Just one more thing before I shut up, when I first started playing we could not afford all the fancy stuff. My group (there were 6 of us) used to go into my back yard where there was an old concrete driveway that led nowhere. We would use chalk to draw a dungeon on it and use rocks, bits of glass and sticks, well you get the point, for everything. Those were some of the longest and most fun games I can remember playing. It was all in your mind. All we needed was a charter sheet and a pocket full of dice. Well and some chalk. Play on folks and just have fun like it was meant to be.
In Germany complex maps are a rarity. A lot of games are done without miniatures. The most you get is a map of the dungeon, so everyone knows how it looks and maybe a marker for where you are, but thats usually it. Everything is done with making it up und telling it. And while i think that nice tables are cool, its always inflexible. A table with miniatures always limits the game to some degree as it conditioned players to not imagine the location and fixes their minds to the stuff on the table, and not what could maybe believably be there.
@ Bob: you beat me to it! My group use to meet at the public library, with rule books, dice, and cha sheets... We didn't even use minis in the beginning...
@@jmmartin7766 amateurs, me and my friend didn't even use, rulebooks! I didn't know the basic rules existed at the time and in my country, D&D books were hard to come by. So I made up a version of """""""Dungeons and Dragons""""""" and played it with my friend. I was the """""""DM""""""". We used a piece of paper and pencil for a """""""map""""""" and """""""character sheets""""""". It was one of the most fun I've ever had.
@@navidryanrouf441 Unfortunately, the generations that have come after us have ceded their imaginations and creativity, more and more, to the confines and control of computers! And, yeah, you're right-- D&D, played with nothing more than pencil, paper, dice, and maybe a rule book, was some of the best memories I have!
I commented this with my dad, an engineer, and he said that there is an actual Engineer's Scale that best represents the actual distance of items from the perspective of miniature men, like Lego men for example. Apparently, I would not use a grid for a battle map because it feels more organic in a closeup scale, but I did download bitmaps of grids that are CAMPAIGN maps, like the map of the entire European continent of the Middle Ages for example. The reason is that I feel grids make more sense on a grand campaign scale if you want to include history in your fantasy setting because the world is round and straight lines are almost never the fastest lines when traveling through terrain, or even at sea. Because honestly, after playing Empire: Total War, I did notice that sailors back then had to deal with wind currents and directions just as hikers and horsemen had to deal with terrain. Even primitive galleys in Ancient Rome had masts on them and so wind still mattered. I cross-referenced Warhammer Fantasy with D&D and found similarities in battle rules. Both games feature three phases in a single attack: an attack roll, a damage roll, and a saving throw. I did so to figure out logically and mathematically how a single D&D hero would battle a Warhammer unit. Here's what I came up with: AC=10+WS+AO where AC is an individual soldier's armor class, WS is the Weapon skill of the unit, and AO stands for attack of opportunity, meaning the amount of individual soldiers that are within a specific range that would provoke an attack of opportunity to the hero. AC=10+10*Dist/MaxR where AC is again Armor Class, Dist means distance of the unit, and MaxR means Maximum Range. A Hero has to roll dice against one of the top formulas to hit a unit. When damaging the unit, all that the Hero has to do is roll the damage die against the unit's toughness score. WS=AC-10 where WS stands for Weapon Skill of the Hero that the unit would have to roll against if in melee and AC is the Hero's Armor Class. Units attacking in ranged mode would not worry about this as their Ballistics Skill would apply. Subtracting the amount of successful hits from the Hero's Armor Class would bring about the Hero's Toughness Score, which the unit would later roll to wound. I guess every unit would have at least two hirelings among it to serve as that unit's upkeep, like I think a Blacksmith and a Chef for example as the two most essential hirelings of the group. I think a Maid may also apply as the third essential hireling to make up for the upkeep. This of course would be for your typical infantry unit to cook big meals for it, to supply and equip it for battle, or to clean up after its mess in the Barracks. However, in addition to those essential hirelings, you might need other hirelings according to which type of unit it is. Cavalry, for example, might need animal tenders to look after the mounts. Artillery units might need craftsmen or engineers to manage special equipment that blacksmiths wouldn't be able to handle by themselves. Think logically and historically what hirelings are needed to care for each individual unit, and the consequences for not providing the care that unit needs.
@@MonguinAssassin Aye, tehats how its done most of the time in Germany. I have only very rarely seen tables for PnP with grids. We most of the time use measures and play it like in wargaming. Its a lot more organic. The campaign maps are often done in grids as the scales are so small that one can really get bogged down with measures.
@@theexchipmunk Hexagonal grids? The grid-map-board thing I was talking about was this: 1.bp.blogspot.com/-Iag5hxvcfv8/Uj3ty_TPNsI/AAAAAAAABLs/1HnVOGt1zOc/s1600/HexEurope.png
The first time I was introduced to D&D, we had no minis, no grid. We had nothing but our imagination and an AMAZING DM. Honestly, it was the best campaign(s) I've ever played. It wasn't until years later that I even learned about grids.
Crazy idea that's literally just come to me. Drill a small hole in the front of your minis' bases, and thread a piece of string or similar through that extends the distance that character can move. Tie it in place and the mini has a permanent measuring tool. Not for everyone, no doubt, but some may find it handy.
I prefer using the non-grid setup for two reasons. 1. If I am going to put in all the hours and money to make some nice looking tiles, I'll be damned if I am going to draw out grids on everything that will ultimately clutter the play space making the area hard to read. I want the eye candy to be exactly that.. 2. The biggest reason for me is immersion.. As a dungeon master, it is my job to create the world my players live in. I try my best to limit outside interference from breaking the feel and flow of my game. As a player and a DM, I have found myself fixating on the technicality of grid play and found that it could at times diminish the experience and ambiance of the game environment. (Some folks don't mind grids and I respect that) I just don't like messing with them when playing D&D. I have a large group I cater to. (20 to 25 players twice weekly on average) If I can simplify where I can then I am happy to do so. I take great care in setting up my game space so that it feeds into our story. Lighting, room decor, on-cue sound effects, Mini fog machine, background music and even the smell of the room are all tools I employ to further our play environment. In regards to movement we operate on a simple scale that is easy to visualize. The tile is set at 3 x 3. 1 inch = 5 ft. Easy fix for me and simple for the players to remember. My players appreciate the simplicity of it and have more time to enjoy. That's my humble opinion anyway! lol
That intro is the funniest ever! Hell, in my world the gods themselves would just declare an area without a grid THE FORBIDDEN ZONE WHICH MUST NEVER BE SPOKEN OF! :)
I haven't been gaming all that long - just a couple years- but my DMs have all been die hard grid fans. They did offer me the chance to run a campaign after one of theirs ended... so I may try to bust out some gridless terrain. I was toying with it when I first saw DM Scotty make some, but you really solidified exactly what I believe to be true. it can be distracting to see grid lines on organic terrain, but very fitting in a "man-made" environment. Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
I have been playing since the early 90 's when AD&D was out. We used to use graph paper for character sheets and combat. A few times we even just penciled dots across a drawing on notebook paper. I think it was 3rd edition that really started marrying D&D to the grid. Since then 5th is really the only version I think that hasn't directly required a grid in the movement rules. I'm a Pathfinder DM, and we still primarily focus on the grid in the rules. However, my group adapted quickly to gridless when I introduced it with my terrain. I made 5 - inch popsicle stick measure sticks with black lines marking every inch. That way players could just set their mini at the end of the stick. No one had a problem with it... except the one player who started playing in 3rd edition. They looked at me like I turned into Heath Ledgers Joker and burned his world. He still plays, and everyone has gotten so used to gridless that we can literally have half a map gridded and half ungridded, but he still looks at me with a stupefied mix of anger, confusion, and I'm pretty sure a little dab of hate. Some people bend, others break.
Yes! This was a helpful comment. I've been DMing a new group for the first time with 3D and 2D terrain. All the stuff I made has had a grid. My group consists of Skyrim and Baldur's gate players, so I thought a grid was better for them to digest battle and movement. But back when I used to play 2nd edition it was all theater of the mind...no grid, no minis, nothing. Just dice and character sheets. I could craft so much more without a grid. How do I start introducing my players to grid less? Should i talk to them or should I just start introducing some new terrain without the grid and improvise?
ddesouz6 I can tell you how I did it. I know my players well enough that I knew they were going to have serious trepidation. So I just threw down the terrain after making them roll initiative. I knew they would be nervous. So I made it so that they didn't have time to sit there and think about it. Figured it was like that nervousness everyone has looking at a scary ride for the first time. It's worse when they have time to mull it over. Just make sure you have the sticks ready, or whatever measuring tool you are using. Be ready if any players has any AoE that you are prepared for that too. I find measuring cones with a stick is pretty easy. Just put one end at point of origin and turn the stick 90 degrees. Circles, spheres, and cylinder areas can be measured by using your stick like a radius measure, but I've since picked up a compass with inch measurements. Line attacks are stupid easy. Be sure to know how you as a DM are going to handle it. If you sound like you know what you are doing they are going to be much less nervous, even if you don't. :)
Great advice! I'm definitely going to try this. I'm not to worried about the spells. Not to long ago I picked up a set of plastic spell templates. When I cut them out it will be east for the players to visualize AoE spells. Thanks!
Great advice. I'm an old school player as well and I can tell you get it. Grid, no grid--If this is a solid factor in the fun of the game session then there are more things to be concerned about than grids. Safe travels adventurer!
I’ve played both ways, and love it both ways. One thing I will point out for those who agree with some of his points but don’t feel their “ready” to play off the grid or have players who are too focused on combat mechanics to let “run free” on a gridless map where they might try to fudge their movement, I have two recommendations: 1. hex grids. They match natural terrain a bit better than square grids and far fewer situations where you would need to figure out diagonals for movement (5e fudges diagonals out of the game entirely, but for 3e, homebrew, or other systems that try to stick to Euclidean geometry it can really save time not having to worry about how many feet is 5*sqrt(2)). 2. Smaller Grids. If you use quintile rule graph paper, for example, with normal sized minis, you are essentially getting 5 overlapping 1” grids for the price of one. Almost as easy to check distances, just 1 square = 1 foot instead of 5, and gives a bit more freedom for movement while being easier to draw/build natural-looking terrain over the top.
I've been gaming sine the 70's. In most of our RPG adventures, the tape measure comes out occasionally, but unless it's a question of short, medium, or long range for a weapon...or "Do I need to run to engage in melee this round?; we generally eyeball it and keep the pace of the story going...good vid, buddy...would like to see a tour of your game table some day...homemade or purchased ?...Jim
When I first started playing (in 1979), we all had miniatures that represented our character. Our only way of knowing where we were in relationship to the dungeon was either a hand drawn map on graph paper by one of the party - at the DMs insistence. Each square on the graph paper was 10 feet (or 10 yards outside). We used the description of the areas around us to imagine where we were. The minis never moved from where they sat on the table. We used our imagination and I've never been a fan of using minis for movement. Our group has slowly evolved to using a battle mat for large group battles just so we can see where every one is, but that's about it for grids. I've gotten some feedback about using doors, chests, and such to enhance the vision of the area for players where I'm DMing instead of being a PC.
I've played plenty of Mage Knight miniature gaming back before HeroClix was a thing. The game came with a nylon measuring tape in inches. It was a line of sight rule range based system. When HeroClix starter box DC Hypertime was published, it came with a grid map. When reading the rules for movement and range of powers. From square to square was one space, and from one corner to one corner of a square was also one space. The thing that my friends exploited in the game, was the diagonal range. A five inch space is five inch range, but a diagonal five space range is almost eight inches. This same friend tried to make the same idea for D&D grid system. So I use a ruler to show range, even if we are using a grid map. Great video.
I am used to working digitally for my D&D, but what I like to do is put a subtle grid. Just barely noticeable That way, you can mostly ignore it and have fluid motion, but when you need to measure for how far a character can move in a turn, you have a better reference point if you just look a little harder.
Awesome topic! I've been struggling with this in my game. Well actually internally lol! My current group consists of baldur's gate and skyrim players. When I talked them into playing I figured I'd try and craft some terrain so they would have something cool to visually aid them. Now my players are 100% stoked on d&d. The group has even grown. We've had multiple sessions, the pcs are all around 3 lvl pushing 4, and there is no stopping in site. Not only that but now I'm totally addicted to, not only crafting terrain, but crafting in general. I want to craft more; I want to craft everything. But I'm afraid I've gotten my group to accustomed to the grid. And making those damn line all the time keep slowing me down and gets to be a pain in the butt. I picked up ICRPG and was thinking of trying Hankerin's banana idea. When I played back in the day it was all theater of mind anyway, so what the hell is the big deal. I haven't even spoken to my group about this. Looking forward to seeing all the comments. Thanks for the vid
Hallelujah. You pretty much said everything I wanted to cover about gridless! I stopped using grids and calculating precise movements when I tried Dungeon World and will never go back.
I've played/DMd about ten different long campaigns and a few one shots over the years and only used models in three or four and only had a grid in one Star Wars d20 campaign where we used maps and minis from the old Star Wars Miniatures game. My DMing style uses the rules as minimally as possible to create a collaborative story so movement boils down to whatever looks reasonable at a glance. The most elegant solution for measured movement without a grid that I've used was a campaign where the DM gave us all strings with a knot at our encumbered/sneak movement speed, a knot at the normal movement speed, and a knot at sprinting speed. The knots were all painted with a color code. It was quick and easy, and it worked well for angled movements around or over things. He had old blast markers from Warhammer for spells and stuff. The grid worked fine the one time I used it, but most of the games I've played were done without minis at all so I don't find it all that useful, and it's certainly not necessary.
Great vid. I got into 40k long before D&D and so I 100% agree with your points. The grid is not a necessity, but what IS necessary is group game enjoyment. Because my group is new to the game (including me!), I am currently running the grid system. However, it's really whatever system you introduce to newbies that becomes the norm. I run grid mostly because I haven't made much terrain yet, and also because when I got into DMing I bought a dry erase grid tile set for an easy way to roll with anything I've prepped, or the players threw at me. After I get some Hotwire tools I will be better equipped! Thanks
I'm a bit late on this topic but I was playing D&D 40 years ago. All my books need to be in a museum. I've not played in about 25 years but something I used to do is for grid less play I used to make rings out of wire, stiffened rope or leather. These were in the sizes I needed for AoE effects, and movement. Very simple to use, you do something that has a AoE just drop a ring over the character and everybody sees the exact size of the effect. Need to move it will show you the limit your allowed. We would make new ones at the beginning of each adventure for those who didn't have them or had a distance change. Just a spool of colored wire, so it shows up better, and a ruler is all you need and 30 seconds to make it. Hope this helps. :)
Haven't used a grid in a over a decade, but I did invent a grid shadow stencil which cast a 1 inch grid shadow on my table when placed (or held) about 10 inches or less above the table. I have projected a 1 inch grid down onto the table using the "TRACER" projector by Autograph (taped the focus lense in place) & a piece of graph paper ( darkened the lines, skipping every other line & taped it on). It's really light weight so I could hang it from the ceiling. I used a plastic wall hook & super glued it to the projector (the hook was a peel & stick self adhesive but I glued it anyway) & then screwed a hook into the he ceiling above the table. I placed a battle mat on the table, got them lined up so the lines were parallel & adjusted the focus until the squares matched sizes. It's really not that hard. It looked really good, lined go right over terrain which looked especially cool over trees. I never actually tried to use it in a game for several reasons. First off ya gotta turn all the lights off/ close the shades to see it, basically the projector is only light source, which is bright but focused in a specific area (the battle mat). 2ndly I didn't secure the projector in place and any disturbance of the wire caused the projector to sway. 3rdly the square size distorted about 3 feet from the center of the projection. The further from the center ya go the more distorted it was. This wouldn't be a problem on most tables, but my gaming table at the time was 2 inches longer & wider than a queen size mattress. I thought was cool but it was a pain in the ass wasn't practical, which is saying a lot coming from me, I've hung mini clouds, glow in the dark star constellations above the tabl, hung landscape posters (bottom flush to the top of the table) on the way to create backgrounds. Heck I even moved the main lamp around to emulated Sun during a the time of day and year before. Hmm If I could get my hands on a buncha laser pointers , lol. My other suggestions uses a peg board. Find a peg board with holes in it placed in 1 inch grid they're fairly common. First one I got from Terrainscapes. Use the peg board as a stencil to create a grid on terrain. lay peg board over the terrain or as close as possible. Then use a different colored flock, paint, or accent etc and sprinkle them through the holes down the terrain. Terranscapes created a grass feild and then used, slightly different colored flock, little flowers, gravel, just some variation to create the grid on the the grass field. The trick is mixing up the barely detectable marks with a buncha different things. The last one is mine but inspired by Terrainscapes. Take that same hile grided peg board & hang it above the table. Then get a few those small retractable tape measures & fasten a hook on the back end of it, on the opposite side from where the tale comes out. Any wire that keeps it's shape can be used as a hook, glue it, tape it or just wrap it around it. Hang the tape measure from the holes in the peg board. Next either get some of those little tiny woman's clear plastic hair clips, or some 2 inch squares of material strong enough to hold minis. Then get some string & tie the clips or squares to the tab on the very end of the tape measure that prevents the tape from being sucked back into the casing. The squares you want to tie so they hang flat parallel to the table top, creating a surface to place minis on, you'll have to use more than one piece of string or tie multiple knots. If hanging the peg board from the ceiling is too much than you can use a net. A bit off topic but my ultimate achievement in minis was tying some magnets to a string and tying the string to the wall. I then placed a bunch of speaker magnets inside a tower model. I placed the tower on the game table so that the string on the wall when extended was just short of touching the tower, but close enough that the force of magnetic attract was string enough to keep the string suspended in mid air. I then fun tacked a Warhammer wizard fig onto the magnet tied to the string & blamo my wizard mini was levitating.
I’ve played wargames and rpgs for decades. I did one campaign a while ago on a whiteboard with a grid and dry erase marker details. Then I played the PC version of Temple of Elemental Evil which doesn’t use a grid. So next campaign I was inspired and went with the wargaming approach and just use a tape measure and a more relaxed approach. Works great.
First and foremost, thank you for the videos, the crafting inspiration and contributing to the community. It's a better place because of what you do. Regarding the subject.....as a certified gognard (playing and DMing since the 70's) , I've done both. I've found that grids lead to 'chess-like' tactical play and drags out combat and gridless combat (or pure TotM gaming) seem to encourage epic play. Templates for AoE stuff, string for movement and generally following 'rule of cool' over 'rule of books' has worked really well for us. Your group may vary and YMMV. Do what works for you and your group, knowing it may not for someone else (and that is FINE). Thanks again to BMC for the awesome. Keep it up and keep crafting.
One thing that my old DM did was just drop terrain on a battle mat. If we needed to figure out the distance over the piece of terrain, we'd just refer to the part of the mat we could see. This made it so the terrain wouldn't need to have lines when it was more outdoorsy. I hope this is good advice for sticklers for grids too :)
The whole grid system came from Wizard's of the Coast when they started with their line of D&D miniatures. I've never bought a mini from them as I prefer to use the pewter or stiff plastic minis because I used to customize them and would today as well. But the whole D&D grid system for indoors and her for out door areas came from DMs mapping for a home brew campaign, or redrawing the provided maps from the modules so secret doors & other DM only knowledge was kept from the players using the map to navigate the dungeon.
I like when tiles without grids are use for much what you said how it brings us back to the roots of theater of the mind. I've knowtessed when given gridded tiles my players norrow their vision and start asking, "Is there something hidden on this space? No! What about this one?" Or completely stop talking all together and play it as rigged and structured like chess. But when I provide tiles without grids. Players start asking more questions becoming a little more analytical. Questions become less narrow and more extended to the hole area. When one player becomes more talkative most follow.
I've been on the fence re: grids for months now and this vid, actually, gave me the push that I needed to do what I've long wanted to do. Thanks, Jeremy...this video was the final nail in the coffin for grids in our campaign.
this cave is still gridded but the tiles are much larger. i am now in love with the idea of bigger tiles. it saves so much time no more will my players need to count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. instead just 1, 2. or just 1 if i'm feeling adventurous
I use gridless caves and outdoors and use grids in tiled floor dungeons and castles. Wherever it makes sense to use a grid I do, but my group switches back and forth multiple times a night. We barely even think about it anymore.
That's why I always hire urchins ( from the local urchins Union I might add) to always run ahead of me chalk in hand drawing grids . As a bonus the little tykes often set off any traps meant for my harm or get roughed up by vandals meaning to do me all kinds of bodily ills ( *shudder*) ( with the added bonus of no longer needing to compensate the little scamps😁👍). 😃
I like the grid where it makes sense. I don't use it for outdoors and caves. I am a stickler for game play so if a PC or monster moves 30 feet that's 6"". Your tiles are 3" so moving straight from one side to another is 15 feet but not from corner to corner. That's a bit more than 4" or 20 feet. So for me a corner to corner move from on tile to the nest puts a PC or monster in the middle of the second tile. Oh and I loved the intro :-)
I always found the fixation on the grid somewhat odd. I only use it as a help to eyeball distances (3 straight is 2 diagonal) Also especially on this tileset you made, you still have a grid! it's just bigger. You can easily eyeball the smaller grid (corners, middle of the edge, center)
I started DMing february, this year. My first contact with d&d. No grid, never! From the first day, i picked some wooden sticks for BBQ and painted them b/w every inch, done. Best decision ever!
Not my account. (My dad's.) All my life, we played MAGUS (a derivative of ADnD) and later DnD 3rd ed, without visual aids. No mat, no minis, nothing. Whenever I had to put out a visual description of a situation, I just drew a few lines on a piece of paper and numbered a few circles, telling my players: these are the goblins, those are your characters, and that chocolate smear is the pond from which the demon emerges. Whenever the issue of movement came up, we used a simple method. Whatever the storyteller says goes. It worked perfectly. My player would tell me he is charging the demon through the massed goblins, I would tell him two of them get an attack of opportunity on him and we worked that out. My player would tell me, she throws a spell at the goblin chief, I would tell her the dwarf and a goblin is in the way, and she decided to move, so I told her her move ends beside the wall and now she is clear to cast, roll concentration for casting on the move. The player would tell me, he charges alongside the warrior, I would tell him he is too far away. So he would tell me, he is charging the goblins instead. Fine by me. No aids, no measurements, hilarious encounters, lots of fun. When I introduced a grid of some sorts to my group in the form of a predrawn map and used markers and tokens to represent objects of interest, they did not like it. Not at all. It took away from the game of imagination. However it is just how we play around in Hungary. Poor people make do with whatever they can. There are pros to not using aids. First off, cheap. Second, the imagonation is the most versatile thing. You want to start a barfight? No terrain? Never even needed it. Last three dungeons were caves, all three were different. Ice, earthen, mine whatever. No need for expensive terrain. Your character died? You can roll up one right away, no need to hunt for a new miniature. However, there is a great pro to using miniatures and well-made terrain. It keeps players focused and their imagination will be driven by what they see on the table. The grid however doesn't add, but take from the drama. It makes time unrealistic. Playing without the grid made the action flowing without changing anything about the turn mechanic. You just could or couldn't do things. Simple. Things were driven by description and thus people imagined the flow of battle as a constant thing, sometimes forgoing even initiative or order of action for the sake of the drama. Yes, it is chaotic, sometimes unfair, but with good players and storytellers, hellishly rewarding. Final however: I do plan on playing on terrain the next time I recruit a group. I plan on using miniatures too, heck, I am already scratchbuilding and collecting. But I'll try to preserve the drama without grid and being liberal with the rules. I strongly suggest deciding what kind of game do you play. Boardgamish or dramatic. The former can benefit from a grid and strict ruling. Edit: spell effects were handled in a similar manner. Imagine, decide, go with it. Can't decide, roll the dice. This free method made magic a bit more realistic. One time I was rollin a mage and my character was attacked in the middle of casting. No aids to tell me, we are in adjacent squares, my enemy was just there, attacking me. Same information, different interpretation. I lit him up with the spell, and the storyteller told me my enemy lit me up too. I think it wouldn't cross his mind if this particular enemy was a token a few millimeters away from a token representing me.
I started playing D&D in 1980, at the age of 12. We barely had miniatures and trees and such lifted from our HO scale railroads. We used a tape measure and a ruler as needed. As much as I love building and playing rpg's and wargames with terrain, there is, in my opinion and experience, a loss of "suspension of belief" with an enforced grid. Even without a grid to guide them in a setting that would not contain a grid, players are going to get an "eye" or "feel" for distance and make more and more accurate calls on their perceived movement and ranged combats/actions. You are spot on, sir, spot on. Besides, that tree is probably 10 game feet from the orc, and I am pretty sure I can make the shot. Pretty sure......
It all just depends on what kinda DM your are and what kinda players you have Each group should just play the way that they enjoy most, this goes for pretty much every aspect of the game^^
I like gridless play, utilizing a few flexible architectural rulers and what I call the D4 of Doubt, which I use to resolve reach/range disputes that are really too close to call without argument.
My party is hard core min/max player's that love combat and would even cheat movement if they could so I must watch it closely. Now I do War Game so I use the string if I don't have a grid. I also have pre cut plexiglass for spells like fireball or color spray vary handy. So all in all if your group is big RP people ya who cares no grid but if they want to test there combat powers in TPK War I can see why you feel you need it still.
We also only role play combat lol so if We were short on movement we mite come up with out of the box thinking. Combat can be the movie you want it to be shield sliding down steps to get more move wile shooting there bow lol.
Well done! Grid or gridless; both are fine. I played A&D so of course we mapped on graph paper. So, even today's 1/2' grid compared to what we used to do back them is better. We used to have minis but never functionally used them which was...kinda dumb, right? However, terrain adds so much to the game. Not all of it and there is still plenty of room for sessions that are all theater of the mind. Terrain helps everyone visualize and, just like you pointed out, use a ruler! Simple stuff really and string is also a great idea. Terrain brings the game to life! It adds a 3-dimensional element that 2D just can't get you. It's also damned fun to build. Tiles, walls, buildings, building fronts, boats, wagons, furniture for an inn, market shops, cobblestone road tiles, trees, tents, and cave terrain. These are all the things I've built in the last year and each one was just plain fun to think out and make. Now, not everyone at every table necessarily likes to build and that's fine. I've learned a lot in the last year. This channel along with DMScotty and Wyloch lead the way in my humble opinion. As always, thanks for sharing!
the models vs game pieces remarks you made were absolutely correct. We want our game pieces to be immersive for immersions sake. You were spot on. Great end cap.
You probably already know this, but in case any of your viewers/readers don't: Fabric/sewing supply stores will often have bendable rulers. They're for measuring the distance around curves in garments to see if you have enough trim, piping, or whatever. Great for figuring out non-linear movement.
I've just recently started watching your videos, and most of the ones I've watched are from 2019... Stumbled upon some from 2017 and I'm laughing A LOT with these intros. Great content man, great content.
Hi, im barely start mastering D&D with minis. My star player complains about that i slow down the sinergy of the game. you have help me a lot! thank you!
It's actually a hole another ball game with a map compared to no map. There strategies and attack formations with the map. With out it it's more of in your mind. Really it's if you want it more of a borad game or more of a mind game
I mean, if you build all your terrain in set sizes (like these 3x3 squares), you can just imagine the grid on each 3x3 tile without needing to physically have them. Most people aren't so stupid they'll freak out about a lack of a grid lol
I've been in a group on D&D for about five years and I don't think we've ever used a grid. We do have some house rules to make this easier, such as leniency when it comes to proximity and we don't use reactions or tactics such as surrounding an opponent. We've never had the space or money for the amazing stuff created on this channel, and one day I'd love to, but I think keeping it in the imagination can be really freeing. We occasionally use maps drawn on a white boards but they are never drawn to scale, they are more to give a basic visual of more complicated areas and we use whatever is available to represent our characters (currently Discworld pewter miniatures, but different colored d6 or meeple work just as well). For battles we very rarely place a 'mini' for enemies, we just individually keep track of who we were attacking, then if another player attacks a distracted enemy they get advance etc. Edit: We do have a large group (4 to 7 players depending on the week) so it would be difficult for us to use a grid without constantly climbing over each other lol
as a dm grids make life so much easier, area of effect spells, multiple enemies, Chase scenes....i can't imagine running a horde of orcs and have to measure out their movements each time.
There are actually specific chase scene rules in the books dude, you're not intended to measure everybody's individual movement, check em out. To me grids make chase scenes boring? How do you narrate that, if at all?
As a 40k warhammer player, loved the video. Not a fan of grids, personally find the visualization of the game board or terrain more immersive without the grid.
Personally I find the idea of a grid to be weird :D We came from things like 40k and WHFB so if we have to, then we measure with a ruler or tapemeasure. Most commonly we just do stuff and on occasion the DM will say, 'No, you can't move that far... *sigh*,' and just tells us where we can move to. Of course even that is fairly arbitrary and unmeasured.
"And their terrain is often kicking our terrain's ass" You heard it from him, not me! Lol, I don't really play RPGs anymore, as I am primarily a wargamer, but as a guy who makes a lot of wargame terrain, you have nothing to be ashamed of. I follow yours and many others (wyloch, scotty, etc) for inspiration for wargame terrain. But I do like all of what you said in this video.
I don't know if this has been said, but there are templates out there for area of effect spells. You can also use the tables in the DMG. Example your Wizard casts Fireball into a 20'x20' room, how much of the room is engulfed in flame? Or he casts it down the corridor, centered on an enemy, 10' radius around that creature is filled with flame.
I'm only just getting back into D&D but when I used to play it many years ago we never worried about distance or a grid we just said what made sense and went from there. Of course we never had cool terrain, we just had mostly unpainted pewter miniatures on a piece of paper with some lines drawn where the walls were. That or pennies or dice for markers for characters and monsters. Wow times have changed!
As someone who originally came from wargaming (WH40K) into the RPG scene, I find it funny that people don't realized how easy it is to bust out a measuring tape and get accurate distance. If people can do it with 100+ minis in a game with a complex set of distance rules in the meta, you can definitely do it with a few PC's and NPC's in a RPG.
With a seamstress tape measure, or a piece of string with knots in it at every inch. 1 inch then = 5 feet. This also works remarkably well for combat with flying combatants, as it gives you real distance from you to your target.
I feal like some campaigns work well with a grid and others do better without. Playing gridless does require a certain level of trust (as mentioned in the video).
Try using string for measurement, you'll get even more accurate play because then people can go at different angles or wind through a forest or other obstacles. Let that feed your OCD :-)
Sounds like you're getting too hung up on the things you're seeing before you on the tabletop instead of seeing it in your head/mind. Also playing a tabletop RPG which none of your RPG group has any miniatures for could be very helpful, because then the only person who really needs a map is the DM/GM. So many more tabletop RPG's then just D&D or pathfinder. Try some of them out and have some fun.
I use a grid, not because I think it's necessary, but because it's easy. I use papercraft terrain. I've never built a single piece out of foam and I'm not sure I ever will because there is so much awesome paper terrain out there (both 2D and 3D). I think the grids on paper terrain look good aesthetically. It might seem weird that I watch Black Magic Craft since I don't craft foam (and I am a Patreon supporter too), but I like to support cool, creative endeavors like this. I have crafted some DM Scotty bits to use with my papercraft. Since I don't craft foam, I am a big fan of the DM's game journal, so please make more of those. Also, a vid about when you use terrain and when you do theater of the mind would be cool (foe example, terrain only for encounters?)
Personally I actually also think that the grid looks "right" on all sorts of paper craft, where it doesn't on the type of terrain I use. In the same vein I find the grid to make more sense when using digital maps.
Tbh me and my friends will play online and I am lucky that I decided to use the sims to get the sets done! We haven't played yet (timezones are a bitch) but I have the advantage of the build mode having a grid over the ground to place items down. But I can also turn it off and use a chair or something as a measurement unit coz one sim is one tile, and so is the chair. Though Im using the sims just to give the guys a reference point of how the place looks and to those with sharper eyes to notice some small story telling details (like an open letter in the tavern owners room, or the statue facing a particularly weird direction, where there is a wall, or different entry ways) that might inspire them to look around without me pointing out every detail in a room, in a way testing my players passive perceptions! Pretty sure I won't have to build out every cave or forest clearing, but places like markets, homes and such could inspire an understanding of what they are working with.
Good video. I wish more people were capable of letting go of the grid. It boggles the mind that so many players insist on dumping rules like encumbrance, but have an almost OCD attachment to the grid system. I think 13th Age did a good job at replacing grid movement.
I simply just use the grid for the drawing of the maps and placing of terrain, mh players know about how much 6 inches is, i dont need to tell them to use the grid for movement if nothing else actually uses the grid like a chess board. The grid just works better for keeping proportions.
Well said. (slow clap) The terrain and minis are just avatars to the actual game, which is taking place in our minds and verbally. When I was a kid playing in the 70's and 80's we played all of this stuff out on graph paper with pencils and A LOT of erasers and we still loved it.
If you don't want grids on your 3D terrain, but still want the grid, you can always etch a grid in some plexiglass (or get a laminate grid) and just throw it over the base layer of terrain.
I know I am really late to comment on this and I agree with the concept of gridless for 90% of the playing situations. We do have one problem however .... geometry In 5e one 1" square = 5' regardless of how you traverse it, this is not an issue if we are traveling side to side parallel to a side ... however once we start to deflect off at an angle we actually change the 'real' distance for every square we move the mini. Take for instance the standard human fighter who wants to move up and attack the vile orc who has been threatening the village. On a grid the human can move diagonally 6 squares to get to the orc, that distance in inches is actually 8.5" but if we go gridless we have the issue of the fighter only moving 6" so suddenly he is 2.5" short of where he would be if there was a grid. The same issue rears its ugly head with casting spells. A fireball has a range of 150' (30 squares) but if that fireball is cast on a gridded map diagonally the range in reality becomes over 212'. I remember when I started playing in 1983, the rules were more written for ungridded combat .. spells had ranges in inches, movement was in inches etc. Unfortunately once the hobby found gridded maps the creators swapped from distances in inches only to distances in feet but each square represented a certain number of feet. Go back to distances in the rules as inches and this is all solved but far too many people would lose their mind if they had to use measuring devices instead of their fingers to count squares IMO.
I've never used grids. In fact we use a massive table and poured sand is the base land. We are able to create smooth custom hillsides. We add set pieces like you've built to enhance and show rocks.
We love it because it allows for fast changes, custom changes and I take photos for when characters return to specific terrains. It hasn't replaced foam and crafting entirely but really offers some unique landscapes. Once I even created a half sunken city that had been enveloped by a mudslide. If you try it, let me know what you think!
This may be one of my favorite videos of yours. Thanks so much for addressing this so elaborately and open-mindedly. I'm sharing this with all of my groups IRL and on Facebook. Thanks, again. P.S. Still waiting for the video on making those bridges and ladders! :D
I think the "obvious" solution is the rig up a group of laser levels and hang it from the ceiling and then you have a laser grid! Even better, if you set it up right you should be able to rotate your laser grid to line up with whatever direction you need to measure.
Old-timer here. When I played regularly in my teens and 20s, we never worried about movement rates. Realistically, a person jogging 5 mph moves 440 feet in a minute; so most people can be anywhere in a normal room in one round. Characters are always milling around and searching the place anyway, so, except when a player said his character went somewhere specific or the characters were moving as a group in "marching order", I pretty much decided where the characters were when something happened.
We play Savage Worlds ADE, and use next to nothing. We have a grid mat and some pewter LoTR minis, but they only get used for certain big fights (the baddies are just paper chits or random dice). The speed and RP of the game is wonderful with the simple rule set and no futzing with a lot of movement.
Our group does things mostly in the mind scape. Only thing we use minis for is to help represent how the formations are, who's flanking and how the group is traveling Edit: I guess mindscape could also be called theater of the mind
Speaking just as an artist and now amateur builder. Grids are not as aesthetically pleasing as open untouched terrain. I know you have recently found a new appreciation for battle mats, and by no means do I snub my nose at that. However I was drawn to this channel because the first few videos I saw had these really amazing terrains built up that looked more like an art project or stop motion movie set than a table top game. Your work showed me how far the "game" has evolved.
My homebrew makes use of ranges in lieu of a grid. You distance weapons (like siege craft, ranged weapons, reach weapons, melee weapons, and close quarters weapons. You can fire into the closer range without joining it. Joining it means you're in a cluster of at least two. It makes much more sense I think.
I’ve decided to run my next campaign without a grid and am building my dungeon tiles without a grid. It was an easy decision after playing the PC version of Temple of Elemental Evil which doesn’t use a grid and plays well. I’ll use electrical wire cut to a standard length, minus a base width, so you can put the wire against the base and move the model to the other end for a full standard move. (O---O) I suspect some issues related to base sizes though. Will probably make zones of control equal to base sizes.
I've DMed for over 30 years, and never have used a grid or mat or minis at all. Mainly because we couldn't afford all that stuff in the beginning, but then we just came to realize we didn't need it anyway. It's really just for aesthetics anyway. If we really needed some sort of visual aid it was just as easy to doodle a quick map on paper.
I plan on trying to run starfinder completely without a grid, and just going by eye and what looks right based on terrain, weapons and skill level. It wont be precise but i feel we can get it good enough. I plan to use a white board with dry erase markers to draw in the map as players reveal it so i can control FOW and i like the idea of only showing enemy pawns on the table when PC's can see them. so if they go behind cover and none of the players can see them, they will be removed from their board.
In some cases BMC, the new flood of players that 5th has brought to us may not have ever seen a war game table. They have downloaded books and Amazon shopped for dice and have never actually set foot in a game store or a comic shop. One of the players I have is like this, I brought her in to the game and all she knows of game style is mine. So when I started putting out terrain and map tiles it blew her mind. She had never see something like that.
Bravo sir. I agree, you don't use a grid for the bulk of playing (which takes place in theater of the mind), why suddenly break the feel and switch, personally It just doesn't make sense (but hey what ever floats your boat). To me grids break a lot of the descriptive narrative of the game (why would you want that) In fact, we seldom measure movement in our games, it allows for much more fluid play, if in doubt roll a check! Actually we rarely use terrain except for particularly special occasions, it's really sweet but often we find it just too limiting really. Always give your players agency and the benefit of the doubt, don't be a jerky DM! Chase scenes area a good example of where the grid completely breaks down and a series of checks runs much better (there are chase rules actually) To me D&D is not a board game. Might be different if you were playing something like say Heroquest or Warhammer Quest etc... Free yourself of the grid, you'll be glad you did!
Great Subject! I have tons of ways and also make custom tables with 2 blank grid mats and one grid top. I think you should use a grid but Jeremy is correct you don't need one to play D&D! DM John Kyff, a DM since 1977.
I can see your point regarding keeping things 'honest', but my experience is that the credit/blame for needing that 'honesty' can happen just as easily with players as with DMs. I'd argue a lot depends on when they started playing and how they approach the game, but that wanders far afield. As always, YMMV.
I DM exclusively without grid or any kind of terrain. All theater of the mind. And my players like it more. But, i keep one simple rule in mind: when in doubt, rule in favor of a player. Otherwise, you get situations where players feel "cheated". Slyflourish has a very good article about the "Tyranny of the Grid" and how to run narrative combat. slyflourish.com/guide_to_narrative_combat.html
in my opinion grids makes things much less worth it. players starts wondering if they can shoot in between lines, they wonder how many more ruling they must understand to understand how that grid works. grids keep DMs honest, if you think so then you have never played with players trying to break the game to get advantages. that's the reason i stopped using them all together, players were often trying me with half a feet distance. i'm too far. look at that mini its big and its arm reaches me 10 ft further. and all those things that makes grid not really on scale. all that made me weary, once i removed the grid those players couldn't really trick anyone anymore. also it allowed the DM and players alike into doing more cinemtic work.
Most encounters are in such close quarters that combat distance doesnt matter, which is where most players initially want it. Outside of combat players will move their character to where they want with or without grids.
I usually find that if there's more than around 5 or 6 creatures in an encounter (monsters/NPCs and PCs), then I use a grid to keep track of everything. Figuring out how far away the ranger is while making sure that the fighter is within 5 feet of the orc that the rogue wants to sneak attack while there's spell effects going on and--- Yeah there's a lot. With less than 5 things, I'll usually run theatre of the mind, but if a campaign will regularly run larger combats, I'll just stick to a grid
I've found that to add a grid to something like grass/caves that don't have one I just place + marks on the corners of the grid so that the grid is visible but not solid lines that look like they're part of the terrain itself.
An LED projector strategically mounted above your table could easily project any style grid you like over the terrain, you could also project AOE elements. I'd love to see someone try something like that.
Really interesting thoughts, though it feel like if your this rule of cool with movement terrain seems kinda unnecessary and you might as well just play full theatre of the mind. Also this is specific to some of my playgroups but even with the grid we have folks just kinda shoving there minis into space thats not there stopping in spaces or traveling through spaces there race doesn’t allow trying to scale house to get somewhere within 30ft without accounting for the climb up or down. The grid is an attempt to keep these things in check in my opinion. But I definitely feel more comfortable in approaching gridless when i have some cool maps without grids i want to use
Just one more thing before I shut up, when I first started playing we could not afford all the fancy stuff. My group (there were 6 of us) used to go into my back yard where there was an old concrete driveway that led nowhere. We would use chalk to draw a dungeon on it and use rocks, bits of glass and sticks, well you get the point, for everything. Those were some of the longest and most fun games I can remember playing. It was all in your mind. All we needed was a charter sheet and a pocket full of dice. Well and some chalk. Play on folks and just have fun like it was meant to be.
In Germany complex maps are a rarity. A lot of games are done without miniatures. The most you get is a map of the dungeon, so everyone knows how it looks and maybe a marker for where you are, but thats usually it. Everything is done with making it up und telling it. And while i think that nice tables are cool, its always inflexible. A table with miniatures always limits the game to some degree as it conditioned players to not imagine the location and fixes their minds to the stuff on the table, and not what could maybe believably be there.
@@theexchipmunk You can make everything with materials off of Amazon. DM John, DM since 1977 and I also have a channel!
@ Bob: you beat me to it! My group use to meet at the public library, with rule books, dice, and cha sheets...
We didn't even use minis in the beginning...
@@jmmartin7766 amateurs, me and my friend didn't even use, rulebooks! I didn't know the basic rules existed at the time and in my country, D&D books were hard to come by. So I made up a version of """""""Dungeons and Dragons""""""" and played it with my friend. I was the """""""DM""""""". We used a piece of paper and pencil for a """""""map""""""" and """""""character sheets""""""". It was one of the most fun I've ever had.
@@navidryanrouf441 Unfortunately, the generations that have come after us have ceded their imaginations and creativity, more and more, to the confines and control of computers!
And, yeah, you're right-- D&D, played with nothing more than pencil, paper, dice, and maybe a rule book, was some of the best memories I have!
Coming from a wargaming background, if we don't have a grid we just say 5ft = 1in on board. Thus 30ft speed would translate to 6 inch movement.
I commented this with my dad, an engineer, and he said that there is an actual Engineer's Scale that best represents the actual distance of items from the perspective of miniature men, like Lego men for example.
Apparently, I would not use a grid for a battle map because it feels more organic in a closeup scale, but I did download bitmaps of grids that are CAMPAIGN maps, like the map of the entire European continent of the Middle Ages for example.
The reason is that I feel grids make more sense on a grand campaign scale if you want to include history in your fantasy setting because the world is round and straight lines are almost never the fastest lines when traveling through terrain, or even at sea. Because honestly, after playing Empire: Total War, I did notice that sailors back then had to deal with wind currents and directions just as hikers and horsemen had to deal with terrain. Even primitive galleys in Ancient Rome had masts on them and so wind still mattered.
I cross-referenced Warhammer Fantasy with D&D and found similarities in battle rules. Both games feature three phases in a single attack: an attack roll, a damage roll, and a saving throw. I did so to figure out logically and mathematically how a single D&D hero would battle a Warhammer unit. Here's what I came up with:
AC=10+WS+AO where AC is an individual soldier's armor class, WS is the Weapon skill of the unit, and AO stands for attack of opportunity, meaning the amount of individual soldiers that are within a specific range that would provoke an attack of opportunity to the hero.
AC=10+10*Dist/MaxR where AC is again Armor Class, Dist means distance of the unit, and MaxR means Maximum Range.
A Hero has to roll dice against one of the top formulas to hit a unit. When damaging the unit, all that the Hero has to do is roll the damage die against the unit's toughness score.
WS=AC-10 where WS stands for Weapon Skill of the Hero that the unit would have to roll against if in melee and AC is the Hero's Armor Class. Units attacking in ranged mode would not worry about this as their Ballistics Skill would apply. Subtracting the amount of successful hits from the Hero's Armor Class would bring about the Hero's Toughness Score, which the unit would later roll to wound.
I guess every unit would have at least two hirelings among it to serve as that unit's upkeep, like I think a Blacksmith and a Chef for example as the two most essential hirelings of the group. I think a Maid may also apply as the third essential hireling to make up for the upkeep. This of course would be for your typical infantry unit to cook big meals for it, to supply and equip it for battle, or to clean up after its mess in the Barracks. However, in addition to those essential hirelings, you might need other hirelings according to which type of unit it is. Cavalry, for example, might need animal tenders to look after the mounts. Artillery units might need craftsmen or engineers to manage special equipment that blacksmiths wouldn't be able to handle by themselves. Think logically and historically what hirelings are needed to care for each individual unit, and the consequences for not providing the care that unit needs.
@@MonguinAssassin Aye, tehats how its done most of the time in Germany. I have only very rarely seen tables for PnP with grids. We most of the time use measures and play it like in wargaming. Its a lot more organic. The campaign maps are often done in grids as the scales are so small that one can really get bogged down with measures.
@@theexchipmunk Hexagonal grids? The grid-map-board thing I was talking about was this: 1.bp.blogspot.com/-Iag5hxvcfv8/Uj3ty_TPNsI/AAAAAAAABLs/1HnVOGt1zOc/s1600/HexEurope.png
That's actually how 40k and Warhammer fantasy are played, and probably why they used 6" as the base movement speed as well.
Very good way to explain the freedom of the non-grid play. I went to a gridless beach once. I felt foolish because I couldn't stop staring.
The first time I was introduced to D&D, we had no minis, no grid. We had nothing but our imagination and an AMAZING DM. Honestly, it was the best campaign(s) I've ever played. It wasn't until years later that I even learned about grids.
Crazy idea that's literally just come to me. Drill a small hole in the front of your minis' bases, and thread a piece of string or similar through that extends the distance that character can move. Tie it in place and the mini has a permanent measuring tool. Not for everyone, no doubt, but some may find it handy.
"The grid does not make the memories". Perfect.
I think the bases on most player figurines work since they tend to fill in the 1 inch squares precisely. So 30 feet would be 6 base lengths.
I prefer using the non-grid setup for two reasons.
1. If I am going to put in all the hours and money to make some nice looking tiles, I'll be damned if I am going to draw out grids on everything that will ultimately clutter the play space making the area hard to read. I want the eye candy to be exactly that..
2. The biggest reason for me is immersion.. As a dungeon master, it is my job to create the world my players live in. I try my best to limit outside interference from breaking the feel and flow of my game. As a player and a DM, I have found myself fixating on the technicality of grid play and found that it could at times diminish the experience and ambiance of the game environment. (Some folks don't mind grids and I respect that) I just don't like messing with them when playing D&D. I have a large group I cater to. (20 to 25 players twice weekly on average) If I can simplify where I can then I am happy to do so.
I take great care in setting up my game space so that it feeds into our story. Lighting, room decor, on-cue sound effects, Mini fog machine, background music and even the smell of the room are all tools I employ to further our play environment. In regards to movement we operate on a simple scale that is easy to visualize. The tile is set at 3 x 3. 1 inch = 5 ft. Easy fix for me and simple for the players to remember. My players appreciate the simplicity of it and have more time to enjoy. That's my humble opinion anyway! lol
You can make everything with materials off of Amazon. DM John, DM since 1977 and I also have a channel!
Lol the intro is priceless!
I agree. Very good subject! DM John, DM since 1977 and I also have a channel!
That intro is the funniest ever!
Hell, in my world the gods themselves would just declare an area without a grid THE FORBIDDEN ZONE WHICH MUST NEVER BE SPOKEN OF! :)
I haven't been gaming all that long - just a couple years- but my DMs have all been die hard grid fans. They did offer me the chance to run a campaign after one of theirs ended... so I may try to bust out some gridless terrain. I was toying with it when I first saw DM Scotty make some, but you really solidified exactly what I believe to be true. it can be distracting to see grid lines on organic terrain, but very fitting in a "man-made" environment. Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
I have been playing since the early 90 's when AD&D was out. We used to use graph paper for character sheets and combat. A few times we even just penciled dots across a drawing on notebook paper. I think it was 3rd edition that really started marrying D&D to the grid. Since then 5th is really the only version I think that hasn't directly required a grid in the movement rules. I'm a Pathfinder DM, and we still primarily focus on the grid in the rules. However, my group adapted quickly to gridless when I introduced it with my terrain. I made 5 - inch popsicle stick measure sticks with black lines marking every inch. That way players could just set their mini at the end of the stick. No one had a problem with it... except the one player who started playing in 3rd edition. They looked at me like I turned into Heath Ledgers Joker and burned his world. He still plays, and everyone has gotten so used to gridless that we can literally have half a map gridded and half ungridded, but he still looks at me with a stupefied mix of anger, confusion, and I'm pretty sure a little dab of hate. Some people bend, others break.
Yes! This was a helpful comment. I've been DMing a new group for the first time with 3D and 2D terrain. All the stuff I made has had a grid. My group consists of Skyrim and Baldur's gate players, so I thought a grid was better for them to digest battle and movement. But back when I used to play 2nd edition it was all theater of the mind...no grid, no minis, nothing. Just dice and character sheets. I could craft so much more without a grid. How do I start introducing my players to grid less? Should i talk to them or should I just start introducing some new terrain without the grid and improvise?
ddesouz6 I can tell you how I did it. I know my players well enough that I knew they were going to have serious trepidation. So I just threw down the terrain after making them roll initiative. I knew they would be nervous. So I made it so that they didn't have time to sit there and think about it. Figured it was like that nervousness everyone has looking at a scary ride for the first time. It's worse when they have time to mull it over. Just make sure you have the sticks ready, or whatever measuring tool you are using. Be ready if any players has any AoE that you are prepared for that too. I find measuring cones with a stick is pretty easy. Just put one end at point of origin and turn the stick 90 degrees. Circles, spheres, and cylinder areas can be measured by using your stick like a radius measure, but I've since picked up a compass with inch measurements. Line attacks are stupid easy. Be sure to know how you as a DM are going to handle it. If you sound like you know what you are doing they are going to be much less nervous, even if you don't. :)
Great advice! I'm definitely going to try this. I'm not to worried about the spells. Not to long ago I picked up a set of plastic spell templates. When I cut them out it will be east for the players to visualize AoE spells. Thanks!
ddesouz6 You are very welcome.
Great advice. I'm an old school player as well and I can tell you get it. Grid, no grid--If this is a solid factor in the fun of the game session then there are more things to be concerned about than grids. Safe travels adventurer!
I’ve played both ways, and love it both ways. One thing I will point out for those who agree with some of his points but don’t feel their “ready” to play off the grid or have players who are too focused on combat mechanics to let “run free” on a gridless map where they might try to fudge their movement, I have two recommendations:
1. hex grids. They match natural terrain a bit better than square grids and far fewer situations where you would need to figure out diagonals for movement (5e fudges diagonals out of the game entirely, but for 3e, homebrew, or other systems that try to stick to Euclidean geometry it can really save time not having to worry about how many feet is 5*sqrt(2)).
2. Smaller Grids. If you use quintile rule graph paper, for example, with normal sized minis, you are essentially getting 5 overlapping 1” grids for the price of one. Almost as easy to check distances, just 1 square = 1 foot instead of 5, and gives a bit more freedom for movement while being easier to draw/build natural-looking terrain over the top.
I've been gaming sine the 70's. In most of our RPG adventures, the tape measure comes out occasionally, but unless it's a question of short, medium, or long range for a weapon...or "Do I need to run to engage in melee this round?; we generally eyeball it and keep the pace of the story going...good vid, buddy...would like to see a tour of your game table some day...homemade or purchased ?...Jim
When I first started playing (in 1979), we all had miniatures that represented our character. Our only way of knowing where we were in relationship to the dungeon was either a hand drawn map on graph paper by one of the party - at the DMs insistence. Each square on the graph paper was 10 feet (or 10 yards outside). We used the description of the areas around us to imagine where we were. The minis never moved from where they sat on the table. We used our imagination and I've never been a fan of using minis for movement. Our group has slowly evolved to using a battle mat for large group battles just so we can see where every one is, but that's about it for grids. I've gotten some feedback about using doors, chests, and such to enhance the vision of the area for players where I'm DMing instead of being a PC.
I've played plenty of Mage Knight miniature gaming back before HeroClix was a thing. The game came with a nylon measuring tape in inches. It was a line of sight rule range based system. When HeroClix starter box DC Hypertime was published, it came with a grid map. When reading the rules for movement and range of powers. From square to square was one space, and from one corner to one corner of a square was also one space. The thing that my friends exploited in the game, was the diagonal range. A five inch space is five inch range, but a diagonal five space range is almost eight inches. This same friend tried to make the same idea for D&D grid system. So I use a ruler to show range, even if we are using a grid map. Great video.
I am used to working digitally for my D&D, but what I like to do is put a subtle grid. Just barely noticeable That way, you can mostly ignore it and have fluid motion, but when you need to measure for how far a character can move in a turn, you have a better reference point if you just look a little harder.
Awesome topic! I've been struggling with this in my game. Well actually internally lol! My current group consists of baldur's gate and skyrim players. When I talked them into playing I figured I'd try and craft some terrain so they would have something cool to visually aid them. Now my players are 100% stoked on d&d. The group has even grown. We've had multiple sessions, the pcs are all around 3 lvl pushing 4, and there is no stopping in site. Not only that but now I'm totally addicted to, not only crafting terrain, but crafting in general. I want to craft more; I want to craft everything. But I'm afraid I've gotten my group to accustomed to the grid. And making those damn line all the time keep slowing me down and gets to be a pain in the butt. I picked up ICRPG and was thinking of trying Hankerin's banana idea. When I played back in the day it was all theater of mind anyway, so what the hell is the big deal. I haven't even spoken to my group about this. Looking forward to seeing all the comments. Thanks for the vid
Hallelujah. You pretty much said everything I wanted to cover about gridless! I stopped using grids and calculating precise movements when I tried Dungeon World and will never go back.
I've played/DMd about ten different long campaigns and a few one shots over the years and only used models in three or four and only had a grid in one Star Wars d20 campaign where we used maps and minis from the old Star Wars Miniatures game.
My DMing style uses the rules as minimally as possible to create a collaborative story so movement boils down to whatever looks reasonable at a glance. The most elegant solution for measured movement without a grid that I've used was a campaign where the DM gave us all strings with a knot at our encumbered/sneak movement speed, a knot at the normal movement speed, and a knot at sprinting speed. The knots were all painted with a color code. It was quick and easy, and it worked well for angled movements around or over things. He had old blast markers from Warhammer for spells and stuff.
The grid worked fine the one time I used it, but most of the games I've played were done without minis at all so I don't find it all that useful, and it's certainly not necessary.
Great vid.
I got into 40k long before D&D and so I 100% agree with your points. The grid is not a necessity, but what IS necessary is group game enjoyment.
Because my group is new to the game (including me!), I am currently running the grid system. However, it's really whatever system you introduce to newbies that becomes the norm.
I run grid mostly because I haven't made much terrain yet, and also because when I got into DMing I bought a dry erase grid tile set for an easy way to roll with anything I've prepped, or the players threw at me. After I get some Hotwire tools I will be better equipped!
Thanks
I'm a bit late on this topic but I was playing D&D 40 years ago. All my books need to be in a museum. I've not played in about 25 years but something I used to do is for grid less play I used to make rings out of wire, stiffened rope or leather. These were in the sizes I needed for AoE effects, and movement. Very simple to use, you do something that has a AoE just drop a ring over the character and everybody sees the exact size of the effect. Need to move it will show you the limit your allowed. We would make new ones at the beginning of each adventure for those who didn't have them or had a distance change. Just a spool of colored wire, so it shows up better, and a ruler is all you need and 30 seconds to make it. Hope this helps. :)
Love the description " this is just a visual representation of the theatre of the mind"
Haven't used a grid in a over a decade, but I did invent a grid shadow stencil which cast a 1 inch grid shadow on my table when placed (or held) about 10 inches or less above the table. I have projected a 1 inch grid down onto the table using the "TRACER" projector by Autograph (taped the focus lense in place) & a piece of graph paper ( darkened the lines, skipping every other line & taped it on). It's really light weight so I could hang it from the ceiling. I used a plastic wall hook & super glued it to the projector (the hook was a peel & stick self adhesive but I glued it anyway) & then screwed a hook into the he ceiling above the table. I placed a battle mat on the table, got them lined up so the lines were parallel & adjusted the focus until the squares matched sizes. It's really not that hard. It looked really good, lined go right over terrain which looked especially cool over trees. I never actually tried to use it in a game for several reasons. First off ya gotta turn all the lights off/ close the shades to see it, basically the projector is only light source, which is bright but focused in a specific area (the battle mat). 2ndly I didn't secure the projector in place and any disturbance of the wire caused the projector to sway. 3rdly the square size distorted about 3 feet from the center of the projection. The further from the center ya go the more distorted it was. This wouldn't be a problem on most tables, but my gaming table at the time was 2 inches longer & wider than a queen size mattress. I thought was cool but it was a pain in the ass wasn't practical, which is saying a lot coming from me, I've hung mini clouds, glow in the dark star constellations above the tabl, hung landscape posters (bottom flush to the top of the table) on the way to create backgrounds. Heck I even moved the main lamp around to emulated Sun during a the time of day and year before. Hmm If I could get my hands on a buncha laser pointers , lol. My other suggestions uses a peg board. Find a peg board with holes in it placed in 1 inch grid they're fairly common. First one I got from Terrainscapes. Use the peg board as a stencil to create a grid on terrain. lay peg board over the terrain or as close as possible. Then use a different colored flock, paint, or accent etc and sprinkle them through the holes down the terrain. Terranscapes created a grass feild and then used, slightly different colored flock, little flowers, gravel, just some variation to create the grid on the the grass field. The trick is mixing up the barely detectable marks with a buncha different things. The last one is mine but inspired by Terrainscapes. Take that same hile grided peg board & hang it above the table. Then get a few those small retractable tape measures & fasten a hook on the back end of it, on the opposite side from where the tale comes out. Any wire that keeps it's shape can be used as a hook, glue it, tape it or just wrap it around it. Hang the tape measure from the holes in the peg board. Next either get some of those little tiny woman's clear plastic hair clips, or some 2 inch squares of material strong enough to hold minis. Then get some string & tie the clips or squares to the tab on the very end of the tape measure that prevents the tape from being sucked back into the casing. The squares you want to tie so they hang flat parallel to the table top, creating a surface to place minis on, you'll have to use more than one piece of string or tie multiple knots. If hanging the peg board from the ceiling is too much than you can use a net. A bit off topic but my ultimate achievement in minis was tying some magnets to a string and tying the string to the wall. I then placed a bunch of speaker magnets inside a tower model. I placed the tower on the game table so that the string on the wall when extended was just short of touching the tower, but close enough that the force of magnetic attract was string enough to keep the string suspended in mid air. I then fun tacked a Warhammer wizard fig onto the magnet tied to the string & blamo my wizard mini was levitating.
I’ve played wargames and rpgs for decades. I did one campaign a while ago on a whiteboard with a grid and dry erase marker details. Then I played the PC version of Temple of Elemental Evil which doesn’t use a grid.
So next campaign I was inspired and went with the wargaming approach and just use a tape measure and a more relaxed approach. Works great.
First and foremost, thank you for the videos, the crafting inspiration and contributing to the community. It's a better place because of what you do.
Regarding the subject.....as a certified gognard (playing and DMing since the 70's) , I've done both. I've found that grids lead to 'chess-like' tactical play and drags out combat and gridless combat (or pure TotM gaming) seem to encourage epic play. Templates for AoE stuff, string for movement and generally following 'rule of cool' over 'rule of books' has worked really well for us. Your group may vary and YMMV.
Do what works for you and your group, knowing it may not for someone else (and that is FINE).
Thanks again to BMC for the awesome. Keep it up and keep crafting.
One thing that my old DM did was just drop terrain on a battle mat. If we needed to figure out the distance over the piece of terrain, we'd just refer to the part of the mat we could see. This made it so the terrain wouldn't need to have lines when it was more outdoorsy. I hope this is good advice for sticklers for grids too :)
The whole grid system came from Wizard's of the Coast when they started with their line of D&D miniatures. I've never bought a mini from them as I prefer to use the pewter or stiff plastic minis because I used to customize them and would today as well. But the whole D&D grid system for indoors and her for out door areas came from DMs mapping for a home brew campaign, or redrawing the provided maps from the modules so secret doors & other DM only knowledge was kept from the players using the map to navigate the dungeon.
I like when tiles without grids are use for much what you said how it brings us back to the roots of theater of the mind. I've knowtessed when given gridded tiles my players norrow their vision and start asking, "Is there something hidden on this space? No! What about this one?" Or completely stop talking all together and play it as rigged and structured like chess. But when I provide tiles without grids. Players start asking more questions becoming a little more analytical. Questions become less narrow and more extended to the hole area. When one player becomes more talkative most follow.
Great observations! What you say makes a lot of sense.
I've been on the fence re: grids for months now and this vid, actually, gave me the push that I needed to do what I've long wanted to do. Thanks, Jeremy...this video was the final nail in the coffin for grids in our campaign.
this cave is still gridded but the tiles are much larger. i am now in love with the idea of bigger tiles. it saves so much time no more will my players need to count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. instead just 1, 2. or just 1 if i'm feeling adventurous
I use gridless caves and outdoors and use grids in tiled floor dungeons and castles. Wherever it makes sense to use a grid I do, but my group switches back and forth multiple times a night. We barely even think about it anymore.
That's why I always hire urchins ( from the local urchins Union I might add) to always run ahead of me chalk in hand drawing grids . As a bonus the little tykes often set off any traps meant for my harm or get roughed up by vandals meaning to do me all kinds of bodily ills ( *shudder*) ( with the added bonus of no longer needing to compensate the little scamps😁👍). 😃
I like the grid where it makes sense. I don't use it for outdoors and caves. I am a stickler for game play so if a PC or monster moves 30 feet that's 6"". Your tiles are 3" so moving straight from one side to another is 15 feet but not from corner to corner. That's a bit more than 4" or 20 feet. So for me a corner to corner move from on tile to the nest puts a PC or monster in the middle of the second tile. Oh and I loved the intro :-)
Great points and definitely agree. We've started using a length of yarn w knots every inch and it's so easy. Gridless has its advantages for sure.
I always found the fixation on the grid somewhat odd. I only use it as a help to eyeball distances (3 straight is 2 diagonal)
Also especially on this tileset you made, you still have a grid! it's just bigger. You can easily eyeball the smaller grid (corners, middle of the edge, center)
I started DMing february, this year. My first contact with d&d. No grid, never! From the first day, i picked some wooden sticks for BBQ and painted them b/w every inch, done. Best decision ever!
Not my account. (My dad's.)
All my life, we played MAGUS (a derivative of ADnD) and later DnD 3rd ed, without visual aids. No mat, no minis, nothing. Whenever I had to put out a visual description of a situation, I just drew a few lines on a piece of paper and numbered a few circles, telling my players: these are the goblins, those are your characters, and that chocolate smear is the pond from which the demon emerges.
Whenever the issue of movement came up, we used a simple method. Whatever the storyteller says goes.
It worked perfectly. My player would tell me he is charging the demon through the massed goblins, I would tell him two of them get an attack of opportunity on him and we worked that out. My player would tell me, she throws a spell at the goblin chief, I would tell her the dwarf and a goblin is in the way, and she decided to move, so I told her her move ends beside the wall and now she is clear to cast, roll concentration for casting on the move. The player would tell me, he charges alongside the warrior, I would tell him he is too far away. So he would tell me, he is charging the goblins instead. Fine by me.
No aids, no measurements, hilarious encounters, lots of fun.
When I introduced a grid of some sorts to my group in the form of a predrawn map and used markers and tokens to represent objects of interest, they did not like it. Not at all. It took away from the game of imagination.
However it is just how we play around in Hungary. Poor people make do with whatever they can.
There are pros to not using aids. First off, cheap. Second, the imagonation is the most versatile thing. You want to start a barfight? No terrain? Never even needed it. Last three dungeons were caves, all three were different. Ice, earthen, mine whatever. No need for expensive terrain. Your character died? You can roll up one right away, no need to hunt for a new miniature.
However, there is a great pro to using miniatures and well-made terrain. It keeps players focused and their imagination will be driven by what they see on the table.
The grid however doesn't add, but take from the drama. It makes time unrealistic. Playing without the grid made the action flowing without changing anything about the turn mechanic. You just could or couldn't do things. Simple. Things were driven by description and thus people imagined the flow of battle as a constant thing, sometimes forgoing even initiative or order of action for the sake of the drama. Yes, it is chaotic, sometimes unfair, but with good players and storytellers, hellishly rewarding.
Final however:
I do plan on playing on terrain the next time I recruit a group. I plan on using miniatures too, heck, I am already scratchbuilding and collecting. But I'll try to preserve the drama without grid and being liberal with the rules.
I strongly suggest deciding what kind of game do you play. Boardgamish or dramatic. The former can benefit from a grid and strict ruling.
Edit: spell effects were handled in a similar manner. Imagine, decide, go with it. Can't decide, roll the dice. This free method made magic a bit more realistic. One time I was rollin a mage and my character was attacked in the middle of casting. No aids to tell me, we are in adjacent squares, my enemy was just there, attacking me. Same information, different interpretation. I lit him up with the spell, and the storyteller told me my enemy lit me up too. I think it wouldn't cross his mind if this particular enemy was a token a few millimeters away from a token representing me.
I started playing D&D in 1980, at the age of 12. We barely had miniatures and trees and such lifted from our HO scale railroads. We used a tape measure and a ruler as needed. As much as I love building and playing rpg's and wargames with terrain, there is, in my opinion and experience, a loss of "suspension of belief" with an enforced grid. Even without a grid to guide them in a setting that would not contain a grid, players are going to get an "eye" or "feel" for distance and make more and more accurate calls on their perceived movement and ranged combats/actions. You are spot on, sir, spot on. Besides, that tree is probably 10 game feet from the orc, and I am pretty sure I can make the shot. Pretty sure......
It all just depends on what kinda DM your are and what kinda players you have
Each group should just play the way that they enjoy most, this goes for pretty much every aspect of the game^^
I've never played any RPG *with* a grid. The best we ever had was in college, we had a white board. That was awesome to be able to diagram battles.
What an awesome idea!
I like gridless play, utilizing a few flexible architectural rulers and what I call the D4 of Doubt, which I use to resolve reach/range disputes that are really too close to call without argument.
I've been running games for over 20 years and I've only just now started using grids.
My party is hard core min/max player's that love combat and would even cheat movement if they could so I must watch it closely. Now I do War Game so I use the string if I don't have a grid.
I also have pre cut plexiglass for spells like fireball or color spray vary handy. So all in all if your group is big RP people ya who cares no grid but if they want to test there combat powers in TPK War I can see why you feel you need it still.
We also only role play combat lol so if We were short on movement we mite come up with out of the box thinking. Combat can be the movie you want it to be shield sliding down steps to get more move wile shooting there bow lol.
Precut plexiglass for spells, I love it! I'm going to have to do that.
Thanks for the insight! I'm super new to d&d and playing DM for the first time.
Well done! Grid or gridless; both are fine. I played A&D so of course we mapped on graph paper. So, even today's 1/2' grid compared to what we used to do back them is better. We used to have minis but never functionally used them which was...kinda dumb, right? However, terrain adds so much to the game. Not all of it and there is still plenty of room for sessions that are all theater of the mind.
Terrain helps everyone visualize and, just like you pointed out, use a ruler! Simple stuff really and string is also a great idea. Terrain brings the game to life! It adds a 3-dimensional element that 2D just can't get you.
It's also damned fun to build. Tiles, walls, buildings, building fronts, boats, wagons, furniture for an inn, market shops, cobblestone road tiles, trees, tents, and cave terrain. These are all the things I've built in the last year and each one was just plain fun to think out and make. Now, not everyone at every table necessarily likes to build and that's fine.
I've learned a lot in the last year. This channel along with DMScotty and Wyloch lead the way in my humble opinion. As always, thanks for sharing!
the models vs game pieces remarks you made were absolutely correct. We want our game pieces to be immersive for immersions sake. You were spot on. Great end cap.
That gaming table is so awesome.
Great video.
I also ditched the grid on my D&D game. It makes combat so much flexible.
Great Video I completely agree that using the tiles you have a scale. Those tiles look crazy good, I hope mine look half as good
You probably already know this, but in case any of your viewers/readers don't: Fabric/sewing supply stores will often have bendable rulers. They're for measuring the distance around curves in garments to see if you have enough trim, piping, or whatever. Great for figuring out non-linear movement.
I've just recently started watching your videos, and most of the ones I've watched are from 2019... Stumbled upon some from 2017 and I'm laughing A LOT with these intros. Great content man, great content.
Hi, im barely start mastering D&D with minis. My star player complains about that i slow down the sinergy of the game. you have help me a lot! thank you!
It's actually a hole another ball game with a map compared to no map. There strategies and attack formations with the map. With out it it's more of in your mind. Really it's if you want it more of a borad game or more of a mind game
I mean, if you build all your terrain in set sizes (like these 3x3 squares), you can just imagine the grid on each 3x3 tile without needing to physically have them. Most people aren't so stupid they'll freak out about a lack of a grid lol
I've been in a group on D&D for about five years and I don't think we've ever used a grid. We do have some house rules to make this easier, such as leniency when it comes to proximity and we don't use reactions or tactics such as surrounding an opponent. We've never had the space or money for the amazing stuff created on this channel, and one day I'd love to, but I think keeping it in the imagination can be really freeing.
We occasionally use maps drawn on a white boards but they are never drawn to scale, they are more to give a basic visual of more complicated areas and we use whatever is available to represent our characters (currently Discworld pewter miniatures, but different colored d6 or meeple work just as well). For battles we very rarely place a 'mini' for enemies, we just individually keep track of who we were attacking, then if another player attacks a distracted enemy they get advance etc.
Edit: We do have a large group (4 to 7 players depending on the week) so it would be difficult for us to use a grid without constantly climbing over each other lol
as a dm grids make life so much easier, area of effect spells, multiple enemies, Chase scenes....i can't imagine running a horde of orcs and have to measure out their movements each time.
There are actually specific chase scene rules in the books dude, you're not intended to measure everybody's individual movement, check em out. To me grids make chase scenes boring? How do you narrate that, if at all?
As a 40k warhammer player, loved the video. Not a fan of grids, personally find the visualization of the game board or terrain more immersive without the grid.
Personally I find the idea of a grid to be weird :D We came from things like 40k and WHFB so if we have to, then we measure with a ruler or tapemeasure. Most commonly we just do stuff and on occasion the DM will say, 'No, you can't move that far... *sigh*,' and just tells us where we can move to. Of course even that is fairly arbitrary and unmeasured.
Our group loves the grid. It just speeds things up for us, and enjoy using it.
"And their terrain is often kicking our terrain's ass" You heard it from him, not me! Lol, I don't really play RPGs anymore, as I am primarily a wargamer, but as a guy who makes a lot of wargame terrain, you have nothing to be ashamed of. I follow yours and many others (wyloch, scotty, etc) for inspiration for wargame terrain. But I do like all of what you said in this video.
Awesome job. I've been on the fence about going grid less. You made a lot of really good points!
my first 8 years where without a grid !! I think it made me a better player cause we realy focused on the description
I don't know if this has been said, but there are templates out there for area of effect spells. You can also use the tables in the DMG. Example your Wizard casts Fireball into a 20'x20' room, how much of the room is engulfed in flame? Or he casts it down the corridor, centered on an enemy, 10' radius around that creature is filled with flame.
I'm only just getting back into D&D but when I used to play it many years ago we never worried about distance or a grid we just said what made sense and went from there. Of course we never had cool terrain, we just had mostly unpainted pewter miniatures on a piece of paper with some lines drawn where the walls were. That or pennies or dice for markers for characters and monsters. Wow times have changed!
As someone who originally came from wargaming (WH40K) into the RPG scene, I find it funny that people don't realized how easy it is to bust out a measuring tape and get accurate distance. If people can do it with 100+ minis in a game with a complex set of distance rules in the meta, you can definitely do it with a few PC's and NPC's in a RPG.
With a seamstress tape measure, or a piece of string with knots in it at every inch. 1 inch then = 5 feet. This also works remarkably well for combat with flying combatants, as it gives you real distance from you to your target.
I feal like some campaigns work well with a grid and others do better without. Playing gridless does require a certain level of trust (as mentioned in the video).
For my game I guess I'm too OCD to go gridless. You make some good points though. Good video!
Try using string for measurement, you'll get even more accurate play because then people can go at different angles or wind through a forest or other obstacles. Let that feed your OCD :-)
Sounds like you're getting too hung up on the things you're seeing before you on the tabletop instead of seeing it in your head/mind. Also playing a tabletop RPG which none of your RPG group has any miniatures for could be very helpful, because then the only person who really needs a map is the DM/GM.
So many more tabletop RPG's then just D&D or pathfinder. Try some of them out and have some fun.
I use a grid, not because I think it's necessary, but because it's easy. I use papercraft terrain. I've never built a single piece out of foam and I'm not sure I ever will because there is so much awesome paper terrain out there (both 2D and 3D). I think the grids on paper terrain look good aesthetically. It might seem weird that I watch Black Magic Craft since I don't craft foam (and I am a Patreon supporter too), but I like to support cool, creative endeavors like this. I have crafted some DM Scotty bits to use with my papercraft. Since I don't craft foam, I am a big fan of the DM's game journal, so please make more of those. Also, a vid about when you use terrain and when you do theater of the mind would be cool (foe example, terrain only for encounters?)
Personally I actually also think that the grid looks "right" on all sorts of paper craft, where it doesn't on the type of terrain I use. In the same vein I find the grid to make more sense when using digital maps.
Tbh me and my friends will play online and I am lucky that I decided to use the sims to get the sets done! We haven't played yet (timezones are a bitch) but I have the advantage of the build mode having a grid over the ground to place items down. But I can also turn it off and use a chair or something as a measurement unit coz one sim is one tile, and so is the chair. Though Im using the sims just to give the guys a reference point of how the place looks and to those with sharper eyes to notice some small story telling details (like an open letter in the tavern owners room, or the statue facing a particularly weird direction, where there is a wall, or different entry ways) that might inspire them to look around without me pointing out every detail in a room, in a way testing my players passive perceptions! Pretty sure I won't have to build out every cave or forest clearing, but places like markets, homes and such could inspire an understanding of what they are working with.
Good video. I wish more people were capable of letting go of the grid. It boggles the mind that so many players insist on dumping rules like encumbrance, but have an almost OCD attachment to the grid system. I think 13th Age did a good job at replacing grid movement.
I simply just use the grid for the drawing of the maps and placing of terrain, mh players know about how much 6 inches is, i dont need to tell them to use the grid for movement if nothing else actually uses the grid like a chess board. The grid just works better for keeping proportions.
Well said. (slow clap) The terrain and minis are just avatars to the actual game, which is taking place in our minds and verbally. When I was a kid playing in the 70's and 80's we played all of this stuff out on graph paper with pencils and A LOT of erasers and we still loved it.
If you don't want grids on your 3D terrain, but still want the grid, you can always etch a grid in some plexiglass (or get a laminate grid) and just throw it over the base layer of terrain.
I know I am really late to comment on this and I agree with the concept of gridless for 90% of the playing situations. We do have one problem however .... geometry
In 5e one 1" square = 5' regardless of how you traverse it, this is not an issue if we are traveling side to side parallel to a side ... however once we start to deflect off at an angle we actually change the 'real' distance for every square we move the mini.
Take for instance the standard human fighter who wants to move up and attack the vile orc who has been threatening the village. On a grid the human can move diagonally 6 squares to get to the orc, that distance in inches is actually 8.5" but if we go gridless we have the issue of the fighter only moving 6" so suddenly he is 2.5" short of where he would be if there was a grid.
The same issue rears its ugly head with casting spells. A fireball has a range of 150' (30 squares) but if that fireball is cast on a gridded map diagonally the range in reality becomes over 212'.
I remember when I started playing in 1983, the rules were more written for ungridded combat .. spells had ranges in inches, movement was in inches etc. Unfortunately once the hobby found gridded maps the creators swapped from distances in inches only to distances in feet but each square represented a certain number of feet.
Go back to distances in the rules as inches and this is all solved but far too many people would lose their mind if they had to use measuring devices instead of their fingers to count squares IMO.
But current D&D rules ARE in inches…..just listed as feet. Grid combat is an optional rule in D&D 5e, not the standard rule.
They died where they stood, I LOVE IT LOL, good one Jeremy!
I've never used grids. In fact we use a massive table and poured sand is the base land. We are able to create smooth custom hillsides. We add set pieces like you've built to enhance and show rocks.
I've always wanted to try out one of those sand tables. I think it's so awesome for outdoor stuff.
We love it because it allows for fast changes, custom changes and I take photos for when characters return to specific terrains. It hasn't replaced foam and crafting entirely but really offers some unique landscapes. Once I even created a half sunken city that had been enveloped by a mudslide. If you try it, let me know what you think!
This may be one of my favorite videos of yours. Thanks so much for addressing this so elaborately and open-mindedly. I'm sharing this with all of my groups IRL and on Facebook. Thanks, again.
P.S. Still waiting for the video on making those bridges and ladders! :D
Coming from Warhammer40k and switching to D&D, gridless combat is pretty intuitive.
I think the "obvious" solution is the rig up a group of laser levels and hang it from the ceiling and then you have a laser grid! Even better, if you set it up right you should be able to rotate your laser grid to line up with whatever direction you need to measure.
Old-timer here. When I played regularly in my teens and 20s, we never worried about movement rates. Realistically, a person jogging 5 mph moves 440 feet in a minute; so most people can be anywhere in a normal room in one round. Characters are always milling around and searching the place anyway, so, except when a player said his character went somewhere specific or the characters were moving as a group in "marching order", I pretty much decided where the characters were when something happened.
We play Savage Worlds ADE, and use next to nothing. We have a grid mat and some pewter LoTR minis, but they only get used for certain big fights (the baddies are just paper chits or random dice). The speed and RP of the game is wonderful with the simple rule set and no futzing with a lot of movement.
Such a good video!! I've been making non-tiled cave tiles and have thought about using the 40k method of making sticks with distance. Thanks!
Our group does things mostly in the mind scape. Only thing we use minis for is to help represent how the formations are, who's flanking and how the group is traveling
Edit: I guess mindscape could also be called theater of the mind
Speaking just as an artist and now amateur builder. Grids are not as aesthetically pleasing as open untouched terrain. I know you have recently found a new appreciation for battle mats, and by no means do I snub my nose at that. However I was drawn to this channel because the first few videos I saw had these really amazing terrains built up that looked more like an art project or stop motion movie set than a table top game. Your work showed me how far the "game" has evolved.
My homebrew makes use of ranges in lieu of a grid.
You distance weapons (like siege craft, ranged weapons, reach weapons, melee weapons, and close quarters weapons.
You can fire into the closer range without joining it. Joining it means you're in a cluster of at least two.
It makes much more sense I think.
I’ve decided to run my next campaign without a grid and am building my dungeon tiles without a grid. It was an easy decision after playing the PC version of Temple of Elemental Evil which doesn’t use a grid and plays well. I’ll use electrical wire cut to a standard length, minus a base width, so you can put the wire against the base and move the model to the other end for a full standard move. (O---O) I suspect some issues related to base sizes though. Will probably make zones of control equal to base sizes.
I've DMed for over 30 years, and never have used a grid or mat or minis at all. Mainly because we couldn't afford all that stuff in the beginning, but then we just came to realize we didn't need it anyway. It's really just for aesthetics anyway. If we really needed some sort of visual aid it was just as easy to doodle a quick map on paper.
I plan on trying to run starfinder completely without a grid, and just going by eye and what looks right based on terrain, weapons and skill level.
It wont be precise but i feel we can get it good enough.
I plan to use a white board with dry erase markers to draw in the map as players reveal it so i can control FOW and i like the idea of only showing enemy pawns on the table when PC's can see them. so if they go behind cover and none of the players can see them, they will be removed from their board.
In some cases BMC, the new flood of players that 5th has brought to us may not have ever seen a war game table. They have downloaded books and Amazon shopped for dice and have never actually set foot in a game store or a comic shop.
One of the players I have is like this, I brought her in to the game and all she knows of game style is mine. So when I started putting out terrain and map tiles it blew her mind. She had never see something like that.
In the war game warmachine we used a measurement template called a Oklahoma template. It has 1", 2", 3", 5" measurements
Bravo sir. I agree, you don't use a grid for the bulk of playing (which takes place in theater of the mind), why suddenly break the feel and switch, personally It just doesn't make sense (but hey what ever floats your boat). To me grids break a lot of the descriptive narrative of the game (why would you want that) In fact, we seldom measure movement in our games, it allows for much more fluid play, if in doubt roll a check! Actually we rarely use terrain except for particularly special occasions, it's really sweet but often we find it just too limiting really. Always give your players agency and the benefit of the doubt, don't be a jerky DM! Chase scenes area a good example of where the grid completely breaks down and a series of checks runs much better (there are chase rules actually) To me D&D is not a board game. Might be different if you were playing something like say Heroquest or Warhammer Quest etc... Free yourself of the grid, you'll be glad you did!
Great Subject! I have tons of ways and also make custom tables with 2 blank grid mats and one grid top. I think you should use a grid but Jeremy is correct you don't need one to play D&D! DM John Kyff, a DM since 1977.
If you have a decent DM then grid or no grid it's not an issue. Sadly in my experience grids keep DMs honest. It's got very little to do with players.
I can see your point regarding keeping things 'honest', but my experience is that the credit/blame for needing that 'honesty' can happen just as easily with players as with DMs. I'd argue a lot depends on when they started playing and how they approach the game, but that wanders far afield. As always, YMMV.
Blandco No kidding. I've seen blatant cheating from DMs in that regard.
Cheating DMs don't really get the game anyway. Leave 'em. There's a much better gaming experience to be had without them.
I DM exclusively without grid or any kind of terrain. All theater of the mind. And my players like it more. But, i keep one simple rule in mind: when in doubt, rule in favor of a player. Otherwise, you get situations where players feel "cheated". Slyflourish has a very good article about the "Tyranny of the Grid" and how to run narrative combat. slyflourish.com/guide_to_narrative_combat.html
in my opinion grids makes things much less worth it. players starts wondering if they can shoot in between lines, they wonder how many more ruling they must understand to understand how that grid works. grids keep DMs honest, if you think so then you have never played with players trying to break the game to get advantages. that's the reason i stopped using them all together, players were often trying me with half a feet distance. i'm too far. look at that mini its big and its arm reaches me 10 ft further. and all those things that makes grid not really on scale. all that made me weary, once i removed the grid those players couldn't really trick anyone anymore. also it allowed the DM and players alike into doing more cinemtic work.
Most encounters are in such close quarters that combat distance doesnt matter, which is where most players initially want it. Outside of combat players will move their character to where they want with or without grids.
I think what matters more than anything else is that you make terrain pieces that suit your game or play style.
I love the String with knots in it to make quarter and half movements or if there's something that needs measuring
Nice idea
I usually find that if there's more than around 5 or 6 creatures in an encounter (monsters/NPCs and PCs), then I use a grid to keep track of everything. Figuring out how far away the ranger is while making sure that the fighter is within 5 feet of the orc that the rogue wants to sneak attack while there's spell effects going on and---
Yeah there's a lot. With less than 5 things, I'll usually run theatre of the mind, but if a campaign will regularly run larger combats, I'll just stick to a grid
I've found that to add a grid to something like grass/caves that don't have one I just place + marks on the corners of the grid so that the grid is visible but not solid lines that look like they're part of the terrain itself.
An LED projector strategically mounted above your table could easily project any style grid you like over the terrain, you could also project AOE elements. I'd love to see someone try something like that.
Really interesting thoughts, though it feel like if your this rule of cool with movement terrain seems kinda unnecessary and you might as well just play full theatre of the mind. Also this is specific to some of my playgroups but even with the grid we have folks just kinda shoving there minis into space thats not there stopping in spaces or traveling through spaces there race doesn’t allow trying to scale house to get somewhere within 30ft without accounting for the climb up or down. The grid is an attempt to keep these things in check in my opinion. But I definitely feel more comfortable in approaching gridless when i have some cool maps without grids i want to use