TF2 is considered the best because it wasn't ever a fully defined Hero Shooter, and instead of adding more Mercenaries to the roster that'd likely dampen other characters, they added more weapons for the nine Mercs to fight with, keeping them unique and fresh, where enough variety has allowed Subclasses to exist since 2009.
That’s also another reason why the Garden Warfare duology was so good - they just added variants, with there only being 8 classes as of GW2 (counting the secret characters). It helped make the game less stale without just letting any characters fall by the wayside. I agree that TF2’s system is better - the only character with proper, commonly used subclasses outside of variants is Scientist - but GW2 definitely comes close.
Tf2 is a class base shooter due to focusing on alternate play style by allowing for different loadouts rather than adding new characters that always remain the same. Hero shooters being coined by games like overwatch have their characters remain the same at all times while having ultimate abilities, in truth they are different and should be treated as such
Valve the type of developer to make a hero shooter before the term hero shooter even existed, make it the best one, then make a second hero shooter when everyone hates the genre and somehow it’s a success anyway
That's because it's not accurate to describe deadlock as a hero shooter. It's a fully fledged MOBA with all the trademarks of the genre that's played through the lens of a shooter rather than more traditional RTS derived controls.
Well, they slowly banded together in that unfinished comic where Mann Co was taken over by Gray Mann, and the mercenaries were fired. Fast forward to Vs. Saxton Hale, where Hale tries to take back his company, but has to fight rather convincing, off-sounding fakes of his own mercenaries before he can get to Gray Mann.
I would say GW2 solves a lot of the hero shooter problems. There are LOADS of characters (121) but the others don't get dampened down because instead of adding characters, there's variants, which is the main class but with a small change to completely change how you play it. If you weren't counting variants there'd only be 16 characters which is enough to make them feel special. Another aspect of variants is their mixed roles, e.g sunflower is a healer character but if you're using the metal petal version of her she goes from healer, to a supportive tank. There's mixes of agile and tank, support and assault, or melee and healer. This aspect makes there be a ton of characters but still having a lot of personality.
@@sarahhutchinson6325 I just want to add to that and say progression and stuff is what the Garden warfare games also do well. Leveling up variants, and playing matches to get coins to get more variants was a great feedback loop. I was gonna say "great AND honest" but idk of that's the best word for it. Just... playing to have fun and get characters to have more fun; that's it. Not for leveling up in a battlepass, or doing things you don't want to for weapon skins or other cosmetics. Even if you do play a variant you're not jiving with, you could always put them on the backburner or look up a unique quirk they had, because they're characters with mechanics, not just visual content. Skins are cool, but they aren't mechanically interesting. They don't add to the fun of the game (for me at least). That's pretty much all that I have to say, but I'll keep going because I like writing about this. Read if you want. On this thought, it gets me thinking about other things, like trophies. Some people will refuse to play, or be disappointed with a game when it doesn't have trophies. I guess that's fine, but one would think you're here to first experience and have fun with a game, then other rewards come later (skins, trophies). Playing for fun, playing for mechanics and to level up the interesting variants (and even if they weren't, it was still exciting to play one for the first time. I've been playing GW2 for a few years now and STILL have variants and while classes I haven't touched) feels more honest. TF2 (haven't played) also does this well, and who knows, maybe OW2 as well, I didn't get that into it. But what I did see (or feel) when I played it was a lack of motivation to keep playing, as in, no feedback loop like in GW2. GW2 (and TF2 with it's weapons) allow you to not only pick a class you want, but then go further and pick a option in that class for more expression and such. Something that really fits with your playstyle. Other hero shooters I find are too limiting, even with their plentiful classes. I like the overlap and goofiness that could sometimes happen, like with something like Roadie Z. "You like engineers and their ability kit? Have that but know he's melee only." That freedom, or variety, or whatever you want to call it is a complete 10/10 for me.
Nobody talks about those games cause PvZ is for kids (I played PvZ 2 for a week and got bored) but you might have found where concord got their idea for variants from and, no surprise, they also butchered it.
I personally never liked the term "Hero Shooter", not because of the past vendetta from TF2 to OW, but because the term "Hero" is too broad of a word to accurately tell or describe the genre, while yes "Class-Base Shooter" wouldn't exactly be the most accurate when the so called "Classes" aren't just generic vessels and instead established stand alone characters, it makes the most sense at a gameplay perspective considering that the "Class" aspect is meant to represent your designated role as that character
@@marfit77 well then that would imply that the focus on the genre is the fact that the game features playable characters, not so much the role or function said character provides, otherwise games like Left 4 Dead would be placed next to games like TF2, OW, Apex, or Valorant simply because L4D features 4 playable characters, despite the fact that they provide no additional abilities or attributes to distinct from each other
@@ignitedradium1624 but hero already does just that mentioning the "hero" without talking about kit or function the hero provides or what differentiates the "hero" but I do agree that character makes them feel too generic how about we follow LoL's steps and call them Champion based shooter "champion" is far less generic and makes all of the characters sound like unique notable people without making them sound like they have to be morally just or good.
When people make whitelists of items that are allowed in order to play the game competitively (which all modern hero shooters aim for), you can't realistically think the game's balanced.
@@georgthesecond I feel like this should be self explanatory, but: tf2 is not a modern shooter. the primary format of tf2 is a casual 12v12 (or 16v16) no limits experience, as the game has had since launch in 2007. this is drastically different from the competitive formats which tf2 is played in. all of tf2's items cannot all be balanced in both the competitive and the casual environment. (eg the base jumper, which is still broken in a competitive environment, even with only one deploy). so the balance conversation of tf2 should probably focus on the main game mode that's been supported for 15+ years, in which case there are maybe 3? problematic items, out of a total 150+. sounds pretty balanced 😃
Which is why TF2 is actually called a Class Shooter, the original name of the genre before it got hijacked by copycats who wanted to create the unnecessary and stupid name of "hero" shooter, which was a terrible idea because not all characters are classified as heroes or morally good at all and is a false name that sets up unnecessary complications that do not make any logical sense.
Garden warfare was also peak because it stuck to a rigid cast and let you cutomize the moves rather than have 5 characters who are slight variations of each other, overwatch
9:55 Deadlock being a moba first, hero shooter second really helped with it's immense success (127k players in just a CLOSED ALPHA), makes it so players from Dota 2, SMITE and LoL can acclimate fairly quickly to the gameplay loop and climb to the high MMRs while also ensuring the OW/Apex/TF2/etc. players don't have their shooting skills go to waste and have it carry them while they learn & master the MOBA mechanics in the low MMR lobbies I've been seeing a ton of "I came from *insert popular or nostalgic moba slash hero shooter here* and found Deadlock really fun & refreshing, I'm addicted to it now" posts (or something along those lines) on twitter and reddit, it's genuinely surprising to me how popular & liked this game become after everyone (including me) hated on it when it was first leaked
I refuse to live in a world where TF2 is called a "Hero Shooter" and not a "War-Themed Hat Simulator". You can rip out my nuts, peel out my eyeballs, tear out my heart like a cheesy 80's love song, but you will NEVER take away my selfish spirit!
tbh, i can see why people are annoyed by TF2 being called a hero shooter, when it puts them into the same ballpark as some universally hated games. And just the fact that genre definition randomly changing is just annoying. actually, everyone in general is frustrated with game genres. I feel like a very major issue with Hero(i guess) shooters, is that their original vibe nearly always gets washed out, and gets turned into something else entirely. creating a weird polarizing cast with some random 80's punk, and then a cowboy, an alien pink puppy, and an evil british man all in one game.
Agreed, but it is what it is, and if most casual players consider TF2 a Hero Shooter, pushing up your glasses and arguing (as I've seen) is just silly. I totally get the annoyance, but it just is what it is.
@@P-Bean Got no issues with it but I've been playing TF since 1999 and have literally never seen a single player refer to it as a hero shooter. Curious to why you think the majority of players think this.
Yeah i think the overall hero shooter model is heavily tied to the monetization scheme those games have. By having a random XD roster that attacks by pressing Q to do le epic super lazor, and if you prime players to expect to be fine with dealing with stuff like being stunned for 9 seconds, you can basically add whatever you want to the game forever.
I’d actually consider the Splatoon games to fall under the umbrella of “class based” but not “hero” shooters. Yeah, there are like, 50+ unique weapons with kits attached to them, but when things are boiled down, there are 11 weapon classes, generally split among 4 play styles: Slayer, Skirmsher, Anchor, and Support. The lore for the game is made so that every player is effectively the same character, and every weapon in the game can really fall into one of three categories based on how they are fired. 1. Press shoot button, weapon shoots 2. Hold shoot button, weapon charges, release button, weapon shoots 3. Press shoot button, weapon shoots, hold shoot button, weapon does a different attack/function
Was just about to mention that yeh, it’s a really neat modern example of a more class / weapon based shoot that instead of sticking to specific characters just gives the player a ton of options on how to make their character feel unique.
For me it goes this way: Hero Shooter: Stuff like Overwatch, each character has their immutable items, abilities and stats which are more or less different from other characters, very little if no customization on the gameplay/stat side of each character; Class-based shooter: Each character has some degree of customization which is more or less unique to each of them regarding their stats and items', they usually don't have abilities or atleat they are common for all of them, customization can vary a lot game to game, think of stuff like TF2 with subclasses compared, for example, to a traditional Battlefield game; MOBA Shooter (?): There isn't much stuff here, Paragon (Predecessor), Smite and now Deadlock. THEY ARE MOBA GAMES but what would you call "Auto attacks" in a traditional MOBA game is replaced with a traditional shooting mechanic from a shooter game, moreover they usually feature a significant verticality just like a traditional shooter, customization is just like a MOBA game, which doesn't significantly change what you do (active items aside which are still basic compared to high-customizable Class-based like TF2) but instead improves and add stuff to what your character already does. About classes as "categories" (which TF2 also has since each of the 9 classes are divided into attack, defense and support) I don't think they have any meaningful meaning on gameplay, they just exist to tell at a glance what classes are better suited for what, or in Overwatch case it indicates a common passive such as healers healing themselves over time. However even in TF2 you have Demoman as a defense class, but if you swap the grenade launcher for a shield it becomes an attack class, or Scout which would be better suited as a Support class since it mostly flanks (just like Spy which is considered Support) but it's considered an attack class, at the same time Heavy is really important in an attack and yet it's considered a defense class, for this reason I don't think "classes" as categories mean something.
Yeah anybody who knows anything about tf2 knows that the class selection screen categories are super inaccurate. If you listen to the developer commentary they talk about how the classes are divided up into generalists and specialists which honestly makes way more sense. Soldier, demo, and medic are always useful, but spy and sniper are often very useless. However, spy and sniper can both do things that would otherwise be very difficult for a soldier or demo to do. I do disagree with you on how youre categorizing some of those classes though. stock demo is amazing at both offense and defense because hes the best character at shitting out damage which is amazing no matter what you are doing. He just has weaknesses in direct 1v1s. Scout really isnt a support class. He's the best 1v1er in the game and only soldier comes close in that regard. I just dont think it makes much sense to say that one of the best fragging classes is a support class.
@@capnfapn If we limit ourselves to TF2's categories (which as you said are really "inaccurate") what should Scout be considered though? Is he an attack class? I wouldn't say so because he doesn't do much in the frontline, unless we consider flanking an attack, but at this point even spy would be an attack class; Is he a defense class? No because he can't defend zones against the enemy team. Support is what think suits him best because in that category there are really unique characters which do everything and nothing: Sniper can defend and attack very well, but only if he keeps distances and has a team in front of him, he can't do anything alone; Same for Medic, he basically keeps the team alive and allow everyone else to keep doing what they need to do, but on his own he's pretty useless; Spy is probably a similar class in what they do: they both flank, take isolated targets, and master one specific thing: Spy takes out engie buildings and waste enemy Medic charges, Scout is the best at playing the objective because he pushes/captures at double speed and is the best for stealing the suitcase thanks to his movement speed. But since categories are inaccurate this argument could go on forever so I don't think that it makes sense going on since the foundations (TF2 categories) are flawed.
@@rayder3543 scout is a relatively difficult class that changes a lot as you get better at him. Newer scouts are completely reliant on flanking and catching players off guard, but once you get good at him it's totally viable to just attack people head on as long as you're not playing on an extremely chokey map like dustbowl. Scout is actually pretty damn good at defending. He's excellent at killing bombing soldiers and controlling high ground. The things that can be tough to deal with on scout like sentries and super spammy choke points are way less of an issue when you're defending. Scout is nowhere good at holding a choke as soldier or demo, but he can do a ton of work on areas like the first point of bad water where he has room to maneuver and height differences to take advantage of .
I feel like to me there is a difference between a class based shooter and a hero shooter and the main difference is that class based shooters are more focused on adding onto and increasing the depths of the classes. While hero based shooters are more focused on adding new characters and increasing the roster of heroes. Garden Warfare 2 is probably the game that has done the best job at balancing these two aspects as the way it added content was to add variants of classes to where the class itself was still fundamentally the same and still pursued the same goals as that class normally would. (Which to be fair for all classes in that is game is just to kill people as even the "support" classes like scientist and sunflower still hit like trucks), but could behave differently in how they would achieve those goals. In a way the variants system is a perfect blend of classes and heroes as its new characters go off the base of a class and the variants give variety to class in a way I haven't seen any other game try to replicate.
In this context, the base of a class would be the body type and abilities unique to each class whilst the variant is permitted to swap out the weapon to whatever they want. i.e., the engineer's slow firing grenade launcher weapon can be changed to a rapid fire assault rifle weapon with the mechanic, which is already a weapon archetype used by the footsoldier class who's also on the zombie team.
If garden warfare could be considered class shooter then tf2 is even more of a class shooter because the mercs have basically no abilities and thier gameplay is dictated by thier weapon
The way I've always looked at it is this: Hero Shooters have a large cast of characters, pretty much universally with abilities that have cooldowns that are separate from the shooting mechanics themselves. The way devs balance these games are by rearranging their stats, cooldowns, damage, etc. as well as by adding new characters to the game, increasing the size of it's roster Class Based Shooters have a relatively smaller cast of characters, usually without personal abilities on cooldowns though not always the case. The way devs balance these games are by almost universally changing the stats of specifically the guns themselves. Buffing/nerfing damage, reload speed, etc. and by adding more weapons as time goes on. TF2 to me is a definitive Class Based Shooter, similar in other games like Battlefield or even Insurgency: Sandstorm. I'd also put The Finals in here since you have a large variety of weapons to pick for each class, as well as having the ability to change your ability. Plus I don't think they'd add new classes, unless you go like... Super Light and Super Heavy. Games like Overwatch, Valve's new Deadlock, and recent game Concord are all Hero Shooters. The characters in those games have unique abilities and weapons, though you don't change those weapons and they add/will add more characters as time goes on.
It’s hilarious how the only hero shooters that are actually worth playing have basically consisted of the exact same 3 games for about 7 years now, and every title since then has half-assed the basic formula that makes the big three work and somehow “shockingly” almost never work.
Disagree with TF2 being a hero shooter. You are not playing as THE Scout, you are playing as A Scout, exactly because there's nothing stopping everyone on your team playing the same class as you. That restriction on playing as a character you want to is the defining difference to me, where they prioritise making each character "unique" across matches, you can only have one "hero"
This is the same for something like garden warfare where islts definitely a hero shooter because of the on demand abilities the characters have but no ones stopping anyone as playing the same one as you but since you have a kit that is designed around a paticular job tf2 is definitely a class shooter like battlefield or even something like squad
TF2 isn't a hero shooter... What the hell man, what's common with every single hero shooter is characters all have an unique ability or ultimate, not having that makes your game a class shooter. TF2 isn't a class shooter, and is in fact a hero shooter because... the Scout has a name and a personality? This is such an unbelievably goofy way to look at it
Yeah, I agree, TF2 is a class shooter! Hero shooters spew out characters with slightly different stats/abilities, while class shooters have different WEAPONS for the already established cast to use.
The biggest diference between class-based shooter vs a hero shooter i've noticed is that there can be multiple of the same class on a team but not heroes.
1:41 Regarding the text I think it's more in line with how the term "main hero" doesn't mean that the main character is a hero. Hero in this case is just synonymous with character
9:19 one of my favorite engineers is deep rock galatics engineer. In drg,the characters don't really have unique voicelines,but there is just an insane amount of them. However,it is the engineers gameplay that I would like to talk about. The engineer does of course,have a sentry. However,in this game you can get permant upgrades by selecting one from a row at a time from up to around 5 rows. The ones I'd like to talk about from engineer are the first and last for the sentry gun. The first allowe you to choose between 1 better sentry or two of the orginal sentry (that one also gives more ammo) the two normal ones does theoretically have better dps,but it takes more time to get set up and you run out of ammo much faster. (You have a limited amount of ammo each mission,but you can refill it by gathering nitra in the caves.) The upgraded one does have better stats and much better sustain, but you will be missing the second during a swarm sometimes. Both are perfectly viable. The last lets you choose between two systems. The defender system and the uhhh I forgot the name system. The defender system locks your sentry to a limited angle,but increases its damage and range. The seeker? System greatly increases range,and whatever you ping will be targeted by your sentry,but no damage increase. Also,you have to manually build your sentry,you are a dwarf,and it's a pve game.
Finally, a collab between Patrick and his iconic creator Patrick! So many opportunities for tomfoolery! This was a great video. It’s clear you put a lot of research into getting it done along with great editing and animation skills. Also I’m glad people are starting to see TF2 as the hero shooter it is because those characters are way to distinct to just be classes. My own definition of classes in video games is usually when all characters feel very similar to play but have differing guns. For example, if in CSGO you exclusively used snipers, congrats you created a sniper class for yourself (ik you can buy whatever guns you want but my point is with the customization you can essentially create your own classes.)
Huh, I always assumed that "Hero Shooter" meant a multiplayer FPS game where you play a unique character with a backstory, a recognisable apeparance, and so forth. Even back when Overwatch came out I thought of it as such.
You didn’t mention the upside of Hero Shooters literally add dozens of recognizable icons to the game’s atmosphere… making the companies a lot more money lmao. Hero shooters are to gaming what Ewoks were to Star Wars. It’s an action figure waiting to happen. It makes the game way more expanded for merchandise
TF2's approach of having classes without any special ínate abilities (some expection like double jump and invis) that are mainly seperated by the weapon choices available to them and more so relying to mechanical organic human input based abilities like rocket jumping etc is far superior, since its easier to balance and keeps the game from getting bloated with 40+ charachters that all more or less do the same things but a bit differently, simply adding new weapons that do the class roles jobs slightly differently keeps the game from being bloated and more readable overall while maintaining a better design cohesion consistency since youre always working with the original classes the game was designed around in all aspects
It's not like having a ton of different weapons instead of a ton of different heroes really reduces bloat though; having 7 different rocket launchers or 5 revolvers with slightly different stats can be confusing and overwhelming in its own right. I personally jumped to TF2 Classic because I think the lack of weapon bloat has led to better balance and pacing overall. It's a much more even push-and-pull compared to weapons like the Jarate, Mad Milk, Soldier banners, Crusader's Crossbow, Wrangler, etc. making team fights much more swingy and snowbally.
3:00 i was tabbed out and merely hearing the sound of hovering over the thingies immediately made my neurons light up like a fucking rave i played way too much titanfall 2
Here's my take on the classifications, more to do with how I see the designs of said games be created, rather than a definition created during the 'inception' of 'hero shooters' nor a retroactive definition post-hero shooters. And here we need a third classification: 'Character' shooter: *Hero shooter* is when you choose between playable characters whom have several unique mechanics, with only a little similarity between them (what mechanics they use). Here the most clear standout would be Overwatch, followed closely by TF2, although you can switch the places of these two as Overwatch's hero design has diluted, as expected of a game that has 30+ of them compared to the 9 of TF2. *Character shooters* are game where you too pick between playable characters whom have several unique mechanics, but the main mechanics that the player interacts with are the same across whichever character they pick. Here the most clear standout would be Valorant: Each character has unique gameplay flair, and hence team roles, but all have to be played in the same base counter-strike way, it's not like one character can only use shotguns, and another projectile weapons etc. Abilities are add-ons onto the base shooter game. *Class shooters* are hence what's left (largely), classes rarely if ever have unique mechanics other's can't use in some shape or form, and whilst weapons and equipment (design wise analogous to 'abilities') is restricted, most of these choices are mere number differences on the same base mechanic. Battlefield is an example of this. Whilst (classes depend on which title) Assault, Engineer, Support, and Recon have different primary weapons, they are all the same mechanic. All classes have the same sidearms, the same knives, the same grenades, infact all have some sort of explosive gear slot, and whilst yes, c4, rocket launchers, and grenade launchers, are not the same mechanic, they *are* all explosives, and more importantly, are FAR less 'unique' between each other than their 'Hero' and 'Character' equivalents.
Here's the thing I've never seen a hero shooter allow players to choose the same hero more than once per team in their main game modes. Despite each class being fleshed out as a separate person, you can stack 12 exactly same scouts with exact same weapons, something that is the case in class shooters like battlefield, but unheard of in hero shooters. +As a historian there is the case of presentism, you cannot call past people or things with modern ideas because they didn't exist at the time and therefore it takes away from past events by thinking that society is the same it ever was Thus TF2 is not and never will be a hero shooter
It's because in TF2, you're not playing as THE scout, you're playing as A scout, with different cosmetics, different weapons, maybe different hairstyles etc. Even though the base model is the same, the character is separate enough from the comic book series to be its own individual entity. Unlike the TF2 comics, ingame you never hear the classes call out other classes by their true legal birth names, only their class name, as there are multiple instances of that class all with different individual identities that make all the different "clones" unique, separate people.
TF2 is a Class Shooter, I am not gonna have any of this "Hero shooter" BS attached to it. Idk if anyone noticed, but none of the TF2 classes have abilities, they only have swappable weapon choices that fit their "class". Yea, they are characters with personalities, but that doesn't mean they are "hero" characters.
To me, a hero shooter is mainly defined by the customization, namely the lack thereof, and is one end of a sliding scale with normal shooters(COD) on the other end and class based shooters in the middle(battlefield).
thats just fact. really outstanding game, coming back to life too. EA is slowly seeing that this game outlives their every single modern day crap, playerbase somehow is bouncing back up on steam, true blessing.
@@mikadeksjur653 I wish it had a large thriving playerbase since I only owned it on console but no longer have mine and didn’t rebuy it and it would be hard to convince friends to buy it for the same reason
@@sonysdad4709 ye i convinced one but he doesnt wanna play anymore bcs he doesnt want to grind computer scientist. on consol grinding all legendaries as kid took me year. nowdays we cant afford that. we could afford buying tho and i even bought toxic brainz. but sadly u cant buy computer scientist even tho he would buy him instantly if he could.
TF2 was considered to be outside of the Hero Shooter because of the loadout system which most if not all Hero Shooters are missing which could drastically shift how each classes play. A gunslinger Engineer were pretty much considered offensive than a wrench Engineer, Demoknight is more of a pick compared to Demoman, etc. So yeah, you play as The Scout, but you could be The Scout with the Bonk, The Scout with the Backscatter, etc. (it only gets really compressed once you brought in competitive scene though since they got shit like META and weapon bans)
I think the only requirements for something to be a Hero Shooter is 1: to be a shooter and 2: have characters be design to do things no other character can do. Battlefield is a class shooter and not a hero shooter because every player can revive a downed teammate, but there's a class that revives them faster. While in OW there's only one character who can resurrect.
9:00 this is somewhat incorrect (at least the example given is). games like Dota and League have a "growing" player base because old veterans don't leave, or at least they do so at a snail's pace. The only problem is that new players also don't want to join or do so very slowly, either because of the complexity, or because it's league. I can attest that Dota drove me off because I didn't want to learn 50-some-odd characters, good shop items, and have to learn the minimap, laning, jungles, and other things just to play 'casually'. also imagine some poor sod picking up overwatch 2 in 2024, then instantly getting slept, pinned, shattered, sigma ulted, then killed and having to process what the hell just happened.
This is a good point, I think Dota and League also have a lot of new players getting pushed in by veteran friends. This is what happened to me before I stopped playing and is happening currently in my friend group.
@@P-Bean tbh valve is trying to fix that with deadlock its either to ease yourself into dota2 or to remain into deadlock bcs its the only moba you can play
I never knew the term "Hero shooter" was coined by the battle born devs. I always just thoughtit was something overwatch fans came up with since the characters are called heroes in that game. Do you think you could link me to where you've read or heard this so i can look more into it myself?
Sure! It was actually coined in mid 2014 (not 2015, oops) at the announce of Battleborn, a few months before Overwatch was even announced later in 2014, you can check out the reveal trailer here ua-cam.com/video/J3pgQc17JB0/v-deo.html here's a few articles from around the time talking about it www.pcgamer.com/battleborn-gearboxs-triple-a-hero-shooter-promises-fps-gunplay-with-moba-like-strategy/ www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2014/09/18/battleborn-preview/15767239/
I always found it weird that we abandoned the 'class based shooter' label, because a major difference between tf2 (the best/most prominent class shooter) and overwatch (the best/most prominent hero shooter) is that tf2 let's you mechanically customize your class with different loadouts while overwatch didn't. In my head, we should keep both labels and have 'hero' refer to completely pre-built and uncustomizable packages, and 'class' refer to unique characters/mechanics that can then be customized by the player.
Perhaps building down with a core team, works better than building out. If need be, you can always do the alternate sex method, where you design the opposite sex for each character. To where they don’t have to be the same character, just a different character doing the same job with the same weapons that you can put many of the same cosmetics on for that class. Maybe I just like the idea of valve implementing the female Merc designs for each class to flesh out the world a bit in game. Regardless, I still think working on a core class and building down each of the core you set up is probably a good idea for shooters. You tweak the weapon and it’s proficiencies/abilities to the charter’s role/abilities, rather than tweaking all characters for the one weapon or the one weapon for all the characters. The medigun is only applied to a single character, the types of mediugun and their abilities are limited or excel only based on one character. The spy’s knifes are very powerful but the draw back of it is the spy’s speed and reach with the attack. Which plays off his ability of deception to get close and make up for not getting mowed down. The player has several methods of chance to understand if it is a spy or not, so it doesn’t feel cheap if the spy stabs you. Then you have the multi class items, such as some of the shot guns. What works well with the shot gun is that it’s only a primary on the class that could use it the most between the 3, the engineer. For the other two classes Heavy and Soldier, they have different primaries which are better. They are more powerful and long range. They don’t really use or have a need for the shotgun. Some people still use it, such as soldiers who may not want the splash damage that could end them with close enemies, or Heavies who may be slowed down or run out of ammo for their mini gun. For engineer, who based on his abilities usually fights in a closer range, the shot gun is the perfect weapon. While the scout uses a different form of shot gun, those are based around his speed and mobility. But I digress, hopefully that was enough to convey my idea across.
I mean on my case TF2 being called a hero shooter didn't suit right because I always considered the mercs to be morally grey, their characters' impact is that they're insane contracted killers in the game, so I wouldn't call that heroic. However the MvM mode did seem to be having quite a heroic vibe as the robots would be the threat for the players. And I didn't know how to feel about how in one of the comics the mercs also got called heroes as a small bit because I wouldn't call them that at the moment. So it's kind of a strange case where instead of being in one spot, it constantly changes to the other side. That aside, good video! I like how all of it is structured! Might consider checking out the channel some more!
What we need to disrupt the genre is a melee based hero game all about completely nameless cave people in prehistoric earth mauling each other over food and riding dinosaurs into battle. It's basically the opposite of the average hero shooter these days and yet I feel like everyone would vibe with it
With a theme like that, you could apply it to any pre-modern era of history, or make up your own world where melee is the choice form of combat (regardless of technological advancement).
Great video. I noticed in this video and in a few of your previous ones you mention Hunt: Showdown (now 1896). Have you ever thought of doing a video on extraction shooters and how the differ/fit in to the "Battle Royale" genre? I personally feel like they fix a lot of the complaints people have with battle royale games, but they also bring with them some of their own problems. Just an idea, great job with this video.
maybe its just becasue most of my time playing competetive online video games was on overwatch and league of legends, but i love hero shooters please game companies keep producing more hereo shooter slop
The reason TF2 is the best Hero shooter is because simply, it isn't. Or at least not fully. And I mean this in both gameplay and presentation. And it all meets right in the middle. InLike a lot of hero shooters, teamwork does matter, but not to the extent of a hero shooter, one good player can easily carry pubs. And well there are things like items with cooldowns that might be a gameplay stand-in for ults, you don't have to play with those, there is nothing stopping you from just grabbing more gun, and cleaning house. And well most hero shooters expand like a wide puddle, TF2 builds deep with the amount of ways to customize a class. In the presentation department, it is really similar as well. True the TF2 cast has more depth to them than, like, the entirety of the League of Legends cast. That doesn't mean they are fully heroes either. The mercs are equally generic as they are iconic. They often have multiple interpretations. Heavy in the early TF2 is a Brute who lives for combat, in the comics he's a reserved intellectual, and in GMOD he's a crybaby idiot. And all them work, because that's how open ended the Mercs are. They can be inserted into any scene, serious or comedic, and still work. And that includes self inserts. You see a dime-a-dozen UA-camrs use their favorite loadout slot as their channel headpiece. Why? Because of easy it is to insert yourself. into a TF2 character. When you pick a skin in League, you don't really attach yourself to the character, you are still playing a LoL character. But with a TF2 character, their cosmetics and weapons are so customizable that you can't help but put a bit of yourself into it. They become your interpretations of the classes. tl;dr TF2 good all other games bad
If the gunplay is defined and shaped by the heroes themselves and the gameplay vastly varies based on the hero, its a hero shooter. TF2, OW, Paladins ETC are all playing distinctly different depends on the class/hero you selected. History doesnt matter, language changes to fit the needs of its users. Since the definition is barely 10 years old its too soon to be particular about it. Accept that TF2 is a hero shooter even if it wasnt called that way initially. If the gunplay is defined by the gun/kit you are using, its a class shooter, or just a shooter with classes, depending on how distinct the classes are. Apex you can play as whomever but if you pick up a rifle it plays exacly the same no matter who you picked. Battlefield games have classes but in the end of the day they all feel the same and are not inherently distinct. Most shooters fall here into this category. Valorant too, is a class-based shooter. In the end of the day you shoot down things the same way with any of the heroes there.
9:06 well Blizzard's Overwatch is an exception because the fact you have access to every hero instead of just one in a match gives you an unfair advantage over people who don't, that is why them locking heroes behind the battle pass was incompetent. though from what I've seen it is an exception.
This video seems like it makes the definitions even more confusing than they already were. I would think that "more disctinct" differences that are pretty static would fit for the original defintion. Diversity in a shooter game is a fundamental problem to balance if there is no proper harmony. Classes feels like they overlap more in the traditional sense in terms of general capabilites while heroes in certain games are so different they do not ressemble eachother at all. This of course gets even more difficult to function when distinct heroes gets customization options that either changes alot or provides alternatives to the entire character, good or bad.
my favorite loosely defined hero shooter/moba game was a game called fractured space. instead of humanoid characters people could pick from, it was these giant space warships, they of course were catagoriezed as vessels that specialize in either attack, defense, or support. but were also catagorized based on weight as well. you had light weight ships, medium, and heavy vessels. but each individual ship had a specific set of abilites, or in this case weapon systems that were unique to that ship alone. one ship could harpoon other ships and pull them out of position, while another could have long range artillery canons capable of hiting enemies from afar and another could have wings of fighter and bomber craft to harrass, or pick off low health ships. you could customize the loadouts of said ships but these were mostly sidegrades and didn't stray too far from the base function of the default abilities. unfortunetly, it got shut down a while ago...i miss that game so much
That last point about how no one wants to learn the names of 12 new scrappy characters with every new hero shooter is why I think a hero shooter crossover game akin to smash bros would go crazy
GARDEN WARFARE MENTIONED 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
BEST GAME IN HISTORY 🗣️🔥
FOR REAL FOR REAL ON GOD 🔥💯🔥
@@johnsonfromml8662before it went down..
BATTLEBORN MENTIONED
GARDEN WARFARE MENTIONED 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥 WHAT THE FUCK IS CONSISTENT SUPPORT FOR THE FRANCHISE🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥
TF2 is considered the best because it wasn't ever a fully defined Hero Shooter, and instead of adding more Mercenaries to the roster that'd likely dampen other characters, they added more weapons for the nine Mercs to fight with, keeping them unique and fresh, where enough variety has allowed Subclasses to exist since 2009.
I absolutely agree, adding bloat characters instead of deepening existing characters is holding back a lot of modern games.
That’s also another reason why the Garden Warfare duology was so good - they just added variants, with there only being 8 classes as of GW2 (counting the secret characters). It helped make the game less stale without just letting any characters fall by the wayside. I agree that TF2’s system is better - the only character with proper, commonly used subclasses outside of variants is Scientist - but GW2 definitely comes close.
If TF2 is a Hero Shooter than so are the Classic Battlefront games. Especially BF2 for Mos Eisley Assault.
kinda like how RoR2 void dlc added void items to avoid bloating the loot pool, while also adding more toys to play with.
Tf2 is a class base shooter due to focusing on alternate play style by allowing for different loadouts rather than adding new characters that always remain the same. Hero shooters being coined by games like overwatch have their characters remain the same at all times while having ultimate abilities, in truth they are different and should be treated as such
Valve the type of developer to make a hero shooter before the term hero shooter even existed, make it the best one, then make a second hero shooter when everyone hates the genre and somehow it’s a success anyway
why does bro keep appearing in valve essays, at this point go to richter overtime and ratlobber's comment section
Oil up
it's not a hero shooter, it's a MOBA with shooting mechanics, not at all the same thing, even if similar
not a hero shooter in the same way people think of and like the ones they are tired of, just wanted to clarify
That's because it's not accurate to describe deadlock as a hero shooter. It's a fully fledged MOBA with all the trademarks of the genre that's played through the lens of a shooter rather than more traditional RTS derived controls.
i hate the term hero shooters because all the tf2 characters are either evil or insane
Lmao yeah they're pretty far from heroic
Villain shooters
You could make an argument for heavy and demo.
Well, they slowly banded together in that unfinished comic where Mann Co was taken over by Gray Mann, and the mercenaries were fired.
Fast forward to Vs. Saxton Hale, where Hale tries to take back his company, but has to fight rather convincing, off-sounding fakes of his own mercenaries before he can get to Gray Mann.
@@LostTemplars I'd say they are insane, but not evil.
I would say GW2 solves a lot of the hero shooter problems. There are LOADS of characters (121) but the others don't get dampened down because instead of adding characters, there's variants, which is the main class but with a small change to completely change how you play it. If you weren't counting variants there'd only be 16 characters which is enough to make them feel special. Another aspect of variants is their mixed roles, e.g sunflower is a healer character but if you're using the metal petal version of her she goes from healer, to a supportive tank. There's mixes of agile and tank, support and assault, or melee and healer. This aspect makes there be a ton of characters but still having a lot of personality.
it feels like character variants in GW fill the same role as the loadout system in tf2
@@sarahhutchinson6325 I just want to add to that and say progression and stuff is what the Garden warfare games also do well. Leveling up variants, and playing matches to get coins to get more variants was a great feedback loop. I was gonna say "great AND honest" but idk of that's the best word for it. Just... playing to have fun and get characters to have more fun; that's it. Not for leveling up in a battlepass, or doing things you don't want to for weapon skins or other cosmetics. Even if you do play a variant you're not jiving with, you could always put them on the backburner or look up a unique quirk they had, because they're characters with mechanics, not just visual content. Skins are cool, but they aren't mechanically interesting. They don't add to the fun of the game (for me at least).
That's pretty much all that I have to say, but I'll keep going because I like writing about this. Read if you want.
On this thought, it gets me thinking about other things, like trophies. Some people will refuse to play, or be disappointed with a game when it doesn't have trophies. I guess that's fine, but one would think you're here to first experience and have fun with a game, then other rewards come later (skins, trophies). Playing for fun, playing for mechanics and to level up the interesting variants (and even if they weren't, it was still exciting to play one for the first time. I've been playing GW2 for a few years now and STILL have variants and while classes I haven't touched) feels more honest. TF2 (haven't played) also does this well, and who knows, maybe OW2 as well, I didn't get that into it. But what I did see (or feel) when I played it was a lack of motivation to keep playing, as in, no feedback loop like in GW2. GW2 (and TF2 with it's weapons) allow you to not only pick a class you want, but then go further and pick a option in that class for more expression and such. Something that really fits with your playstyle. Other hero shooters I find are too limiting, even with their plentiful classes. I like the overlap and goofiness that could sometimes happen, like with something like Roadie Z. "You like engineers and their ability kit? Have that but know he's melee only." That freedom, or variety, or whatever you want to call it is a complete 10/10 for me.
Ok I really thought you meant Guild Wars 2 lmao
Nobody talks about those games cause PvZ is for kids (I played PvZ 2 for a week and got bored) but you might have found where concord got their idea for variants from and, no surprise, they also butchered it.
Weak hero-shooter logo energy: Circlular shape, abstract cymbol, one color
Strong hero-shooter logo energy:
Colorful, named logo, plant themed
BRAINNNZZZ
Eh ticks two of the boxes: TENNOOOOOOO
you called tf2 weak
tf2 is the reason for all of them
the stupidest thing that i did read today
GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE I LOVE ICE PEA
RAHHHH, I LOVE ROCK PEA!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@MackBananas womp womp womp
PLASMA PEA RAAAAAHHH!
(They massacred my boys look in the 2nd game 😭)
I FUCKING LOVE AGENT PEA RAAAAAAH WHAT THE HELL IS SPLASH DAMAGE 🗣️📢
@@AlOstosman smurf shooter 🗣🗣📢📢🔥🔥🔥 (Plasma pea is my favorite too)
I personally never liked the term "Hero Shooter", not because of the past vendetta from TF2 to OW, but because the term "Hero" is too broad of a word to accurately tell or describe the genre, while yes "Class-Base Shooter" wouldn't exactly be the most accurate when the so called "Classes" aren't just generic vessels and instead established stand alone characters, it makes the most sense at a gameplay perspective considering that the "Class" aspect is meant to represent your designated role as that character
character based shooter?
because it is just different characters not different heroes
@@marfit77 well then that would imply that the focus on the genre is the fact that the game features playable characters, not so much the role or function said character provides, otherwise games like Left 4 Dead would be placed next to games like TF2, OW, Apex, or Valorant simply because L4D features 4 playable characters, despite the fact that they provide no additional abilities or attributes to distinct from each other
@@ignitedradium1624 but hero already does just that mentioning the "hero" without talking about kit or function the hero provides or what differentiates the "hero"
but I do agree that character makes them feel too generic
how about we follow LoL's steps and call them Champion based shooter
"champion" is far less generic and makes all of the characters sound like unique notable people without making them sound like they have to be morally just or good.
At that point you're splitting hairs tbh
Mans got no business casually dropping peak cinema on me like that 😤
4:40 Patrick's expressions are so rich
TF2 dodging every one of the cons really is a blessing
This is true, except for maybe balance with all the items, but I agree TF2 is like Neo out there
@@P-Bean just take away the shield on that damn secondary, Valve.
@@P-Bean Balance is kinda impossible to achieve ngl but they could've made some weapons actually worth equipping
When people make whitelists of items that are allowed in order to play the game competitively (which all modern hero shooters aim for), you can't realistically think the game's balanced.
@@georgthesecond I feel like this should be self explanatory, but:
tf2 is not a modern shooter. the primary format of tf2 is a casual 12v12 (or 16v16) no limits experience, as the game has had since launch in 2007. this is drastically different from the competitive formats which tf2 is played in. all of tf2's items cannot all be balanced in both the competitive and the casual environment. (eg the base jumper, which is still broken in a competitive environment, even with only one deploy). so the balance conversation of tf2 should probably focus on the main game mode that's been supported for 15+ years, in which case there are maybe 3? problematic items, out of a total 150+. sounds pretty balanced 😃
IT'S CLASS BASED NOT HERO RRRGHHAHH
👉😎👉
Real ones say class not hero
Profesional have standards
THEYRE NOT THE SAME
@@whoisanarnbfr
PLANTS VS ZOMBIES GW WAS THE FIRST MODERN HERO SHOOTER‼️‼️
AND THE BEST overwatch copied citron ball and chomper burrow PVZ GW2 BEST GAME 🔥🔥🔥
Don’t forget they copied the imp class with one of the characters they have very low health but have a large ass Mech
there's nothing original in overwatch, lol
1:42 "As if any if these guys are "heroic"
As tf2 fan that's so true 💀🗿
Which is why TF2 is actually called a Class Shooter, the original name of the genre before it got hijacked by copycats who wanted to create the unnecessary and stupid name of "hero" shooter, which was a terrible idea because not all characters are classified as heroes or morally good at all and is a false name that sets up unnecessary complications that do not make any logical sense.
Garden warfare was also peak because it stuck to a rigid cast and let you cutomize the moves rather than have 5 characters who are slight variations of each other, overwatch
9:55 Deadlock being a moba first, hero shooter second really helped with it's immense success (127k players in just a CLOSED ALPHA), makes it so players from Dota 2, SMITE and LoL can acclimate fairly quickly to the gameplay loop and climb to the high MMRs while also ensuring the OW/Apex/TF2/etc. players don't have their shooting skills go to waste and have it carry them while they learn & master the MOBA mechanics in the low MMR lobbies
I've been seeing a ton of "I came from *insert popular or nostalgic moba slash hero shooter here* and found Deadlock really fun & refreshing, I'm addicted to it now" posts (or something along those lines) on twitter and reddit, it's genuinely surprising to me how popular & liked this game become after everyone (including me) hated on it when it was first leaked
wait what, it just hit 100k yesterday when I checked, now it's 127k?
@@MaxCEyes it increased from 100k to 127k in a day and continues to increase
Everyone thought I was crazy when I said Valve cooked with Deadlock, and now there's facts speaking for me
@@Nykomil deadlock has loooong way to go but i belive in it idk if i will keep playing it cuz the skill celling is so high
@@pumpkinspice5848 I guess that's mobas for ya, I haven't touched a single moba other than deadlock but I have fun, even when losing
I refuse to live in a world where TF2 is called a "Hero Shooter" and not a "War-Themed Hat Simulator".
You can rip out my nuts, peel out my eyeballs, tear out my heart like a cheesy 80's love song, but you will NEVER take away my selfish spirit!
Goodbye P-Bean. I’ll be back with supplies next week
“Thanks jimmy. Ground yourself on the way back”
"Nitra's been withdrawn, and a Supply Pod is in bound."
tbh, i can see why people are annoyed by TF2 being called a hero shooter, when it puts them into the same ballpark as some universally hated games. And just the fact that genre definition randomly changing is just annoying. actually, everyone in general is frustrated with game genres.
I feel like a very major issue with Hero(i guess) shooters, is that their original vibe nearly always gets washed out, and gets turned into something else entirely. creating a weird polarizing cast with some random 80's punk, and then a cowboy, an alien pink puppy, and an evil british man all in one game.
Agreed, but it is what it is, and if most casual players consider TF2 a Hero Shooter, pushing up your glasses and arguing (as I've seen) is just silly.
I totally get the annoyance, but it just is what it is.
@@P-Bean Got no issues with it but I've been playing TF since 1999 and have literally never seen a single player refer to it as a hero shooter. Curious to why you think the majority of players think this.
Yeah i think the overall hero shooter model is heavily tied to the monetization scheme those games have. By having a random XD roster that attacks by pressing Q to do le epic super lazor, and if you prime players to expect to be fine with dealing with stuff like being stunned for 9 seconds, you can basically add whatever you want to the game forever.
i like both PVZ and TF2. They’re both so goofy it’s awesome
I’d actually consider the Splatoon games to fall under the umbrella of “class based” but not “hero” shooters. Yeah, there are like, 50+ unique weapons with kits attached to them, but when things are boiled down, there are 11 weapon classes, generally split among 4 play styles: Slayer, Skirmsher, Anchor, and Support.
The lore for the game is made so that every player is effectively the same character, and every weapon in the game can really fall into one of three categories based on how they are fired.
1. Press shoot button, weapon shoots
2. Hold shoot button, weapon charges, release button, weapon shoots
3. Press shoot button, weapon shoots, hold shoot button, weapon does a different attack/function
Was just about to mention that yeh, it’s a really neat modern example of a more class / weapon based shoot that instead of sticking to specific characters just gives the player a ton of options on how to make their character feel unique.
5:58 Great, now I want a clown-themed Hero Shooter. Thanks a lot P-Bean, I'm gonna be thinking about that for YEARS.
Holy shit "A Little Less Conversation (JXL Remix)" jumpscare.
Planetside2 spotted, what a good game.
(also thinking of the mercs as "heroes" seems really funny to me)
For me it goes this way:
Hero Shooter: Stuff like Overwatch, each character has their immutable items, abilities and stats which are more or less different from other characters, very little if no customization on the gameplay/stat side of each character;
Class-based shooter: Each character has some degree of customization which is more or less unique to each of them regarding their stats and items', they usually don't have abilities or atleat they are common for all of them, customization can vary a lot game to game, think of stuff like TF2 with subclasses compared, for example, to a traditional Battlefield game;
MOBA Shooter (?): There isn't much stuff here, Paragon (Predecessor), Smite and now Deadlock.
THEY ARE MOBA GAMES but what would you call "Auto attacks" in a traditional MOBA game is replaced with a traditional shooting mechanic from a shooter game, moreover they usually feature a significant verticality just like a traditional shooter, customization is just like a MOBA game, which doesn't significantly change what you do (active items aside which are still basic compared to high-customizable Class-based like TF2) but instead improves and add stuff to what your character already does.
About classes as "categories" (which TF2 also has since each of the 9 classes are divided into attack, defense and support) I don't think they have any meaningful meaning on gameplay, they just exist to tell at a glance what classes are better suited for what, or in Overwatch case it indicates a common passive such as healers healing themselves over time.
However even in TF2 you have Demoman as a defense class, but if you swap the grenade launcher for a shield it becomes an attack class, or Scout which would be better suited as a Support class since it mostly flanks (just like Spy which is considered Support) but it's considered an attack class, at the same time Heavy is really important in an attack and yet it's considered a defense class, for this reason I don't think "classes" as categories mean something.
Yeah anybody who knows anything about tf2 knows that the class selection screen categories are super inaccurate. If you listen to the developer commentary they talk about how the classes are divided up into generalists and specialists which honestly makes way more sense. Soldier, demo, and medic are always useful, but spy and sniper are often very useless. However, spy and sniper can both do things that would otherwise be very difficult for a soldier or demo to do.
I do disagree with you on how youre categorizing some of those classes though. stock demo is amazing at both offense and defense because hes the best character at shitting out damage which is amazing no matter what you are doing. He just has weaknesses in direct 1v1s. Scout really isnt a support class. He's the best 1v1er in the game and only soldier comes close in that regard. I just dont think it makes much sense to say that one of the best fragging classes is a support class.
@@capnfapn If we limit ourselves to TF2's categories (which as you said are really "inaccurate") what should Scout be considered though?
Is he an attack class? I wouldn't say so because he doesn't do much in the frontline, unless we consider flanking an attack, but at this point even spy would be an attack class;
Is he a defense class? No because he can't defend zones against the enemy team.
Support is what think suits him best because in that category there are really unique characters which do everything and nothing: Sniper can defend and attack very well, but only if he keeps distances and has a team in front of him, he can't do anything alone;
Same for Medic, he basically keeps the team alive and allow everyone else to keep doing what they need to do, but on his own he's pretty useless;
Spy is probably a similar class in what they do: they both flank, take isolated targets, and master one specific thing: Spy takes out engie buildings and waste enemy Medic charges, Scout is the best at playing the objective because he pushes/captures at double speed and is the best for stealing the suitcase thanks to his movement speed.
But since categories are inaccurate this argument could go on forever so I don't think that it makes sense going on since the foundations (TF2 categories) are flawed.
@@rayder3543 scout is a relatively difficult class that changes a lot as you get better at him. Newer scouts are completely reliant on flanking and catching players off guard, but once you get good at him it's totally viable to just attack people head on as long as you're not playing on an extremely chokey map like dustbowl. Scout is actually pretty damn good at defending. He's excellent at killing bombing soldiers and controlling high ground. The things that can be tough to deal with on scout like sentries and super spammy choke points are way less of an issue when you're defending. Scout is nowhere good at holding a choke as soldier or demo, but he can do a ton of work on areas like the first point of bad water where he has room to maneuver and height differences to take advantage of .
@@capnfapn Yeah, I was just talking about class categories.
I would add Gigantic to the Moba hero shooter hybrids!
4:12 I wonder who’s awesome fishing cape sign that is ;)
Awesome fishing cape sign!!!
I feel like to me there is a difference between a class based shooter and a hero shooter and the main difference is that class based shooters are more focused on adding onto and increasing the depths of the classes. While hero based shooters are more focused on adding new characters and increasing the roster of heroes. Garden Warfare 2 is probably the game that has done the best job at balancing these two aspects as the way it added content was to add variants of classes to where the class itself was still fundamentally the same and still pursued the same goals as that class normally would. (Which to be fair for all classes in that is game is just to kill people as even the "support" classes like scientist and sunflower still hit like trucks), but could behave differently in how they would achieve those goals. In a way the variants system is a perfect blend of classes and heroes as its new characters go off the base of a class and the variants give variety to class in a way I haven't seen any other game try to replicate.
In this context, the base of a class would be the body type and abilities unique to each class whilst the variant is permitted to swap out the weapon to whatever they want. i.e., the engineer's slow firing grenade launcher weapon can be changed to a rapid fire assault rifle weapon with the mechanic, which is already a weapon archetype used by the footsoldier class who's also on the zombie team.
If garden warfare could be considered class shooter then tf2 is even more of a class shooter because the mercs have basically no abilities and thier gameplay is dictated by thier weapon
Untrue, the scout runs fast and can double jump, that's a unique ability.
Titanfall 2 is a class shooter if you're referring to pilots, but a hero shooter if you're talking about titans
I hope one day Garden Warfare return with class shooter like GW 1/2 not BFN and not be cash grab like EA did
The way I've always looked at it is this:
Hero Shooters have a large cast of characters, pretty much universally with abilities that have cooldowns that are separate from the shooting mechanics themselves. The way devs balance these games are by rearranging their stats, cooldowns, damage, etc. as well as by adding new characters to the game, increasing the size of it's roster
Class Based Shooters have a relatively smaller cast of characters, usually without personal abilities on cooldowns though not always the case. The way devs balance these games are by almost universally changing the stats of specifically the guns themselves. Buffing/nerfing damage, reload speed, etc. and by adding more weapons as time goes on.
TF2 to me is a definitive Class Based Shooter, similar in other games like Battlefield or even Insurgency: Sandstorm. I'd also put The Finals in here since you have a large variety of weapons to pick for each class, as well as having the ability to change your ability. Plus I don't think they'd add new classes, unless you go like... Super Light and Super Heavy.
Games like Overwatch, Valve's new Deadlock, and recent game Concord are all Hero Shooters. The characters in those games have unique abilities and weapons, though you don't change those weapons and they add/will add more characters as time goes on.
It’s hilarious how the only hero shooters that are actually worth playing have basically consisted of the exact same 3 games for about 7 years now, and every title since then has half-assed the basic formula that makes the big three work and somehow “shockingly” almost never work.
Disagree with TF2 being a hero shooter. You are not playing as THE Scout, you are playing as A Scout, exactly because there's nothing stopping everyone on your team playing the same class as you.
That restriction on playing as a character you want to is the defining difference to me, where they prioritise making each character "unique" across matches, you can only have one "hero"
This is the same for something like garden warfare where islts definitely a hero shooter because of the on demand abilities the characters have but no ones stopping anyone as playing the same one as you but since you have a kit that is designed around a paticular job tf2 is definitely a class shooter like battlefield or even something like squad
It’s weird seeing a channel like this without a million subs, this is very polished well made content. You will blow up
Garden Warfare 2 is genuinely a masterpiece
Realest shi I’ve heard today 🔥
Garden Warfare 2 mentioned RAHHH!
1:04 GIGANTIC SHOWN RAHHH
Brawlstars being mentioned, even if you didn't even utter it, surprised me. Can't wait to see the engie class video.
TF2 isn't a hero shooter... What the hell man, what's common with every single hero shooter is characters all have an unique ability or ultimate, not having that makes your game a class shooter. TF2 isn't a class shooter, and is in fact a hero shooter because... the Scout has a name and a personality? This is such an unbelievably goofy way to look at it
Yeah, I agree, TF2 is a class shooter! Hero shooters spew out characters with slightly different stats/abilities, while class shooters have different WEAPONS for the already established cast to use.
Calling TF2 a hero shooter is also wrong because You subconciously call the 9 mercs as "heroes" when they are badasses.
@tacnayn-x they are also mercenaries lmao
The biggest diference between class-based shooter vs a hero shooter i've noticed is that there can be multiple of the same class on a team but not heroes.
GARDEN WARFARE AND TF2 IN ONE VIDEO LETS GO
Gw games nostalgia hits hard.
Best way someone has explained Modern Hero Shooters I've ever seen. Nice Job! (Also refrencing gw and titanfall 2 is a GOAT move 🐐)
Garden Warfare perhaps the second surviving game after TF2. How this game is still alive is beyond me.
Garden Warfare spotted, ive been summoned
1:41 Regarding the text I think it's more in line with how the term "main hero" doesn't mean that the main character is a hero. Hero in this case is just synonymous with character
9:19 one of my favorite engineers is deep rock galatics engineer. In drg,the characters don't really have unique voicelines,but there is just an insane amount of them. However,it is the engineers gameplay that I would like to talk about. The engineer does of course,have a sentry. However,in this game you can get permant upgrades by selecting one from a row at a time from up to around 5 rows. The ones I'd like to talk about from engineer are the first and last for the sentry gun. The first allowe you to choose between 1 better sentry or two of the orginal sentry (that one also gives more ammo) the two normal ones does theoretically have better dps,but it takes more time to get set up and you run out of ammo much faster. (You have a limited amount of ammo each mission,but you can refill it by gathering nitra in the caves.) The upgraded one does have better stats and much better sustain, but you will be missing the second during a swarm sometimes. Both are perfectly viable. The last lets you choose between two systems. The defender system and the uhhh I forgot the name system. The defender system locks your sentry to a limited angle,but increases its damage and range. The seeker? System greatly increases range,and whatever you ping will be targeted by your sentry,but no damage increase. Also,you have to manually build your sentry,you are a dwarf,and it's a pve game.
5:19 Rip Doge,,,,
Dude, this video was very informative and entertaining at the same time. Gotta say I instantly subbed after, keep up the great work mate.
Both pvz and tf2 should get more love
Other games like overwatch are already beaten to almost death so..
Finally, a collab between Patrick and his iconic creator Patrick! So many opportunities for tomfoolery!
This was a great video. It’s clear you put a lot of research into getting it done along with great editing and animation skills. Also I’m glad people are starting to see TF2 as the hero shooter it is because those characters are way to distinct to just be classes. My own definition of classes in video games is usually when all characters feel very similar to play but have differing guns. For example, if in CSGO you exclusively used snipers, congrats you created a sniper class for yourself (ik you can buy whatever guns you want but my point is with the customization you can essentially create your own classes.)
Huh, I always assumed that "Hero Shooter" meant a multiplayer FPS game where you play a unique character with a backstory, a recognisable apeparance, and so forth. Even back when Overwatch came out I thought of it as such.
Poor zanny outed himself on 4K HD ultrawide
I mean, let's be real, he didn't out himself, he just admitted what everyone else is too afraid to admit...
Your videos are always great to watch
2:27 GIGANTIC MENTIONED! with others I don't know, you did you do your research!
You didn’t mention the upside of Hero Shooters literally add dozens of recognizable icons to the game’s atmosphere… making the companies a lot more money lmao.
Hero shooters are to gaming what Ewoks were to Star Wars. It’s an action figure waiting to happen. It makes the game way more expanded for merchandise
I feel like that kinda counts towards what I said about the impact on culture, but you're right.
5:17 Uhhh... Cheems is dead... god rest his soul.
HER NAME WAS KABOSU RAHHH
TF2's approach of having classes without any special ínate abilities (some expection like double jump and invis) that are mainly seperated by the weapon choices available to them and more so relying to mechanical organic human input based abilities like rocket jumping etc is far superior, since its easier to balance and keeps the game from getting bloated with 40+ charachters that all more or less do the same things but a bit differently, simply adding new weapons that do the class roles jobs slightly differently keeps the game from being bloated and more readable overall while maintaining a better design cohesion consistency since youre always working with the original classes the game was designed around in all aspects
It's not like having a ton of different weapons instead of a ton of different heroes really reduces bloat though; having 7 different rocket launchers or 5 revolvers with slightly different stats can be confusing and overwhelming in its own right.
I personally jumped to TF2 Classic because I think the lack of weapon bloat has led to better balance and pacing overall. It's a much more even push-and-pull compared to weapons like the Jarate, Mad Milk, Soldier banners, Crusader's Crossbow, Wrangler, etc. making team fights much more swingy and snowbally.
Deadlock is a MOBA through and through, every MOBA has abilities
3:00
i was tabbed out and merely hearing the sound of hovering over the thingies immediately made my neurons light up like a fucking rave
i played way too much titanfall 2
Here's my take on the classifications, more to do with how I see the designs of said games be created, rather than a definition created during the 'inception' of 'hero shooters' nor a retroactive definition post-hero shooters. And here we need a third classification: 'Character' shooter:
*Hero shooter* is when you choose between playable characters whom have several unique mechanics, with only a little similarity between them (what mechanics they use). Here the most clear standout would be Overwatch, followed closely by TF2, although you can switch the places of these two as Overwatch's hero design has diluted, as expected of a game that has 30+ of them compared to the 9 of TF2.
*Character shooters* are game where you too pick between playable characters whom have several unique mechanics, but the main mechanics that the player interacts with are the same across whichever character they pick. Here the most clear standout would be Valorant: Each character has unique gameplay flair, and hence team roles, but all have to be played in the same base counter-strike way, it's not like one character can only use shotguns, and another projectile weapons etc. Abilities are add-ons onto the base shooter game.
*Class shooters* are hence what's left (largely), classes rarely if ever have unique mechanics other's can't use in some shape or form, and whilst weapons and equipment (design wise analogous to 'abilities') is restricted, most of these choices are mere number differences on the same base mechanic. Battlefield is an example of this. Whilst (classes depend on which title) Assault, Engineer, Support, and Recon have different primary weapons, they are all the same mechanic. All classes have the same sidearms, the same knives, the same grenades, infact all have some sort of explosive gear slot, and whilst yes, c4, rocket launchers, and grenade launchers, are not the same mechanic, they *are* all explosives, and more importantly, are FAR less 'unique' between each other than their 'Hero' and 'Character' equivalents.
Here's the thing I've never seen a hero shooter allow players to choose the same hero more than once per team in their main game modes.
Despite each class being fleshed out as a separate person, you can stack 12 exactly same scouts with exact same weapons, something that is the case in class shooters like battlefield, but unheard of in hero shooters.
+As a historian there is the case of presentism, you cannot call past people or things with modern ideas because they didn't exist at the time and therefore it takes away from past events by thinking that society is the same it ever was
Thus TF2 is not and never will be a hero shooter
It's because in TF2, you're not playing as THE scout, you're playing as A scout, with different cosmetics, different weapons, maybe different hairstyles etc. Even though the base model is the same, the character is separate enough from the comic book series to be its own individual entity. Unlike the TF2 comics, ingame you never hear the classes call out other classes by their true legal birth names, only their class name, as there are multiple instances of that class all with different individual identities that make all the different "clones" unique, separate people.
@@Agent_125 Aye, best example of this is when a spy says "that spy is an enemy"
TF2 is a Class Shooter, I am not gonna have any of this "Hero shooter" BS attached to it. Idk if anyone noticed, but none of the TF2 classes have abilities, they only have swappable weapon choices that fit their "class". Yea, they are characters with personalities, but that doesn't mean they are "hero" characters.
7:01 you dont even have to imagine, just look at Concord🤢🤮
To me, a hero shooter is mainly defined by the customization, namely the lack thereof, and is one end of a sliding scale with normal shooters(COD) on the other end and class based shooters in the middle(battlefield).
NOT THE ZANNY CLIP
I actually opened the video to see if there was any mention to Monday Night Combat or SMNC; and there it is.. 2:27 im happy
Lowkey impressed by this guy's animation and editing skills. Surprised he doesn't have more subs.
just found this channel why is your fursona patrick star
Garden warfare 2 is easily one of the best games of all time
can you make a conga line in GW2?
thats just fact. really outstanding game, coming back to life too. EA is slowly seeing that this game outlives their every single modern day crap, playerbase somehow is bouncing back up on steam, true blessing.
@@mikadeksjur653 I wish it had a large thriving playerbase since I only owned it on console but no longer have mine and didn’t rebuy it and it would be hard to convince friends to buy it for the same reason
@@sonysdad4709 ye i convinced one but he doesnt wanna play anymore bcs he doesnt want to grind computer scientist. on consol grinding all legendaries as kid took me year. nowdays we cant afford that. we could afford buying tho and i even bought toxic brainz. but sadly u cant buy computer scientist even tho he would buy him instantly if he could.
TF2 was considered to be outside of the Hero Shooter because of the loadout system which most if not all Hero Shooters are missing which could drastically shift how each classes play. A gunslinger Engineer were pretty much considered offensive than a wrench Engineer, Demoknight is more of a pick compared to Demoman, etc.
So yeah, you play as The Scout, but you could be The Scout with the Bonk, The Scout with the Backscatter, etc. (it only gets really compressed once you brought in competitive scene though since they got shit like META and weapon bans)
I think the only requirements for something to be a Hero Shooter is 1: to be a shooter and 2: have characters be design to do things no other character can do. Battlefield is a class shooter and not a hero shooter because every player can revive a downed teammate, but there's a class that revives them faster. While in OW there's only one character who can resurrect.
9:00
this is somewhat incorrect (at least the example given is).
games like Dota and League have a "growing" player base because old veterans don't leave, or at least they do so at a snail's pace. The only problem is that new players also don't want to join or do so very slowly, either because of the complexity, or because it's league. I can attest that Dota drove me off because I didn't want to learn 50-some-odd characters, good shop items, and have to learn the minimap, laning, jungles, and other things just to play 'casually'.
also imagine some poor sod picking up overwatch 2 in 2024, then instantly getting slept, pinned, shattered, sigma ulted, then killed and having to process what the hell just happened.
This is a good point, I think Dota and League also have a lot of new players getting pushed in by veteran friends.
This is what happened to me before I stopped playing and is happening currently in my friend group.
@@P-Bean tbh valve is trying to fix that with deadlock
its either to ease yourself into dota2 or to remain into deadlock bcs its the only moba you can play
I wanted to forget about GW2
PALADINS GOT SOME RECOGISION, HELL YEAH!!!
I never knew the term "Hero shooter" was coined by the battle born devs. I always just thoughtit was something overwatch fans came up with since the characters are called heroes in that game.
Do you think you could link me to where you've read or heard this so i can look more into it myself?
Sure!
It was actually coined in mid 2014 (not 2015, oops) at the announce of Battleborn, a few months before Overwatch was even announced later in 2014,
you can check out the reveal trailer here
ua-cam.com/video/J3pgQc17JB0/v-deo.html
here's a few articles from around the time talking about it
www.pcgamer.com/battleborn-gearboxs-triple-a-hero-shooter-promises-fps-gunplay-with-moba-like-strategy/
www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2014/09/18/battleborn-preview/15767239/
oh thats one of my favorite youtubers taking the dark path and becoming a green screen microphone youtuber
Patrick star with detailed teeth and mouth movements is really creepy.
I always found it weird that we abandoned the 'class based shooter' label, because a major difference between tf2 (the best/most prominent class shooter) and overwatch (the best/most prominent hero shooter) is that tf2 let's you mechanically customize your class with different loadouts while overwatch didn't.
In my head, we should keep both labels and have 'hero' refer to completely pre-built and uncustomizable packages, and 'class' refer to unique characters/mechanics that can then be customized by the player.
7:19 relatable
i only know genji bc my friend in middle school mained him
Calling TF2 a hero shooter is like calling Russia a member of NATO.
Outting Zanny to prove a memorable characters exist outside of their given game. Good writing
Valve are visionaries 🗿🙏
Don't forget Pvz garden warfare actually Inspired tf2 and First Main Hero Shooter Idea and Main Abilities before overwatch copy both Tf2 and Pvz gw
How the hell is tf2 a modern hero shooter can you tell me what year is it today?
Perhaps building down with a core team, works better than building out. If need be, you can always do the alternate sex method, where you design the opposite sex for each character. To where they don’t have to be the same character, just a different character doing the same job with the same weapons that you can put many of the same cosmetics on for that class.
Maybe I just like the idea of valve implementing the female Merc designs for each class to flesh out the world a bit in game. Regardless, I still think working on a core class and building down each of the core you set up is probably a good idea for shooters.
You tweak the weapon and it’s proficiencies/abilities to the charter’s role/abilities, rather than tweaking all characters for the one weapon or the one weapon for all the characters.
The medigun is only applied to a single character, the types of mediugun and their abilities are limited or excel only based on one character. The spy’s knifes are very powerful but the draw back of it is the spy’s speed and reach with the attack. Which plays off his ability of deception to get close and make up for not getting mowed down. The player has several methods of chance to understand if it is a spy or not, so it doesn’t feel cheap if the spy stabs you. Then you have the multi class items, such as some of the shot guns. What works well with the shot gun is that it’s only a primary on the class that could use it the most between the 3, the engineer. For the other two classes Heavy and Soldier, they have different primaries which are better. They are more powerful and long range. They don’t really use or have a need for the shotgun. Some people still use it, such as soldiers who may not want the splash damage that could end them with close enemies, or Heavies who may be slowed down or run out of ammo for their mini gun. For engineer, who based on his abilities usually fights in a closer range, the shot gun is the perfect weapon. While the scout uses a different form of shot gun, those are based around his speed and mobility.
But I digress, hopefully that was enough to convey my idea across.
I mean on my case TF2 being called a hero shooter didn't suit right because I always considered the mercs to be morally grey, their characters' impact is that they're insane contracted killers in the game, so I wouldn't call that heroic.
However the MvM mode did seem to be having quite a heroic vibe as the robots would be the threat for the players. And I didn't know how to feel about how in one of the comics the mercs also got called heroes as a small bit because I wouldn't call them that at the moment.
So it's kind of a strange case where instead of being in one spot, it constantly changes to the other side.
That aside, good video! I like how all of it is structured! Might consider checking out the channel some more!
I got early access to deadlock somehow and I tried opening the game. 10fpa in training mode :/
no ones gonna mention the cymbal syncing with the kill at 6:21?
I am so glad someone noticed this.
What we need to disrupt the genre is a melee based hero game all about completely nameless cave people in prehistoric earth mauling each other over food and riding dinosaurs into battle. It's basically the opposite of the average hero shooter these days and yet I feel like everyone would vibe with it
With a theme like that, you could apply it to any pre-modern era of history, or make up your own world where melee is the choice form of combat (regardless of technological advancement).
@@valutaatoaofunknownelement197 I mean, there's always For Honor... *shudders*
garden warfare is goated.
Great video. I noticed in this video and in a few of your previous ones you mention Hunt: Showdown (now 1896). Have you ever thought of doing a video on extraction shooters and how the differ/fit in to the "Battle Royale" genre? I personally feel like they fix a lot of the complaints people have with battle royale games, but they also bring with them some of their own problems. Just an idea, great job with this video.
"reaction to deadlock" like, the almost 200k concurrent players just in the EU? yeah people are VERY tired, no one wants to play these anymore
maybe its just becasue most of my time playing competetive online video games was on overwatch and league of legends, but i love hero shooters please game companies keep producing more hereo shooter slop
The reason TF2 is the best Hero shooter is because simply, it isn't. Or at least not fully. And I mean this in both gameplay and presentation. And it all meets right in the middle.
InLike a lot of hero shooters, teamwork does matter, but not to the extent of a hero shooter, one good player can easily carry pubs. And well there are things like items with cooldowns that might be a gameplay stand-in for ults, you don't have to play with those, there is nothing stopping you from just grabbing more gun, and cleaning house. And well most hero shooters expand like a wide puddle, TF2 builds deep with the amount of ways to customize a class.
In the presentation department, it is really similar as well. True the TF2 cast has more depth to them than, like, the entirety of the League of Legends cast. That doesn't mean they are fully heroes either. The mercs are equally generic as they are iconic. They often have multiple interpretations. Heavy in the early TF2 is a Brute who lives for combat, in the comics he's a reserved intellectual, and in GMOD he's a crybaby idiot. And all them work, because that's how open ended the Mercs are. They can be inserted into any scene, serious or comedic, and still work.
And that includes self inserts. You see a dime-a-dozen UA-camrs use their favorite loadout slot as their channel headpiece. Why? Because of easy it is to insert yourself. into a TF2 character. When you pick a skin in League, you don't really attach yourself to the character, you are still playing a LoL character. But with a TF2 character, their cosmetics and weapons are so customizable that you can't help but put a bit of yourself into it. They become your interpretations of the classes.
tl;dr TF2 good all other games bad
If the gunplay is defined and shaped by the heroes themselves and the gameplay vastly varies based on the hero, its a hero shooter. TF2, OW, Paladins ETC are all playing distinctly different depends on the class/hero you selected.
History doesnt matter, language changes to fit the needs of its users. Since the definition is barely 10 years old its too soon to be particular about it. Accept that TF2 is a hero shooter even if it wasnt called that way initially.
If the gunplay is defined by the gun/kit you are using, its a class shooter, or just a shooter with classes, depending on how distinct the classes are. Apex you can play as whomever but if you pick up a rifle it plays exacly the same no matter who you picked. Battlefield games have classes but in the end of the day they all feel the same and are not inherently distinct. Most shooters fall here into this category. Valorant too, is a class-based shooter. In the end of the day you shoot down things the same way with any of the heroes there.
WHAT PLANETSIDE 2 MENTIONED 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
9:06 well Blizzard's Overwatch is an exception because the fact you have access to every hero instead of just one in a match gives you an unfair advantage over people who don't, that is why them locking heroes behind the battle pass was incompetent.
though from what I've seen it is an exception.
This video seems like it makes the definitions even more confusing than they already were.
I would think that "more disctinct" differences that are pretty static would fit for the original defintion.
Diversity in a shooter game is a fundamental problem to balance if there is no proper harmony.
Classes feels like they overlap more in the traditional sense in terms of general capabilites while heroes in certain games are so different they do not ressemble eachother at all.
This of course gets even more difficult to function when distinct heroes gets customization options that either changes alot or provides alternatives to the entire character, good or bad.
my favorite loosely defined hero shooter/moba game was a game called fractured space. instead of humanoid characters people could pick from, it was these giant space warships, they of course were catagoriezed as vessels that specialize in either attack, defense, or support. but were also catagorized based on weight as well. you had light weight ships, medium, and heavy vessels. but each individual ship had a specific set of abilites, or in this case weapon systems that were unique to that ship alone. one ship could harpoon other ships and pull them out of position, while another could have long range artillery canons capable of hiting enemies from afar and another could have wings of fighter and bomber craft to harrass, or pick off low health ships. you could customize the loadouts of said ships but these were mostly sidegrades and didn't stray too far from the base function of the default abilities. unfortunetly, it got shut down a while ago...i miss that game so much
That last point about how no one wants to learn the names of 12 new scrappy characters with every new hero shooter is why I think a hero shooter crossover game akin to smash bros would go crazy
Great video, if it looks like Funk then it means it's very good