KeepassXC autofill doesn't work on Wayland, so I am trying to switch over to using the browser Addon, still using X11 btw. It works fine in Firefox, but not too well in other browsers.
No this is incorrect XWayland is required to support apps that are either abandoned, no longer being developed or will never be overhauled to Wayland. I think if XWayland can run most/all Xapps then it'll be ready because at that point xorg is not doing anything special anymore.
A more logical replacement of X would be to keep the xlib protocol, for the most part, and gut out the entire Xserver replacing it with a new redone system. In other words a new system from the ground up, but still using the same API/function calls of X. This would have made the migrations work basically ZERO, with no need to rewrite tookits like Qt, Gtk, etc.. And here is were it gets completely crazy, most people don't realize that Wayland is NOT new windowing system/server, Wayland basically is just a new "protocol", i.e. a rewrite of xlib. In fact, if people would take the time to investigate they would realize that the Waylanf compositor(the replacement for X window) is officialy a " reference implementation" ... meaning just an "example", not an end-all. All of that time spent reinventing just a protocol, could have been better spent focusing solely on making a new windowing system(not just a reference implementation) and keeping the same API i.e. "xlib"
Can I show remote programs over SSH without hassle? Are all the desktop recording issues fixed? Does Wayland finally support all the stuff X can in general? X for me has no problems, so I happily stick with it.
I am a Linux Mint user and a GIMP user, so I am not going to be in a hurry to jump to Wayland. As of right now, it isn't going to do anything for me that X11 doesn't.
I agree, It's just not time to drop xsessions in GNOME. Wayland still needs more time in the oven before it's ready, there are still some features that x supports that Wayland doesn't. It seems to me they spent to much time developing for new technologies like Display link and independent fractional scaling for multiple displays, without making sure the legacy features and technologies still worked under the Wayland protocol. They should have started with he legacy and worked their way up.
Its never ready by design, things like X11 Forwarding is missing by design. Things are more sectioned off, etc. You need multiple other solutions on your system such as pipewire to overcome what wayland lacks. Meanwhile no-one can give me a good reason why I should care as an X11 user. Yes X11 is old and renders in unpredictable unreliable ways, but that has been long solved by compositors and the DE's so you only really notice it when none are involved. In practise X11 does what it needs to for me and has features I need that wayland doesn't. Wayland has not a single feature I want that X11 doesn't. So for me the choice between them is very obvious. I used to be hyped for wayland thinking it would solve the buginess of the linux desktop but that was years ago. Since we got proper AMD/Intel mesa drivers which dont have that buginess so I know its just nvidia who can't get their act together on that one.
There's a lot of work to create all the features and fix all the bugs with too few people to do the job. X needs to remain until these things are done.
Wayland needs to be out in users system to find more issues and/or prioritize them, but should not be the only option before bugs are squashed and needed features are finished. There must remain an option for X for those who require certain functions.
WHAT !? I would never give up X11Forwarding.. The Wayland protocol/compositor doesn't work for me, it should be a choice as it has always been until it was first shoved down peoples throats with gnome.. FREE (freedom) and Open Source right ? It even ruins gnome, if your into that type of thing. I don't play the window manager game too much trouble, I can be more than happy with old school X11. As per the great Google Wayland supposedly "reduces latency, improves security and offers better performance over Xorg", Tom show me that concept in action. You would know, how does it effect video rendering ? Maybe its for people that want/need to enhance GPU performance on linux. So why run it on an underpowered pi ? Help me.
@@cavummusictheoryreally depends on use case, I could do all my business stuff (for the most part some required workarounds) flawlessly on Wayland but spinning up a game was a nightmare (Nvidia). I'm rooting for Wayland though, modernizing such a huge component of desktop Linux is more important than people think.
@@hopelessdecoy i do literally EVERYTHING on wayland. all sorts of creative and productive activities, play games, very heavy tasks, ive had minor issues here and there but theyve never affected the full experience of it all, which im fine with.
That's it, im going to convince my parents again to switch from GNOME to KDE or even Cinnamon, idk, due to this nonsense. GNOME can't even fix gtk4 scrolling bugs and it's been a two years
While I know Wayland is the future, you can't shoot yourself in the foot if the other shoe isn't fully laced up yet. Wayland isn't ready to fully replace X11 so trying to scare people into moving to this new things will cause alot of issues that users won't be prepared to solve.
X11 goes greatly underappreciated, but I'm content to move to Wayland when, if ever, it is a viable alternative. Currently, it is so far from being ready, that I suspect the Cosmic DE will be complete, very few people will even remember Rust ever existed and Nvidia will have fully open-source drivers, by the time Wayland is finally ready to supplant X11.
It depends on exaclty what you mean. Both lmde and xfce use gtk rather than qt libraries (lxqt is essentially lxde ported to qt). And gnome the organisation, is (or at least used to be) the primary developer of gtk. But as far as I'm aware, neither lmde nor xfce have any dependencies on gnome the desktop environment (except when those have been added by the distro).
First step to making sure Wayland works fully is to give enough push to developers who still think that X11 will be there forever and there's no need to bother with porting for another decade or two.
@@engiecat705 Totally agree! The message is clear: port your applications to Wayland NOW! The future has come! Now is the time to solve the remaining issues for Wayland adoption, and these issues will only be fixed with the Wayland porting process.
I'm rooting for Wayland, people need to remember languages, programming practices and devs all unfortunately die eventually. If you don't modernize then no one will know how something works. I mean X11 is open sourced and has tons of people defending it but I don't see anyone picking up the X12 project.... Use x11 but back Wayland
IDK was thinking about moving back to Arch but then THrought: I wonder if they may force me to move to wayland on some XFCE update. (not likley BTW that the next XFCE will support it) Alos remember that Compiz willnot run on wayland however maybe wayfire will do the same thing. IDK. Good video idea switched....
X11 ain't going nowhere. Since wayland (from what i understand) is somewhat dependent on X11 no? Just like pipewire/pulseaudio/jack discussions? I actually removed pipewire from my opensuse tumbleweed, because i couldn't get any decent latency. Switch to pulse+Jack. Problem solved. So, nah...i rather stick with a good old implementation that works 99% of the time. I don't see, nor have any issues with X11. AMD gpu.
Surprised you didn't talk about how KDE is handling Wayland & X11 for Plasma 6, which is as balanced as one can hope to be. Really hope when Plasma 6 comes out, gaming will be better & other missing features (i.e. screen recording + audio on Discord) will work. I think Valve got their Gamescope to work with Wayland, but I haven't tested yet. I need to fully utilize my 144Hz ultrawide, as it's paired with my DualUp. Also, Cosmic is Wayland-only. I hope they'll be able to push NVIDIA to properly support Wayland.
Although the GNOME team may not be able to erase all traces of X11 code from the project, I'm sure they could disable the session and remove enough of the core X11 code to completely break it aka so you couldn't enable it with some hidden config. They could do such an update today. So to say they are just bluffing to force everyone else's hand is silly
Its gotten to the point Wayland works better for me then X11.. maybe due to being on AMD IDK but sure many other folks are in the same boat.. X11 hasn't seen meaningful updates in over a decade and they are discovering 30+ year old bugs in it.. time for Nvidia to get their sh*t together so everyone can ditch it
I'm running Manjaro Gnome on my main systems with Wayland, and have not had any major issues. The worst thing I can think of is Psensor for monitoring my temps takes a bit longer to load at times then on my older machines running Solus Budgie with X11, but yes I think it's high time things get kicked into high gear so X11 can be put to rest except for very lightweight distros catered to old hardware that might still need it.
@@Commodore64Fan I running Manjaro Plasma and works great.. honestly 99% of the complaints in this video has nothing to do with wayland but lazy devs not willing to put the work in to port apps that need to support wayland to do so.. 95% of apps can continue using X11 under wayland while those take their time to port but there are some devs just too lazy or unwilling to propose the wayland protocols they need to port the ones that need to be ported now
I find it very funny to see how conservative some part of the Linux community is.... I think that most anti-wayland people don't use GNOME, so why do they even bother having tantrums in this case? These people using "X11 forever" won't maintain the project (X11 is indeed considered DEPRECATED software), so in the mid or long term, X11 will be totally out of touch with existing technology. In the next 2 years, Wine (and Proton) will run on Wayland, and all the needed protocols, like hdr & color-management, windows coordinates, screen tearing, global hotkeys, etc. will be fully implemented. The devs and users that are ignore this trend will find themselves in a dire situation in the near future, reliyng on utterly outdated graphical software.
KeepassXC autofill doesn't work on Wayland, so I am trying to switch over to using the browser Addon, still using X11 btw. It works fine in Firefox, but not too well in other browsers.
Wayland will be fully ready only when there is no longer need for Xwayland.
No this is incorrect XWayland is required to support apps that are either abandoned, no longer being developed or will never be overhauled to Wayland. I think if XWayland can run most/all Xapps then it'll be ready because at that point xorg is not doing anything special anymore.
A more logical replacement of X would be to keep the xlib protocol, for the most part, and gut out the entire Xserver replacing it with a new redone system. In other words a new system from the ground up, but still using the same API/function calls of X. This would have made the migrations work basically ZERO, with no need to rewrite tookits like Qt, Gtk, etc..
And here is were it gets completely crazy, most people don't realize that Wayland is NOT new windowing system/server, Wayland basically is just a new "protocol", i.e. a rewrite of xlib. In fact, if people would take the time to investigate they would realize that the Waylanf compositor(the replacement for X window) is officialy a " reference implementation" ... meaning just an "example", not an end-all.
All of that time spent reinventing just a protocol, could have been better spent focusing solely on making a new windowing system(not just a reference implementation) and keeping the same API i.e. "xlib"
Can I show remote programs over SSH without hassle? Are all the desktop recording issues fixed? Does Wayland finally support all the stuff X can in general?
X for me has no problems, so I happily stick with it.
gnome devs are being fools for trying to drop x support
I'll never migrate from X11. Wayland doesn't offer anything interesting to me.
I am a Linux Mint user and a GIMP user, so I am not going to be in a hurry to jump to Wayland. As of right now, it isn't going to do anything for me that X11 doesn't.
I agree, It's just not time to drop xsessions in GNOME. Wayland still needs more time in the oven before it's ready, there are still some features that x supports that Wayland doesn't. It seems to me they spent to much time developing for new technologies like Display link and independent fractional scaling for multiple displays, without making sure the legacy features and technologies still worked under the Wayland protocol. They should have started with he legacy and worked their way up.
What exactly is the reason Wayland is never ready? Is the problems app that didn't implement Wayland or is Wayland too over-complicated or incomplete?
Its never ready by design, things like X11 Forwarding is missing by design. Things are more sectioned off, etc. You need multiple other solutions on your system such as pipewire to overcome what wayland lacks. Meanwhile no-one can give me a good reason why I should care as an X11 user. Yes X11 is old and renders in unpredictable unreliable ways, but that has been long solved by compositors and the DE's so you only really notice it when none are involved.
In practise X11 does what it needs to for me and has features I need that wayland doesn't. Wayland has not a single feature I want that X11 doesn't. So for me the choice between them is very obvious. I used to be hyped for wayland thinking it would solve the buginess of the linux desktop but that was years ago. Since we got proper AMD/Intel mesa drivers which dont have that buginess so I know its just nvidia who can't get their act together on that one.
There's a lot of work to create all the features and fix all the bugs with too few people to do the job. X needs to remain until these things are done.
Wayland needs to be out in users system to find more issues and/or prioritize them, but should not be the only option before bugs are squashed and needed features are finished. There must remain an option for X for those who require certain functions.
Perhaps someone could figure out a way to where Either Wayland or x can run How wine runs windows❤ programs within links.
@@motoryzen So far as I know, XWayland is the only option, and I doubt it is going away any time soon.
WHAT !? I would never give up X11Forwarding.. The Wayland protocol/compositor doesn't work for me, it should be a choice as it has always been until it was first shoved down peoples throats with gnome.. FREE (freedom) and Open Source right ? It even ruins gnome, if your into that type of thing. I don't play the window manager game too much trouble, I can be more than happy with old school X11. As per the great Google Wayland supposedly "reduces latency, improves security and offers better performance over Xorg", Tom show me that concept in action. You would know, how does it effect video rendering ? Maybe its for people that want/need to enhance GPU performance on linux. So why run it on an underpowered pi ? Help me.
It's still free software and you're free to patch X support in or use a protest distro that uses OpenRC, GTK2, Pulse and X11
They couldn't fix what didn't work, so they started breaking what worked.
You always have the greatest back drops for you videos. Lol. You are living the dream out there. Never stop putting out the videos!
Wayland is far from being ready it has a long way to go there's stuffed that it needs but no one knows if they're going to even implement it or not.
i'd say it's more ready than x11 at this point. ive had more issues and inconvieniences on x11 than wayland
@@cavummusictheoryreally depends on use case, I could do all my business stuff (for the most part some required workarounds) flawlessly on Wayland but spinning up a game was a nightmare (Nvidia).
I'm rooting for Wayland though, modernizing such a huge component of desktop Linux is more important than people think.
@@hopelessdecoy i do literally EVERYTHING on wayland. all sorts of creative and productive activities, play games, very heavy tasks, ive had minor issues here and there but theyve never affected the full experience of it all, which im fine with.
@@hopelessdecoyGaming on Wayland with AMD or Intel is pretty much seemless. That is more of a Nvidia issue than a Wayland related one.
When Linux Mint moves to Wayland I'll move to Wayland
That's it, im going to convince my parents again to switch from GNOME to KDE or even Cinnamon, idk, due to this nonsense. GNOME can't even fix gtk4 scrolling bugs and it's been a two years
If its parents just customize KDE to look and work like gnome. They will not really care.
While I know Wayland is the future, you can't shoot yourself in the foot if the other shoe isn't fully laced up yet. Wayland isn't ready to fully replace X11 so trying to scare people into moving to this new things will cause alot of issues that users won't be prepared to solve.
LOL I thought this was the end of Twitter (x). WOW X has been a long runner. Free 👍 bump
7:15 "We think everybody should be doing it like we do"
Ah yes, the Gnome design philosophy in a nutshell
2:55 to 3:12...yeaap...THAT is just one reason why Wayland is NOT ready as a real replacement for x11.
There are a plethora of gimp users.
X11 goes greatly underappreciated, but I'm content to move to Wayland when, if ever, it is a viable alternative. Currently, it is so far from being ready, that I suspect the Cosmic DE will be complete, very few people will even remember Rust ever existed and Nvidia will have fully open-source drivers, by the time Wayland is finally ready to supplant X11.
Heheh, "Nvidia will have fully open-source drivers" Give the Wayland a chance, hahah
Does LMDE use any gnome? (I'm hoping to totally avoid gnome forever with LMDE and XFCE.)
It depends on exaclty what you mean. Both lmde and xfce use gtk rather than qt libraries (lxqt is essentially lxde ported to qt). And gnome the organisation, is (or at least used to be) the primary developer of gtk.
But as far as I'm aware, neither lmde nor xfce have any dependencies on gnome the desktop environment (except when those have been added by the distro).
The Cinnamon gets a lot of code from the GNOME project, so it wouldn't surprise me if their xsession code comes from GNOME as well.
First step to removing X11 should be to make sure Wayland works fully. Otherwise we are going to finish up down a colour blind end.
First step to making sure Wayland works fully is to give enough push to developers who still think that X11 will be there forever and there's no need to bother with porting for another decade or two.
@@engiecat705 Totally agree! The message is clear: port your applications to Wayland NOW! The future has come! Now is the time to solve the remaining issues for Wayland adoption, and these issues will only be fixed with the Wayland porting process.
A lot of us don't like this. What can we do to stop this?
Now is as good as time as any to make the change.
X, the new Twitter.
X, the old display manger :)
I'm rooting for Wayland, people need to remember languages, programming practices and devs all unfortunately die eventually.
If you don't modernize then no one will know how something works.
I mean X11 is open sourced and has tons of people defending it but I don't see anyone picking up the X12 project.... Use x11 but back Wayland
If all fore going for code elegance but gnome makes it weird. Their super into rust too which I'm not crazy about.
IDK was thinking about moving back to Arch but then THrought: I wonder if they may force me to move to wayland on some XFCE update. (not likley BTW that the next XFCE will support it) Alos remember that Compiz willnot run on wayland however maybe wayfire will do the same thing. IDK. Good video idea switched....
Im sure you left out the word "end" in the Title.
People should use cinnamon. That's what I use everywhere
Typo in title "The of X11?" - missing the "end"
Thanks...I'll get that fixed.
X11 ain't going nowhere. Since wayland (from what i understand) is somewhat dependent on X11 no? Just like pipewire/pulseaudio/jack discussions?
I actually removed pipewire from my opensuse tumbleweed, because i couldn't get any decent latency. Switch to pulse+Jack. Problem solved.
So, nah...i rather stick with a good old implementation that works 99% of the time. I don't see, nor have any issues with X11. AMD gpu.
Surprised you didn't talk about how KDE is handling Wayland & X11 for Plasma 6, which is as balanced as one can hope to be.
Really hope when Plasma 6 comes out, gaming will be better & other missing features (i.e. screen recording + audio on Discord) will work. I think Valve got their Gamescope to work with Wayland, but I haven't tested yet.
I need to fully utilize my 144Hz ultrawide, as it's paired with my DualUp.
Also, Cosmic is Wayland-only. I hope they'll be able to push NVIDIA to properly support Wayland.
What do you think about zigx?
fix wayland before force to wayland :)
Good points!
Wayland is miserable failure, use Arcan instead
Although the GNOME team may not be able to erase all traces of X11 code from the project, I'm sure they could disable the session and remove enough of the core X11 code to completely break it aka so you couldn't enable it with some hidden config.
They could do such an update today. So to say they are just bluffing to force everyone else's hand is silly
That's not what their plan is for now though... All they're doing right now is removing the option from the config file.
I'm excited to see it. Sounds reasonable to drop it and let others add it back if they like. I don't necessarily view it as arrogance.
Typo in the title. It should read. Thee, O X11, art thou Ending?
I think Linux would be better off without Gnome.
And the Linux Foundation.
Its gotten to the point Wayland works better for me then X11.. maybe due to being on AMD IDK but sure many other folks are in the same boat.. X11 hasn't seen meaningful updates in over a decade and they are discovering 30+ year old bugs in it.. time for Nvidia to get their sh*t together so everyone can ditch it
I'm running Manjaro Gnome on my main systems with Wayland, and have not had any major issues. The worst thing I can think of is Psensor for monitoring my temps takes a bit longer to load at times then on my older machines running Solus Budgie with X11, but yes I think it's high time things get kicked into high gear so X11 can be put to rest except for very lightweight distros catered to old hardware that might still need it.
@@Commodore64Fan I running Manjaro Plasma and works great.. honestly 99% of the complaints in this video has nothing to do with wayland but lazy devs not willing to put the work in to port apps that need to support wayland to do so.. 95% of apps can continue using X11 under wayland while those take their time to port but there are some devs just too lazy or unwilling to propose the wayland protocols they need to port the ones that need to be ported now
I find it very funny to see how conservative some part of the Linux community is.... I think that most anti-wayland people don't use GNOME, so why do they even bother having tantrums in this case? These people using "X11 forever" won't maintain the project (X11 is indeed considered DEPRECATED software), so in the mid or long term, X11 will be totally out of touch with existing technology. In the next 2 years, Wine (and Proton) will run on Wayland, and all the needed protocols, like hdr & color-management, windows coordinates, screen tearing, global hotkeys, etc. will be fully implemented. The devs and users that are ignore this trend will find themselves in a dire situation in the near future, reliyng on utterly outdated graphical software.
Hate to say it, but X11 is long in the tooth. Wayland is mature enough at this point. All software is buggy no mater what, look at PC gaming.