When I bought my workstation, just a few years ago, how the piano patches sounded was STILL a massive factor. Because I couldn't imagine not having a decent piano sound. The EP/Rhodes/Wurli was important too, but I knew I could build most sounds from scratch if I needed to, but I'd never get close to a GOOD acoustic piano sound if there wasn't one already on board.
I really dislike the grand piano on the Ableton Move. It is incredibly short (I estimate less than 10 seconds though I didn’t measure it properly). If you play higher up, a C5, it turns into very short plucky sounds that sound absolutely nothing like a piano any more. The Seqtrak, although a cheaper groovebox than the Ableton Move, has a very decent piano (no wonder since it is a Yahama device) that rings long at both the low end and the high end. I also tested the OP XY which has a very muted piano on board (meant for ambient music) but that piano has still a very nice sustain, really love it too. Though if you want a piano that sounds like a piano the Seqtrak is the clear winner for these 3 boxes.
Sounds like they made a "one sample" piano, then. ;-) The fact that every PCM synth has its piano sound right on the first preset slot tells about its importance.
I would expect the SeqTrak to have a sorted out piano since they make acoustic pianos. It would be problematic if they didn’t. They like using their own acoustic pianos.
I tested patch 1 and patch 2 on a Kurzweil 2600XS, which is from 1999. A bit less than 20s on both. My Knabe grand piano from 1907 is 55s or so. The problem with a test like this is that it doesn't really translate to a real-world situation. The piano on the Kurzweil, at least to my ears, sounds quite good, better than many more recent synths.
Thank you very much! You're right, it's not that of an important metric for most styles of music, but if you're trying to create those "elegic piano" type of tunes, a Korg M1 won't cut it. Plus if I pay over $100 for a plugin I think I can expect that the length of the patches is somewhere near the real thing... I'll add your findings to the list!
@@mr_floydst Agree about the $100 plugin. Funny you should mention the Korg M1. It seems to be a legend, and was impressive for it's time but I used one as a rehearsal keyboard for quite some time and didn't like the sound of it at all. Forgot to mention, I really enjoy your channel, thanks for all of the work you do. I'm considering picking up a Zynthian v5.1 to fool around with. I'm not much of a groovebox guy but a small plugin host would be handy. I'm also thinking about a small Windows computer to use for hosting things like the Arturia suite or Cantabile so I could ditch my laptop.
That was fun. If I was using a sampled piano, however, I'd prefer they spend more memory on higher-quality and more layers than to have long sustain. I don't think I'm ever letting notes ring that long. I'm a Pianoteq user myself, and I think if you upgrade to the highest tier, you can probably crank the sustain to ridiculous levels. I know a couple of people who like to tweak Pianoteq to its limits to make it sound like unlike real pianos.
I agree. The expressiveness of an instrument is more important than being able to play ambient music. But then again, if someone charges me a lot of money for the experience, then he/she/it better do everything technically possible to deliver an experience as close to the original as possible.
EMU's 1994 UltraProteus has a dynamite couple piano samples. Preset 1's Piano I was quite happy with for quite a long time, aside from its native compromising 36,000 samples per second and 16-voice polyphony which drops the oldest sustained not before its time. I never tested one note's sustain duration . I want one back here so I can get into that Z-Plane Filter scheme I did not explore enough.
There were some modules/synths with great or at least usable piano sounds in the 90s. The Kurzweil Micropiano for example still holds up, if I remember correctly. These boxes usually had a short slice of real piano and then cleverly crossfaded a synthesized sound with some high quality digital filters.
@@mr_floydst Kurzweil was the best for piano sounds in 90s. Then Yamaha was fighting with S90/ES… Now is Clavia Nord from what I can see (talking about hardware only here) - those “Ferrari” synths are seen everywhere 😁.
@@mr_floydst Not really, unless you meant for a future video, in which case, I'd love to see 'Pi5 + USB Audio Interface + DAW' to see if that's workable.
I don't have a Focusrite, but in that video, I'm using a standard USB audio interface from 3:19 on, creating a whole song with drums and synths and effects ;-)
Hey, thank you very much! Yes, I had a TG500 here last year for a couple of weeks. That was a very 90s dance piano, useful for playing staccato chords as it was de rigueur in the early 90s.
I understand the appeal of long notes (I also enjoy ambient) but in all seriousness, the quality and realusm of the sound is more important. You can extend the duration of a note with a good transparent reverb, correctly tweeked. What I absolutly detest is when you can cearly hear looping ocorring.
Yes, I entirely agree. But with the tech available, you should get both. As I said in the beginning, the whole premise of the video is kind of silly ;-)
@mr_floydst not silly at all. A long sustain piano note or chord makes for a wonderful drone you can lay ideas on. As a synth user I recognize the charm. Incidently, I got a Korg Triton Vst just for that
@@mr_floydst They don't , but you're so right. It's one of the best parts of Zynthian for sure. Utterly superb and by far the best sounding piano of any of them... for
I think most of us did. ;-) To be honest, one can simple adapt by changing the style of playing/composing, but sometimes there's a craving for playing slow, drawn-out notes with lots of sustain pedals. Synths just wouldn't allow that up till some 10 years ago.
For MU2000 and EX5 you can extend sound as you want using EGs, because they use looped samples. That doesn’t mean they would sound better :) . Some plugins are not using looped samples. Pianoteq is in a different league (physical modeling - that’s the future IMO). The test is not very practical (musical) - rather “scientific”.
Thanks for your feedback! Yes, as I said in the beginning, it's kind of silly, but somewhat interesting ;-) Nonetheless, I think if you're selling a piano emulation, then do it properly, which also means plan for 1 minute sustain phases.
If your synth has a good-sounding filter and you get the resonance just right, you can get some very pleasant-sounding results. The Roland D50 and the Kawai GMega did this when sample ROM was really expensive, and it was quite convincing (at the time).
@@mr_floydstThat’s true. But depending on your music “short sample” piano might work better. For example, I don’t think someone would preferred multi-GB or real piano to M1 one for house music. 😂
I'm sorry, I neither own the plugin nor the hardware. Perhaps other viewers can add the info? (I remember it's really short, suitable for early 90s dance music)
Going to be a smart ass here but the CS1x piano sound can ring out as long as you hold the key in with the sustain all the way up. Hehe. Only rompler I know of that does that with a piano sound.
Sadly, you're right. The piano on EX5 wasn't one of the highlights. It sounds like it has a chorus effect on it baked into the samples (most likely because they reversed and crossfaded the sustain part of the sample)
Yes, the “Simplicity 3” patch has some strong chorusing by default. It can be tweaked though. But in any case it will not match Kurzweil K2600 sample, for example. On other hand I have noticed that Yamaha ROM samples blend with other sounds rather well and sit in the mix, while can be pretty ugly in solo. Also, it worth remembering that Yamaha AWM used LPC-compression, which is lossy. I think they tried to put into 16MB wave ROM as much as they could at the time. So they “packed” 29MB of samples there. Which translates to almost 2x compression. BTW: Would be nice to see popular stage pianos in the test - Nord Piano / Stage…
Here's your collected feedback, I hope there'll be more as time goes by ;-)
0. CS1X - endless sustain, basically ;-) (thanks, @dreamstaticsounds)
1. Kurzweil 2600XS - around 20s (thanks, @RandyPiscione)
2. Yamaha SY 77 - 10s (thanks @sonic2gr)
3. Ableton Move - < 10s (thanks, @jantuitman)
What I like about Pianoteq, is that it performs very nicely, without taking more than 55MB on my iPad
Pianoteq is an astounding achievement.
When I bought my workstation, just a few years ago, how the piano patches sounded was STILL a massive factor. Because I couldn't imagine not having a decent piano sound. The EP/Rhodes/Wurli was important too, but I knew I could build most sounds from scratch if I needed to, but I'd never get close to a GOOD acoustic piano sound if there wasn't one already on board.
I'll try to do the experiment when I get a chance and post it here. Unless somebody supplies it before me.
Which workstation did you get?
Workstation type synth pianos got really good only some years ago. Let it be 5 to 10, before that, they provided "dance pianos" mostly.
I really dislike the grand piano on the Ableton Move. It is incredibly short (I estimate less than 10 seconds though I didn’t measure it properly). If you play higher up, a C5, it turns into very short plucky sounds that sound absolutely nothing like a piano any more. The Seqtrak, although a cheaper groovebox than the Ableton Move, has a very decent piano (no wonder since it is a Yahama device) that rings long at both the low end and the high end. I also tested the OP XY which has a very muted piano on board (meant for ambient music) but that piano has still a very nice sustain, really love it too. Though if you want a piano that sounds like a piano the Seqtrak is the clear winner for these 3 boxes.
Sounds like they made a "one sample" piano, then. ;-)
The fact that every PCM synth has its piano sound right on the first preset slot tells about its importance.
I would expect the SeqTrak to have a sorted out piano since they make acoustic pianos. It would be problematic if they didn’t. They like using their own acoustic pianos.
Silly, but fun!
Thanks!
I tested patch 1 and patch 2 on a Kurzweil 2600XS, which is from 1999. A bit less than 20s on both. My Knabe grand piano from 1907 is 55s or so. The problem with a test like this is that it doesn't really translate to a real-world situation. The piano on the Kurzweil, at least to my ears, sounds quite good, better than many more recent synths.
Thank you very much! You're right, it's not that of an important metric for most styles of music, but if you're trying to create those "elegic piano" type of tunes, a Korg M1 won't cut it. Plus if I pay over $100 for a plugin I think I can expect that the length of the patches is somewhere near the real thing... I'll add your findings to the list!
@@mr_floydst Agree about the $100 plugin. Funny you should mention the Korg M1. It seems to be a legend, and was impressive for it's time but I used one as a rehearsal keyboard for quite some time and didn't like the sound of it at all. Forgot to mention, I really enjoy your channel, thanks for all of the work you do. I'm considering picking up a Zynthian v5.1 to fool around with. I'm not much of a groovebox guy but a small plugin host would be handy. I'm also thinking about a small Windows computer to use for hosting things like the Arturia suite or Cantabile so I could ditch my laptop.
That was fun. If I was using a sampled piano, however, I'd prefer they spend more memory on higher-quality and more layers than to have long sustain. I don't think I'm ever letting notes ring that long. I'm a Pianoteq user myself, and I think if you upgrade to the highest tier, you can probably crank the sustain to ridiculous levels. I know a couple of people who like to tweak Pianoteq to its limits to make it sound like unlike real pianos.
I agree. The expressiveness of an instrument is more important than being able to play ambient music. But then again, if someone charges me a lot of money for the experience, then he/she/it better do everything technically possible to deliver an experience as close to the original as possible.
EMU's 1994 UltraProteus has a dynamite couple piano samples.
Preset 1's Piano I was quite happy with for quite a long time, aside from its native compromising 36,000 samples per second and 16-voice polyphony which drops the oldest sustained not before its time.
I never tested one note's sustain duration .
I want one back here so I can get into that Z-Plane Filter scheme I did not explore enough.
There were some modules/synths with great or at least usable piano sounds in the 90s. The Kurzweil Micropiano for example still holds up, if I remember correctly. These boxes usually had a short slice of real piano and then cleverly crossfaded a synthesized sound with some high quality digital filters.
@@reverend11-dmeow89 UltraProteus was Z-plane filters king! Even more filters than Morpheus. The latter had more variety of synth waveforms though.
@@mr_floydst Kurzweil was the best for piano sounds in 90s. Then Yamaha was fighting with S90/ES… Now is Clavia Nord from what I can see (talking about hardware only here) - those “Ferrari” synths are seen everywhere 😁.
More interesting than you might imagine from the title :oP
If you have a rough idea for a better title, please don't hold back ;-)
@@mr_floydst Not really, unless you meant for a future video, in which case, I'd love to see 'Pi5 + USB Audio Interface + DAW' to see if that's workable.
I think you were looking for this video: ua-cam.com/video/I16RnfeZ-mY/v-deo.html
I mean, like a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, so it's possible to do multi-track recordings and MIDI like any PC with a SoundBlaster could.
I don't have a Focusrite, but in that video, I'm using a standard USB audio interface from 3:19 on, creating a whole song with drums and synths and effects ;-)
About 10 secs in SY77 default preset Grand piano. Though the length is the least of it's problems.
Hey, thank you very much!
Yes, I had a TG500 here last year for a couple of weeks. That was a very 90s dance piano, useful for playing staccato chords as it was de rigueur in the early 90s.
I understand the appeal of long notes (I also enjoy ambient) but in all seriousness, the quality and realusm of the sound is more important. You can extend the duration of a note with a good transparent reverb, correctly tweeked. What I absolutly detest is when you can cearly hear looping ocorring.
Yes, I entirely agree. But with the tech available, you should get both.
As I said in the beginning, the whole premise of the video is kind of silly ;-)
@mr_floydst not silly at all. A long sustain piano note or chord makes for a wonderful drone you can lay ideas on. As a synth user I recognize the charm. Incidently, I got a Korg Triton Vst just for that
Pianoteq is by far the best and only piano anyone should be using. It's perfect, superb and as a physical model, not sample based
I guess they don't license their product for use in hardware synths? Otherwise, I agree, Pianoteq is an astounding piece of software.
@@mr_floydst They don't , but you're so right. It's one of the best parts of Zynthian for sure. Utterly superb and by far the best sounding piano of any of them... for
Brilliant! I lived through the time when this was reasonable!
I think most of us did. ;-) To be honest, one can simple adapt by changing the style of playing/composing, but sometimes there's a craving for playing slow, drawn-out notes with lots of sustain pedals. Synths just wouldn't allow that up till some 10 years ago.
For MU2000 and EX5 you can extend sound as you want using EGs, because they use looped samples. That doesn’t mean they would sound better :) . Some plugins are not using looped samples. Pianoteq is in a different league (physical modeling - that’s the future IMO).
The test is not very practical (musical) - rather “scientific”.
Thanks for your feedback! Yes, as I said in the beginning, it's kind of silly, but somewhat interesting ;-)
Nonetheless, I think if you're selling a piano emulation, then do it properly, which also means plan for 1 minute sustain phases.
I was thinking about this the other day, some use a synthesised tone for the ring out.
If your synth has a good-sounding filter and you get the resonance just right, you can get some very pleasant-sounding results. The Roland D50 and the Kawai GMega did this when sample ROM was really expensive, and it was quite convincing (at the time).
@@mr_floydstThat’s true. But depending on your music “short sample” piano might work better. For example, I don’t think someone would preferred multi-GB or real piano to M1 one for house music. 😂
As the Korg M1 is said to be the best selling Synth , I would have liked how it would have done in this comparison.
I'm sorry, I neither own the plugin nor the hardware. Perhaps other viewers can add the info?
(I remember it's really short, suitable for early 90s dance music)
It had the famous *house piano*, fun and iconic but unrealistic.
Hi Floyd... try the Roland FP90X, Phenomenal piano sound and note length.
Thanks for your suggestion - if I ever stumble across one, I'll do :-)
Going to be a smart ass here but the CS1x piano sound can ring out as long as you hold the key in with the sustain all the way up. Hehe. Only rompler I know of that does that with a piano sound.
Interesting! By this definition, CS1x wins. :-)
It's not the size that counts Floyd.....but how long it lasts 🤣
Heyyyyy, please don't make 2% of my viewership feel uncomfortable ;-)
The MU2000 sounds good, the EX5... damn, it's ugly and plasticky...
Sadly, you're right. The piano on EX5 wasn't one of the highlights. It sounds like it has a chorus effect on it baked into the samples (most likely because they reversed and crossfaded the sustain part of the sample)
Yes, the “Simplicity 3” patch has some strong chorusing by default. It can be tweaked though. But in any case it will not match Kurzweil K2600 sample, for example. On other hand I have noticed that Yamaha ROM samples blend with other sounds rather well and sit in the mix, while can be pretty ugly in solo.
Also, it worth remembering that Yamaha AWM used LPC-compression, which is lossy. I think they tried to put into 16MB wave ROM as much as they could at the time. So they “packed” 29MB of samples there. Which translates to almost 2x compression.
BTW: Would be nice to see popular stage pianos in the test - Nord Piano / Stage…