What Canada Missed Out On: Find Out the Incredible Story Behind the Avro Arrow!
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- Check out more videos about the Arrow here:
• AVRO ARROW vs F 35 & F 18
The Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow was a late 1950's delta winged interceptor aircraft which incorporated design elements and performance far ahead of its time. Intended to serve as Canada's premiere fighter interceptor into the 1960s and beyond, and replace the CF100, the Arrow program was abruptly cancelled less than one year after its first flight, despite incorporating many advanced features including early fly by wire technology. A victim of bad timing due to the sputnik launch and politics, the demise of the Arrow forever altered the course of the Canadian Aerospace industry, and internationally scattered the talented individuals who worked on the project. Today we will look at the circumstances that spawned this incredible aircraft, it's performance, and lasting legacy, including its team members going on to work on the Gemini, Mercury, and Apollo programs.
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"The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement."
Photography Credits:
Avro Arrow RL204 Photo:
Don Rogers, GFDL www.gnu.org/cop..., via Wikimedia Commons
Nike Hercules Missile Photo:
Megapixie at English Wikipedia, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons
Canadian House of Commons
Tony Webster from Portland, Oregon, United States, CC BY 2.0 creativecommon..., via Wikimedia Commons
Avro Arrow Replica
User:Captmondo, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons..., via Wikimedia Commons
RCAF CF-101 Voodo
Bernardd, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommon..., via Wikimedia Commons
CF-100 firing missile:
Canadian Department of National Defence, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons
Canadian Topographic Map:
User:Anchjo (from en:Wikipedia User:Captain_Blood), CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons..., via Wikimedia Commons
Mirage IV photos:
Mike Freer - Touchdown-aviation (GFDL 1.2 www.gnu.org/lic... or GFDL 1.2 www.gnu.org/lic..., via Wikimedia Commons
Music from filmmusic.io "Hiding Your Reality" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) License: CC BY (creativecommons...)
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As a retired Canadian pilot, I'm still furious about the Arrow debacle, but this is one of the best videos I've ever seen on the subject. Very well done.
Thank you and very much appreciated!
Future generations of Canadians were cheated by the loss of the Arrow.
@@Joe-by8jh we lost the ability to make our own fighter jets now we only have second hand fighter jet.
@@Joe-by8jh The Bomarc Missiles that replaced the Arrow never worked and needed nuclear warheads to be effective. The Americans were willing to turn most of Northern Canada into a nuclear wasteland as part of NORAD's defense strategy. The cost of the Bomarc missile was higher than trying to finish the Arrow and deploying it. Lastly when compared to most of the other generation 3 fighters of that era, the Arrow would have out matched almost all of them. I think only the F-4 Phantom would beat the Arrow and that is only for speed.
@@ChairmanMo F-106 had comparable speed, a slightly higher service ceiling, almost twice the radius of action, was available four years earlier, and was several times cheaper
The worst part isn't the fact that the Arrow wasn't made, it's the fact that Canada then lost the ability to ever make such an advanced military aircraft ever again :(
the short sight of the conservative lost the chance of Canada being number one in the world then. so sad.
@@woody1-w2x
Doubtful.
There is little chance Avro Canada would've ever been on equal footing with giants like NAA, Convair, McDonnell, Republic, Douglas, etc.
The Arrow was a leading-edge design to be sure, but the age of the pure interceptor was already waning before the Arrow would've become operational in 1961-62.
Air forces wanted more versatility, hence the popularity of the F-4 and subsequent evolution toward the F-15, F-14, F-16, F-18, etc.
@@raynus1160 The main issue, is not, how well it would have been against US' made fighters in mock dog fights! But against the Russian, at least, if not Future Thereats, like maybe Chinese or North Korean! But 1 main enemy was Russia and not nessesary USA or any other country!
@@valko022
It wasn't designed for A2A combat with fighters - it was developed to shoot down Soviet bombers (specifically the Tu-16 and its follow-ons).
@@raynus1160 Yeah. True. God bless you so. God loves you so and so am I with the love of His' = Jesus Christ (of Nazareth) = Yahushua / Yehushua ha Mashiach. : )
Just like TSR-2.
An aircraft has 4 dimensions, length, wingspan, height and politics.
Just like TSR-2, an air force toy in the first place.
TSR 2 was an engineering disaster nothing more than a compassion bubble. 4 prototypes were built, 3 permanently grounded due to technical problems. Too late in conception and development,vastly overbudget and then the shocking news that it would not even meet its design specification.. Canceled by Wilson government before anymore money was lost
Three dimensions are created by engineers and one by political filth, scum!
As a Canadian all I can say is F'n Diefenbaker!!!
If you read "The Arrow Scrapbook" you'll see The Conartists only followed what the Lieberals had planned had they won the election. They both listened to their generals, who preferred missiles.
Yes 👍 he wanted to build nucke but pressure was too much 4 himself
That's Goofenbaker!
As an airplane enthusiast all I can say is F'n Diefenbaker!!!
It's good to see that tempers are still flaring after all this time. But it's too easy to blame the last link in the chain (ie. Diefenbaker) for what happened. It was a textbook case of what happens when bureaucrats and politicians and competing interests in allied countries create a perfect storm that even the technological prowess of the Arrow could not overcome.
I personally believe that the human resources to resurrect the Canadian aerospace industry does exist, but such an industry cannot be beholden to government contracts and regulation. It must be allowed to be more free market. Only then does it have a chance at re-establishing itself.
My Dad worked on the Arrow back in the 50's. He's 91 now and we took him to see the Arrow replica last summer. Told us how crushed everyone was when it was cancelled. Diefenbaker didn't just kill the program, he erased it from history. He'll be forever remembered as Canada's biggest tool.
did you mean to say fool?
Was your Dad crushed , because it was scrapped or because he was out of a job ?
I think Tru-dolt will take that prize with Diefenbaker a distant 2nd.
The arrow was a big lose to airplane world in general . But the story is not the only one like . Over here in the UK we had the Tsr 2 and that was cancelled and the tooling was scrapped like arrow
not a chance in hell your probably far to young to have a clue@@Redhotlugnut
Such a sad story and tragic ending to what would have been a great pride for all us Canadians.
Now as a Canadian I hate the usa for what they did there
Canadian goverment has no bals and is like sheep. Sad to say.Just look what is going on today.
@@Joe-by8jh why are u saying that it was obsolete when at the time it was not obsolete
@@gomax6676 what does the USA have to do with the arrow ? it was your own government. or you're saying that the US built the arrow for canada ?
@@ChristIsKing4ever-l9w basically what happened is that the canadian prime minister canceled the project for many reason and one is that the U.S told us that interceptors were becomming obsoletes and that's it I'm not blaming the U.S for canceling the project I'm blaming them for the contribution they had in ending the project
This might be your best video yet.
Thank you! I spent a month on it and took my time, I appreciate your feedback.
@@PilotPhotog Keep up the great work. Your production value alone will help you rise above the clouds or at least the other UA-cam channels. I’ve been subscribe since the first video I watched of yours.
@@ChrisShelton024 thank you and I appreciate your subscription!
My grandfather worked at AVRO in Malton. He was bitter about the cancellation of the Arrow and eventual demise of AVRO and cursed Diefenbaker’s name until his death. Wonderful video. I thank you on my grandfather’s behalf.
Rather than curse his name, I'd prefer seeing his name and all references to him stricken from Canadian history forever. He deserves no less.
@@sloopy5191 It is tempting to do so. But we should keep cursing his name as a reminder and warning to future generations of leaders and to the dangers of a nation not developing its own independent industrial and tech base.
One of my instructors at trade school , Mr. Hargraves, worked on the HVAC system for the Arrow and told us stories about the aircraft. It was amazing to talk to someone who actually help design and build the aircraft. At one time there were a lot of products made in Canada , by Canadian companies. We had a reputation of building good products by hard working people. Now , it seems like we source out everything. We desperately need vaccines and ppe , and again , we are sourcing them from other countries.
I work and live in Mainland China, and very few people in China were afraid of the C-19 because we all knew that the factories were all in China.
It appears Governments in Canada, especially Conservatives, are bent on the humiliation of our citizens. Bent of the castration of national pride and creativity. Bent on destroying the desire of all our people to achieve before ourselves and the world. In general politicians are self serving scum!
It is sad that the Arrow was cancelled and brought down the Canadian Aerospace industry with it. It was visually and apparently functionally ahead of its time.
It absolutely looks like a contemporary of 1970s jets to me, a shoulder winged counterpart to the Mirage
@@Omniseed A fighter too big, and probably not sturdy enough to do low level strike. It would not have lasted a decade in service before it uselessness would have been proven to all
@@Omniseed
The Mirage III first flew in 1956 and entered service in 1961.
Deltas were very much a contemporary 1950's design (Convair, Douglas, Avro, Avro Canada, Gloster, Saab, Dassault, MiG, etc.)
The Canadian aviation industry was doing just fine until the last few years with US tarrifs and COVID-19.
Aviation is far more than runaway defence spending that even the Americans are having trouble swallowing the bills for the F-35.
@@Bartonovich52 name a tier one Canadian company that was doing well before covid
I worked at the Canadian Aviation museum which had the Orenda engine on display. I was a security guard. The guys who had worked on the Arrow were always obvious. They would walk up to that engine and grieve. They were grown men who had had the hearts pulled out of them by the Diefenbaker government. I just left them alone. Perhaps the best lesson to come from the Arrow is that Canadians working by themselves, can achieve what other nations can only envy. I've always found it odd that we don't produce our own automobiles, aircraft and assorted world class weaponry. My father was a test engineer for RCEME and he was not an Arrow fan. He did however mention the Bras D'or with pride. He said that it would have rendered, when used with hydrophone tech, nuclear submarines obsolete. It was also cancelled. Dad had seen the Arrow fly and noted that if the pilot made an error over Toronto, he'd be past North Bay before his correction would be noticed. It should also be noted that Canadian armed forces are notorious for understating the abilities of their systems. Understandably so, but it makes me wonder what the Arrow and the Bras D'or could have actually done. Remember the words of Churchill when he said he could rule the world if he had among others, Canadian soldiers. It's a national unstated rule that we denigrate ourselves and our accomplishments, but take a good look at what we can do. Take a really close look. No, our flag is not the enemies' flag of surrender dipped in their blood, but as our enemies have discovered, we are The Free Canadians.
The Yanks bought the Bras D'or and renamed it. Still using it, I think.
@@airborne63 last I heard, the hull was in a museum someplace. Dad said the sponsons for the hydrofoils had microcracks in them. They were made of cast magnesium (?) and it was a barrier that they just couldn't cross. He saw the Bras D'Or in Halifax harbour and said he thought it was doing about 70 knots. I don't remember much else of what he told me. Much of his work was classified.
We don't even produce our own gasoline it's all shipped to Texas and we buy it back at crazy high prices. Maybe if Canada could manufacture our own goods and services we would not be broke and have more jobs. Instead we rely on the USA to supply us with everything we need to live and gas for our vehicles to move.
This is a severely underrated and deserves to be known by much more people
You did a great job on this. I am always a proud Canadian when I hear about the arrow and prouder still when I think that my grandfather worked on this project. I can tell you with 💯% certainty that not all drafts were destroyed.
"All Arrows go to heaven."
I am not... crying....
Not even canadian. But my eyes got teary. Arrow was beautiful
The aircraft that should’ve been protecting North America for decades. Canada’s loss was NASA’s gain when all those talented engineers went to work for NASA. What a shame, that aircraft was a beauty.
Protecting against what threat? ICBMs? The Russians understood early that flying bombers over the arctic was not the most effective solution. Spending billions in 50s dollars to develop a weapon to protect against the occasional Bear/Bison flight off the coasts would have been ridiculous. Canada had other commitments within NATO in Europe that the Arrow was completely ill suited for. Aircraft technology was changing at a furious pace in 1958/59. Multi-role fighters were the future. The Arrow was not.
The Arrow was a F106 on steroids with no mission. F106 initial orders were cut by over 60%. Canada should have bought F4s. Enough said.
@@ericb.4914 the Arrow was overrated by a mile.
that is false
@@bjjace1 No it was not over rated it just ended up a plane without a perceived mission. But it could have easily done strike missions that the F104's were later bought for.
@@Joe-by8jh you do not have a clue. The arrow was fly by wire and years ahead of any contemporary design. So joe go stick your head up your ass.
nice! in a game called "Project wingman" they have the CF-105 ingame, its really fun to fly.
Awesome I will have to check that out!
Cf 102 makes more sense
PW Arrow is a top-tier plane, solely because you get Prez lol
@@kimarykorlumiose7728 God I wish that game was on console I'd play this s*** out of it if it was
@@spartanx9293 Ace Combat Fan asked for it since he was at the tier to request a plane.
MY LORD what a beautiful design. Brings tears to my eyes!
My Dad worked for MacDonald Douglas for 30+ years...he was so angry about this project. He saw welders in cutting up every jig, die and every drawing involved destroyed. Its sad seeing what’s left of the facility - just an empty parking lot. Such memories of seeing him walk out of the security gate. My Dad passed 3 years ago and I have his picture of the Aero in my billiards room now. Great video...thanks for posting
Those are so damn good CGI renders! love the details on the model, just gotta add some clouds and afterburner effects to raise the production value fantastic work!
Thank you! I do plan on learning how to render clouds and 'burner effects - stay tuned!
OMG. Thank you so much for this. You made this canuck very happy - Bonus - most of the avro engineers went on to help in the Apollo missions. 🇨🇦
Glad you enjoyed it!
Oh yeah! I’ve been waiting for this episode. By the way, the graphics are outstanding 💯👍💯
Glad you like them!
I love how when the graphics became that the first aircraft was the YF-23 if there was any aircraft up to discussion it would always be the YF-23
I can see why
I love it and I wish they chosen both aircraft to go into service with redesigning the YF-23 to be a strike air to ground aircraft
My dad had a teacher in high school who worked on the avro, he said he’d talk for hours about how upset everyone was about the scrap of the project. He also had an avro model on his desk and blueprints.
The shock over the cancellation of the Arrow still resonates today...I would have loved to have seen those blueprints. Thanks for commenting and sharing!
@@PilotPhotog Drawings are in "The Arrow Scrapbook".
My Father worked at Orenda, he was a draftsman and helped finalize the blueprints for the turbine blades on the Iroquois engines. When the layoffs were announced, people were in shock, my older sister remembers Mothers on the street crying and consoling each other. I still have a sample section of the turbo fan blades, the tolerances are incredible considering this was before CNC matching.
In my personal, non biased opinion. This is hands down the best Arrow video on UA-cam that I've come across. The fact I got chills at the end of the video says a lot.
Shout out to Breedlejuice for going out to Malton for some shots. 🤙🤙
Thank you Six and your ongoing support speaks volumes. That was awesome of Breedlejuice to get those Malton pics!
@@molnibalage83 Show me a video better than this. Good luck, I'll wait. For the record, if you don't like it move on.
This is a video documentary about a fighter jet you’re not allowed to make me feel emotional 😣
Great video.
Thank you and the more I researched about the airplane, the more I admired it
I pass that sign everyday on the way to work. "Home of the Avro Arrow" now I know the history and significance behind it. Respect.
Definitely a big what if? One can only really imagine where Canada would be if the program never got cancelled.
Canada really is a great nation of innovation we have given so much to the world.
My personal favorites your Canada dry Ginger ale and Corner Gas thanks from Australia🤗
And had so much "stolen" by US interests...
The telephone and peanut butter are pretty good too.😊
"we have given so much to the world"
Yup. Canada has changed the world irrevocably,by giving the world Canadian Bacon. Well done!!!
@@bjjace1 As a Canadian I have never seen "Canadian bacon" except in the states, so I'm guessing they invented that one.😊✌
There were a few things about the cancellation of the Arrow and Iroquois engines. Louis St. Laurant said that even if he and the Liberals had been elected again in 1956, they would've cancelled the program too. The thing is, despite the costs, the funding was only coming from the military budget, so only the RCN and army would've been affected and not gotten new equipment until later. Another was something they discussed on CBC back in 1997 after the miniseries aired for the first time. Back then when countries were developing new aircraft and other military projects, they funded them on their own. Not like today when a group of countries get together and provide funding for such a project. That system just didn't exist at the time. Too bad. Considering the UK was interested as well as the USA, they could've also provided funding for the project. The French too, were interested in Iroquois engines. Another problem was that Canada didn't even have much of an aircraft industry at all until World War 2. It was mainly the British who made sure we had one because they came up with what's called Shadow Manufacturing if I remember correctly. This was why AVRO was building and shipping Lancaster bombers to the UK during the war. AVRO wasn't officially established until 1946 however. A series of mistakes made was AVRO having to cancel the Jetliner program. They only ever built and tested one and it could've been sold all over the world while competing with the British Comet, the world's first jetliner. John Diefenbaker and the Canadian government at the time were clearly not military strategists. Those Bomarc missiles they bought from the USA were scrapped after being proven faulty, which took them long enough. The USA cancelled them too. And despite that anti-aircraft missiles were developed and deployed in World War 2, the Germans were the first to use them, but there was a problem with them. Even in the 50s and 60s, the technology was too young, it just wasn't there yet and it wasn't reliable enough. They were jumping to conclusions that the Soviets had these giant missiles to launch spacecraft, along with the ability to make a nuclear strike. That too was still a young technology and the Soviets had not yet established a ballistic missile industry. This would be why they were still producing plenty of bombers. Even today, heavy bombers are still used. The B52 for one. Also the B2 Stealth bomber. Fighter/Bombers like the F15, F22 and F35 are still widely used because they can attack targets that are too far for cruise missiles to hit, despite that they need aerial refuelling more than once during each mission. Another example of how the Arrow would be more helpful. That and the Arrow only being an interceptor is ridiculous. It was more versatile than people think. Considering its range and weapon capacity, it seems with a little more development, it could've been used for ground attacks too. Its speed and service ceiling would've been suitable for hit-and-run missions on enemy bases. Put simply, it could've been used as a Fighter/Bomber. That and it could've been used for reconnaissance and even as a spy plane, considering how high it could go. Also, its service ceiling would've made it useful for keeping enemy spy planes out of our airspace.
The Avro jet liner was the best for it's day .
Technically, the Comet was larger and more advanced, cabin window structure aside.
One of the best arrow videos I've ever seen. And even learned something new about the engine testing that I've never heard before. I've also read that Lockheed secretly bought the plans of the arrow and Avrow's titanium business to help with the production of their blackbird.
Would love to see you do a video on Avrow's jet liner. Kind of good little story there too.
Thank you and glad you enjoyed the video - I will see what I can dig up on the Avro jet liner. Thanks for commenting!
" I've also read that Lockheed secretly bought the plans of the arrow and Avrow's titanium business to help with the production of their blackbird. " That's nonsense and utter horsecrap.
@@FIREBRAND38 please enlighten me with your vast knowledge on why that was horse crap.
@@chm985 Please provide me with proof that the ghost of Stalin didn't send the Arrow back in time to help him kill the dinosaurs.
@@simonouellet2215 🙄
John Diefenbaker was short sighted and with no sence of business. None. This is one major gaffe. It still resonates to this very day. We finally ended up with the F 101 and F 104. Ridiculous...
Way better. Cost less. Had longer service lives. Were more versatile.
Since Canada was ahead in terms of ingenenenty at the time, I really believe it could have been the Canadian space shuttle landing on the Moon. We always get screwed. By our useless politicians. They never see the bigger picture. Now Canada has lost thousands of talented individuals going all over the world, but Canada.
Canada could've just take some Phantoms instead of Starfighters and have a mixed fleet of F4s and F5s.
USED F-101s and used F-104s is what I have read
@@ronschock6545 Fact is Canada lost a cutting edge jet replaced with cast off US planes. A complete aero space industry along with the 20,000 jobs that industry supported. With the best and brightest of the newly unemployed leaving the country. Starting as little as 50 years later Canada finds the cost to replace [and fly] US jets prohibitive at best. IMO it would be a benefit to Canada to build in country and not rely on the an ever unreliable US military complex that is based around an open check book . Not having that manufacturing capacity is a loss of sovereignty....period
Malton boy here. If only I had a working time machine..I still hope one got away..Respect brother. I like your last sentence.
There was no conspiracy by the Americans to pressure the cancellation of the Avro Arrow as the Canadian fanboys seem to suggest.
There were two primary reasons:
1) The Soviets were getting away from long range bombers and investing heavily in ballistic missiles and the needs of a high speed interceptor became less.
2) This video explained it well. The leading edge tech and heavy use of premium material made the plane too expensive.
The Canadian government proved to be correct in cancelling the Arrow as dedicated platforms were soon to be a thing of the past and multi-role fighters became the norm to save money.
In fact at about 3 million + each, turns out that during its expected lifetime, the price would end up being extremely inexpensive; obviously a lack of political foresight, imo.
I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Jan Żurakowski on several occasions. To say that he was an amazing person would be a huge understatement. His last words to me were “see you next time” as he walked towards his house by the Arrow Road. RIP Mr. Jan__
The de Havilland Vampire was the rcaf’s first jet fighter in numbers beating the Avro Canuck CF-100 by at least three years. Six squadron’s I think. Thanks for doing the Arrow.
I believe he meant domestic made fighter?
That was a tear jerking ending... thank you
Thank you I am glad you enjoyed it - and I appreciate you commenting
Great video with great information as always. I had suggested this one a while ago , very pleased you decided to make it. My great grandfather worked on the Arrow as an electrical engineer. I grew up just down the road from Trenton Airbase where is was tested as well. As an aviation enthusiast the cancellation of the Arrow still makes me and many Canadians close to tears. Although all of the planes were cut up and destroyed many Canadians to this day still believe that there is a complete Arrow intact and hidden some where is a hanger. A large nose section of of number 206 is all we know for sure that exists. It is at The Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa. Recently a private collector is known to have an ejection seat from an Arrow, further fueling rumours of a hidden Arrow!
Thank you and thanks for suggesting this topic! Your great grandfather must have had some amazing stories to tell...regarding a still intact Arrow - my best guess would be numbers 207-209 which were as much as 91% completed and could have been candidates for "saving" an example. We may never know but it is very intriguing.
I'm pretty sure there is no unknown Arrow. The Americans where very afraid of this jet but most importantly afraid Russia would steal the tech. They had no confidence Canada could hide it, everything was destroyed. There is one out, the British owned Hawker Siddeley Canada came out of nowhere in the early 60's with the TS-2, the Arrow plans may exist.
very sad story... when I first heard about this jet, I instantly fell in love with it, basically a gen 4 fighter in the 1950s, americans and russians never even came close till the 70's
Same condition here in india....politics distroyed the aviation industry...finally after 30 years we gave order for tejas...
Yeah one consolation for us is that at least we didn't scrap the project. On the flip side, the airframe has been tested for 30years while the electronics and armaments are quite modern compared to the airframe. So we have a genuinely capable airframe with some of the most advanced technology now.
@@Orange_390 correct...but still should have gone for mass producing a long time ago..still nice to see finally it is coming alive
@@chiragpatil8207 yeah I agree with that. Better late than never tho.
Have a good day 👍.
@@molnibalage83 yeah well considering it was a second attempt at making a jet. I think it's pretty commendable.
Think of it this way, the struggle India has in making this jet is analogous to what US is doing with the F35.(Mind you, I say the struggle,more emphasis on the struggle part, I'm in NO way comparing the Tejas with the F35). Hope I get my point across satisfactorily.
@@molnibalage83 engine could have been bought....technically we should have gone for indegeneous weapons long time ago...as of right now the only area we are truly good at is missiles...😕😕 now the condition is better like our own radar(Uttam) ,own retractable refuling probe,own composite material etc...lets hope they continue🤟🤟🤟
Nothing can beat an Arrow . The C F - 105 Avro Arrow Will live in the hearts of those knew her ♥ and have the knowledge of this fantastic jet fighter . Built by Canadians for Canada 🇨🇦 .
It's sad the project was cancelled.
As they say, it's never too late. It will make all Canadians proud, and I am sure we still have plenty of talented people, to build one of the best fighter jets in the world.
God bless us all.
Very well done. There was a lot in there, especially the difficulties at the beginning with the various systems getting cancelled that I'd not heard or read about before. Like some others in the comments, I had family (great-grandfather) who worked on the plane, so it's been something I've been hearing about and been interested in for more than 30 years. Thank you for making this.
Over 60 years later... we STILL have manned fighter-bombers.... go figure... Not to mention that the Arrow never flew with the PS.13 Iroquois engine... the next one off the line WOULD have...
Dude, holycrap... can't believe I hadn't watched this one until now. Storytelling at its finest, Photog, great job!
Came across this well made video and just thought I would mention, my grandfather Edward Woodman worked on the project and i believe he was my great uncle. Capt Jack Woodman was a test pilot and if you go to the Air Museum in Hamilton there is a plack on the wall dedicated to another relative Ft.Ltn "Woody" Woodman. If Diefenshithead hadn't shut down the Arrow program Canada would be at the forefront of the aerospace program today. Love the video thanks.
At my local flight museum we have one of the windshield panels of the Arrow on display
Want a mach 2.3 interceptor with 900+ km range on internal fuel, internal weapons bay, and a 17000 m ceiling. The F106 first flown in Dec. 1956 in service 1959, F106 was there.
But a single engine only back when this was a important factor to consider.
My Grandfather was president of the Union for the Arrow.Always enjoyed his stories.
What a technical tragedy!
As an American, fond of advanced technical ingenuity in manufacturing, this moment in history was a real political hiccup!
Unbelievable and heartbreaking to get this far in and then cancel a project with this much success behind it.
It is too bad that the US government or aerospace industry didn't step up and purchase this technology, if Canada truly could not afford it.
The American Aviation industry wouldn't let the US Military buy them....and they flooded the market with cheaper fighters taking away any chance of Canada offsetting the cost by selling them.
It got killed by people not seeing the evolution of the missle threat and need for fighters and by the complexity of the project.
It just sucked. As a Canadian, it is a tragedy but no one really knows now that it likely was inevitable
It was american influence that killed it!!!!
@@slewter9041 .....it was 90% your guy at the top and his Leftist buddies!
@@elricofarmer1561 Dief was a conservative P.M. cancelling an ineffective liberal boondoggle if you can believe it.
@@nicholaspatton1742 🤔
Never heard that angle!
My great uncle worked on a number of parts of the actual aircraft, but he always said he was proudest of being the one who machined the nose cones for the models that were fired off into lake ontario.
Yep I worked there to. It was such a shock just for a phone call and said of the cancellation of the Arrow and then the announcement came just said drop what you are doing and go home ,that was it no job 1500 people out of a job and it was a total shock ,never even knew. ThAt was coming BLACK FRIDAY MARCH 20. 1959
I couldn't help but imagine an Air Force equipped with Arrows and TSR 2s.
The Arrow would have been useless very fast. It was designed to tackle bombers, not ICBMs. It wouldn't have shadowed "lost" soviet reconnaissance planes for very long before a cheaper replacement would have been chosen
@ Canada is massive and needs planes that can get to our borders quick. look at the mig-31 that's a full blown Intercepter, its still in service today, its quick and can get to borders quickly. A Mark 3 arrow would be a good start. We don't need strike planes.
@@eric4369 You know the XF-108 was cancelled too ? The CF-105 wasnt sustainable. A F-4 type jet would have been good enough to escort back lost soviet maritime planes. The soviets got the mig 25 mostly because the US had the SR 71
@ Yeah i knew about that. pretty much every country that was working on an interceptor type aircraft scrapped the project. What im saying now is that we take the plans and update them to bring them into the modern age. Making the arrow the way it was wont work for today, however it could be modified to carry out the roles we need for fighter jets today. Besides canada needs something that can travel long distances and can travel fast and interceptor/hybrid might be a possibility.
@@eric4369 You know that a plane like the F-18, the F-15, the Su-27, the Rafale or the Eurofighter and in the 1960s the F-4 Phantom can do the job ? A medium size twin engine design (much more survivable) , with tanker support, can do the job as well as a huge plane.
Thank you, for listening and informing aviation enthusiast!
Unfortunately, Canadian aviation know how died along with the Arrow. Had it been produced, it's likely it would still be of some value. It was that far ahead of its time. As an airframe, it was brilliant...
The Arrow would have been just the beginning. The beginning of the creation of an aerospace industry and various spin offs that would have ensured Canada's long term prosperity for generations to come.
Even though Diefenbaker is dead his decision is still robbing future generations of Canadians.
fact the specification the arrow was designed for has not been matched or exceeded to this day ... the f18 f22 and f35 dont even match it .. the yf23 almost did ... and the arrow was a tube based computer ... and it was 60+ years ago ... it would still be better than what we have today .
Look at how upset Boeing got when Canada its own Jet. The CS had to be sold so soon as not to upset them.
@@0623kaboom Whatever it is you are taking you should probably stop. 1959 was, like you said, 60 years ago. Your comments are slap in the face of all the technology and developments that have occurred since then. The Arrow would not fare well against Gen 4 and Gen 5 fighters. Many lessons were learned in the air above Vietnam and the numerous Israeli/Arab conflicts.
Ask a pilot if he would prefer to enter combat with an F15 or an 1959 Arrow. That would be like asking a Formula 1 driver if he would prefer to enter the next race with a Ferrari 246P from 1960. Sure it was the first rear engine race car produced by Ferrari but....
Bravo! I do believe you have created the most accurate short documentary of the Arrow that I have seen to date. Thank you @pilotphotog. You and your team have done well.
@@molnibalage83 you are comparing different generation and different design purpose aircraft. None of what you say applies. Good day
@@molnibalage83 one question: What Soviet threat is still around?
@@molnibalage83 (knowing you are googling) The answer is the Tu-95.
Enough of the ignorance. Read a book.
@@molnibalage83 typical. You missed all of the context of the documentary and that of my reply of the exact thing the Arrow was designed to take on. The Bear is still flying and is still a very effective nuclear bomber.
The point is, we were the leading edge of aeronautical engineering and made massive gains in technology that the world would benefit from.
Thank you very much - BTW this is a one person operation - I do all of this on my own, which is why I don't release videos as frequently as other channels, but I do the best i can. Again my thanks
Just one of the many Canada military apportions that continues until this day
Great Documentary! Thanks for publishing.
When i was young my father just cant Stop speakin about the special jet ...
Great video. We can thank Diefenbaker for it's demise.
Was in a semi private room in 2005 and shared it with a 69 year old gent (Jim) that was 15 years old working in the warehouse during the build of the Arrow and was laid of after the project was shut down. He was recalled to help in the warehouse and saw all those Beautiful birds being cut up and was saddened by what was going on. He had many tales to tell.
Thanks for this wonderful reminder of our talents here. 🇨🇦
The engine was the "Iroquois"...not the "Iriquois"! Great video!
Thanks for the info!
Pity it was never built and further developed, such a sexy aircraft.
Indeed and thanks for commenting!
I saw fan art of the arrow being 5th generation with stealth and I tell you this
That art is more sexy than the actual thing
To know why it was scrapped one only needs to know some of it's shortcomings. It was a single roll aircraft. Not built for ground support for example. It was good only for bomber interception. The Canadian economy was in a recession caused by the previous Liberal Government of Louis St Laurent's vast overspending on military and social programs. The Arrow program had put the economy into heugh debt for the time and the aircraft was still in the prototype stage.
Bull shit!
@@vmitchinson Thats it? No rebuttal? Just what exactly in Aub Mar's comment is "Bull Shit".
You're right of course but don't try telling that to little Canuckleheads, they've been brought up on propaganda about its greatness. It was actually a total flop and would have been obsolete by the time it took flight.
They could have sold it to many countries, getting out of debt.
What was required of the arrow in those days is still relevant to this day. Amazing how the interceptor is still on the leading edge of every major world power, with no sign of fading any time soon. So it certainly was ahead of its time, & everyone else.
The cancellation of the Arrow did far more than destroy a good jet fighter program.
It permanently destroyed trust in the Canadian procurement system. No one will ever develop a large scale advanced weapons system solely or primarily for the Canadian military ever again.
the funds got diverted to the WE Charity
It was a Conservative government that scrapped the project. It was introduced under the Liberals
@@rmelo5932 If you read "The Arrow Scrapbook" you'll see The Conartists only followed what the Lieberals had planned had they won the election. They both listened to their generals, who preferred missiles.
The US just couldn’t have Canada producing superior aircraft.
They had the F-106 which was faster and in actually in service by June 1959. Brits had the English Electric Lightning which was in service and faster by December on 1959. there wasn't anything that exceptional about the Arrow and the bomber interception mission it was built for wasnt the biggest concern before development ended
@@simonouellet2215 Simon. If that is correct why did the Americans demand that not only did the planes need to be destroyed but also all of the design informatiom? Even more strange Canada had orders from France for several of the engines and the Americans required the orders be cancelled and that we never make the engines in the future. Doesn't that seem strange if the it was a really, really average aircraft as you claim?
@@bobcrane9945 France never ended up building the bigger Mirage IVB bomber, plus they dropped the Iroquois from consideration in 1958 because even at that point the Arrow program looked to be on the chopping block. The de Havilland Gyron was a contemporary engine that slightly surpassed the Iroquois's performance but it got cancelled too when the UK gov saw that it was a stupid waste of money. Nobody was buying them or the giant mach 2+ interceptors/bombers they would power. the US had their own and the Soviet Union would too very shortly. The Cold War paranoia was in effect, remember. Nobody was buying the arrow or engine, the military evaluations were not particularly kind and the RCMP saw commie spies everywhere. So the Government destroyed the remnants of the project and from there the legend grew and grew and now it's an article of faith that the Arrow would beat an X-Wing and an F-35 at the same time.
@@simonouellet2215 Thank you for responding but if the plane was as useless and unmarketable as you say why would the "commie spie" possibly want to steal the plans?
@Olivier Theriault ????
Wonderful video I think the Arrow is a beautiful aircraft
Thank you for the two likes and the Arrow should be in the war thunder
Very well rounded video. I really enjoyed every minute. Wonderful job.
Thank you very much!
Cancelling this beauty is the biggest mistake the Canadian government ever made. It would still be one of the top fighters in the world today, even without upgrades beyond the original 2 engine designs.
If the CF-18 ia anything to go by, the RCAF would still be flying them....
@@vonpredator we'd probably be at "Arrow Mk XXVII" it would be a Canadian Spitfire complete with an infinite list of variants!
@@molnibalage83 first, it already had been planned to carry ordinance other than missiles so it was already (in a limited capacity) planned to be a multi purpose aircraft. Also, the F-4 was planned to use the same crappy missiles but they changed it to use different ones, why would Canada not be able to do the same? With the high cost, anything you build in limited production is going to be far more expensive than the rest once you begin mass production, also there were several countries with very deep pockets who were interested in purchasing the plane and would have loved to buy them once they realized there would still be a use for fighter aircraft and the Arrow had been upgraded to use better weapons and to have better engines (Imagine if it had the same or better engines than the phantom).
Also, do you just like trying to kill other people's fun?
@@hefish Exactly my thinking. As I said, the ORIGINAL variant could still take on fighters today in some aspects. Never said we’d still be flying that variant. The rate they were developing it, chances are a 5th or even 6th gen fighter would be out, or at least being prototyped, now. Want proof? Just look at the programs that the very people who designed the arrow went on to work on and create. The cost would’ve easily been absorbed with foreign orders, same as they’re doing with the money-pit F35.
The killing of the C-102 Jetliner didn't help either.
My dad worked there and watched the awesome flight demonstration .. and along with the hundreds of employees, he lost his job when the Arrow was canceled..
I am sorry to hear that, thank you for sharing and the Arrow must have been an amazing site to see in person.
@@PilotPhotog Yes.. he was totally amazed to see the Arrow fly straight up and disappear... talked about that historical event quite a lot
Imagine a world with both the Avro Arrow and F-108 Rapier in formation...
And the TSR 2
Useless toys that would have been obsolete quite fast
They were cutting edge and very advanced for their time. The F-106 was in service until 1988, MiG-21s are still in operation worldwide and Japan recently retired their remaining F-4 Phantoms. Those birds were obsolete for decades, yet still served adequately.
@@mikmadpro the Mig 21 is not a large interceptor. The CF-105, like the XF-108 was doomed. It rolled out of the factory the same day Sputnil was launched
@, you’re missing the point of something serving long past being considered ‘obsolete’, plus the possibilities of gaining new data/research to advance the technology of that time slightly further.
I genuinely hope the arrow comes back, knowing your airplane is a homegrown design is a great morale boost, and I’m sure there are still some bits of plans left of the thing, maybe somewhere France still has a copy of those engines
I saw it fly ! ORANGEVILLE ONT on my way back from hunting on my way home in a clear blue sky on its approach into Malton Ont. Hundreds in the town lost their jobs and the next time Diefenbaker came through town on a train campaigning he was greeted with thousands of snow balls and left.
Epic Work! I think this might be your best video to date Photog
Wow, thank you and much appreciated! I kind of had to learn 3D modelling/animation since there wasn't much usable footage of the Arrow. Glad you enjoyed the video.
These are great videos, but the day glow red and white scheme was just used on the prototypes. In service CF 105's would have been natural metal or light gray.
Indeed and thanks for commenting - I just wanted to show RL-201 through 206 flying. I may do an update video sometime where I show what an RCAF Arrow would have looked like - and I will start working on the photoshop skins used in the 3d model.
Delta Wing looks so cool.
The front of a F4 phantom, the middle of a Mirage IV, the rear of a A5 Vigilante ^^
Correction the phantom has the front of the earlier, ahead of its time, arrow and so on..............
Sid Kahn.
I did preliminary planning of the control surfaces while working for consulting engineers, and later worked for Orenda Engines, in Experimental Blade planning and development. Three months before we were redundant, 6 planners in my department were invited to dinner at the Royal York Hotel in Toronto,by Boeing Aircraft, and offered jobs, twice the salary, all expenses to move our families to California, and a new home in a new subdivision. One of our team made the change. The deal with Diefenbaker was made many months before Avro closed in 1959. The Iriquois engine had 20,000 pounds of thrust, 10,000 pounds more than the best engine in the U. S. Canada could have been the largest manufacturer of aircraft in the world. In one day, 14,000 people were redundant, 40,000 people working for sub contractors were also redundant. A black day in Canada.
So! Where are the 4 AVRO Arrows? I would be wonderful to see them! As Well Flying!
The flying aircraft were all cut up with cutting torches and sent to scrap. Only the cone section of one was managed to be saved it's in the Canadian Aviation Museum. The UK offered to buy the finished ones for research but were refused. Cries of coverup - imagine the embarrassment if UK then copied and produced them.
They were cut up but the scap was taken the usa where they studied and many of the ideas ended up in the next generation American fighter jets
A Canadian creation Beauty, proud for ever, a classic bird!!
RL206 was never in the line up of arrows that were dismantled and infact went missing. On the morning the Arrow's were to be dismantled Orangeville Ontario and Fort Drum in NY state were woken up to a supersonic boom
And it still flies. Though it's likely very secret of where it goes. I worked met section in the early 1990s, and was stationed at CFB Greenwood. RL206 made "an appearance" at an air show briefly that year. Never heard or seen it since, but it seems likely that it would continue showing up from time to time.
@Tulock the Werewolf that was a model that was put in the nose of a rocket for flight testing and fired over lake ontario
Cool your conspirasy jets. No working Arrow's survived. There are no working Arrow's hiding in Area 51. You can't just hop in and steal an aircraft without anyone noticing. It is not a shopping cart.
@@rmelo5932 then explain the supersonic boom heard over Orangeville and Fort Drum that morning? Explain the fact that there are pictures of all the other Arrows being dismantled but not 1 of RL206 being dismantled? Explain the word of those who did the dismantling saying that RL206 was missing the day they showed up to start dismantling it? Explain why the airframe of the SR-71 is almost a carbon copy of the Arrow?
These are known facts not conspiracy theories. There are also many books on the subject written by those who were there.
Explain how the nose of RL-206 is in the National Aviation Museum in Ottawa?
Great short video on the Arrow. Ive been obsessed with it since i was about 10 in 1980. My father borrowed a book from the library called “there never was an Arrow” written by E.K. Shaw, a female engineer at Avro Canada. It caught my attention because of just how angry it made my father. His rants were legendary but they peaked with the Arrow and that book. It delves into both the technical side and the political side, and the political side was hard to read without making me wish i could have a few minutes with Diefenbaker alone. I have read and watched every thing i could find on the Arrow all my life, but i have never been able to finish more than about half of “their never was an arrow” after multiple attempts. I just have to stop to keep sane.
I am glad you enjoyed the Arrow video and let's just say it will be making another appearance on this channel soon - stay tuned!
Black Friday broke my heart. I was in middle school, then called Jr. High, at the time and planning to join the RCAF when I finished high school so I could fly the Arrow; I don't think I've had a greater disappointment since.
The Arrow is my fav plane ever! Thank you for the video!
I'm one of the tens of thousands of aerospace enthusiasts who wonder what role the United States played in snuffing not only the program but also the years of research, planning, and development of such a revolutionary aircraft. The powers that be erased everything but the memories. The program and the plane deserved a more honorable ending.
I'm one of the aerospace enthusiasts who wonders why the US is suspected of playing any role in the "snuffing" of a program that 1) they had actually supported and 2) stood to benefit from by being the supplier of missiles and electronics. In developing Arrow, Canada made use of American windtunnels and telemetry equipment, and had the use of American engines. An American B-47 was even loaned to Canada to test fly the Orenda engine, the same engine that Canada never got around to flying an Arrow...or any other airplane. Americans even assisted in training Canada's test pilots. America had absoliutely nothing to fear from an airplane that was no faster or longer ranged - or carried the same weapons - as airplanes already flown by the US (and other countries). The F-4 Phantom, already developed, matched or surpassed the Arrow in any number of areas, and was cheaper. Arrow was an airplane that nobody really wanted, or could afford. Canada could barely afford to develop it, and after nearly a year of testing, loggged only about 70 flight horus among 5 planes.
But somehow, this was America's fault becaus eof...reasons?
@@winternow2242 It's refreshing to know that we share the same opinion on issues like this.👍
This would have been the premier interceptor of it's day. In the movie about the Arrow, the head of Avro, (portrayed by Dan Akroyd) tells Deifenbaker, "It's people like you that keep Canada from being great." I swear, politicians exist to F things up.
Canada's loss was America's gain, especially via NASA.
Excellent content PilotPhotog! I’ve been hoping you’d do a video on the Avro that was given the ax. This story has always fascinated me and to this day, still does. For those who aren’t aware...STS = space transportation system.
Thank you and glad you liked it!
Aesthetically flawless. There is always something to be said for the equation: beauty = perfection.
Fantastic animations and information in this one. Thank you so much!
Thank you, glad you enjoyed the animations!
Without any doubt the world would be very different had the arrow been allowed to be produced.
It's crazy how much progress in aviation was made in the 20yrs after the end of WW2. So many of the aircraft designed in that time are still in active service today.
I am convinced that the Arrow was scuttled under pressure of the Americans who wanted no competition for their F-104’s and F-4’s.
and then the yanks came and took all the equipment in the plant used to build it....
@@rorymunroe3771
I was very young when this happened but even so, I remember it well. Diefenbaker was a real bastard and he looked the part. McPherson, the cartoonist of the Toronto daily Star, had a field day with him.
I used to think the same. Research proved otherwise. If you read "The Arrow Scrapbook" you'll see The Conartists only followed what the Lieberals had planned had they won the election. They both listened to their generals, who preferred missiles.
The Amercians wanted the Canadian technology and brains to help reverse-engineer the Roswell saucer.
more like no competition with the f-18 and f-22 the arrows design and use case for Canada it would of obsoleted any export options for at least 40 years maybe more with revised designs and modernized technology. America didnt like the fact that an economy a fraction of their size was making weapons and tech 15 years ahead of theres for a fraction of the price. the only comparable jet in use is the su-25 and even then as an interceptor the 105 would have squashed it...
The real sick part was that the Arrow of then is still faster and more combat able then the CF 18 and with a few redesigns would be among the top 3 in the world .
Good presentation. Arrow was ahead of its time and many Canadians do complain about its demise until this very day. Do cover North American XB-70 Valkyrie, XF-108 Rapier & Vigilante in the future. And maybe the Mitsubishi X-2 if possible.
All excellent choices and I will see how to 3D model them - thanks for commenting!
Thanks for mentioning the area rule. Was wondering it had been designed that way. Sounds just a few tweaks were added based on wind tunnel tests.
When we threw out the Arrow, we didn't just throw out a plane, but Canada's sovereignty and future.
Thanks for a VERY well done video with no stupid loud music in the back ground
Like father, like son.
God bless the Arrow.