BUYING A ROBINSON HELICOPTER EXPLAINED
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- Опубліковано 17 лип 2024
- In this video I break down for you the costs of buying a Robinson Helicopter. I explain the 12 year and 2200 hour overhaul structure. We look at some real life examples of helicopters that are for sale and whether or not they are a good price to buy.
If you would like more info about where I got my pricing etc. from Robinson you can check out these links:
robinsonheli.com/wp-content/u...
robinsonheli.com/wp-content/u...
robinsonheli.com/
If you are interested in the flight training we offer you can visit our website:
www.bchelicopters.com/
You should follow us on the socials:
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Great video as usual. Keep cranking out the content.
Wow! Thank you so much. This is absolutely amazing in understanding all of metrics which is something I have been trying to sort out for awhile now. As always your videos are just the best!
Thank you so much for sharing your great knowledge about theese topics! This is a really helpful guide ;)
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
Fascinating, thanks for creating this video!
Great video thanks Mischa! Would also love to see a Cabri G2 Video!
Very good analysis and very practical and useful!
awesome video Micha. Well done sir. Keep safe sir
Very informative! Great explanation, thanks.
Great vid! Very useful, thank you
very well explained , ill look forwards to your hourly costs break down video too.
Great job in breaking this out, very good way to show purchase cost- it would be interesting to add the maintenance cost per year for overall costs
Hey, just want to say thanks for putting up such great content. I'm in the lower mainland and will have to come do an intro and talk about training when the world feels a bit more sane. :)
Few things to consider when researching used R44’s is ADS-B compliance and Lycoming SB 569. In particular compliance with lycoming’s service bulletin on crankshafts will be costly unless you send the engine to Lycoming for overhaul. That alone can be used to haggle the price down if the engine is affected by the S.B. Aside from that the video is very informative and on point when it comes to considering the purchase of a used R44.
I am not planning to buy a helicopter but this video is very very interesting. Thank you to shed the light.
Excellent explanation of the economics of helicopters !
Excellent video!
Fascinating. This is extremely illuminating.
Great info video Mischa. I can see Corona though changing the R44 pricing within the next 6 months, will be some real bargains around. Exactly why I sold my R44, was not utilising the hours and calendar was getting away from me, perfect machine for a commercial operator.
We done. Great video. Properly done
You might want to explain how you drafted the spreadsheet
Thank you
It is very interesting.
I will check your data.
The flight school I went to has an R22 with 11,000+ hours total time on it. It's been maintained very well.
Great video Mischa and good insight. Really need to operate the aircraft within a company so you can take a depreciation charge against it as the cost of these is phenomenal compared to other aircraft especially if you factor in 'saving' for the overhaul.
Thank you for this video definitely had some a-ha moments.
That’s a really good price breakdown Micha. Very much on point for a Raven II.
A good field OH will run you approximately $230k.
I would love to see a video like this on the Cabri, or maybe even your thoughts on experimentals to own privately like the Rotorway a600 or the Safari 400 or 500. Also I would LOVE to hear your opinion on the Mosquito, is it a flying casket?
Excellent explanation of the pricing of the R-44. I own and fly an Aviat Husky, which I thoroughly enjoy. I think the other place to buy & sell aircraft is Trade-A-Plane, which in my experience is as good as Controller.
great vid
Great info
Want to join your flight training for a Commercial license in the near future, would be a dream come true!!!! Love your videos, keep them coming!!!!
Hey Mischa, another great video. This is not particularly important, just a note from someone who does freelance video for a living. For these indoor videos to camera you're shooting during shelter in place, try setting the white balance on your camera to manual and setting it to likely 3200k (tungsten) for this lighting setup. It will make your skin look a lot less orange. And since you're not moving around, it shouldn't change so you shouldn't need auto. Just a thought!
Great Video. Loved it. Does the R22 follow the same basic scheme execpt lower $ values.
The previous fans have really covered the practical benefit of your presentation. I just want to say that the only time I have heard such a good analysis was from my friends in the business. A civilian would never think of all that you provided in minutes. As always, Thanks again.
Hey Sir Micha, appreciate you talking absolut Epic this list for me a very very much understanding about the price from a shopper in generally !
This is absolut the same in car selling in Germany ! I realy thankyou very much from Germany I always ask me way this shoppers so expensive ? I also gave the Video to my friend in Colorado, but he is a Robinson hater just not to well understand all about helicopters jet and way so much crash ? You did a awesome job with your world tour !
I have traind in a Bell 47 in US and like the R 22 a very nice shopper and compact !
GREAT!!! PLEASE do same for R66.
Hello There I love this video and find it very helpful. I've been watching your videos and searing the ones i haven't watched yet of a breakdown like this for an R66. If I missed it can you direct me to it of if there isn't one can you do one for a R66 as I'm in the early stages of trying to figure out my options on buying an R66 for tours plus a charter service from the airport to lake front homes. Thanks for the help
Thanks Mischa, I have been looking for an in-depth analysis of buying an R44 like this and there is nothing out there so this is gold!
So, if I am showing a large profit on my LLC and accountant says sink this into a $90,000 12 year old or 2100 hour R44 company helicopter that either needs an entire overhaul do you have a spreadsheet of the new values?
Or, if I buy or finance one of the first examples that has lots of hours on the table and I do a leaseback to a flying school, how much does this bring my annual operating costs down as an approximate %? And what % per hour costs if I am considering hour building to get a commercial license?
I remember before you mentioned a couple of your students did this and bought an R44 yo do theit hour building in to keep their hour costs down versus hiring a flying school r44.
One last question is what finance options are typically available in terms of loan to value? Kind of like a house, not everyone buys these cash and financing is the only way
Can't wait for the next R44 owner video. Thank you!
Im a AME R class Plus
Good info
VT
Hi , Could U do the Cabri G2 Costs ??
?
I'm wanting a Robbie66Turbo but waiting till MFS2020 comes out at the end of the year....the MD500 for sure!
Totally off-topic but was watching a past vid with you and Sam on steep confined landing and you had him open the door and look out at the tail to see if it was positioned as he pictured it on the recon. My question: almost every modern car has a backup camera now. Have any helicopter manufacturers adopted this tech yet? Seems like tail position and it being clear is so critical and would be a fairly low-cost safety feature. Love the channel, trying to figure out a way to convince my wife I can be gone for 4 months to come up and work on a PPL!
A controller.com tire kicker only, but will look at the listings differently now, thanks for your insight.
Regards from False Creek :)
I doubt I'll ever be a legit helicopter owner,more like a Mesquito XET at best, but I found your video very informative and when I win the lottery,and can afford a legit one, I can now have an idea of prices and the value behind them. Might even hire you to train me!!!
Hi, Could you please make a video on AS350 B3 ownership cost & approx per hour cost?
Next video, how much to own a cabri g2 or R22 helicopter. The maintenance and other costs of owning. For inspiration purposes 🙏
Thank You
According to the type certificate information for the R44 the only components with a calendar life limit are the main and tail rotor blades. Everything else you can fly the full flight time limit no matter how long it takes you. Also in many actual instances of use unexpected damage or failure does occur and components get replaced out of sequence. I wish determining helicopter value was as simple as you present it here. The manufacturer recommends more maintenance than is required by the FAA, that any service center will be more than happy to sell you. This is a good explanation for someone to understand the concept, but for anyone considering making a purchase please consult an expert.
keen to see what happens to prices once this pandemic is over; guessing it'll be a buyers market for a while....
As it might be for just about any comotidy product...
Good info but what do you have to say about helicopter like the Ranabot & the Cicare helicopters?
Very informative video. How can you determine the hours on a helicopter besides the log book?
In reality the question is the other way round. How can you confirm the Hobbs meter hasn't been tempered with (incl legitimate replacement with a new Hobbs meter that invariably would show zero when installed)?
Against that question the answer is: Carefully check the aircraft flight folio (what you call "log book"), and maintenance log books. These will also give you answers other relevant questions, besides TTSN. Namely, cycles and prolonged periods of non-use.
Sounds complicated? Well, it is.
Thanks! What does the $290,000 “overhaul” get you?
Bell 505 vs R66 pricing would be a great video idea
Do other aircraft like a JetRanger/AStar have the same time depreciation on parts? Like if you are not flying an aircraft, do you still need to replace parts over time? I guess tubes/bladders have to be replaced even when you are not flying, but what about metal/other parts?
Hey mr.yellow. Thanks for your great videos. I’ve asked this question before but can you release any controls on a helicopter while flying to relax or to stretch at all.
You can set the friction on the collective and fly with your left hand on the cyclic but always be ready in just in case!
Excellent video thanks! (potential owner)
Cabri Cost/value video similar to this one?
Great information! Does anyone have a similar spread sheet for AW109? Of course much more complex with P&W turbine vs Tacoma
aircraftbluebook.com
"For over 65 years, Aircraft Bluebook has been the industry choice for complete and reliable aircraft valuation data." That costs money, but if you consider spending that kind of money on a AW109 you need all advise that money can buy.
From an owner: good discussion on what your hull is worth. But...the REAL discussion is about operating costs. When you do "Part 2--Operating Costs", for US owners be sure to explain how that differs for Part 91 and Part 135 operators. Consider that your discussion is really for the true private owner, not a pro who should already know this (but so many don't). For US based, private, Part 91 owner/operators, be sure to cover the path of a 12 year inspection vs. 12 year overhaul and how the engine can continue to operate past 12 years on-condition up to 2200 hours. Those distinctions can make it or break it for that sort of operator. Also remind people that they need to create an escrow account and be charging themselves back for flying or they are going to join the "I posted my run-out on controller.com" club. Do that and owning a Robinson is no different than owning any other helicopter, i.e. Robinsons should not be "throw away helicopters". Explain how amortizing insurance per flying hour is their biggest expense. Thanks!
Yes. I am also very interested in these questions✌️
hi do you know r44 helicopter how much main rotor and tail rotor rpm, take up
I saw one flying over my neighborhood, it had a yellow box attachment on just one skid. Anyone know what that is?
Your opinion on coaxials
The only thing that is calendar time 12 years is blades in the USA as long as you are part 91 135 requires the 12 inspection
What if you buy a Bell 206 year 1990 , is it already rebuilt ?
What would that scenario be like for a Schweizer 300C ? I can't see why the Robinson would be so expensive, you had better have a lot of work lined up at that kinda money just saying. Thanks for the video M
Hi - I arrange financing for clients buying Robinson helicopters here in UK. I’m wondering if the depreciation you are using is always a straight line from year 1 to 12?
Robinson's model seems to be more or less based on the "Power by the Hour" maintenance contracts widely used in the airline industry for components, with a fixed hourly cost guarantee over a Line Replaceable Unit's operating life by having that standard all-in fixed overhaul interval that lets airlines precisely forecast their costs, although it only really works with consistent high utilization. I was in the Regional Airline business for many years and the same problem you described, re: accelerated calendar depreciation, impacts Corporate versions of Regional airliners, where the utilization is only 300-400 hrs/yr for a Challenger 850 (basically a CRJ200 with a corporate interior), vs 2500 hrs for a regular CRJ200 in its flogged-like-a-mule Regional life. So Challenger 850s, which mechanically identical and are therefore built like tanks from a corporate perspective, were getting really hammered by calendar depreciation when operated under the normal CRJ200 Maintenance Program, until Bombardier finally certified and introduced a Low Utilization Maintenance Program that extended the calendar intervals for aircraft operated less than some threshold hrs/yr (I forget the actual number). It's too bad Robinson can't, or doesn't want to, develop and certify a Low Utilization overhaul scheme for their helicopters which would really help with residual values.
> "It's too bad Robinson can't, or doesn't want to, develop and certify a Low Utilization overhaul scheme for their helicopters which would really help with residual values."
John, it is called the "12-Year Inspection". I agree however that there are too many, high cost items that actually need to be replaced at 12 years regardless of utilisation. The Robinson approach makes it one of the most reliable helicopters though.
@@TimToussaint What I mean is the 12 Year overhaul should be extended to say 15-20 years for low hours machines that meet certain requirements (not just left parked without being touched), with only key calendar sensitive items needing to be replaced on I might call a "mid-life-refresh" and could be done in the field. LUMP programs on jets make this sort of allowance for items that aren't that time sensitive, although admittedly you are dealing with a massive variety of different intervals. Robinson's approach is attractive in making wear-and-tear depreciation a uniform fixed hourly cost that can reliably be factored into hourly operating rates, but they would get more sales to low use individuals without that 12 year hard limit.
This was vert informative, thanks.
The question on my mind is why would I rather go for the R66 than the R44? Why I'm asking is because of these type of matrix's that I didn't know about. How would a matrix like this look for the R66? Did Robinson follow the same principle as far as overhaul and maintenance goes with the R66? Besides more space, what other benefits would the 66 offer and how would these benefits support the price premium? Lots of questions in this I know, but you most probably have gone through this thought process before and can help me out with this...
Yes, the R66 follows the same principle. However, expect the hourly cost to be at least twice as high as for a R44.
I was considering buying a EC130 T2. Any thoughts?
7 times as expensive as an R44 to buy and run. Go for it. It is the perfect family helicopter. Unless you can afford a proper twin... But that doubles the price again.
Years and cost should be separate from hours and cost. You could then use the equation from a graph of both of those to input the year, or hours as the variable in whatever equation excel spit out. Using that formula in another cell, average the output (price) from year and hours for a better estimate on what the pricing should be. Of course this doesn't account for instrumentation or "upgrades."
If you bought a 12 year old or 2200 hour helicopter and paid for the full overhaul as per requirement, will the helicopters worth/value thereafter be that of a brand new helicopter?
How about old helicopters like Agusta westland from 80s or maybe an eurocopter from 2000 do they need extended overhauling or something to do in order to be reliable.
Most definitely they do. Your question could be: Do those also have calendar items? Here the answer is: Some do. The devil is in the detail.
Is there a place we could get our hands on this list ?
military helicopter pilot here. This video convinced me to go the fixed wing route for personal ownership 🤣
So, if you plan on flying: old but with small hours. Or if you want to own it and use it sporadically: new, but with high hours. Makes sence ;)
Could you talk about the after 2200/12y overhaul selling price?
Leo Brougher: $330k for RI and $360k + on RII.
Price increases with avionics and options
Nice, thanks! Reminds me of my most recent video, on my own channel 👍🏻 That episode is about tips on buying used aircraft. Not specifically on helicopters, but there are some common things, I think?
My question is how do you know hours logged are actual hours. I know it's hard to believe but some people aren't honest.
Pricey machines that’s for sure!
I would love to be a owner but I’m not sure that I’d ever have the time to fly the hours it needs to make sense of a purchase
You can lease it out to a flight school and cover some cost and you could include the maintenance.
@@johnwhodat8135 naaaa. if i were to buy one i'd check be able to afford to have it sitting around. no flight schools here that would make it worthwhile, plus i dont like sharing
people keep telling me that the abandoned robinson r22 i got it's not worth fixing it. but if we consider the price of buying a used one and overhaul-ing it, and that i have a free robinson r22 which i didn't pay even if it gets to the price range of 250.000$ i think i we are good. (if i had the money i would have go for a gabri g2 for sure)
Do you recommend buying or Leasing for an average person flying average amount of iron roof per year
Tom William most lessors want to see 350 hours per year utilization which could be tough for the private guy.
However, that may change for a while due to the “corona” effect
Would a 12-year-old, overhauled R44 be worth what you've spent on it ($100,000+$290,000=$390,000)?
DriftFish yes, if not a little more.
Where are you guys located in Canada? I couldn't find and address anyplace on your website.
Abbotsford Airport
Was looking at an MD500D, think I'll give it 18 - 24 months!
How would be luck the list from a Hughes 500 C - ?
MD 500-D = Great 🚁‼️
The only issue is you're actually off by a year on your table. You count year 1 as 0 hours and therefore are only showing hours accumulated over 11 years.
Good video. I am an AME and know about components timing out because of calendar time, flight hours or cycles. I used to work on Jet Rangers and 15 years ago, they would charge $1200/hour if someone wanted to charter it. Bell 205’s were twice the cost. I didn’t know Robinson made their maintenance schedule so simple. Good idea. It makes tracking components so simple. I know you fly Cabri aircraft. Is the maintenance low and less cost on those? Thanks
How was the depreciation value calculated (the middle column value on your spreadsheet)... is that a given Robinson value ?
How about Cabri costs too :)
Looks to me, without actually checking, to be linear.
@@TheOwenMajor I agree... but where do the numbers come from; Pilot Yellow, Robinson...?
@@johnvaleanbaily4859 He did say, he views the value of a end of life R44 to be 100,000 based on what he has seen.
Depreciation is a highly subjective matter, there is no right answer.
@@TheOwenMajor Got it - thanks
Is it the same deal with the R66?
Yes, just at least 2 times more expensive to buy and operate.
How much cost would gas add in?? If you were to fly 200 hrs a year
If you're paying $5/gal, it burns 15-17gal/hr. so on the LOW end you're looking at about $75/hr in just fuel. Or $15,000 for 200 hours.
@@logono7 Can you explain what is "just" fuel? Thanks!
@@FinsaneLorist Literally that. The 100LL you have to buy to power the engine. Not including oil inspections etc.
@@logono7 thanks!
@@FinsaneLorist Yup remember it is a piston machine so you also need to have checks done every 50hrs by a certified maintenance organisation.
What about r66 is it same as r44 or is it like jet ranger
GIYF
Weird I bought my Baron in CAD no USD weird.
A plane runs 30 years . Why the helicopter parts wear so quick?
How did you produce that depreciation chart?
ok
easy heli to keep track of components on too,, Next due? everything... biggest worry on a private machine is if they know how to disconnect the hobbs meter seen it...... Turbines is guys throwing gas and diesel or heating oil in them to save a buck. and you dont know till you look at the liner in the engine ..and turbines need runs to keep the FCU and engine lubbed, and that has to go in the books. any C20 engined machines need compressor disassembly at the 300 hr if they are near salt air. and compressor washes if they see salt water nearby, and get ready if you ever have to take a gearbox etc thats on condition in, All the due next visit things will cost ya,, and if your leasing one especially as your eating it after the normal 100Hrs and the lessor pay.. Component overalls take only half the time to do vs what they bill... and there is are cheaper places than the top picks too.because of it..
When the prices comes down about x10 times it will be expensive but something thats remotley possible to buy
Take into account the somewhat limited helicopter market, not everyone wants/needs one like a car. IF you seriously need one and can afford one, this vid will illustrate cost/ownership values. Seasonality, product (think Boeing right now), flight restrictions (can't fly as much during Covid-19), war-we still have war with other carbon Based Life forms.
Why are all aircraft sold in USD regardless of geography?
sibaar
What would you rather buy an aircraft with? Indian Rupees? Wouldn‘t that be fun to compare prices between Rupees, Euros, RMB, british Pounds and maybe 20 other currencies? Have fun!
@@berndheiden7630 That's not the point of the question. Just curious why it's globally USD.
I will never be able to buy (mind you, two years ago I never thought I would be able to fly...) and I can only quote a great sage, ‘if it flies or floats, rent don’t buy’. He said another thing, but I forget what.
if it flies, floats or fucks, rent don't buy
@@karman000 I guess the bit of irony in Steeyuv's forgetfulness escaped you.
And yet people still get married, or live in committed relationships. There must be an intangible benefit to knowing who your are dealing with...
Just one comment, the plural of aircraft is aircraft🙂