"Heavy Support Squad with Lascannons is cheaper than a Tac Support Squad with Meltas" Well then, now I'll have to decide if my Heavy Support Slot in my Raven Guard army is going to use a Fire Raptor or a Heavy Support Squad with Lascannons.
The mastodon got nerfed, melta siege array is now just 5 twin-linked melta guns…….it wasn’t worth the points before now it’s a complete joke. It also had all its special rules removed, bunker when it was destroyed ect.
Excellent video. I’m a big fan of the rule of kool wins out, but I DO want a functional army and one that isn’t underpowered or overpowered. Can’t wait for the finished army and Part 2 of building each legion!
Yeah, using rule of cool and or a thematic approach is fine and dandy, you just have to remember what you need to do to compete in a games - otherwise you won't have fun and yeah the whole project will fail because of that.
On the transfers - I am so damn happy that I had my AL guys using the Raptor Imperialis as the symbol for their Harrow. Billions of the damn transfers in circulation now.
Are those dollar prices Australian? They are insane. Did the Australian dollar crater from hyperinflation or is that a GW thing? 135 dollars for a box of tactical marines is genuinely terrifying
Just a GW thing. Though I am sure that GW will gladly seize the opportunity to raise prices to 'match inflation' (Really meaning, to maintain their already insane profit margins on models). They could totally gobble up the inflation but that would harm their MASSIVE profits so they'll keep raising the price until their company shits the bed. Don't forget that when people are having to fork out more for food and bills due to inflation, people will not be keen on blowing a sum equal to a weeks load of groceries on 20 pieces of little plastic. Frivolous hobbies like 40k are the first things out the door when times get tough.
I just bought 3 squads of Night Raptors because I thought they would get line due to the Rite. Bummed at myself for not knowing, but I love the models and will still play them. Thank you for this information
Both the Night Lords rites suck because neither give scoring to their troops units, and Terror Assault penalizes you for taking it as well if you don't shell out for night vision on every unit. Because NL don't have night vision anymore. I guess Nostramo isn't some world of eternal night afterall.
Got 20 armless beakies at the moment waiting for a box of special weapons coming through to make ten plasma and ten chain guns. Want some pinning in the army with these reactions and something to slap Contemptors around with now they're so good and everyone's got two or three of them.
The special weapons box fits into the stock poses, the heavy weapons will be the only ones with new arms, have a support squad with Volkite Calivers and been putting flamers/meltas in with my tac marine squads
I think a good thing to learn is finding out which units are core and which can be swapped out, but that should come after you created your first list and played a few games.
What you mentioned about line troops makes me wonder if guard of the crimson king for the thousand sons, is even a viable build anymore. It used to say take Terminators as troops... but... if they aren´t line units and can´t score points... then it doesn´t matter if i can take terminators as troops choices or not, it still won´t win the game. So maybe other builds with the thousands sons will raise to the top instead.
doesn't crimson king work for all infantry types not just terminators? having regular dudes being able to to deep strike in might be useful but i could be wrong.
@@OmegaSolider13 if I recall correctly from what I have read online. It only says Terminators, get the fear rule combined with deep strike. But i could be mistaken and if it also counts for normal troops then it would still be viable.
I think that it makes the sehkmet troops but gives every infantry unit deep strike. I still might not use it though. both the thousand sons rites dont interest me too much, but that one i would use much more than the automata rite.
Don't forget they also get feel no pain to add to thier stubborn, 5+ it will not die multi wound terminators when near an objective, could even be viable sitting them far back with a conversion beamer if they are just on guard duty
What I would kind of like to see would be general advice on efficiently converting standout independent characters and councils in plastic from the mark 6 bodies. Stuff like finding radio equipment for a master of signals, or nartheciums for apothecaries, or, uh, wizardy bits for psykers. I'm converting my first of 3 apothecaries using the left arm and backpack from a sanguinary priest and a cut down tabard from a primaris sword brother so I'll have something nice to apply the apothecary symbol to.
also this is all really useful information and i think people should look at what can actually get them points. I know for alpha legion lemean terminators have line which is pretty rare if you're taking Pride of the Legion.
hey macca me old salty sardine ! It's great that you're doing these videos because it's like getting Horus Heresy info from someone that actually knows what they're talking about. I like it. A couple of points: MkIII armour with MkVI arms is a starting point for MkV heresy armour, so that could actually be a great idea. I'm waiting on the new heavy weapons upgrade sets though because like a lot of heresy grognards, I already have enough heavy bolters and missile launchers. Heavy support squads literally are basic troops for a Deathguard army: go lascannon heavy support meta. That transfer sheet. XVI, cut it up a bit and you got an XIV, which will be great if I can be bothered to use transfers on muh deathguard. It works for several, if not all legions if a person is brave enough. Good points on super heavies and troops that don't control....the tac support squad melta guns being more expensive than hss lascannons is ridiculous, I almost expect GW to FAQ lascannons into oblivion for our troubles....
I'm getting started with Imperial Fists, I've already bought and painted the power armour Praetor, gonna be running him as a Delegatus. Then I'm getting a MkIII box: 2 Veteran Squads, 1 Tactical Squad (PotL, for now). Then a Deimos Rhino because they're cool. From then on we'll see, I was thinking a set of Templar Brethren and another Rhino for them, and 10 Terminators. But I'm not sure yet.
I think the melta support squads only draw over the lazcannon heavy squad is if your army has a Drop Pod rite of war to just pop them down on your opponent's centerpiece tank model
My first purchases after the AoD box (the core of my Calth themed 4th Company Ultramarines) are going to be a 20 model Mark III Tactical Marines box and x10 Praetorian Breacher Upgrades, for a Nemesis Chapter themed Nemesis Destroyer Squad and a 10 model Praetorian Breacher Squad. Then Remus Ventanus. And some boxes of the new plastic Kasrkin to act as Vigil Opertii Grenadiers. Eventually I'll get tanks and drop pods but I always tend to play more infantry heavy armies. Not sure if that's wise or not. I'm all about the theme (Calth Underworld War, tailored for Zone Mortalis).
I'm building a WE legion and want to go most for mkIII so I ordered one box. They will be my core troops, but I will get heavy weapons team with mk VI (as a better sensor suite at the cost of armor lore-wise kinda makes sense for long range support). But I intend to try and swap 20 mkVIs for 20 mkIIIs with second hand.
So they have tied the support and heavy weapons to the bloody beaky armor? Ah well 3D PRINTER GO BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
No the separate heavy/special weapon besets are solely for MK VI, MK III and IV come with some heavy and special weapons but not enough to build full supports unless you buy a fair few of the twenty man boxes. Forgeworld still have some weapons available though compatible with III and IV.
The mark 3 and mark 4 have a hvy bolter and missile launcher along with special weapons unfortunately you have to have at least 50 of them to get support squads
I'm not up on the lore, but are the Son's of Horus known for any thing special, meaning something that is their shtick. Type of vehicles, assault marines, tactical marines, terminators, etc... ? Something they use or rely on more than most other chapters?
You bought one tank, buy two, and buy 2 deimos, buy 2 more troop packs, buy 2 special weapon packs, and buy 2 more dreads. Now that you are just semi viable... go start purchasing the FW troops for semi-competitive or competitive play. Or better yet... and I'm just... having a wild thought... printer go brrr?
and while you point out heavy support squads are a better cost investment, many rites of wars limit how many heavies you can take, some like the aforementionted pride of the legion making it so you can only take one heavy unit. 10 plasma gunners can still do a lot of work especially with the "nerfed" ap being a boon for survivability.
I'm building salamanders (obviously) and I am picturing the army as post istvan scrounging armor from the raven guard to explain why the have beaky helms
do you think they will rescale or make new mark 2-5 ?? i`d love some of the older marks as they don't suit a lot of the legions style (i`m pretty sure perturabo suggested it should be given to the raven guard to ensure ithis mark would fail, hence the name corvus armour)and but i`m not so keen on the scale differences, they`d probably have the designs computerised so increasing it by 0.05% or whatever probably wouldn't be too hard for them, the real issue would be the retooling or press cost that might stop them
i have a cataphractii terminator praetor as my warlord, HQ legion command squad, then 4 elites (legion contemptor, justerian, 10 man veteran squad with banestrike bolters with rhino and a 10 man reaver squad with a rhino) 6 infantry squads (4 are line, 1 is support with volkite caliver rifles and a terminator cataphractii squad since i use the long march rite of war) the spartan and kratos tank as heavy support and a missile launcher squad. no fast attack since i didn't want to bring more since i was already pushing 3k points. Is it a good list? idk, i was collecting 3 years ago and just added some newer models to my list. I don't like the mark 6 but i use them for heavy support, support, and veteran squads for lore reasons due to the upgraded sensors, regular line i use mark 4 for the better armour it had in the lore.
If you want to kit out MKIII armor with heavy weapons, why wouldn’t you just buy the cheap weapons kit instead of the not cheap heavy weapons bundled with 20 MKVI troops you don’t want?
@@TheOuterCircle I get that, but it made no sense for you to compare the price of the weapons PLUS the 20 MKVI marines when trying to decide if the cost of the weapons with the effort of conversion was worthwhile. In US prices, the 20 weapons are $42, and the cost of the weapons plus marines is $122. I’m much more open to needing to convert arms when the cost from Forge World for the same number of weapons would be $106. Plus shipping.
The kit comes with MK VI arms designed to fit the weapons, the weapons don't fit MK III without a fair amount of chopping and changing, depending on weapon.
Ive got 3 squads of 40k chaos im moving over to heresy (fortunately im iron warriors so all that is mk3) and was going to get the new box, the special weapons box and 2-3 rhinos and use the mk6 marines as support squads in the rhinos. So would it be better moving the mk6 into being heavy with say 10 with autocannons, 10 with las and sticking my line in the rhinos?
Unwisely planning my legion... sounds like me!
Like Angron??
Me looking over at my 10 man tac support squad with meltas: "fuck"
"Heavy Support Squad with Lascannons is cheaper than a Tac Support Squad with Meltas"
Well then, now I'll have to decide if my Heavy Support Slot in my Raven Guard army is going to use a Fire Raptor or a Heavy Support Squad with Lascannons.
YES, finally-a video outlining, in detail, how I grow and collect armies!
The mastodon got nerfed, melta siege array is now just 5 twin-linked melta guns…….it wasn’t worth the points before now it’s a complete joke. It also had all its special rules removed, bunker when it was destroyed ect.
Growing your army poorly: "this is cool, I want it!"
Excellent video. I’m a big fan of the rule of kool wins out, but I DO want a functional army and one that isn’t underpowered or overpowered. Can’t wait for the finished army and Part 2 of building each legion!
Yeah, using rule of cool and or a thematic approach is fine and dandy, you just have to remember what you need to do to compete in a games - otherwise you won't have fun and yeah the whole project will fail because of that.
On the transfers - I am so damn happy that I had my AL guys using the Raptor Imperialis as the symbol for their Harrow. Billions of the damn transfers in circulation now.
Meanwhile, I chose to start AL, and the transfer sheet has been sold out for some time, lol
Just watched this and your 'Wisely' video, much food for thought, thank you 😊
Are those dollar prices Australian? They are insane. Did the Australian dollar crater from hyperinflation or is that a GW thing? 135 dollars for a box of tactical marines is genuinely terrifying
Just a GW thing. Though I am sure that GW will gladly seize the opportunity to raise prices to 'match inflation' (Really meaning, to maintain their already insane profit margins on models). They could totally gobble up the inflation but that would harm their MASSIVE profits so they'll keep raising the price until their company shits the bed. Don't forget that when people are having to fork out more for food and bills due to inflation, people will not be keen on blowing a sum equal to a weeks load of groceries on 20 pieces of little plastic. Frivolous hobbies like 40k are the first things out the door when times get tough.
@@alistar2590 I’m surprised you don’t get people in the UK to order box sets for you and ship them across, surely it’s way cheaper doing it that way?
I just bought 3 squads of Night Raptors because I thought they would get line due to the Rite. Bummed at myself for not knowing, but I love the models and will still play them.
Thank you for this information
Both the Night Lords rites suck because neither give scoring to their troops units, and Terror Assault penalizes you for taking it as well if you don't shell out for night vision on every unit. Because NL don't have night vision anymore. I guess Nostramo isn't some world of eternal night afterall.
But all marines have night vision.
That's okay, Raven Guard has an entire rite of war that doesn't even work until solar auxilia and other non space marine factions come out
@@rayvg7709 Not anymore they don't. Night Lords have to pay 15 points per unit to give their units night vision.
@@manofthewest5395 I meant that as in, lore wise Astartes have night vision.
As we hit economic hard times in the next year/s GW will really notice the huge problems in their price gouging model.
buy from china
Got 20 armless beakies at the moment waiting for a box of special weapons coming through to make ten plasma and ten chain guns. Want some pinning in the army with these reactions and something to slap Contemptors around with now they're so good and everyone's got two or three of them.
The special weapons box fits into the stock poses, the heavy weapons will be the only ones with new arms, have a support squad with Volkite Calivers and been putting flamers/meltas in with my tac marine squads
I think a good thing to learn is finding out which units are core and which can be swapped out, but that should come after you created your first list and played a few games.
What you mentioned about line troops makes me wonder if guard of the crimson king for the thousand sons, is even a viable build anymore.
It used to say take Terminators as troops... but... if they aren´t line units and can´t score points... then it doesn´t matter if i can take terminators as troops choices or not, it still won´t win the game.
So maybe other builds with the thousands sons will raise to the top instead.
doesn't crimson king work for all infantry types not just terminators? having regular dudes being able to to deep strike in might be useful but i could be wrong.
@@OmegaSolider13 if I recall correctly from what I have read online.
It only says Terminators, get the fear rule combined with deep strike.
But i could be mistaken and if it also counts for normal troops then it would still be viable.
I think that it makes the sehkmet troops but gives every infantry unit deep strike. I still might not use it though. both the thousand sons rites dont interest me too much, but that one i would use much more than the automata rite.
MK2 and mk3 have great 3d print files available.
Print 100 mk3 guys for a few dollars
Yes bolterjugend is awesome
I'm running a Headhunter Leviathal and using Lernaeans as my scoring units because they have line by default.
Don't forget they also get feel no pain to add to thier stubborn, 5+ it will not die multi wound terminators when near an objective, could even be viable sitting them far back with a conversion beamer if they are just on guard duty
What I would kind of like to see would be general advice on efficiently converting standout independent characters and councils in plastic from the mark 6 bodies. Stuff like finding radio equipment for a master of signals, or nartheciums for apothecaries, or, uh, wizardy bits for psykers.
I'm converting my first of 3 apothecaries using the left arm and backpack from a sanguinary priest and a cut down tabard from a primaris sword brother so I'll have something nice to apply the apothecary symbol to.
Master of signals is easy from the box, Just a nuncio vox backpack and the arms/tablet from the vehicle upgrade sprue.
For my apothecaries I bought one set of Kromlech narthecium and backpack and made 3 more using Bluestuff and Miliput.
@@MkZuO12345 I may need to look into that for my procurators.
also this is all really useful information and i think people should look at what can actually get them points. I know for alpha legion lemean terminators have line which is pretty rare if you're taking Pride of the Legion.
hey macca me old salty sardine ! It's great that you're doing these videos because it's like getting Horus Heresy info from someone that actually knows what they're talking about. I like it.
A couple of points:
MkIII armour with MkVI arms is a starting point for MkV heresy armour, so that could actually be a great idea.
I'm waiting on the new heavy weapons upgrade sets though because like a lot of heresy grognards, I already have enough heavy bolters and missile launchers.
Heavy support squads literally are basic troops for a Deathguard army: go lascannon heavy support meta.
That transfer sheet. XVI, cut it up a bit and you got an XIV, which will be great if I can be bothered to use transfers on muh deathguard. It works for several, if not all legions if a person is brave enough.
Good points on super heavies and troops that don't control....the tac support squad melta guns being more expensive than hss lascannons is ridiculous, I almost expect GW to FAQ lascannons into oblivion for our troubles....
I'm getting started with Imperial Fists, I've already bought and painted the power armour Praetor, gonna be running him as a Delegatus. Then I'm getting a MkIII box: 2 Veteran Squads, 1 Tactical Squad (PotL, for now). Then a Deimos Rhino because they're cool. From then on we'll see, I was thinking a set of Templar Brethren and another Rhino for them, and 10 Terminators. But I'm not sure yet.
I think the melta support squads only draw over the lazcannon heavy squad is if your army has a Drop Pod rite of war to just pop them down on your opponent's centerpiece tank model
My first purchases after the AoD box (the core of my Calth themed 4th Company Ultramarines) are going to be a 20 model Mark III Tactical Marines box and x10 Praetorian Breacher Upgrades, for a Nemesis Chapter themed Nemesis Destroyer Squad and a 10 model Praetorian Breacher Squad.
Then Remus Ventanus.
And some boxes of the new plastic Kasrkin to act as Vigil Opertii Grenadiers.
Eventually I'll get tanks and drop pods but I always tend to play more infantry heavy armies.
Not sure if that's wise or not. I'm all about the theme (Calth Underworld War, tailored for Zone Mortalis).
I'm building a WE legion and want to go most for mkIII so I ordered one box. They will be my core troops, but I will get heavy weapons team with mk VI (as a better sensor suite at the cost of armor lore-wise kinda makes sense for long range support). But I intend to try and swap 20 mkVIs for 20 mkIIIs with second hand.
Just buy recasts. Parts you want and no mark 6
@@firstnamesurname5376 I have a ten man squad of mark 2 marines with legion specific torsos wielding og shoulder heavy bolters.
So they have tied the support and heavy weapons to the bloody beaky armor?
Ah well
3D PRINTER GO BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the plastic heavy weapons come with two different arms so they can fit on both mark iii and mark vi
No the separate heavy/special weapon besets are solely for MK VI, MK III and IV come with some heavy and special weapons but not enough to build full supports unless you buy a fair few of the twenty man boxes. Forgeworld still have some weapons available though compatible with III and IV.
The mark 3 and mark 4 have a hvy bolter and missile launcher along with special weapons unfortunately you have to have at least 50 of them to get support squads
That huge blade on the assault tank just looks so ugly and stupid it doesn’t fit the model it looks to orky
Sure, the model works fine without it
Just hearing you talk about this and man... im glad they really play tested and made sure things are viable... ohh wait...
I thought this video was about building an army for people with no money.
Tactical support squads are no longer scoring troops... Yep, this edition is a dumpster fire. Good thing we've got HH 1.0.
I'm not up on the lore, but are the Son's of Horus known for any thing special, meaning something that is their shtick. Type of vehicles, assault marines, tactical marines, terminators, etc... ? Something they use or rely on more than most other chapters?
You bought one tank, buy two, and buy 2 deimos, buy 2 more troop packs, buy 2 special weapon packs, and buy 2 more dreads. Now that you are just semi viable... go start purchasing the FW troops for semi-competitive or competitive play. Or better yet... and I'm just... having a wild thought... printer go brrr?
That WE Rampager squad looks awful! Were they sculpted in 1988?
and while you point out heavy support squads are a better cost investment, many rites of wars limit how many heavies you can take, some like the aforementionted pride of the legion making it so you can only take one heavy unit. 10 plasma gunners can still do a lot of work especially with the "nerfed" ap being a boon for survivability.
I'm building salamanders (obviously) and I am picturing the army as post istvan scrounging armor from the raven guard to explain why the have beaky helms
do you think they will rescale or make new mark 2-5 ?? i`d love some of the older marks as they don't suit a lot of the legions style (i`m pretty sure perturabo suggested it should be given to the raven guard to ensure ithis mark would fail, hence the name corvus armour)and but i`m not so keen on the scale differences, they`d probably have the designs computerised so increasing it by 0.05% or whatever probably wouldn't be too hard for them, the real issue would be the retooling or press cost that might stop them
I found some 3d print files. Converting the spartan to typhoon. Better or no?
YES YES YOU DID IT!
i have a cataphractii terminator praetor as my warlord, HQ legion command squad, then 4 elites (legion contemptor, justerian, 10 man veteran squad with banestrike bolters with rhino and a 10 man reaver squad with a rhino) 6 infantry squads (4 are line, 1 is support with volkite caliver rifles and a terminator cataphractii squad since i use the long march rite of war) the spartan and kratos tank as heavy support and a missile launcher squad. no fast attack since i didn't want to bring more since i was already pushing 3k points. Is it a good list? idk, i was collecting 3 years ago and just added some newer models to my list. I don't like the mark 6 but i use them for heavy support, support, and veteran squads for lore reasons due to the upgraded sensors, regular line i use mark 4 for the better armour it had in the lore.
Wow everything ng is so expensive in AUS, im glad im English with this hobby
The adding more troops is a rules tactic by GW to buy more line troops for scoring.
Hi, I know nothing about the rule side of things. Are templar brethren scoring units? Are they scoring as troops?
I thought this video was going to be on the new word bearers unit which you called again
Look, I'm getting awful close to being burned as a witch...
indiana jones and the grail knight guardian... he chose.... poorly
Laughs in Alpha Legion with Line Lernaen Terminators and the ability to steal other Legions elite Line units
03:10 in and i thought you were talking about me.
IF warders become troop and line which is nice
If you want to kit out MKIII armor with heavy weapons, why wouldn’t you just buy the cheap weapons kit instead of the not cheap heavy weapons bundled with 20 MKVI troops you don’t want?
Because the heavy weapons arms don't fit the other marks of armour, you need to buy FW weapons if you plan to do it.
@@TheOuterCircle I get that, but it made no sense for you to compare the price of the weapons PLUS the 20 MKVI marines when trying to decide if the cost of the weapons with the effort of conversion was worthwhile. In US prices, the 20 weapons are $42, and the cost of the weapons plus marines is $122. I’m much more open to needing to convert arms when the cost from Forge World for the same number of weapons would be $106. Plus shipping.
@@Prototheca Oh, no, sorry, I wasn't trying to compare the $ price, I was comparing the price in tabletop points XD
@@TheOuterCircle my bad, completely misinterpreted that
PLAN AHEAD!
No truer words have never been spoken.
You only have so many First Born, and Souls to sell....
interesting
huh am i responsible for the kratos comment lol
This isn't an anatomy video...
Why cant you use the heavy weapons on Mk III?
The kit comes with MK VI arms designed to fit the weapons, the weapons don't fit MK III without a fair amount of chopping and changing, depending on weapon.
@@TheOuterCircle OK thanks. I guess this range is not a thought through as some say it is.
I dispute that the mastadon looks cool. It doesn't fit the space marine aesthetic at all imo
Ive got 3 squads of 40k chaos im moving over to heresy (fortunately im iron warriors so all that is mk3) and was going to get the new box, the special weapons box and 2-3 rhinos and use the mk6 marines as support squads in the rhinos. So would it be better moving the mk6 into being heavy with say 10 with autocannons, 10 with las and sticking my line in the rhinos?
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈