What I love about Abercrombie is that he knows how to tell a dark tale, but also throws in humour at the right time. That sets him apart from some of the other series that is just depressingly dark. Beyond Redemption is also on my TBR. I'm cautious though, because I believe I've heard it is a bit too nihilistic for my tastes. Thanks for the vid Mike, your recs are always on my TBR.
The original is still the best! Glen Cook's "The Black Company" novels are at the top of the charts for me. You really get to feel what its like for mere mortal men to walk the earth along side the darkest of sorcerers and an evil which threatens to dominate the world. Some of the best fantasy ever written!
I'm missing 100 pages on my kindle. The best series since Ice and Fire. I quit the Stormlight Archive after 4 books. I needed something else which was not high Fantasy. Boy did I find it in the First Law.
I think the darkness and bleakness of the world is particularly necessary to showcase the motivations of the morally gray characters in GrimDark. Without it, they’re just villainous, self-serving people who do mostly horrible things. But against the backdrop, you can understand why they do what they do. How such a horrible world crafted such a twisted person. It’s not just the nihilism behind the points of view. It’s the reason behind it that makes it so special.
@@mikesbookreviews or even if hard to believe (like in the case of Logan going absolutely berserk and walking through everything in his path), at least it’s understandable at some level!
Bakker is the darkest tale you can find and the bleakest but grimdark is such a restraining term for its content. Its so thought provoking, experimental, philosophical, grand scope and meta. Its amazing
Since you mentioned it but didn’t include it on this list, I’m taking this as your admission that Malazan isn’t Grimdark. 😁 Excellent list, Mike! I’m following your Second Apocalypse read with much interest!
@@EricMcLuenI think if we lingered a bit more on the 12 years of Danish decimation at Grendel’s hand, it certainly could be. The novel, Grendel, is largely set during this time period but it definitely strives to be more philosophical.
Thanks for the list. I'm just finishing the First Law Trilogy now. Joe Abercrombie's a genius. I read his Half a King trilogy first on a recommend from a friend, enjoyed it, but not as much as First Law.
I know Mark Lawrence wasn’t your cup of tea, but The Broken Empire trilogy was my non GoT introduction to grimdark. Excited to add Abercrombie and Shackle to my list.
Thanks for this video and for your channel. I very much appreciate your opinions and your honesty. I’m a relative newbie to fantasy and have found that I love grim dark. The First Law was the gateway series for me and now I can’t get enough of fantasy and grim dark. Keep up the good work Mike.
Great points on ASOIAF. As one reads through the books, one reconsiders various characters against a more complex moral landscape. Without overstating it, some of them felt almost Shakespearean in their complex value systems. And when they clashed, who or what I was rooting for became more vague at times.
I understand through reading through the comment section that the Black Company series isn't on your radar but I do wonder what your take on it would be. Granted after reading through a good chunk of the series that it certainly isn't one for everyone but I certainly find it to have interesting characters and lore.
Your feedback, even on books I haven't read, is very important to me. I like your opening bit about what grimdark really is, you have said before as well that too many books are marked horror that really arent.
Thank you for trying to make the definition clear, or more clear. I'm a relatively new fantasy reader trying to figure out what my TBR is going to be. I even audited a fantasy course, which included ASOIAF, and it was just too much for me. Characters who are morally grey, cool; dark setting, amazing; but apparently I have limits on the amount of violence I can take - go figure! I wish I could know which ones I would enjoy without having a bunch of DNF's that I just had to stop due to my level of discomfort.
I agree with your observation about The Broken Empire trilogy. The only thing I was rooting for was the ending. Unfortunately, I DNF'd half way through Emperor of Thorns. The only thing I regretted was that I didn't do it sooner! Just finished an engaging triology which I think is on the 'lighter side' of grimdark - RJ Barker's The Child Tide trilogy. Not a lotta laffs and definitely morally grey.
Awesome list Mike! Going to get into Bakker here soon. Perhaps one of thr most grimdark things I have read was actually historical fiction and that was 'Agincourt' by Bernard Cornwell. Just a reminder that the real world is often worse than most anything an author can come up with.
I read the Court of Broken Knives trilogy. I'm one who liked the first book the most, the second book a little less, and third one not that much. However, her prose is fantastic. I can't say that enough. I'm definitely interesting in reading more of her work.
Black Company series is one of my top 2 favorites, in my opinion each book gets better and better as you read them. You can't just read the first book; you definitely need to read the first three at least, but I recommend the entire series.
Mike, I see Imajica in the bottom shelf behind you. I read that when I was in high school back in the early 90’s and it blew me away. It was the first big book I read multiple times and I credit that book with getting me into reading. I never liked that they split in half at one point.
GoT was also my very first introduction into something more than just cookie cutter fantasy and I fell in love with it and the genre. To me, it's much more fun to be confronted with a complex plot and complex characters that challenge you to really think about what's justifiable, what's right, etc as opposed to a story that holds your hand and spells it out clearly who's good and who's bad with no nuance to it
@@MrFredstt totally agree. I love stories like that too. I’m getting ready to start The First Law series. I’ve heard it’s one of the best in that gritty style.
Coldfire is magnificent, probably a Top 5 fantasy series for me. I can see how someone would describe it as Grimdark although it's as much sci fi and as much straight up horror as it is Grimdark. Some of the best characters I've ever read on page.
I loved the first three Song of Ice and Fire books and have hated the last two. When reading a story that jumps around to what is happening with so many characters, there will always be parts that you find more interesting than others but I couldn’t find much that was interesting at all in books 4 and 5. Even storylines of characters that had found interesting got tedious. I will have to hear some amazing things to bring me back because I would have to read the books again and I don’t want to read books 4 and 5 again.
Really great channel! My two cents: ASOIAF does meet the definition of grimdark if you go along and check off the boxes .... but it is so epic and universal that to label it with any sort of "niche" genre description almost seems to bring it down a notch. I mean if the grimdark label gets people to read it I'm all for it, but something like First Law has a much more niche flavor (to me) than ASOIAF. I love First Law too, but ASOIAF seems much wider in scope.
I must be one of the few who is not that into GoT. I'm much more a Tolkien and Abercrombie guy. Definitely will take a look at some of the series mentioned in the video.
I was steered to Game of Thrones by a friend of mine back in 2013. I was introduced to it by a friend of mine who knew I liked Spartacus and Lord of the Rings. Funny as the name Game of Throne initially didn't draw me in but it didn't push me away as well. However, getting into it - no name could fit it better. Good job by George R. R. Martin.
Just got done with a couple of Carmack McCarthy novels and thought about this review. If you like Abercrombie, try the Road or No Country for Old Men or Blood Meridian.
Not grimdark fantasy but would highly recommend Bernard Cornwell’s Harlequin series about English longbow archers. Real life Grimdark with some fantasy elements, brutal violence and great characters
This was a really great video Mike! I really hope you do a full review of The Darkness That Comes Before when you finish. I'm looking forward to your thoughts. I made a lengthy review and the second half explains the philosophy... just in case you're interested. :)
This is a video I've been keen for! For me it's Abercrombie, but I haven't read Baker yet so I need to get into his work. I'm going to have to check out the Peter McLean one as well as that sounds right up my alley.
Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
“Though it takes the last drop of my blood, I will see the galaxy freed once more. And if I cannot save it from your failure, Father, then let the galaxy BURN!"
Or my personal fav.. “They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.”
Anthony Ryan's Covenant of Steel (The Pariah, The Martyr, and The Traitor) is very good grimdark. It's closer to ASOIAF than First Law, but the character work is just so good, and Ryan's prose is great.
Just ordered "The Last War " series... Lets see what you are gushing about. Really enjoying "The Promise of Blood " at the moment. Greetings From South Africa! Thanks for your content.
One I just finished the first book for-a relatively short duology coming in at a total of 800 pages for both books-is Riven Earth by Zammar Ahmer. I highly recommend it. Indie published and very well written with amazing cover art and such a dynamic world that he introduces us to
I really enjoyed Beyond Redemption. I really click with his humour, and there’s some pretty disturbing, but interesting things that take place in the book. Witchtig gets all the best lines. His description of the small village right at the start of the book made me realise this was going to be a book / author for me. I’ve read the first 3 Bakker books. Very dark, with some things that are seared into my memory for ever. Very good books but I wouldn’t call it an ‘enjoybale’ read as it’s so dark.
Dude, I loved Beyond Redemption, it reminded me of Garth Ennis writing epic fantasy. Never encountered anything like it. I wish it had a bit more world building, but I haven't read the sequels yet so maybe they go deeper into it.
You will love Manifest Delusions. It's really good and the 'magic' is unlike anything I've read before. Grimdark just seems to have blurred lines on what is and isn't in the genre! It's becoming a polarising too. I do agree with Philip, Mslazan is not Grimdark, in with all the grim and dark people and plots, is compassion, hopefulness and good people!
@@Josheatsbooks Skullsworn especially is such an underrated GrimDark book for how short and powerful it is. But all 5 of them have been fantastic. An amazing story, he’s woven thus far!
@@SwagDragon1I overlooked Skullsworn because it didn’t seem part of the linear progression of the series, but now I will read it based on your recommendation! I’m so hungry for more from this world.
Awesome I’ve added some to my listening que. sounds like you have friends who read fantasy. I have zero friends who read fantasy and I often feel like the only people I can talk to are my children’s age when it comes to reading.
R. Scott Bakker is the absolute peak of Grimdark. There is nothing that comes even close to the level of cruelty and despair to the Second Apocalypse. And i really hope he will never wrote another sequel, cuz the absolutely hopeless open ending of The Unholy Consult was perfect.
Bakker, Erikson, Martin. May not be pigeonholed into grimdark but I've never experienced anything like the darkness portrayed and in the case of Martin and Bakker some brilliant real life historical parallels. These all changed the landscape for me despite having read Martin in the late 90s and and endured the subsequent decades long torture
What’s up my friend? It’s been a while. It’s your old buddy Seeker of Truth. Someone in the comments beat me to Elric, the original grimdark hero. Thomas Covenant I would not call grimdark because there are too many noble characters, although the main protagonist certainly has his issues, one big one in particular that you have to read to see. This character has reasons for his actions, that is all I will say. Mixed reviews on this series? There shouldn’t be any. It’s one the best fantasy series of all, period. Reading fantasy is not complete without reading it, in my opinion. Plus, even though it’s not quite grimdark, but some may consider it as such, you know I’m going to recommend the Sword of Truth series. Had to. Take care.
I’m not a grim dark fan or at least that’s what I thought. Over a year ago I read the First Law series on your recommendation. It was outstanding! Thank you for that. The only disappointment I had was that more was not written for Logan. Again thank you. ❤ What should I read next that has great characters like Logan and Glotka?
Man, if I knew the answer to that question I'd be a lot happier. Tyrion Lannister is the closest comparison to Glokta. I get some Conan out of Logen except Conan was never concerned about being a better person ha ha
After reading the "Altered Carbon" trilogy I found the series "A Land fit for Heroes by Richard Morgan. Speaking of dark world, violence, bad language and great characters - this is so much it.
Reading the first book of the Lot Lands at the moment and hating it. So far it's like watching a bunch of horny teens playing a Half-orc D&D campaign with a shade of Western.
Thanks for the recommendation for Anna Stephens set. I've been wanting to read a good set written by a female (nothing against the guys LOL ) but being that I'm getting ready to sit down and write a series that I'm outlining right now, I want to see what another lady has written. Plus I am sure I'll just enjoy a great series. I've ordered the first book. :) Thanks again!
If you're looking for some serious fantasy written by a woman, have you already tried something by Janny Wurts? Not really Grimdark, but she is a very underrated writer who was way ahead of the times in the 1980s.
@@federicogiana She had been suggested by a few youtubers previously and I didn't find the blurbs all that interesting. It might be because they were written in the 80s. I'll look and see if I can pick on up on Kindle :) I know she has several books. Is there any specific book you'd recommend?
@@coffee_cookies_books I discovered Wurts in her "Daughter of the Empire" series, nominally written with Raymond Feist. I absolutely loved that trilogy and that would be my recommendation, but I don't know if you like the exotic setting, that's basically an expy of Tekumel. More recently I've started her War of Light And Darkness series, but I took a break at the end of the first book. I needed a bit of breath because the story was too bleak, with everything doomed to end up in tragedy, but I plan to return to the series later. I see that the latter books are very recent, so I'm curious to see what she has done with the genre in the last few decades. I can see how the old blurbs (and the covers!) won't help her case, but she doesn't really pull punches.
Perhaps try on the Horus Heresy set in Warhammer 40k. I think you tried your hand at the Black Company but didn't like it. Mostly I have gotten my grimdark recs from you so I don't have anymore.
I somehow got the first two books in ASOIAF so I decided I try the other books just because it annouce me to have just the two. I still though have not decided if I will read it or not. On one hand I really liked the show but on the other hand I have read vary little fantasy and what I have that I liked are books like the dark tower, swan song and conan. So I am not sure if ASOIAF is up my alley.
When I read the first few chapters of Prince of Thorns, I was so sickened by the violence, I didn’t want to continue. But I did because 1). I paid for the e-book, 2). I was curious about HOW the author would change my sympathy for the main character, Jorg. Lawrence succeeded, and he also had me fascinated by the world-building, hinting that this is a post apocalyptic world.
I never really changed my opinion on Jorg, but I will admit I read almost the entire Prince of Thorns in one go because it was so cruel and nasty and was just a different vibe from other fantasy books. I finished the trilogy, but the problem I ran into is as the character changed(leaving vague for spoiler avoidance) I actually found it less interesting. I did finish it, but the story just really lost me, especially by the end. I had the same issue with Prince of Fools. Great first book that just got progressively more boring. No hate to ML, I just don't think he is for me.
I think i have read and listened to the first law 8 times now. In fact i have all the Glokta chapters in an audio file and often just play them to go to sleep too.
I love FL but I didn't like the sequel trilogy :/ bummed me out but by the end I felt like I'd traveled thousands of pages just to get to the same conclusion of the first trilogy, with nothing new really answered.
Has anyone read ‘Age of Madness’ which is latest trilogy from Joe Abercrombie? I heard it was great and wondering if it belongs in grimdark recommends?
Manifest Delusions trilogy is INSANE....absolutely INSANE. But be prepared for trying to keep the naming of each "condition" straight as they are very similar and hard to read...I think they are German words or come from words that are German...anyway, series is wildly insane...have fun.
It’s my personal favorite fantasy series. I don’t know if it is grim dark or not. I think to many of the main characters (though incredibly flawed) could be considered good people. It’s on that edge I say.
@@Fianna1775 me too that and first law are very close for my top spot! I think Geralt is a Logan ninefingers type character (bad guy trying to be good but not always succeeding) which is what led to me thinking it could be grim dark. The more I think about it the more I think it’s just dark fantasy but I love it, I think it has a similar humour to the first law I think dark gritty fantasy with hints of comedy is one of my fave things to read!
One thing I wish GrimDark would do more of is to make all their characters vulnerable to being "offed". ASoIAF, like you said, did it well when they offed a certain character relatively early on....because then it makes you scared for every other character, you know all characters are on the chopping block and you don't know what's going to happen for sure. The Last War trilogy also does this. Unfortunately a lot of GrimDark is GrimDark in all definitions except their main set of characters always survive...I love the stories where you just don't know what's going to happen and who is going to make it out alive.
Probably not the subgenre for me, but great video. I define grimdark as one having a consistent sense of hopelessness so I'm one of those people who didn't define ASOIAF as grimdark. 🤣 Probably my limit for multi-POV and graphic violence is ASOIAF. It is very good because I think it transcends that violence and people acting despicably and makes it into something much more meaningful. Another series I also liked a lot and didn't find grimdark though lots of readers do (manga this time, sadly incomplete as of today due to the untimely demise of the creator) is Berserk. I found Realm of the Elderlings guilty of the bleakness in many, many parts, especially with its key protagonists. Many people don't find it grimdark at all but that is one where at the end of 16 books, it felt like relentless emotional torture. First Law is the best example I agree in terms of intro to grimdark and PoN is the advanced mode I guess 🤭. These two are probably essential reads if someone wants to get into grimdark fantasy. Happy reading!
I thought that Grimdark was not for me as well. However; I read The First Law series and absolutely loved it. Now I’m looking for something new to read and can’t decide what to choose.
Anasurimbor Kellhus is a character I never understood. He is machine-like and unrelatable. But I think that's what makes him so intriguing - I wanted to like him throughout the series, but never really could.
Hey I love your content so I wanna recommend a series called warhammer 40k for space grimdark and there’s also fantasy if you want to read that more for space grimdark book you can read to get started is caiaphus cain the omnibus on eBay or Amazon for memes
You should definitely do a read along with manifest delusions. Without spoiling anything they are all fever dreams of insanity.Also if you want something on a shorter side give the novella In the Shadow of Their Dying he cowrote with Anna Smith Spark A shot its grimdark goodness condensed in 170 pages. Empire of dust has this dichocmy of this really pretty high fantasy descriptions of Life being wonderful and then it will throw you in the alley with heroin in your veins.
The Daughter's War is probably the darkest book I've read in awhile though. The characters aren't morally grey but the world is just brutal and dark. Goblins have never been done better.
Beyond Redemption was a great concept executed poorly People love it but I felt like it was really unengaging. Felt like reading a college play or something. The characters were seriously always just talking in rooms. Honeslty I think the opening scene with the "protagonists" walking up to an inn is the only exterior scene I can remember before I gave it up halfway through.
Daniel Polansky's Low town is probably right up your alley and might be better than most of what you got in the recommended pile. I think I read the manifest delusions books years ago and have no recollection of it whatsoever, same for the anna smith spark. I read the grey bastards this year and it's entertaining but ultimately very forgettable.
Glokta is the very definition of a Grimdark character. He is not a good man but we as readers cant help but root for him and love him.
Correct
What I love about Abercrombie is that he knows how to tell a dark tale, but also throws in humour at the right time. That sets him apart from some of the other series that is just depressingly dark.
Beyond Redemption is also on my TBR. I'm cautious though, because I believe I've heard it is a bit too nihilistic for my tastes.
Thanks for the vid Mike, your recs are always on my TBR.
Beyond Redemption is great👍
Bakker is the grim dark definition for me..
Oh boy does it ever get darker😬
A+ work!
Any darker and I'm going to need a flashlight while reading.
😆
The original is still the best! Glen Cook's "The Black Company" novels are at the top of the charts for me. You really get to feel what its like for mere mortal men to walk the earth along side the darkest of sorcerers and an evil which threatens to dominate the world. Some of the best fantasy ever written!
The Black Company Series is so Kick A***!!!!!!
I listened to The First Law series on Audiobook. Amazing narration, and I loved it. All 72 hours of it!
Oh wow, Coldfire. I read that so long ago, I had forgotten it. What about Shadow of the Torturer by Gene Wolfe?
I'm missing 100 pages on my kindle. The best series since Ice and Fire. I quit the Stormlight Archive after 4 books. I needed something else which was not high Fantasy. Boy did I find it in the First Law.
I really, REALLY wish you would start The Black Company by Glen Cook soon
I agree 100%
He's not going to like it. He didn't like marine part of Malazan and that's pretty much 100% Black Company inspired
@@alexwallachian7720 yeah, I know. But one can only hope, right? Maybe with The Black Company it could be different. Hopefully.
Malazan fans chased me off from it
@@mikesbookreviews it's so boring Mikey, trust me brosef.
I think the darkness and bleakness of the world is particularly necessary to showcase the motivations of the morally gray characters in GrimDark. Without it, they’re just villainous, self-serving people who do mostly horrible things. But against the backdrop, you can understand why they do what they do. How such a horrible world crafted such a twisted person. It’s not just the nihilism behind the points of view. It’s the reason behind it that makes it so special.
Right. Their behavior isn't wholly unbelievable in such a setting.
@@mikesbookreviews or even if hard to believe (like in the case of Logan going absolutely berserk and walking through everything in his path), at least it’s understandable at some level!
Bakker is the darkest tale you can find and the bleakest but grimdark is such a restraining term for its content. Its so thought provoking, experimental, philosophical, grand scope and meta. Its amazing
I'm looking forward to diving in
Since you mentioned it but didn’t include it on this list, I’m taking this as your admission that Malazan isn’t Grimdark. 😁 Excellent list, Mike! I’m following your Second Apocalypse read with much interest!
But is Beowulf grimdark...
@@EricMcLuen Ha ha! If you’re Grendel, it is.
I mentioned it in the video ha ha
no its just not one of his favorites Phil
@@EricMcLuenI think if we lingered a bit more on the 12 years of Danish decimation at Grendel’s hand, it certainly could be. The novel, Grendel, is largely set during this time period but it definitely strives to be more philosophical.
Thanks for the list. I'm just finishing the First Law Trilogy now. Joe Abercrombie's a genius.
I read his Half a King trilogy first on a recommend from a friend, enjoyed it, but not as much as First Law.
He is great . Sadly, he has become another woke buffoon and his latest works show it
I know Mark Lawrence wasn’t your cup of tea, but The Broken Empire trilogy was my non GoT introduction to grimdark. Excited to add Abercrombie and Shackle to my list.
I'm about 300 pages into The Darkness Comes Before and I'm absolutely loving it. I wouldn't say there's much hope to be found in this one though lol
Thanks for this video and for your channel. I very much appreciate your opinions and your honesty. I’m a relative newbie to fantasy and have found that I love grim dark. The First Law was the gateway series for me and now I can’t get enough of fantasy and grim dark. Keep up the good work Mike.
I will definitely read Betond Redemption with you! And will probably read The Darkness that Comes Before as well!!
Great points on ASOIAF. As one reads through the books, one reconsiders various characters against a more complex moral landscape. Without overstating it, some of them felt almost Shakespearean in their complex value systems. And when they clashed, who or what I was rooting for became more vague at times.
Yes! I LOVED the War For the Rose Throne quartet. Amazing series, and Tomas Piety is one of my favorite narrators in fantasy.
Thanks Mike! I just read the sample of the Court of Broken Knives and it flowed really well, total first law vibes
100 pages into that one and I think it rocks!
I understand through reading through the comment section that the Black Company series isn't on your radar but I do wonder what your take on it would be. Granted after reading through a good chunk of the series that it certainly isn't one for everyone but I certainly find it to have interesting characters and lore.
Your feedback, even on books I haven't read, is very important to me. I like your opening bit about what grimdark really is, you have said before as well that too many books are marked horror that really arent.
Thank you for trying to make the definition clear, or more clear. I'm a relatively new fantasy reader trying to figure out what my TBR is going to be. I even audited a fantasy course, which included ASOIAF, and it was just too much for me. Characters who are morally grey, cool; dark setting, amazing; but apparently I have limits on the amount of violence I can take - go figure! I wish I could know which ones I would enjoy without having a bunch of DNF's that I just had to stop due to my level of discomfort.
I agree with your observation about The Broken Empire trilogy. The only thing I was rooting for was the ending. Unfortunately, I DNF'd half way through Emperor of Thorns. The only thing I regretted was that I didn't do it sooner! Just finished an engaging triology which I think is on the 'lighter side' of grimdark - RJ Barker's The Child Tide trilogy. Not a lotta laffs and definitely morally grey.
Awesome list Mike! Going to get into Bakker here soon.
Perhaps one of thr most grimdark things I have read was actually historical fiction and that was 'Agincourt' by Bernard Cornwell. Just a reminder that the real world is often worse than most anything an author can come up with.
Cornwell is solid. Certainly want to read more by him.
Oh, man! Just got to the Coldfire part. So pumped for you to read that!
Should be fun!
I loved the Coldfire trilogy when I read it back in the late 90's . I don't recall it being grimdark, though.
@@mysticolin01 Yeah, you're right. It's really not Grimdark. It's more like 80s science fantasy.
I read the Court of Broken Knives trilogy. I'm one who liked the first book the most, the second book a little less, and third one not that much. However, her prose is fantastic. I can't say that enough. I'm definitely interesting in reading more of her work.
What I heard about book 3 really raised some red flags.
Black Company series is one of my top 2 favorites, in my opinion each book gets better and better as you read them. You can't just read the first book; you definitely need to read the first three at least, but I recommend the entire series.
Mike, I see Imajica in the bottom shelf behind you. I read that when I was in high school back in the early 90’s and it blew me away. It was the first big book I read multiple times and I credit that book with getting me into reading. I never liked that they split in half at one point.
I love Imajica!! It had a strong influence on my own world building.
@@mysticolin01 I haven’t read it in forever. Have you? I’d love to know if it still holds up.
GoT was also my very first introduction into something more than just cookie cutter fantasy and I fell in love with it and the genre. To me, it's much more fun to be confronted with a complex plot and complex characters that challenge you to really think about what's justifiable, what's right, etc as opposed to a story that holds your hand and spells it out clearly who's good and who's bad with no nuance to it
@@MrFredstt totally agree. I love stories like that too. I’m getting ready to start The First Law series. I’ve heard it’s one of the best in that gritty style.
Coldfire is magnificent, probably a Top 5 fantasy series for me. I can see how someone would describe it as Grimdark although it's as much sci fi and as much straight up horror as it is Grimdark. Some of the best characters I've ever read on page.
I loved the first three Song of Ice and Fire books and have hated the last two. When reading a story that jumps around to what is happening with so many characters, there will always be parts that you find more interesting than others but I couldn’t find much that was interesting at all in books 4 and 5. Even storylines of characters that had found interesting got tedious. I will have to hear some amazing things to bring me back because I would have to read the books again and I don’t want to read books 4 and 5 again.
Great list! I'd probably add Five Warrior Angels even if some say it's not grimdark.
I think the protagonists were too "good" for me to put it there. But it's definitely adult fantasy.
Fantastic list! Added some more to my Grimdark TBR. First Law is my favorite too and I hadn't heard of some of these! Thanks for making this video!
Really great channel! My two cents: ASOIAF does meet the definition of grimdark if you go along and check off the boxes .... but it is so epic and universal that to label it with any sort of "niche" genre description almost seems to bring it down a notch. I mean if the grimdark label gets people to read it I'm all for it, but something like First Law has a much more niche flavor (to me) than ASOIAF. I love First Law too, but ASOIAF seems much wider in scope.
Right. I think it leans more Epic fantasy, but that world and the characters certainly apply.
I must be one of the few who is not that into GoT. I'm much more a Tolkien and Abercrombie guy. Definitely will take a look at some of the series mentioned in the video.
I was steered to Game of Thrones by a friend of mine back in 2013. I was introduced to it by a friend of mine who knew I liked Spartacus and Lord of the Rings. Funny as the name Game of Throne initially didn't draw me in but it didn't push me away as well. However, getting into it - no name could fit it better. Good job by George R. R. Martin.
I really hope they end up adapting the First Law. I think they will if Best Served Cold does well. Great video Mike.
You and me both!
Just got done with a couple of Carmack McCarthy novels and thought about this review. If you like Abercrombie, try the Road or No Country for Old Men or Blood Meridian.
Not grimdark fantasy but would highly recommend Bernard Cornwell’s Harlequin series about English longbow archers. Real life Grimdark with some fantasy elements, brutal violence and great characters
This was a really great video Mike! I really hope you do a full review of The Darkness That Comes Before when you finish. I'm looking forward to your thoughts. I made a lengthy review and the second half explains the philosophy... just in case you're interested. :)
This is a video I've been keen for! For me it's Abercrombie, but I haven't read Baker yet so I need to get into his work. I'm going to have to check out the Peter McLean one as well as that sounds right up my alley.
Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
I'll get to Warhammer someday.
Where should a newbie start do you think?
“Though it takes the last drop of my blood, I will see the galaxy freed once more. And if I cannot save it from your failure, Father, then let the galaxy BURN!"
Or my personal fav..
“They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.”
@@Fianna1775 the The Horus Heresy books are top tier
Anthony Ryan's Covenant of Steel (The Pariah, The Martyr, and The Traitor) is very good grimdark. It's closer to ASOIAF than First Law, but the character work is just so good, and Ryan's prose is great.
I've heard great things!
Love that series. Just finished the new spinoff that just came out. Loved it
Just ordered "The Last War " series... Lets see what you are gushing about. Really enjoying "The Promise of Blood " at the moment. Greetings From South Africa! Thanks for your content.
One I just finished the first book for-a relatively short duology coming in at a total of 800 pages for both books-is Riven Earth by Zammar Ahmer. I highly recommend it.
Indie published and very well written with amazing cover art and such a dynamic world that he introduces us to
I've heard great things
I really enjoyed Beyond Redemption. I really click with his humour, and there’s some pretty disturbing, but interesting things that take place in the book. Witchtig gets all the best lines. His description of the small village right at the start of the book made me realise this was going to be a book / author for me.
I’ve read the first 3 Bakker books. Very dark, with some things that are seared into my memory for ever. Very good books but I wouldn’t call it an ‘enjoybale’ read as it’s so dark.
It sounds interesting, for sure.
Dude, I loved Beyond Redemption, it reminded me of Garth Ennis writing epic fantasy. Never encountered anything like it. I wish it had a bit more world building, but I haven't read the sequels yet so maybe they go deeper into it.
You will love Manifest Delusions. It's really good and the 'magic' is unlike anything I've read before.
Grimdark just seems to have blurred lines on what is and isn't in the genre! It's becoming a polarising too. I do agree with Philip, Mslazan is not Grimdark, in with all the grim and dark people and plots, is compassion, hopefulness and good people!
I've heard great things!
Also I feel obligated to mention Brian Staveley's Chronicles Of The Unhewn Throne. Very gritty and grim shit. Love to hear your thoughts one day
@@Josheatsbooks Skullsworn especially is such an underrated GrimDark book for how short and powerful it is. But all 5 of them have been fantastic. An amazing story, he’s woven thus far!
I own it! But that certainly ups my interest in getting it on the schedule.
I am so looking forward to the next book in the series after Empire’s Ruin! I can’t find a pre-pub date for the next book😢.
@@SwagDragon1I overlooked Skullsworn because it didn’t seem part of the linear progression of the series, but now I will read it based on your recommendation! I’m so hungry for more from this world.
@kathyechavarria4367 oh yeah it's my most anticipated book. Empire's Ruin was one of the best books I've read
Awesome I’ve added some to my listening que. sounds like you have friends who read fantasy. I have zero friends who read fantasy and I often feel like the only people I can talk to are my children’s age when it comes to reading.
I love me some Grimdark! And I love hearing you talk about it. Haha
Thanks for all the recommendations, Mike! Hoping to get to grim dark soon!
Enjoy!
R. Scott Bakker is the absolute peak of Grimdark. There is nothing that comes even close to the level of cruelty and despair to the Second Apocalypse.
And i really hope he will never wrote another sequel, cuz the absolutely hopeless open ending of The Unholy Consult was perfect.
Sounds fun.
Too sensitive? Dang.
stop spoiling chump
A Land Fit for Heroes is also quite awesome and very grimdark.
I've heard this many times
@@mikesbookreviews Some of the best prose in the game. Some graphic sex though.
Bakker, Erikson, Martin. May not be pigeonholed into grimdark but I've never experienced anything like the darkness portrayed and in the case of Martin and Bakker some brilliant real life historical parallels. These all changed the landscape for me despite having read Martin in the late 90s and and endured the subsequent decades long torture
Try reading the "Black Tongued Thief." I think you'll like it.
Interesting picks. I remember a time when you couldn't look at a grimdark list without seeing Mark Lawrence, interesting he didn't make the cut.
I admire him as a writer and a human. But neither of the series of his I've read have really clicked with me. But I'll always rec his books to others.
@@mikesbookreviews oh, didn't know he didn't work for you. Makes sense.
Awesome list Mike!
I have only read The First Law and A Song Of Ice And Fire. Definitely starting to like grim dark a lot more
Those are the gateways, for sure
Hi Mike. One recommendation for you. It's a 5 book series by Daniel Abraham 'The Dagger and the Coin'. Enjoy 👍
I’m reading a game of thrones right now after you and John encouraged it. 😊
First Law. Love glokta and the bloody nine and the rest of the crew
We are the dead is great
Adding some of these to the TBR
Please get into the Coldfire Trilogy. It’s nutso. Space. Vampires. Fears manifest into monsters. It’s great.
It's also a bit of a slog imo.
Sounds awesome!
Loved the first two
What’s up my friend? It’s been a while. It’s your old buddy Seeker of Truth. Someone in the comments beat me to Elric, the original grimdark hero. Thomas Covenant I would not call grimdark because there are too many noble characters, although the main protagonist certainly has his issues, one big one in particular that you have to read to see. This character has reasons for his actions, that is all I will say. Mixed reviews on this series? There shouldn’t be any. It’s one the best fantasy series of all, period. Reading fantasy is not complete without reading it, in my opinion. Plus, even though it’s not quite grimdark, but some may consider it as such, you know I’m going to recommend the Sword of Truth series. Had to. Take care.
I'm definitely looking forward to your thoughts on the Bakker book. I've been torn as to whether that one is one for me or not.
I’m not a grim dark fan or at least that’s what I thought. Over a year ago I read the First Law series on your recommendation. It was outstanding! Thank you for that. The only disappointment I had was that more was not written for Logan. Again thank you. ❤ What should I read next that has great characters like Logan and Glotka?
Man, if I knew the answer to that question I'd be a lot happier. Tyrion Lannister is the closest comparison to Glokta. I get some Conan out of Logen except Conan was never concerned about being a better person ha ha
Where is The Black Company?
I think u should read the darkness that comes before on its own without reading something with it, sounds like a dense read.
I'm finishing up Mercy of Gods and then that is what is happening for the rest of the month
Blackwing by Ed McDonald! (Raven's Mark series)
Brilliant series.
I've gotten this rec a few times
After reading the "Altered Carbon" trilogy I found the series "A Land fit for Heroes by Richard Morgan. Speaking of dark world, violence, bad language and great characters - this is so much it.
The Lot Lands is great! One of my first Grimdark reads. Looking forward to getting your thoughts on the series.
Will do when I get there.
Reading the first book of the Lot Lands at the moment and hating it.
So far it's like watching a bunch of horny teens playing a Half-orc D&D campaign with a shade of Western.
thx for the new recommendations!
Happy to help!
Sweet Sejenus
Thanks for the recommendation for Anna Stephens set. I've been wanting to read a good set written by a female (nothing against the guys LOL ) but being that I'm getting ready to sit down and write a series that I'm outlining right now, I want to see what another lady has written. Plus I am sure I'll just enjoy a great series. I've ordered the first book. :) Thanks again!
If you're looking for some serious fantasy written by a woman, have you already tried something by Janny Wurts? Not really Grimdark, but she is a very underrated writer who was way ahead of the times in the 1980s.
@@federicogiana She had been suggested by a few youtubers previously and I didn't find the blurbs all that interesting. It might be because they were written in the 80s. I'll look and see if I can pick on up on Kindle :) I know she has several books. Is there any specific book you'd recommend?
@@coffee_cookies_books I discovered Wurts in her "Daughter of the Empire" series, nominally written with Raymond Feist. I absolutely loved that trilogy and that would be my recommendation, but I don't know if you like the exotic setting, that's basically an expy of Tekumel.
More recently I've started her War of Light And Darkness series, but I took a break at the end of the first book. I needed a bit of breath because the story was too bleak, with everything doomed to end up in tragedy, but I plan to return to the series later. I see that the latter books are very recent, so I'm curious to see what she has done with the genre in the last few decades.
I can see how the old blurbs (and the covers!) won't help her case, but she doesn't really pull punches.
@@federicogiana Thanks so much. I'll have a look at the ones you've mentioned. I also might start with her more recent work first. :)
Perhaps try on the Horus Heresy set in Warhammer 40k. I think you tried your hand at the Black Company but didn't like it. Mostly I have gotten my grimdark recs from you so I don't have anymore.
What did you think of Atticus Noble in Rebel Moon? I watched the director cut. Zach is funny, giving Atticus the surname Noble.😆
I somehow got the first two books in ASOIAF so I decided I try the other books just because it annouce me to have just the two. I still though have not decided if I will read it or not. On one hand I really liked the show but on the other hand I have read vary little fantasy and what I have that I liked are books like the dark tower, swan song and conan. So I am not sure if ASOIAF is up my alley.
So many great options out there, so I'd recommend not forcing it if you aren't feeling it.
Love last war,finally starting First law and then ASOIAF next
Buckle up!
I’ll recommend the Raven’s Mark trilogy by Ed McDonald.
Who did you root for in Game of Thrones?
I need to get the Godblind series on my TBR.
I think you'd like it!
excellent video mike, thanks.. GRIMDARK FANS: READ THE ASH AND SAND TRILOGY!
When I read the first few chapters of Prince of Thorns, I was so sickened by the violence, I didn’t want to continue. But I did because 1). I paid for the e-book, 2). I was curious about HOW the author would change my sympathy for the main character, Jorg. Lawrence succeeded, and he also had me fascinated by the world-building, hinting that this is a post apocalyptic world.
I never really changed my opinion on Jorg, but I will admit I read almost the entire Prince of Thorns in one go because it was so cruel and nasty and was just a different vibe from other fantasy books. I finished the trilogy, but the problem I ran into is as the character changed(leaving vague for spoiler avoidance) I actually found it less interesting. I did finish it, but the story just really lost me, especially by the end. I had the same issue with Prince of Fools. Great first book that just got progressively more boring. No hate to ML, I just don't think he is for me.
I think i have read and listened to the first law 8 times now. In fact i have all the Glokta chapters in an audio file and often just play them to go to sleep too.
I love FL but I didn't like the sequel trilogy :/ bummed me out but by the end I felt like I'd traveled thousands of pages just to get to the same conclusion of the first trilogy, with nothing new really answered.
Bakker takes grimdark to another level
So I'm learning.
Hey Mike, have you ever looked into the warhammer 40k universe?
Has anyone read ‘Age of Madness’ which is latest trilogy from Joe Abercrombie? I heard it was great and wondering if it belongs in grimdark recommends?
Manifest Delusions trilogy is INSANE....absolutely INSANE. But be prepared for trying to keep the naming of each "condition" straight as they are very similar and hard to read...I think they are German words or come from words that are German...anyway, series is wildly insane...have fun.
Oh boy.
Reading the Witcher books atm and loving them! Do you like the series? And would it be considered grim dark?
I wouldn't. I thought it started strong but I lost interest after Time of Contempt.
It’s my personal favorite fantasy series. I don’t know if it is grim dark or not. I think to many of the main characters (though incredibly flawed) could be considered good people. It’s on that edge I say.
@@Fianna1775 me too that and first law are very close for my top spot! I think Geralt is a Logan ninefingers type character (bad guy trying to be good but not always succeeding) which is what led to me thinking it could be grim dark. The more I think about it the more I think it’s just dark fantasy but I love it, I think it has a similar humour to the first law I think dark gritty fantasy with hints of comedy is one of my fave things to read!
The first laws my gold standard as well
One thing I wish GrimDark would do more of is to make all their characters vulnerable to being "offed". ASoIAF, like you said, did it well when they offed a certain character relatively early on....because then it makes you scared for every other character, you know all characters are on the chopping block and you don't know what's going to happen for sure. The Last War trilogy also does this. Unfortunately a lot of GrimDark is GrimDark in all definitions except their main set of characters always survive...I love the stories where you just don't know what's going to happen and who is going to make it out alive.
If your grimdark characters have plot armor I can lose interest quick
Godblind is so freaking dark 😅 I loved it!
I thought the second book was great. An entire book based around a siege was a cool idea.
Probably not the subgenre for me, but great video.
I define grimdark as one having a consistent sense of hopelessness so I'm one of those people who didn't define ASOIAF as grimdark. 🤣 Probably my limit for multi-POV and graphic violence is ASOIAF. It is very good because I think it transcends that violence and people acting despicably and makes it into something much more meaningful. Another series I also liked a lot and didn't find grimdark though lots of readers do (manga this time, sadly incomplete as of today due to the untimely demise of the creator) is Berserk.
I found Realm of the Elderlings guilty of the bleakness in many, many parts, especially with its key protagonists. Many people don't find it grimdark at all but that is one where at the end of 16 books, it felt like relentless emotional torture.
First Law is the best example I agree in terms of intro to grimdark and PoN is the advanced mode I guess 🤭. These two are probably essential reads if someone wants to get into grimdark fantasy.
Happy reading!
Liveships definitely grimdark.
I thought that Grimdark was not for me as well. However; I read The First Law series and absolutely loved it. Now I’m looking for something new to read and can’t decide what to choose.
Sure. If you aren't in a good place it can trigger a depression just due to the setting.
I'm pretty sure I see a Black Company book behind you on your bookshelf......
Anasurimbor Kellhus is a character I never understood. He is machine-like and unrelatable. But I think that's what makes him so intriguing - I wanted to like him throughout the series, but never really could.
Hey I love your content so I wanna recommend a series called warhammer 40k for space grimdark and there’s also fantasy if you want to read that more for space grimdark book you can read to get started is caiaphus cain the omnibus on eBay or Amazon for memes
You should definitely do a read along with manifest delusions. Without spoiling anything they are all fever dreams of insanity.Also if you want something on a shorter side give the novella In the Shadow of Their Dying he cowrote with Anna Smith Spark A shot its grimdark goodness condensed in 170 pages.
Empire of dust has this dichocmy of this really pretty high fantasy descriptions of Life being wonderful and then it will throw you in the alley with heroin in your veins.
The Five Warrior Angel's series is good grim dark. Beer mug is the bestest of boys and Liz Hen my favorite tavern winch.
The Daughter's War is probably the darkest book I've read in awhile though. The characters aren't morally grey but the world is just brutal and dark. Goblins have never been done better.
YESSS LOVE THIS VIDEO!!!
Thanks!
Beyond Redemption was a great concept executed poorly People love it but I felt like it was really unengaging. Felt like reading a college play or something. The characters were seriously always just talking in rooms. Honeslty I think the opening scene with the "protagonists" walking up to an inn is the only exterior scene I can remember before I gave it up halfway through.
I’m reading black company right now . Isn’t that a standard in grim dark?
It is a roots of grimdark
Daniel Polansky's Low town is probably right up your alley and might be better than most of what you got in the recommended pile. I think I read the manifest delusions books years ago and have no recollection of it whatsoever, same for the anna smith spark. I read the grey bastards this year and it's entertaining but ultimately very forgettable.
Heard that before. Bought it on digital.
Great call!
I loved the first law trilogy