Counseling Student REACTS to Dr. Maruki & Joker Session (Persona 5 Royal)
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Is the new Counselor in Persona 5 Royal, Dr. Maruki, actually any good at counseling? Well Yusuke is adamant about finding out finding that answer. As a Master's level counseling student I wanted to react, analyze, and review his in-game counseling sessions to see if he's any good and how he can improve. While we see Takuto Maruki speak with all of the Phantom Thieves today we will specifically be looking at his session with Joker after the Kamoshida incident in the main story and yes, there will be full 3rd semester spoilers so if you do NOT want to be spoiled, go finish Persona 5 Royal, then come back so we can hear my full thoughts and analysis of Dr. Maruki and Joker's counseling session.
I do want to note that all counselors will come at situations from different theoretical orientations, backgrounds, and belief systems. My opinions correlate with my own education and professional experience up to this point in my education.
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This was a really fun and interesting session to look at and I'd love to hear what your thoughts on it were! Do you think that Maruki did well with Joker overall, or do you think that his research request was completely out of line?
Was it out if line yes, but in the context of the game it worked well as Joker gained confidants that rebelled against the injustices of society.
A few thoughts:
1. The relationship vibes I get from their confidant conversations is that Maruki treats Joker more like a colleague than a patient. What they say and do together advances both of their personal agendas. I'm no expert, but that probably wouldn't fly in the real world.
2. Any plans to discuss their final "session", which I lovingly call the "Tifa and Scarlet Method"? XD
3. I finished this game last Monday and as I have been decompressing it, an episode of Batman: The Animated Series comes to mind - "Perchance to Dream".
*SPOILERS FOR A 28 YEAR-OLD EPISODE* Batman is on a case and is seemingly knocked unconscious. When he wakes up he is world where all of buried desires are seemingly made real - his parents are alive, he is engaged to Selena Kyle, and someone else is the Batman. At first he doesn't believe it, but then a bit past the halfway point, he accepts this world as his reality and embraces the happiness he always wanted. That doesn't last very long, and he eventually wakes himself up by jumping off a bell tower. He then wakes back up in the real world hooked up to a machine and he confronts the villain of the episode, the Mad Hatter, about why he showed him those things. The Hatter responds: "You of all people have the gall to ask me that?! You ruined my life! I was willing to give you any life you wanted, just to keep you out of mine!"
I just thought the similarities to these stories are interesting. P5R takes around 90 hours, give or take, to make it to that story arc, whereas Batman does all of it in 20 minutes. I know there isn't quite a one-to-one correlation with the circumstances, but I was just wondering if you had any thoughts about this particular episode of of BTAS.
I love your channel! I just found out about it and It's really interesting to see these analyses of characters we love. Counseling and psychology in general are such interesting subjects that I can't help but binge watch your whole channel, so thanks!
I can see why a ethics bored would not be keen on duel relationships. When I played though the game, I assumed this involvement was a method of empowerment. Being able to be helpful allows someone to feel they can contribute and that there worth something right? You have to have power to help others.That can be achieved in othere ways that are not as personal for sure. I just assumed it was a method to build repore. I'm not a student or anything, but that was my thought.
It felt out of line to me too but not in a way that stands out much compared to how dubious most of the other adult confidant relationships seem to start or that you have the option to date 4 adult women including your homeroom teacher and main healthcare provider. >_>
It's the kind of thing that comes off like you're expected to suspend disbelief for gameplay purposes.
* Persona protagonist has a conversation for 10 minutes *
Character: Please solve all of my life's problems over the course of the next 8 months, please and thank you.
Lmao
Maybe maruki is just a pesrona protag in disguise?
@@B_A-tr When I didn't know Maruki's name, I thought he was the Fortune Social Link guy from Persona 3.
Keisuke, I think?
Its actually widely accepted that Joker puts on a mask or facade for people (its practically canon at this point or maybe it is I havent seen P5 in a while) and idk if you knew this but it is confirmed that Joker's glasses are fake. He wore it to blend in you'll even notice in the scene of the assault he doesnt wear them. If you ever look into Joker more just thought I'd let you know (or maybe you did who knows I forgot when it mentioned)
also if you go to the glasses store in kichijoji mona/ryuji if hes there will make a comment about how jokers glasses are fake!
And while it's a trend among all Persona protagonists to put on a persona (pun intended) when interacting with Social Links, it's especially notable with Joker, since, due to his circumstances, masks his true personality (the merciless and cheeky bastard who will style on his opponents) even from his closest friends, at least outside of a few events and the end of the game. Hell, the whole song "Beneath the Mask" is specifically about this very quality. He must really be a nightmare for any social worker, seeing as his social camouflage is impeccable.
Also, the idea of Joker putting on a mask for the dialogues with his confidants is reinforced with gameplay: if you have a Persona that corresponds with the confidant, you will get along with them better. That is basically Joker wearing a different mask (a different Persona, very much in line with Jung) for each of the people he works with.
This session set off red flags from the other side of this for me. I'm a chemistry grad student so when he went "hey help me with my research in exchange for candy and meditation tips" I immediately frowned at how unethical it is to have a student you're not paying, not even citing (because there's no way in hell he can cite a patient in his paper) help you with your paper.
But there's a reason these are called confidants not social links. Even when you make genuine friends they're always built on the foundation of a transaction: I work at your shop and you teach me stuff, I give you art inspiration and you draw skill cards ect. So really a counselor arcana probably should have set some alarm bells off from the start
I was so focused on the counseling red flags that I didn't even take a second to think how unethical this research would be too! So thanks for pointing that out, because wow. It's literally the worst on so many levels. lol
@@ThoughtBubbleYT the research subject and even methods would be fine but uh when taking ideas from a source you always need to cite them as well as crediting and/or compensating them. Giving them tasty snacks does not count. It's not on the level of his counseling gaffes but that's like saying lighting a place on fire is better than burning it down entirely
Oh definitely weird.
It will all be okay though since he'll just brainwash everyone into thinking this is all perfectly ethical.
I would be interested to see you break down Joker's other dialogue options, especially since-while some of them are deflecting and/or hiding-they also give a good look into some of Joker's emotional state. Joker is an incredibly put together person, yes; but there is a lot of pent up resentment and anger over the way he's been treated. You can see it when he asks Sojiro why he took him in. When Toranosuke Yoshida gently probes him about the injustices he's faced and all of his dialogue options are essentially "don't ask me about that. what does it matter to you?" Joker puts on a great face, and I do think that for the most part, he is very composed. But that hurt and anger is there and I'd be interested to hear about your take on that and how you might address it if you were counseling him.
There's also the matter that in order to progress in social links you have to say what the person wants to hear. When you think about it that means that Joker is always putting up a facade, becoming a person that his confidant wants. That's interesting from a psychological standpoint! Again, I know it's a game mechanic and every protagonist does this, but I still think it's engaging to look at how the character is presented to us as a whole-game mechanics and all-and use that to psychoanalyze the character.
Im 2 years late but there's one other moment I can think of that shows that stuff really does get to joker. At the moment in the diner when the original 4 phantom thieves decide on their name, right before this ann talks about how people were giving her a look like she doesn't belong and joker says something along the lines of "it always feels like this"
Maruki : So you think it's perfectly fine living the way you are?
Joker: I do, and I'm tired of pretending It's not.
That's definitely interesting, I really wonder why Joker thinks that way, since in other fiction and in real life, it's the opposite - "No, and i'm tired of pretending it is."
I'm literally using these videos as personal development for my provisional psychology hours
This comment literally just made my day. I'm glad I could help knock some hours out in a (hopefully) enjoyable way!
Figured Joker would be an interesting case because you, the player, can choose dialogue options, though I really wish there's an option to play the devil's advocate when discussing things with Maruki as Joker. Rather than riffing off what he says, it would serve as good foreshadowing of future conflict to "challenge" Maruki's view on things
Ooooooo, I agree. That would have been really cool and interesting.
i recall there being a couple options where you can cast doubt on things maruki says (though not when), but for obvious reasons they dont give as many points and not much really comes of them
@@ThoughtBubbleYT To be fair, you could cover it if/when you cover the actual Social Link.
Maruki: "Would you like to help me with my research?"
Joker: "Hmm... maybe."
Maruki: "I will increase your SP."
Joker: "You have my ear..."
Is Dr. Maruki trying to be a movie theater? Cause he's really projecting right now
Maruki's deal is definitely questionable and I think it may have been intentionally written that way to match up with some of the other adult confidants. These confidants start off more as some agreement rather than a normal social relationship, and are unethical and/or frowned upon by society. Think of a teenager helping out an ex-yakuza member with seedy jobs, calling their teacher for maid services, agreeing to essentially unregulated human experimentation to get drugs from a back alley doctor, and hanging out in a red light district to talk to a reporter. And for the most part, doing these confidants is portrayed as ultimately beneficial, in spite of the societal norms being violated.
I guess looking back on it I recognize the request as ethically wrong, but I personally didn't mind that much since I really enjoyed having those academic discussions with him on the nature of human cognition. I'd probably prefer it over Maruki going by the books and holding legitimate counseling sessions for the confidant with Joker, haha.
Honestly, though the counselor in me is screaming "that's bad!" I definitely agree that the way Atlus did it was a really cool and compelling way to tell the story, and the ethical breaches were fun little ways to raise red flags that something could be up for me earlier in the story. Though, I never expected what actually happened. lol
I’ve always been interested in looking deeper into joker. That’s probably the most regrettable thing here with maruki and jokers relationship. I wish it was less about maruki’s research and more about joker as a character. I think the game had such a potential for examining some of the negative effects events have had on joker. Considering that joker was falsely accused of a crime, thrown out my his parents, and treated like a criminal in his new life, it’s not far fetched to assume he’d have some sort of trauma. I’d also be interested in seeing how joker has some disconnect with his personality considering how he’s always wearing a mask around different people, “literally and metaphorically.” Basically I just wish the confidant was more about joker.
I had a feeling Dr. Maruki asking Joker to participate in research like that wasn’t ethical. Of course Joker was saying what he thinks Maruki wants to hear because that’s how you play the game. If you want to progress in the social link, you have to say what the other person wants to know, not just what you want to say. It’s a little annoying sometimes. I guess what I like the most about was that Maruki actually had some sympathy toward Joker for his situation. No other adult really does, even the ones who get closest to him (like Kawakami still calls him a “troublemaker” and a “problem child”). It would have been nice if Maruki gave Joker more advice about what to do going forward because even if Joker says he’s handling it well, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is.
Yes! I agree 100%, I loved that Maruki heard Joker's side of the story but I feel like he took it too much at face-value. And you know, I hadn't thought about social links being exclusively saying what the person wants to hear, but it makes so much sense and it shows us that Joker easily could have just been feeding him "good" answers to get this over with. Thank you for that insight, it's really dope. :)
High praise. Many people also mention that’s why you’re encouraged to have a persona with a matching arcana before starting a social link, because then the confidant will see in Joker something in common with his/her way of thinking.
And that last part of part of the reason why I thought Joker would have a Palace. He always has to be like the person every single person wants him to be. Joker is just saying what Maruki wants to hear. But Joker feels like he can’t show his true feelings to anyone. Joker always has to put on a different mask for every single person he meets.
Well, if you want the best reactions, you do, and that time is limited. That’s why the loading screens always warn you to take your time. Also, as the video said, it does makes sense that Maruki would ask to research Joker, but that does not mean it’s ethical since it involves quid pro quo and creates a conflict of interest.
@@ThoughtBubbleYT I always find it a little weird when people make a thing of 'needing' to be a yes man in this game, since I did fine just by being reasonably empathetic and never felt like I needed to be emotionally dishonest (compared to 3 where some of your slinks will do outright harmful shit and you're expected to go 'rock on my man' because the game is way less forgiving of 'wrong' options than 5). It could just be that the 'good' answers tend to overlap with what I think anyway (I gave a lot of affirming answers on Maruki's later ranks, not for points but because I genuinely thought similarly in certain aspects (not the willingness to override people's agency though, dear god)), but I like to play Joker as someone who, while very emotionally intelligent and making great use of it, isn't above speaking his mind in most circumstances (even if it's in a particular way calculated to be palatable to the other person). After all, the demarcating factor between a persona and a shadow is the conscious acceptance of what the shadow represents; every mask reflects *something* of the wearer, even if only a tiny remote part.
That said, yeah Maruki really ought to have tried reading between the lines more, though I guess it'd be hard for us to gauge where said lines are when we don't actually *see* Joker describing it himself lmao
This sort of interaction is part and parcel of being a Persona protagonist.
You should do a video on Joker's phycology. I think he is a well rounded person, but always puts on a facade in front of other people ( especially his confidants) and has some hidden trauma within him.
I find Joker interesting since he seems to have a clear personality despite being the player's avatar. For instance, I'd say a part of him is a bit of a troll when it comes to snarky humor.
Tatsuya or Minato would be way more interesting in that aspect
@@PrimeofPerfection I forgot that bit. It's a bit more subdued compared to Persona 4's Yu Narakaumi I think.
@@lezzei Oh hell yeah my boy Tatsuya, he'd be really interesting to take a dive into! Actually, all of the P2s' cast would be interesting since a lot involves daddy issues and all
@@lezzei Makoto Yuki is his canon name
I never really thought about it, since i knew Maruki being a confidant that we'd have to deepen our bond with him because that's the game, but proposing that joker help with the research is so...ugh. Like he's not even truly listening to Joker and just using him as a means to an end. "Seems you're handling this well, so anyways about ME and what I need from you." That wouldn't make me want to go back there if I was Joker.
But he did though, I think he only act like that toward Joker because of how "well put together" Joker is, as he never asks any of the other Phantom Thieves to help him with his research. Meanwhile being a phantom thief aside, Joker is able to perfectly deal with his problems of unjusted crime, everyone avoiding him and all that kinda allow Maruki to not see Joker as 1 of his patient (or whatever the word u use for the person who came to a councillor is) but more of a goal he want to achieve as well as a friend/like-minded person (especially in the whole changing heart regard). You can see it even more during his arc at the end of the game, where he didnt bother much with convincing other Phantom Thieves to accept his reality while he tries his damn best to get the approval from Joker
Exactly! It feels so disingenuous.
I dont think joker goes there for counseling. He goes there to help with maruki because he made A deal.
Im tryna say that joker goes there to help with maruki’s research and for maruki to help him with Gameplay and mental tricks not counciling
Joaquin To be fair, that deal is made after this counseling session. So while this is definitely a counseling session, the rest are for the research.
I think part of the reason Maruki’s so complimentary is due to how the school environment acts. Maruki will have heard the rumours and comments made by students and staff. Being one of very few allies Joker has in the city probably seemed very important to Maruki who just saw a kid being treated awfully by everyone around him. ‘Everyone else might think you’re a monster but I know you’re not’ kind of thing.
Personally I tend to be sarcastic with Maruki because it really emphasises the fact that Maruki doesn’t fully listen to what people say and tends to project his own thought process on their comments. It’s purely for my own amusement though. I just find it funny when Maruki says that he couldn’t have done all this without Joker’s support that he literally told him to give up on this exact dream a few months ago. Admittedly doing that is out of character for my supportive-to-a-fault Joker but I can’t help it.
I don't feel it was Sojiro didn't hear him out but was concerned Joker might let his sense of justice continue to lead him into trouble. It is a very the nail that sticks out gets hammered down mentality and Sojiro admits later he regrets taking that tone with Joker. He just didn't want to lead Joker into trouble by admitting he sympathized and understood it was total b.s. what happened. Rather he thougjt he needed to make sure J0ker knew society doesn't care about being fair and just, it cares about anything that might challenge its idea of reality. And he, Joker, was challenging that reality. So he better knock it off if he doesn't want more of the same from people who don't actually care about his wellbeing.
As I said, Sojiro regrets taking this tone with Joker but given his own circumstances you can understand why Sojiro felt he had to.
It actually adds to Sojiro's character when you look back at the conversation after you understand what he's been through.
@@shinigamimiroku3723 yeah, you can see he is trying hard to not get too attached and try to lead Joker in what he considers to be less self destructive direction. Keep your head down and just do what society expects you to. But in the end he becomes one of Jokers biggest supporters.
Wow this video is really well done, I remember going through the social link and thinking, "he's not all bad". But then when I reached the max level for his social link and he revealed that he only approached Joker because he saw him, Ryuji and Ann come out of the metaverse, I felt VERY betrayed. It's as if the whole relationship was based on a lie and it hurt personally. My brothers that were watching me play told me it wasn't that big of a deal, and it wasn't, but it really made me feel a certain way afterwards. It might just be me though.
I get that feeling. When he reveals his true intentions it feels so manipulative and while I’m normally happy with Jokers composure in those kind of scenario’s I’m a little irked that even at that point he doesn’t ask questions at that point.
I felt weird at like level 4 confidant when he stood up and started yelling ín the courtyard
After hearing your thoughts on this, I think Maruki's core distortion becomes clear. He thinks the ends justify the means.
He doesn't get that especially when it comes to counseling, mental health, and growth, the means are far more important than the ends. It is literally about the journey, and not the destination.
part of this is of course the conceit of the game, wherein he is a social link, but in universe, he is able to ignore the places where he oversteps the bounds of good counseling or professional conduct, because he believes it will let him help so many more people than he might hurt. and this is why he is, at the time of the game, a terrible counselor.
Thank you for calling out Maruki on his manipulation!!! I resent him so much just because everything attacked me so emotionally during third term but that doesn't mean I don't think he's a great character. He's a FANTASTIC character with so many layers and complexity.
I love seeing professional perspectives like this on fictional characters. This content is pure quality and deserves more attention.
Thank you so much! That means a lot!
I thought Maruki was ~attempting~ to use a Solution-Focused approach with Joker, but as you said, he was really just complementing, which is a big no-no, as that's not actually improving their self-esteem.
His research proposal made me throw my arms up lol! Maruki really comes across like a psychologist who has no appropriate education/training for counseling.
Yes I definitely agree he seemed like he was trying for something like solution-focused (which would honestly be a good choice especially in this school setting and the inherently brief nature of his tenure at Shujin), but it fell flat. I don't think he understands the difference between permitting the client to reach their own conclusions about their abilities and strengths so that it's more meaningful vs. just shouting it into the void. lol He should really have just stuck with research until he got way more counseling training.
"Everyone knows that it's mandatory for every single student in Shujin to go see Maruki."
Um... no it wasn't. It was only mandatory for those involved with the Kamoshida incident - or who were affected by Kamoshida personally - to go see Maruki. With everyone else (meaning Haru and Makoto to name a couple), it was on a voluntary basis.
Concerning the praise he heaps upon Joker. Disregarding how it would be if it was an actual therapy session in real life, it is interesting how games like this tend to really uplift the player character. While the 'world' as a whole has condemned Joker for his 'crime', the people he gets close to and see him for who he really is tends to appreciate and compliment him for who he is and what he does. That's the main takeaway I get when playing these kinds of games, and that's without me actually putting down much effort into helping out my fellow in game friends. I feel looked up upon, appreciated and respected, something I don't always feel in real life, which makes it feel to me as a player that within the game I have somewhere I belong. It is interesting when I notice how games want to build me up in that way.
While I think that these kinds of games generally makes me feel good, it is also interesting and perhaps even more striking when games does the opposite and calls me out for my behaviour. Life is Strange had a moment when it criticized my characters behaviour and it really stood out to me. I love thinking about this stuff :)
Hey I think you might be interested in a game called “psychonauts”. It’s about going into peoples minds and exploring their self conscious, the main character kinda acts like a therapist or counsellor to the people who mind he enters. It starts out with you exploring the minds of your summer camp counsellors but later in the game you explore the minds of mental asylum patients. Each level is extremely unique and fun to play through (expect the last level though, that one’s just plain chaos), the sequel for it is coming out this year so it would be pretty topical to talk about. You can buy the game off the PlayStation for about $10 so it’s a good deal around!.
Oh really? It's that cheap? I've heard of it but never actually knew what it was about. hm. I'll definitely have to check that out! Thank you!
I swear, every time I come back to the game I find something new and it somehow manages to keep getting darker and darker.
@@blakebrown5855 But also really funny and creating in lots of aspects. Like every mind you visit and the genius dialogs.
some of the fandom think that if we ever got to see joker elaborate on his feelings ( if his silent protagonist mask was removed), that he would be a little unstable. I say this bc if we examine how he gets in relationships with everyone, all of them treat joker like a therapist! maybe bc he's the main character and he's the source we need to see what happens with the characters, it seems a little wrong though. Everyone, from sojiro and ann, uses him to vent their problems and get solutions from him. Part of me wished we got to see more relationships where joker was the one to ask to relax or get help instead of the reverse.
On 16:31, personally, I think Maruki is admiring Joker because up until meeting him, he has never met someone who has ever lived life without desire. Like from the way Maruki talks and how his palace looks, you could assume that Maruki is able to get those answer he need to fix people, like he gets the rest of the phantom thieves to tell him everything he needed to now, and the the Thieves are pretty good at masking who they are but he got them to tell him everything. Which is a feat in its self.
Can we also take a moment to appreciate how Maruki went into Leblanc knowing that Joker lived there, and then told Sojiro that he worked with Joker in a clinical setting?
I live in Japan and don't know a thing about counseling, but i saw that contract part differently.
I assumed Maruki at that point is talking to joker as a student, not as a patient.
As soon as bell rang and counseling ended, so does his relationship as Maruki's patient, and now he's offering to "hire" the Joker as his "assistant" for his research.
and to be fair, all the member of phantom thieve only consult him once as well (or at least we can see the scenes only once per playthrough).
Gotta be honest “I love having more sp” unironically sums up a part (albeit, a smaller part) of the reason why Maruki is so effed up. Because game mechanics.
I just want to say that I love this channel and this series in particular. I'm in my Sophomore year of Psychology and I have supremely enjoyed learning from these videos. I love that Dr. Maruki is a terrible and great example of a counselor all in one. I love Persona 5 and its exploration of psychology. In essence, thanks. This channel is awesome
That really means a lot. :) I'm really glad you enjoy it! I hope you're enjoying your program and wish you all the best!
Dr. Maruki is one of my favorite characters in this game! Such awesome character.
Even though I rant about him sometimes, he's one of my favorite characters in all of gaming. So well written (though not a great counselor lol).
What you mention about revealing prior knowledge later into sessions comes into play for the end of Maruki's (social link) confidant. Joker can have a negative, or distrustful reaction to Maruki revealing so late about thinking Joker to be a phantom thief by asking him essentially how he plans to manipulate him with what might be blackmail given all the evidence he uses.
Most other confidants with no strong evidence guess but Maruki reveals a strong connection to an incident that could put Joker in police sights when explaining how he came to the conclusion.
Gosh I love this series of videos you do. They give me a new perspective on these scenes. It's kind of odd to think about in retrospect, but when I played the game, I was in this zone of acceptable breaks from reality, where I didn't think twice about anything that had to do with a game mechanic. For example, in this scene, what Maruki is saying after the session did not strike me as odd because I am so used to the confidant game mechanic at this point that I simply accepted it as "If I progress the confidant to help with (reason), I get (reward)." However, what makes your videos so interesting, I'm taken out of the gameplay perspective and put into a "what if this was the real world" perspective. I agree with you, Maruki asking the protagonist to help with his research is inappropriate and possibly even predatory in a sense. If this was the real world, and knowing what we know in 3rd semester, Maruki has obviously A. found his "a-ha!" moment in finding out the identity of the phantom thieves and how they could help with his goal. B. realized he has leverage over them, however small, and can use that to satisfy his own ends. Maruki ages like a fine wine in the world of villains when you really sit here to think about it, huh?
Also at 12:35 you point out how Maruki is projecting onto Joker and really just, laying the praise on thick. Trust me, you're not the only one who thinks that's kinda weird, counseling session or not. I don't know if you've played Persona 3 or 4 but I will tell you... This sort of thing is almost its own persona related trope. The only reason it didn't strike me as weird because for 3 straight games now all the characters in the game act like the protagonist is just the most mature, level-headed, coolest dude ever, to the point of using that perception as a way of lampshading and straight up filling in plot holes in some of the games.
Anyway, great content as always! Looking forward to more content soon!
Thank you so much! I'm glad that you're enjoying them, and it's always nice to see you in the comments!
And I've played P4 and half of P3 when I was really young (probably younger than I should have been lmao) and now that you mention it, I can definitely see how it's kind of a trope at this point. lol
In a sense, both are manipulative but do it differently. Joker obviously just says what Maruki wants to hear only to get more confidant perks and healing items and by speaking his mind or true thoughts ( like pain equals getting betrayed, which there is no musical notes / rank up sounds for as that is actually the 'right' answer but the game won't allow it ), doesn't get the payoff that the game or Maruki is looking for. It's almost like the game encourages the player to make Maruki go mad by helping with his research, which is true. That's the only way to get the third semester, which is really something I wished didn't happen. Like I wanted the 3rd semester to unlock regardless of Maruki's confidant. It's truly an unjust and unfair game, just like the narrative wants you to believe. That even the nice people are putting you into situations that you don't really want to be in. Then again you can just not do his confidant and get the vanilla version of the game but for those who have played the original, they don't want to do that so they are forced to do Maruki's social link. This is the only social link besides the ones pre-planned in game like Igor's and Sae's that requires you the player to be put in a situation that you have really no choice in the matter.
Bottom line is that Maruki isn't really a counselor let alone a good one to begin with, more so an analytical researcher that was forced to change professions just because his girlfriend lost her memories of him due to his persona and that his funding was cut short by Shido. Then again the school itself is to blame in the long run for not actually getting a competent counselor in the first place but that shouldn't come as a great shock by this point.
I’m noticing that all councillors really like to move their hands around while they talk
I do it a lot, I shape things with my hands when I'm talking lmao or point like I'm seeing the convo as well as having it? Maybe counseling is my lost calling 🤣
if you really want to go all out with this then you need to look at every single one of maruki & joker’s sessions throughout his confidant because oh my god i want you to fully analyse it so bad. i’m sorry if that’s asking a lot but i would really love to see your perspective on the entirety of maruki’s time with joker.
An inability to detach himself when necessary, I guess. Maybe that's what he really meant by "I've never been great at giving up when I should."
I can't wait to hear your thoughts on Maruki's session with Sumire... Having gone through therapy to work on my depression and BPD I found that scene absolutely infuriating. :D Love your P5R videos, by the way!
Oh trust me. I'm going to have a lot of words about that scene. A LOT. And thank you so much! :) I appreciate it!
I love your videos! Your insights on this game makes the story even better. The whole part of him being researcher, not a counselor blew my mind! Thanks for doing this work!
I would say for this conversation you should have picked the "best" responses for the confidant to talk about but as you said it comes to the same end.
I am glad that you are talking about the manipulating tactics that Maruki uses because he always gave me a prickly feeling. I was a victim of a narcissist mother, so when I started seeing the information gathering tactics he was using I suspected him immediately.
Can you go over Joker's potential emotional status next? I always found it suspicious that he was always so stable through all of these events. Plus some of the conversation options do come off as really selfish or overly underestimating the situation.
I feel like Maruki would be quite the good counselor in real life, as long as he fixed his problem with confidentiality. I feel like many counselors are blocked off from being normal with students. I don't trust my school's counselors because they don't radiate comfortable vibes. Maruki makes sure that those coming into sessions feel comfortable. Maruki would be a bad counselor for many, but I would also say that he would be pretty powerful as a counselor to people that find counselors unapproachable. A counselor that tries to connect with students is better than one blocked off from them.
I find your videos quite interesting, as I for one have little knowledge on counseling as a profession. I acknowledge that my conclusions are purely personal, and I say these not to discount the truths that you provide. Thank you for making these. And thank you for reading this fellow viewers.
(Oh, and in regards to the research, that is terribly wrong on Maruki's part. But on the other hand, people in his world are having their hearts being changed by a group of Metaverse roaming teens, so I'd give him that.)
Honestly, I agree. In the real world and sans the persona powers he has great potential. He wouldn't be for everyone (no counselor is though) but I think he could be great! We would just need to send him through an intensive ethics course and have him be HEAVILY supervised at first because that's really his downfall. lmao
For me the issue with school counselors is that they focus too much on your classes and college and very little on your psychological health and well being. And real-life counselors often project their reality onto you and lie about it. Heck, one counselor told me she never had ANY negative thoughts and thought that anybody my age (20) that still had them is ill and needs treatment or goes to an asylum like Arkham Asylum. I couldn't be honest after she said this comment because it proves that she's unable to hear people out and rather make the call herself. Instead I just said what she wanted to hear gradually.
Honestly, the only reason to which I actually don't complaint about asking Ren about helping him out is because of plot. Sometimes stories (because of the ways that they are told or mechanics) write themselves into a corner, so they do sacrifices (like breaking character), and I think that's what happened here. There is no way to avoid that out, a Social Link is about intimate relationship, and the only way for having Maruki as an SL without breaking rules is for him to not be a counselor in the first place, which I think might brake the story
In terms of story I actually love it way more that it's unethical (even though it makes the counselor part of me upset) because this shows if you're familiar with counseling in a really subtle way that Maruki is kinda sketchy even though he seems so wonderful. And the writers use these ethical breaks to show that he has his own agenda past what would actually be best for the students. Which is so interesting and well-done imo.
@@ThoughtBubbleYT The fact that he does things unethical in order for (in his point of view) get to a good ending for everyone also shows how much he was damaged before the game even started. He is a "means to an end" man, that is able to manipulate his way through adversity with superficial elegance, but in actuality through deeply flawed means in order for self-satisfaction and "the satisfaction of everyone else."
Also thanks for addressing my comment! :D
Wouldnt it have been cool if there were a shadow maruki scene where he basically counciled himself
I would have loved that. Can we retcon that into P4?
I wonder if confidants were more like s links in p4 would this be any different. Like I feel that dealing that he does here happens in all of p5 confidants. While p4 and 3 are more personal. No offense to any p5 confidants. Basically would it be more slower to the research. But not years cause we don't have much time. Also I think akinaris changes in mentality in p3 would be interesting to see in a video like this one
Yo one day we’re going to start the video and hear “I’m John and I have a masters degree in clinical mental health counseling”
It’s weird but also a bit fascinating how due to the tragedy in his life makes him view reality different where he sees the worlds either evil and he needs to save people from it or is his perfect world and everyone is happy which is sooo wrong. Also yes I called it in the community tab that he would do unethical stuff with joker to get his goal. You can see why he has a palace with his distorted views. Great video.
You definitely did call it. lol When I read your comment I didn't even know what to say without giving away that you were literally right on the money. lmao
ThoughtBubble lol thanks it was funny, I did say something like he would do something unethical but thanks to your awesome video I actually got to see what because I don’t know counseling ethics.
Very entertaining series. Thank you for your videos :) It would be interesting to see your input on the therapy-sessions in Until Dawn at some point. I don't believe they probably has as much to go on as Maruki does, but it would be fun to hear your take on them
Of course! I'm glad you enjoy it! And I've never played Until Dawn, but I'll try to look into them at some point because it sounds like they could be interesting!
Since you did a video on Sumire, would you be interested in doing one on a more controversial character- Yukari Takeba from Persona 3? I’d like some insight on her story (which includes her arc in The Answer that is infamous among many)
from someone with an academic background
Edit: I’ll admit that I loved her overall story, including the stuff in The Answer, but many people claim it’s unrealistic/ degradation for no reason.
Hello! I love your videos on Maruki a lot, and was wondering what you think the best educational route would be to become a high school counselor. Currently I am a psychology major and that is my (hopefully) final destination.
Oooooo, okay and I'm sorry in advance that this will be a long reply but that's just because I'm a big nerd and love talking about this. Believe it or not while I'm getting my Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, I actually also have a concentration in School Counseling so that I can have the ability to get both my Counseling License and my School Counseling License (which are different processes)!
So, you have a couple options. There are a lot of universities that have School Counseling specific Master's Programs which you can get a Masters of Arts in School Counseling. This would be a two-year degree and this will provide you with all the resources that you would need to become a school counselor in a High School, Middle School, or Elementary School (even though you're most interested in high school they'll probably have you get both the K-6 and 7-12 school counselor certifications just so you can be as flexible as possible when entering the job market). A good way to find these kinds of programs is through the CACREP (the accrediting body that essentially oversees a lot of counseling programs of all kinds and verifies that you'll get a valuable Master's degree) website's directory. So if that's the route you want to pursue then this would be perfect!
Your other option is to do what I did by going into a Clinical Mental Counseling Program that integrates the required School Counseling coursework into it, just in case you're also interested in working in a mental health field some day and want that additionally flexibility once you get your Master's. These are a bit less common but still definitely out there so this might be worth looking into as well! :) I'll leave it at that, and I hope this helped a bit! If you have any more questions about this kind of stuff feel free to DM me on Twitter and I'll try to get back to you as soon as I can!
ThoughtBubble thank you so much for replying! I think after reading through your comment I might follow what you did since it’ll be more flexible like you said. Thank you so much for your help!
Of course! I'm happy to help and I wish you all the best! It's an awesome field to go into. :)
I always love these videos!! Ive been really into your P5 content recently, and I'm going to watch tons more!!
I'm curious, specifically for ThoughtBubble himself but also for anyone who sees this: whats your headcanon for Joker's personality?
I view him as very quiet and stoic, yet with a snarky and playful side he only shows to people he's close to. Of course, he'd have super strong morals and a sense of justice that makes him always do whats right, regardless of how others view it, even if it hurts him.
Externally, he would try to do whatever people asked him to avoid suspicion, but on the inside, the burning rage that stems from his mistreatment fuels the Trickster into taking action. I also feel like he'd secretly be actually very hurt and depressed by his mistreatment, just hiding it behind a cool demeanor to avoid people worrying. Like how studying in the school library actually gives you extra Guts early on because of how difficult it would be to focus when you hear people insulting you when they know damn well you can hear every single word they say.
in other words: Joker is a very sad good boy, and for the love of god, give him a therapist who ISN'T mostly just trying to use him for experiments. Doctor Maruki, I love you to death, but you should probably go back to school for counseling for a lil' bit.
Removing the research plot twist aside, your review for dr. Maruki is great.
Interestingly enough, on 2nd my playthrough when Maruki first introduced himself to the trio, he urges counseling, but says it’s not mandatory; then proceeds to incentivize it with an SP boost…and snacks
Hey I'm a fan, just wanted to say that I really appreciate this kind of videos and I think the dialogue choices you picked were great in order to see specific reactions from Maruki.
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed! And while they weren't all the best reactions for the social link, I personally liked them so I'm glad you did too! :)
Great video! Your videos quality is amazing for a channel this big, I can't wait to see what you'll come up with and see you grow!
Thank you so much, that really means a lot. :) Trust me, we have A LOT of plans for the future!
great video! really well spoken and I enjoyed it a lot since I recently finished P5R and was wondering a lot about marukis counseling. Keep up the great work!
Would love to see your thoughts on the other Joker counseling sessions/ Maruki conversations!
Yeah this is why his next gig is a taxi driver. After it all came out I think even he realized he wasn’t cut out for the job.
Don't worry guys, the first think Maruki did will do with his power is change the ethical codes, so if you think he did something wrong then it's only because you aren't living in an ideal world. In an ideal world Maruki decides what is and isn't ethical.
As always thanks for the interesting take on the session. It's refreshing seeing how someone with your background's opinion differs from mine
I wonder what happens when he does get his master’s degree
He will be a free elf.
It would be interesting to hear about how Karl Jung's theories are treated in modern psychology
Also I noticed you look into the psychology of characters so if possible you should look into the characters of Danganronpa since many of them (especially the cast for Danganronpa 2) are heavily shaped by their pasts whether by decisions they made, family situations or health problems they cant control. I'd love to know your opinion on them since some of them can be HEAVILY misinterpreted without proper knowledge on psychology
Ooooo, I've heard of Danganronpa but never played. It's definitely on my list of games to look into.
"Social Link...Go?"
I think if you really wanted to get the best review your best shot would be the one that gets as much social point as possible since that’s how you usually max out a confidant and all maxed confidants is the “cannon” ending. Idk if the ones you choose happened to be those choices but it’s just a thought
I'm from the UK, and you mentioned not knowing how school counselling works outside of America. I specifically went to Catholic schools and the counselor at those schools were the Chaplain and a Priest respectively. I'd say their role seemed to be somewhere between Maruki's role in P5R, the description you gave of American school counselors with a sprinkling of religion thrown in. There was little career focus but it also was more social and emotional support and maybe pointing students to actual mental health resources if needed.
I don't know if things are different at non-religious schools either, although I did have "friendship counselling" at my primary school which wasn't religious and was honestly an awful experience. But I have fond memories of my high school chaplain. I think, looking back, I really would have benefited from a mental health counselor but just being heard really was helpful. My last session before I graduated, she gave me one of the many matryoshka dolls she kept in her room. I have a small collection of my own now :)
Sorry this was a long comment, I've been binging your content all night. I really appreciate the care you take with these videos and your insights.
These videos are really nice and educational for someone who wants to get to work into psychology/mental health care.
I also feel like youre such a calm and respectful counselor. Lik it makes me feel like i just wanna switch counselours to you cause you have a trustful aura to me
Thank you! That really is so nice and I appreciate it! :) And every counselor has a different style and vibe to them which is my FAVORITE part of this profession.
Haha. I have a Masters in Mental Health Counseling myself. Got it 5 years ago and then ended up working in health insurance instead lol. These videos sometimes flash me back to my school days a little.
I hope it brought back good memories!
@@ThoughtBubbleYT yea it's nostalgic in a way.
This actually helps me with writing characters in my own story, it helps me understand psychology just a little bit more which can lead to better characters.
5:25 really? I never experienced that during my counseling (around 10 years old), I was there to talk about my problems & experiences with life and instead to do so
It's definitely not anxiety provoking for everyone, and I'm glad it wasn't for you! :) But there definitely are a lot of people who get very nervous, especially for their first counseling session!
School counseling?
I wish we had that here in Norway
While I agree on the critiques, for joker, to me, while it definitely breaks the code of ethics, I'm ok with it because tekemi does the exact same thing but in the strictly medical field (plus from what I remember, her whole medicine selection is "sketchy but effective" drugs that helps the theives in the palaces, but she force joker to be her Guinea pig if he wants the meds. To me, tho maruki have and earned a Palace at the end of the day, least before third semester, he never injected strange Medicine and tentacles into people
(How sick would it be if tekemi and maruki, or any duo of people co owned a Palace lol. Maybe they could bring back akechi's Palace mixed with the theives den as apparently that's basically joker's Palace lol right before maruki's (make the third semester have substance lol), maybe that'd tie up any and all akechi related loose threads lol)
great video, really interesting, why didn t i got to see that earlier ? could you do the same thing about rezero subaru ? i de love that
Does he go to counseling in the show? I haven’t seen it!
@@ThoughtBubbleYT actually, not but his psychological development is really interesting, but yeah I just noticed you only do counseling stuff reactions, so never mind, too bad, sorry.
This is off topic but i was wondering what do you think of morgana charater arc? The "i want to be human/im a human" and the feeling useless part? Cause when i watch the lets plays, i feel the "feeling useless" part is just.... feel off. Like its just there to found a way to fit haru in. The fight between morgana and "rijuy" is werid to me too. So i'll like to hear it from you. What do you think of it? Does it feel "narutel" to you? What do you think of morgana as a charater? ;v;?
Hm, I've seen a lot of people bring Morgana up lately so I'd have to give that a bit more thought!
I understand that it's important for a councilor to not meet up with patients for anything but counseling, but if that's the case how does a counselor actually get all the information they need when all they have to go off of is what the patient chooses to tell them?
How do councilors deal with the Jokers in the real world who know just what to say to a counselor and therefore can't actually get help?
Maruki being so genuine made the choice so difficult for me. I felt like Maruki wasn't doing anything that wasn't a positive for all involved. The his flaw of wanting to "fix" everyone was what make me really think. Even so, I still think Maruki does a good job of making counseling sessions inviting.
Yes! It’s 7 pm and I’ve been waiting for this all day!
Also first?
Yay! Well I hope you enjoyed it! :) And yes! You were first!
I feel like this channel is about to blow up
Here's hoping! :)
You should analyze Maruki and his way of thinking and how he wants to use his research of Cognitive Psience.
I’m rather glad you explain how you were going to do with the choices because that’s what I’ve been wondering since, I first saw your first videos following the sessions. And it’s actually really interesting to see your thoughts on this, but something tells me after this video you needed a comforting snack.
Also 19:53 low humor anyone?
Oh trust me, I got some nice comfort snacks after this. lmao!
Had a question: what are the ethical considerations of compelling Joker to attend therapy? Obviously, Maruki is being dishonest when he says they're required to come, but can a juvenile be forced to attend therapy? Can a juvenile on probation or parole? What are the ethics of counseling someone who's not there of their own volition?
Court ordered therapy
Tho he was gone in-game, remembering joker reminiscing akechi's death in shido's Palace later that night while reflecting on the gloves, and his thoughts on akechi at the jazz bar on the day he's going back home; it really feels like missed opportunity to atleast find maruki's office where he did his thing with "kasumi" and mention akechi's death as maruki is a confidant(plus it'd help me understand that akechi died in the first place in the metaverse, and why he'd think to bring akechi into his new reality. As is I do love the royal content, tho it's kinda sloppy in just a few areas lol
I feel like some of the dialogue was altered in translation, which is probably why some things seem off, as I seen a few of the Japanese scenes, and he seems a little bit better, not a lot, but not as bad as in the US version
I feel like that would make sense, there's always some nuance lost in the translation.
@@ThoughtBubbleYT I should probably check out more of the live translation playthrough i seen a while back, as someone who understands Japanese played through it when it first came out, translating along the way
Calling maruki and joker's dual relationship "gross" after komushida's Palace would make any newcomer be like "*knuckles voice* oh no" xD
Any chance you might do a video on Morgana?
I haven't put a lot of thought into it honestly but it's not outside the realm of possibility!
Can I have you as my counsellor please? Maybe you’re not finished but your videos are great and I love your explanations.
For me a counceler should craft a bond with the client to easly open the client get back on their feet or boost their morals like how i was in a terrible plase for a wile until i found a teacher who came to my aid and helped me fix myself from a death wishing sad sack that self depricates himself to a confident happy young man so i can easly bounce from any spot to a higher one in life where the sky is the limit and that inspired me to want to help others to find their happy place in the future so that is my take on it
Prior to getting to this point I literally had experience with this kind of thing the week before, and immediately I was thinking "what are you doing!? You are a terrible therapist, why are you getting this involved in his life!?"
But, if the councilor's job is not to solve problems for people, how does one go about the desire to "fix" people? What if that's the only meaning one sees in their life?
If I'm being honest, I think the intent of the two situations was to give Maruki a reason to get involved. If we completely separate the two sides of the relationship, eventually the counseling side peters out to nonexistence and the sessions are more about research. He even nearly forgets a few times about the mental training too. That may have actually been written that way intentionally.
*slight kinda sort of not really SPOILERS* 26:41-27:09 I guess that's what I love about where Maruki ended up in the True Ending. I kinda want to see your take on Maruki's character journey as a whole, since him not being a particularly good counselor was purposefully done in service for the events of the third semester. Honestly that final section legit brought tears to my eyes when I played it.
Oh trust me, I want to do a full Character Case study on Maruki.
Joker here
Hi Joker! How was counseling with Maruki?
@@ThoughtBubbleYT it was nice
can someone clarify exactly why it's against the code of ethics for Joker to perform Psience with Maruki? Is it just that it places a mental burden on Joker feeling like he should reciprocate the help he's receiving, or is it for some other reason?
Hello! This is an awesome question and while I brought this up, I suppose I could have been a bit more specific as to why it's so bad. So dual relationships or non-professional relationships between a counselor and client this could lead to the possibility that this relationship could blur the boundaries between client and counselor which could in turn lead the counselor having the ability to abuse their power over or even exploit the client because of this new-found relationship, create conflicts of interest in which the counselor will no longer be an unbiased third party. Really it's a rule that's in place ensure that no harm come to the client and so that the counselor doesn't become so enmeshed in the client's life that they can no longer work with them without emotional bias in the situation which could in worst case scenarios lead to the counselor to not be able to make further questionable or unethical decisions while working with the client.
We can even see Maruki just within moments of forming this dual relationship trying to leverage Joker's insight to his own advantage. Imagine what kind of stuff he could do to someone who thinks he has their best interest at heart as not only a mental health professional but also as a friend or colleague. It's disconcerting stuff, which is why all counselor have this rule in particular beaten into their heads with only a couple special unavoidable circumstances being exceptions. I hope that makes a bit more sense!
ThoughtBubble ah! Thank you for clarifying
My pleasure!
Also, it's unrelated to Persona, but imagine this: a person who is in need of emotional support and guidance finds a friend that's really good at doing the job of a counselor, and while they don't work as one, they act as one for their friend. Would that be ethically okay, and would a romantic relationship between the two be okay after the issues with the first person have been resolved?
I'm just curious, because my favourite pairing in all media has that dynamic and I really don't want for it to turn out unhealthy
Ever thought of talking with Dr. K the streamer
I'm personally not too familiar with him!
@@ThoughtBubbleYT he focuses on mental health with gamers. He's really interesting
I'll have to check him out!
Honestly, in a lot of ways i get really skeeved out by the confidant with maruki. It feels really manipulative. Coming on so heavy with the compliments, hiding that he knew about the phantom thieves the whole time... plus the way he pulls the relationship into some sort of friendship that tbh feels inappropriate for a school counselor towards a student. Tbf, some of that applies to other confidants. A lot of them are sketchy to varying degrees. And kawakami is your teacher so thats weird too (this is not getting into if you romance her or how incredibly uncomfortable it is for her to do the maid act at you, thats its own beast). But with kawakami (ignoring the stuff i mentioned), by the end of the confidant shes moving the relationship back to more student-teacher, although with a special bond as well. And her own circumstances mean that the power dynamic isnt clear cut either. Shes your teacher, but you also discovered something about her she wants kept secret and youre paying her money. The dynamic is weird and it feels like its supposed to be weird (again, except for the uncomfortable sexual and romantic stuff which i mainly ignore).
Marukis confidant doesnt have that kind of equalizer in it. If anything, at rank 10 you learn the relationship was even more unequal than you thought since maruki knew joker had access to the metaverse the whole time. And then for him to basically take advantage of the trust that joker and the other phantom thieves have given him to basically steal power from them to do his actualization... it feels like a huge betrayal. The thieves defeated yaldy and everything was supposed to be over. The metaverse was supposed to be gone. But Maruki just slipped into Yaldy's place immediately. He acts more benevolently and also isnt trying to end the world but he is trying to control people.
Maruki has good intentions but he acts so manipulatively and justifies it as for the greater good.
as someone who’s been seeing a psychologist for almost three years, joker’s relationship with maruki felt really inappropriate. talking about himself during the monologue, asking for help with research, and hanging out with him outside of sessions (like at the buffet) gave me red flags while i was playing.
Once again, great job man. I didn't even notice how uncomfortable it would be to have a councilor randomly stop you after a first session and pretty much go "hey help me with my research dont ask why." Also out of curiosity, do you plan on working on being a school councilor or one outside of a school area (or both)?
So it's funny you ask that because while my degree will technically be in Clinical Mental Health Counseling I actually have a concentration in School Counseling! So this way, since getting a school counseling license and a professional counseling license are completely separate processes I've set myself up to be eligible for both! So I'm interested in working as a mental health counselor outside of the schools (hopefully with children and adolescent populations, but I'd be more than happy to work with adults as well) for a while once I get out of my Master's program and then I hope to transition to working as a school counselor. :)
@@ThoughtBubbleYT wow, that's awesome!
Can you elaborate on what is ethically wrong with nonprofessional interactions? I know their relation is very transactional here but what if they want to be friends and help each other that way? Also he got Joker's permission for help with the research and I don't see a problem here. I hope I'm not some moral deviant haha.
The biggest problem with Maruki is that he's way too nice. Sure he's manipulative, but he wants everyone to not feel pain and suffering.
440 views O_o