being full-filed by the Son of God Jesus Christ it’s called the protoevangelium
As important as Theoden upholding the oath of a Eorl was, Folcwine's fulfillment of the oath also bears mention for what he lost in fighting the Haradrim for Gondor
One thing to point out is that Hurin actually had made an oath to never tell anyone about where gondolin was (even if he didnt fully know where it was himself), and the doom of his family was caused by him not breaking that oath. He also was the man that cursed the treasure of nargothrond, and when he brought it to doriath he cursed them too, by doing so,
I was tromping through the woods yesterday and came across a broken tree that looked very similar to a person. I had an idea for a short story based on an old greek tragedy where the tragic hero is turned into a tree (I also just finished studying this in university), I appreciate this video as I was thinking about Tolkien's interest in Greek mythology and biblical symbolism. This is a nice summary!
And my oath to you, my lovely yoystan, is to always be amazed of your videos, your voice, the person behind the microphone. It’s a dream to know, and a hope I hold dear
As someone who loves the deeper thematic and cosmological elements of the Legendarium, this video was just what I like to see! and I would love to see more like it in the future! I also love that this community keeps diving into Tolkien's world, especially now when so much in the real world looks bleak, it's good to remember that while the darkness is real, it is fleeting and that Aure Entuvula (Day will come again), something I think the Professor always understood. Keep up the good work!!
Great video! But I have to wonder at Isildur's state of mind at 2:45 . "People. We must flee the fair shores of Numenor, lest the righteous wrath of the Valar consume us with them. Do not burden yourselves with treasures, for space on board our ships is short. Take only what you need... oh but don't forget that huge freaking boulder. Come on!"
I think Tolkien uses "oaths, dooms, and curses", wittingly or unwittingly, to pass on his moral philosophy (part Catholic, part virtuous pagan) to the reader. Specifically, that one must always speak and act truthfully, that words and actions must match, because there are consequences. In theistic moral frameworks God (or a god) is the ultimate source of morality. Man can say and do as he pleases, but in the end his every word and action will be judged by God.
There is a difference in my mind between being a manger, and being a leader. The first is only a position of status, the second is the authority given by others who will follow. A good leader gives more than they take. They look for and find value in the people who choose to follow them. They understand that they need others more than they are needed. A leader should always be asking why they want to lead, is it for the people around them, or is it for their own ego.
Not all breaking of oaths lead to death. When Beregond protected Faramir from being slain by his father he shed blood. But Aragorn knowing that the act was done out of love for Faramir he was spared the death penalty.
I dont really like learning lore about fantasy worlds, but tolkien's universe is one of the few exceptions. It is really complex and beautiful to learn about.
My theory is this: by willingly entering under an oath the people taking it sacrifice there free will a bit. As for dooms and curses, most of them come around from Eru directly or from an oath with Eru as a witness. Any doom of Mandos is from Eru (as Mandos is just a messager) and Eru is the only real God in Arda As for the curse of the house of Hurin, Morgoth is the most powerful Valar and I bet he could somehow manipulate reality that way.
That’s pretty much my take too. People have free will, but when they take an oath they sacrifice part of that free will. Not by any means all of it however. Maedhros is a good example here. Although he took the Oath of Fëanor, he abandoned it: presumably by the counsel of Fingon. Only after Fingon’s death was he drawn back into the Oath, and then only with great reluctance. However, it clearly also had power. Maedhros unraveled very quickly after agreeing to lead the Siege of Doriath. He went from “you did WHAT to the kids?” to “lets attack a refugee camp” in less than a decade. For an elf, that’s practically a psychotic break.
What a great, informative video :) As for the topic, I like the compatability idea the most - oaths, dooms and curses clearly have power in Tolkien's world, but they can't at least all be deterministic, as Men aren't bound by the Music of the Ainur. "Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest." -The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Days I don't think the Music determined everything in detail, but certain dooms like the death of the Two Trees, Elves entering Valinor, and Morgoths downfall were, in some form, inevitable. But Men are free from these constraints, and the vision Eru gave the Ainur ended accordingly; before Men came to dominate Middle-Earth and "[...]of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed[...]". Also, my favourite doom is that of Huan, who received his powers from the Valar; he couldn't die of natural causes, only be killed by the greatest wolf that ever lived when he fell under the Doom of the Noldor and was "permitted" (what a telling word choice in this context!) to speak three times in his life. Hopefully he'll be featured in one of your future videos again (as he is of course mentioned in the Beren and Luthien and the Mythic Beasts videos), but in my totally unbiased view he deserves all the attention. Sauron transforming into a werewolf and being beaten by Huan is such a grand scene when you consider how dreadful and mighty Sauron is described in The Lord of the Rings.
Nice vid! There's also Finrod Felagund oath to Barahir and his descendants, which he kept when Beren asked for his help in retreaving the silmaril. This, along with his other redeeming qualities, is probably one of the reasons for Finrod rather fast release from the Halls of Mandos.
I feel like Turin, through his temper and willfulness led to actions that brought a lot of Morgoths curse down on him. Such as killing of Saeros, and refusing to return to Doriath,. And his pride brought about the downfall of Naurgathrond. And then there’s Nienors refusal to listen to her mother, and followed her and thus meeting up with Glaurang. Oh and I forgot that Morwen was too proud to be an “alms guest” of Thingel: otherwise when her daughter was old enough, she would have taken her ass to Doriath and they would have all been safe under Melian. At least Turin and Nienor would have met and not have married! So I guess that the lesson here is that pride goeth before the fall!
ferretmom4ever he threw the flagon after saeros insulted him and Turin chased him because saeros actually attacked him. Turin might’ve overreacted but saeros provoked him both times
I love this video. I don’t think many fans really take into consideration the oaths and curses on characters. Especially the curse of Morgoth on Hurin and his kin. I have seen on many forums and posts that a lot fans think Turin was just naive, cocky and oblivious to accepting help. Morgoth’s curse was a shadow over every decision Turin made, whether it be right or wrong. Every good he attempted to do, the curse would be there to create more pain and strife. Eventually it killed Turin his sister, his mother, while Hurin saw all that came to pass, before he also took his own life.
Some food for thoughts. When you were a child and was told to NOT do something, you probably did it anyway. If you were told TO do something that you didn't want to do, you probably didn't obey. Now, if you were told to NOT do something or you would be punished, you probably did that something anyway, hoping you wouldn't get caught. I know I did, and got caught just about every time and suffered the punishments. I think the same circumstances work with oaths, dooms, and curses. Telling someone you will put a curse on them if they break their promise will usually result in that someone suffering a loss of some sort because their mind keeps reminding them they have broken their promise. In the words of Aragorn "What say you?"
"(...) even if he would have tried to use the loophole of serving himself as the new master of the precious." I like how you just casually suggested this ming-blowing possibility. I bet even Tolkien didn't think of that.
Varda or Manwe (I can't remember which) said that they couldn't lift the oath of the Noldor because they called the name of Iluvatar so I don't think that the surviving son's of Feanor would find peace in Valinor
Not without first repenting and seeking forgiveness. They called upon the name of Ilúvatar, and so only Ilúvatar could forgive them. However, Maedhros and Maglor, especially under the good influence of their mother, likely would have repented.
"These too shall find that all done redounds to My Glory". Eru needed to speak that after the Ainulindale and when devising the Gift of Men in order to order all things. This was the Ultimate Doom. That no matter what, EVERYTHING comes to fruition for the Glory of Iluvatar.
Maglor and Maedhros were so tragic. They showed genuine moments of heroism throughout the Silmarillion, but the Oath of Feanor was just too much. Good breakdown though Yoystan!
The Nauglamir was charged with the Valar's curse on the Noldor elves, Morgoth's curse on a man, and the dwarf Mîm's curse on the murderer of his son. It was dangerous like a nuke with a tendency to explode spontaneously and more desirable than the One Ring... anyone knowing his lore would pack and leave while it's still possible 😅
What a great subject for a LOTR video! Awesome work. You should do a video on the white trees: Telperion, Galathilion, Nimloth, the trees of Minas Ithil and Minas Anor!
"The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road." (Elrond)
As for Gollum's doom, that no doubt had many "causes" -- Gollum, Frodo, and ultimately Eru; yet I think it mostly has to do with the nature of the ring itself, which always betrayed its master. Bilbo was the only one who came off RELATIVELY unharmed, unless you want to count Sam.
*we still rely on oaths predominatly today too.* put police under oaths before signing an arrest warrant. put wittnesses under oath to testify. make judges and politicians swear an oath - and they can be punished for things others who did not swear such an oath would not be. ive always found oaths facinating. gr8 vid this one.
@@PriyaPans for sure. it is the question of oversight & enforcement. but if you have ever taken an oath: there is a difference. you know you are doing something you explicit swore not to do. there is no grey area or slipery slope. but there has to be more. and it is hard to see a system where teh pendulum of who wates the watches doesnt always move until everything falls. but oaths and separation of powers is all we have.
Do a video on the foresight of the Wise, the Elves and the Dunedain! It plays such a fascinating role in the philosophical mechanics you’re talking about. Does “not by the hand of man shall he fall” *create* the fate of the Witch-King? Is “If you pass the doors of Moria, beware!” the same kind of foresight as “we may yet meet again on the field of battle, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us”? Y’know, how does the reading of Fate work in the legendarium? Are these visions of things that will be, or only of things that may be?
Shadowofchaos 89 true. I’m just pointing out that the uruk hai army would’ve actually won if not for Gandalf’s reinforcements, the uruk hai had already broken the outer wall by blasting it
A video about Gandalf and Thrain would be nice. Or other similar types of character relationships. More in depth videos about battles. More region spotlight on places and objects even. Love your videos mellon! Thank you for another Tolkien fix! ✨🧙
There are many parallels in Tolkien's work to Norse Mythology and the weight and importance an oath and curse has is one just like many names of dwarves especially. If you like the professor's work you will like The Poetic Edda of Norse Mythology and Saga of the Volsung's.
I am more of a freewill person. Many of the Silmarillion curses are actions that the persons themselves do. There's no invisible hand forcing them to do anything. Like with Turin. So I will always interpreted in-uinverse curses as foretellings of what is going to happen rather than any outside agenda playing chess. The only exception to this I find is with Niniel and Glaurung, where he forced the spell on her that screwed her the rest of her life over
Great video. This discussion could go on for hours..... It is obvious Tolkien believed in the power of of oaths, dooms and curses. I think he thought oaths would become self fulfilling prophecies, largely based on the intent of the maker of the oath. If the intent was to do harm then the the harm would often exact a cost from the oath taker. If the oath was to support a friend or ally then the promise of the oath must be fulfilled or the oath breaker would suffer. Even now in our own world taking an oath and breaking it has consequences.
In years past a man was only as good as his word. Keeping oaths were paramount to a man's good name and reputation. This predates christianity. Words were believed to have power. To speak falsely and with conceit cast a dark shadow on a man's character in the eyes and mind of those around him.
I agree, and across cultures. There is something immensely powerful about a promise: that promise holds you. Which is why no promise should ever be made lightly. ... I our time people have forgotten that and we are diminished as a result.
@@Anna-tj7mp all to often, over the years, I have heard the phrase " promises were made to be broken". Never was this so. You are so right in saying that falsehoods have diminished men. We have indeed become petty in spirit.
@@vixendoe2545 you only have to look at what leaders used to look like, what people really respect (exemplified by Aragon, and eomer and others in tolkeins works) and what leaders look like now. There aren't many similarities at all. Those wonderful qualities are becoming lost (respect, mercy, gallantry, responsibility, etc) Edit: I don't think I have to say anything specifically about how leaders currently do or don't keep their oaths and words true.
To add to my other comment, you might find this quote from Hume’s Enquiries interesting in the context of Illuvatar: “Allowing, therefore, the gods to be the authors of the existence or order of the universe; it follows, that they possess that precise degree of power, intelligence, and benevolence, which appears in their workmanship; but nothing farther can be proved, except we call in the assistance of exaggeration and flattery to supply the defects of argument and reasoning.” This makes me wonder about the distinction between 1) what we know about Illuvatar through his actions and 2) what do we know about Illuvatar through the stories told about him, the assumptions people have about Illuvatar, etc. To push this a little further, what are the dimensions of Illuvatar that Tolkien wrote that aren’t experienced by anyone in Middle Earth and so are rationally untouchable to the people of Middle Earth? And has anyone talked about Tolkien’s place in Middle Earth? If we are to take the cosmology of Middle Earth seriously, then not only should Tolkien’s relationship to Middle Earth be considered, but also our own own cosmology’s relationship to Middle Earth.
I have a question. In "The Fellowship of the Ring," Frodo is said to dream of mountains he'd never seen. Later, at Tom Bombadil's house, Frodo dreams of the Sea and his eventual journey to the Uttermost West. He sort-of forshadows Sméagol's fate, as you mentioned. In "The Return of the King," when Frodo is going to journey with the Elves and Bilbo, he tells Sam the names of five of his children, and says there may be more he "can't see." He says he'll be the Mayor as many times as he wishes, and the most famous gardener; he says he'll be the one to somehow ensure that the memory of Sauron and the Third Ag are carried on. We know all of this came to happen to Sam eventually. My question is if Frodo had the gift of foresight. I know it sounds unlikely, since foresight is somehow connected to magic, and Tolkien mentions that Hobbits have no connections to magic, but it does seem he can predict many events, concerning himself and his companions, especially.
I was glad to see that you dealt with the doom (or geis) that Frodo laid on Smeagal at the black gate ( and renewed at least twice more, as I recall). My impression is that this was binding, since Frodo used the power of the Ring, although Frodo may not have fully understood what he was doing. In any case, he did give Smeagol a choice between forgoing the Ring or being destroyed, and so didn't violate Smeagol's free will. Of course, this was a terrible choice for Smeagol, either way, but isn't that often the way with really important choices?
As regards determinism/compatabilism, I am a Molinist about our reality. Molina was a catholic counter-reformer who postulated that God knows not only what you will do, but what you would have done in any other set of circumstances you might have been in. God therefore arranges the circumstances such that your free action (balanced against the free actions of all other agents) brings about an ultimate result that accords with His will. I don't know if Tolkien was a Molinist, but he may well have been, and I find myself perfectly at ease with the idea that the actions and counterfactuals of the Valar and creatures of middle earth were foreknown to Eru Ilúvatar, and that He arranged the events so that they acted freely, but His purposes were finally realized. Regardless, this was a fantastic video on a highly absorbing topic. It made my day.
9:10-10:37 Wow. I have read a not little amount of speculation conserning the fate of the One Ring, in which prevailing idea is that Frodo (and possibly no-one) could not fulfill his quest of free will and Eru's involvement was eventually needed, forcing perhaps the point of Original sin (as is noted in the comment section). Nowhere, however, have I seen anyone pointing out that Frodo indeed laid a curse on Sméagol, which was later fulfilled to the letter. Congratulations on finding this profound detail!
You should do a video on Ælfwine, the last man to find the straight road, and the future of middle earth as “our world”. I’ve always been fascinated by the references Tolkien makes to this, of Arda as an alternative mythology for the real world.
Oaths do have power in the real world. I have sworn three in my life so far, one was foolish, so far I have kept them all, and in response to my keeping these three oaths, my life has been blessed. Even in the case of the foolish one that I made. Make that four. Good video, thanks.
Since reading the Silmarillion, I was filled with wonder, as to what mr. Tolkien actually meant by "doom", and as I finished reading and moved on to the LOTR trilogy, I knew that the DOOM he spoke of was merely "fate". The way he wrote it however was such that made us readers think that it was such a scary thing. The doom of the noldor for example. But then look at Beren and Luthien. Their doom turned out rather nice. And the doom of Earendil was something that middle earth would seek forever more.
Just wanna make a point I haven’t seen mentioned in any of your or the other LotR lore UA-camrs’ channels (all of which are high and excellent and I truly account you all as Tolkien scholars of great lore) - Y’all. The Valar were not supposed to rule the decisions of the Elves. They loved them, and like Gandalf they were only ever moved to their dominance by pity and that love, but they went from an emphatic invitation to the West to refusing to let them leave the West. I’m not saying Feanor wasn’t a hothead who damned an entire race of Elves for three-plus ages of Arda. I’m just saying, remember that Those who dwell beyond the Sea took a couple of key missteps, and at each such turn it was when they decided that ‘allowing’ the Elves their autonomy was against the best interests of the Elves. ETA: They did seem to repent of such steps during the Third Age. Their marching orders to the Istari, their subtle influencing of the end of the War of the Ring (none of us disagree with Elrond and Gandalf’s assertions that they wouldn’t take the Ring because it belongs to Middle-Earth, right)...evidently revoking the Ban of the Noldor for Galadriel and Elrond: all of it seems to point to greater wisdom in later days as the Children of the One were all gifted with that ability to grow and change and learn, albeit at different speeds over different periods of time.
Wow! A very interesting topic, Yoystan. I think there are certain aspects about dooms and curses that do not violate free will. It seems logical that free will and determinism are incompatible. Eru is the author of Eä's history. Just because Eru knows what will happen, does not mean Eru caused it or it could not happen any other way. Free thinking individuals have the benefit of agent causation, being the uncaused first cause of an action. This is called libertarian free will. This seems especially relevant when dealing with the race of Men. Though both Children of Iluvatar, let's not forget that Elves and Men are fundamentally different. The Doom of Men can not be undone, and there was never any question that it would be fulfilled. Like Yahweh in the Bible created man "in the image of God", so Eru created man in his image; if Eru is the uncaused first cause of the universe, then Men would possess the same capacity. The Doom of Mandos spoken to the Noldor was also fulfilled, but it is hard to imagine any other outcome given the situation the exiles put themselves in. It's a pronunciation--a warning of sorts--of what will happen given decisions that have already been made. To oaths, I think evoking the name of Eru brings a higher power into the contract. Iluvatar, being a perfect being, must see the oath fulfilled or justice be done on the oath breaker. Even if Eru was not mentioned in the promise of Smeagol to Frodo, I think the situation still warranted divine intervention. Think about it: the Valar aided in ridding the world of Morgoth, and Eru intervened by removing the threat of Numenor. Would it not be reasonable that Eru act again to stop Sauron, causing also the demise of Gollum who had bound his fate to that of the Precious? Being a fantasy story, of course there are also elements of magic to oaths, dooms and curses that should not need reasonable explanations. "The Children of Hurin" is full of cases that cannot be attributed to predictions or a logical sequence of events. But now we've entered a different realm of discussion and I don't want to be a bother. Great video, my friend! Final note if I have your attention. Would you consider talking about death, resurrection, and the undead in Tolkien's work? I think there's a lot of interesting stuff there.
I thought Melian said something about a doom on that a Man will be in doriath...Or Something like that!!! Thanks for this interesting discussion about Oaths, Dooms, and Curses...Until a Livestream, At A Time I can Make *Screams and Yells in Happiness* Thank You Mellon I can Make It...Marion Baggins Out...Going to watch a series Finale soon!!! YEAH MAN!!! Can't Wait!!!
Glad you liked the video Marion! I'm excited to talk to you during the livestream next week! Enjoy the Clone Wars finale (I assume that is the one you're watching, maybe Westworld)! Either way, enjoy!
@@MenoftheWest Thanks Mellon, and You are correct!!! Also, how did you know?!!! I was a Clone Wars fan, a few years before I got into Tolkien!!! I am Glad I will be talking with you, because my other friends aren't responing to me...But my UA-cam friends are!!!
Marion Baggins I’m sorry to hear about that about your other friends. But I feel like there is a lot of overlap between the fandom for LOTR and the fandom for Star Wars! I myself love Star Wars and am excited to see how this last episode plays out!
Tinuviel, may the 4th be with you, Mellon. JRR and Star Wars are a perfect match. Stay safe. Just watched a guilty pleasure ‘The Princess Bride’. Lol. Stay safe.
I liked that the oath of feanor could have been met if his two sons hadn't possessed the silmarils with greed and just followed them West. Allowing one to be opened for it's light to regrow the two trees leaves one each.
Meanwhile in the Halls of Mandos, the sound of a quill could be heard:
"I will not make my family take an oath to become murderhobos. How much longer do I need to do this, Lord Mandos ?"
"Keep going, Feanor. Luthien moved me to mercy. But when your son murdered her and Beren's son, you moved me to anger. Continue writing, plenty of scrolls left"
Is;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Pfahahahaha! A fitting punishment!
Lol soo apt for Feanor
Take a shot of whiskey every time MotW says "Oaths, Dooms, and Curses." You'd be more drunk than Gimli was in his drinking contest with Legolas.
Oh please don't, I don't want anyone to get alcohol poisoning! It would do more than it did to Legolas.
@@MenoftheWest Okay not whiskey. A pint of Ale then.
The voice of Illuvatar brought Arda into being, it stands that his children also have some power in their words to shape the world around them.
Glenn Ross I agree with you. The same with God giving us the ability to shape the world, for better or for worst.
@@loganw1232 Never thought of this connection. Quite interesting!
Racoon Little It is, God made us co-creators of the world. This is why we can shape the world as it is now, though we have abused this gift and God’s creations. God still trusts us with this gift.
@@loganw1232 Which god? There are thousands. Millions even in hindu beliefs.
Sheev • 15 years ago He means Christ I think cause that is where the books of Tolkien are based on
“There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or the tongues of Men for this treachery.”
My business is with Isengard tonight! With a rock and stone.
@The God Emperor Himself but none to describe the treasonous nature of saruman's deeds
Time to get busy and make some new ones, then.
What about Valarin? Or in the Black Speech of Mordor?
Feanor- “Hold my mead.”
'By life, or death, I can protect you and I will, you have my sword!' -Aragorn
Legolas: and you have my bow.
Gimli: and my axe!
Boromir: you carry the fate of us all little one. If this is the will of the council Gondor will see it through.
A man who wouldn't make promises lightly
Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Theologically, oaths (and covenants), curses, and promises are important. Often, though, even if one party to an oath breaks their part, the other party tries to keep theirs. God's promise to Abraham was fulfilled even though Abraham's children had broken their part of the deal again and again. I think Tolkien had a similar perspective in relation to Illuvatar and the subject of oaths, curses and promises.
Yes, not to mention we have free will, and Tolkien being Catholic believed in that as well. If the Sons of Feanor had repented and ask for forgiven they likely would have been granted it by Eru. The reason why Frodo fails to destroy the Ring, is that you need the help of God's grace, cooperating with free will to conquer sin, The Ring itself being a symbol of Orginal Sin. The one sin to rule them all.
@@balrog262 Well.... original sin? That's quite a stretch. Tolkien was clear he did not write allegories which is why he did not like his friend Lewis' fiction. If that were the case all evil would have been wiped out forever, and it was not.
@Anna93 It’s more like Tolkien didn’t intentionally write allegory, while Lewis did intentionally write. Ultimately, there will be some measure of bleed through in a writer’s works.
Yes, but the importance of oaths, dooms, and curses is also ubiquitous in the Germanic myths Tolkien drew from. In fact, oaths are important in all ancient societies - they were the currency much of society ran on.
@@Anna-tj7mp Yes, Tolkien said he doesn't write allegories (Willingly), but a bystander can entirely see the allegories whether they are deliberate or not, they're just there and that's a fact. He was a devout catholic and a religious man. While when actively writing it he may not have thought of the Bible or other christian literature, his upbringing and way of life impacted the writing and he made allegories without realizing them, because he doesn't know better as in his mind he doesn't see them. One is such as the environment was brought up in. As an atheist, but being familiar still with religious literature, the allegories and parallels to the Christian texts are blatantly obvious.
To be perfectly honest, you could exchange Arda for Earth, Eru for God (Jesus) and all the Valar/Maiar for Various Angels and Morgoth for Devil, throw in all the Biblical events and it would be nearly identical. Even Silmarillion is written very much in a similar manner as the Bible is.
It always makes me cackle a bit when he says he doesn't use allegories or real life events as inspiration. He did, so very often, he just didn't realize it at the time. He might be brilliant but he's still human like the rest of us. And he was also quite proud and stubborn and didn't want to admit things he didn't believe in, whether right or wrong. He sees the world and also his imaginary world aka Arda via his POV, which is highly religious, so of course there will be religious allegories there. Just because he didn't believe there were none doesn't mean there are none. Only the readers can judge that.
Online schooling? Nah, I wanna know how curses work in the Tolkien Religion.
"Now is the hour, riders of Rohan! Oaths you have taken, now fulfill them all, to lord and land!"
Personally I think Tolkien understood the power of the tongue; he was a master of the written word but also knew the spoken word had power and one should always be careful what to say in times of strife or hardship
The Israelites murmured and complained about their circumstances after Eygpt and wondered in the wilderness for 40 years just as an example
Tolkien clearly wanted that point to be made, repeatedly mind u, in his works
I think oaths, dooms and curses are part of the vehicle for the fulfillment of the fate of Arda
How else can it end the way it was intended? :)
Oh wow dude you have type to type
Like the diffrent bibles in our world.... simple words that have lead many to death and destruction but ment to be for good.
Feanor three times cursed the name of Melkor. IIRC that is when he changed his name. This is lowkey the most Tolkeinesque moment ever.
Another smaller doom or curse was when Eol the dark elf, cursed his son Meglin to die the same death as him.
And that very curse came true in the same city of Gondolin.
Great topic my friend!
I’d like to hear about that very much
18 years later, and I am still in love with this masterpiece.
Ditto 60 years later, it never palls.
tantan I had “The Hobbit” read to me as a child. a chapter or two every day over the whole summer. can imagine the dreams of a ten year old fuelled by such a masterpiece? I will always cherish that book.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed and the Valar will fence Valinor against you and shut you out so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains" -The doom of Mandos (at least I think that's part of it)
Danae m no one is more badass than Mandos!
@@k3vinhayne so true
Who was he cursing?
@@spencerfrankclayton4348 The Noldor.
I must agree with Gilan Bar Ona
. Tolkien fashioned his epic works with an underpinning of the morality which he knew as a Catholic. Oaths in his works show characters using each their own will in order to fulfill or break the oath with the consequences promised. Curses and evil dooms befall those who have erred in their conduct. In order to avoid the consequences, those who are doomed must then repent of their mistakes and take a better course. In all of this, Tolkien admirably mirrors what happens in the real world when people use their free will to either fulfill their promises or break them, fulfill their doom / destiny or try to avoid it. This is yet another facet of reality which makes Tolkien's works come alive for us.
Thank you, I feel I live in Middle Earth, Been binge watching everything I can find of Tolkien's world. It sure beats being locked in alone.
"And Mandos foretold that the fates of air, earth and sea were tied up with the Silmarils". (paraphrase) No matter what Maedhros and Maglor did, the Silmarils would have ended up in the earth, air, and sea. Because Mandos speaks the Dooms of Eru, and Eru is Lord of All. Second, Galadriel was still under the Ban and the Doom--the only one of the Noldor to be so after the First Age. It was only until she was finally tested by Frodo that the Ban was lifted. In the last confrontation, Tolkien says that "it seemed as if the Wheel of Fire itself spoke". So, in a sense, the Ring itself doomed Smeagol "if you touch me again, you yourself shall be cast into the Fire'.
Ooooh that last bit is a very interesting detail!
Anything remembered through the ages and passed down seem to have the potent magic
I think that broken oathes and promises in Tolkien's works are punished as a show that you should always stick to your word.
Middle Earth’s oaths, curses, and promises, are similar to God’s covenants with Israel in the Bible.
Or Like the promise of God to Adam and Eve which continue to Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Judah to all Israel than being full-filed by the Son of God Jesus Christ it’s called the protoevangelium
As important as Theoden upholding the oath of a Eorl was, Folcwine's fulfillment of the oath also bears mention for what he lost in fighting the Haradrim for Gondor
One thing to point out is that Hurin actually had made an oath to never tell anyone about where gondolin was (even if he didnt fully know where it was himself), and the doom of his family was caused by him not breaking that oath.
He also was the man that cursed the treasure of nargothrond, and when he brought it to doriath he cursed them too, by doing so,
I was tromping through the woods yesterday and came across a broken tree that looked very similar to a person. I had an idea for a short story based on an old greek tragedy where the tragic hero is turned into a tree (I also just finished studying this in university), I appreciate this video as I was thinking about Tolkien's interest in Greek mythology and biblical symbolism. This is a nice summary!
And my oath to you, my lovely yoystan, is to always be amazed of your videos, your voice, the person behind the microphone. It’s a dream to know, and a hope I hold dear
As someone who loves the deeper thematic and cosmological elements of the Legendarium, this video was just what I like to see! and I would love to see more like it in the future! I also love that this community keeps diving into Tolkien's world, especially now when so much in the real world looks bleak, it's good to remember that while the darkness is real, it is fleeting and that Aure Entuvula (Day will come again), something I think the Professor always understood. Keep up the good work!!
Great video! But I have to wonder at Isildur's state of mind at 2:45 . "People. We must flee the fair shores of Numenor, lest the righteous wrath of the Valar consume us with them. Do not burden yourselves with treasures, for space on board our ships is short. Take only what you need... oh but don't forget that huge freaking boulder. Come on!"
The Riddle Game has the same power as Oaths in Tolkien.
This is my favourite channel on UA-cam. Love the sheer passion and detail you put into these videos!
I think Tolkien uses "oaths, dooms, and curses", wittingly or unwittingly, to pass on his moral philosophy (part Catholic, part virtuous pagan) to the reader. Specifically, that one must always speak and act truthfully, that words and actions must match, because there are consequences. In theistic moral frameworks God (or a god) is the ultimate source of morality. Man can say and do as he pleases, but in the end his every word and action will be judged by God.
I swear oath to always hold the line. Glad to see you, friends.
When you become king, are you going to called King NuclearJanitors ?
@@jackievarughese3945 i am not king material. I can lead men into battle but i can't lead them after it, or else I'd be doing much better in life.
There is a difference in my mind between being a manger, and being a leader. The first is only a position of status, the second is the authority given by others who will follow.
A good leader gives more than they take. They look for and find value in the people who choose to follow them. They understand that they need others more than they are needed.
A leader should always be asking why they want to lead, is it for the people around them, or is it for their own ego.
Glad to see you friend.
Jackkie varughese +Jesse the unending=the lords of douchery
Not all breaking of oaths lead to death. When Beregond protected Faramir from being slain by his father he shed blood. But Aragorn knowing that the act was done out of love for Faramir he was spared the death penalty.
Great video Yoysten! You failed to cover the sheer power of the Farmer's Doom though (I haven't forgotten about Maggot vs Gamgee)
This was one of the most interesting videos you've done.
I dont really like learning lore about fantasy worlds, but tolkien's universe is one of the few exceptions. It is really complex and beautiful to learn about.
Not for Middle-Earth directly, but in Germanic cultures, being known as oathbreaker was really serious thing. Your honor and word were nothing.
My theory is this: by willingly entering under an oath the people taking it sacrifice there free will a bit. As for dooms and curses, most of them come around from Eru directly or from an oath with Eru as a witness. Any doom of Mandos is from Eru (as Mandos is just a messager) and Eru is the only real God in Arda As for the curse of the house of Hurin, Morgoth is the most powerful Valar and I bet he could somehow manipulate reality that way.
That’s pretty much my take too. People have free will, but when they take an oath they sacrifice part of that free will. Not by any means all of it however. Maedhros is a good example here. Although he took the Oath of Fëanor, he abandoned it: presumably by the counsel of Fingon. Only after Fingon’s death was he drawn back into the Oath, and then only with great reluctance. However, it clearly also had power. Maedhros unraveled very quickly after agreeing to lead the Siege of Doriath. He went from “you did WHAT to the kids?” to “lets attack a refugee camp” in less than a decade. For an elf, that’s practically a psychotic break.
What a great, informative video :) As for the topic, I like the compatability idea the most - oaths, dooms and curses clearly have power in Tolkien's world, but they can't at least all be deterministic, as Men aren't bound by the Music of the Ainur.
"Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest."
-The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Days
I don't think the Music determined everything in detail, but certain dooms like the death of the Two Trees, Elves entering Valinor, and Morgoths downfall were, in some form, inevitable. But Men are free from these constraints, and the vision Eru gave the Ainur ended accordingly; before Men came to dominate Middle-Earth and "[...]of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed[...]".
Also, my favourite doom is that of Huan, who received his powers from the Valar; he couldn't die of natural causes, only be killed by the greatest wolf that ever lived when he fell under the Doom of the Noldor and was "permitted" (what a telling word choice in this context!) to speak three times in his life. Hopefully he'll be featured in one of your future videos again (as he is of course mentioned in the Beren and Luthien and the Mythic Beasts videos), but in my totally unbiased view he deserves all the attention. Sauron transforming into a werewolf and being beaten by Huan is such a grand scene when you consider how dreadful and mighty Sauron is described in The Lord of the Rings.
Nice vid! There's also Finrod Felagund oath to Barahir and his descendants, which he kept when Beren asked for his help in retreaving the silmaril.
This, along with his other redeeming qualities, is probably one of the reasons for Finrod rather fast release from the Halls of Mandos.
Oath of Feanör *a.k.a* Dooming all your sons's lives to search for some jewels. And the reason why I hate Feanör.
I feel like Turin, through his temper and willfulness led to actions that brought a lot of Morgoths curse down on him. Such as killing of Saeros, and refusing to return to Doriath,. And his pride brought about the downfall of Naurgathrond. And then there’s Nienors refusal to listen to her mother, and followed her and thus meeting up with Glaurang. Oh and I forgot that Morwen was too proud to be an “alms guest” of Thingel: otherwise when her daughter was old enough, she would have taken her ass to Doriath and they would have all been safe under Melian. At least Turin and Nienor would have met and not have married! So I guess that the lesson here is that pride goeth before the fall!
Turin didn’t actually kill saeros on purpose, saeros died in a fall after he had tried to attack Turin and was being chased
Jake Alter Yeah but he threw that flagon whatever at him and injured him because of his temper, And he chased him to his death for the same reason
ferretmom4ever he threw the flagon after saeros insulted him and Turin chased him because saeros actually attacked him. Turin might’ve overreacted but saeros provoked him both times
All for one and one for...GONDOR!!!!
Remember this day little brother. Today life is good
I love this video. I don’t think many fans really take into consideration the oaths and curses on characters.
Especially the curse of Morgoth on Hurin and his kin. I have seen on many forums and posts that a lot fans think Turin was just naive, cocky and oblivious to accepting help.
Morgoth’s curse was a shadow over every decision Turin made, whether it be right or wrong. Every good he attempted to do, the curse would be there to create more pain and strife. Eventually it killed Turin his sister, his mother, while Hurin saw all that came to pass, before he also took his own life.
I swear you posting this video has made this day a better one! Thanks mate.
Thank you so much for putting out these videos! I have found a greater understanding and love for Tolkien's works because of them.
Some food for thoughts. When you were a child and was told to NOT do something, you probably did it anyway. If you were told TO do something that you didn't want to do, you probably didn't obey. Now, if you were told to NOT do something or you would be punished, you probably did that something anyway, hoping you wouldn't get caught. I know I did, and got caught just about every time and suffered the punishments. I think the same circumstances work with oaths, dooms, and curses. Telling someone you will put a curse on them if they break their promise will usually result in that someone suffering a loss of some sort because their mind keeps reminding them they have broken their promise.
In the words of Aragorn "What say you?"
I appreciate you for making these videos. I’ve never been bored while watching/listening.
I was just thinking of this: have you ever thought of exploring the lore references, creatures, or landscapes in lotro?
"(...) even if he would have tried to use the loophole of serving himself as the new master of the precious."
I like how you just casually suggested this ming-blowing possibility. I bet even Tolkien didn't think of that.
I always enjoy your output. You provide ways of interpretation that I had not thought of on many occasions. Thank you.
Varda or Manwe (I can't remember which) said that they couldn't lift the oath of the Noldor because they called the name of Iluvatar so I don't think that the surviving son's of Feanor would find peace in Valinor
They might’ve, maedhros and maglor could’ve also been given a chance to redeem themselves
Not without first repenting and seeking forgiveness. They called upon the name of Ilúvatar, and so only Ilúvatar could forgive them. However, Maedhros and Maglor, especially under the good influence of their mother, likely would have repented.
I think gollum’s oath and braking is the most important one.
Mim's Curse, and the counter curse...
This is such a wonderfully thoughtful video and essay!! Thank you so much for your knowledge and your rhetorical craft, Joisten!
When you are the only one who doesn't get his comment liked by Yoysten.
Checkmate
"These too shall find that all done redounds to My Glory". Eru needed to speak that after the Ainulindale and when devising the Gift of Men in order to order all things. This was the Ultimate Doom. That no matter what, EVERYTHING comes to fruition for the Glory of Iluvatar.
I wonder how the Numenorians would have reacted to Tuor becoming one of the Firstborn. Probably would have made them more hell-bent on taking Valinor
Love your work. Metaphysic speak is so mysterious. It makes you wonder what controls our lives other than ourselves.
Maglor and Maedhros were so tragic. They showed genuine moments of heroism throughout the Silmarillion, but the Oath of Feanor was just too much. Good breakdown though Yoystan!
My favorite part of Sunday. Thanks so much for ur content.
Your LOTR videos remain the best - keep up the excellent work.
Love your channel! Keep up the great work! This is what informs me on everything about Tolkien :D Thx!!
The Nauglamir was charged with the Valar's curse on the Noldor elves, Morgoth's curse on a man, and the dwarf Mîm's curse on the murderer of his son. It was dangerous like a nuke with a tendency to explode spontaneously and more desirable than the One Ring... anyone knowing his lore would pack and leave while it's still possible 😅
What a great subject for a LOTR video! Awesome work. You should do a video on the white trees: Telperion, Galathilion, Nimloth, the trees of Minas Ithil and Minas Anor!
"The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road." (Elrond)
As for Gollum's doom, that no doubt had many "causes" -- Gollum, Frodo, and ultimately Eru; yet I think it mostly has to do with the nature of the ring itself, which always betrayed its master. Bilbo was the only one who came off RELATIVELY unharmed, unless you want to count Sam.
One by one, topic by topic, video by video, you illuminate Tolkien's world for us all 🙏🙏🙏
*we still rely on oaths predominatly today too.* put police under oaths before signing an arrest warrant. put wittnesses under oath to testify. make judges and politicians swear an oath - and they can be punished for things others who did not swear such an oath would not be. ive always found oaths facinating. gr8 vid this one.
I think the issues is that oaths are broken more often these days.
@@PriyaPans for sure. it is the question of oversight & enforcement. but if you have ever taken an oath: there is a difference. you know you are doing something you explicit swore not to do. there is no grey area or slipery slope. but there has to be more.
and it is hard to see a system where teh pendulum of who wates the watches doesnt always move until everything falls.
but oaths and separation of powers is all we have.
@@JCResDoc94 very nicely put
Do a video on the foresight of the Wise, the Elves and the Dunedain! It plays such a fascinating role in the philosophical mechanics you’re talking about. Does “not by the hand of man shall he fall” *create* the fate of the Witch-King? Is “If you pass the doors of Moria, beware!” the same kind of foresight as “we may yet meet again on the field of battle, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us”? Y’know, how does the reading of Fate work in the legendarium? Are these visions of things that will be, or only of things that may be?
“There are forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.” - Gandalf (film quote)
It was said among the Rohirrim that "no enemy has yet taken the Hornburg" as long as Rohan defends it.
Yet saruman’s forces almost did it
@@jakealter5504 almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Shadowofchaos 89 true. I’m just pointing out that the uruk hai army would’ve actually won if not for Gandalf’s reinforcements, the uruk hai had already broken the outer wall by blasting it
@@jakealter5504 you just gave me an idea. What if Rohan lost at Helms deep?
Shadowofchaos 89 the free people would’ve been screwed
Fantastic video, really interesting and very well discussed.
That's one of the most interesting videos on the channel, period.
A video about Gandalf and Thrain would be nice. Or other similar types of character relationships. More in depth videos about battles. More region spotlight on places and objects even. Love your videos mellon! Thank you for another Tolkien fix! ✨🧙
There are many parallels in Tolkien's work to Norse Mythology and the weight and importance an oath and curse has is one just like many names of dwarves especially. If you like the professor's work you will like The Poetic Edda of Norse Mythology and Saga of the Volsung's.
I am more of a freewill person. Many of the Silmarillion curses are actions that the persons themselves do. There's no invisible hand forcing them to do anything. Like with Turin. So I will always interpreted in-uinverse curses as foretellings of what is going to happen rather than any outside agenda playing chess. The only exception to this I find is with Niniel and Glaurung, where he forced the spell on her that screwed her the rest of her life over
Great video. This discussion could go on for hours.....
It is obvious Tolkien believed in the power of of oaths, dooms and curses. I think he thought oaths would become self fulfilling prophecies, largely based on the intent of the maker of the oath. If the intent was to do harm then the the harm would often exact a cost from the oath taker. If the oath was to support a friend or ally then the promise of the oath must be fulfilled or the oath breaker would suffer. Even now in our own world taking an oath and breaking it has consequences.
In the future, could you do a video on the Maiar of Middle Earth? You already did one for the Valar after all.
Absolutely, thank you for the reminder!
In years past a man was only as good as his word. Keeping oaths were paramount to a man's good name and reputation. This predates christianity. Words were believed to have power. To speak falsely and with conceit cast a dark shadow on a man's character in the eyes and mind of those around him.
I agree, and across cultures. There is something immensely powerful about a promise: that promise holds you. Which is why no promise should ever be made lightly. ... I our time people have forgotten that and we are diminished as a result.
@@Anna-tj7mp all to often, over the years, I have heard the phrase " promises were made to be broken". Never was this so. You are so right in saying that falsehoods have diminished men. We have indeed become petty in spirit.
@@vixendoe2545 you only have to look at what leaders used to look like, what people really respect (exemplified by Aragon, and eomer and others in tolkeins works) and what leaders look like now.
There aren't many similarities at all. Those wonderful qualities are becoming lost (respect, mercy, gallantry, responsibility, etc)
Edit: I don't think I have to say anything specifically about how leaders currently do or don't keep their oaths and words true.
Came here to learn more about Tolkien’s work.
Stayed for the philosophy lesson.
To add to my other comment, you might find this quote from Hume’s Enquiries interesting in the context of Illuvatar: “Allowing, therefore, the gods to be the authors of the existence or order of the universe; it follows, that they possess that precise degree of power, intelligence, and benevolence, which appears in their workmanship; but nothing farther can be proved, except we call in the assistance of exaggeration and flattery to supply the defects of argument and reasoning.”
This makes me wonder about the distinction between 1) what we know about Illuvatar through his actions and 2) what do we know about Illuvatar through the stories told about him, the assumptions people have about Illuvatar, etc.
To push this a little further, what are the dimensions of Illuvatar that Tolkien wrote that aren’t experienced by anyone in Middle Earth and so are rationally untouchable to the people of Middle Earth?
And has anyone talked about Tolkien’s place in Middle Earth? If we are to take the cosmology of Middle Earth seriously, then not only should Tolkien’s relationship to Middle Earth be considered, but also our own own cosmology’s relationship to Middle Earth.
I have a question.
In "The Fellowship of the Ring," Frodo is said to dream of mountains he'd never seen. Later, at Tom Bombadil's house, Frodo dreams of the Sea and his eventual journey to the Uttermost West. He sort-of forshadows Sméagol's fate, as you mentioned. In "The Return of the King," when Frodo is going to journey with the Elves and Bilbo, he tells Sam the names of five of his children, and says there may be more he "can't see." He says he'll be the Mayor as many times as he wishes, and the most famous gardener; he says he'll be the one to somehow ensure that the memory of Sauron and the Third Ag are carried on. We know all of this came to happen to Sam eventually.
My question is if Frodo had the gift of foresight. I know it sounds unlikely, since foresight is somehow connected to magic, and Tolkien mentions that Hobbits have no connections to magic, but it does seem he can predict many events, concerning himself and his companions, especially.
Ayeee Great topic. Thanks man
Great video and very informative I learned alot thanks.👏👏😁❤❤
I was glad to see that you dealt with the doom (or geis) that Frodo laid on Smeagal at the black gate ( and renewed at least twice more, as I recall). My impression is that this was binding, since Frodo used the power of the Ring, although Frodo may not have fully understood what he was doing. In any case, he did give Smeagol a choice between forgoing the Ring or being destroyed, and so didn't violate Smeagol's free will. Of course, this was a terrible choice for Smeagol, either way, but isn't that often the way with really important choices?
As regards determinism/compatabilism, I am a Molinist about our reality. Molina was a catholic counter-reformer who postulated that God knows not only what you will do, but what you would have done in any other set of circumstances you might have been in. God therefore arranges the circumstances such that your free action (balanced against the free actions of all other agents) brings about an ultimate result that accords with His will.
I don't know if Tolkien was a Molinist, but he may well have been, and I find myself perfectly at ease with the idea that the actions and counterfactuals of the Valar and creatures of middle earth were foreknown to Eru Ilúvatar, and that He arranged the events so that they acted freely, but His purposes were finally realized.
Regardless, this was a fantastic video on a highly absorbing topic. It made my day.
Nice work dude thanks
9:10-10:37 Wow. I have read a not little amount of speculation conserning the fate of the One Ring, in which prevailing idea is that Frodo (and possibly no-one) could not fulfill his quest of free will and Eru's involvement was eventually needed, forcing perhaps the point of Original sin (as is noted in the comment section).
Nowhere, however, have I seen anyone pointing out that Frodo indeed laid a curse on Sméagol, which was later fulfilled to the letter. Congratulations on finding this profound detail!
You should do a video on Ælfwine, the last man to find the straight road, and the future of middle earth as “our world”. I’ve always been fascinated by the references Tolkien makes to this, of Arda as an alternative mythology for the real world.
See here, for instance: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ælfwine
Oaths do have power in the real world. I have sworn three in my life so far, one was foolish, so far I have kept them all, and in response to my keeping these three oaths, my life has been blessed. Even in the case of the foolish one that I made. Make that four. Good video, thanks.
Interesting stuff as always
Always loved this concept, I think the best phrasing for curses I've heard is "demonic oppression".
Awesome video...Could you please make a video about creation of moon and sun(in silmarillion)?
Since reading the Silmarillion, I was filled with wonder, as to what mr. Tolkien actually meant by "doom", and as I finished reading and moved on to the LOTR trilogy, I knew that the DOOM he spoke of was merely "fate". The way he wrote it however was such that made us readers think that it was such a scary thing. The doom of the noldor for example. But then look at Beren and Luthien. Their doom turned out rather nice. And the doom of Earendil was something that middle earth would seek forever more.
Just wanna make a point I haven’t seen mentioned in any of your or the other LotR lore UA-camrs’ channels (all of which are high and excellent and I truly account you all as Tolkien scholars of great lore) -
Y’all. The Valar were not supposed to rule the decisions of the Elves. They loved them, and like Gandalf they were only ever moved to their dominance by pity and that love, but they went from an emphatic invitation to the West to refusing to let them leave the West. I’m not saying Feanor wasn’t a hothead who damned an entire race of Elves for three-plus ages of Arda. I’m just saying, remember that Those who dwell beyond the Sea took a couple of key missteps, and at each such turn it was when they decided that ‘allowing’ the Elves their autonomy was against the best interests of the Elves.
ETA: They did seem to repent of such steps during the Third Age. Their marching orders to the Istari, their subtle influencing of the end of the War of the Ring (none of us disagree with Elrond and Gandalf’s assertions that they wouldn’t take the Ring because it belongs to Middle-Earth, right)...evidently revoking the Ban of the Noldor for Galadriel and Elrond: all of it seems to point to greater wisdom in later days as the Children of the One were all gifted with that ability to grow and change and learn, albeit at different speeds over different periods of time.
Thanks Champ, you are a beast. I enjoy the language that you choose.
Thanks Jerold, I really appreciate that! I try my best to choose language that best articulates the Professor and his works!
I really hope you do a video on Shelob and the spiders of Middle Earth. I think they're the only race/creatures that you haven't covered.
I'd love to see more philosophy videos on this channel!
Wow! A very interesting topic, Yoystan.
I think there are certain aspects about dooms and curses that do not violate free will. It seems logical that free will and determinism are incompatible. Eru is the author of Eä's history. Just because Eru knows what will happen, does not mean Eru caused it or it could not happen any other way. Free thinking individuals have the benefit of agent causation, being the uncaused first cause of an action. This is called libertarian free will. This seems especially relevant when dealing with the race of Men. Though both Children of Iluvatar, let's not forget that Elves and Men are fundamentally different. The Doom of Men can not be undone, and there was never any question that it would be fulfilled. Like Yahweh in the Bible created man "in the image of God", so Eru created man in his image; if Eru is the uncaused first cause of the universe, then Men would possess the same capacity. The Doom of Mandos spoken to the Noldor was also fulfilled, but it is hard to imagine any other outcome given the situation the exiles put themselves in. It's a pronunciation--a warning of sorts--of what will happen given decisions that have already been made.
To oaths, I think evoking the name of Eru brings a higher power into the contract. Iluvatar, being a perfect being, must see the oath fulfilled or justice be done on the oath breaker. Even if Eru was not mentioned in the promise of Smeagol to Frodo, I think the situation still warranted divine intervention. Think about it: the Valar aided in ridding the world of Morgoth, and Eru intervened by removing the threat of Numenor. Would it not be reasonable that Eru act again to stop Sauron, causing also the demise of Gollum who had bound his fate to that of the Precious? Being a fantasy story, of course there are also elements of magic to oaths, dooms and curses that should not need reasonable explanations. "The Children of Hurin" is full of cases that cannot be attributed to predictions or a logical sequence of events. But now we've entered a different realm of discussion and I don't want to be a bother. Great video, my friend!
Final note if I have your attention. Would you consider talking about death, resurrection, and the undead in Tolkien's work? I think there's a lot of interesting stuff there.
The important moral here is you better damn well keep your promises or you'll never be allowed to rest again until you get the okay to do so.
Well done
I thought Melian said something about a doom on that a Man will be in doriath...Or Something like that!!!
Thanks for this interesting discussion about Oaths, Dooms, and Curses...Until a Livestream, At A Time I can Make *Screams and Yells in Happiness* Thank You Mellon I can Make It...Marion Baggins Out...Going to watch a series Finale soon!!!
YEAH MAN!!! Can't Wait!!!
Glad you liked the video Marion! I'm excited to talk to you during the livestream next week! Enjoy the Clone Wars finale (I assume that is the one you're watching, maybe Westworld)! Either way, enjoy!
@@MenoftheWest Thanks Mellon, and You are correct!!! Also, how did you know?!!! I was a Clone Wars fan, a few years before I got into Tolkien!!! I am Glad I will be talking with you, because my other friends aren't responing to me...But my UA-cam friends are!!!
Marion Baggins I’m sorry to hear about that about your other friends. But I feel like there is a lot of overlap between the fandom for LOTR and the fandom for Star Wars! I myself love Star Wars and am excited to see how this last episode plays out!
Tinuviel, may the 4th be with you, Mellon. JRR and Star Wars are a perfect match. Stay safe. Just watched a guilty pleasure ‘The Princess Bride’. Lol. Stay safe.
@@MenoftheWest I have seen it...Is all I will say!!!!
I liked that the oath of feanor could have been met if his two sons hadn't possessed the silmarils with greed and just followed them West.
Allowing one to be opened for it's light to regrow the two trees leaves one each.