Important note: if you upgrade your unit type via tech-ing up, it will change ALL your units, so you'll have to disband/re-recruit if you want your subject's units. Also, building units in a subjects lands not only give you their unit type, but also their tech level (this might be obvious). This is important because you need to pay attention to their tech level and type before recruiting. Their tech type may unlock upgrades at different tech levels than you.
If you are desperate, I agree it is useful. But I think it is too much hassle to transition your army from scratch once new unit comes. If you are behind in mil tech you can steal vassal tech with this. You don't get other stuff like combat width, military tactics but you should take whatever you can while fixing your country. In one of my games I was playing as Poland and my Albanian vassal was early to get cannon tech. I had cannons to siege forts while not having the tech. One of the funny thing you can do is select the worst possible troop as main type. Your rebels spawn with that type. Then use your vassals ahead of tech troop types.
I did this recently as Ming while going for the Copium Wars achievement and wanted western units to fight in Europe. The only things to watch out for are that your subject might be behind on tech, and that you lose the units when you upgrade.
TheStudent is back with more useful strategies! Now that's what I like to hear. Even if I don't go for High American every game, it's less of a commitment to go for Anatolian tech units, so that's nice to know.
What happens when new Units are unlocked? Do the High American Units upgrade to better High American ones or to Western? Cause deleting and re-recruiting your army every few techs seems like a huge downer to this strategy... Other than that great video as always.
@@cr3acks144 I don't think we need to re do everything all over when new mil tech unlocked. I think we just need the vassal we get the units from to take the latest miltech (which means don't annex them)
You cannot click to get new units youself (except Artillery of course) otherwise you would change all High American Units back to your Western Type and you also have to rerecruit them from your vassal if you want to get upgrades... BUT: the High American Units on Tech 12-25 have only 2 Pips difference in between so just recruit your Army on Tech 12 and you can un around with crazy Pips until 1700... I think that is reasonable for the buffs you get
@@thestudentYT based on the graph at the beginning of the video, there is a massive time period where the High American tech does not change and is still be higher than all other tech, which is kinda crazy.
Ich liebe es einfach immer wieder, jedes deiner Videos füllt sich wie eine kleine Vorlesung an. Wieder etwas was ich nicht kannte und die Anwendung ist literally in JEDEM Game anwendbar. Glaube allerdings dass du ein wenig über den Punkt hinausgeschossen bist. Denke jeder weißt, dass die High American Troops absolut broken sind. Denke auch ohne den 4Fire/6Shock General hätten die Kämpfe ein klein wenig anders ausgesehen, deinen Punkt hast du allerdings rübergebracht. Danke dir wieder für dein Video Student, bis nächste Woche!
So the Ottomans had a 4/4 general and I had 4/6 ... and Fire is the only big difference in Pips so... I don't see the big difference except that the Ottomans had 15k more troops, more Cav, 12% more Discipline and 0.2 more Tactics...
@@thestudentYT But doesnt the pips of the generals count also for the phases? So if you would have like a 1/1 general, Im not sure but I think the ottomans couldve wiped you there on that condition. But sure what do I know? I could be extremly wrong here. Im speaking more of my own experience instead of numbers and statistic. I should clarify that. It would be intresting to know what army tradition and army professionalism both of you had. And btw, would it be better for you if I write my comments in the future in english? Could be confusion to other viewers, just asking for politeness. //edit Rethinking about what I wrote, I would say that my position of view might be to exaggerated. Im surely standing with my point, that the ottoman army would win this battle if you would have a way worse general. But they wouldnt wipe and it would be still a close lose.
@tempestleeks Army tradition only matters for Morale and you can see the Morale there and I had 0 Professionellism and no Army Drill... and yes General Pips do the same as Dice Rolls or Pips but again: My great General only evened out the Great Ottoman General so it made it more compareable not less
it is OP but early game is shock damage focused and High American just has more fire pips and less shock pips which makes it like an equal alternative of eastern or muslim tech group for early stage of the game.
Yeah sure you can get Nomad Cav for example as well but anyways I still almost beat a superior Ottomans on a shock tech with High American so they are still super strong
You just need 1 or 2 (if you are small) big allies and you still win on the same tech. I'm doing a Kingdom of God game rn and just won a holy war crusade cb against them with Poland
but when in the reformation do the ottomans not require a tech advantage to beat?, also from my understanding with the glitch with Tuscany it's a programing error that verifies if you have generic missions before you form them (if you do you don't get new missions, if you don't then you do get new missions) the good news is that it's an 'easy' fix but the bad news is that the only options to fix it yourself aren't ironman compatible (either you use commands to gain the missions. edit the decision so it works how it should. or find/create a mod that fixes it. the only other options are play in a different update. play as Florence so you bypass the problem altogether, or wait for paradox to patch it)
At this point you might as well convert to Mayan Nahuatl or Pagan, move your capital to the new world and reform to Inca, Aztec or Mayan. Then complete those missions yourself.
So far I'm having a very good Milan game to try for Italian ambition (the only problems were I was unable to get a early show strength war. Castle got Aragon as a pu while Aragon had Naples (Sardinia was released before that and is currently independent), and I'm slightly behind in admin tech because I just ended the disaster), do you think it's worth forming Italian formables before forming Italy for the achievement or should I just do that in a different run? (If nothing goes wrong enough then I intend to try to form rome before I end the run)
@@thestudentYT true. but i am in a update where Tuscany isn't glitched via unnecessary programing. stuff like admin efficiency from sardinia_piedmont will be very helpful for later. Tuscany will give me free power stab a diplomat and both state governing cost reduction (the economic type, just to clarify) and 0.5% interest removed from normal loans. two sicilies will help me a lot with that tolerance (it's not much, but it helps) the government reform progress will be useful and there are a few other helpful things, yes I'm aware that Milan can be good enough before forming Italy but i don't know if it's worth it or not to avoid forming anything before Italy (sardinia_piedmont will make conversion and expansion faster. Tuscany will help my economy and help my diplomacy. two sicilies will help hold my nation together, and Italy will make expansion much faster)
EU4: the game where you can have a thousand hours in, and you're still learning new things. This is pretty cool! Of course there is a significant cost - a locked diplo slot, needing to get colonial range, a liability to get into wars, and needing to recruit all your units far away. But if your nation is suited for it, that sounds pretty worthwile! Better yet: unlike all special units, there's no cap of how many you can get.
I have 5k hours in eu4 and I had no idea this was possible. How do you avoid having a colonial nation spawn? Do you just not core the provinces before releasing Aztecs?
But you can't ever upgrade your units, so every time "THEY" tech up you have to delete your entire army and rebuild in order to have the "current" units.
Yeah, but on Tech 12-25 High American is basically the same so if you really cannot spare the money or Manpower for that (which is still less than the bigger losses with western units) then you can just do it once at tech 12 and keep them until 1700... so no problem here
Sure but Tech 12 High American Units are basically the same as Tech 25 (and even then in 1700 they are still better) so apart from Tech 9 and 12 it doesn't matter basically
You have to recruit new ones so the 80% Professionellism would be helpful to keep the Manpower But actually Tech 12 Units are basically the same as Tech 25 so... it doesn't matter
Its not really equal to the +1 from rough terrain its more like 1/3 since the dice roll in rough terrain is applied to shock/fire/morale, whereas the pip applies only to 1 of those
@@thestudentYT Yeah morale pips are generally high value since they apply in both phases but its still not even close to being equal to a +1 dice roll was my point. Just because when you were comparing the anatolian 5 pips vs western 3 pips and saying its equivalent to fighting someone on mnts when fighting someone on mnts is more like a 3pip vs 9pip disadvantage
0:00 And everyone's wrong. No western tech group country is actually fighting ottomans at tech 3, except maybe Venice and Aragon, and even then the actual difference is 1 pip: Western tech group infantry units have 2 pips, ottoman "Yaya" infantry has 3. And the moment you reach lvl 5 even that distinction disappears, at least for Eastern (Poland, Hungary, Russia etc.) and Muslim tech groups, since at that tech level all 3 tech groups have infantry units with 4 pips. Also, Anatolian units fall off at tech 15. They do have a short-lived moment of actually being better than anyone else- but that's actually at tech 12- which is why they're such a pain in the ass in early 1500's, when they basically get a tech-15 level of pips on their infantry, but to compensate they don't get a new infantry unit at tech 15 AT ALL, so the moment you reach lvl 15 they become mid-at-best, and more often than not are scraping the bottom of the barrel. The ACTUAL reasons why Ottomans are so much stronger, is: A. Their starting missions- they have access to two very simple to fulfil missions that last 25 years, which give them extra +15% morale, making them immediately stronger than anyone else at the very, very beginning of the game. B. Abundance of sieges they do in first few years of the game. Ottomans can go to wars with ~10 countries in the first 20 years of the game, all of which have at least 1, but very often 2 (or even more) forts, which gives them a consistent advantage in army tradition generation, and therefore also leader quality. Every siege gives +2 army tradition, now just count that. 1 fort in: Epirus, Candar, Dulkadir, Trebizond, Ramazan, Athens, Bosnia, Ragusa, the Knights. 2 forts in: Wallachia, Serbia, Albania, Karaman, Byzantium. 4+ forts during wars with Venice and Mamluks. No wonder they get to like 60% army tradition by 1460's and spam 2/5/4/3 general at the time when you're happy with a 1/3/1/2. C. Janissary regiments, which are cracked beyond belief. They might throw Ottomans into some debt during a war due to to their high reinforce cost, but they're one of the strongest special units in the game (maybe with the exception of the revolutionary guards) and certainly The Strongest before you can stack some additional modifiers on top of other special regiments. Which is why they become such pushovers the moment you drive them out of the Balkans (they need heathen provinces to recruit them) even if they already managed to conquer a bunch of provinces in the Middle East. D.Their starting ruler is S tier, and they have higher quality heirs in general since they can choose 1 out of 3. And even though bot won't disinherit their heirs, having an ability to "choose the highest" out of 3 dice rolls, instead of being forced to accept the result of a single roll is: super advantageous, or elvishly accurate, or lucky-but-before-the-2024-changes, or whatever other DnD term you might want to use. Making the player feel as if Ottomans are so much stronger because you don't get to profit from their technological backwardness as is so often the case when fighting other AI nations. Because they have so much more mana points, that even the ret@rded EUIV AI can't fall behind on tech.
So I guess the Ottomans never run around with 10k Cav that has +66% more Pips and is stronger in base anyways then... And also then I didn't just hold the line until the end with 12% less Discipline, 0.2 less Tactics, 15k less troops and way less Cav and Cannons... I guess you might be right about that Pips don't matter here I guess it must have been the Fairy that helped me there
@@thestudentYT You did- you're a human. You used a lot of ottoman cav that is very strong at tech 3-5. The bot doesn't run around with armies full of cav, and your intro is talking about that- Ottomans being so strong to fight against, not Ottomans being strong to play as. Again- Janissaries, missions, general, army tradition. Discipline is heavily overestimated in early game anyway: 112% of shit damage is still low damage. Also, you might've just been lucky with dice rolls. I guess it must've been that. Maybe the only possible options really are: You're right and unit pips are actually secretly insanely stronger than a multitude of different reasons, or... fairy dust. You overstating it, can't possibly be true.
@@thestudentYT He says it a little wrong, but he does make a good point that it's not the infantry that normally makes the difference early game, but as you say, the cavalry - and he notes that the other modifiers also matter a lot. Also, in all fairness, you did have a great general,, and you did have a full combat width I believe? It's still a very solid mechanic though, and it showed!
@IndependentObserver So first of all: Yes, the Ottoman AI runs around with half Cav Armies in 1450... at least in most of the Games I've seen so far And then you would really still say that Pips doesn't matter after seeing the battles in the end? Of course I cannot understand that because it sounds really stupid
@@sorsocksfake that is why I said it is "ONE Big reason" and I'll stand by that after I did this video... Also actually I had a 4/6 and the Ottos had a 4/4 General so the only difference was in shock phase which doesn't matter for High American basically... And Yes I had a full Combat width but Ottos had that as well AND half of the backrow AND more units to reinfore the front row than I had... so I really don't get the point here because the Pips is all that held me alive in that battle and it is that simple
Isn't terrain a bit more significant than you describe? In the calculations for example, -2 terrain penalty from attacking into mountains would effectively reduce your offensive fire, shock, and morale, thus being comparable to a reduction of 6 pips? Or am I misunderstanding something? Great video as usual!
I don't know what to say about the battle results. You claim that the Poles have lost more troops percentage wise then you did. They lost 19% (9676 out of 48700) of their army while you lost 29% (7760 out of 26000) of yours. You claim that the Ottomans lost the same amount of troops that you did. You lost 13224 infantry which is more then their total losses 12.863, not even taking into account your cavalry and artillery losses which bring your total losses to 16525. Even percentage wise, you did worse than the Ottomans, 53% vs their 32%. So these battles don't seem too good.
Now first of all the Polish lost 24% of their Army because you cannot take the Artillery in the Back row into account (because if I just had a full Backrow the overall percentage would be way lower as well so what's the point then) And most of that is because of the last 3 days where they rolled a 9 exactly in a Shockphase which these 3 day costed me like 3.4k troops alone... and absolutely they still lost more troops even though they outnumbered me And then for the Ottos: I have lost 30% more troops but that is even though they outnumbered me by 50%, had 8k more cav, half backrow of Artillery and last but not least: 12% more Discipline and 0.2 more Tactics! So that is strong if you calculate all of that together
@@thestudentYT well, I see your point regarding the artillery, but regarding the dice rolls, you can't really discount them and say that one of the phases skews the numbers. The dice are part of the game.
@@thestudentYT I realized that my comments did not come out the way I wanted. I wanted to point out that even with high american units, you can't go in blind into any battle expect to trounce any and all enemies, but while doing and writing the math, I forgot to write my conclusion.
Is it OP? Yes. But if I do that I can't blame unit pips for when I lose, so I won't do it.
what is this a crossover episode
Idk man. 10 ducats for a infantry unit looks a lot to me. I will stick to regular tech group units.
Pimp my pips
@@Goktug-rl7yc Unit price has nothing to do with tech groups. The standard price for 1 infantry, is 10 ducats for all nations.
@@benjaminthorsen2848 you got pranked
Important note: if you upgrade your unit type via tech-ing up, it will change ALL your units, so you'll have to disband/re-recruit if you want your subject's units. Also, building units in a subjects lands not only give you their unit type, but also their tech level (this might be obvious). This is important because you need to pay attention to their tech level and type before recruiting. Their tech type may unlock upgrades at different tech levels than you.
If you are desperate, I agree it is useful. But I think it is too much hassle to transition your army from scratch once new unit comes.
If you are behind in mil tech you can steal vassal tech with this. You don't get other stuff like combat width, military tactics but you should take whatever you can while fixing your country.
In one of my games I was playing as Poland and my Albanian vassal was early to get cannon tech. I had cannons to siege forts while not having the tech.
One of the funny thing you can do is select the worst possible troop as main type. Your rebels spawn with that type. Then use your vassals ahead of tech troop types.
I did this recently as Ming while going for the Copium Wars achievement and wanted western units to fight in Europe. The only things to watch out for are that your subject might be behind on tech, and that you lose the units when you upgrade.
I‘ve never known that you can hire different tech group units. Thanks for such incredible insight
Imagine Jaguar warriors striking Janissaries under the walls of Istambul for the Christian god
TheStudent is back with more useful strategies! Now that's what I like to hear. Even if I don't go for High American every game, it's less of a commitment to go for Anatolian tech units, so that's nice to know.
All I can think of now is High American Prussia
Pretty simple process, and something that can potentially be widely applicable. I never tried to build from provinces like that before.
best eu4 channel not even close. never seen as much innovation from anyone else
Could you feed your aztec vassal provinces in europe so you can recruit without having to ship them overseas?
That is why Ethiopian warfare overwhelms Mamlukean warfare in Mil lev 5.
African Lev 5 infantry is insane.
Nice video ! Always a pleasure to learn something new about eu4 with you. Continue the good work please !
Alright this one is legit going to be meta standard in MP now wtf
I like your viedos keep going now i undersotund that battle mechanic! Thank you very much!
What happens when new Units are unlocked? Do the High American Units upgrade to better High American ones or to Western? Cause deleting and re-recruiting your army every few techs seems like a huge downer to this strategy... Other than that great video as always.
@@cr3acks144 I don't think we need to re do everything all over when new mil tech unlocked. I think we just need the vassal we get the units from to take the latest miltech (which means don't annex them)
The units must be refreshed with new higher pip units this way. (Not sure)
You cannot click to get new units youself (except Artillery of course) otherwise you would change all High American Units back to your Western Type and you also have to rerecruit them from your vassal if you want to get upgrades... BUT: the High American Units on Tech 12-25 have only 2 Pips difference in between so just recruit your Army on Tech 12 and you can un around with crazy Pips until 1700... I think that is reasonable for the buffs you get
@@thestudentYT based on the graph at the beginning of the video, there is a massive time period where the High American tech does not change and is still be higher than all other tech, which is kinda crazy.
Ich liebe es einfach immer wieder, jedes deiner Videos füllt sich wie eine kleine Vorlesung an. Wieder etwas was ich nicht kannte und die Anwendung ist literally in JEDEM Game anwendbar. Glaube allerdings dass du ein wenig über den Punkt hinausgeschossen bist. Denke jeder weißt, dass die High American Troops absolut broken sind. Denke auch ohne den 4Fire/6Shock General hätten die Kämpfe ein klein wenig anders ausgesehen, deinen Punkt hast du allerdings rübergebracht. Danke dir wieder für dein Video Student, bis nächste Woche!
So the Ottomans had a 4/4 general and I had 4/6 ... and Fire is the only big difference in Pips so... I don't see the big difference except that the Ottomans had 15k more troops, more Cav, 12% more Discipline and 0.2 more Tactics...
@@thestudentYT But doesnt the pips of the generals count also for the phases? So if you would have like a 1/1 general, Im not sure but I think the ottomans couldve wiped you there on that condition.
But sure what do I know? I could be extremly wrong here. Im speaking more of my own experience instead of numbers and statistic. I should clarify that.
It would be intresting to know what army tradition and army professionalism both of you had.
And btw, would it be better for you if I write my comments in the future in english? Could be confusion to other viewers, just asking for politeness.
//edit
Rethinking about what I wrote, I would say that my position of view might be to exaggerated. Im surely standing with my point, that the ottoman army would win this battle if you would have a way worse general. But they wouldnt wipe and it would be still a close lose.
@tempestleeks Army tradition only matters for Morale and you can see the Morale there and I had 0 Professionellism and no Army Drill... and yes General Pips do the same as Dice Rolls or Pips but again: My great General only evened out the Great Ottoman General so it made it more compareable not less
OK?
OK?
RIGHT?
OK?
No offence, m8, I love you and all of your videos, I have 9k hours in EU4 and still learn a lot from you. OK? 😊
it is OP but early game is shock damage focused and High American just has more fire pips and less shock pips which makes it like an equal alternative of eastern or muslim tech group for early stage of the game.
Yeah sure you can get Nomad Cav for example as well but anyways I still almost beat a superior Ottomans on a shock tech with High American so they are still super strong
The great thing is that you can have all of the above!
I knew about this for years, but I also never bothered with doing this...
The Aztecs served the Pope instead of the Swiss Guard.
All that to reinforces what I know. Don’t fight the ottomans after they take Constantinople
You just need 1 or 2 (if you are small) big allies and you still win on the same tech. I'm doing a Kingdom of God game rn and just won a holy war crusade cb against them with Poland
but when in the reformation do the ottomans not require a tech advantage to beat?, also from my understanding with the glitch with Tuscany it's a programing error that verifies if you have generic missions before you form them (if you do you don't get new missions, if you don't then you do get new missions) the good news is that it's an 'easy' fix but the bad news is that the only options to fix it yourself aren't ironman compatible (either you use commands to gain the missions. edit the decision so it works how it should. or find/create a mod that fixes it. the only other options are play in a different update. play as Florence so you bypass the problem altogether, or wait for paradox to patch it)
I remember when you could recruit other unit types by what province you recruited in
Do the vassal recruited units scale with your mil tech? Or your vassal? Will they advance when you research a new unit type?
At this point you might as well convert to Mayan Nahuatl or Pagan, move your capital to the new world and reform to Inca, Aztec or Mayan. Then complete those missions yourself.
Not possible as Papal State, France, Ottomans, and not worth for anyone else imo
So far I'm having a very good Milan game to try for Italian ambition (the only problems were I was unable to get a early show strength war. Castle got Aragon as a pu while Aragon had Naples (Sardinia was released before that and is currently independent), and I'm slightly behind in admin tech because I just ended the disaster), do you think it's worth forming Italian formables before forming Italy for the achievement or should I just do that in a different run? (If nothing goes wrong enough then I intend to try to form rome before I end the run)
As Milan no other formable is needed but Sardinia Piedmont is always in reach of 1 culture shift...
Anyways, Milan > Italy > Rome is more than enough
@@thestudentYT true. but i am in a update where Tuscany isn't glitched via unnecessary programing. stuff like admin efficiency from sardinia_piedmont will be very helpful for later. Tuscany will give me free power stab a diplomat and both state governing cost reduction (the economic type, just to clarify) and 0.5% interest removed from normal loans. two sicilies will help me a lot with that tolerance (it's not much, but it helps) the government reform progress will be useful and there are a few other helpful things, yes I'm aware that Milan can be good enough before forming Italy but i don't know if it's worth it or not to avoid forming anything before Italy (sardinia_piedmont will make conversion and expansion faster. Tuscany will help my economy and help my diplomacy. two sicilies will help hold my nation together, and Italy will make expansion much faster)
EU4: the game where you can have a thousand hours in, and you're still learning new things. This is pretty cool!
Of course there is a significant cost - a locked diplo slot, needing to get colonial range, a liability to get into wars, and needing to recruit all your units far away. But if your nation is suited for it, that sounds pretty worthwile!
Better yet: unlike all special units, there's no cap of how many you can get.
I did notice this before but I belive that if your vassal has lower tec your units also have lower tec
Yes but tech 12 is the only one that matters until 1700 for High American (and usually the AI isn't behind in tech anyways
trying american unit aganist the winged hussars and having good outcome in the shock phase would be so busted
I mean I probably should have used more Cav even though the difference in Pips isn't THAT high
Oh man, that local unit recruitment is old, OLD code. Like, that's a legacy of EU3 if I'm not mistaken
I have 5k hours in eu4 and I had no idea this was possible. How do you avoid having a colonial nation spawn? Do you just not core the provinces before releasing Aztecs?
Yeah I didn't core them
But you can't ever upgrade your units, so every time "THEY" tech up you have to delete your entire army and rebuild in order to have the "current" units.
Yeah, but on Tech 12-25 High American is basically the same so if you really cannot spare the money or Manpower for that (which is still less than the bigger losses with western units) then you can just do it once at tech 12 and keep them until 1700... so no problem here
Is this why you need to share institutions with your vassals? So they don't fall behind in mil tech and give you their best units?
Sure but Tech 12 High American Units are basically the same as Tech 25 (and even then in 1700 they are still better) so apart from Tech 9 and 12 it doesn't matter basically
If they upgrade their units will your upgrade as well, or you need to delete them and upgrade?
You have to recruit new ones so the 80% Professionellism would be helpful to keep the Manpower
But actually Tech 12 Units are basically the same as Tech 25 so... it doesn't matter
Its not really equal to the +1 from rough terrain its more like 1/3 since the dice roll in rough terrain is applied to shock/fire/morale, whereas the pip applies only to 1 of those
I mean Morale Pips are active in any Phase but in terms of Fire and Shock basically yes
@@thestudentYT Yeah morale pips are generally high value since they apply in both phases but its still not even close to being equal to a +1 dice roll was my point. Just because when you were comparing the anatolian 5 pips vs western 3 pips and saying its equivalent to fighting someone on mnts when fighting someone on mnts is more like a 3pip vs 9pip disadvantage
good stuff
Arnold Schwarzenegger
I did.
On average it’s about 10 % extra damage
I prefer to just mod the game to make European unit pips better. "High American" being this good is ridiculous.
But... Florry said unit pips don't matter!
The Denmark missions give you colonists, could you do this as Denmark without taking exploration or expansion?
Yes
0:00 And everyone's wrong. No western tech group country is actually fighting ottomans at tech 3, except maybe Venice and Aragon, and even then the actual difference is 1 pip: Western tech group infantry units have 2 pips, ottoman "Yaya" infantry has 3. And the moment you reach lvl 5 even that distinction disappears, at least for Eastern (Poland, Hungary, Russia etc.) and Muslim tech groups, since at that tech level all 3 tech groups have infantry units with 4 pips. Also, Anatolian units fall off at tech 15. They do have a short-lived moment of actually being better than anyone else- but that's actually at tech 12- which is why they're such a pain in the ass in early 1500's, when they basically get a tech-15 level of pips on their infantry, but to compensate they don't get a new infantry unit at tech 15 AT ALL, so the moment you reach lvl 15 they become mid-at-best, and more often than not are scraping the bottom of the barrel.
The ACTUAL reasons why Ottomans are so much stronger, is:
A. Their starting missions- they have access to two very simple to fulfil missions that last 25 years, which give them extra +15% morale, making them immediately stronger than anyone else at the very, very beginning of the game.
B. Abundance of sieges they do in first few years of the game. Ottomans can go to wars with ~10 countries in the first 20 years of the game, all of which have at least 1, but very often 2 (or even more) forts, which gives them a consistent advantage in army tradition generation, and therefore also leader quality.
Every siege gives +2 army tradition, now just count that. 1 fort in: Epirus, Candar, Dulkadir, Trebizond, Ramazan, Athens, Bosnia, Ragusa, the Knights. 2 forts in: Wallachia, Serbia, Albania, Karaman, Byzantium. 4+ forts during wars with Venice and Mamluks.
No wonder they get to like 60% army tradition by 1460's and spam 2/5/4/3 general at the time when you're happy with a 1/3/1/2.
C. Janissary regiments, which are cracked beyond belief. They might throw Ottomans into some debt during a war due to to their high reinforce cost, but they're one of the strongest special units in the game (maybe with the exception of the revolutionary guards) and certainly The Strongest before you can stack some additional modifiers on top of other special regiments. Which is why they become such pushovers the moment you drive them out of the Balkans (they need heathen provinces to recruit them) even if they already managed to conquer a bunch of provinces in the Middle East.
D.Their starting ruler is S tier, and they have higher quality heirs in general since they can choose 1 out of 3. And even though bot won't disinherit their heirs, having an ability to "choose the highest" out of 3 dice rolls, instead of being forced to accept the result of a single roll is: super advantageous, or elvishly accurate, or lucky-but-before-the-2024-changes, or whatever other DnD term you might want to use. Making the player feel as if Ottomans are so much stronger because you don't get to profit from their technological backwardness as is so often the case when fighting other AI nations. Because they have so much more mana points, that even the ret@rded EUIV AI can't fall behind on tech.
So I guess the Ottomans never run around with 10k Cav that has +66% more Pips and is stronger in base anyways then...
And also then I didn't just hold the line until the end with 12% less Discipline, 0.2 less Tactics, 15k less troops and way less Cav and Cannons... I guess you might be right about that Pips don't matter here
I guess it must have been the Fairy that helped me there
@@thestudentYT You did- you're a human. You used a lot of ottoman cav that is very strong at tech 3-5. The bot doesn't run around with armies full of cav, and your intro is talking about that- Ottomans being so strong to fight against, not Ottomans being strong to play as.
Again- Janissaries, missions, general, army tradition. Discipline is heavily overestimated in early game anyway: 112% of shit damage is still low damage. Also, you might've just been lucky with dice rolls.
I guess it must've been that. Maybe the only possible options really are: You're right and unit pips are actually secretly insanely stronger than a multitude of different reasons, or... fairy dust.
You overstating it, can't possibly be true.
@@thestudentYT
He says it a little wrong, but he does make a good point that it's not the infantry that normally makes the difference early game, but as you say, the cavalry - and he notes that the other modifiers also matter a lot.
Also, in all fairness, you did have a great general,, and you did have a full combat width I believe?
It's still a very solid mechanic though, and it showed!
@IndependentObserver So first of all: Yes, the Ottoman AI runs around with half Cav Armies in 1450... at least in most of the Games I've seen so far
And then you would really still say that Pips doesn't matter after seeing the battles in the end? Of course I cannot understand that because it sounds really stupid
@@sorsocksfake that is why I said it is "ONE Big reason" and I'll stand by that after I did this video...
Also actually I had a 4/6 and the Ottos had a 4/4 General so the only difference was in shock phase which doesn't matter for High American basically... And Yes I had a full Combat width but Ottos had that as well AND half of the backrow AND more units to reinfore the front row than I had... so I really don't get the point here because the Pips is all that held me alive in that battle and it is that simple
wow
Isn't terrain a bit more significant than you describe? In the calculations for example, -2 terrain penalty from attacking into mountains would effectively reduce your offensive fire, shock, and morale, thus being comparable to a reduction of 6 pips? Or am I misunderstanding something? Great video as usual!
It is all added up: Base Dmg = Dice Roll + Leader Bonus + Terrain Bonus + Unit Pips Advantage
(This is a simple version of the Formula)
Those unit pips on wiki are outdated.
Not really... the Wiki Graphics said 12 Pips on tech 10 for Inf. And in Game I also had 12 Pips on the Unit
I don't know what to say about the battle results.
You claim that the Poles have lost more troops percentage wise then you did. They lost 19% (9676 out of 48700) of their army while you lost 29% (7760 out of 26000) of yours.
You claim that the Ottomans lost the same amount of troops that you did. You lost 13224 infantry which is more then their total losses 12.863, not even taking into account your cavalry and artillery losses which bring your total losses to 16525. Even percentage wise, you did worse than the Ottomans, 53% vs their 32%.
So these battles don't seem too good.
Now first of all the Polish lost 24% of their Army because you cannot take the Artillery in the Back row into account (because if I just had a full Backrow the overall percentage would be way lower as well so what's the point then)
And most of that is because of the last 3 days where they rolled a 9 exactly in a Shockphase which these 3 day costed me like 3.4k troops alone... and absolutely they still lost more troops even though they outnumbered me
And then for the Ottos: I have lost 30% more troops but that is even though they outnumbered me by 50%, had 8k more cav, half backrow of Artillery and last but not least: 12% more Discipline and 0.2 more Tactics!
So that is strong if you calculate all of that together
@@thestudentYT well, I see your point regarding the artillery, but regarding the dice rolls, you can't really discount them and say that one of the phases skews the numbers. The dice are part of the game.
@SuperJJAlexander And what about the insane Ottoman Quality difference? xD
@@thestudentYT I realized that my comments did not come out the way I wanted. I wanted to point out that even with high american units, you can't go in blind into any battle expect to trounce any and all enemies, but while doing and writing the math, I forgot to write my conclusion.
The new meaning of sunset invasion, train high American Aztec units to fight your wars in Europe 😂😊 🤓
Quagersall has already shown this