Was a 6th man the MVP of a dynasty? | Offensive Legends Ep. 6
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2023
- How good was Manu Ginobili? Would he have been seen as a superstar if he played on another team? Why did he come off the bench and play fewer minutes? And was he actually the most valuable Spurs during his prime?
This episode is part of the the second season of the "Greatest Peaks" series. Season 2 focuses on the legends of NBA offense, examining unique archetypes, controversial players and stylistic spearheads who have influenced the game over the years.
Footage: www.usasportsondvd.com
Support at Patreon: / thinkingbasketball
Book: www.amazon.com/Thinking-Baske...
Podcast: player.fm/series/thinking-bas... or at www.stitcher.com/podcast/ben-...
Website: www.backpicks.com
Twitter: @elgee35
Ben Taylor is the author of Thinking Basketball, a Nylon Calculus contributor, creator of the Backpicks Top 40 series & host of the Thinking Basketball podcast.
Stats courtesy:
www.pbpstats.com @bballport
www.basketball-reference.com
stats.nba.com
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Footage in this video is owned by the NBA and its partners. It is intended for critique and education.
Music:
Epiphany (Cody Martin)
Didekbeats (Nemesis)
Detour in Velour (Fairlight)
Hair (Fairlight)
#ThinkingBasketball #OffensiveLegends - Спорт
On the issue of playing vs starters or bench units:
In the sample in the video ('04-08), Duncan played 73% of his minutes w/out Manu vs 4 or 5 starters, Manu just 28% w/out Duncan. So Manu played against more bench units. BUT, Ginobili was +8 per 100 vs "starters" and Duncan was -5 per 100 vs "starters."
Manu also played more WITH bench players (3, 4 or 5 bench players), logging 48% of his Duncan minutes like that, compared to just 7% of Duncan's Manu-less minutes. Again, Manu was +2 per 100 in those minutes "with reserves", Duncan -14 per 100 in his "with reserves" minutes.
So I don't think bottom-feeding explains the numbers. I think shooting luck is a bigger factor in those small samples (600 minutes for Manu), and Ginobili's lineups had some, but I don't think that explains the phenomenon in the video.
It's insane how deeply and accurately you do your research. Great great work, i show lots of your videos to the teams i coach as essencial learning tools and also hoping and knowing it will light a passion for the game, seeing how beautiful it is.
I know you've done things on Larry Bird but he's for sure a unique archetype, played pure basketball similar to Ginobili, Luka (he's the perfect combination of pure basketball with modern guard and overall skills, and of course Jokic)
This has become my favorite series
Thanks, not sure how I missed this explanation - I think I asked my question after you had already answered so my bad. Thanks for the bball info and work, super informative & entertaining.
Can't believe you didn't throw in Manu's game winning block on Harden in the playoffs when talking about his defense.
I believe Manu is the only NBA player ever to swat a bat out of the air also.... this guy was so quick he was faster than SONAR. 😂
I was not expecting a Ginobili video, but he absolutely deserves it. What a great player.
He is literally in the introductory video😂
Lol wut? The 2nd episode of this series was about Reggie Miller.
ONG💯WASNT EVEN EXPECTING A VIDEO AT ALL TILL I JUS SEEN THIS NOTI POP UP IM LIKE ONG BET😈😈😈
It makes me wonder why these 3 or 2 ( Duncan ginobli) aren't mentioned more in basketball convos
3rd best shooting guard ever behind MJ and Kobe. Def better then wade and harden
There is an old story/article (Sports Illustrated i belive, can't rememeber), that former Houston Rockets manager Daryl Morey (the father of the 3pt game we suffer today), requested 2 analytic companies to research player tendencies for him to prepare the team before the games. The studies showed that every player had at least 1 or 2 strong tendencies, for example Lebron when receives the ball in the 3pt line on the upper left of the court will fake a penetration and shoot a 3pt in 68% of those situations. Curry will catch and shoot coming out from a screen in 55% of those situations and so... all players had a tendency...all but 1, Manu. The guy never did the same thing 2 times in a game. It was described as "pure versatility, and unpredictable" . AMZING VIDEO.
One of the best basketball analyses I've ever seen. Few people understand why Ginobili is one of the most underrated basketball greats ever.
He made a lot of mistakes in games too. That is why he was a bench player. Also his style of play isn't good as a starter. He had no responsiblity really. Pop did that on purpose for him and kept him a bench player that could just play like Suaranous Marcilonous So he could just drive everytime and not have to think.
Also the Spurs had the Star Power anyway with Duncan who is on any other team a 28 / 12 / 3 MVP as was Parker on any other team a 28 / 7 / 5 player. Also Ginobili on any other team would've been more like 18-20 / 6 / 5 / 2. Still not the dominate Scorers than Parker and Duncan were.
@@JimBrave-ri1oche won a gold medal at the Olympics being a starter... And won USA team... Facts are facts. He was a legend. Underrated player ever.
@@JimBrave-ri1oc It is not like this. In fact, in the 2005 finals against the Pistons he was the true MVP and was part of the starting five.
What happened is that Pop realized that coming off the bench he was essential for the team's play, even more so, because of the revulsive power he had.
In all the videos Pop explains it well.
And Manu accepted it even though he could have been the franchise player on another team, with much higher numbers that the only thing he would do was feed his ego and nothing more.
But Manu did it because he loved the Spurs, their game, the spirit of that team and the collective achievements.
In short, the essence of the Spurs
@@marceloechegaray2806 Tim went 20 and 11 with 2 blocks and changed another 15 shots per game. he shut down rasheed and Ben. Also Shut down Prince. Tim Duncan is the Best player in the NBA from 99-07. Manu was their second best player in 05 and got to about the 20th best from 04 to 06.
@@JimBrave-ri1oc just false tbh. duncan was great but he was not the best player for any long period of time.
Thank you for this. Nobody has ever done Manu justice. He’s my second favorite player all time just because when he’s in the game I cannot take my eyes off him
He is my favorite player right above Penny Hardaway (only because Penny only had 3 great years). I always loved pretending to build all time teams with Manu as my lead guard. He fits with anyone because he's a two way player who just wants to win at all costs. Incredible ceiling raiser for any team with championship aspirations.
@@bdww4072 you’re absolutely right he was the perfect 2 guard. Could do anything you asked of him and was super flashy as well if I could play like any nba player if would definitely be Manu
Episode 6 is the best 6th man. I see what you did there.
Manu made amazing play after amazing play
I am a Lakers and Kobe fan, but Manu was a bad MF and a killer, and weirdly, my 2nd favorite player of the later Kobe era.
I met Manu at Best Buy many years ago. He was looking for a laptop and I was just a customer. At the time, I was stationed there at Fort Sam Houston working (burn nurse) at Brooke Army Medical Center. Anyway, Manu let me call a friend who was a BIG MG fan. Manu talked with him for a minute and life was great. He's a very nice, genuine man. That's what I remember about the man. On the basketball court, absolute LEGEND.
I feel like everyone from San Antonio has a Manu or Timmy story! My mom ran into him at a dog park. My Spurs story was meeting Pop at a wine tasting as a kid haha
I lived in Dallas when Manu was in his prime. It was hard being a Mavs fan with the Spurs always being right there and so good. And Manu was the worst. Parker and Duncan, you knew what they were gonna bring. But Manu was the wild card. Whenever it seemed like the Mavs were winning, Manu would pull something crazy out of his ass and beat us back down. There was no one that scared me more than Manu Ginobili.
Aint this the truth. As much as it used to hurt I cant deny he looked cool as shit doing it. Cant tell you how many times I tried to do that Euro/Behind the back as a teen.
As a reds fan this is exactly how I feel about yadier Molina and Albert pujols. This tells me all I need to know about the man
He even helped the mavs win the series when he fouled dirk lol they would’ve won that year also but glad dirk got one
White men can’t jump? 😂
Scared you? Bro did you even play in the league? 😂
Manu was the primary reason why the Spurs offense never seemed to stall. He was most creative when stuff hits the fan.
He was too wild in 2013 which cost them.
@@ripdeth True but its the cost you pay for a unique talent who can make stuff happen even in big moments. Too often the player is very talented but doesn't have the hand-eye/creativity to try something off cuff and be brave enough to repeat the situation and execute it better.
@@ripdeth2013 wasn't lost because of a single person, it was the little things that everyone wasn't able to do... the team said that during their 2014 pre season..
@@sirbolero Unfortunately I hate to say it, but Manu did contribute to the Spurs not winning in 2013. I remember that he got cold at the wrong time and players were even saying that Pop should have inserted Steven Jackson into the lineup to see if he could at least give them something better from deep.
That being said, the Spurs still should have won that 2013 finals, but thank god they destroyed the Heat the following year.
@@ripdeth I wouldn't say wild. I would say he got cold at the wrong time. Props to him though for finding his way back the following year, at the age of 36 no less.
Manu could of easily been a 25ppg/8apg superstar in the league. The most impressive part of his creativity is that it wasn’t planned out, he wasn’t out there thinking he was out there flowing. Beautiful player to watch
Yup players like to be flashy to look good, he was the only one who was flashy for actual benefits
He probably would've been a better version of Harden. Can you imagine him playing in a D'antoni offense similar to Harden's playstyle?
@@4392amtraknah he excelled in the movement heavy spurs offense, a team centered around his playstyle and quick thinking needs to introduce some chaos. dantoni teams(specially like the ones in houston) wouldve put too much creation on his hands which would take away his cutting,extra passing and spotting up, he was great at pick and roll but if that was all he ran he wouldnt be as effective imo.
@@4392amtrak I’d say more Steve Nash than Harden. Harden was a slow paced iso-style creator while Nash was just constantly moving and attacking, putting 24/7 pressure on defenses, Manu fits more of that “constant pressure attack” style.
He chose winning championships over personal stats which makes him one of the goats of all time and he's the best left-handed player to ever play in the league Not James harden
Manu could've gone the James Harden route and been THE man on another team. But he chose to continue the culture of the Spurs way and never, ever thought of leaving San Antonio. The ultimate "team before me" player
He chose to stay on the team that he already won 3 rings with. Idk how that is surprising or notable to you at all.
@TimJorgensen850 There was a time where he was considered one of the best SG in the game, like right behind Kobe. A player with that pedigree usually will consider moves in free agency to get paid and to be THE man on the team. Manu wasn't about that life, he was all team ball
@@TimJorgensen850 bruh even if you win rings you'd have the desire to gain recognition
@@justinadviento1404
he was never considered the second best SG lol maybe 5th
@@jamalwalkerfifth is good enough to be a top star on another team. That's behind Kobe Wade Ray actually don't know who the fourth SG should be....
High impact is more valuable than high stats.
Manu is the poster child of impact.
It feels special for us Spurs fans to see Manu's recognized.
Thank you.
my favorite player of all time, i remember pretending to be sick and not going to school just to watch him play on our small tv. Manu is one of the hilights of my childhood. im a big Spurs fan because of him.
No doubt Top 75 all time. A winner on every place he played (even gold medal). He popularized the eurostep in the nba and made miracles in Argentina's team.
Top 75? I think you are not seeing the picture correctly buddy. When it comes to SG, Manu is top 5. His accolades are INSANE. Start naming 74 players with bigger accolades than Manu (needless to say, the stats shown on this video, about his REAL impact on the teams he played)
They added freaking Damian Lillard who absolutely achieved nothing in his 11 year career.
I consider him top 5 as well. His impact on the game was beyond the scoresheet@@constructionnetwork6858
He was an absolutely amazing player. The Jamal Crawford of the NBA.
No offense but you're not seeing the complete aspect of a TEAM sport if you think it's 75. Top of 20 of all time, and probably top 5 SG of all time. Obviously many part of his impact can't be measured by Stats compared to the other greats but when it comes down to bringing home a ring AND making the other 11 guys better players, I want Manu on my dream any day.
Words cannot express how happy I am to see an episode on Manu. Well done!
Same 🔥
Kaw
I wanna cry. Being from SA and a lefty, Manu is my favorite player of all time. The way he played just enthralled me when he was on the court. Thank you for highlighting what a great player he was.
Honestly, I do feel like Manu should've won the finals mvp in 05 his ability to score so effectively with the lack of shots against such a great defense should've been rewarded.
I agree. Parker was good, but manus impact was seen on the court and even more in the on/offs. He was the most impactful
@@isaactesfaye9760Timmy won, but yeah should've gone to Manu
@@nanox4 yup the thing is he should’ve won but honestly I don’t think he cared. He’s one of a kind
I agree. Kinda sucks because now people who didn’t watch those teams assume Manu was the 3rd guy when he was in fact consistently more impactful than TP
@@isaactesfaye9760impact metrics werent really taken into account back then, mostly box score
"I LOVE Manu. He plays just the way I do, balls to the wall"- Kobe Bryant.
Manu is the definition of a great player whose stats don't tell the whole story. Everyone that watched him play during those 2000s Spurs years, knew he was often the best and most impactful player on the floor. His skillset rivals many all stars and even some superstars, no weak point offensively. An absolute joy to watch
This comment is such a downplay to what the whole video already stated that I wonder if you watched the whole thing? Manus skillset more than rivals many all stars (btw he was an all star) and as the whole video aimed to point out....he was a super star himself. Honestly my favorite player of all time along with Penny Hardaway so I am biased but I feel like you didn't really understand the video if that's what your conclusion was.
@@bdww4072 I commented this like 6-7 mins into the video, so you got me there lol. And yeah I like Penny too, though I'm too young to have watched him at his peak
@@bdww4072 relax man he still said he’s nice af lol
Vid already showed he was an absolute superstar on impact metrics. The best player of the best team in his peak
Manu was a bigtime player who regularly made other players with bigger stats look like losers against him. What a champ.
Your analysis about how his hip and knee mobility allowed him to glide past defenders was super interesting, and probably one of the big reasons he was so unique to watch. Those are the details that keep me coming back. Most excellent analysis as always!
I was so fascinated as well..
It was like Manu was drifting sharply on every turn as if he was a race car, just like his famous euro step, he would turn one way and go the other.
Have you ever seen an athlete do something so creative, so unexpected that you don't understand what you've just seen in real time, and you need a slow-mo replay to fully fathom what they just pulled off? Manu would do things like that constantly, along with a physical, nasty edge to his game. Endlessly entertaining and ruthlessly effective.
Absolutely deadly clutch too, you just knew he was going to rip your heart out in the 4th, it was just a matter of when
Idk about all that lol.
Facts. Part of it I imagine was because he was a lefty and I had a friend who was also a really good lefty hooper (who very coincidentally even *looked* a little like Manu) and had the same kind of alien, hard-to-guard angle of attacks and weird looking finishes and movements. But often you'd see Manu do something that just left you shaking your head and wondering how on earth he did it, like regularly splitting double teams and dropping shammgods in traffic. No amount of watching tapes and practicing that could get me even remotely comfortable doing it like he did, which led me to the conclusion that Manu was just "different."
Theres a chinese saying that goes, when ahead, look for duncan, when behind, look for parker, and when its desperate look for ginobili.
I watched my 2004 Pistons lock down Kobe in the Finals with 2 of the best on ball defenders in NBA history--Tayshaun Prince and Lindsey Hunter--then watched Manu put them on skates for 7 games the next year, taking over 4th quarters as they looked helpless. That includes when he put on a cape in the 4th quarter of a game 7 when it was tied, scoring 11 with 3 assists and 2 steals, while dunking on Rasheed Wallace, I believe, after he dunked on Ben Wallace near the end of 3rd quarter.
He scored or assisted on 16 of the last 20 Spurs points.
His shimmy shake when dribbling froze Prince, Hunter and Rip like Barry Sanders froze DBs.
He is better than Kobe for sure. Many NBA insiders think so just no one wants to say it publicly.
Ginobili was the best basketball player I ever watched, he was the physical embodiment of the word basketball.
Ginobili is at the level of Lebron Kobe Jordan in basketball history. He's an Olympic champion who beat the USA.
His quality was at least as effective as Jordan, maybe even better than Jordan.
@@yurttas5830 Delusional comment. Him and Jordan are not close to being on the same level. He wasn't at the level of any of the guys you brought up. He was a Hof and a star in his prime, the others were superstars and the best players in the entire league for a period of time.
In those finals,he was "the true MVP"
@@davidschmidt1793 put jordan in that argentinian team to win gold, against the Usa and see if he is better than ginobili.
I KNEW IT, people called me crazy but I knew Manu was a superstar he just sacrificed
That last Manu vs Duncan on/off stat was wild. Great video as always, Ben.
I am so happy Manu got his flowers and into the HOF. He definitely deserved it. He sacrificed his stats (and money) for the team and the team won big because of it. Ultimate competitor / winner.
I think that is a clear trade off for players who have team positive skillsets but can either take the money and play a bigger role. Or take less money to play with an established group of stars/great HC with the promise of competing at the highest level via the playoffs and the Finals. Many people remember Iguodala as part of the Warriors super versatile wing but not really remember his time as one of the foundational players for a young Sixers group. Which is forgettable because he was never amazing as the primary option type of player.
Superstar hiding in plain sight. Couldn’t have said it better! This was no 6 man, this was a mvp tailoring his game to fit his team not himself. He was the best player of the dynasty and I agree he was the most impactful player on the spurs even though I love Duncan.
He wasn’t a superstar. He was a star. He’d have never been close to a top 7 player in the league
@@hardwoodthought1213 he was, his package was just displayed in a manner where you need to look closely and you can see
@@isaactesfaye9760 Who is your lowest ratted/ranked superstar currently playing?
@@hardwoodthought1213 Demar Derozan. His off ball game is non-existent and always brought poor spacing without the ball causing him to only add value on ball.. You have to build your team around Demar, who also could never defend, to have off ball guys, and he just was never good enough to build around. The raptors had such a well rounded team which is why they were good, Kyle Lowry was always the more impactful player(off ball game,iq,spacing,defense) yet the love always went to Demar because he scored points
@@isaactesfaye9760 I guess that’s just where we differ. My lowest ranked superstar is Tatum who I have ranked 6th overall (LBJis almost impossible to rank because of his age/ability/popularity so leaving him out). Superstar to me are the top 5-9 players (depending on era) who basically guarantee you a deep playoff run every other year given a half decent team. I love Manu, he was the second biggest snub alongside Pau on the NBA 75 (after Dwight, who was criminally left off), but I just don’t see a world where as his teams de facto best player he’s taking teams far consistently. Could be wrong but I’d say there’s less chance of that than what we saw, which was an amazing plug and play piece who had an all time skillset who was allowed to flourish even in limited minutes playing behind the greatest teammate, leader and winner in Duncan who I have ranked 5th all time
Manu always makes me question the concept of starters in a substitution heavy sport like basketball. Sure there are clear advantages to seizing the momentum early with your 5 best players, but Manu seems to suggest there might be a more strategic option
Manu was specially lethal off the bench because of his BBall IQ, in comparison Jamal Crawford was lethal off the bench because of his athleticism and skill. As a high IQ player if you have 5 minutes to watch and analyze the opposing team you will find the patterns players are executing, which automatically boosts your offensive and defensive capabilities. Obviously all of that can't be done by every 6th man, but Manu could, and that is one of the things people don't realize.
It is a strategic option.
Manu playing off the bench meant he played with and against bench players. This allowed him and his teammates to be more effective since he could score well and make plays.
Front loaded teams could do this. But a lot of superstars have too much pride to accept coming off the bench.
Well Coach Pop had to talk him into the role. Because there wasn't enough touches to start the game with the offense centered more on Timmy and Tony learning to play point guard. Manu coming off the bench was a huge change up to opponents because the way he created shots and added to playmaking was super different from the starting lineup. Manu's best asset despite all this was also being able to finish games in the 4th quarter alongside the other starters because of his defense. Its definitely a different way of getting a unique talent to buy in with a low usage rate. Whereas players who think they can be the 'man' anywhere else in the league would want a high usage/touches for themselves that may not equate to efficient team offense.
@@t4d0Wvery well said..
Against Manu, you have to become the ultimate marathon man, you are not allowed any room to breathe just to try and stop him. He can and will gas you out before you can even sub out, which means that he'll have his way with the opposing team and end them with a thousand cuts.
Ginobli was one of those players who could just turn it on and become unstoppable. He was an incredible competitor
As an Argentinian, ive seen Manu play his whole carreer. I always thought that his IQ, playmaking skills and defending intensity were always overlooked because he wasnt the typical SG that takes all the offensive load on his back. Even i feel when he had the oportunity, he was super clutch as well. Still think he was robbed of the 05 Finals MVP.
Anyway, thanks and i think im not the only one who really appreciates this kind of videos talking about players that flew under the radar but were vital to each team.
He was the ultimate Players' Player. He forge a whole generation, quietly from the shadows, puting effort on the curt, no just numbers.
Best part about it is you can still see him play as the alpha in the Olympics at his oldest and repping Argentina along with the other veterans. Did pretty well and still helped Argentina to 8th place.
i always believed that Manu was the fourth best SG in NBA history. sure, players like Harden, AI, and T-Mac had much greater numbers because they had the primary scorer role with the green light to do whatever they wanted, but if you held a draft of just SGs to start a franchise, after MJ, Kobe, and Wade, i would honestly want Ginobili above the rest. He can drive, shoot, dribble, pass, make high IQ and crazy cuts to the basketball, play great on ball and off ball defense, hustle for every loose balls, he was as tough as anyone in nba history, he was humble, low-maintenance, team first kind of guy... what more do you really want?
I agree
Drexler is above Manu.
Manu at his peak wasn't better than Harden.
@@connormacleod1490 lol. Funny
@@blacknetsmed hahaha... Lol
My absolutely favorite basketball player ever!
When Ginobili played for Virtus, I watched the best team win everything in Italy and Europe 🤍🖤
I'm SOOOOO EXCITED for manu's video. Manu is legit the reason i started watching basketball. Even as a novice, I realized how special and unique manu was. He was everything his frame didn't say. One of the greatest passers ever and above all, unselfish to the core.
It's great to see Ginobili get this kind of recognition. He seemed so central to the Spurs' success.
Incredible analysis of one of the very best players of the 2000s. Ben Taylor, you are the GOAT. That fake out with the "Duncan off, Manu on" and "Duncan on, Manu off" plus minus near the end is legendary 😅.
That kind of fake would make Manu proud. Got us all looking wherever he wanted.
Gino was an agent of chaos that Pop deployed like a masterful General. He could rest Tony or Timmy and send Gino in to exhaust the opposition. I watched him weave through defenders and take it to the hoop...particularly I remember that Pistons series...he was unstoppable. With all due respect to Duncan and Parker...Gino was the most fun player to watch.
Manu's career can't be measured just by numbers alone. His energy, his passion to win and his mentality as a player and as a teammate far exceeds whatever kind of analytical numbers you can come up with. The dude just wants to play ball with his team and win and that what makes him such a legend.
To this date, I hold that Manu has the most impressive basketball championship run ever. Not the NBA championship, but the Olympic gold medal. He led Argentina over an absolutely stacked US team, with Manu's second best player being who? Scola? As it was mentioned here, I'm not sure Manu could have sustained a high usage over a long season given his play style. But I have never seen anyone turn it up on offense and defense higher than Manu for a playoff push. Maybe some can turn it up just as high, but no one could go higher in my opinion.
Delfino was deadly from 3, Scola and Oberto were both NBA players at the time if i recall correctly, so we were strong in the paint, and Prigioni as a PG was solid on offense and could get his fair share of steals on defense. On top of all that, that Argentinian team had been playing together for a long time, and we Argentinians take international competitions very seriously. And the US team while stacked is probably the weakest US National Team sent to the olympics since 1988, they had no chemistry and half the players had very little professional experience, they still were the most individually talented team at the olympics, but like Pepe Sanchez said when interviewed, Basketball is 5 on 5, you have to play as a team to win.
Lol
Everyone was blowing the usa out. Larry brown cost them gold
@@gastonzamora4985 Delfino was like 19 in Athens and didn't play much. Scola was drafted by the Spurs at the time but was playing for TAU in Spain, Oberto was also in Spain and joined the Spurs the year after. Nocioni was the only other NBA player at the time, being recently signed for the Bulls. Prigioni was not on the team (Pepe Sánchez and Montecchia were the point guards).
Either way, it was a very talented team. 8 out of the 12 members of that Olympic Gold team ended up playing in the NBA: in 2004 Sánchez and Wolkowyski had already played, Manu and Nocioni were NBA players, and Scola, Delfino, Oberto, Herrmann would play later in their careers. While Manu was definitely the best player of the team, it wasn't like he was carrying a bunch of scrubs into a medal.
@@sebs24 I was pretty young when we won in Athens, so i did not remember all those specifics, thanks for clarifying all that, but as you said, Manu wasn't carrying a bunch of scrubs, and also most of them had been playing together for the national team for years at that point.
This was a banger, Manu stats suffered from his willingness to succeed and be part of something bigger then himself... However, for that sacrifice he is a multiple time NBA champion.
The most beloved Spur of all time. San Antonio loves Manu more than any other Spur
He had less minutes, that is true. But he had less minutes because he played them more intensively, more focused than most players - both on defense and offense. He played like it was the last ball of the game, that's why he was so good in the clutch, because he was literally always playing as if in clutchtime, that's why he took so many risks as well. That's what made him different. That's also what he means when he says he only had one gear. It's the Argentinian style. I've known many people in Argentina who play like that, amateur players. It's not relaxed. It's intense. We take our basketball seriously.
My favorite NBA player of all time. The reason I'm a Spurs fan for life. Thanks for the video.
An ACTUALLY underrated player getting his due. You love to see it.
There are not 4 more titles without Manu. He had flare and unpredictable tendencies that made him unique. He was a superstar to Spurs fans and players knew that Manu was the shit. I heard his name in Drake's Jumpman and others. Thanks for doing the king of the euro step right my man! Respect to GINOBILLI (Barkley Voice)
He was the x-factor for the Spurs. Every time he was on the floor he was a ball of energy. Great video on my favorite Spur growing up👍
He was an X Factor, but not the MVP. The MVP is the guy who turned the Spurs from a bridesmaid to the most winningest franchise in the NBA.
We all love Manu in San Antonio, but make no mistake, NONE of it happens without Duncan. It's why Manu is a HOFer and Duncan is an all timer, arguably top 5 ever.
@@dvs620I’m not gonna argue. I’m a big Timmy fan too! When I worked at Panera Bread I once made a sandwich for him, that was the highlight of my life thus far.
Manu sells more shirts that timy 😂
Manu is unique
Manu destroy tim in jjoo 2004
Damn what a great video. Manu is so far my favorite player and he is the reason I play and watch basketball. My heart almost broke when he retired, there will never be someone like him again
i couldnt stop crying during what we all knew was his last game 😫
Probably my Top 5 favorite player ever. The embodiment of Organized Chaos as a basketball player. Smart, tough, clutch, and selfless
Lol I already knew the Gino episode was on the way. I remember looking at a person who posted aN RAPM calculation spreadsheet with doubly weighted power for playoff stats and Ginobili put up some nonsensjcal numbers on offense and surprisingly even on defense. He ended up being one of the most impactful players in the league despite being a bench player
Manu is a really underrated player. He could've been a superstar playing in the teams but that's winning Basketball works. Also, he defeated a highly-favored USA team in the Olympics.
One of my favorite players of all time. Just a special ball player. Tangibles and intangibles.
Manu and parker had to be the most exciting duo in the nba. I don't understand why people thought the spurs were boring with those two guys in one roster. Add boris diaw to that team and you have an extremely fun team to watch. I guess casuals don't see it
Once a narrative is drilled in the mind of the masses, thats what they go with
Sucks to say, but herd mentality is what it is.
Im from Argentina. Manu fan. This is the first time i see these kind of metrics about Manu. Excellent episode!!! Keep up the good work. Cheers from Buenos Aires. Argentina.
Wish there was a section to cover Manu's "extra pass", imo he's the best of the best delivering the ball to open space. Nonetheless thank you so much for covering Manu in the series. Love him to death
I was disappointed there wasn't one too! Maybe because it focused on his peak where there was a bit less spacing on the team so his extra passes weren't as gorgeous yet?
beyond his undeniable dynamism and selfelessness, he also just played beautiful basketball. Those passes, those unorthodox moves, that gliding around the hoop; it's just beautiful to see.
One of my favorite players in history (next to Bird, Hakeem, Roy and Billups). Even though his creativity must have caused Pop's blood pressure to rise up drastically, it was something that braught freshness into the game. Manu fully enjoyed the game, that's why watching him was so much fun and excitement
Como extrañamos verte jugar Manu! fue un privilegio para los Argentinos que amamos el basquet, Muchas Gracias por este video !
Better version of harden. First to make the euro step relevant, played both sides of the ball and sacrificed the most. Manu beat team USA pretty much by himself, carried when the spurs needed it the most based on the eye test and numbers while being limited by pop and his military/ strict mindset… man i miss him 😢
He was absolutely a superstar level player, and I believe he was often the third best SG in the league behind Kobe and either TMac or Wade.
Something that's so hard to translate with Manu is the feeling both sets of fans had when he was on the floor. He was so unrelentingly competitive that, despite being a competent & cerebral player, he tried to put a dagger in his opponents on EVERY PLAY. And everyone watching at that time had at least one moment in their fandom when Manu Ginobili ripped their heart out and threw it 30 rows up into the stands. There are even people in the comments expressing that dread all these years later, and I can remember there were at least 3 fanbases (Mavs, Suns, & Nuggets) that had seasons in which they booed Manu every time he stepped on the court purely for the ways he'd beaten them in the past. I've never enjoyed watching a player more than I enjoyed him. Thanks for keeping the legend alive!
Manuuuu!!! I’m so glad you made this video… he is my favourite player of all time… since I live in India, I always had to wake up at 6 in the morning to watch all the games and I also got the league pass coz that’s the only way I could watch every game of my spurs… everytime I watched them I always wanted Manu to have the ball in his hands coz I always felt it was the most efficient play for the spurs… I’m just so glad that you did all this research to provide the numbers… he was so unbelievably good but I think you only realised it if you watched a large amount of spurs games, coz his stats don’t stand out at all….the only reason he isn’t considered a true superstar is coz he dint really have a traditionally great one on one offensive game and midrange game which you mentioned as well… but when I watched the spurs I almost always knew he was as important as Duncan during the 2005-2011 period and perhaps even more important in stretches
Listening to a high quality analysis from Ben while also hearing spliced clips of Barkley's "GINOBLI!" cry is what we call basketball heaven.
I just want to give a genuine thank you for your thoughtful analysis and dedication to the game. Manu might be the most deserving player to have analyze. His brilliance inspired generations of fans, and is one of the greatest people the league has ever known. Gracias Manu.
Thank for so much for this series. I absolutely love it.
Manu was such a scary player on the Spurs in his days (coming from a Mavs fan). He had the skill of Kobe, the will of Jordan and a battery from energizer. I respect him so much for his full throttle, no nonsense game and am very pleased to have somebody actually explain why he was so scary, unguardable at times, to opponents.
Best hips of the NBA ever. Manu is a legend.
Wow 🌈
He's the Shakira of basketball.
Love it, been waiting too long for someone putting some respect on the mans name. Timmy was a great two-way player and got lots of praise from his peers, but Manu was built different. People are always arguing about the top tier players for each position, goat pyramid etc, to me Ginobili is a role model for greatness - having ego is great, managing one is a different story. Legend!
Duncan was quite clearly the best and most important player for SA. This revisionist history needs to end. Duncan won multiple titles either without Manu or with Manu playing average as hell. Manu never won unless Duncan was All-NBA on both sides of the ball
@@hardwoodthought1213 I don`t think anyone in their right mind thinks Manu would have won without Duncan. Saying it would be fine the other way round is funny though, show me other 6th man from that era with similar efficiency and impact on team playoff performance. NBA in 2000s became stacked with talent - even if you consider Spurs lineups to have only two all-stars or Heat having one leader in D-Wade (again, saying Shaq was a non-factor would be dumb as well) it was clear you are not winning because of one player only. There are numbers supporting Manus impact in this video. If you`re trying to tell us a story about Duncan winning without Manu in 2005/2007 then you`re out of your mind.
Man I’m so happy, my favourite player of all time. What a savant
Ginobli is one of the few players who actually plays to win the game. He doesn't care about the status of being a starter.
watching manu and the spurs with my dad is a core memory of mine, i loved it! so lucky we got to go to a few games
Maaaan i miss that era of basketball. 1996 to 2013 was such a beautiful time for the NBA, and peaking in the mid 2000s. Manu was before his time. He would thrive in todays NBA.
Great video. Ginobili is the most underrated player by far in NBA history, probably in the entire professional sports history. He is the best player in the world in his prime. He is the winner at every stage of basketball. He led Argentina beat so called dream team twice and beat Duncan led USA in 2004 Olympic in route to win gold. He is one of top 10 all time players and the 2nd best shooting guide right next to MJ. He is vastly underrated because he is a foreigner.
This is the 2nd video I've seen before that kind of suggests in a way that Pop underutilized Manu. The other one used news stories, but Ben has some really good stats to back it up
Manu is a legend as a player and as man. San Antonio loves him.
Optionally is one of the most fun to watch player ever.
Wonderful analysis
Amazing analysis as always, I'm sure there's still plenty of players to go through, but I'm already looking forward to the 3rd series: the Defensive Monsters. The analysis of players like Ben Wallace, Rodman, 2014 Kawhi, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Bruce Bowen and the list goes on
Great video!!! Manu never gets the respect he deserves. The Spurs dynasty would’ve never be realized without him! Think about all the great teams with multiple hall of famers- there’s so many, yet only a handful of dynasties. The contribution of the 2nd and 3rd guys ALWAYS gets overshadowed by the #1 (Duncan in this case), but on any other team they would be #1. It’s possible Manu could’ve had “Harden in Houston” type seasons if he played today. If you need a player testimonial, just listen to Kobe talk about him! He’s a legend and had such a unique package at the time! Gawdamn we need more players like him.
I'm not sure he fits in this series, but I'd love to see a breakdown on Chauncey Billups
Like Manu ...
- he had a relatively short peak
- he was super efficient and had a high basketball IQ
- his actual impact was way higher than his traditional stats would indicate
- he was much closer to a superstar level player than an all-star
One thing I will say is that he had a good build for a PG in the 2000s. There weren't many playmakers in that 2000s era were at around 6'3" and played at 200-210 lbs who could use that size to finish strong at the hoop and get easy FTs.
Lucky to have witnessed this wizard live many times during my time living in SA 2002-2010.
A superstar hiding in plain sight. Very well said.
I''ve been a Spurs fan for 2 decades. So I'm biased with this opinion. But I think the smarter NBA fans don't need to be told that Manu was a superstar. But the casual fans need to be told.
@@johngo3715Who is your lowest ranked superstar currently?
I think he's one of the few 6th men type players whose every made an All-NBA team (3rd all team twice). I'm usually crass towards NBA awards process but in context for Manu, I think its notable considering you have players who are starting and putting up big individual stats who are trying to make a case to be in these team selections. Plus he does most of his damage where it matters which is the highly competitive environment of the playoffs.
The most Underrated Superstar in NBA history. He's right up there with Kobe and Wade!
He should've won that Finals MVP in 2005
Slow down a little brotha. Yeah, he's great, but slow down 😅
Kobe not sure but Wade for sure. If you know you know.
@@Andrewmehr_no slowing down. I do think he is better than wade. The casual nba fan will never see it but ginobli was by far a better offensive player and brought value on defense. If you argue on ppg then I guess it’s wade
@isaactesfaye9760 This is a down right koo-koo take brother.
@isaactesfaye9760 Pretty sure you're getting lost in the way he plays. Doesn't make him better because he looks more unique out there. If he truly was better than D-wade they without a doubt would have run more offense through him during his playing days. I understand they had Duncan and they played In a specific system. But you don't just bench someone better than D-Wade and don't give him constant touches.
i really wish that he won that 2005 finals mvp. he deserves that one
the euro stepper that don't bring any drama or distraction to his team just positive vibe, that's Manu Ginobili!!
GREAT VIDEO! Manu was a player that only wanted to win, he didn't care about stats but winning championships and he knew what he needed to do and the outcome of that are 4 championships. MANU 2005 FMVP!
Your the goat for a Manu video. He had the craft, iq, shooting, passing and could’ve been a james harden on the rockets but instead chose to do anything his team needed no matter what role. He competed on defense too and is one of the better guard defenders we’ve seen imo, Making him a 2-way and better than harden. Just embodies a winner and honestly was the spurs best player and a lot of people don’t understand his value cuz he didn’t average 30. I think he has an argument next to Kobe and is better than wade. His impact was that good people will just not see
The man never shot more that 13 shots a game. His role was usually to take tough shots when the offense couldn't create easy ones, so his FG% would prolly go up as well.
@@linkonedgell894 he was ahead of his time, either getting to the cup with his footwork and flare or shooting from outside…no inefficient long 2s. Running offense through him was always the best option there’s a reason they were so good when he was on the court and bad when he was off
@@isaactesfaye9760
there no argument for him being better than Wade lol wade was basically manu on steroids
@@jamalwalker Manu on steroids? Wade had none of the offensive tangibles Manu had. The off ball game, spacing, 3-level threat. Why did wade fit poorly with Lebron? Because he is only a floor raiser, and only brings value with the ball, Manu brings value in any situation as a floor raiser or ceiling pusher(with or without the ball).There is a lot you are not seeing
@@isaactesfaye9760
Yeah you're wrong from the Jump wades ability to play off ball as the reason the heat won the chip 06 his ability as a cutter and scene mover was second to none.
I'm so glad you gave a shout out to Manu's defense. You know someone is special when they are almost as fun to watch on defense as they are to watch on offense.
Kids if you watching this, you watching a legend that influenced & changed the game in the same vein as Shaq, Curry, AI, MJ, Dirk, KD, & LBJ.
Manu was lightning in a bottle with a flash of genius every game. He was a bonafide superstar with his signature playstyle.
His career stats didnt do him justice but damn his game was kino & respected.
Everybody knew if you playing the Spurs, it wasn't just the French guy & the Big Fundamental.
That Argentinian got game bro - guy was the highlights factory of the Spurs.
The spurs were literally one of my favorite teams to watch growing up in the 2000’s despite being a laker fan because manu and tony were just so much fun to watch
When NBA top 75 all time great players list was announced, I was a little disappointed that Westbrook, Harden and Lillard were on the list. While proven winners like Ginobili, Parker and maybe Billups weren't.
That 0.5 concept... other player recently that i had fun watching because of this was rookie Tatum, every pass received he would immediately shoot, feint or drive always choosing the best option
Derrick white embodies this, it’s another reason his advanced stats make him look like a top 10 player(and his defense). Crucial skill that is rare
Hes the definition of a winner. Whatever the team needed he will provide it
The bait and switch around 25:11 is unbelievable. I've been an enormous Ginobili fan since I watched the NBA as a kid. This video makes me realize how much better he is than I thought. I'm curious if his motor being so high is what limited his minutes (or conversely his slightly more limited minutes allowed him to just floor it at all times).
I love Manu because he was a Swiss Army knife and fits well next to almost any style of player? Ball dominant big on your team (Duncan)? He can be a slasher and a cutter, taking advantage of his gravity. Have a Pick and Roll paint attacking PG that plays downhill? He can be a spot up shooter for the kickout? Need a Bench player to spark instant offense? He's your pick and roll ball handler. All while having a high revving motor on defense.
I don't know about him being the MVP of the Spurs dynasty but what I do know is that there are a whole lot of two guards who are historically ranked higher than him that he's actually better than.
@lovell7106 Start with the most overrated player in NBA history, Tracy McGrady and then in no particular order; Gervin, Reggie Miller and Vince Carter.
For sure man
I’m still waiting on the Harden video
Underrated beast, hall of fame, best latin ever, humble pleayer that never looked for the spotlight... Respect
Manu was an all star who still chose to come off the bench and take a reduced role. He could have been the best player on almost other team, but he chose to stay in San Antonio, and that’s why we love him so much here ❤
Manu was basically the complete opposite of Kobe.
- extremely underrated offensively and defensively
- extremely efficient
- never forced bad shots
- phenomenal 3pt shooter
- willing to take a 6th man role for his team to succeed
Manu took some bad shots, ha. That’s what made him Manu. A lot of great with a few WTF sprinkled in there
Lol. Ginobili was great & at his apex in 2005 was a fringe MVP level.
But you're description gives the impression that he was better than KB. You're description might have made sense if you said Iverson.
KB is arguably one of the Top 8-10 Offensive players ever. KB from 2001-2011 was no.1 in the NBA Total ORAPM. Top 8 All-Time Playoffs ORAPM.
KB was a good 3pt shooter, from 2002-2009 Regular Season shot 35% from 3 on 5 attempts. Above average on pretty high volume.
In the Playoffs Prime from 2002-2010(sans 2004 Playoffs) shot 36.6% from 3 on nearly 5 attempts a game.
KB was competitively efficient. KB has a HIGHER Career Defense Adjusted True Shooting in the Playoffs than both Larry Bird & Tim Duncan.
In Regular Season has a HIGHER Career Relative True Shooting than both Dwyane Wade & Hakeem Olajuwon.
KB was very scalable playing alongside other high end talent.
@@blacknetsmed top 8-10? I'll buy that. the problem is morons actually think he a top 1-3 player all time, hence the overratedness.
also shooting 35% from 3 is basically league average, and that was his peak. it's very convenient you left off his last 5 seasons when he was puking up almost 6 3pa per game on 30% shooting. that's westbrookian levels of shooting futility. Kobe was in no shape or form a good 3pt shooter.
@@soogasooga KB's prime was 2001-2010. When he upped his volume from 2002-2009 he shot 35% from 3, the league average amongst players that attempted at least 1 3point attempt during that stretch was 33% he was above on high volume.
In his Playoff Prime 36.6% on 5 3p attempts. Even this very YT channel you're on states that KB was a good 3pt shooter.
All the more comprehensive shooting data/shot quality data clearly paints KB as good & competent 3p shooter.
After 2010 he lost range on his shot, but it doesn't change the fact that he was good 3p shooter throughout the heart of his prime.
@@blacknetsmed The league average on 3s from 2002-2009 was 35.7%.
You can play around with numbers all you want, Kobe was an average 3pt. shooter at best.
Manu sees the game the same way guys like bird, walton, jokic, boris, sabonis , curry, klay, miller, allen and etc., see the game. In it's purest form. Quick decisions, great off ball movement, and egoless.
Thinking Basketball is the best thing on the internet, ever. This analysis of Manu, you can see is full of heart and soul, just like he always played. That's why Manu is Manu, and no one is quite like him. Thank you very much!
Absolutely great video breakdown of my favorite player of all time. He was definitely the best player on the court countless times during the Spurs dynasty.
Qué lujo haber podido ser contemporáneo de esta bestia. Gracias Manu.
Manu is one of my favorite "Box score stats don't tell the whole story" players.
It has literally never happened to me, being almost 40, to cry while watching a basketball video (or any yt video for that matter).
I'm guessing he reminded me of my playing days because he represented everything I love about basketball: valuing your teammates, unpredictability, flashiness and above all else - leaving your heart on the floor, no matter the part of the floor nor the significance of the game.
And I know him pre-NBA, being from Serbia and watching him being an absolute unit in Argentina in the WC and the Olympics.
He damn well deserved this video. Thank you both.
8:45 - Mark Cuban eating lemons 😂😂😂