Fromsoft abandoned what many fans loved most
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Talking about a feature that everyone loved in Dark Souls 1 and Demon's Souls that for some reason Fromsoft abandoned. I miss it, it was a very important part of why I loved Dark Souls so much. It felt real, concrete.
This is the Nakeyjakey vid I mentioned:
• FromSoftware's Game De...
0:00 Bring it back Miyazaki
Dark Souls is a dark fantasy action role-playing game series developed by FromSoftware and published by Bandai Namco Entertainment. Created by Hidetaka Miyazaki, the series began with the release of Dark Souls and has seen two sequels, Dark Souls II and Dark Souls III.
I was expecting the video to be about cutting the tails off of bosses and getting unique weapons. I really miss that feature.
true, ds1 went hard af on tail cut weapons and then it just was never really brought over to newer games. I know ER has an insanely bigger map and scale to the world, but not having many tail cuts If at all was a big let down to me since its basically a big mix of all the cool aspects soulsborne has brought over the years.
I honestly though DS3 would have brought them back with Miyazaki involved then had hopes dashed with Elden Ring too 😓
Monster Hunter is like.....tail cut: the series
Gravelord covent too... 😢
everyone who went through the struggle of cutting seath's tail is happy that feature is gone
Suggestion; Another feature you should make a video about; *Encounter design*. Later souls games have somewhat become boss rushes, but Dark Souls gave us memorable encounters. Some examples of what I'm talking about;
The first boss after the tutorial, the Taurus Demon, would be a simple fight in a typical boss arena, but you encounter him on a battlement which he can knock you off of, and if you weren't paying attention there are crossbowmen behind you complicating things. However, on subsequent attempts you likely will kill the crossbowmen and use the tower to perform a plunging attack. This is what I mean by an "Encounter". There are many elements which are working against you, the boss, the terrain, and support units. Killing the crossbowmen is an easy first step in the encounter, but it doesn't take away from the fact that you had to solve that part of the encounter.
One of the most memorable encounters are the archers in Anor Londo. Two archers, whose arrows will knock you off the precarious ledge you're forced to traverse, are stationed supporting one another. You can take cover half way up, but this builds suspense as the oppressive Twang...Crash of the great arrows, and likely the memory many failed prior attempts, work to unnerve or frustrate you.
The Capra Demon is an encounter, not just a boss fight. You encounter him in a claustrophobic alley, no room to maneuver, and to make matters worse there are two of the hated and feared dark souls dogs supporting him. The Capra Demon himself is something of a joke, but in that tight alleyway with his pets he puts fear in the heart of every no-hit challenge runner.
The game is replete with these encounters. Blow dart assholes in upper blight town, centipede demon on the lake of lava (with living appendages), firebomb throwers raining death on the narrow bridge to a room full of hollow soldiers... These are not necessarily enjoyable encounters in the moment (maybe even hated), but they are some of the most rewarding content. They feel like moments where the enemies really want to win, and resort to underhanded tactics to do so.
If I were a youtuber I'd make the video myself, but I'm not and have no strong desire to be.
Great comment homie, the encounter design thing was definitely huge in Demon's Souls too. I think a lot of it was as a result of them trying to make the game immersive. You're meant to feel like the adventurer that you're playing as so when you encounter some scenario you take a minute to think about your approach. Dying being such a pain in the ass makes it so that you want to die just as little as your character does, it makes you consider what's going on much more. I know I said something similar in the video, but it all interconnects to be such a great experience. Even the bed of chaos, which is arguably the worst boss fight in all the games, has you stop for a minute like 'right wtf do I do here'. Additionally, a lot of these encounters you see coming well in advance giving you time to think. It all rewards you for just slowing down a bit and going a bit steadier. Keeping your eyes peeled. They want your head in the game as much as possible, but if every encounter is the same you won't need to think about them any more. If you haven't played Demon's Souls you should play it, I've got a video about the remake somewhere. Both the remake and the original are great.
Ds2 does exactly that all the way through but only gets a "gank spam" reputation instead of praise :(
@@Soundwave1900 You could be right, it's been too long for me to really say. But keep in mind there's two versions of DS2. The Scholar of the First Sin edition changed enemy placements so it's possible that when you hear people complain, it's because they've experienced something different.
@@haku_haku_haku Yeah, perhaps. I myself like the og ds2 more even though the scholar reduced the amount of ganks and fixed a lot of mechanics that weren't working such as torch scaring spiders away.
I don’t mind Elden Ring’s fast travel, because there’s so many places where you have to either leave or continue on going through it, because of the teleport being disabled for fights, caves / tombs, and bosses.
And when you get teleported to Volcano Manor you have no option to leave but to at least advance to the next site of grace
I think the counter to this is that they maximized on what is ACTUALLY the fun part of the game. After I've slogged through a level, gotten to a boss, and then inevitably died to it, running back through the level after that is not very fun. If the boss is particularly difficult, I'm literally just sprinting past every enemy on subsequent deaths to make sure I don't spend any healing flasks/estus. So if the content is just getting skipped as a natural byproduct of extremely difficult boss design, then there's not really any reason to force the player back through it.
Dark Souls 1, for everything I love about that game, was honestly atrocious in this aspect. The boss run back to Seathe??? Kill me now. Dark Souls 3 was an improvement with bonfire placement and if you got through a level there would be shortcuts that get you closer to the boss arena, but there was still a run.
Elden Ring would honestly be horrible without fast travel. Think about how many times people died to Malenia or Radahn. Some people get vigor checked by those bosses hundreds of times very quickly each time. If you were to add a lengthy boss run to that equation, no one would ever bother to finish the content.
Stakes of Marika with the bonfire placements of Bloodborne and interconnectivity of DS1 is the dream.
@@thefrogwasnthurt2299 I think I agree
Spoiled kid
@@thefebo8987 Lol if it's spoiled to want a game to be more fun, then yeah I'm hella spoiled. I've played and beaten every FromSoft Soulsborne except DS2 and Sekiro and loved them all. I don't think the fact that they've added quality of life improvements to the game as time has gone on lessens their significance. It just shows that they've grown as developers.
@@mynameisgryphon1007 I have more fun without fast travel and fewer checkpoints.
I gotta be honest. It's nowhere near as incredible as dark souls 1, but some of the ways dark souls 3 levels loop back on themselves still caught me off guard and impressed me. Still a shadow of what once was though.
The way levels connect to eachother in Dark Souls 3 is pretty boring, but the levels themselves are great.
@lonelyshpee7873 Agreed, but IMO that is true for all of the soulsborne games except DS1. It is the only one that has interconnectivity between levels that is done very well.
In terms of individual levels I would say that many in the later games surpass ds1. Honestly I think even Raya Lucaria and Volcano manor do, but more obvious ones would be senpou temple/fountainhead palace and central yharnam.
Still
@@theholypopechodeii4367 Elden Ring's DLC did a good job with level interconnectivity and verticality, but it's still not quite the same. Hopefully they'll try out DS1 world design again with their next game.
most of DS3 connectivity is just having a lift at a check point that takes you back….. it’s not really some incredible design.
DS3 was hampered almost immediately by warping to High Walls of.Lothric from Firelink. I like being able to warp to graces/ Bonfires you find, but forcing that High Walls warp pulled me out of the immersion. We should had to walk there. From what I recall it was a tech limitation, but they could have hidden some load screen.
Interesting spin with this;
Dark Souls 3 was going have you creating your own bonfires manually.... but it got cut.
Would of loved to see how this would of changed the vibe of fast travel. Considering based upon your placement, you'll have to backtrack still since there's less global bonfires overall.
Dragon's Dogma has this, creating fast travel points & even requiring a consumable item to travel to these points. And it really does force you to be way more strategic with fast travel.
ds3 had alot of the world built and animations down, it was the ideas that they wanted to implement that would've been a bitch to do that got cut. Like wolnir being in the profaned capital makes sense, but it was EXTREMELY early in development that they would've done that, they would've have to do that from the very start.
Also ds3 is so incredibly linear that its confusing to me why they did that.
I hated not being able to fast travel in Ds1. It made so many trips feel unecesarily long and backtracky. What is the benefit of walking the same path fifty times?
Tbh a lot of the individual levels in later games did have the interconnectedness seen in DS1, but only on an individual scale. Locations like Cathedral of the Deep, Grand Archives, and the Ringed City had interconnectedness, but only within those levels. TBH I think DS1 deserves a remake, so that fromsoft can patch up the second half of the game and add some interconnectedness.
I was tearing my hairs out because ds1 couldn't give me a better way out of Blighttown to upgrade my shitty weapons and armour other than running a marathon through tho whole game at that point. Fast travel is a blessing for me and should be some kind of on/off feature for some games.
Another cool feature that only demon souls and dark souls 1 had was how you had to actually craft boss weapons instead of just paying money for them
Ds3 couldve used this with how gung-ho upgrade items are late game
You mean the convoluted and frustrating upgrading? The thing that literally every other game removed?
@@blizzardgaming7070yeah that’s the main reason I only ever made smoughs hammer (so fucking worth it though)
I hate that feature I am so glad they got rid of it.
Absolute dogshit game mechanic.
You mean how you'd pay money to upgrade a different weapon and then convert it over to the boss weapon? Yeah, miss me with that shit. That plus the 13 diff types of titanite, I'm glad stopped at DS1.
This guy: FromSoft forgot about what made these games great, and that’s the interconnectivity
Bloodborne: _exists_
I am glad they didn't implement that again and again...design features only work if they surprise us instead of expecting them. Those rinse and repeat practices only destroy the creative aspects of games.
ER for example had incredible environmental story telling like no other FS game before.
I think you're way over simplifying Dark Souls 2's world design.
It's overall linear like Demon's souls with seperate paths but you can skip areas and bosses in order to reach the end of each path, in fact only 8 or 9 bosses are mandatory to beat the game whereas in Demon's souls everything is mandatory.
Many of the areas are not just straight lines to a boss, some like Shrine of Amana lean more towards that but even that is not bad thing because I believe variety is the strength of these games, not exploration nor combat.
I also think your example of a "pointless shortcut" in huntsman's copse is poor example because it's not pointless, all of them serve some purpose even if not all of them are major skips in a level to a boss.
Some of them function to simply bring the player back to where they started after they've completed an optional area.
The one in huntsman's copse is next to a optional area you drop down to and after you've finished the side path, you can use the shortcut back to the bonfire and you don't have to deal and worry about extra enemies on your way back.
Only example of an actual pointless shortcut is in Archdragon peak in Dark Souls 3 after you defeat ancient wyvern.
That shortcut doesn't serve to bring you back to a bonfire (because you have another bonfire right below it) nor as a way to loop the player back from a optional side path.
Calling ds2 linear is absolute nonsense.
Espionage when ds3 exists. Ds3 feels like a fucking playstaion "game"
I would say not every shortcut is useless, but there are some, straight up never use it.
Elden Ring first playthrough: I fell from the roof of Castle Stormveil, i didn't want to leave any place unexplored so i teleported. Then i realized i lost the oportunity to feel lost, scared and inmerse in the world
Maybe they should have implemented some limitations in Legacy Dungeons to capture that old feeling of being lost.
Something like while in a Legacy Dungeon, you can only teleport from other graces. The ability to teleport from the map only available while in the overworld.
I believe that would have made the legacy dungeons more imposing.
And they do already sometimes disable teleportation if you're deep into some lesser dungeons.
lmfao you could do the same with homeward bones in every other souls game.
@@theholypopechodeii4367 It's weird, i've never used the teleport consumables in any other Fromsoft game.
I guess it's because they were limited and couldn't buy them forever, more importantly, homeward bones brought you ONLY to the previous bonfire, you couldn't chose.
Fast travel in ds1 feels like one of the things made out of haste, they just couldn't make a proper path for the second half of the game and gave you a teleporter. It always felt weird that they kept it in the other games
I agree that fast travel is not my favorite design choice, but I'd argue that Fromsoft level design and world design is still top tier. Stormveil, Leyndell, Ashina Castle, and Fountainhead Palace are all amazing. Also, Bloodborne had the best shortcuts out of all the games even with fast travel, most areas revolve around one central lamp until you get the post-boss lamp. All the areas have beautifully designed shortcuts.
Its funny to me that you say DS2 is the worst design with pointless shortcuts, where it is the game that rewards you for both for a no resting at bonfire run and a no discovery of bonfire run, where this shortcuts are the difference between victory or death. Majula connects to most of the map and the map branches around like a Star, where Majula gives access to 5 different paths. This 5 paths are not interconnected but feature very strong pathing shortcuts.
Bloodborne has the worst design
The game is 99% shortcuts.
Ds3 is a trash museum of previous titles.
Elden ring is the same thing.
The reason, in my opinion, Ds1 fast travel is the best - you can't just warp to ANY bonfire. You have a selection of pre-selected ones that act as local hubs, but once there, you still have to walk your assback through the level that may ormay not have a shortcut you unlocked. I think Elden Ring would feel much better if only select couple of graces were warpable in each area. Think the whole lot of pointless ladder shortcuts in Raya Lucaria near church of cuckoo
I mean, Elden Ring does have this in legacy dungeons, to be honest. To me it's as if they looked back at DS1 and tried to recapture A BIT of that feeling, but in micro-pockets, rather than trying the fool's errand of doing it for the entirety of the open world.
I'll grant you that the world of ER as a whole cannot compete with the one of DS1 in terms of the sheer inter-connectedness, but it also doesn't really need to - it's a different beast, and the two probably shouldn't be directly compared despite sharing a great deal of similar design choices. I'm glad to see FromSoft try new things and evolve, rather than just stick to one worn-out formula and just pumping out reskinned games ad nauseum akin to ubisoft.
There are so many games that I love that came out with a lot of cut content cause of the time constraints. DS1 being one of them. I often imagine what the game would be like if the devs had enough freedom do deliver on their vision. I hope one day we get Dark Souls remake but wit all of the content that was cut or rushed, fully fleshed out.
There were several years where i only played Dark Souls, playing thru a bulk of pve almost daily just to try a new build in pvp. It was a weird time lol. Lots of rage ngl
People argue about which Souls game is better with Bloodbourne's aesthetic, Elden Ring's world, Dark Souls 3's bosses. But no one talks about Dark Souls 1's level design. If the game had fast travel from the beginning with a world not as intricately connected I don't think it would be as revered as it is. It's great to see someone else that sees the game the same way
Everyone talks about dark souls 1’s level design. It’s what makes it so good.
everyone talks about ds1 level design lol
Ds2's pvp😢
It is talked about, I feel like the general consensus on what makes Souls games good misses the Dark Souls 1 level design as it was only really apparent in the first Dark Souls and even then it disappears at the second half
DS2 variety
I'd have appreciated if Elden Ring's legacy dungeons had one grace at the start and no teleportation allowed until all local bosses were dead.
Funny enough, the catacombs and caves work like that. Imagine if Stormveil and Castle Morn did as well, and later on as you got good at the game, legacy dungeons would get bigger and potentially have multiple bosses like Leyndell.
Makes sense, when I've replayed Elden Ring I've set a rule for myself that I can't warp unless I'm near a site of grace, and can only warp to the main hub and back unless I'm near a church, legacy/side dungeon, mage tower, or fort. I've generally found this way more fun than warping around everywhere, largely because I won't burn myself out with too much side content in areas I'm over-leveled for, since doing that becomes more trouble than its worth compared to moving on. However, I've been allowing myself to teleport to and from any site of grace in a legacy or side dungeon, not just the start and end, because I agree that the dungeons, while great, were not designed to loop back to the entrance in a way that lets me only use that site of grace to warp without it getting massively tedious to deal with any quest-related things.
Did you not get a bit sick of the horse? I feel like I would. You mentioned being over leveled which reminds me I think one problem with Elden Ring's open world is that you'll always be overleveled for some bosses regardless of anything. I LOVED the Erdtree Burial Watchdogs (the weird cat guys that make you think your game is lagging) but I never met one that was actually my level despite fighting like 10 of em. Also the mimic tear is very cool conceptually but it was so weak by the time I found it.
@@haku_haku_haku That's the thing, to the degree that I got sick of riding around I stopped backtracking and moved on to the next area, so I left a bunch of each area unfinished, which was the point. I only had a goal of killing all Remembrance bosses, not all bosses. IIRC the devs mentioned in interviews that they don't expect people to fight everything in one playthrough, but rather to stumble upon different things in repeat playthroughs.
@@haku_haku_haku You do know you can level spirits right? There's no way you think Mimic is weak if you do.
@@fastenedcarrot9570 I was talking about the boss fight.
@@haku_haku_haku I've never found it hard no matter how early I got there.
The level design still has this it’s just you’re not forced to interact with it in this way which leads to most people not interacting with it but it’s still there in most of their levels
"DS2 is the most egregious in map design"
DS3: *is a hallway leading to bosses*
Well put. This is the exact reason Dark Souls 1 is still my favorite.
I think I've read somewhere that they actually want to keep doing the interconnected world thing but it's just not feasible especially with the games getting bigger...
Might add a link if I can find it...
It's bizarre how this is possibly the most obvious change from DS1 - DS2, yet it's barely ever discussed, and people's complaints about DS2 focus heavily on far smaller, pettier details, like ADP (which you actually can get by fine without adding any levels to), and marginally worse hitboxes (they were bad in DS1 and still obviously imperfect in DS3). Sekiro is the closest thing we've ever gotten to a second coming of Dark Souls 1, but its not close enough.
As a counter point to this, I fucking hate some of the run backs they add nothing
some are okay and bearable, but in ds1 it was mostly okay because the bosses were very simple and wouldn’t take that many tries
Maybe Elden rings stake of marikas is a good way to solve this problem. Use those instead of bonfires, that way you have to use proper design and loop arounds etc but don’t have to deal with bad run backs that add nothing and hurt the fun of the game
4:16 "I wonder if Alt Tabbing will f up my game".
That's the realest inner monologue ever put into words.
A game that solves the issue is The Surge 1&2 Man does those games have great level desing.
I think its due to the fact that the development time has been efficiently been reduced to keep cranking these games as fast as possible that sadly the map and bonfire placement has suffered for it.
Just think about it. Theses games are so big now that theyre splitting the work and making every areas individually at the same time, and just putting them together as lego pieces at the end. It was very obvious in dark souls 3. Reason why you get 2 bonfires in the dragonslayer armour and the grand archives.
And theyre cranking these games every 2 to 5 years ( bloodborne 2015, old hunters 2015, ds3 2016, ringed city 2017, sekiro 2019, Elden Ring 2022, Armored Core 2023,SoTE 2024) not a single game or expansion older 2 or 3 years from each other.
Do you want to wait 10 years like rockstar, bethesda, or CD PR to realease a game just to add in fancy shortcuts? They couldnt even do that on datk souls 1, all of lost izalith, tomb of giants, ash lake, valley of drakes, and kiln of the first flame were unfinished because of that.
I'm kinda confused on why you mentioned Demons' Souls as you didn't really talk about it much (and you even mention how you aren't sure how it fits), but that's just a small nitpick.
I always thought that the reason FromSoftware didn't replicate that interconnectedness in the future Dark Souls games was because of how much effort and how much of a toll it took on the level design team, because designing a world that intricate and interconnected is... really fucking hard and time consuming! And that the reason the second half of the game drops in quality so much is because FromSoftware had to focus so much on the intricate world in the first half that they didn't really have time to do the same for after you beat Ornstein and Smough, and so they gave you the ability to teleport to slightly remedy that. Though since they were obviously short on time at that point, they couldn't make the teleport system as fleshed out, so FromSoftware just made it so you could only teleport to the most important locations.
I imagine that while FromSoftware still very much wanted to create interconnected levels (they still appear in future Souls games, just in more bite-sized areas), they absolutely didn't want to go through an experience like that again, which is why they never returned to it in the future games. That isn't to say a more polished version of Dark Souls 1's design isn't possible - a lot of what you are describing is in the game Tunic, which I absolutely love - I just think that FromSoftware reasoned they were not able to do it within the deadlines they had with Bandai Namco (because honestly, if there weren't deadlines, the Dark Souls games probably would've taken ages to release). The Dark Souls games are already very open and flexible in how you can approach encounters, and so making an interconnected world on top of that adds a lot of difficulty to the design. Though even in a game like Sekiro where the ways in which you can approach combat/exploration is much more narrow still had the ability to teleport anywhere, so maybe FromSoftware just *really* didn't want to repeat Dark Souls 1's development.
Also, while I do enjoy the interconnectedness, backtracking is very much a slog, especially when you are lost and are going all over the place trying to figure out where to go, something like that is a miserable experience. Yeah, having to take all your souls to a vendor can be stressful and tense the first time, but after a couple of times, it's just fucking annoying.
They also probably fleshed out the teleporting systems and focused on interconnectedness less was because that inherently makes the games more accessible to a wider audience: if you're stuck in an area or a boss, you can just teleport to somewhere else and come back later, you don't have to make a *journey* just to go somewhere else. This philosophy combined extremely well with Elden Ring and its open world, which is probably one of the reasons why that game blew up so much.
Ds2 was literally designed to be played without bonfires.
(If you wanted to play that way)
I like how people talk about dadn souls 2 yet they get all their opinions from that 1 video
'In defense of dark souls 2'
Ever since the ps3 & 360 era almost every damn game gets their opinions online from some stupid youtuber.
I'd imagine this to also be comparative to game size. Sens Fortress as my favorite zone of any From Software game is small by comparison to many areas even in DS2 that are similarly dangerous. Meanwhlie most of the other zones just felt like lived in places. I'd disagree with this in Elden Ring however as, specifically, Stormveil Castle feels like an actual Castle. It's got a confusing AF layout, is heavily defended by reasonably placed ranged attackers which cover and support the ground melee troops. This is done many times throughout Elden Ring.
While the loops aren't often there (a few okay ones are) the biggest symptom of this change is the Runback. now I do agree with this. The long Runback changed how environment mattered and it also has changed how invasions function. The shorter the runback the less time you have for invasion gameplay. Something that irritates me to this very day, for two large reasons. One i'm not trying to show up to the guys game when he's six feet from the boss fog unless i am between them and its DS2 style where i can backstab him out of the fog. I also don't want to be invading right in front of the guy. I want to hunt the host. Not be handed the host on a silver platter. It's just boring and obnoxious for all involved.
Finally someone put it to words what i've been thinking for a very long time. I can remember everything about dark souls 1 but if i think about dark souls 3 (my first souls and back then favourite) i can remember the places but they are blurry and dont mean enough to me
nah I'll take the QOL fast travel over the DS1 runbacks any day
While I, for the most part, agree with you, I'd like to note that Bloodborne also largely follows this world design philosophy. The prime example is Cathedral Ward which is connected to Central Yharnam, Hemwick Charnal Lane, Yahar'gul, Old Yharnam, Upper Cathedral Ward, Nightmare Frontier and the Hunter's Nightmare. Lots of Areas also have amazing shortcuts (e.g. the gate shortcut in Central Yharnam that leads back to your first lamp, the elevators in Forbidden Forest, Nightmare Frontier and Nightmare of Mensis or the amazing vertical level design and shortcut system of the Research Hall). It is not quite as interconnected as Dark Souls 1 but it's up there.
A game recommendation for all those who enjoy the world design of Dark Souls 1: The new Lords of the Fallen game has pretty much the same world design as Dark Souls 1 in the way that all the areas are interconnected and there are lots of brilliant shortcuts. I'd argue that in certain areas it even surpasses the world design of Dark Souls 1 (and I say this as someone who has played and loved Dark Souls 1 for over a decade at his point).
DS1 really plays like a Metroidvania. I was amazed how I felt like I was playing Hollow Knight or Super Metroid. I’m playing through 2 right now, and I hate the world.
DS2 is the best DS... You will see
DS2 is good for subsequent runs, on the original. Scholar is just worse, the problem you're facing is most likely how little you know, meaning you wont get the upgrades you need to really enjoy it.
Very good video!
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Counter argument, the world design of DS1 not only falls apart after Anor Londo but in general the lack of fast travel for the first 2/3s of the game basically masks how actually short the game is.
Needing to trek 5-15 minutes or more to get from where I am to a shop or to ascend my weapon is annoying and wastes time.
Want to buy some new spells, same difference.
Add that all the short cuts and connectiviness disappears after Anor Londo and it is very overrated
DS2 still has many useful shortcuts even on normal playthroughs but as people mention no bonfire runs are a thing so many short cuts exist for that reason and in general DS2 still has a lot of focus on stages being a threat and exploration.
DS3 is clearly focused on linear progression and Fighting over stage threatening you so the shift makes more sense
Elden Ring is open world enough said
My fondness for DS1 had very little to do with a reliance on short cuts or the popping back into fire link. It is neat but it becomes more of a burden then a postive after the first playthrough
As much as this is seen a good feature of the old games, in actualality they wasted alot of the players time in run backs.
And i dont just mean in run backs to the boss, but just in general, running through the levels was just a tediouly long, even with some short cuts, and the boss runbacks being long was just a natural consequence of that.
Because your average enemies are much more harder to fight in elden ring, literally, take leyndell for example, there so many mini bosses in that 1 level alone, so many checkpoints are placed for convenience to balance out that experience as not only can the level not always unnaturally loop back, even with countless ladders and elevators, it would also just be tedious.
Im not saying that its generally bad, in the slower paced souls game, it was alot more enjoyable of an experience, but i can garantee most people would actually hate it in the newer games, where they filled every corner with the nameless king.
So to save the players time and not ruin the gameplay with too much running past dozens of enemies (which elden ring already does alot of in the open world), a convinently placed checkpoint is not too different than a convinently placed shortcut.
But im not saying they are completely the same, like shortcuts are diminished in value if you now there's a convinent checkpoint just beofore the boss, so unlocking the shortcuts is kinda pointless in the long hall, but most people explore the level anyway before doing the boss, but still just somthing i thought to point out.
Also why in dark souls1 can i fast travel to 3 out of the 4 bonfires in Anorlondo, but thenthere isnt a single one in blighttown or demon ruins, i mean except the *hidden* bonfire with the fair lady, a player would have a seriously long ass runback to get back here.
what pants were you wearing at 1:57?
Hot take: DS2 has superior level design to DS3
Im super curious why you think so! Personally found enemy placement to feel less thoughful in ds2 and didnt enjoy it as much :/
Enemy placement is different depending on whether you played the original or SOTFS edition. Ds3 was definitely more linear which I did not like all that much.
@@weareone1575 thanks for asking. I'll start by saying I understand I'm in the minority on this topic, but this is how I feel when I play these games.
DS2 (I'm referencing Scholar, my preferred and the more widely available edition) punishes you highly for ignoring enemies, but it's not impossible to do so. What you would consider unthoughtful enemy placements, I consider it a lot more respectful of the player in affording them a meaningful challenge. Whereas DS3 is so generous with the space between mobs, that it feels more like I'm in a playpen. When enemies are so easy to avoid the levels become merely a means to get to the next boss. For a fair example I'll compare 2 infamously difficult areas and how the slow/swamp effect is implemented, namely Shrine of Amana and Farron Keep.
The common strategy in DS3 is to use the dagger quickstep to traverse the level and complete the objective of snubbing out the three candles. Upon repeat playthroughs racing through everything and getting the loot is very easy. Now Shrine of Amana in comparison has a lot more challenge involved. There is no way around the slow mechanic like in DS1 or 3. Getting past the 1st and 3rd stretches of this zone is simple enough, but the most difficult spot is the run between the 2nd and 3rd bonfires. This spot is one of the only points in the game where you actually can't weave past enemies, so you have to deal with the mages attacking you in the slow water. With repeat runthroughs, it is possible to defeat a limited number of enemies while getting through the zone . It's a challenging and interesting zone for me even on repeat runs.
So both of these zones are known as the most annoying and challenging areas as their respective slow effect levels. But in the case of Shrine it's a bit more complex and replayable. So in DS3 it's a lot simpler to run past mobs and you're rewarded for that, whereas it's discouraged in DS2. That ultimately makes me prefer DS2 because it's more interesting. As another brief example I recently learned how to do the infamous Smelter Demon runback hitless. It's just more complicated and fun compared to having such a generous amount of space to stroll past every single enemy.
And this is lengthy already but the common response is "just fight the DS3 enemies for fun", but that is beside the point of the challenge of the game. It's a fun challenge when enemies and obstacles are in your way and it's just a hallway to get from point A to point B without that.
@@weareone1575 thanks for asking. I'll start by saying I understand I'm in the minority on this topic, but this is how I feel when I play these games.
DS2 - I'm referencing Scholar, my preferred and the more widely available edition - punishes you highly for ignoring enemies, but it's not impossible to do so. What you would consider unthoughtful enemy placements, I consider it a lot more respectful of the player in affording them a meaningful challenge. Whereas DS3 is so generous with the space between mobs, that it feels more like I'm in a playpen. When enemies are so easy to avoid the levels become merely a means to get to the next boss. For a fair example I'll compare 2 infamously difficult areas and how the slow/swamp effect is implemented, namely Shrine of Amana and Farron Keep.
The common strategy in DS3 is to use the dagger quickstep to traverse the level and complete the objective of snubbing out the three candles. Upon repeat playthroughs racing through everything and getting the loot is very easy. Now Shrine of Amana in comparison has a lot more challenge involved. There is no way around the slow mechanic like in DS1 or 3. Getting past the 1st and 3rd stretches of this zone is simple enough, but the most difficult spot is the run between the 2nd and 3rd bonfires. This spot is one of the only points in the game where you actually can't weave past enemies, so you have to deal with the mages attacking you in the slow water. With repeat runthroughs, it is possible to defeat a limited number of enemies while getting through the zone . It's a challenging and interesting zone for me even on repeat runs.
So both of these zones are known as the most annoying and challenging areas as their respective slow effect levels. But in the case of Shrine it's a bit more complex and replayable. So in DS3 it's a lot simpler to run past mobs and you're rewarded for that, whereas it's discouraged in DS2. That ultimately makes me prefer DS2 because it's more interesting. As another brief example I recently learned how to do the infamous Smelter Demon runback hitless. It's just more complicated in fun compared to having such a generous amount of space to stroll past every single enemy.
And this is lengthy already but the common response is "just fight the DS3 enemies for fun", but that is beside the point of the challenge of the game. It's a fun challenge when enemies and obstacles are in your way and it's just a hallway to get from point A to point B without that.
@@weareone1575 thanks for asking. I'll start by saying I understand I'm in the minority on this topic, but this is how I feel when I play these games.
DS2 - I'm referencing Scholar, my preferred and the more widely available edition - punishes you highly for ignoring enemies, but it's not impossible to do so. What you would consider unthoughtful enemy placements, I consider it a lot more respectful of the player in affording them a meaningful challenge. Whereas DS3 is so generous with the space between mobs, that it feels more like I'm in a playpen. When enemies are so easy to avoid the levels become merely a means to get to the next boss. For a fair example I'll compare 2 infamously difficult areas and how the slow/swamp effect is implemented, namely Shrine of Amana and Farron Keep.
The common strategy in DS3 is to use the dagger quickstep to traverse the level and complete the objective of snubbing out the three candles. Upon repeat playthroughs racing through everything and getting the loot is very easy. Now Shrine of Amana in comparison has a lot more challenge involved. There is no way around the slow mechanic like in DS1 or 3. Getting past the 1st and 3rd stretches of this zone simply enough, but the most difficult spot is the run between the 2nd and 3rd bonfires. This spot is one of the only points in the game where you actually can't weave past enemies, so you have to deal with the mages attacking you in the slow water. With repeat runthroughs, it is possible to defeat a limited number of enemies while getting through the zone . It's a challenging and interesting zone for me even on repeat runs.
So both of these zones are known as the most annoying and challenging areas as their respective slow effect levels. But in the case of Shrine it's a bit more complex and replayable. So in DS3 it's a lot simpler to run past mobs and you're rewarded for that, whereas it's discouraged in DS2. That ultimately makes me prefer DS2 because it's more interesting. As another brief example I recently learned how to do the infamous Smelter Demon runback hitless. It's just more complicated in fun compared to having such a generous amount of space to stroll past every single enemy.
And this is lengthy already but the common response is "just fight the DS3 enemies for fun", but that is beside the point of the challenge of the game. It's a fun challenge when enemies and obstacles are in your way and it's just a hallway to get from point A to point B without that.
Sorry, pruning keeps ripping my comment don't know why. Parenthesis might trigger it.
People like these would be praising litteral do-do, if said do-do had "no teleport cuz creative vision" 💀
stopped at "DS2 was worst".
DS2 is objectively understood as the worst game Fromsoftware has put out recently. It's just the truth
I dunno why everyone wants to blame fast travel for the interconnectivity going away. On the surface it makes sense, but Bloodborne had fast travel from the jump and that had plenty of interconnectivity and overall better level design then DS1. DS1 had higher peaks but its lows are some of the lowest in the franchise.
No map and no teleports are all good for immersion until you need to whip out a guide every so often because you're lost. Again. And again. While some people can't navigate a game world do to a lack of commitment (and hawing advantages in the form of the ability to reliably get to passes can motivate to gain said commitment) but some people just terrible at navigation (like me for example). I can easily spend hours hunting down useless for my build crap for lore and to have the opportunity to fight those who guards said crap, but if there are too many same looking corridors (with same enemies nonetheless) I get confused oh so easily. I have even managed to get lost in some Nioh levels, and they are not even close to the level of interconnectivity and scope, not to mention being more linear and with a lot of high grounds and multiples of paths to the end objective (that was also known from the start) so here's that.
This is also the worst part of Elden ring. Wast open fields with so much downtime between where the only enemy you can't just run away from are the bosses.
Why would you pick Demon's Souls 2020 as an example?
Makes no sense, not even chronologically.
So in short, you don't like Fast Travel.
Dark Souls was so great that Dark Souls 2 made me quit buying Fromsoft games. They peaked with DS, but I'm a PC player so I don't know about Demon Souls or Bloodbourne
What I find sad is how so many ppl's first exp w/ a Souls game was Elden Ring. I'm forever grateful for Dark Souls being my 1st and while it is dated and can't match the tech advancements of ER; DS1 is my preferred game along w/ DS3 & BB. Demons Soul's was good but I can't call it great bc the bosses are just so trivial. However, it's also not fair to compare bc it was the 1st and is 15 years old. I just really hate the direction ER went and I pray FS goes back to their roots but given they made so much money off it, I suspect the Souls games as we came to love is probably dead :(
I‘d be fine with either, I love all the Fromsoft games I‘ve played so far
From does what they want, they don't chase the money or trends. Miyazaki already stated that big projects like ER aren't gonna be the norm, next game is probably going to be something different like Sekiro and Bloodborne
@@zjay Something diff would be nice so long as they favor quality over quantity.
@@zjaygod I hope so. ER is so overrated and the open world is an absolute slog. Couldn’t even finish the DLC because of how burnt out I already am from the game in general. For a game with so much content and weapons, for me personally it has the least replay value because of how tedious it is
@@Synpathetix skill issue take ngl.
I think there are much better comparisons to make than Titanic for fast travel unless that was some kind of joke. That's a movie based off a real event that happened and this is a game based off mythology, they're completely different on a fundamental level. Like, I get your point but it's a really stupid comparison. You could've used a game instead like if you could teleport between save rooms in Resident Evil and how that would've really hurt the fear factor of the game as you could just leave any scary area and do something else.
I love Sekiro, but it suffers from the same flaw
I disagree so much. I think the DS1 level design is awful and the shortcuts are to blame for it. The game is patticularly designed to loop on itself, but that also limits their design so much. Everything is crowded, cramped in place. Everything is a corridor or a cliff. They do this so you dont have to run back so much but also make the map bigger than it seems. Notice how every open area of the game never has clever shortcuts and often lead to a dead end in DS1. Because they couldnt do both. I think bloodborne did some middleground, but i rather prefer level design unbound by shortcuts
It's so bizarre, it's like none of you ever played Castlevania. You're amazed by something fromsoft copied from Castlevania.
Metroidvania world design is limited in 2d and nowhere near as geographically cohesive without losing thematic variety. RPG elements don't shine as much either like in DS1 with all the pathway freedom.
FromSoft is so obsessed with placing bonefires that in the Elden Ring DLC Midra's Manse was actually designed to loop back to the beginning twice yet, for some reason, they placed a completely unnecessary site of grace next to both shortcuts. They are literally less than ten seconds away from the first bonfire. It's the one thing that stuck to me the most about that level.
Farron Keep was a better experience.
@@heyguyslolGAMING Farron Keep always seemed to me as if it was designed with one central bonfire in mind (where the Black Knight is) and passages in all directions which had do be opened from the other side.
Same thing happens before the shadow tree avatar fight , one site of grace along with a summoning pool near the suspended bridge which takes like 5 seconds to cross and than we get another grace with another summoning pool , who tf designed that
It's crazy how much better the Manse would be without that bonfire. Very frustrating design.
You can thank everyone that complained about "corpse runs" in the older games. This started with DS3 already, which had way too many bonfires.
4:48 so why did you need binoculars equipped here
SHIT HOW DO I DELETE COMMENTS
@@haku_haku_haku Amazing chest ahead. ;)
Binoculars needed.
@@haku_haku_hakubro really caught you in 4k
>flashbacks of laughing at the DS3 Grand Archives bonfire 10 feet away from the Dragonslayer Armour bonfire, right after having laughed at the elevator "shortcut" that was longer than the normal way
Elden ring did that to the extreme... Basically every time you fight a boss you get the "dragonslayer grace" as I called it during my playthrough and it's worst sometimes too as it's literally 10 feet away from each other
I'm positive that boss bonfires were a last second addition to the game.
The worst part is that if they moved that bonfire to the beginning of the arena, not as many people would say anything about it as the distance is larger and it makes it much more convenient to access the sunlight altar.
Istg it takes longer to run to the sunlight altar (which is like 5 seconds away from the boss fog gate) than to the grand archives bonfire.
it was longer, but atleast it was safer.
I think there is a clear shift in design philosophy in souls games starting with DS3.
In old souls games environments played a much bigger role than in later games and played a bigger role in threatening the player.
Let's look at some examples in DS1
-the iconic silver knight archers in anor londo
-the painting guardians on the chandeliers
-blight town elevators and bridges +the poisen swamp below
-new londo ghosts attacking while climbing ladders
Even the boss areas had environmental hazards
-taurus demon with the crossbow hollows behind you
-capra demon with the small arena and the dogs
-centipede demon and the lava
-O&S with the pillars
In time souls games changed from "adventure" games to boss battle games just compare boss arenas from demon's souls/DS1&2 to later games and the shift becomes more obvious.
Yeah it definitely seems Dark Souls 2 was the last place it was somewhat common. I remember the ballista in the Pursuer fight, the platforms in Dragonrider, Rising water against Flexile Sentry, etc.
Bloodborne and Elden Ring can not be considered just boss battle games, the area’s leading up to the bosses, minor or major, have multiple different obstacles unqiue to that area
the ballistas in Caelid being fire based, the prisoner guy that turns into a version of Margit followed closely by the golems shooting arrows, the mounted bows that shoot you if you try and enter through the Gate of Stormveil, that metal boulder followed by Parry Critical Stab Toss off the elevator knight (hate that guy so very much)
I know I mainly just mentioned Elden Ring here, and thats mainly due to me so far only getting to the 2nd boss being that Wolf Priest Lady, plus that fight against the summoner and all that, but Bloodborne has that style too
You can say their less of adventure games then the older titles, but their nowhere near to being boss fight games, like Black Myth Wukong.
@@leoultimaupgraded9914 You are correct. I don’t think it’s as bleak as some may think. I still wish there was more going on with the boss fights themself though. A bit too many take place in an open arena with nothing else, but the boss. I can’t speak on Bloodborne as I do not own a PlayStation.
@@leoultimaupgraded9914: The problem is that because of an overabundance graces and stakes of Marika, navigational hazards are rarely ever something a player has to contend with more than once. As much as some people complained about runbacks, it was an important part of the pacing.
Overcoming and mastering the levels themselves used to be part of the effort required to beat a boss, now it's just something to do in-between bosses and it makes the whole game feel that much more disjointed. Fighting bosses no longer feels cohesive with world exploration, but rather like playing two different games awkwardly smushed together.
@@dooperdooper6679you forgot the tiny stupid hole in the old iron king fight, ashen idols in fume knights Arena, many used them before the fight so one would still be there and heal him when you get to close hahaha. The arena with the executioners chariot was a cool idea too and ivory kings arena was ths best in the whole game.
Bloodborne had this for the most part and it's the one game that would probably work just as well if they removed fast travel or maybe make it so you could travel to the dream and back to the lantern you traveled from not any you want, then unlock normal fast travel after Rom
Thank goodness for the lantern menu mod for Bloodborne PC. I can't wait because that was literally one of my only complaints during my playthrough (the other being no respec)
Nope, most shortcuts (not in the same level) are completly useless like the one after you beat paarl
I love fast travel
Bloodborne level design sucks.
99% of the game is shortcuts.
Shortcuts that are mostly unnecessary.
I mean, there are shortcuts that lead to shortcuts ffs
(Mergos loft)
Nope, Bloodborne is no different. In fact, it's the one that started the trend of useless, redundant checkpoints in areas you won't encounter any substantial danger.
Just look at the lumenflower garden - clock tower - fishing hamlet situation. Or the Tomb of Oedon - Cathedral Ward and SoY Byrgenwerth one.
And let's not talk about the Chalices.
Don't get me wrong, Bloodborne does have amazing looping shortcuts, but it isn't any different from Ds3 in that regard.
The only reason Dark Souls 1 shortcuts happened is specifically because they tied Estus Quantity to Bonfires Kindling Levels. You have to give a legitimate reason to loop and not just for the sake of looping. Firelink was a functional mechanical design choice as a consequence to the idea of Kindling. It's not a coincidence once Kindling was taken out they stopped looping as much because there's objectively no reason to loop the player. At all. Kindling was that little piece of glue that gave it cohesion.
I hadn't thought about that.. Yeah
DS3 does have the chapel of the deep which does keep looping back to the one bonfire, but since kindling isn't a mechanic it's more of a gimic than anything
This is an excellent point!
Yeah, Firelink Shrine was such a great area because it was always at your max kindling level. Every time you got to a new bonfire, you always needed Humanity to get you back to your max, but Firelink never failed you. That's why you might take the long elevator to get to the Gargoyle boss instead of just walking from Andre (though that one being connected to lots of places made for a good choice if you had extra Humanity to spare by that point).
I severly disagree about it being the "only" reason. It's not even the main reason. It is a nice game design element that incentivises you to return to the main bonfire but the main reasons was the level design and firelink shrine's geographical location which is very central. Sure its relevance would fade slightly late game but erven without kindling that would happen as its geographical location wouldn't be as relevant once you get teleportation.
Kindling is a nice addition, but it's not the only reason or even the main one.
There are DS2 shorcuts that look useless but make perfect sense when you remember that is the only game in the franchise that encourages you to do a no bonfire run. Then all those so called useless shortcuts are not useless at all. God, even homewardbones do not replenish neither your hp nor spell cast uses for the same reason, so it cannot be exploited in that type of run.
Best Souls 2
That's a challenger run, you don't design a game thinking that some hardcore gamer would want to play it without resting in any place. Still garbage shortcuts then...
@@arnaldob.g.9934 Actually, you do. You clearly don't know what you are talking about...
Deathless and bonfire-less runs are part of the game. It's not a community run, not in this game. You get a reward in game if you do these runs. They knew you would play like that, the game is designed to accommodate anyone who wants to do these runs. Is not that hard to understand... I even gave the example of the homeward bones...
And my friend, that's good game design, whether you like it or not...
@@arnaldob.g.9934but Dark Souls isn’t exactly for casual gamers
That’s something less than 10% of players will actually attempt.
You're talking about the metroidvania-esque connectivity that DS1 had. It was indeed amazing.
Dark Souls 3 still did this with Cathedral of the Deep and Lothric Castle-Grand Archives but they could not have done this in Elden Ring due to the nature of the sprawling open world. There were some shortcuts in Elphael, Stormveil, Leyndell, Belurat and Shadow Keep. In their next game if it isn't open world, then they would probably continue the style of DS1 interconnectivity
I definitely agree. Elden Ring, being an open-world game, was kind of forced into having a fast-travel mechanic, and that in no way diminished its fun.
My general rule of thumb is, if it’s an open-world game, fast-travel is 100% needed, except for in subsections of the map. If the map is small or medium-sized, there should be a lot of shortcuts, or a partial fast-travel system (like the stag stations in Hollow Knight), or both.
@@ProbablyBaconYeah, you can't really have it both ways. I don't even know how you'd incorporate meaningful shortcuts and interconnectivity in a massive open world.
There were a lot of shortcuts in all the legacy dungeons, also in Bloodborne and Sekiro too.
@@theholypopechodeii4367 I think having so many sites of grace throughout the legacy dungeons that you can warp to made the shortcuts less impactful. Like, you might unlock a door partway through the level that you'll pass through once or twice, but as soon as you get to the next site of grace you'll never need to use it again. I wonder if it would be better if you could only fast travel to the entrance and the boss checkpoint...
Cathedral of the Deep is so good. Couldn't name a single site of grace that has that kind of exploration around it.
dark souls 1 fans nutting the moment they see THE ELEVATOR, omg the elvator loops back mnghhhh ahhhhhhh oooaaaah.
Dark souls 1 fans when this entire thing doesn’t matter past early game
@@maniac7302 Thats why the every fun thing about the game ends after you beat o&s
@@maniac7302 "early game" is a misleading considering you normally get the power to warp halfway through the game. It's like a solid 50% of the experience if not more depending on if its your first playthrough or not. Plus it's also a massive first impression, and you still have to learn the world even after obtaining warp powers.
We literally have compilations of "UA-camrs react to Siofra River elevator" so the fandom hasn't really changed.
Cool bosses are cool and all but the majority of your time is spent exploring and interacting with the level design; so yes, even something as mundane as an elevator can be the trigger of the "Wait THAT'S what the level design has in store in this game?!"
Bloodborne has a combination of both types of design, since the map is all conected in some way and the lamps are just a few placed in key locations. Fast travel is still a thing but it's put in a way that you often would have to just walk your way into new zones or backtrack in order to make some progress or discover new areas.
Imo is worse, because you have a hub like area with considerable load times that makes the process between far zones larger that it should be
@@laguaridadesyx Yes, it's Demon's Souls style, probably because it was originally a sequel to Demon's Souls. From downplays the connection, but from Miyazaki's wink and nod wording (saying things like "we'll get in trouble") it's pretty clear the separation is for legal reasons, not substantive vision ones. Bloodborne NPCs in the release version have cut dialogue of saying "Umbasa!" from Demon's Souls haha
Bloodborne has so little good bosses and is incredibly linear. Its just ds3 but in fucking gotham city.
Completely agree. It was my favorite thing about Dark Souls and I’m somewhat sad they went in the complete opposite direction in Elden Ring to make a big old open world that I personally don’t find nearly as enjoyable to explore as Firelink, Undeadburg, Blighttown
Gothic 1&2 did fast travel the best I think. No horses, you are just walking, but there are speed potions. Then after some big quests, after the halfway point of the game, you get some teleport scrolls that you can buy also, 1 use only. Then you can get teleport runes as big quest rewards, which only get you to a specific spot. They cost mana to use but unlimited uses.
Kind of like Bonfire warping but more lore friendly as it is just another magic spell. :)
And while there were maps, they were done in the old mapmaking style. So you got like a rough drawing or painting of the map and you had to buy it.
At least they put the cursor on it so you can see where you are. Bit of comfort really. Can still get lost.
I really detest how it is done in Oblivions/Skyrim, where you can just pop to any place you have explored already. Terrible.
But on the other hand it is really rewarding to just walk everywhere in skyrim.
Gothic 1 & 2 are often linked in positive fashion to DS1 too ~ the ability to fast travel being granted to the player as a reward only AFTER they usually explored over half the land, or most, is the ideal balance between not making runbacks feel too tedious & repetitive later, while also letting the player fully engage and just take in the world design early-to-mid.
Wish more games would do it...
dark souls 2 is full of good and useful shortcuts, idk what you're on.
especially in the DLC levels
they're not always immediately apparent. like the door in lost bastille that looks like it leads to nowhere, but is actually a shortcut you can jump into
Ds2 is brilliant. It gives you branching paths and clever shorts cuts while also allowing you to fast travel to save time. I enjoyed its branching paths. You can go to forrest of fallen giants or Tower of Heide or Grave of saints off the bat from Majula, it then Tower of Heide and forrest both loop into lost bastile. While the path to tower of Heide can branch into the earthen peak route. And you can also find another route from majula by freeing milibeth with a branch of fragrant yore.
just another DS2 hate bandwagoner. The game isnt perfect but its level design is fine.
@@ORLY911 "...its level design is fine." yeah that's exactly the video's point, it was just fine. Not incredible like previous games.
@@ORLY911imo the level design, disregarding the enemy placements for this, is genuinely great in ds2. the levels are fun to explore with interesting features that make the world feel more interactive than both DS1 & DS3 which probably sounds crazy but that’s how it felt for me as someone who has recently marathoned the trilogy.
DS2 and 3
have great individual levels, with shortcuts, alternate routes and loops within them, but as a complete world, no. Each of the 3 main paths in DS2, as well as the entirety of DS3 is a straight line, and at every bonfire you can and usually should teleport back to the main hub. You can even only level up there for some reason.
1:06 the reason everyone parrots this is because every 5 minutes another video essayist craps out a video talking about how much they loved the interconnectivity, and the circlejerk continues
Ds1 is my favorite game of all time and sure, Ds2 wasnt as interconnected as Ds1, but it still had its fair share of shortcuts. Most of them really just gave you an easier access to a boss fight, maybe a path with less enemies.
Also, Majula is probably the most interconnected map in all of souls games, even more than Firelink Shrine in DS1(EDIT: Not really, but pretty much on par). DS2 felt more open ended. there were a lot more places that you could go without that big of a level difference (like that of undead burg vs the graveyard in ds1 for example). I still get confused which areas to do first meanwhile i have memorized the best order to play ds1 in.
maybe that's why the level curve and scaling kinda suck in ds2? To make the difficulty of different maps relatively same no matter which route you take?
Edit 2: Ds2 having fast travel from the get go is probably the reason they never bothered to add metroidvania esque shortcuts. But the level design is still pretty solid for what they managed; one hub area that connects to multiple areas that yet again connect to multiple areas. Ds2's map spirals out, like a tree with its branches. Meanwhile ds1's is like that of a spider's web.
Ds3 is the only one where I have a problem with lazy no interconnectivity map design.
DS1's Firelink Shrine is a lot more open ended than DS2's Majula. You have undead burg, graveyard, or the elevator which can lead you to: new londo, blighttown, darkroot, undead parish. There are also minor locations in between those major ones.
DS2's Majula does have branching paths but the reason why it isn't as meaningful as DS1's is you always start from Majula, branch outwards, and never loop back like in DS1. And you never need to anyways since you can warp everywhere. In DS1, you cannot warp back in the beginning, so venturing out and returning home is an adventure in itself. Majula is great but it isn't the same as Firelink.
@@xx_amongus_xx6987 I do agree in the second part but not in the first part. From majula you can go to the Forest of the fallen giants, Heide's tower of flame, huntsman copse, shaded woods (which divides in three new areas), grave of saints or the gutter (since you can skip the first one) and Things Betwixt. And you can also access them fairly easy. I would say that Majula is on par with Firelink Shrine in that regard.
Again, I do agree that is more satisfying in DS1 due to the shortcuts back to it due to the lack of tp, but Majula gives you more accesible (enemy friendly) routes from the begining.
@@xx_amongus_xx6987 You're right, i completely forgot about valley of the drake and all the places it also makes accessible from firelink.
What i think i meant to say was that Majula gave you more options in the beginning. And yeah i also agree that spiraling back to home is a wonderful feeling that i really wish was in ds2. But for what reason? You already can fast travel there wherever you are...
That's another gripe about ds2 and ds3 i have; they give you fast travel from the get go. In ds1, it felt earned. And ds3 has the worst case imo, the first area from firelink is only accessible from warping?? Like wtf? Why?
@@Aresuuu i actually think they are pretty much equal in terms after a bit of thinking. And, as you said, ds1 includes NEW shortcuts back to firelink, whereas that never happens in ds2. Majula really is closer to the Nexus from DeS than Firelink Shrine from DS1.
@@Aresuuu Maybe its equal then. But to be fair in DS1 all of these places can be accessed immediately after starting in Firelink Shrine without any keys or special set ups (like for the gutter).
I think we both can agree here that DS1 and DS2 beat DS3 in level design.
I love how everyone gushes about this super minor aspect of Dark Souls. As if Dark Souls itself didn't just give up and make you have to teleport once you reached the end of an area. No idea why fanboys claim this particular aspect of Dark Souls when it's really just the first section of the game. Yes there is a fair amount of shortcuts that loop back to Firelink BUT that's not because it's all about looping the map it's just to make sure you have a "Main Bonfire" which you'll dump humanity into in order to have Max Estus capacity at all times. Unless you're a maniac and decided to upgrade every single bonfire. Since Humanity is generally pretty rare and hard to farm you really want to make sure you're using most of those Bonfire Kindlings. Hence Firelink being the center of the map so that you can easily get those Max Estus. Once you get Fast Travel it makes the idea of everything flowing back to Firelink a small detail as a consequence of the game design and not an objective goal.
If you participate in online co-op or invasions for the Humanity then it makes that aspect even less important as you can now reliably upgrade every Bonfire as you progress.
As a kid i also walked around with my shield up in every new area, those where some fun and tense times
On the other hand, the lack of fast travel in the first part of DS1 created issues in some very specific areas.
Think entering too deep into the catacombs or the ash lake before getting the lord vessel
Also, imagine entering Blighttown from the wrong entrance because you had master key and were too excited to explore this otherwise locked area early.
I explored the whole tomb of the giants after the bell gargoyles it was fun I see no problem
@@calebmcallister4289 If I am not mistaken, isn't the way to Nito blocked until you get the lord vessel? Which means you need to backtrack to the entrance. And it really depends on how far you progressed to determine how bad of a time you'll have getting back.
Thats what makes it so great. Your decisions as a player can have huge consequences. Bad and good. You can get stuck in the catacombs but you also can get rite of kindling (20Estus) early if you beat pinwheel or other usefull weapons.
@@thefebo8987 I'm not sure I'd like to call their decisions in the previously mentioned areas great.
For one, this particular one might have just been coincidence because the other ones have a very similar issue but they do not have such game-changing items.
Moreover, while Pinwheel himself is easy, the runback to him from the nearest bonfire isn't so, especially if you don't know about poise which I don't think they explain, despite being such a core mechanic. On the other hand, it's very likely to not realize such a mechanic exists, especially since wearing heavy armor gives you so many debuffs.
And as for me, didn't even use that item once in the game because the message after Pinwheel was just cryptic enough to go over my head back (also because I didn't engage in kindling bonfire due to humanity being a consumable and lost with death).
Finally, does it matter if you have 20 flasks if you die before consuming even one or two (because of those bony wheels)?
That what's called "Holding the player accountable." If you made it to the bottom of catacombs that early most likely you were dying really quick. It's the players fault if they enter areas they shouldn't. "Man these enemies are hitting me real hard, I should come back when I'm a higher level." Getting stuck and having to get yourself out was one of the best parts of the first DS.
If you look for more than 2 seconds you’ll notice that ds2 doesn’t have useless shortcuts because that was the only game actually made for no death/no bonfire runs
It has a couple of silly shortcuts (like the log he showed) for a casual playthrough but there are also some genuinely good shortcuts and secrets in levels. Probably as many as Demon's Souls has.
If your only defense is the game being designed for an extreme minority of the player base, that proves the game’s vision is overall flawed and doesn’t make the level design any better considering how few players actually attempt such a run
Bullshit nobody cared about the speedrunners they are the smallest minority
@@Rl55322someone has a skill issue with the game
@@Dregomz02the runs are part of the game not fan made runs
I really like the way Dark Souls 1 did it, where the fast travel and warping is something you have to EARN. All the shortcuts are helpful even without teleporting as well! And obtaining the Lordvessel from an actual god makes sense that it would give you some kind of power. They should have kept it like that I think.
The "don't like it, don't use it" argument against fast travel is a favourite of Oblivion/Skyrim apologists. Poorly implemented fast travel has a knock-on effect on a game's world design as a whole, usually making regular traversal extremely tedious.
I like to look at Morrowind and DS1 as analogues to one another in this context. Morrowind had a very robust _diegetic_ fast travel system that required you to put some thought into planning your routes. DS1 made you work to unlock fast travel, and that fact alone made it feel like a deserved reward, and restricting it to a select handful of bonfires ensured that you still had to engage with the world.
Oblivion is probably the most egregious example of poorly implemented fast travel, since it's entirely menu-based with no diegetic options like in Morrowind and, if I recall correctly, it also lets you fast travel to any major city from the get-go. It really is horrible for immersion.
Yeah
Fast travel is the difference between a questline being mindful of where the routing is going, and moving/introducing new contacts or quest steps accordingly, and having you walk across the country to say "yo", then walk back across to tell the guy who sent you that you said "yo", then getting the quest back where the guy you said "yo" to is.
When people say ds3 is their favourite I just think of the linear level design and how much I hate it for a game like dark souls, ds1 is the best
I think part of the shift came from the fans watching challenge runners. You can run past pretty much all enemies, leaving bosses the only concrete roadblocks for speed runners and challenge runners to face. strange or gimicy fights like moonlight butterfly or ceasless leave quite the impression on first time encounters but really aren't that interesting after you know their gimic. Artorias on the other hand is a tough fight that remains interesting even after you've beaten the game several times.
I think Fromsoft saw this and applied it to later games. Elden Ring and it's DLC are filled with fast aggressive bosses with long combos and big health bars. I still enjoy fighting those bosses, and I love watching challenge runs. But I do also love the older games where just getting to your destination was half the battle
it's a question of lost gameplay vs convenience, what do you actually lose by having fast travel?
if an area has something that you want to return for you'll do that regardless, fast travel just saves you the time of walking through an area you've already done everything in.
also in DS1 the hub is far less important than in the other games, the most important part is the bonfire for levels and you can homeward bone to those. you don't have the NPCs but in terms of gameplay they really aren't that important.
also also walking to vendors isn't a real point, you'll never walk to one with more than a level worth of souls and by the midgame their items are way cheaper than that.
nice try though.
There are tradeoffs associated with that type of design, and since they didn't want to keep creating the same game, they adjusted their design. DS1 is great and special, DS3 and elden ring are great in their own unique ways.
I think it has more to do with scale. A fully interconnected world is already complicated to plan out; on the increased scale the games started pushing? It was probably no feasible. So they restricted that complexity to the inside of dungeons, which are often interconnected to a small number of checkpoints (like the Cathedral of the Deep, or Lyndell).
Dark Souls 1 was **just** the right size to implement a big, and complex, 3D Metroidvania map (although considering they ran out of money and time even that might've been too big a task lol).
Simply put, an interconnected world with no fast travel simply places a hard limit to how big your world can be. DS1 ITSELF couldn't keep up and slapped on fast travel.
So it was abandoned in favour of a more expansive world, which is a win in my book. Additionally, even with fast travel you STILL have to go through the level the traditional DS1 way. The fact you can just TP back while true, is also present in DS1. There are VERY few places where TP'ing back in DS1 leaves you in a "stuck" state like ash lake. But for the vast majority of cases, you just TP back and you already have all the safe shortcuts back to firelink shrine or your vendor, then, you intentionally die to be sent back to where you were.. it's literally the same as DS3/BB but with a slight inconvenience cost and a longer mundane runback.
You're being a bit black-and-white, there's a happy medium where travel is embedded in the world in an immersive fashion. E.g. Morrowind gives access to a bunch of different forms of travel including teleporting, which doesn't compromise the design of the world but rather enhances it.
@@michaelcarroll5801 Can't speak on morrowind, but there absolutely is a happy medium.
I think BB is kinda there, you have LONG sections of pure immersion in levels with shortcuts looping back to the original bonfire ending with a boss. But ofcourse it has a few "disjoints" where you straight up TP somewhere new, which coincidentally(or maybe by design), thematically fits BB.
@@karayi7239The only inconvenience is always having to go through the Hunter's Dream everytime you teleport; although it's for lore reasons, it could have been avoided.
@michaelcarroll5801 I wouldn't exactly say Morrowind's lack of fast travel options enhanced the game, rather they were a detriment that players found creative and fun solutions to get around.
When you look at the options available for fast travel in Morrowind, a lot of problems become apparent very quickly. The first is that there's little consistency as to where silt-striders and boats appear. Some settlements will have one or both, while others won't. This is especially problematic with the strongholds, which are supposed to serve as player homes but are almost never utilized because you can't fast travel to them. There's also arbitrary restrictions placed on which silt strider can go where, often resulting in the player having to travel via silt strider from one city, to another, to another just to get to where they want to go. It would be far more convenient to have every silt strider, boat, and mage's guild capable of taking you to any major settlement.
I do think the idea of not having fast travel points for dungeons is pretty cool and makes the world feel more hostile and harsh while incentivising players to plan trips accordingly, but even that is made more frustrating than anything else by the game's comically slow movement speed. The slow movement was an intentional choice to disguise the relative smallness of the map compared to Daggerfall, but it wasn't necessary and just made traditional travel more tedious.
When people say they miss Morrowind's travel system, they usually really mean that they miss levitation and jump spells and fortifying movement speed beyond 100. Those were all undeniably fun ways to traverse the map and Oblivion and Skyrim lacked them. Fromsoft games also lack that kind of hyperspeed magic because would heavily conflict with their level design philosophy. If you could just bypass entire levels by flying or jumping across them, you'd be missing out on half the point of Fromsoft games - exploration. So OP is right, there's only so far you could go with interconnected would design and no fast travel. DS1 already went beyond those limits, hence the addition of warping in the second half of the game, and games like Elden Ring especially would not work at all without fast travel.
No, it's complete different with no fast travel
So what's the solution? How do you pull off a huge open world and still keep the intricate, hand crafted level design with shortcuts and interconnectivity? If you take away fast travel, the map size immediately becomes an issue. Maybe they could incorporate Metroidvania style ability-gates, so that you need certain abilities to reach certain areas?
I think having fewer warp points might've helped, or making it so that not every site of grace can be warped to, especially in legacy dungeons. That's where most of the classic interconnected level design is, so only being able to warp to the entrance would make the shortcuts you unlock inside more impactful (there would still be checkpoints, you just can't fast travel to or from them). And like the mini dungeons, they could have made it so you that can't warp out until you beat the boss. It's weird that's a thing in caves and catacombs, but not in legacy dungeons.
Look up how Morrowind did it, that's a good example. Someone else mentioned Gothic having a good system too but I haven't played that.
Just don't make fast travel from the start. Atleast not for free (maybe it cost 10000 souls or it has negative influence like world tendence in demon's souls). You could also make the player/mount a bit faster.
I don't know of any garbage shortcuts in 2. Everything had an obscure utility. Actual shortcuts were uncommon. A few NPCs never move to the hub area. No bonfire run meant you had to take what you could get for accessibility past treacherous level design and enemy layout, and just imagine the fastest trip from the start of the game all the way to Velstadt or Old Iron King without rest nor dying. Then there's optional explore stuff and bosses. Some paths open up paths you couldn't access before with the route you've chosen, and not every fight gave a bonfire. In contrast, every boss had a bonfire in DS3 and bonfires were braindead convenient. Enemies were also easiest to ignore in 3. Enemies were hardest to ignore in 2.
IMHO; I thought Dark Souls 2 being so convoluted and strange geographically fit the story and setting extremely well. Like... the very distances between landmarks is becoming forgotten and rotted.
Even as a DS2 hyper fan, I'll admit it set a bad precedent for the rest of the series & From in that way, though.
As much as I agree personally with the sentiment of this video, saying EVERY SINGLE player that played these games loved wasting their time walking back and forth through the same areas theyve already explored is plain stupid
This has stuck out to me in every souls game since DS1! One game that gives you pretty good, interconnected levels if you decide to abandon fast travel is the Lords of the Fallen remake.
So true. For me it's not the elevator to Firelink shortcut that blew my mind, but finding another and yet another shortcut after that. Seeing that the world was truly interconnected.
no bloodborne?
if every boss and area between shadows and gehrman didnt suck. it’s be on here
@@Elden-Bear you are kidding right??
@BNB-fk8jr
Eeeh I kinda agree. I'm probably a bit less harsh, but, Bloodborne is a lot more rough than people usually give honest credit to. Probably because it's modestly hard to play, so there's a lot of unchecked sunk cost cope running around.
Yarhnam and Cathedral Ward are good areas. Everything after is... kinda bleh. The world design breaks down into mostly straight lines with occasional poking alleys until one lets you continue, with only Cairnhurst rising to this challenge as a good linear level. Vicar Amelia is the first boss that really shows the weaknesses of Bloodborne, but, being the first is fine. The fact that basically every boss after her is either kind of a joke, or just dies to cripple spam or random blunderbus "parries" is not fine.
The fact that a good chunk of the difficulty of the game evaporates when you realize that playing unlocked makes you massively more capable, and all the thematic pressure to be hyper aggressive is actually the developers pleading with you to not just space out every fight because the enemies can't handle midrange isn't okay. There being more bad bosses than good ones isn't exactly rare for one of these games, but Bloodborne has probably the worst ratio of bad bosses to good. Like, Blood Starved, Logarius, Gherman, Ludwig, and Kos are it. Everything else is meh to bad.
Most of the weapons are just bad. The ratio of good weapons to bad is worse in bloodborne than it is in basically any other Fromsoft game, which is really really bad given the gameplay significance of each weapon and how few there are; and the trick weapon system may as well be quaint trivia, since basically every single weapon in the game has a "correct" way to use it, with the other form ranging from highly situational niche case, to only whipped out to be immediately put back because the transform attack is good, to only ever used by accident, and usually accompanied by a curse as the switch back button is mashed.
Blood gems are a horrible awful rotten no-good trash system. Here's your 1.4% damage in the rain and 2 poison buildup gem, kid. Hope the grind was worth it.
Guns are, for the most part, horrid, and the best way to use them is to fire wildly at an enemy having a panic attack at mid range until you clip them during an "attack" animation. Also more of the game pleading with you to play aggressively considering how unreasonably good the shields are, despite the game trying to mock you to keep you away from them, and giving them on paper bad performance.
The player movement is good, especially when you start playing unlocked, but that's just DS3 and kinda Sekiro but worse. Atmosphere and tone are good, plot is kinda schlop but it works, farming bullets and blood vials is just stupid because it breaks flow, even if the implementation of blood vials is the best estus has ever been otherwise.
Like, it's not a bad game, it's just much more flawed than is usually noted. It's a solid 8/10, worse than any Dark Souls game. But it's a marginally obscure 8/10, so it doesn't get checked, and has stylishness to hide some of the blemishes.
Also, The Old Hunters DLC is, in my opinion, what ultimately led to DS3 and Elden Ring being glorified boss rushes, since that's basically what The Old Hunters is, and it was praised for it. Short areas you can blitz through to fight big, bombastic bosses, and then maybe double back through later and go "woooow this map had an entire corner with absolutely nothing going on but a hat."
The Old Hunters IS pretty good, but, that's because it hadn't fully broken yet. There IS more going on in it, but the seeds of boss rush-dom are here.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 now ı disagree with most of your statements. But ı can show respect
First the level design. You said after cathedral ward it becomes bad. And you said the first areas are okay. For me the first area is the best level on frpmsoftwarr games. Its perfectly designed. You can choose your path to father g. Like you understand what I mean. The connection between little arenas and stuff is just masterpiece. The enemy placement enemies ohh amazing.
After cathedral ward there is old yharnam. For me it is so good but can be boring. So ı will not sat anything about it. Hemwicks charnel lane is one of the best arenas for me. Like the materials you get cool but the beauty is the art design and the atmosphere. The boss sucks but the level is amazing. Forbidden woods… brygwerth is cool but little. Yhargul is for me a good arena. Its fun to play and everything about it is cool.(the dog one is not the second time we go is cool) the level is massive and ı love the connections in it. ( I will get to the bosses) the nightmare frontier is shit arena. Mensis nightmare is just running so ı agree with you with this 2 arena. After micolash the little level between him and Mergo is really fun to me. The bloodrock arena too. I just enjoy. Btw bloodborne makes me kill every enemy in it every playthrough. I will explain why. The cainhurst can be boring. The uppercathedral ward is small but fun.
The dlc levels are masterpiece. The cathedral ward is amazing for me. The research hall can be one of the best arenas ever made in fromsoftware history. Everything is amazing. The fishing hamlet is meh. So for me there is good arenas after first 2 arenas.
Movement and speed is good for me. Better than sekiro.Because you much feel like you control it in Sekiro you can’t dodge atack with dodge button. In bloodborne you can.
The weapons and combat. The combat is the best in fromsoftware games imo. Its fast paced and it feels so good. That’s why I kill every enemy in everyplaythrough. the weapons are amazing to. Every weapon is amazing. There is 200 weapons in dark souls. In bloodborne there is 26. And each are amazing. 2 versions and the l1 combos are just badass.
Bosses. The bosses in bloodborne are not be best but still pretty good. Lady Maria, blood starved beast, kos , ludwig(ny favorite) father g, martyr logarius, gehrmann are top tier bosses. Mergos wet nurse, cleric beast, amygdala, ebrietas, Amelia( for me its amazing) is meh bosses. The one reborn can be good for somepeople but for me it’s bad. Living failures is meh and bad either. Other bosses suck ı agree.
The parrying in bloodborne is the best parrying system. In bloodborne you are fast so you don’t need shields. Game wants you to be aggressive so if you get hit you can get your health back.
If you are a good player you don’t have to farm for blood vials but I agree with you with that.
For me bloodborne is 10/10 and better than ant dark souls game. I don’t know how people can think like you. Like the problem is not yours. You can like or hate its your opinion but ı can’t think of that you know.
Oh my got ı forgot shadows of yharnam. It can be forgettable but it is good boss. Like really good boss. Its pretty good.
I like the interconnectivity, yes. I think complex interwoven maps are a great asset to a game. But to say that they're not in later entries is to deny reality. Elden Ring has it the least in the base game, true. But they do exist. And giving checkpoints through a level is not a bad thing. That'd be like complaining about the midway bonfire in Blighttown. And teleporting around is not a bad thing, it allows you to leave, do a thing you need to, and come back so that you can continue without losing any progress. No problem there.
I always though ds1 was only built that way b/c of limitations......
elden ring totally did that. the layout of ER it´s majestic.
This and the tail mechanics. In DS1, if it had a tail.. odds are it dropped some kind of weapon. Man, I miss that.
Yeah I loved that too, such a great feature. You have to have that little bit of extra mastery over the bosses. Kalameet for an example.
@haku_haku_haku I tried Kalameet but he/she moves so fast! 😁
The "pointless" shortcuts in DS2 are put there for No Bonfire Runs. You get a special reward for doing so and they designed the world with that in mind. Try one and your opinion may change
ヽ(≧∀≦)ﾉ
That’s why I love DS1 more thsn any other From game. You don’t get the joy of fast travel until you are a hardened warrior of the game because of what you have to do to earn your fast travel privileges. That’s how it should be. Given an easier option when you no longer need it 💪
EXACTLY!!! Played all souls like games basically and yeah DS1 still the best cause of this. Also The Surge was good on it. I like many Souls-like games but DS1 its just what u talking about that makes it an actual all time Masterpiece. Btw didnt even like much(or completed) Elder Ring for this reason more or less
elden ring is still an amazing game
I will take better . more difficult and complex bosses , less runbacks to bosses , more weapon/build variety , better character combat/ movement with no jank over this any day .
DS1 is really the outlier. All the other games have some form of warping and mostly linear paths. I played DeS last and the degree to which sortcuts are important is greatly exaggerated imo, most of the bosses just have gaunlets leading up to them with no actual shortcuts to speak of and only a very small few actually have shortcuts. You can pick and choose when you do certain bosses while each path is mostly linear, which makes it more like DS2. Both BB and DS3 are almost entirely linear with a few side areas and maybe one or two places where you can choose which mandatory boss you fight next. Elden Ring being open world means it necessarily has to follow different rules, they could have cut down on the bonfires and prevented warping in Legacy Dungeons (which I would welcome) but being open world and as large as it is not being able to warp until say Leyndell would make it either very tedious or you'd have to have other sacrifices made elsewhere. Also the smaller caves, catacombs and Hero's Graves do prevent warping and induce that sense of fear you talk about. I love what DS1 did with the world design and I'd love them to take another crack at it but really it's the only time they've ever actually tried it. Their levels are still fun to navigate and have interesting and cool secrets that reward exploration but I would like that to tie into the actual completion of the level.
don't talk about logic with fromsoftsexuals they'll get scared away
dark souls 1 also had some of the worst level design and no one talks about demon souls for a reason that entire game is just "gimick souls"
DS1 has the best level design....for about one third of the game then you get into Bull **** the stage design