If we stop paying for crap stories, starvation often cures stupid. The Critical Drinker just did a video on the death of Star Trek for that very reason.
@@JaenEngineering Oh I have evidence. His review of The Flash movie, for one. He's good when talking about THE CONTEXT AROUND the film...but when he got to "the movie should've had blah blah blah" I IMMEDIATELY went, "Dude, that's LITERALLY THE CLIMAX OF THE MOVIE!!!" Course...since that's not in the trailers, he didn't know. Now, I KNOW you're gonna move the goalposts and go "Yeah but that's ONE movie"--to which I say, all you need is one compromise of your integrity to make yourself suspect. Besides...Ya Boi Zack has gone into detail on all the other times he's done that.
I saw this with my adult children. As soon as the animals were introduced as a “cause”, I realized this was a woke movie disguised as the “beginning “ of the Wicked Witch and a fun musical. I enjoyed the music and the Elfaba actress’s voice was fantastic. BUT, cringed as the purpose of the story became clear.
I always hated "Let It Go," especially in context of the story. In my Changer stories, one of them is the leader of a Changer "herd" who ran away from responsibility. When she finally came back, so many had died because she didn't do her job; she dedicated the last 225 million years to serving that herd, as their leader, because it was her punishment for her failures (the counsel thought that death was too merciful & exile was just "more of the same"). It's a debt she can never repay…and this was all _before_ she learned that she'd even be a Changer, extending her sentence.
I went to this movie with my nieces expecting clever writing, that would color the motives of a known villain and her descent into villainy in such a way as to render her relatable. Instead, I find an old and beloved story hijacked with 2 dimensional heroes and villains, just all in the wrong places... And an absolute genius performance by Ariane Grande who I've only ever known by name, that almost made it worth watching.
Hey, Klavan production team, the sibilance on this recording is incedably distracting. Please rely on the Sure SM7 more/move it closer. There's a reason clip-on mics are not really used on podcasts.
In my lifetime, 77 years, what I've seen help to destroy the arts is athletics, which is all consuming, degradation of the arts as a waste of time as there is no future in it. Within the public school arts community, particularly in the state that I live in it became about continuous contests that were as much about parent involvement as students, enabling, not improving. It has become about entertainment, putting on a show. In the church, the mediocrity of music has destroyed the church.
And sports are ruined. It’s sports entertainment like the WWE, leaning closer to manufacturers outcomes, betting, paying college kids that trickles down to high school kids thinking they’re stars, team/regional loyalty is gone. The Woke Virus is everywhere and meant to upturn the very nature of truth/reality. Everything’s make believe, a story, a narrative
What you're saying is true. I remember watching the play and not liking the premise but loving the music. The thesis is villains are made and not born. It's culturally grooming impressionable and idealistic people to believe and hope that redemption is societal which explains a lot of the ills in our culture.
I love Andrew, but I couldn’t disagree more with his assessment. I thought the story of Wicked was more about the power of choices, both good and bad, that we make in response to the problems of life. And furthermore how those choices impact the community (also because I know the musical so I know what’s coming). And what happens when you step outside the community. I also took Glinda’s story arc not as one where she has to rebel to come into power. Rather for a girl who has never suffered to recognize suffering in others and how she can step outside of herself to show true kindness from the heart and how that act of kindness brings someone on the fringes into the community. The power of choices. I took away a lot of lessons that I talked through with my daughter. Honestly I thought Amala Ekpunobi gave the best review of the story of Wicked that I’ve seen online. I think, at times, it’s important to look past “good” and “evil” as blanket statements because in real life our relationships with other people are very rarely so cut and dried.
Wicked is the quintessential postmodern story. Man bad, misunderstood woman good. It makes us empathize with villains and villainize tradition and societal substructures. If you got value out of the story, fine. But that will be the building blocks of your daughters beliefs about the world. Story matters. Good story matters.
@ The men weren’t all bad in the story. And that becomes more evident in part 2. And I think it’s important to teach children to see past “bad person” labels, but also how to respond to evil in power. This was a huge part of the story.
I agree about the subversive messaging of women being proudly rebellious and defiant. However. The thing i think this is missing is that Elphaba isn't necessarily evil, just green, and I think Wicked is supposed to be an exploration of what makes someone become wicked (such as being rejected by "good") and whether the appearance of good always equates to good. Which can be interesting. And in that case it becomes a story about a girl becoming wicked by rebelling against the system. And good becoming wicked by failing to preserve good and stand up against corruption. But I do agree it's too entwined with feminism.
I haven't seen this movie or play but from the clips I saw I knew I wouldn't like it but couldn't articulate it. Thank you Andrew for putting into words what I was thinking but couldn't find the right words!
I saw Wicked last week... was dragged to see it. The movie had its moments, with some of the songs and acting... but it was shallow storytelling... and yes, it reflects the shallowness of our current culture. It's a social justice woke anthem... wicked is good and good is wicked. The movie took way too long to hammer that point home... and it's not not done. There's a part Two, just to remind us of how shallow and truly wicked we are, in our prosperity, openness and tolerance. I wonder how this movie would play with Hamas?
@@dukeofdenver Woke has it's origins. It didn't hit full bloom until the last decade or so. I don't know how closely the book was adapted to the musical... and then to the movie. The movie's basic theme... what was once viewed as evil, the Wicked Witch of the West, is turned upside down. She's now a misunderstood rebel, fighting against the injustice of the Oz hierarchy, the real evil. Maybe the film is more of a retro fit to today's woke sensibilities. No matter bro, the message is clear.
@@Peter7966 Doesn't the Right also reject institutions, like the Fauci stuff, like mainstream media narratives, like Big Tech censorship? The idea that rejecting institutions or people shunned by institutions are sometimes victims of false narratives isn't inherently Leftist. By any standard.
Rehabilitating the wicked witch is like rehabilitating OJ Simpson. Of course Hollywood probably already has the script written and waiting for the time to put it on the screen.
I say it before and I say it again, your takes surprise me, especially with the comment on fatherhood and that the Wizard overstepped his bounds. I never caught onto that.
When you mentioned _Perelandra,_ you left out the part where the Tolkien-character was called upon by God to prevent the corruption of that world's Eve, by facing the man who was trying to corrupt her, and beating him to d**th with his bare hands.
I like the definition of a conservative - "Someone who is trying to conserve the founding ideas of this country". Perhaps the contrasting definition of a liberal (a good word gone bad) should then be someone who is trying to "liberate" us away from those ideas, or ideals.
"Everything they're is telling you to rebel against the order" They don't realize they are the order now. Which means _everything_ -- traditional values and modern "rebellion" alike -- is telling young men now, to rebel against them. =D
Warning: 2nd hand info but I heard that THE BOOK WICKED was VERY different from movie. and not child appropriate. IDK but passing on...I have no reason to.doubt the post I read.
The main purpose of art is not to "delight", thats the purpose of entertainment and they are *different*. The purpose of art is to tell a story, make you think, maybe even make you uncomfortable with something about society or yourself. The messages in the Wicked movie are closer to godly and goodness than anything I saw in this video. The message of the movie is about reconsidering what you're *told* about who someone is, accepting differences instead of villainizing people because they aren't what we're used to seeing, and not to let powerful people silence and scapegoat the oppressed. If you dismiss messages like that I genuinely worry about the humans you are. The storytelling in this absolutely adored musical and movie spoke intensely to so many people its actually pretty absurd to suggest it was bad storytelling... Bad storytelling would not move this many people this deeply. Just because it doesn't speak to everyone doesn't mean its badly told.
It's too bad most young girls aren't going to hear your great advice draw and it's really too bad that the girl they would listen too doesnt work for DW anymore. Talk to Jeremy and Get her back drew, fix what is broken at DW.
More than "a moral lecture," Drew: Conservatives want everything to be "real world." There's such reluctance to embrace the power of IMAGINATION that there's an inherent dismissal of genres that RELY on that: Fantasy...Superhero stories...sci-fi that's in the far future OR "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away"... These genres require the work of "world-building" BEYOND just the characters, because being set "in the real world" means you don't have to set up the rules of your story's universe--they de facto already exist. But if you have to craft a new universe for your story, and new rules with it...THAT requires imagination. Something beyond "the real world."
Drew, in Frozen Elsa isn’t rebelling against society’s virtues, she’s rebelling against her parents’ instruction to suppress and hide her powers. That’s the “good girl” behavior she’s referring to. “Conceal don’t feel.” Conceal your powers by suppressing your emotions. That’s what her parents taught due to the fear and danger of her powers.
The powers are ambiguous and could be, hypothetically, the power of seduction or sexuality. I’m not saying that’s what the writers had in mind but just en example of how some things indeed should be suppressed and perhaps your parents know what they are talking about after all.
@@soldieroftruth77 I’m sorry but did you even see the movie? It’s her ice powers and only her ice powers. Any power of sexuality perceived is driven purely by your own attraction. Name ONE scene where her sex powers are implied.
@@artistjuliadocherty Yes. Eve listened to a talking snake instead of God. And Adam listened to his wife instead of God. Men and women need to listen to God. If Adam would have brought Eve to God after she had sinned and begged God to forgive her, they would have remained in paradise.
The movie isn't saying that rebellion is good for it's own sake😂 It's pretty clear that it's because of the pogrom against the animals. You literally acknowledge that and that ignore it later to say its about rebellion for rebellion sake. Also, the reversal of protagonist/antagonist is a pretty common trope in retellings. Shrek, Maleficent etc. There's no crisis here. Relax
@philipb7400 Man vs. Society is a very common and long mythic tradition, as far as Moses. Or Lone Ranger vs. Robber Baron or Robin Hood v Sheriff of Nottingham. It is not inherently Leftist by any means. And it makes for pretty great stories.
You're kind of missing the point of his critique. He wasn't just saying it’s 'rebellion for rebellion’s sake'. he was questioning the morality of glorifying rebellion as a whole. Bringing up the "pogrom" against animals or comparing it to other tropes like 'Shrek' doesn’t really address his argument. Seems like a strawman.
@RachelRichards Wasn't America founded by a rebellion? Why would that be bad in and of itself to Klavan. Listen to him again. He distinguishes between rebellion against Adam and God versus other kinds of rebellion.
I knew all I needed to know about Wicked when I remembered Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. I won’t be going to see it.
If we stop paying for crap stories, starvation often cures stupid. The Critical Drinker just did a video on the death of Star Trek for that very reason.
Now if only Drinker actually WATCHED the movies he reviews, he'd have the credibility to lecture on what must be done. Alas, his integrity is suspect.
@@Hard_Boiled_Entertainmentany evidence to prove he doesn't?
@@JaenEngineering Well, Mr. Boiled has no genitals and purple hair with lipstick. HE(?) is proof he(?) is correct.
@@Hard_Boiled_Entertainment I find his reviews accurate, after watching what he has reviewed myself.
@@JaenEngineering Oh I have evidence. His review of The Flash movie, for one. He's good when talking about THE CONTEXT AROUND the film...but when he got to "the movie should've had blah blah blah" I IMMEDIATELY went, "Dude, that's LITERALLY THE CLIMAX OF THE MOVIE!!!" Course...since that's not in the trailers, he didn't know.
Now, I KNOW you're gonna move the goalposts and go "Yeah but that's ONE movie"--to which I say, all you need is one compromise of your integrity to make yourself suspect. Besides...Ya Boi Zack has gone into detail on all the other times he's done that.
Klavan is excellent in articulating exactly why I mysteriously have disdain for something.
Mysterious disdain, eh?🤔
Thank you, I consumed a huge bag of popcorn watching Wicked, but left feeling empty. Now I know why.
I saw this with my adult children. As soon as the animals were introduced as a “cause”, I realized this was a woke movie disguised as the “beginning “ of the Wicked Witch and a fun musical.
I enjoyed the music and the Elfaba actress’s voice was fantastic.
BUT, cringed as the purpose of the story became clear.
Have you seen the play? Is it the same?
Very profound take on the allegory of the Wizard as man trying to act as a g-d. Yasher koach.
Love this take Mr. Klavan. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I always hated "Let It Go," especially in context of the story.
In my Changer stories, one of them is the leader of a Changer "herd" who ran away from responsibility. When she finally came back, so many had died because she didn't do her job; she dedicated the last 225 million years to serving that herd, as their leader, because it was her punishment for her failures (the counsel thought that death was too merciful & exile was just "more of the same"). It's a debt she can never repay…and this was all _before_ she learned that she'd even be a Changer, extending her sentence.
What's a Changer? Sounds interesting
I went to this movie with my nieces expecting clever writing, that would color the motives of a known villain and her descent into villainy in such a way as to render her relatable. Instead, I find an old and beloved story hijacked with 2 dimensional heroes and villains, just all in the wrong places... And an absolute genius performance by Ariane Grande who I've only ever known by name, that almost made it worth watching.
Hey, Klavan production team, the sibilance on this recording is incedably distracting. Please rely on the Sure SM7 more/move it closer. There's a reason clip-on mics are not really used on podcasts.
In my lifetime, 77 years, what I've seen help to destroy the arts is athletics, which is all consuming, degradation of the arts as a waste of time as there is no future in it. Within the public school arts community, particularly in the state that I live in it became about continuous contests that were as much about parent involvement as students, enabling, not improving. It has become about entertainment, putting on a show. In the church, the mediocrity of music has destroyed the church.
Poor preaching and parents not bringing their kids has destroyed the church.
@@georgewagner7787 From my perspective, when the church reacted with cowardice instead of faith in the face of covid it lost all of its power.
And sports are ruined. It’s sports entertainment like the WWE, leaning closer to manufacturers outcomes, betting, paying college kids that trickles down to high school kids thinking they’re stars, team/regional loyalty is gone.
The Woke Virus is everywhere and meant to upturn the very nature of truth/reality. Everything’s make believe, a story, a narrative
What you're saying is true. I remember watching the play and not liking the premise but loving the music. The thesis is villains are made and not born. It's culturally grooming impressionable and idealistic people to believe and hope that redemption is societal which explains a lot of the ills in our culture.
I love Andrew, but I couldn’t disagree more with his assessment. I thought the story of Wicked was more about the power of choices, both good and bad, that we make in response to the problems of life. And furthermore how those choices impact the community (also because I know the musical so I know what’s coming). And what happens when you step outside the community. I also took Glinda’s story arc not as one where she has to rebel to come into power. Rather for a girl who has never suffered to recognize suffering in others and how she can step outside of herself to show true kindness from the heart and how that act of kindness brings someone on the fringes into the community. The power of choices. I took away a lot of lessons that I talked through with my daughter. Honestly I thought Amala Ekpunobi gave the best review of the story of Wicked that I’ve seen online. I think, at times, it’s important to look past “good” and “evil” as blanket statements because in real life our relationships with other people are very rarely so cut and dried.
Wicked is the quintessential postmodern story.
Man bad, misunderstood woman good.
It makes us empathize with villains and villainize tradition and societal substructures.
If you got value out of the story, fine. But that will be the building blocks of your daughters beliefs about the world.
Story matters. Good story matters.
@ The men weren’t all bad in the story. And that becomes more evident in part 2. And I think it’s important to teach children to see past “bad person” labels, but also how to respond to evil in power. This was a huge part of the story.
Interestingly enough, the broadway actress who played Ephelba on the stage, is also the woman who sang “Let It Go” in Frozen.
Did anyone else put it together that Elsa was the original Elphaba (Idina Menzel played both)
I agree about the subversive messaging of women being proudly rebellious and defiant. However. The thing i think this is missing is that Elphaba isn't necessarily evil, just green, and I think Wicked is supposed to be an exploration of what makes someone become wicked (such as being rejected by "good") and whether the appearance of good always equates to good. Which can be interesting. And in that case it becomes a story about a girl becoming wicked by rebelling against the system. And good becoming wicked by failing to preserve good and stand up against corruption.
But I do agree it's too entwined with feminism.
"Let It Go" is another story. We're not supposed to believe that Elsa is doing right at that point. She gets better later.
I haven't seen this movie or play but from the clips I saw I knew I wouldn't like it but couldn't articulate it. Thank you Andrew for putting into words what I was thinking but couldn't find the right words!
I saw Wicked last week... was dragged to see it. The movie had its moments, with some of the songs and acting... but it was shallow storytelling... and yes, it reflects the shallowness of our current culture. It's a social justice woke anthem... wicked is good and good is wicked. The movie took way too long to hammer that point home... and it's not not done. There's a part Two, just to remind us of how shallow and truly wicked we are, in our prosperity, openness and tolerance. I wonder how this movie would play with Hamas?
@@Peter7966 The musical based on the book from the 90s is "woke"? Okay bro.
@@dukeofdenver Woke has it's origins. It didn't hit full bloom until the last decade or so. I don't know how closely the book was adapted to the musical... and then to the movie. The movie's basic theme... what was once viewed as evil, the Wicked Witch of the West, is turned upside down. She's now a misunderstood rebel, fighting against the injustice of the Oz hierarchy, the real evil. Maybe the film is more of a retro fit to today's woke sensibilities. No matter bro, the message is clear.
@@Peter7966 Doesn't the Right also reject institutions, like the Fauci stuff, like mainstream media narratives, like Big Tech censorship? The idea that rejecting institutions or people shunned by institutions are sometimes victims of false narratives isn't inherently Leftist. By any standard.
Rehabilitating the wicked witch is like rehabilitating OJ Simpson. Of course Hollywood probably already has the script written and waiting for the time to put it on the screen.
I say it before and I say it again, your takes surprise me, especially with the comment on fatherhood and that the Wizard overstepped his bounds. I never caught onto that.
When you mentioned _Perelandra,_ you left out the part where the Tolkien-character was called upon by God to prevent the corruption of that world's Eve, by facing the man who was trying to corrupt her, and beating him to d**th with his bare hands.
I like the definition of a conservative - "Someone who is trying to conserve the founding ideas of this country". Perhaps the contrasting definition of a liberal (a good word gone bad) should then be someone who is trying to "liberate" us away from those ideas, or ideals.
It’s okay Andrew. You can just say the movie is terrible. It is. Speaking purely from a craft standpoint. It’s even worse because of the messaging.
"Everything they're is telling you to rebel against the order"
They don't realize they are the order now.
Which means _everything_ -- traditional values and modern "rebellion" alike -- is telling young men now, to rebel against them. =D
I was litteraly just today auguring with people online about how right wingers need to get into the arts more, thanks for this!
Excellent analysis! But what I really want to know is when is the Cameron Winter book coming out?!?!
Good analysis. I'm sorry my granddaughters like these films. Probably because of the catchy tunes.
A great job and profound true insights - culture and the art of storytelling - "Something more" vs. "Nothing but"
Warning: 2nd hand info but I heard that THE BOOK WICKED was VERY different from movie. and not child appropriate. IDK but passing on...I have no reason to.doubt the post I read.
It is certainly not a children's book.
Great explanation! Thank you.
The main purpose of art is not to "delight", thats the purpose of entertainment and they are *different*. The purpose of art is to tell a story, make you think, maybe even make you uncomfortable with something about society or yourself.
The messages in the Wicked movie are closer to godly and goodness than anything I saw in this video. The message of the movie is about reconsidering what you're *told* about who someone is, accepting differences instead of villainizing people because they aren't what we're used to seeing, and not to let powerful people silence and scapegoat the oppressed. If you dismiss messages like that I genuinely worry about the humans you are.
The storytelling in this absolutely adored musical and movie spoke intensely to so many people its actually pretty absurd to suggest it was bad storytelling... Bad storytelling would not move this many people this deeply. Just because it doesn't speak to everyone doesn't mean its badly told.
It's too bad most young girls aren't going to hear your great advice draw and it's really too bad that the girl they would listen too doesnt work for DW anymore. Talk to Jeremy and Get her back drew, fix what is broken at DW.
Isn’t the lady who sings as Elsa in Wicked the same lady who sings as Elfaba in the wicked stage play?
Yes, Idina Menzel did both characters.
More than "a moral lecture," Drew: Conservatives want everything to be "real world." There's such reluctance to embrace the power of IMAGINATION that there's an inherent dismissal of genres that RELY on that: Fantasy...Superhero stories...sci-fi that's in the far future OR "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away"... These genres require the work of "world-building" BEYOND just the characters, because being set "in the real world" means you don't have to set up the rules of your story's universe--they de facto already exist. But if you have to craft a new universe for your story, and new rules with it...THAT requires imagination. Something beyond "the real world."
Drew, in Frozen Elsa isn’t rebelling against society’s virtues, she’s rebelling against her parents’ instruction to suppress and hide her powers. That’s the “good girl” behavior she’s referring to. “Conceal don’t feel.” Conceal your powers by suppressing your emotions. That’s what her parents taught due to the fear and danger of her powers.
The powers are ambiguous and could be, hypothetically, the power of seduction or sexuality. I’m not saying that’s what the writers had in mind but just en example of how some things indeed should be suppressed and perhaps your parents know what they are talking about after all.
@@soldieroftruth77 I’m sorry but did you even see the movie? It’s her ice powers and only her ice powers. Any power of sexuality perceived is driven purely by your own attraction. Name ONE scene where her sex powers are implied.
Nothing offends a feminist more than being told to control herself
That she is not like God, deciding Good and Evil
You just described why “Let It Go” is one of Disney’s best villain songs.
Her parents were the monarchs. Surely that represents the best of society, the pinnacle, even.
💯💯
I am so tired of the race baiting.
C.S. Lewis has been dead for years he never heard of “Wicked”. His understanding of it women was very limited.
Perelandra is not a very good novel? That take alone discredits a lot of what you say. And kind of explains House of Love and Death.
Perelandra is one of the best novels I've ever read. Klavan is drunk, once again
Gain of function for Sickle Cell?
Eve is the first feminist. Adam is the first simp.
Lol ummm, no.
@@artistjuliadocherty Yes. Eve listened to a talking snake instead of God. And Adam listened to his wife instead of God. Men and women need to listen to God. If Adam would have brought Eve to God after she had sinned and begged God to forgive her, they would have remained in paradise.
The movie isn't saying that rebellion is good for it's own sake😂
It's pretty clear that it's because of the pogrom against the animals.
You literally acknowledge that and that ignore it later to say its about rebellion for rebellion sake.
Also, the reversal of protagonist/antagonist is a pretty common trope in retellings. Shrek, Maleficent etc. There's no crisis here. Relax
Yeah the crisis is outside
I agree but he might have an issue more so with how addicted Hollywood is to rebellion stories. Not just if they are justified or not.
@philipb7400 Man vs. Society is a very common and long mythic tradition, as far as Moses. Or Lone Ranger vs. Robber Baron or Robin Hood v Sheriff of Nottingham. It is not inherently Leftist by any means. And it makes for pretty great stories.
You're kind of missing the point of his critique. He wasn't just saying it’s 'rebellion for rebellion’s sake'. he was questioning the morality of glorifying rebellion as a whole. Bringing up the "pogrom" against animals or comparing it to other tropes like 'Shrek' doesn’t really address his argument. Seems like a strawman.
@RachelRichards Wasn't America founded by a rebellion? Why would that be bad in and of itself to Klavan. Listen to him again. He distinguishes between rebellion against Adam and God versus other kinds of rebellion.
First like and comment 🗣️
BFD.