Is This The Most Comfortable Way To Use The Moonlander Split Keyboard?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- The thing with split keyboards is it’s not always obvious what the most comfortable way to actually set them up is. The second part of this video also looks at an issue I discovered with custom keyboards that might be increasing fatigue so be sure to watch to the end!
Watch next:
I Started Wearing My Keyboard! • “I Started Wearing My ...
Buy the iPad bean bag in the UK here: amzn.to/2O5aXU6
And the closest I can find for the US here: amzn.to/30firqb
In this video I look at how I’ve been using my Moonlander recently as I think it might be the most comfortable way of using a split keyboard I’ve found yet.
What I’ve found is that by using a bean bag as a rest you can create the perfect angle with your split keyboard using quite an aggressive tent position. This seems to me to be a very neutral position for your forearm angle and it’s surprising how little we see of people using this kind of tenting angle.
It also allows for lots of adjustment in the rotation and front-to-back angle as well as the tenting itself.
Of course the most significant part of tenting the Moonlander like this is that you can now set the thumb clusters exactly how you like, irrespective of the tent angle.
I also explore the changes I’ve made to my 36 key layout which avoid the need to hold down the layer keys so much. This also has big impacts on the ergonomics of using keyboards. See the first version of my 36 key layout here: • My CRAZY 36 Key 5x3 Mo...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using these links to buy items helps support this channel at no extra cost to you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
🎬 My UA-cam camera gear:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
📷 Camera:
Amazon UK: amzn.to/3fFHMQO
Amazon US: amzn.to/2VasWIQ
📸 Lenses:
Amazon UK: amzn.to/36cawNP amzn.to/36eVZ3W
Amazon US: amzn.to/3q8QY4Y
🎤 Mic:
Amazon UK: amzn.to/36cVgjM
Amazon US: amzn.to/36bAyAU
🎧 Audio interface:
Amazon UK: amzn.to/3mfkAeN
💡Studio light:
Amazon UK: amzn.to/3fO9Ql5
Amazon US: amzn.to/37dd7qd
🎶The music in my videos:
artlist.io/Ben...
If you enjoyed this video don't forget to hit the Like button! It really helps others see the video. Thanks!🙏
Great video!, I know you get lot of suggestions for videos, I would love to see your take on making custom ortholinear keyboard :) I love the way you present a product :)
@@giri404 yes
Found your channel a few days ago and it's awesome! I used a Kinesis Advantage as my daily driver at work since about 10 years ago. Got away from sitting long stretches in front of a keyboard for a few years, but got an Ergodox EZ along with a new workstation last year. I found I wound up preferring a more traditional Logitech MX simply because it is so thin it let my hands rest more comfortably on the desk.
Now after seeing your use of keyboards like the GergoPlex with a beanie I'm inspired to try a setup like this. Something that I'd like to try is arranging something like this along with arm/wrist rests in such a way that it almost fully allows your arms to relax aside from your finger action.
There's a lot of stress involved in holding your arms out in front of you for long stretches in the way that you would with hovering over a keyboard. That effect can't really be fixed by anything other than resting both elbows and wrists.
Your setup uses so few keys it allows hitting all keys comfortably even if someone were holding your wrists in place. It is perfect for adding in an arrangement where your arms can fully relax.
@@australai So funny you should mention this, I’m outlining a video at the moment that I think you will find very interesting! Stay tuned.
I'm just waiting for this setup to descend further and further into madness.
I don't think it can go much further!
@@BenVallack really enjoying the content.
@@BenVallack On the sides of a chairs armrests!? Or while standing, strapped to your legs? These are serious ideas that I've considered in the past.
@@techtiger2558 Yeah those are all good points actually!
@@BenVallack Zero-G / dentist / recliner style chair with leg & arm support (where you can lay almost flat) + with Immersed VR on Quest 2 streaming a laptop screen + Moonlander on arm rests. This is the setup I'm going to try in the following months (I'm ordering Moonlander and I already have a "gaming" chair which can lay flat).
Funny thing is that I have a workspace very similar to yours. It's a seating/standing desk with "saddle" chair (instead of wobbly chair but the result is quite similar) and an IKEA mattress where I can lay down (just like you when you're using beanbag with a tablet). The difference is, on my desk I use only 14-inch laptop display on a laptop arm, and on the mattress / sofa I use Immersed VR on Quest 2 streaming my laptop screen(s). Since Quest panels have 2 meters focus distance (AFAIK) it feels like a giant screen floating in 2 meters in front of you while you're seating in a virtual coworking café.
Haven't you tried working in current gen VR?
Brilliant idea! I wonder if you can use two beanbags and spread them to maintain the natural position for your shoulders
It's actually wider than it looks. Because you have the distance between the board and your hands directly increasing the space between your arms. Normally your hands are above the board so the width of the board is the width of your arms, but here your hands are now further out from the location of the board. Here each arm is about 2 inches further in compared to shoulder width so definitely still very wide.
Hmmm... I've been hearing good things about the Moonlander, but the thumb cluster being awkward when the keyboard is tented sounds like a real problem. Do you prefer the Moonlander or the Ergodox for coding? What is your favorite keyboard for coding?
Thanks for your reviews, I appreciate your understated style.
Can you do a breakdown of your iPad coding workflow? What terminal emulator, text editor, etc that you use :) Any major drawbacks for someone who might SSH to a remote environment anyway? Any major limitations?
Yeah definitely will get around to this at some point!
Hi Ben. Great video. I'm curious -- are you pretty effective with mouse mode? Do you feel like you could get rid of your mouse entirely?
Very nice idea, but do you think it'll be better to use something solid with the right geometry ? Or do you actually like typing on a soft surface like this ? It seems the keyboard is moving around quite a bit as you type.
Yeah it was suprising how much it wobbled in the footage. It doesn't feel that bad in real life. I wonder if on my day to day it settles into more of a solid position compared to just having adjusted it in the video. Filling the bag with sand instead of the polystyrene beads might firm it up more though.
I think the issue is what is the right geometry. At least with this I can keep tweaking it as the day goes on.
Good point, just like adjustable standing desk, maybe the best is not to be stuck in a single position. I wonder if we'll one day see some kind of ergonomic keyboard exploiting this idea.
Yeah exactly, no harm in the ability to adjust here and there through the day.
@@BenVallack If you like this setup a lot you could build a 3d printed holder to reduce bounce
Hove you considered 3D printing a mount that achieves this? Would be pretty low cost to make and will require less adjustments to get in the right position. Also since it's not soft like a beanbag the position won't change over time
You could have a separate mount for each keyboard too, so you can have them split at shoulder width rather than having them close together like on the beanbag
I'm not sure I would ever get it right! See my replies about the width on a few other comments here too, it's wider than it looks.
Hi Ben, I don't have the bean bag and I'm thinking of getting one. Do you recommend this one or is there something even better that you discovered since this video or that someone has suggested?
Still haven’t found anything better in terms of beanbags! I think tripod mounts are probably better if you can get a setup organised though.
first getting rid of a ton of keys on the moonlander and now this
he has officially lost it
jokes aside, keep up the creative workflow stuff, it's great so see other people interested in revolutionising keyboards and getting rid of all the bad, old habits
i foresee a dactyl in this mans future
This workflow content is great, looking forward to the next video. I'm not sure I'm ready to take half the keys off my moonlander though 😋.
Thanks Ben
Love the out of the box thinking.
Really innovative.
Good inspiration for my next setup.
Just tried this on my dactyl manuform mini with a towel and wow, it is so comfortable. Not only for my hands but for my posture as well. Gotta figure out a more permanent solution that won't wobble and slide as much though.
Why dont you open your company and make something simlar ;D
duuuude, this is... something, don't know what to say.
🤣
I'd love something like this for my desk, any ideas of a more 'permanent' solution? Great content as always!
Maybe you could 3D print something like a base that would lock them in place.
You can generate case for dactyl like that
ua-cam.com/video/rY2D4G4krRQ/v-deo.html
Cool video, I am considering on buying this keyboard
I’m definitely going to do this.
Hey Ben! Love your content! I'm sure you have a lot of video ideas already but is there a chance that one of those ideas is a video on how to clean your Moonlander? Cheers! :)
Thanks!! Yeah it is on my roadmap actually! Just waiting for it to get dirty enough to show a before and after heh!
The most informative and practical video I have ever seen regarding health concerns for those who stay long hours on keyboards. Thanks a lot.
Oh my god I love all the things you do with that little beanbag thing
Another good video Ben. It reminded me of some older keyboard designs. The challenge with the steep vertical layout is that you really need a hand rest like the safetype keyboard. They worked this out after numerous prototypes and it makes sense. Vertical or close to it, feels good at first but can get tiring holding the hands up for long periods of time. I think the most comfortable design was the alphagrip if you are familiar. The fingers wrap around the back as your hands naturally lie similar to a game controller. Shame it wasn't pursued.
Thanks! Very interesting info thanks. I'm not familiar with those so will check them out.
I am enjoying seeing your keyboard metamorphosis. From planck to moonlander to moonlander with les keys and now with moonlander pyramid edition. I predict you will end up making your own split with 36 keys with a shape tailored to your hands size.
🔮✨
I'm thinking about getting a moonlander but I'm concerned by two things. How long does it take to be accustomed to an ortholinear ? The tenting thing seems to force having the arms above the table. I'm afraid that instead of dispatching the weight all along the arm, it will put pressure on the wrist and the elbow
Keeping the arms and wrists off the table in my mind is a good thing. I have experienced tingling whenever I rest my wrists on a table or wrist rest. Switching to orthoniear was really easy. I'd say a few days to a week before you're happy with that, depending on how much typing you do. Wait until you want to change layout for the real headache heh!
@@BenVallack What did you pick workman over colemak ?
I've actually switched to Colemak dhm now. The same finger bigrams felt too tedious with workman as I got faster with it.
Congratulations on inventing the Coding Accordion!
haha!
Awesome video as always. Really interesting solution. Really hoping ZSA makes a 3x5 version of the moonlander!
Thanks! Yeah I'd love to see that too. A Corne without the outer columns is as close as I can see that's available I think. Gergoplex too but no rgb lighting.
@@BenVallack Corne looks really awesome but did you find any pre-built ones? I'm thinking of getting the Gergoplex but the heavy is out of stock and I hear the non-heavy one wobbles a lot if you don't attach it to something.
@@rafaeldietrich8050 I'm chatting to someone who is starting a website that offers built Cornes. Stay tuned for details. I have also ordered a built Gergoplex. Will cover it all in detail in future videos. I have a felling the Gergoplex on the beanbag might be pretty awesome!
@@BenVallack Ohhh yeahhh. 3x5 corne is where its at :)
I really like this idea. Vertical keyboards seem much more ergonomically. Two questions:
Do you think it would be more comfortable if the two boards were spaced further apart?
And did you rest your arms on anything?
It's actually wider than it looks. Because you have the distance between the board and your hands directly increasing the space between your arms. Normally your hands are above the board so the width of the board is the width of your arms, but here your hands are now further out from the location of the board. Here each arm is about 2 inches further in compared to shoulder width so definitely still very wide. One of the reasons I'm so keen on avoiding any keys more than one key away from the home keys is because I don't use any kind of rest. I've always ended getting tingling after using rests. Rests do help with home orientation so I've tried to offset that by using layouts that make it easier to maintain the home possition.
@@BenVallack I see, great explanation. Thanks for the reply!
For me is better to use the 8 home keys to switch layers than the thumb buttons, holding home keys don’t cause as much fatigue as holding thumb buttons
I've tried this but can't get it set up in a way that avoids them accidentally doing the wrong thing when using them at high speed. I will do some more testing but I think there are some fundamental limitations with the timing and order of events. It's a great idea though so it's great if it's working for you.
@@BenVallack It does take some getting used to and experimenting with different settings for "tapping term", "ignore mod tap" and "permissive hold". I actually think your approach of not resting the hands and hovering instead should be very well suited for this, as this is also when I feel most fluent on this setting. Not having to move a finger to the side when using shift for uppercase letters was a gamechanger for me. Maybe the settings in my layout can help you: configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/bdZ6A/latest/0
My boy thinking outside the box
This is a big problem for people that are getting a 'forearm' problem, because of the constant pinching of muscle though pronation... I'll likely take over your setup!
Ben, you are absolutely crazy and I love it :-) BTW what switches do you use? Have you ever experimented with this aspect of your keyboard?
Heh thanks. Yeah I have tried a few now. My preference is linear and light, I'm using Kailh Silver on the Moonlander but I'm thinking they are heavier than needed now. Very excited to try my Gergoplex with 12g springs when that arrives!
@@BenVallack 12g?? Thats insanely i can type with mouth, like blowing a candle
@@9mmbetamax316 Yeah it’s pretty amazing: ua-cam.com/video/dWfQeuXDK_o/v-deo.html
Very cool solution for a vertical tent stand! I'm a bit surprised the bean bag is sturdy enough to keep the keyboard in the same position all the time. Or do you find yourself needing to readjust the tilt and positioning occasionally?
It's interesting actually some of the other ones we have are a thinner fabric than the one in the video and they are slightly more prone to needing readjustment. I've done about a week of full day work on it though and doesn't cause enough of an issue to worry about.
Thanks so much for this! I picked up the Moonlander about a week ago, and have found my hands are too small to use the tenting feature as designed. I'll be binging the rest of these videos today.
Do you think the ergodox EZ would be able to be used comfortably with this iPad bean bag? Just got an ergodox and would like to be able to tilt the keyboard more
I ordered a Moonlander with the Silver switch recently! Did you lube your switches? 😊
Heres a hack. Use a deflated soccer ball if you cant afford the bean bag
I think the downside of the beanbag is the 'give'.
It looks like it takes too much force out of the presses.
You are absolutely mad and that's why I like watching this channel
Agreed! This YT channel is a very peculiar rabbit hole, but in the best possible way.
Very very interesting! I think this might also solve the issue for some where due to chair armrests or whatever other reasons the table is just too high. With this you could place or on your lap! Brilliant! I'd also be interested in a way to control this more like a hinge (or perhaps with an actual hinge). But retain the cushion on the bottom allowing for relaxed, but also reliably controlled usage.
It is so interesting to learn how the natural inclination of the fingers can facilitate the communication process. I learned on a flat board but the Moonlander makes intuitive sense.
Infinitely adjustable beanbag for tenting is brilliant!
I started with the goldtouch tinting keyboards, which aren’t great but the one feature they have is they tent up to about 30°, which hardly any of the other tenting keyboards go anywhere near that.
So this I’ve been trying to build little add-on stands to go under the corners of other keyboards. The idea of just sticking a flexible beanbag under there is very clever indeed!
I just emailed the manufacturer with a few questions and mentioned your videos as really helpful 🤩
Was the mouse layer issue with your Planck or the Moonlander? I thought pressing the Lower and Raise keys at the same time was only available on the Planck, would love to be able to do that on the Moonlander too. Loving the videos, the quality is great and really like your approach of being inventive and trying new things, keep it up!
Thanks so much. You can set up the double hold thing on the Moonlander too, just a case of mapping the other layer key to the third layer in both the second layers if you see what I mean! I had the thumb muscle pain after using my mouse mode like that on the Moonlander.
@@BenVallack Aha! Thanks Ben, much appreciated, I knew it must be something simple I was missing. I got my Moonlander a few weeks ago and have been getting weird pains too, I think everytime I try a different layout a new muscles aches!
Have you let some of the beans out of your bag I've got one of these and it seems incredibly full and it's kind of finicky to get the keyboards to sit in any sort of stable position.
Nope, but there does seem to be quite a lot of variation between the three that I have, also depending on the fabric they use too.
Great content, I definitely feel inspired!
I hope after getting an ergonomic keyboard my productivity will go up because browsing all these keyboard reviews is killing my productivity.
Haha!
arms that attach to a standing desk would be great for this
Ok, hear me out.
There's this instrument called accordion...
Ha!
Aren't you giving up the main benefit of split keyboards - being able to have your hands further apart and less stress on your shoulders?
Have you tried 2 bean bags further apart? Probably would need something more sturdy than bean bags then, I figure.
It's actually wider than it looks. Because you have the distance between the board and your hands directly increasing the space between your arms. Normally your hands are above the board so the width of the board is the width of your arms, but here your hands are now further out from the location of the board. Having them actually at shoulder width is probably a bit extreme for long term, quite good for a stretch and to mix it up though! Here each arm is about 2 inches further in compared to shoulder width so definitely still very wide.
Yes palms facing each other is a more natural position but its a trade off, the palms are floating and not resting on a wrist pad or table surface so now your shoulders and fore arms are engaged in ways they were not before. Bad trade.
I actually think hovering is better to avoid wrist problems so I’m not worried by that. Going back to flat on the table now feels really uncomfortable.
Oh wow, this is a bit farther than I would imagine this keyboard would go XD
I use a regular planck, but this does appeal to me.
I may switch over soon.
one of the OG here !!! helooo
Has anyone tried to put a trackpad in the front? Keyboard on the side and mouse movements in the middle!
Yeah I did that before this, works pretty well.
hi Ben, Iam looking for a medium size ortholinear keyboard, any suggestions? (planck is too small for me :D )
Are you looking for a split or not? Non-split there is the preonic which is a plank with a num row and there is the xd75 which is a preonic with a numpad, ive seen a lot of xd75 with the numpad in the middle of the board to kind of sperate the two halves of the letter also
If you want out of the box functionality go for the Moonlander. You can reduce the layout as needed. If you are happy building yourself there are other options though!
@@BenVallack Thanks for the reply :) I have never used an ortholinear keyboard before, so kinda skeptical to spend that much money when i am not sure i will like it. The main reason for me interested is because i watched your videos and I feel like i can type much faster on ortholinear.
how was your experience with switching to this new layout?
P.S. I like your reviews in the past videos on customizing these keyboard layouts for maximum functionality (good work ;) )
@@mikemoflo7878 Thanks for the suggestion man! i will check it out ( i am looking for non split )
do you use any of those keyboards you mentioned?
@j3ll1s man!! you are living my dream :D . that's exactly the same setup i was going for, to have same layout keyboards at home and work.
I type relatively fast, and i found ortholinear keyboards from this channel, and since then i always wanted one but not sure if i will like it and the price is a bit much to jump without trying them. I will bite the bullet and order moonlander, lets see how it goes.
Does anyone here built a custom ortholinear?
I’d love to see your programming environment! Guessing you use vim? :D
Yeah, will do a video on that soon cheers!
@@BenVallack That would be interesting because I am personally a bit frustrated using vim after switching my layout to colmak-dh
@@BenVallack joke. But try emacs :) you can start from doom emacs.
Unfortunately I cannot try this with the planck, but your other video got me down to 32, well 33 if you count the spacebar I did not remove yet but don't use. I had problems with my thumbs searching for the three keys in the cluster and was able to consolidate to one for each hand space/lower and enter/raise.
I just moved to mechanical boards and have been experiencing wrist and arm strain ever since. My issue is that my upper arms are so long that my elbow sits on my hip bone when I sit down straight up. At some point I will have to move to a split board to keep my hands from falling of I guess. At least I can re-use the switches of the board I now have (Epomaker GK68X).
In your last point, it would be great if they brought out a Mac laptop without a keyboard and touchpad, just a screen with OS X on it that is portable. For me an iPad would be too limiting unless I could do all my programming projects in just a terminal and vim (and have a computer somewhere else where I could SSH in)
Was wondering, as someone who is working a lot with the Adobe apps, mostly InDesign, I find that there are often mouse + keyboard combinations needed. I am trying to make this work with the Moonlander plus a trackball now - the configurable keyboard shortcuts in CC are very much dependent on having access to both the modifier keys and the _numerical_ keyboard at the same time. It would be glorious if there was a mouse replacement that could fit between the Moonlander halves, or perhaps in front, because although I am typing a lot (both writing and programming), I also need to be able to reach the mouse quickly. The best combo so far has been the contour rollermouse - but that wouldn’t work at all with this.
Having a trackpad or trackball on the side doesn’t work at all for me.
Any ideas.
I'm trying to decide between olkb preonic and moonlander. I'd say moonlander is hard to carry but I spend too many hours each day on the keyboard and I've read olkb keyboards are too small and not good for the wrists. Could you give me your opinion? which one do you recommend as my first ortho keyboard?
Thanks!
Moonlander is open source, I'm not certain about that other board, but open source tech is always a benefit. Then there's the fact that the moonlander comes in an easy carry case, you just untent, fold the armrests, then place each half in the bag, and bundle both cords into the center where after closing it and strapping it. They'll (the cords will) be held by friction. Very clever and durable design.
I think the main consideration is the support and configuration software with the Moonlander. It all works very smoothly. I think the process with the preonic is going to be a bit more hands on.
You just created a whole new product with only a small bean bag.... Impressive.
Ha yeah i'm really suprised how well it works!
you should definitely check out the ergobox, it's a leverless arcade stick with quite a similar design. may find some things to learn from it and improve future iterations
Interesting form factor. Should the keyboards not be split a little further apart? Also palm rests might be an idea.
I would be super interested if you could make a video on the kinesis advantage 2. It's praised for its ergonomics, but I wonder if its really that much better compared to for example the moonlander
thank you so much, really if not you I would know the best layout with 36 keys. It is so amazing.
It looks funny but is very well thought. Makes perfect sense.
Yes.
Very creative idea! Really great videos! I think I might have to get my CNC machine out and make a wooden holder like this for my moonlander
Hi Ben, I'm setting up a Moonlander at the moment and, although I understand the logic now, at first, using the PC configured to use a UK keyboard layout while programming the actual keyboard with US keycodes was confusing. Do you think it worth a video highlighting the process of programming a layout for a non-US keyboard device? Covering things like Shift-3, Punctuation-# and Non-US-# etc.? I'm not sure if the same issue exists on the Mac though... Love the channel content BTW. :-)
Ha yep I did have all those issues! Good idea, will add to my list!
I have been watching several videos on UA-cam about cold weather camping. So when I saw this, it was unexpected, but quite welcome.
Ha!!
Hey Ben - iirc it was in one of your videos that I first encountered the idea that a split keyboard is better for your shoulder rotation, which I've found to be exactly correct since I've had my moonlander. I would have expected that bringing the halves together would negate that benefit. What do you think? And does the beanbag have enough friction that you could set two up in order to separate the halves?
It's actually wider than it looks. Because you have the distance between the board and your hands directly increasing the space between your arms. Normally your hands are above the board so the width of the board is the width of your arms, but here your hands are now further out from the location of the board. Having them actually at shoulder width is probably a bit extreme for long term, quite good for a stretch and to mix it up though! Here each arm is about 2 inches further in compared to shoulder width so definitely still very wide.
Great work! Why not putting both halves further away from each other with two bean bags? Too unstable or uncomfortable?
It's an option but I think that would put them even wider than shoulder width. On one bag my wrists end up about 2 inches in from shoulder width each side so it's still pretty wide.
So you are not resting your elbows on the table?
Nope, hovering completely.
@@BenVallack woo interesting! I bought the moonlander a year and a half ago and I'm checking for new ways
how about moving all the rows up one
Have you considered making a video about workman and your experience switching?
Yep, coming soon. Cheers!
Seems exhausting having to hold your arms up for hours on end, need one of those ergo-armrests probably? Anyways, for future experiments: I saw one that used split keyboards while standing up & he had the splits on both sides of his hips/thighs, so the arms where just resting to his sides like they do when we are just standing up, so the splits where kinda like pistol holsters on either side, would maybe be fun to try out
UA-cam suggested that to me too! Very interesting indeed. I actually got myself used to hover typing a while ago so that element doesn't seem much worse for me with this set up.
do you have a link to this video? seems interesting
ua-cam.com/video/iOupyi-lQZM/v-deo.html I think I linked to the original in the description on that one!
it's just a joke
Nope. This was a joke though: ua-cam.com/video/XBV0piKtNjI/v-deo.html
@@BenVallack :D
Great video and excited for the next! Have you thought about decorative and/or ultra low profile keycaps for the unused switches? Would be nice if there were stand-in switches that slot just like regular switches but are entirely clear to show off the lighting, but not sure those exist...
Thanks! Yeah some kind of blanks would be great. It seems they exist in the form of needing to go onto an existing switch but I'd love to see something that just fits into these holes directly.
@@BenVallack I used these key blockers after removing my unused keys, you might find them helpful!
pimpmykeyboard.com/switch-blocker-pack-of-10/
@fishzard they sit on top of the switches right? They must still protrude a fair way on the surface mount Moonlander?
3D printer would probably work here if you can’t find one pre-made. Although maybe not worth it if you don’t have one
Can you do a video about the learning curve / experience?
Switching to this kind of tent was actually really easy. Going to a split in the first place felt stranger I think.
that is the jankiest clown 🤡 way to use a keyboard ive ever seen... i hope this is satire... 😂
Have you tried it?