Since when do annihilationists believe that God destroys the unsaved because of potential low quality-of-afterlife? Rather, they're annihilated because of their wickedness, it's capital punishment which they deserve because of their rejection of the life giver.
This argument falls apart if you believe Hell truly is a place of eternal conscious torment. If you believe that human beings are made in the image of God so it's unjust to kill them it follows that it would be unjust to torture them.
No annihilationist argues that the reason for people being destroyed in hell is because they have a low quality of life but instead because justice demands it.
This argument doesn't quite seem to line up in my view. First, the moral analogy of the pro-life position and the preservation of eternal existence in torment does not appear to me to be a viable comparison. We have no right to take the lives of babies because we are not the ultimate causal author of those lives (though obviously we are involved in the process of reproduction), whereas God is and therefore has every right to extinguish those who reject him. Second, it seems that Brett assumes the reason conditionalists believe God annihilates unbelievers in the end is due to the moral challenge that would be presented with allowing conscious eternal torment, as though God first considered the option of conscious eternal torment but then turned it down in favor of annihilation since he thought that the "low quality of existence" would be immoral. In contrast, I understand the conditionalist position to be that God immediately chose the perfectly just and righteous choice of annihilation due to its intrinsic, ultimate justice, not because it was a "plan B" after the initial choice of God was deemed by him to be too extreme. Finally, I find the statement "someone's low quality of existence, being in eternal conscious torment in hell, is not justification for God to extinguish their existence" to be attributing to God a weighty principle of morality on the basis of a rather shaky analogy (which I indicated in the first objection). To draw such hefty conclusions about which things God is not morally justified to do within such abstract topics as this, I would think that biblical arguments would be much preferred to philosophical pontifications based on questionable analogies. I'm by no means trying to bash Brett as a person, but rather raise in clear terms the problems I see in his argumentation (as an aside, I'd be shocked if anyone even got to the end of this lengthy response that I for some reason felt driven to compose). Feel free to disagree & engage with me on it!
The Bible teaches annihilation with a sin-dependent burn time, this is why the judgement is described as worse for some, and the devil is said to be "tormented day and night forever and ever". Satan will probably go in the coolest part of the fire and take several days to be consumed as the punishment for several thousand years of the worst kind of wickedness, whereas your worst of humans might last a day and your average friendly uninterested in Jesus guy will probably fizzle out in a few seconds. There is a false version of annihilationism where the sin lover just goes to the grave with no resurrection of judgement. Saying "extinguished" after death like in atheism is inaccurate as technically the sin lover who has died "the first death" is held in suspended animation until the end of the millenium when the judgement of condemnation takes place and they have to "face the fire".
The Bible clearly teaches annihilationism. There are at least 200 verses teaching Annihilationism in Scripture. The wicked will perish and disappear. If we want to ignore Scripture in favour of philosophy, then at least choose the superior Greek view, that is Universalism, not the horrid doctrine of eternal torment and eternal cosmic dualism.
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement "no rest day or night" makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. How about the STORY of Lazarus and the rich man. The fact that Jesus spoke of Lazarus by name, shows this was NOT a parable or metaphor. AND once again, if you think this story was a parable or metaphor...then for what? How would describing a man saying, "I am in torment in these flames..." indicate annihilation? How about the fact that Revelation 20:13 has "death and Hades (Hell) gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged." If they already died and went to Hades (hell) then how are they judged IF they were annihilated? Answer; they were NOT annihilated. Finally, with all the above explanations on a score of verses, why didn't God just say, "I will annihilate the wicked?
The Biblical annihilationist position has never made this argument, emotional people may have but this seems a straw man argument. The Biblical position for annihilations is so strong you can't get a debate anymore, even Al Moller was beaten to a pulp, (a smarter guy you won't find). But on the philosophical side one could say why would God punish forever? What reason would there be? Torturing forever is a bad word to the "eternal conscious torment" people they prefer punishment, but punishment to what end? The Bible says that "...the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life..." Rom 6:23. Both Biblically and philosophically this means that the only people who have eternal life are those that get the gift from God, (law of non contradiction). The Greek word for death here is 'thanatos' which means death just like you think it does. It doesn't mean a lower level, or quality of life as Brent has stated.
Donavan Dear annihilation is just foolishness, scripture strongly refutes such position, but as always people can just cherry-pick verses to support any idea they desire, like Hitler did about jews. Matt 25:41 + Rev 19:20 + Rev 14:11
Cody Clemmons I did probably hear + read all the arguments, those were justed cherry picked + an interpretation outside of scripture... just like you did***, people just do not understand what sin is and who God is, thats why it is not so easy to understand for sinful creatures. ***quote : "pre-Christian pagan idea from Egypt that was embraced by Greek philosophers."
i could be incorrect but i there are about 14 verses in the NT where jesus talks about hell.HE does not say anything about burnin forever and ever..HE does say people will be "burned up".."destroyed".."perish".. in 2peter3:10 it says "both the earth &the works that are in the earth will be burned up " john3:16 the word "perish"is used.. romans6:23 for the wages of sin is death but the gift of GOD is eternal life. if you burn FOREVER in hell then you also have ETERNAL LIFE do you not... something is not adding up.. how can the saved and the damned have eternal life???? luke13:3 you will perish john3:16 you should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE!!!! how can someone be not there and there at the same time???? matt25:46 eternal punishment is SINGULAR NOT PLURAL.. the punishment is eternal but not the punishing.. matt10:28 this is very direct FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY... THAT IS VERY CLEAR.. matt7:13-14 the word DESTRUCTION.. ALL THIS FROM THE NT. the NT must match up with the OT not the other way round...WHY???? b ecause does it not say....GOD NEVER CHANGES... SO what is said in the OT should be the same in the NT. NOW FROM THE OT...ALM :9-20 the wicked will be no more....FOR the wicked will PERISH. for the enemies of the LORD like the splender of the meadow shall vanish. MALACHI3:6 for i am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT..........THAT IS GOD SPEAKING.. HE cannot say something different in the NT now can HE???? MALACHI 4:1-3 the wicked will be stubble,shall burn them up ,leave them neither nor root or branch, they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet... THIS IS GOD SAYING THIS NOT MAN....THESE ARE GODS WORDS would this not be ANNIHILATION????? psalm145:20 all the wicked will destroy. psalm 21:9 the fire will devour them... OBADIAH 1:15-16 they shall be as if they never were... psalm 92:7 though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers florish THEY WILL BE FOREVER DESTROYED..... THAT IS A POWERFULL STATEMENT... psalm 10:20 but the wicked will perish and the enemines of the LORD shall be as the fat of the lambs, they shall consume into smoke they will consume away.. AGAIN THAT IS PRETTY POWERFULL STATEMENT.. EZEKIEL 28::18-19 THIS IS GOD SPEAKING.......i will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and i will bring thee the ashes upon the earth in sight of all them that behold thee... NT... TIES IN WITH THE OT here 2PETER 2:6 SODOM AND GOMORRHA were set as example, they were destroyed and made into ASHES... is that place still burning today??? ALL THIS POINTS TO " COMPLETE ANNIHILATION " please show me where i am WRONG????? how can the damned also ETERNAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT IS HELL... IF THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ....... GOD LIED AND EVERYONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE...
A good starting place for understanding why STR believes in Hell and NOT annihilation, see the below: www.str.org/w/hell-interrupted-part-1 www.str.org/w/hell-interrupted-part-2 www.str.org/w/hell-interrupted-part-3
This philosophical argument is weak, to say the least. If a baby is born into poverty, it doesn't mean that he or she will have to stay there. A baby is intrinsically valuable because he or she is made in God's image, has personality, and the freedom to make decision; even decisions to better his or her circumstances. In the traditional view of hell, that is not an option.
This is not what theological Anhiliationalism is. Instead, when a sinner dies in unrepentence, he is sent to Hell (Hades) to be stored, there will be torment for sinners there. Then, at the Ressurection, when all saints are given new, physical bodies, the sinners, the great Antichrist, the Dragon, and the False Prophet will be sent to the Lake of Fire for destruction. As a new Heaven and Earth will be formed, why would God have need to sinner and the saints in the new universe?
a child is innocent and bears the image of GOD in full glory therefore does not fall under judgement, where as a adult does fall under judgement for he bears the image he is likened unto in this case satan therefore has fallen from the glory . does not a golden cistern lose its value over time and whats inside it?
I'd be careful with presenting philosophical arguments against theological positions like this. The bible should be our final authority, man-made fallible human arguments like these succeed or fall on the basis of human reasoning, not Gods reasoning. Every position like this should be made on the basis of the word of God, not a philosophical argument.
My whole life I believed that souls lived forever. I believed that they either lived forever in heaven or lived forever in hell. The idea that souls live forever has been the traditional teaching of Christian churches for centuries. But is the idea that souls live forever based on scripture or based on tradition? Does the Bible say that souls live forever? -Matthew 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”. Jesus plainly states that God can destroy the soul. The word Jesus uses for “destroy” is “apollumi”. “Apollumi” literally means “to bring to an end”. Jesus plainly states that God can bring an end to both the body and the soul. -John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” In this, the most quoted verse in the Bible, Jesus sets up a dichotomy. People will either perish or have eternal life. The word that Jesus uses for “perish”, is the exact same word (apollumi) that He uses in Matthew 10:28. In John 3:16, Jesus is warning that unbelievers will not live forever but rather will come “to an end”. -Notice that the dichotomy set up in John 3:16 isn’t: “live forever in hell” or “live forever in heaven”. The dichotomy is “perish” or “eternal life”. The soul does not automatically live forever. It only lives forever if we believe in Jesus. If we don’t believe in Jesus, then our soul perishes (brought to an end) according to John 3:16. Jesus’ listeners knew what “apollumi” meant and it does not mean forever suffering. -Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few”. Again, Jesus sets up the dichotomy. Our fate is either “destruction” or “life”. Again, Jesus uses the word “apollumi” for destruction. The dichotomy isn’t “life in hell” or “life in heaven”. It’s either “destruction” or “life”. --The word “apollumi” (to bring to an end) is used to describe the fate of unbelievers in: II Thessalonians 1:9 , Luke 20:16, Philippians 3:19, Galatians 6:8, II Thes 2:10, II Peter 3:9, Philippians 1:28, Hebrews 10:39 and other spots. The fate of unbelievers is always described as destruction not “living in hell”. -Psalm 92:7 “ . . . all evil doers are doomed to destruction forever; but you O Lord are on high forever”. The Hebrew word for “destruction” in this verse is “shamad”. “Shamad” literally means “to be exterminated”. This passage says evil doers are exterminated forever, not living forever. Again, living forever is a gift from God. -Psalm 37:28 “For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His godly ones; they are preserved forever; but the descendants of the wicked will be cut off”. The expression “cut off” is the same word “shamad” meaning “to be exterminated”. Also, notice the dichotomy, godly ones will be preserved forever, wicked will be exterminated. -Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked will perish; and the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, they vanish-like smoke they vanish away”. The Hebrew word used here for “perish is “abad”. Other meanings of “abad” include: “obliterate”; “utterly destroyed” and “annihilated”. The Hebrew word for “vanish” is “kalah”. Other meanings of “kalah” include: “to be complete”; “at an end”; “finished”. When the writer of Psalm 37 describes the fate of godly people the word “forever” is used. When describing the fate of the wicked people, the word “extermination” is used. Psalm 37 does not state or imply that the wicked live forever. Quite the opposite, they are exterminated. The dichotomy is: believers=life vs. non-believers=extermination. (Psalm 1:6 also uses the word “abad”).
another point of where i think you are incorrect/wrong is as of right now ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL, WE THE SAVED dont put on immortality until the the judgement is over.. and only the saved get to put on immortality ... show me in the bible where the lost or the people who reject/ do not accept jesus as their savior get to put on immortality... they dont, so if they dont get to put on immortality then at some point they will be no more, they are annihilated and no longer exist... explain all the passages in the OT....even the ones where GOD is speaking..... are you going to say GOD did not say what HE said in the OT or that GOD IS ....READY " WRONG " and YOU ARE RIGHT/CORRECT.... YOU KNOW MORE THAN GOD??????? you cant...
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement "no rest day or night" makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. How about the STORY of Lazarus and the rich man. The fact that Jesus spoke of Lazarus by name, shows this was NOT a parable or metaphor. AND once again, if you think this story was a parable or metaphor...then for what? How would describing a man saying, "I am in torment in these flames..." indicate annihilation? How about the fact that Revelation 20:13 has "death and Hades (Hell) gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged." If they already died and went to Hades (hell) then how are they judged IF they were annihilated? Answer; they were NOT annihilated. Finally, with all the above explanations on a score of verses, why didn't God just say, "I will annihilate the wicked?
Since when do annihilationists believe that God destroys the unsaved because of potential low quality-of-afterlife? Rather, they're annihilated because of their wickedness, it's capital punishment which they deserve because of their rejection of the life giver.
So it sounds philosophically accurate to let the beings you love be in torment forever in a place you created?
Exactly.
This argument falls apart if you believe Hell truly is a place of eternal conscious torment. If you believe that human beings are made in the image of God so it's unjust to kill them it follows that it would be unjust to torture them.
No annihilationist argues that the reason for people being destroyed in hell is because they have a low quality of life but instead because justice demands it.
Exactly. Ppl don't go to heaven because they have a "high quality of life." Lol
Philosophically, it makes more sense to end all evil, pain, and sorrow, then to allow it to exist for all eternity.
This argument doesn't quite seem to line up in my view.
First, the moral analogy of the pro-life position and the preservation of eternal existence in torment does not appear to me to be a viable comparison. We have no right to take the lives of babies because we are not the ultimate causal author of those lives (though obviously we are involved in the process of reproduction), whereas God is and therefore has every right to extinguish those who reject him.
Second, it seems that Brett assumes the reason conditionalists believe God annihilates unbelievers in the end is due to the moral challenge that would be presented with allowing conscious eternal torment, as though God first considered the option of conscious eternal torment but then turned it down in favor of annihilation since he thought that the "low quality of existence" would be immoral. In contrast, I understand the conditionalist position to be that God immediately chose the perfectly just and righteous choice of annihilation due to its intrinsic, ultimate justice, not because it was a "plan B" after the initial choice of God was deemed by him to be too extreme.
Finally, I find the statement "someone's low quality of existence, being in eternal conscious torment in hell, is not justification for God to extinguish their existence" to be attributing to God a weighty principle of morality on the basis of a rather shaky analogy (which I indicated in the first objection). To draw such hefty conclusions about which things God is not morally justified to do within such abstract topics as this, I would think that biblical arguments would be much preferred to philosophical pontifications based on questionable analogies.
I'm by no means trying to bash Brett as a person, but rather raise in clear terms the problems I see in his argumentation (as an aside, I'd be shocked if anyone even got to the end of this lengthy response that I for some reason felt driven to compose). Feel free to disagree & engage with me on it!
You have a philosophical argumet because you can't find a biblical one.
true, bible thoroughly supports annihilation of sinners, I always wonder why people still stick to the devilish pagan doctrine of eternal damnation..
+Madara That's so true. The Bible says annihilationism throughout its pages
The Bible teaches annihilation with a sin-dependent burn time, this is why the judgement is described as worse for some, and the devil is said to be "tormented day and night forever and ever". Satan will probably go in the coolest part of the fire and take several days to be consumed as the punishment for several thousand years of the worst kind of wickedness, whereas your worst of humans might last a day and your average friendly uninterested in Jesus guy will probably fizzle out in a few seconds.
There is a false version of annihilationism where the sin lover just goes to the grave with no resurrection of judgement. Saying "extinguished" after death like in atheism is inaccurate as technically the sin lover who has died "the first death" is held in suspended animation until the end of the millenium when the judgement of condemnation takes place and they have to "face the fire".
Madara you're just scared
Tim Lewis sounds good unfortunately false
The Bible clearly teaches annihilationism. There are at least 200 verses teaching Annihilationism in Scripture. The wicked will perish and disappear.
If we want to ignore Scripture in favour of philosophy, then at least choose the superior Greek view, that is Universalism, not the horrid doctrine of eternal torment and eternal cosmic dualism.
There aren't at least 200 verses that teach it.
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement "no rest day or night" makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. How about the STORY of Lazarus and the rich man. The fact that Jesus spoke of Lazarus by name, shows this was NOT a parable or metaphor. AND once again, if you think this story was a parable or metaphor...then for what? How would describing a man saying, "I am in torment in these flames..." indicate annihilation? How about the fact that Revelation 20:13 has "death and Hades (Hell) gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged." If they already died and went to Hades (hell) then how are they judged IF they were annihilated? Answer; they were NOT annihilated. Finally, with all the above explanations on a score of verses, why didn't God just say, "I will annihilate the wicked?
The Biblical annihilationist position has never made this argument, emotional people may have but this seems a straw man argument. The Biblical position for annihilations is so strong you can't get a debate anymore, even Al Moller was beaten to a pulp, (a smarter guy you won't find). But on the philosophical side one could say why would God punish forever? What reason would there be? Torturing forever is a bad word to the "eternal conscious torment" people they prefer punishment, but punishment to what end? The Bible says that "...the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life..." Rom 6:23. Both Biblically and philosophically this means that the only people who have eternal life are those that get the gift from God, (law of non contradiction). The Greek word for death here is 'thanatos' which means death just like you think it does. It doesn't mean a lower level, or quality of life as Brent has stated.
Donavan Dear annihilation is just foolishness, scripture strongly refutes such position, but as always people can just cherry-pick verses to support any idea they desire, like Hitler did about jews.
Matt 25:41 + Rev 19:20 + Rev 14:11
read those verses, and ask me again whether I cherry picked.....
Cody Clemmons
once you understand sin and who God is then you will change your mind about this.
Cody Clemmons I did probably hear + read all the arguments, those were justed cherry picked + an interpretation outside of scripture... just like you did***, people just do not understand what sin is and who God is, thats why it is not so easy to understand for sinful creatures.
***quote : "pre-Christian pagan idea from Egypt that was embraced by Greek philosophers."
Not according to Jesus, and the rest of the Bible. Jesus said that God will destroy the body and the soul in hell, not just the body.
i could be incorrect but i there are about 14 verses in the NT where jesus talks about hell.HE does not say anything about burnin forever and ever..HE does say people will be "burned up".."destroyed".."perish"..
in 2peter3:10 it says "both the earth &the works that are in the earth will be burned up "
john3:16 the word "perish"is used..
romans6:23 for the wages of sin is death but the gift of GOD is eternal life.
if you burn FOREVER in hell then you also have ETERNAL LIFE do you not... something is not adding up.. how can the saved and the damned have eternal life????
luke13:3 you will perish
john3:16 you should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE!!!!
how can someone be not there and there at the same time????
matt25:46 eternal punishment is SINGULAR NOT PLURAL..
the punishment is eternal but not the punishing..
matt10:28 this is very direct FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY... THAT IS VERY CLEAR..
matt7:13-14 the word DESTRUCTION..
ALL THIS FROM THE NT.
the NT must match up with the OT not the other way round...WHY????
b ecause does it not say....GOD NEVER CHANGES... SO what is said in the OT should be the same in the NT.
NOW FROM THE OT...ALM
:9-20 the wicked will be no more....FOR the wicked will PERISH.
for the enemies of the LORD like the splender of the meadow shall vanish.
MALACHI3:6 for i am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT..........THAT IS GOD SPEAKING..
HE cannot say something different in the NT now can HE????
MALACHI 4:1-3 the wicked will be stubble,shall burn them up ,leave them neither nor root or branch, they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet...
THIS IS GOD SAYING THIS NOT MAN....THESE ARE GODS WORDS
would this not be ANNIHILATION?????
psalm145:20 all the wicked will destroy.
psalm 21:9 the fire will devour them...
OBADIAH 1:15-16 they shall be as if they never were...
psalm 92:7 though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers florish
THEY WILL BE FOREVER DESTROYED..... THAT IS A POWERFULL STATEMENT...
psalm 10:20 but the wicked will perish and the enemines of the LORD shall be as the fat of the lambs, they shall consume into smoke they will consume away.. AGAIN THAT IS PRETTY POWERFULL STATEMENT..
EZEKIEL 28::18-19 THIS IS GOD SPEAKING.......i will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and i will bring thee the ashes upon the earth in sight of all them that behold thee...
NT... TIES IN WITH THE OT here
2PETER 2:6 SODOM AND GOMORRHA were set as example, they were destroyed and made into ASHES... is that place still burning today???
ALL THIS POINTS TO " COMPLETE ANNIHILATION "
please show me where i am WRONG?????
how can the damned also ETERNAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT IS HELL... IF THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ....... GOD LIED AND EVERYONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE...
A good starting place for understanding why STR believes in Hell and NOT annihilation, see the below:
www.str.org/w/hell-interrupted-part-1
www.str.org/w/hell-interrupted-part-2
www.str.org/w/hell-interrupted-part-3
This philosophical argument is weak, to say the least. If a baby is born into poverty, it doesn't mean that he or she will have to stay there. A baby is intrinsically valuable because he or she is made in God's image, has personality, and the freedom to make decision; even decisions to better his or her circumstances. In the traditional view of hell, that is not an option.
This is not what theological Anhiliationalism is. Instead, when a sinner dies in unrepentence, he is sent to Hell (Hades) to be stored, there will be torment for sinners there. Then, at the Ressurection, when all saints are given new, physical bodies, the sinners, the great Antichrist, the Dragon, and the False Prophet will be sent to the Lake of Fire for destruction. As a new Heaven and Earth will be formed, why would God have need to sinner and the saints in the new universe?
a child is innocent and bears the image of GOD in full glory therefore does not fall under judgement, where as a adult does fall under judgement for he bears the image he is likened unto in this case satan therefore has fallen from the glory . does not a golden cistern lose its value over time and whats inside it?
Very poor argument!
Very Very poor argument!
I'd be careful with presenting philosophical arguments against theological positions like this. The bible should be our final authority, man-made fallible human arguments like these succeed or fall on the basis of human reasoning, not Gods reasoning. Every position like this should be made on the basis of the word of God, not a philosophical argument.
My whole life I believed that souls lived forever. I believed that they either lived forever in heaven or lived forever in hell. The idea that souls live forever has been the traditional teaching of Christian churches for centuries. But is the idea that souls live forever based on scripture or based on tradition? Does the Bible say that souls live forever?
-Matthew 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”. Jesus plainly states that God can destroy the soul. The word Jesus uses for “destroy” is “apollumi”. “Apollumi” literally means “to bring to an end”. Jesus plainly states that God can bring an end to both the body and the soul.
-John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” In this, the most quoted verse in the Bible, Jesus sets up a dichotomy. People will either perish or have eternal life. The word that Jesus uses for “perish”, is the exact same word (apollumi) that He uses in Matthew 10:28. In John 3:16, Jesus is warning that unbelievers will not live forever but rather will come “to an end”.
-Notice that the dichotomy set up in John 3:16 isn’t: “live forever in hell” or “live forever in heaven”. The dichotomy is “perish” or “eternal life”. The soul does not automatically live forever. It only lives forever if we believe in Jesus. If we don’t believe in Jesus, then our soul perishes (brought to an end) according to John 3:16. Jesus’ listeners knew what “apollumi” meant and it does not mean forever suffering.
-Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few”. Again, Jesus sets up the dichotomy. Our fate is either “destruction” or “life”. Again, Jesus uses the word “apollumi” for destruction. The dichotomy isn’t “life in hell” or “life in heaven”. It’s either “destruction” or “life”.
--The word “apollumi” (to bring to an end) is used to describe the fate of unbelievers in: II Thessalonians 1:9 , Luke 20:16, Philippians 3:19, Galatians 6:8, II Thes 2:10, II Peter 3:9, Philippians 1:28, Hebrews 10:39 and other spots. The fate of unbelievers is always described as destruction not “living in hell”.
-Psalm 92:7 “ . . . all evil doers are doomed to destruction forever; but you O Lord are on high forever”. The Hebrew word for “destruction” in this verse is “shamad”. “Shamad” literally means “to be exterminated”. This passage says evil doers are exterminated forever, not living forever. Again, living forever is a gift from God.
-Psalm 37:28 “For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His godly ones; they are preserved forever; but the descendants of the wicked will be cut off”. The expression “cut off” is the same word “shamad” meaning “to be exterminated”. Also, notice the dichotomy, godly ones will be preserved forever, wicked will be exterminated.
-Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked will perish; and the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, they vanish-like smoke they vanish away”. The Hebrew word used here for “perish is “abad”. Other meanings of “abad” include: “obliterate”; “utterly destroyed” and “annihilated”. The Hebrew word for “vanish” is “kalah”. Other meanings of “kalah” include: “to be complete”; “at an end”; “finished”. When the writer of Psalm 37 describes the fate of godly people the word “forever” is used. When describing the fate of the wicked people, the word “extermination” is used. Psalm 37 does not state or imply that the wicked live forever. Quite the opposite, they are exterminated. The dichotomy is: believers=life vs. non-believers=extermination. (Psalm 1:6 also uses the word “abad”).
After reasing Fudge's and Stott's work, I realize that the Bible is clear on annihilationism being true.
Where can I find their work?
There is no inherent worth and dignity to be found in eternal conscious torment. Lol
another point of where i think you are incorrect/wrong is as of right now ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL, WE THE SAVED dont put on immortality until the the judgement is over.. and only the saved get to put on immortality ... show me in the bible where the lost or the people who reject/ do not accept jesus as their savior get to put on immortality... they dont, so if they dont get to put on immortality then at some point they will be no more, they are annihilated and no longer exist... explain all the passages in the OT....even the ones where GOD is speaking..... are you going to say GOD did not say what HE said in the OT or that GOD IS ....READY " WRONG " and YOU ARE RIGHT/CORRECT.... YOU KNOW MORE THAN GOD??????? you cant...
You think that God will kill them in the end. No... Their sin will.
I love stand to reason.
I'm sorry this argument does not work at all and I hold to traditional eternal punishment doctrine.
You mean Hell? STR does, as well.
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement "no rest day or night" makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. How about the STORY of Lazarus and the rich man. The fact that Jesus spoke of Lazarus by name, shows this was NOT a parable or metaphor. AND once again, if you think this story was a parable or metaphor...then for what? How would describing a man saying, "I am in torment in these flames..." indicate annihilation? How about the fact that Revelation 20:13 has "death and Hades (Hell) gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged." If they already died and went to Hades (hell) then how are they judged IF they were annihilated? Answer; they were NOT annihilated. Finally, with all the above explanations on a score of verses, why didn't God just say, "I will annihilate the wicked?