IFF: Identify Friend or Foe
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- In this episode we're talking about IFF, the system for identifying other ships and aircraft.
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While on picket duty for a task force during WWII, my father's Benson-class destroyer used its IFF interrogator built into its long range air search radar to detect and track friendly aircraft returning to the fleet at a range well beyond the destroyer's normal skin-track (reflected radar signal) search radar detection range. The destroyer notified the task force supervision, who queried how the destroyer was detecting/tracking the aircraft at the extreme range. The answer was that the aircraft IFF transponders were active (avoiding friendly fire), allowing the destroyer and any other friendly ship interrogator to get a friendly reply from the transponders on the aircraft. This may not have been standard procedure for destroyers to do this, apparently based on the query. Larger ships with taller antenna locations and more transmit power were expected to detect returning fleet aircraft. The aircraft would typically be able to tell if it was being interrogated (as a safety measure). The interrogation and reply codes would need to be the correct ones for the day/mission.Civil ATC transponders use 4-digit codes, while military IFF systems offer more protected options. Civil transponders were upgraded to provide more info about the aircraft. More recently, ADSB with GPS is providing much more tracking info these days for civil aircraft.
Well done. Now climb up there and show us what we really want to see, the birds nest where the transponders are 😂
I bet the navy took those off the ship in 1991. That were classified stuff back than.
@@studinthemaking classified bird's nests? :)
@@bear_82 Classified transponders. Remember CIA operation Acoustic Kitty? Now imagine USSR launched an operation Electronic Seagull.
I'm interested in a video explaining the various ways a ship's 'weight' is determined, such as, but not limited to, the difference between displacement & dead weight tonnage.
a very brief start- displacement is the ships weight if you could put it on scales. there is standard/light displacement and Max displacement. then Deadweight tonnage is a measure of a vessel's weight carrying capacity, not including the empty weight of the ship. IT does not include the ship's own weight. gross (register) tonnage or net tonnage - is a measure of VOLUME (but still expressed in TONS - Confusing ! Hard to define "cargo" with military ships- so usually not used. Ships have tables made up when built to determine Displacement for the different drafts - don't recall if he has done a video.
There is a larger ruler painted on the outside of the ship. The level that the water reaches on the ruler is used to determine how much water is displaced, which is then used to calculate weight. Tldr; They know the weight by how low the ship sits in the water.
Very good suggestion. Libby, could this be added to the list please? (I don't recall an existing video about this, and I have watched most of them).
I worked on the AIMS Mk XII IFF when I was in the Navy from 80 to 86 on board USS Preble DDG-46. Man I hated that rinky dink code plunger with those pins for Mode 4! Ours was pretty worn out.
I remember updating the Mode 4 on the Saratoga as well. That was a climb to get to a couple of the Radar rooms to do that.
Had to use that same code setter on our SH-2F LAMPS helo. In the early years I did the code setting myself if the ET's didn't do it. Also had a code setter for our KY-58 secure radio. That was also at first a pin setter, then later went to a digital setter, if you want to call a paper tape digital 😁.
I worked in an office where a digital code setter was used load the radio keys and it was a pain to get it connected. An old timer showed me the trick of licking his finger and running it over the O-ring inside the connector. That allowed the connector to snap on easily. The digital code setter could also be connected to another small box which allowed key positions to be read in from a paper tape pulled through manually. At the time, there were a lot of model 29 Teletypes still in use, so the plaintext communication standard was 45.45 Baud (60 WPM) five-level Baudot code.
We used those pin setters on our planes, too.
The box we used that thing on would get its pins stuck and we couldn't get the right code out of it. We would take it out of its mount and bang it on the deck to get those pins loose and it worked.
Once we had to explain to the flight deck chief what we were doing. Almost turned into trip to the boss. Fun times, you know.
@@ut000bs I delt with handing them out and taking them in after normal duty hours.
I was assigned to Combat Crew Comm at various assignment in the Air Force. We issued the IFF documents, among other classified stuff, to the aircrews. We usually referred to them as Modes and Codes.
I did the same thing at Griffiss AFB, NY. Back then 1972-77, it was Tac Comm. That was part of the Communications Squadron. They made up the packages for the aircrews, but only worked the day shift.. At night, my computer shop issued and took in the packages. Part of the package was authentication codes and IFF. I enjoyed the duty. I got to meet the aircrews and chat briefly with them.
@@klsc8510 Ya, I did it at Carswell 85 - 87 and Castle 90 - 91, and later set up Crew Comm at Langley, (92 - 94, HQ ACC) after TAC went away.
The transponder on Iran Air Flight 655 was working. The crew of the Vincennes made mistakes in the use of their equipment and processing what what the displays were telling them.
Well, that's why the tape recorder is there now.
Yeah the human computer interface let them down and 290 passengers and crew were killed
There many stories about that day. Could it be a modern Kamikaze? Were the passengers even alive? 9-11 showed us that passenger airplanes could be used to attack targets. The ship was also engaging surface targets at the time. Information overload?
My guess and only a guess, shooting the airliner down was a good call. What would have happened if the ship or another ship was struck and sunk by the airliner crashing into it?
No it was not! All the information that said this was a commercial airliner was there but the poor interface let them down
I believe another problem was the flight had been delayed by hours, so those tracking it were not expecting it to be there.
One 👍. Just put the cursor on the contact and POS COR, position correct, according to the Chief. Unless the OS has instructions DO NOT put a delta/triangle on it, people will try to destroy the contact. Phalanx, 3/50 mounts.
I understood everything you said. Should I be scared? lol
There are two interrogation codes set out by the seeker. One essentially asks who are you and the other asks how high are you? The responses is coded with a 4 digit reply as to who I am and the other response is coded for my altitude. Two important reply codes are 7600 and 7700. The first says I've lost communication and the second says I have an emergency. The magic of ground based computers changes these numbers into a displayed code of airline and flight number and altitude for display on the radar screen.
There is also 7500 which is "Hijack" code.
I'm an American and I'm VERY high right now.
The transponder is very important to civilian air traffic control It allows the controller to identify individual aircraft from the jumble ( "FLT X Squawk Ident"). Sometimes aircraft do not show a radar return but do show the transponder return.
IFF started during the Battle of France. Both sides lost planes due to friendly fire. It was rushed through after a major battle over the Thames involving solely RAF planes....
Never struck me that ships also use it!
Sounds like The Battle of Barking Creek, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Barking_Creek
If you look at the picture of the air search radars on the USN ships in WWII and also the rotating radars at airports you see a small rectangular auxiliary antenna on top of the main antenna. That is the antenna for the IFF on those ships.
I was a RADAR tech in the RCAF. I was deployed to a super mobile system. (Had super single truck tires and a pindel hook on the frame and was towed by a f-550 or gmc topkick)
We deemed our primary ASR #1 priority, then our IFF. it was deemed more important than our PAR system to maintain. Our ATC's complained fastest when the IFF was acting up even over the primary ASR and PAR.
I usually tell people IFF is like internet..it's a handshake system. The interrogator and the transponder need a certain code to kick the correct password code between each other. Even like in WWII with the "flash/thunder" ident words for infantry.
I miss the days of working on the equipment...I miss the challenges. Especially out UNEX operating system.
Mr Mike, do you think it’s possible to make a radar that is strong enough to work for a mile or two; fit in the palm of one’s hand?
> UNEX operating system.
Assuming you are referring to UNIX, it is certainly possible to use it as a desktop operating system, via one of many available Linux distributions.
I really liked the videos you did from the mannequin storage closet and the sleeping compartment with only one entrance and exit that is used as storage. Maybe there are other areas that are used for storage of museum stuff that would be interesting to show off.
i like these short form videos that answer specific questions
So Wise , Thank You
Former ET2 w/ 1572 NEC (AIMS Mk XII IFF Maintenance) 1995-2001 here. So, your SPS-49 antenna is missing the interrogator's antenna, which mounts horizontally in front of and below the feedhorn. God only knows where to pick one up these days.
There are 5 modes in use on NEW JERSEY and her contemporaries: Modes 1, 2, 3/A, C & 4. Mode 1 is military mission-specific and will look like XX00. The last two octals are zeroes. Mode 2 is military unit-specific. Mode 2 gets changed directly on the RT859A/APX-72, found inside the RADAR Equipment Room (or equivalent). Since NEW JERSEY is always NEW JERSEY, that code gets seldom changed. Mode 3/A is civilian and military-used and is the "squawk code" assigned by Air Traffic Control for aircraft identification. Mode C is civilian and military use and is used for altitude reporting. An aircraft's altimeter can have an encoder, which will convert the altitude into the binary-coded octal necessary for broadcast from the aircraft's transponder. On NEW JERSEY, this is essentially jumpered-out in the transponder, because well, a flying battleship would be a sight to see! Finally, there's Mode 4. Mode 4 is encrypted. An encrypted signal is momentarily transmitted by the RADAR operator (OS or FC) when the RADAR sweep is about to cover the suspect contact. If that contact's transponder can process that encrypted signal and reply in kind with the correct encrypted response, a mark will appear on the display and a light will illuminate on the AN/UPA-59 Decoder (the box with the numbers next to the console). Modes 1 & 3/A can be controlled on NEW JERSEY inside the CIC / CDC on the C-6280A/APX Transponder Controller.
Nowadays, there's Mode S, used by Air Traffic Control to display everything about an aircraft to Controllers. There's also Mode 5, the new hotness in encryption.
That's IFF in a very basic nutshell.
Iowa put out a video about the main battery aiming station and the gut trainer's controls. Sounds like a good place to stick a curator.
Libby & Ryan, thank you once again for an extremely interesting and informative video. I learned to fly and am an aviation nut (and, according to my friends, many other types of nut) and always wondered about the relationship between IFF and civilian transponders.
Would you kindly correct your statements about Iran Air Flight 655? It definitely was sending out a civilian IFF code, and this was known to the systems on the USS Vincennes. To quote from the report of the Formal Investigation into the Circumstances Surrounding the Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 on 3 July 1988 (page 17):
(7) Iran Air Flight 655 took off from Bandar Abbas International Airfield on runway 21 at 0647Z. It was cleared to Dubai via A-59 at FL 140 (14,00OFT) with an assigned IFF Mode III squawk of 6760. The pilot reported passing MOBET (position report) at 0654Z and vacating FL 120 (12,000 feet).
(8) Iran Air Flight 655 squawked Mode III-6760 from take off to missile intercept.
While that report is the source of most basic facts around the shoot down, its conclusions are generally considered to be a bit of whitewash whose main goal was to absolve the US of any legal liability.
A far better and more detailed analysis is in the book Electronic Greyhounds by Michael C Potter, Captain USNR. He gives evidence that the crew of the Vincennes was, "poorly trained and badly led", and that Captain W. C. Rogers was overly aggressive. The full picture is of sailors making mistakes due to stress, being tossed about by sharp maneuvers, and target fixation. It is significant that the Aegis system had correctly identified Iran Air 655 as a civilian flight, as had the USS Sides a frigate that was also in the same area. Had the Aegis system been left in fully automatic mode, the Vincennes would not have fired at the airliner.
Yes, thank you for writing this comment. It's always frustrating when people get this detail wrong. It kind of feels like blaming the victim
Underrated comment.
Thanks for posting this. I made my own less detailed as well. As I recall the manual IFF interrogator was left pointed at the wrong target throughout the engagement.
The Iran Air Flight was delayed in its departure which ultimately played a role in the flight demise
You have a stressed out, poorly trained who have become target fixiated combined with an overly aggressive captain and flawed human computer interface, that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen
322 the red numeric display looks like a different version of the DSKY on the Apollo guidance computer ( they were green with numbers slanted a bit more to the right. )
wow, great intro. production quality is going way up.
That digital board on the air search radar looks a lot like the Apollo guidance computer on lunar module
In WW2, IFF as a new technology had the code name ‘Parrot’ and to this day, the assigned code is referred to as the ‘squawk code’.
4:41 okay Ryan that is incorrect as Airbus would have installed a transponder as they would be required until aviation regulations
5:04 Ryan the reason for why Iran Air 655 did not respond was because the Vincennes did use a certain piece of information, the flight crew did not know that the ship was trying to call them, had the Vincennes done so, the flight crew probably would have responded
Prior to IFF, the policy was to, "shoot 'em down and sort 'em out on the ground." 🙂 Back in the seventies, I worked on the IFF set in the HAWK missile system.
There was IFF as far back as WW2, originally developed by the Brits, later used by all allied forces.
Something not really talked about in detail is the fact that IFF isnt really a reliable system. The transponder could be off, faulty, or not be on the right codes. However, some aircraft and ground/surface assets have something called NCTR. What it does is scans the radar signature and engine blades if they're visible to identify the targeted aircraft. This allowed F-15Cs in Desert Storm to engage Iraqi without permission from strategic air control assets like AWACS as long as they had a NCTR reading, which is why most air to air victories scored by the Coalition are done by F-15s. Also the U.S. during the 60s and 70s developed in secret a device called the APX-80 "Combat Tree", which essentially was a reverse engineered Soviet IFF interrogator that could be used to find the azimuth and bearing to Soviet aircraft without even needing to turn on their own radars by homing in on the transponder signals.
In December 1957 the USD Alabama fired 2 salvos into Boston destroying several port facilities. The Boston IFF had been inadvertently shut down and the Alabama therefore determined that it was an enemy target. Shell damage can still be seen today on loading dock”F”.
Are you talking about Boston the city? That sounds like the old joke about a US destroyer vs a lighthouse.
You asked for another interesting NTDS (Naval Tactical Data System), piece of gear.....it would be the BVP, (Beacon Video Processor). Its a computer that tags any radar video as friendly, unknown or hostile. THis allows the TAO, (tactical action officer), who fights the ship, to flip to auto, if things get overwealming. This automatic mode will launch a missile at any target not identified as friendly. Things can get pretty fast, but all the missile house needs to do is slap the fins on the missile, and they automatically run up to the launching rails (this is prior to the excellent vertical launch sys.), and fire. Probably a missile every 20 seconds x 2 per launcher, x 2 launchers per Leahy class cruiser = 12 per minute. With 88 total missiles on board, 44 per magazine, for and aft. We were launching SM2 ER's, Standard missile 2, extended range, good for about 100 miles.
Also known as SQUAWK
Squawking no modes no codes
I read that at the Battle of Santa Cruz, the USS Enterprise had a brand new system onboard. She had been fitted out with new radar FC for her 5" guns. Unfortunately they did not have IFF making these weapons far less effective (along with a casualty which knocked out the director feed to 25% of the guns) then they should have been. The radar operators couldn't distinguish between incoming flights of Japanese attack aircraft and returning flights of US aircraft, made more confusing as Hornets aircraft were also passing in range. The result was that this first use of radar directed anti-aircraft fire was far from a stellar performance. perhaps if someone had thought of that issue before hand we may not have lost the Hornet.
Funny, I had this right in front of a video on the Battle of Savo Island. They sure could have used IFF in that one!
How many wires did Ryan fry energizing the RADAR?
😂
I believe that other IFF systems use Infra Red strobes, especially to mark "blue" ground assets for ground attack and surveillance/scouting aircraft.
Not even remotely close!
I have a question/topic for a video. How much of a skeleton crew could realistically operate the ship effectively? In plenty of films we see only six or seven characters operate a ship seemingly just as effective as a full crew (Star Trek and U571 comes to mind). Obviously they take plenty of creative license in Hollywood but would it even be possible for a crew of maybe a dozen men to hijack a sub, a cruiser or even a battleship like New Jersey and escape with it intact? (Assuming machinery and what not are at least serviceable).
Yes, I would love to see a video on this!
Can you do an episode on the use and effectiveness of float planes on Allied and Axis ships during the war?
I suggest a video on the role of the tactical action officer (TAO) and the kill chain. What would happen aboard the battleship if it detected an incoming anti-ship missile?
A different question, Pest control as an active ship and as a museum ship?
I don't think I can comment on this...might get in trouble. LoL IFF is VERY important and can save lives. I will leave it at that.
How about updates on archeology you are doing on board?
When in et school, I did real good and fixing the troubles on iff stuff. Got out in the fleet and one day, I needed help. Go figure.
was the sage system ever incorporated into NJ's systems?
Has Ryan made any comment on Iowa rotating her turrets? I'd.l be curious to hear his take on it
👍👍
I wish at the start, Ryan had turned around a bit more slowly, then with more of a surprise "Oh, hello. I didn't see you there"
Another great video. Thanks
Y'all really need to lend your platform to one of your next door neighbors the USS Ling. Shes trapped in a river and desperately needs attention to make sure shes saved for the future and not scrapped.
When you ship is in a foreign port like USS Cole, and small boats come up. They may friendly or not.
CRWS works primarily on IFF
Civilian "IFF" aren't called that, they are just called transponders.
They are also not just used to avoid the American military from making mistakes like a panicked child.
Their unique codes allow flight plan data to be linked to their radar response so that controllers can see who the aircraft is, what they are, where they intend to go and more.
The transponders ALSO transmit altitude information, giving the otherwise 2D radar that important piece of data to convey accurate and current 3D positioning, which given that aircraft fly around in a 3D space unlike cars and boats, is pretty important to know.
Radar and Transponders are now also supplemented and even being replaced by ADS-B.
An aviation specific tracking system that uses radios to broadcast and receive aircraft position, altitude, speed, identity and more based on sensors including GP's receivers located in the aircraft.
This system doesn't require huge amounts of electrical power like Radar, let alone the cost of building and maintaining such systems whilst also having a greater range and accuracy, assuming GPS systems aren't being jammed by humans or solar events.
IFF then: Radars and transponders.
IFFF now: "Meow"
Well civilian ships have transponder too.
And well IFF was invented before WW2 by the UK i thing it was in 1936?
I don’t think that particular type of repeater would show the symbols on the contacts. So it’s a looping video?
_"MUSTANG when you get the chance... can you give me a MODE 4 check?"_
Hiya Ryan good video overall. But in this instance. I was disappointed in some of your comments. You made it appear that the disaster of Iran Flight 655 was their fault, when that is so far from the truth. It DID have a transponder, it was working correct AND it was detected correctly by the Aegis system as a civilian aircraft (not only on the ship which fired but also a nearby warship's system also correctly identified it). The US Navy done a whitewash on it and didn't lay blame where it should have been laid, which is well known. Please I believe you are much better than that and do not go down that same rabbit hole. If memory serves me correctly about IFF the British invented it specifically Robert Watson Watt in 1935 and started using it in the very early days of World War 2 or even possibly before that. But much more frequently moreso as the British realised early on they were loosing too many "friendly" aircraft to friendly fire. Which when your already on the backfoot with aircraft numbers to loose aircraft needlessly is a bad move.
Curious where you think blame should be laid?
@@anullhandle Blame should be laid where the reports said blame should be laid. And not covered up as what happened in this case. But of course there will be those who think the US Military is perfect and does nothing wrong. In which case no point in discussing it as well once their opinions are made up regardless of how much evidence to the contrary there is, it will be ignored.
@@nzcyclone it was widely reported that it was human failure of military personnel at the time. It was also widely reported at the time that it was the 1st engagement in history where a weapon system could play back the event and disputed human testimony. You are also conveniantly ignoring the circumstances surrounding the event.
@@anullhandle You can blame circumstances as much as you want. It does not remove the fact that Human error or if want to put it another way Bad Judgement calls was responsible. It is also a fact that that human error cost the lives of 290 innocent people. I am not saying that Iran flight 655 was 100% blameless in that they should have been listening to the general aviation frequency and should have responded, but that alone is no excuse to fire a missile at them. As you yourself said "a weapon system could play back the event and disputed human testimony" in other words they were lying to try and shift blame
@@nzcyclone Again it was widely reported that it was human error by military personnel. Not sure who else you are trying to blame.
Is that blip ours returning or theirs following or coming in to attack? LoL
This has been around least since the 70s learned about IFF in the Navy
Actually goes back all the way back to WWII.
Does ships' radar make a car radar detector go off?
Dank3151, The uss rancocas "corn field cruiser" iirc now has an an/spy-6 antenna and other directed energy toys. I'd imagine it could smoke any electronics it wanted to on that section of turnpike and interstate.
@@anullhandlefascinating !:-)
@@barrydysert2974 that thing is actual ship structure and weapon system hardware minus the missile pointy bits, in a corn field, not some plywood mockup. I think I read somewhere it now includes laser components.
Yeah the destruction of Airbus A300B2-200 of Iran Air operating as Iran Air Flight 655 shows why proper interface on the IFF
What kind of radar transponder do you use at home, comment down below
Hmm, interesting. Do I see two lavaliere microphones there? I wonder why that is?
Imagine instead of dropping grenades they figure out how to make one of the high capacity shells into a RC jet plane think a conventional drone design would need to be way to big to be anywhere close to practical but a 16in shell with a balsa board airframe powered by a simple pulsejet may be doable though it would probably be more practical to just take the explosive out of the shell and repurpose it
OK, but we still dont know how it really works
Ryan - do not drink the Kool-Aid.
The Iran Air flight was a civilian aircraft with a civilian transponder. The crew of the Vincennes screwed up royally. The truth is available.
I expect better of you.
Nope. A civilian aircraft will not have an IFF. They will have a transponder only. Not only that, there is no way IFF codes of the day would be given to a civilian entity.
112th, 6 August 2023
That console there is very noisy. I'd want to take a bat to it. Bzzzzzzzzz rattle Bzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Unless you speak on the correct frequency, you will not get a response
sqwak your parrot. throttle your parrot
Bros copying minecraft friend or foe 💀
Disappointed to the point I feel morally obligated to comment. You have shared you are contractually required to present the US Navy in a positive light; however, that does not mean you must actively spread disinformation about Iran Air Flight 655. Where is your integrity, Ryan?
Your recount of the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 is complete BS and completely glosses over the incompetence and criminality of the USS Vincennes captain and crew. Typically American recount of history when it is you guys committing the atrocity! The airliner was NOT flying over the ship, it had just taken off from the airport and was still climbing and heading away from the ship when it was shot down! Not to mention that the ship was not even in the right position it was meant to be and the crew didn’t even know it because of their incompetence! You guys need to do some simple research before using examples like this so you can get the basic facts right.
Imagine if another country shot down one of your civilian airliners, the whole world would still be hearing about it and you’d have some memorial for it so you can bang on about it every year too!
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