North America's Surviving Streetcar Networks | Philadelphia Trolley
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2022
- Philadelphia has North America's other major legacy streetcar networks, and it has really good plans to modernize it! Let's take a look at another one of this railway cities surprisingly impressive pieces of infrastructure!
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Hi, my name's Reece. I'm a passionate Creator, Transportation Planner, and Software Developer, interested in rapid transportation all around my home base of Toronto, Canada, as well as the whole world!
Philadelphia is one of the most underrated cities in North America not just for transit but in a lot of other things as well.
Yes
It would be really nice for there to be light rail on the existing right of way on Delaware Ave/Columbus blvd, and while I’m dreaming how about a circle line to connect south, west, and north philly without going through center city, and light rail (revamped 15 style) on Washington ave.
@@Bdsteck The Delaware Ave line is (somewhat) in the works, although it'll likely end up part of a separate network than the existing trolleys (not even connecting to them anywhere) and possibly operated by a different entity. It's a weird situation, but I guess we'll see what happens.
It's definitely got a lot of potential, it's set up to be a bigger more important city.
@@spacepeanut I didn’t know it was in the works I thought I saw somewhere that it was being blocked by freight lines. It being operated by a separate entity would be unfortunate for riders. It should at least have a pedestrian bridge connection to the MFL at 2nd street, even if that just means a new stairway and hopefully elevator to the existing market street road bridge.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I live in Philly and I’m working with SEPTA on a trolley related project, so I do get to hear some internal stuff about the trolley modernization. For one, SEPTA hired a bunch of new planners who have Planning backgrounds, so they just kind of get what the system needs (still a lot to criticize, especially regarding the new bus service proposals but I digress). They are actually looking into implementing exclusive right-of-ways and one will be proposed in the project I’m working on. The engineers at SEPTA seem quite hesitant about green tracks, though I don’t know exactly why. I think they have the typical concerns about maintenance and access for emergency vehicles, despite those concerns being mostly unfounded. Philly needs more green storm water infrastructure where it can get it because we have incredibly bad flooding issues made worse by the city’s old combined sewers (see Vine St expressway flooding in 2021 for reference of how bad it can get).
Overall, I hope that the plans are actually implemented and don’t get stuck in a hell loop of endless planning and subpar implementation that is so common for Philly.
huh? Vine street was a major pump failure. Philly only floods where they shouldn't have built (Manyunk lower than Main St and SW Philly) You can't have Trolley right of ways because Philadelphia is a dense grid and you'd be cutting off all the pedestrians who would be crossing at every intersection. Even banning cars the people don't go away.
Fingers crossed!
@@ihateregistrationbul The Stadtbahn system in Stuttgart, Germany has exclusive right of way 90 percent of the time, but there are pedestrian crossings with lights wherever there is one needed. So no problem at all.
@@ihateregistrationbul A pump might’ve failed but you can’t say that flooding was caused by a pump failure you can only say it took them longer to fix the problem because of a pump failure, The flooding was caused by poorly designed infrastructure and record water levels in the river. Also yeah you wouldn’t be able to have the trolley have its own right of way on any single lane street unless maybe you eliminated parking on that street, or eliminated private vehicles, but you could definitely have the trolley have its own right of way on Gerard Avenue
@@ihateregistrationbul We have 2 already, and had 2 others on mothballed lines. Island and Girard Aves have pedestrian walkways, no problem. Erie Ave still has it, and Ogontz had painted lines through to Cheltenham from 67th Ave. We can do!
Big learning opportunity from Toronto: Give Signal Priority. I was on the Harbour Front line all weekend, and everything about it feels like an LRT, but then it still takes forever to go station to station due to the lights. Low cost upgrade, high service difference.
Absolutely strong signal priority is incredibly important for decent service with surface vehicles as large as these.
509 is not that bad. 510 is way worse, I can walk faster than it😅 Definitely a huge waste of the dedicated lane
America definitely needs to learn from water priority to fix its land priority. With boats/ships the basic rule is the least maneuverable and then biggest vessel gets priority. (These are usually the same, but you will note the swimmers and fishermen are the least maneuverable so they rank very high, but also naturally avoid being in a main shipping channel)
This translates onto land by giving trains and buses priority when possible. (Also a designated lane when possible) I always find it strange when a doesn't just implicitly get priority because I'm used to frieght trains that are litterally a mile long and make "unplanned stops" 2 miles after the brakes were applied. Obviously passenger rail is much more capable of stopping but it fits so many more people in the same space so that it should be a no brainer to prioritize them.
@@jasonreed7522 The same reason I, as a pedestrian, will often give up my right of way to trucks and buses whenever I approach a zebra crossing. It's much harder for them to break (and more importantly, accelerate) than for me, and they'll usually be long gone by the time I actually reach the curb, given they keep rolling and don't start breaking for me.
In European tram systems the tram often supersedes all other forms of traffic (by law) when it comes to right of way and can change the traffic lights.
It’s the easiest right of way question on the driving theory exam. If there’s a tram involved, the answer is: the tram.
The issue with SEPTA and Port Authority modernizing is they receive most of their funding from Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, the state is controlled by the party against funding public transit. I’ve lived through so many funding and service cuts. I would describe our transit as better than most of America but still Inadequate making people choose cars over the bus. Transit riders deserve so much better.
Not just PA but all over America. And Philly is an old city that built up with transit.
Even Los Angeles before all the streetcar routes there were torn out in the 1950s.
Transit and rail is coming back out of necessity. The skies are maxed out with planes
and the roads with cars and trucks. Rail is underused and about to come back, I say.
@@michaelrmurphy2734 Long distance trolleys aren't financially feasible. The rolling stock alone is 5x a bus. It wasn't GM, GM just took advantage.
People choose car over bus because it’s door to door in winter weather. Are people still so stuck in their thinking that t they think it’s just a matter of a better bus still????
Indeed it definitely is better but it has so so far to go
@@xr6lad no wonder why people there are becoming very unhealthy. They need to walk a lot more.
I grew up in Philadelphia and we had 3 different trolley lines in front of our house. I believe they have turned most of them to buses now. The route 23 as a trolley had the longest route in the world.
They even split the Route 23 bus route a few years back. The South Philly portion is now Route 45 with a forced transfer in Center City.
23 was never the longest in the world.
it was only the longest to run entirely in city streets without a right of way.
@@blue9multimediagroup It actually was the longest in the world until it’s end in 1992
Also, Septa is doing a study on bringing back the route 56(Erie and Torresdale Avenues)Trolley and Route 23 Germantown Avenue and 11th and 12th Street) and Route 45(11th and 12th Street) in South Philadelphia. The ROW on Route 23 north of Market Street is still completely intact a portion was even rebuilt in 2008. A 3 Mile Strip on Erie avenue in the center of the road still has the trackage intact.
Yes
Where'd you find this study? I've yet to see any indication that SEPTA is considering bringing back any of the old surface lines. In fact, I saw them deny that they were looking into Route 23 just last week. And actually, no, the 23 ROW north of Market is, in fact, not intact (I would know, I lived next to it for two years). The only fully intact portion is on Germantown Ave (and it would almost certainly have to be reconstructed for actual service to resume). Erie is another story, though, but it also needs a lot of work to bring it back to working order.
@@spacepeanut they seem to keep saying they WILL study it every time there’s a strategic document and then do absolutely nothing toward actually getting it done.
From a distance I’m pretty sceptical about 23, but the rest really do look worth bringing back…
I'm personally a bit hesitant to bring back any of those old lines until we've fixed up the existing network. Also, they need to be brought back by truly incorporating them into the new Philadelphia trolley line standards (i.e. ADA accessibility, well-spaced stops, modern LRVs, etc.). If they ain't gonna do that, then there's little benefit they'll have over the existing buses.
@@spacepeanut If you've seen Richmond Street Recently you would have probably seen that the Track has been upgraded and stops have higher platforms on the curb for more level boarding. I would like to see that with Germantown Avenue. Also, I believe that Route 23 should end somewhere between 11th and Susquehanna and Broad and Erie if I would come back as a trolley. Route 56 trolley would probably stay the same with an track extension to Bakers Centre.
Hell yeah, finally some Philly content on RMTransit!
Classic old school trams?! Streetcars on rails?! Now I want to go there!
@@michaelrmurphy2734 In Philly, they're called trolleys and nothing other than trolleys.
Haha, more to come!
@@michaelrmurphy2734 The old PCCs are being rehabbed right now, they'll be back in a year or two. The rest of the system is fully operational right now, though. We also have a fully electrified 15 line S-bahn system, 4 rapid transit lines, America's last proper interurban, the 101 (the south shore line used to be an interurban but is now just commuter rail), great history (the birthplace of modern democracy), and most the city lives in 2 and 3 story brick rowhouses!
@@michaelrmurphy2734 and a 4 track trackless trolley (electrified overhead) bus line. And two gauges of subway.
You know those PCC’s used in Philly for Route 15 are completely rebuilt trolleys manufactured by Brookville Equipment which has a niche for building modern trolleys and rebuilding historic streetcars. The shells are from the 1940s but everything else is new. And unlike the rest of the current Kawasaki fleet these streetcars have wheelchair lifts making Route 15 ADA compliant.
Brookville Equipment even built for New Orleans their replica Perley A. Thomas style streetcars for the Canal St and Waterfront lines. You should do a video on the New Orleans trolley system.
I wish I had gotten to ride an actual trolley/tram when I visited in August, but 15 was replaced with a bus on weekends. If was pretty wild when the bus was driving in the trolley ROW at 30+mph 😂
im a philly resident, this is a great video. couple things about the 15: while they were manufactured in the 40s, they were completely remanufactured in 2000 and they're getting remanufactured again currently (hence why fun fact, the 15 is the only accessible route). also its the only route that runs 100% in mixed traffic (unless you count running in left turn only lanes)
I like the old cars. So cool! And the first scene of Bruce Springsteen's video for Human Touch?
What is Bruce riding? Not any of his classic cars. He is on the streetcar!
as a Philadelphian (now on transit-less Kansas City) we are dickheads on the road. cars aren't the only ones who block trolleys. delivery drivers does, too.
but our trolley network can make our transit 100% better if planned right and if NIMBYS don't get in the way.
It's good to hear that despite the issues it's still seen as a valuable part of the network
Don't forget the politicians from the "tucky" part of "Pennsyltucky". I may be an independent that leans conservative, but unless Harrisburg wants to sign I-76, I-95, and the Roosevelt Boulevard over to the Turnpike Commission to rebuild them as 10-lane highways, SEPTA will need to to upgrade the light-rail fleet as well as look into new rolling stock for the Market-Frankford Line and Broad Street Subway.
@@rwboa22 New cars for the MFL, SEPTA is working on, it's more difficult for the BSL/BRS, as the City owns the tunnel that the BSL/BRS (and the city portion of PATCO) run in and co-owns the BSL/BRS subway cars, hence the City's seal on them, along with SEPTA's logo. The good news is that those cars are ADA-compliant. Perhaps the best SEPTS can do, with the City's help, which may be very unlikely, are to refurbish them, like DRPA refurbished the PATCO cars.
@@libertubey2199 hi👋
If anyone didn’t know, the Kawasaki streetcars were built with stainless steel frames which are rust resistant frames and were better designed and better maintained thru out the years
hence why the BSL is so robust.
I didn't know that about the Kawasaki cars. I remember when they introduced the Kawasaki cars on the BSL in 1981. I was a senior in high school, and they were using them in between the old Budd cars. I let the Budd cars go by when I saw the new one behind it. They were sleek and modern and the conductor announced each station. Since then Septa eliminated the conductor postion and made the engineer do the doors as well as drive, but they added an automated voice to announce the stations. Fast forward to 2022 and the Cars still look new after 41 years of service. I heard somewhere they have ordered or will be ordering new cars soon.
I can see the entire fleet being replaced by Siemens S700's. It is America's tram (designed by Germans). I actually like how much they're standardizing American light rail around it. It's a versatile workhorse of an LRV.
I thought most trolleys in the US were Kinki Sharyos.
Well, the SEPTA Board meets this Thursday (02/23/2023) to vote on giving the trolley manufacturing contract to Alstom, which would make sense for both its legacy track infrastructure and clearance in the subway tunnel. If approved, and there are little to no delays, the first trolley will be delivered in 2027. No word on whether it will be the Citadis model, particularly the Citadis Spirit found on Ottawa's O-Line and the soon to open West Finch LRT Line, or the Flexity model inherited when Alstom acquired Bombardier. The Flexity model in the U.S. can be found on Minneapolis/St. Paul's Light Rail System, Houston's Light Rail System, and Maryland DOT's under construction Purple Line. All were purchased prior to Alstom acquiring Bombardier. If SEPTA goes with the Citadis model, then unless MBTA have done so, SEPTA will be the first U.S. transit agency to acquire the Citadis model.
As an outsider who recently visited Philly for a concert, the one thing I noticed was that it felt like I was being discouraged to use mass transit while in the city. We had an AirBnB about half a block away from the center city end of the Patco line. Since it really didn't seem like it was going where we wanted to go, we never used it. I was originally hoping that I could use one of the in town rail lines to get from one of the commuter rail stations to a stop close to our AirBnB - but alas it really wasn't easy enough to figure out - hence we walked the 1.2 miles. Even going to the Mann Center where our concert was, ending up being a little stressful in that there was a single bus running on a special "line" from city center to the venue. We did catch it, but it was still mind blowing that for a concert in a city it appeared that all but the 30 or so concert-goers on the bus ended up driving there. I do admit, we could have taken one of the trolleys to a stop within 0.6 miles of the venue, but I was kind of hoping for more.
I WILL say that I did really really like SEPTAs setup for trains to and from the airport. We ended up at Suburban station as the closest stop to where we were staying, and it was a super easy 25 minute one seat ride to the airport. All of our relatives and friends who said the only way to get in was via Uber, Lyft or Taxi, and this was by far so much better. Props to SEPTA for this connection!
I've found Mann Loop bus to be empty on the way there. I anticipate many people might get there via taxi or rideshare, with the Septa Mann Loop return as that's very time efficient - you can come straight from dinner there, and the bus at the end is primed for easy exit when it departs where a rideshare would have to fight heavy traffic in and out after a concert.
Philadelphian here who is very excited to see Trolley Modernization happen one day. I've always felt the 15 was underrated and under-utilized as a "ring line" connecting the two subway lines and parts of West Philly that aren't well served by trains. One of my greatest Philly wish list projects is a similar crosstown trolley line on either Washington or Snyder Avenue in South Philly. Would not only be great as a feeder to the Broad Street Line, but if connected to West Philly, it would eliminate the need to go downtown to get into West Philly.
Excellent video as always! Would be curious to hear your opinions on SEPTA's newest surveys/details regarding the Regional Rail improvement, too.
Yes please! Washington as a crosstown line into West Philly up the very wide 38th street jogging over to 40th. Ultimately link it up with Girard. And to make it a real loop from the eastern end of Washington, run up Delaware Ave to Girard.
It's good to see Philly getting some love.
I used to take the Girard Street PCC trolley with my son to visit the Philly zoo. I used to take the #23 Germantown trolley from W. Mt Airy to my job in N. Philly. I wish that both of these lines had priority over cars; Philly drivers are excessively aggressive. Great video RMTransit. I hope Philly can modernize it's trolley system
Sadly the Route 23 trolley is now a bus and Route 15 is "temporarily" a bus, but we might see some transit prioritization measures on Girard and Germantown soon.
So exciting to see you covering philly again!!! This city has what is probably Americas best transit legacy infrastructure that is dripping with massive potential to be modernized. Septa, philly, and the state of PA have failed to uphold the amazing transit legacy of our state and the old PRR so videos like thee help bring attention and push for positive changes. Also, it would be super cool to see you cover the Norristown high speed line specifically as it is a very unique mode as a whole.
I had no idea the 101 was so unique! I love that line.
I used to live right along it. There was a station in my neighborhood. It was so convenient to get into the city. I may shed a tear when they replace the current trolleys. They have a special place in my heart.
@@losh330 That’s how I’ll feel when the MFL M4s get replaced, such beautiful train cars but has a cursed route
Philly used to have streetcars on EVERY BLOCK. It’s insane. They were replaced with buses mostly.
A lot of the blame goes to National City Lines, who took over the PTC in the early/mid 1950s. Within three years they'd converted two dozen trolley lines to buses (GM, of course) and abandoned three more entirely. Sadly their mindset infected PTC's, and later SEPTA's management for decades, with "bustitution" continuing until the 1990s. At this point the only remaining lines are Route 15, sporadically operating with refurbished PCC cars, and the subway-surface lines than can't be bustituted 'cuz they're partly underground.
I wish Chicago had trams like this, Chicago used to have the most extensive streetcar system on the continent until they were replaced by diesel buses.
Love that you made this video. I just did my thesis on bringing back the Philly trolley routes abandoned in the 80s and 90s.
Tell us more!
@@robertcartwright4374 I will if y’all want haha. I literally just finished and presented a few days ago
I have also done a very similar presentation lol. It's a rite of passage for Philly transit nerds.
Do a collab with Reese! Wavemaker on RMTransit !
Ok, hold up.
The Route 15 was like the E and F lines of MUNI, a Heritage line that also provides major service, the PCCs are essentially just PCC shells on heavily modernised chassis (like that in SF).
Interesting.
Yeah, and funnily enough they're the only ADA compliant trolleys in SEPTA's fleet.
I like the funky old vehicles! "Where the brand new LRVs, climb half way through the trees"!
Tony Bennett would never sing something like THAT! There is a reason the CABLE CARS
climb halfway to the stars! Or even the 100 year old parts of the NY or Paris or London underground. Keep the PCCs! I like them. Here where I live there were streetcars until the 1940s. Then rubber tired trolleycoaches in the 1950s-1960s. Diesel buses only came here in the 1970s. So many people (myself included) think the electric transit should have been kept.
15 was never heritage. It doesn't serve anything historic.
It's just the closest surviving surface line to Center City so it's easy to show off to bigwigs.
And no, the cars in SF are original PCC bodies with very little upgrades. The cars here in Philly were rebuilt fully. The only thing original about them is the frame and even it was rebuilt to accommodate turn signals and HVAC.
Please do a Philly video to go over all transit, not just the Trolleys. It is super interesting.
You won't need a car ram to get the cars to stop parking on the trolley tracks. We have one of the most onerous parking authorities in the country, so much so that a reality show was formed from whole cloth just to document it (Parking Wars). All we'd have to do is set them loose when it's time
They used to do that - years ago I watched PPA trucks shove cars off the Route 23 tracks, but people started whining about their "privileges".
I had never heard of Pennsylvania gauge until this video, so I had to look it up. Philadelphia Trolleys, the Market - Frankford Line, and Pittsburgh trolleys use the gauge at 5 foot 2 1/4 / 5 foot 2 1/2 inches vs. the standard gauge of 4 foot 8 1/2 inches. I lived in Philadelphia for 7 years and didn't know this.
Yeah, it's especially hard to tell that the MFL is a wider gauge because those cars are so much more cramped than the standard gauge BSL cars. I guess the loading gauge is probably narrower. Or they're just terribly designed cars.
@@spacepeanut both.
smaller loading gauge and crappy cars
Pennsylvania gauge was designed to be just narrow enough to prevent three-rail tracking but just wide enough to prevent using wide-flange wheels. Its continued existence precludes major expansions and any kind of interconnectivity with standard-gauge lines. Unfortunately regauging the existing tracks to standard width would be prohibitively expensive.
I would love to see you cover Helsinki's extensive tram and metro system.
Stay tuned!
@@RMTransit Reese is booking with Finnair right now...!
@@RMTransit Also the fantastic commuter rail system would be great to have a look at.
@@RMTransit Keep in mind that Helsinki has Variotrams which were an experiment that demonstrated that the Helsinki (legacy) system was not suitable for the 100% low floor types available at the time of their purchase.
The problem comes down to the geometry of that configuration.
Coming back to comment something I missed since I'm going on a RMTransit marathon, the PCCs we use are actually called PCC IIs, and are technically newer than our Kawasaki's. They were built using PCC shells, but are basically a whole new trolley underneath. Wheelchair lifts were added in the back doorway, and they were painted in heritage colors, to commemorate the PTC.
I think for the 30th Street Revamp project there was a render for an underground concourse connecting the Train Station to the Subway and Trolley station
Yes, they plan to have a (at least partially) naturally-lit commercial concourse. There's already a tunnel there from when they used to be connected, but it was sealed decades ago.
Very exciting to hear that's moving along!
@@RMTransit Sad thing about that concourse is that it's already there. They closed it a few decades ago due to a crime problem in it, but the tunnel is literally still there (albeit with a pretzel shop on top of its entrance on the Amtrak side)
It was closed due to crime and muggings since you have a similar path at street level with no real advantage to the tunnel other than weather and a traffic signal. It's all still down there under the bar in the SW corner of the station.
@@tealmer3528 do you see the crime not happening again?
Philadelphia actually looks quite peaceful for a USA city. I wish more cities were like that in general.
I wouldn't go that far. It's a more "tamed" version of New York but with less of a nuisance
@@MarloSoBalJr NYC and Philly are similar, but I wouldn't go as far to say it's a "tamed" version of New York City. Especially in the transit sense (and parks, surprisingly. Philly has WAY more of those)
search for videos of "Kensington Philadelphia" you'll change your answer
@@jonw999999 Like every major city, There is a rough part. It wouldn't be smart to judge a city by only the worst aspect, then every city would be a bad one. In my experience, I've been able to enjoy Philadelphia while avoiding the more dicey parts. Even so, It's harmful to spread negative things about any city, I'd advise you to stop doing that.
@@jonw999999 Every other major (North) American city has a tough area. Philly is not the only one, and citizens need to stop acting like it is.
philly is definitely one of the places i see myself living in if i stay in the us
I lived in Philadelphia for 18 years. When I first moved there to work 3rd trick at the
B&O (now CSX) RG Tower, Eastside Yard, there were 14 streetcar lines. I prefer the word streetcar or tram over trolley even if they don't always run in the street. We had Routs 6, 10, 11, 13, 15, 23, 34, 36, 50, 53, 56, 60, 101 and 102. There had been a lot of routes closed in the past and others were shut down over the years that I lived there. Before around the early 50's, there had been over 80 routes. I think Phila. was the biggest system in the US
even bigger than Toronto making it the biggest system in North America. While I was there,
until 1990 we would loose a line or two here and there and SEPTA would say it was a temporary shut down for repair or some other thing but most of the time the line would never come back. They seemed to be very pro bus. All that was left were the subway surface lines, the red arrow lines and route 15 off and on which is off again these days.
Hopefully then, in a couple years we might see a good system again and I might have to move back to Philadelphia.
MPHicks
If the ridership doesn't warrant it, a bus is DEFINITELY better if only to get around traffic. The only advantage a trolley has is once it has the ridership to warrant multiple cars, which some of the routes arguably do or could (pre-pandemic)
@@ErdTirdMans Ridership WAS there. The PTC was taken over by National City Lines which almost immediately ripped up about two dozen lines and brought in buses (GM, of course). The few lines I'm familiar with had ridership drops when buses replaced streetcars. FWIW the five subway-surface lines are among the highest-ridership routes in all of SEPTA, bus OR light rail/streetcar.
As a Philly transit nerd, I was completely with you until you suggested SEPTA modernizing route 15's rolling stock. Absolutely not. I fucking love those trains, and they are a fixture of our city's culture at this point. I'm even opposed to changing the rest of the fleet from high floors. The early concept art of the new trolley's show that they retain the high floors.
I prefer high floors. I always liked sitting high above the cars in a transit vehicle.
High floor cars in a streetcar environment cause more dwell time when it comes to boarding and accessibility.
Gotta move into the 21st Century and stop thinking with ancient mindset.
I'm with you!
What about people with physical disabilities or injuries? That's not very forward thinking.
They are pretty nice, but accessibility is much more important than aesthetics. Talk to me when you get ramps at your streetcar stations.
You should also look
at the Norristown
High Speed line
KOP extension.
The only thing I disagree with is getting rid of the loops because it's not necessary.
Edit: I would also like to say, in Philly, we call our city center Center City.
Indeed, I like loops!
I never said to get rid of existing loops only that having bidirectional vehicles would mean you don't have to build more which would save space and be more efficient
The problem with 100% low floor trams is that they can't have proper bogies. When Gothenburg bought new trams in the middle of the 2000's (Type M32) from AnsaldoBreda they had huge problems with squeaking noises and track wear (and still have). They are now being replaced by Bombardier Flexity trams (Type M33) which are 70% low floor but have so much better comfort and are nicer to the tracks. When a network has this many tight curves, bogies are a requirement really.
this man trams. Bogeys have been the failure points for Philly's custom built elevated cars, the restored trolley 15, and our last fleet of regional rail trains. You'd think someone might have figured out how to do suspensions for trains better!
This might be selfish on my part, I get that low floor is easier for disabled people, but I'm kinda of glad San Francisco's system forces them to keep streetcars high floor. I just personally like riding them better.
And with a 33in turning radius, you're not getting 100% LF cars in Philly without issues....
While Philly still has a lot of track from its old trolley system still in the streets, that alone doesn't mean it can be used, as the rail wears the flange depth becomes shallower and Philly reduced the flanges on many of its cars to the absolute minimums so they could still ride the rails. As a city, Philly has a lot of problems and there is a consistent problem of transit funding. The transit agency is Septa that is a state creation that combines the city services and the suburban lines and the problem is asking the suburban counties that are members to increase their contributions when they have a much smaller percentage of the system pass/miles. The rail oriented suburban lines generally feed into the center city where the bulk of employment happens. The transit system has long been neglected and it spent of lot of money building the intracity connector that really hasn't lived up to its PR billing. I don't see any need to get 'pretty' streetcars since they'd be covered in graffiti within days, more important would be having more transit security personnel and a connection between transit security and the city police. You consider grade crossing in terms of their effect on automotive traffic, my issue is one of safety. I regularly rode a commuter train that crossed a busy highway at grade going 70 mph with push pull operation and the engine at the rear, I didn't sit in car one because some day a train and a dump truck will meet, it's not if but when.
It would be really nice to see Philly's trolley system revitalized with newer equipment, traffic priority, low floors, and air conditioning, having dealt with the city before I won't hold my breath waiting. Lets also talk about Pittsburgh, restoring trolley service to the north and east of the city would be great and I'd like to see trolleys on that busway.
Great job, I think you know more about the SEPTA trolley system than most people who work for SEPTA, the route 36 Eastwick Trolley should go all the way to the Airport, in times past it did go to Essington near the airport. I'd like to see the 23 restored also as a Trolley. (this used to be the worlds longest street railway.) Route 15 should go to 69th street terminal. Thanks for taking the time to review the Philly system.
There's new talk of extending the 36 to the Airport and possibly bringing the 10 to a common station with the Regional Rail system at Overbrook. Of course that takes both money and political will, both of which are in pathetically short supply in Philly.
As someone who lives in Media PA, which is right at the end of the 101 line, I love that you've delved into this. (in fact, I live a couple of blocks away from where the 101 line ends). I've been hoping that the system gets an upgrade at some point, since it's been clear for years that a lot of their trolleys are pretty dated. Still, having them is better than not having them. Knowing SEPTA and their overly ambitious statements though, I'm skeptical of if or when we get this. It's taken a lot longer than it had any business to be with getting an extension of the Media-Elwyn regional rail line to Wawa/Middletown Township, and even longer with getting that line extended to West Chester. I think Alan Fisher put it best: Philly's biggest transit problem is that it's run by SEPTA. If they've made amends for their sins, fantastic, but I'll believe it when I see it. Meanwhile, I'm loving the fact that we have a trolley in my town. And to answer something, yes, Philly drivers are that aggressive. These are the same people who support the Eagles and Flyers. A lot of truth is said in jest.
The first wave of NHL expansion in the 1960s. The Broad Street Bullies!
Hopefully we can do something about the fact that whenever it's summertime, the 101 has to stop much earlier because of those restaurant events.
Ten years ago, Taras Grescoe wrote in his book 'Straphanger' that Philadelphia was on the cusp of a transit-driven revival. I'm certainly hoping he was right!
I've never been to the city, but it's on my to-visit list.
Meanwhile, if I'm within a 20 minute of something on the Market Frankfort Line and I'm in a hurry, I walk. It's the most unreliable rail transit line I've ever experienced.
@@MichaelfromtheGraves I mean as a local you were supposed to try and live away from the MFL not live near it on purpose.
@@ihateregistrationbul too late, I live about 100' from a station.
Reece, the police always park on the tracks too. They just don't care.
I'm from the philly area but now live in Belgium. I speak from experience when I say the drivers are absolutely awful there. Any mixed row with the trams is a huge issue.
I live in philly, and use the trolley all the time, it's wonderful!
This gives me hope! I found out there used to be a street car or trackless trolley line near my house in the 40s. It was probably replaced by busses in the 70s or 80s. There were also plans to build a subway line nearby, but it never materialized.I've been following SEPTA's improvement plans a bit and it's good stuff. I would love to see shelters for bus and trolley stops in addition to more frequency.
100% behind trolleys with big car plows in front.
I lived right off girard for 2 years (moved just recently), and I didnt realize we were supposed to have trolleys since they were on "bus service" or something. I rode my bike everywhere and it bugged me that I had to deal with the tracks, but couldnt have real trolleys. Anyways. I hope they put the trolleys back. Aside from around the bridge and the zoo, it'd be a good line to close for cars and run the trolleys more regularly.
I recently moved to up the country and I am here without a car! Its a 10KM bike ride into town.
I think Girard would really benefit from that. Doesn’t feel like a good space for driving anyway.
the Trolleys are being overhauled and as soon as enough of them are back for base service, service will return. that's from SEPTA planners themselves.
@@blue9multimediagroupI've seen a few 15s on Woodland Ave near the maintenance facility lately!
Philadelphia is underrated and as vast as they come. I would even say that it's superior to NYC's but only in variety.
Besides San Francisco, Philly is the best in the country. Glad SEPTA has kept their trolley/light rail network intact even when damn near every city in the US were tearing there's up
Looks like it would be easy to rebuild anyway.
Not really. Philly lost over half of its lines when NCL took over the predecessor PTC system. SEPTA inherited the NCL anti-rail mindset and eliminated more routes like the 23, 47, 56. The only reason the subway-surface lines were kept is that they physically can't be converted to bus operation, even using hybrids / tracklesses.
Their new management does seem to be a lot more rail-friendly though with plans to upgrade and possibly even modestly expand the trolley network, but it remains to be seen.
* P.S. "theirs" :)
In 2016 I flew into Philadelphia and needed to catch a bus to get home. I took the light rail line directly from the airport to the Greyhound station. There weren't even any transfers. The light rail stop was right across the road from the Greyhound station. The road was a serious obstacle and there was even a crosswalk connecting the two stations. I can't remember exactly how much the ticket cost but I do remember I thought it was quite reasonable.
You are talking about a commuter train line, not a trolley line or "light rail" line.
@garysmith394 Or "regional rail". Nonetheless, that connection into Center City Philadelphia is, IMHO, brilliance.
I haven't been on any of the trolleys in years but they're discussing putting a Subway under our Roosevelt blvrd or some kind of train system down the middle of Roosevelt Blvd and I'm so excited.
I'll be 129 by the time it's done but I'll wait.
A green track on Girard would bring me so much joy
Eyo Philly…the greatest transit city in the US no one has heard of.
We like it that way. Go visit NYC if you could please.
@@ihateregistrationbul go birds, asshole.
@@ihateregistrationbul Not true at all. For me, at least. I hate that nobody talks about our transit network.
It really is though I wouldn't say nobody has heard of it LOL
@@RMTransit that's true, but it always feels overshadowed by other networks, espcially If I try to look for SEPTA related stuff on youtube. It might just be that Philly is a less of a popular city, or a better discription would be it's horribly misunderstood (a shame, It's a super great city just infrastructure wise in general, not even related to public transit). I don't know, I could just reaching really far.
One thing I noticed is that there is no connection between the Subway/Surface and the Soring Garden lines, and the Media and Sharon Hill lines. Filling those gaps would make travel by tram/trolley a heck of a lot easier!
About 11:00, there are talks about expanding the 36 Trolley to the Eastwick station on the Airport line
I wish they would extend it all the way to the airport.
What happened to Route 15? The problem is suburban car centric anti transit counties blocking Philly transit funding in the corridors of Harrisburg. Toronto helped out Philadelphia in ,1976 I believe after a carbarn fire. We sent a load of surplus PCC cars down to help replace a number of destroyed trolley cars.
The PCC streetcars had to be refurbished or something
The depot at 49th and Woodland caught fire. I think 76 PCC cars were burned beyond repair. Toronto sent a number of former Kansas City streetcars to Philadelphia to make up for the lost cars. It was interesting to see the red and yellow TTC Kansas City cars in Phily along with Philadelphia's own former Green and Yellow Kansas City cars. In the long run, the Toronto Cars did not last as
long as they should have account of a lot of rust on the bottom due to so much
salt in the snow in the winter in Toronto.
@@gio160 Yeah, they couldn't pass inspection so they had to go to the shop.
Oct 23 1975 was the fire at Woodland.
60 cars burned, most of them all electric cars.
Toronto sent 30 cars to us. They were not of the best condition, but enough to get us by at the time.
And the colors were crimson and creme for TTC and green and creme for PTC and later SEPTA. There was never any yellow.
Just for clarity, SEPTA is indeed working with both San Francisco and especially Toronto on how to move forward with trolley modernization. They are for sure getting double-ended vehicles and the fleet will be rotated between the 3 different trolley divisions. Emphasis on 70% low-floor or better, meaning they are open to 100% LF vehicles. 4 or more doors per side. (This is all in the Trolley Car Procurement Documents). I cannot wait to see when it is all done.
As for more Private Right-of-Ways, it is almost impossible on the Subway-Surface Lines. Almost all lines run on narrow streets, especially the 11 and 13. The 10 is probably where we could get away with more PROWs, especially along 63rd Street. We could make the 36 right-of-way a green track tbh. SEPTA is eyeing extending it to Eastwick Station, something the line used to do but stop in the 1970s because of a redevelopment that never happened.
Man, why does most transit people have a hard on against trolley poles? Sure they are not perfect but they are easy to work on and give a lot of leeway with the wire where pantographs require a more staggered tightened wire which has to be exact above the track and such. Other than the rare occasion the pole comes off the wire which is rarer than it is made out as, its effective.
I'm a transit person who seems to like a lot of these things "transit people" hate :P When they're talking about modernizing I'm like "Aw, I like these cozy little trolleys with trolley poles" I realize it's not a strictly rational opinion, I just find most modern low floor LRVs charmless in the way modern cars are.
@@Rubycon99 no, as someone who worked with both, my personal opinion is that the pole method is solid
@@mattsmocs3281 I'm sure it is. I've heard people criticize trolleybuses for the poles coming off all the time, but I think it's happened to a bus I've been on maybe twice in my life and I used to ride a trolleybus to school every day.
limited speed and voltage
@@Rubycon99 I agree with you 100% and I don't think the trolley operators mind when they have to put the pole back on the wire when it comes off (rarely). It is part of the charm of driving a trolley car.
Other steps:
1. Transition to a zone-based fare system, eliminate transfer penalties
2. Start using the regularly-maintained tracks in North Philadelphia and don't cut every urban route the first excuse you get
Most of your suggestions seem okay except the part where we're not supposed to cut Urban routes
I will point out that the old zone-based fare was used on SEPTA until 2013 and was eliminated as it PENALIZED LOW INCOME RIDERS (those that use SEPTA the most). And remind you that low income is not just limited to Philadelphia proper, but can be found in the City of Chester in Delaware County. The fare structure we have now ($2.00 base fare upon boarding, first transfer free, with subsequent transfers being $1.00 with SEPTA Key linked with SEPTA Wallet) is suffice. What SEPTA needs to do is overhaul the Regional Rail System within the city limits to operate in the same manner as the El, Broad Street Subway, Subway-Surface Trolleys, and City Division bus routes and be under the same fare structure; those leaving the city for the suburbs utilizing the proper fare zone structure that is in place now.
@@rwboa22 While higher fares hurt low income riders more, a transfer penalty hurts just as much for long trips where you will probably transfer more - do you transfer to the subway and then transfer again and pay the penalty, or do you stay on the slow bus?
Either way, you're right that I missed regional rail integration in my list
@@timothytao898 You take Regional Rail from the burbs OR a bus or trolley to either the El or the Subway if you're in the city, and that's it. It's EXTREMELY rare that your trip uses more than that in Philly. We're still a very centralized city, and 15th Street has a ton of underground walking routes plus lots of pedestrian space to access the entirety of our business district easily, while 30th Street is basically right on two college campuses, so walking is heavily favored and designed for.
@@ErdTirdMans If that's true, I don't see the point of a transfer charge then. Just do the flat fee of $2
As resident of Collingdale (which borders Sharon Hill and Darby Borough), the main route that you just mention for the Route 102 to run through Sharon Hill and Darby (US Route 13) can for starters, get very backed up during rush hour, plus it has to deal with the flood-prone Darby Creek. SEPTA does have adequate connections for the Route 102 at MacDade Blvd. (Bus Route 113 from 69th Street to Northtowne Plaza in Claymont, Delaware) and the existing terminus at US Route 13/Chester Pike (Bus Route 114 from Darby to Penn State Brandywine, via Chester, and Bus Route 115 from Delaware County Community College near Newtown Square to the Philadelphia International Airport).
Now if you want expansion, SEPTA needs to reinstate regular service on the little-used "Darby Extension" on the Route 13 from Yeadon Loop to Darby Loop. The right-of-way for the Route 13 track through Darby Loop is still intact and with restoration of service, the Route 13 can provide proper coverage on an underserved section of Darby and Yeadon Boroughs that currently requires taking the Route 11 into Southwest Philadelphia, then back-tracking on Bus Route 108 to 69th Street; restoration of regular Route 13 service to/from Darby Loop would eliminate that.
Wheelchair ramps should definitely be included, as upgrading such a large system to level access could potentially take a lot longer than fleet procurement. Melbourne's low floor trams only have emergency ramps which can't be used in regular service, which means wheelchair users are very limited in where they can go, as only a quarter of stops have been upgraded to level access so far and many are not even served by low floor trams.
I've asked a SEPTA official about the situation with level boarding on the new vehicles, and according to them, the trolleys will indeed have ramps for near-level low floor boarding, however they will only deploy when needed as they add a not insignificant amount of dwell time. Not the ideal choice, but they seemed dead-set on it, especially since they've already released the RFP (Request for Proposals) document describing their preferred vehicle design. I think the reason for the near-level boarding has something do with the fact that they also want to run protected bike lanes along some of the relatively narrow trolley streets. Also daylighting issues at street corners. There's a lot of construction constraints for them to work around.
You never going to get every tram stop level. The city would grind to a halt having stops come out into the road every 300 metres.
@@xr6lad Um, having platforms for trolleys in mixed traffic (near-level, level, or whatever) is not much different than daylighting an intersection. It doesn't "jut" out into the road, it just comes up to the side of the travel/trolley lane every few blocks. The only harm done is the loss of a few spots of parking (and that's hardly any harm). Plenty of cities do it all around the world, and SEPTA's actually already done it on Richmond St in Port Richmond.
@@spacepeanut yeah but SW Philly is way not dense than anything you've mentioned
Can you do another one on Septa Broad Street Line and the Norristown High Speed Line and the market-frankford line because those lines some some help
You really need to look at the eastern german and polish tram networks. They are very tight and well connected!
Suggestion: Athens. Great city with trams, trains and buses!
Madrid, Elizabeth Line & now Philly. You are on fire!
"We drive to the corner store, that's what we do" -Darrell Clarke, Philadelphia City Council President.
That is the reason we have the issues with the parking.
Cars double-parking on the trolley tracks are the only way to get a trolley to show up in Philadelphia.
Works every time! 🤣
Especially the 11.
As someone who lived in Philly (or right outside of Philly, in a suburb but with great access to the regional rail system, which is not that common all across America but not that uncommon in Philly), and have lived on the East coast since, I feel like I have to bring up this topic. That I feel that one of the biggest issue that holds back Philly's transit is the 'classic city problems' that Philly as a city is failing to address, particularly crime, homelessness and urban poverty. The thing is, as you may find in some comments, people claims that 'they don't find those useful as it doesn't seem to take them anywhere they want to go.' And the truth is, many of the services, particularly the BSL (the new 'B' line, particularly the 4-track part which you mentioned in another video that you feel it's a pity that it's not fully utilized, and yes it is a pity but I don't see that many ppl wanting to go to or live near North Philly, aka 'Philadelphia badlands', any time soon, and additional frequencies on that section probably won't be used that much, the trains now are already very empty), and the 'subway surface trolleys' (the new 'T' line) goes through areas that are kind of notorious for being... Basically places that ppl don't wanna go to. And a section of the L line (or the 'El', for elevated) goes through the now internationally notorious Kensington Avenue (so notorious that the CCP propaganda uses those footages to discredit America)... Just search 'Kensington Avenue Philly' hopefully you'll understand... And I feel that has a real impact on the future of the transit. Including but not limited to prompting more NIMBYs to block more improvements & expansions, and eventually straining SEPTA financially even more which is already a SERIOUS problem for SEPTA. And that's not just a Philly problem. It seems that the stereotype of transit & run-down hoods is strong around America and is probably even getting worse recently. I don't see you covering that topic that much but I don't really blame you Reece, as I have to admit that from my experience, Canadian counterparts have them WAY better than us. I've been to Toronto & Montreal, sites of exciting transit expansions, and I feel like at least I never worry about a shooting. (We just had one on the B subway on SEPTA! I got to admit I never even imagined that, as I always felt safer on the trains than on the streets when they go through the rough neighborhoods like some of those along the north broad street). And frankly I think for some reasons there's less of a drug problem in those 2 cities than most American counterparts as well??? But if you look around transit proponents & transit fans' videos who travels and takes transit around America you probably will hear that comment a lot more often. I've already heard that thankfully, some transit youtubers brough it up on Portland, Dallas, Seattle, etc.
The Route 15 trolley line is undergoing a complete renovation and is supposedly reopening September 2023. They are currently restoring and retrofitting the old 1947 era trolleys (18 in total) which will be used on Route 15. The trolleys will be the original colors, green and creamy yellow.
I can't wait to see them in service and ride them again.
Awesome the,, Philadelphia Trolley ''👌💯
The PCC Cars are so beautiful 😍❗
Interesting. Good work.
I've been riding streetcars in Toronto since 1967 (my year of birth). I think the priority should be rights-of-way everywhere they can. Queen, King and Dundas are slow as molasses in February most of the time. And I say that as a life-long streetcar geek (Ray Nielsen Videos, Transit Toronto Supporter, Halton Museum etc). Side note: Man, I miss seeing all the old abandoned PCCs and trolley buses at Wychwood Car House--that was such an atmospheric sight in the early 90s.
I get around via trolley most of the time and have lived here for almost a decade. The streets are very narrow in some parts of West Philly which prevents a lot of modernization. This city was built for horses and never really moved past them. The 36 might be able to get away with it for a few miles around Bartram's Gardens, but the 11 and 13 would be almost impossible through many residential stretches on Woodland and Chester Aves. All three lines also divert to 40th & Market when the tunnel's closed primarily via a very narrow Chestnut St One Way, but they get their own dedicated lane on 38th before passing Presbyterian Hospital on another very narrow street to 40th & Market. They currently divert on Monday nights and whenever something breaks down in the tunnel. The trolleys are 24hrs and they're just conveniently inconvenient.
I live in Philly. My trolley is the #34 - City Hall to Baltimore Ave. At 0:30 we see the 40th Street Trolley Portal - two blocks from my house!
In Marseille France, when they upgraded the last tram in the city to the new standard, they didn't even bother to see if new rolling stock and old stops or vice versa would be compatible, they simply closed the line for years, until the works were done. (also, the Noaiiles tunnel needed to be turned into a one way tunnel because the newer trams are wider than the older ones and because of the pantograph)
Also I hope you'll have some time to spare in Paris, Metro line 12 just opened two new stations today !
There are several videos about the RATP and RER in Paris and the outlying area. Interesting!
I am not getting out to Paris on this trip but I am going to do some videos so stay tuned
Pennsylvania trolley gauge is a funny one since it's actually two gauges - with 7 mm difference.
That's interesting. Finnish broad gauge and Russian broad gauge are only 4mm different, but they are considered separate gauges. They are compatible though
no it's one.
5 ft 2.5 in
I have seen temporary switchover in the streetcar system in Pittsburgh. I saw them use on the old PCC streetcars in the 1970s and 1980s, and with the modern LRV. I saw those crossovers on streets more the on the line's Right of way.
damn i am just honestly in awe that those things are still running. thats pretty impressive just itself
They break down in the tunnel and untether themselves almost daily at this point 🤷🏼♂️
70% low floor looks like it is necessary to work in the very tight turn radii in SEPTA with their pivoting bogies.
Appreciate the brief San Diego representation
You mention having Philly's trolleys meeting up with subways or regional rail trains as an improvement. Ironically, when I lived in the suburbs in the '90s, I was able to do that at one of the few places (if not the only one) where that was already possible. At the Clifton-Aldan station, I could go into center city on the 102 trolley and the Market-Frankford line and come back out on the Media-Elwyn regional train, or vice-versa. The stations are a short walk from each other.
Any new vehicles should have middle doors on both sides for eventual cross-platform transfer redesign at 30th and/or 15th streets. Also, PCCs are gorgeous and new vehicles should take cosmetic cues from them as much as possible.
what cross platform interchange?
the MFL is high level heavy rail. never happen.
@@blue9multimediagroup With ramps. It could certainly be done at 30th, in principle; 15th might be too much.
I see in your videos a lot of, let's say... "negativity" towards stuff like Mixed rolling stock, Single directional vehicles and Rail loops.
And that's something I would really love to see your full take at.
One of the big reasons beeing that, I come from city that basically violates all your holy trinity (stated above). We have 9 different tram types running on our lines from 3 manufacturers (if I'm correct). And 6 out of the 9 tram models are single directional. And that's not just the thing over here, basically all the the systems in my country also work in similar way.
And since I've been growing up in this kind of environment, I do see these things work really well around here.
For example...
Loops - Can allow for more vehicles to fit in terminus station and can let driver to have some rest in between the rides and if the loop has more then 1 track (which over here is the case most of the times), the "free" track can be also used to keep some vehicles there (if you can't use the depot right in the moment for some reason).
Our single-directional vehicles can have more seats (Outside of the designated areas for stroller or wheelchair), using the left side of the vehicle that doesn't need to have any doors, giving the similar seat count to the buses.
Then the issue of turning around if the line cannot reach the loop on the branch it uses, many cities that already use systems like this (at least over here) do have plenty of spaces for the vehicles to terminate earlier. For example my city with just 3 lines have if I counted correctly 12 possible places for the single-directional vehicles to turn around (excluding the depot). I know this may very from city to city though.
And when it comes to mixed rolling stock, this may also be different issue depending on when your system is. I know that the stuff like parts and maintenance can very (And for us it may help that all the manufacturing companies making our trams are local). But at least around here, the mixed rolling stock can be a good thing. We can use different vehicles on each line depending on current demand (weekend/workday service, ect.), bi-directional vehicles can be assigned on the line if needed while single-directional vehicles can serve other lines, we can modernise our rolling stock gradually without needing to make large investments to replace our eintire tram park every 20 or so years, etc.
Anyways, as those are just my POVs living in country that does the 3 great sins basically on every network it has. And again, I would be interested to see your takes on these things in detail. (If you already have them somewhere and I just missed them, I'd be glad to be directed there, thanks).
here from geoff! great discovery of a channel as an immediate subscriber! :D
Finally a streetcar network I’ve actually ridden
I enjoyed your video; however, as a resident of a Philadelphia suburb I lack your faith in the ability of SEPTA to make significant improvements. I can still remember trolleys running along north-south routes east of City Hall. I also watched as they paved over tracks in North Philadelphia. I would be thrilled to see significant improvements to the system, but I am not holding my breath.
While I agree putting your faith in septa is risky, there’s been a lot of momentum with the Septa Forward movement which includes the bus network redesign (4 year project that releases this year) and the trolley car and station redesign (You can find the presentations for these in the Septa News UA-cam channel)
Go birds!
Lolol
Lil secret our trolleys are bi-directional but it is only put into use in emergencies or if the trolley can’t get pass due to car accidents or police activity
Takes forever to back out of the tunnel.
Nice Lego train in the back.
Growing up in the Northeast I remember maneuvering down Torresdale Ave with the tracks and cobblestone. Sadly they removed that in favor of new Trackless Trolleys there and on Frankford Ave, formally known as Lincoln Highway in the 1700s.
Biggest problem they have it getting a new trolley to fit in the underground. Looking at 5-7 years for them to even build new ones then years to convert the overhead. Lot of the old lines have outdated substations that are millions to update. They also want to relocate Elmwood yard, So even if the plans went into action now you won't see anything in the next 10 years.
For the trolley extensions to stations; I agree with the extension of 10 to Overbrook, but I think it would be cheaper to just add a new Regional Rail Station at 80th and Eastwick since the rail line is right by the tram terminal.. Some might argue this wouldn't make sense for close stop spacing, but SEPTA already runs EMUs and the Airport. Line doesn't have that many stations.
For the 102, I think it would be good to extend it to Sharon Hill Regional rail station, and then have the 11 and 13 extended from Darby TC to Sharon Hill regional rail stations; thuis helping to bind the system together.
Thoughts on the old Chestnut Hill lines? Most of the track is still there in the road along with caternary poles. Would be a great spot for bringing trams back or a trolleybus!
Unlikely until SEPTA gets new trolley vehicles, and it's even more unlikely they'll order enough of the new vehicles to operate the line. They can't put the Kawasaki LRVs on the line because that would be replacing ADA compliant buses with non-compliant trolleys. It *might* be possible to take the ADA compliant (but barely) PCC IIs from Route 15 and put them on Route 23 while Route 15 gets the new LRVs, but that's unlikely (and there are very, very few working PCC IIs to go around).
In terms of trolley buses, SEPTA probably doesn't have enough to go around right now. We'll see what happens after their "Zero Emissions Bus Playbook" is put into effect. Thankfully, it seems they intend to keep their current trolley bus routes, but it's unlikely they'll expand the system. No idea when new trolleybus vehicles are due.
@@spacepeanut I think the E40LFRs they have now are the last trolleybuses they'll purchase.
They may follow MBTA's footsteps and scrap the idea of trolleybuses altogether for EVs... but Philly is PHILLY. They do things their own way
I used to live outside Philly, but never took the trolley and never took the subway. Did take the train on the mainline. I do remember that there was once track going out West Chester Pike to at least Newtown Square. I think it once ran to West Chester.
I lived in Boston and loved the trolleys. I lived in NYC and loved the subway. I hope Philly can get it together as they are very fortunate to still have so much track.
With the exception of the 15, it would be nice to have trolly cars that handicapped people could use. @RTTransit the 15 is back to the old trolly cars.
Standard U.S. railroad gauge is 4' 8 1/2". The problem in the 1800s was that during snow or in general private horse drawn wagons liked to make use of the rails to ease their passage. Knowing this in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania "Broad Gauge" of 5' 2" was devised. It worked.
Well done
Great analysis! Love your knowledge & comments. Have you visited any of the New Jersey light rail lines?
Philly is wonderful and underrated, but I'm skeptical that the political will exists to see this to completion. They paved over the 11th st trolley tracks rather than reintroduce service
Take a look at Girard Avenue on streetview. Philly is 90% of the way to getting dedicated ROW, we already built the boarding platforms, why not just block off the middle lanes!
Related, the local councilmember, Council President Darrell Clarke, actually *downzoned* a lot of the land along Girard Avenue, one of the fastest growing parts of the city and one with enormous transit potential
Great video; you really hit the nail on the head. Only thing to keep in mind is that SEPTA has a lot more technical constraints on their system than Toronto. Some of the busiest stations only have 80' platforms, and some stations do not have high enough clearances for high level boarding. Additionally, SEPTA wants to run protected bike lanes along with trolley modernization to replace the currently extremely unsafe painted ones. This makes high platforms next to impossible to construct. Furthermore, high platforms would pose daylighting issues if installed at street corners, and would thus have to be installed, with ramps, mid-block, this decreasing the quality of transfers and irritating neighbors. High platforms unfortunately simply aren't feasible on the current system.
and you just said why the 15 and 23 will probably stay busses.
Level boarding only needs a platform a little over a foot tall? Not a high platform.
@@ihateregistrationbul the 15 is a part of the modernization project.
The trolleys won't use high platforms. They will also more than likely be one car articulated units as well. So street-side platforms won't be the issue, it's more NIMBYs and people that don't want to lose parking spots, parking is a premium in Philly with a lot of restraints (watch Parking Wars on A&E, the PPA doesn't play about parking or their $$$)
@@phillyzfynest7 I live in Philly. I know the parking issues here. What SEPTA is doing by combining the stop frequency reduction and (low-floor) level boarding platforms is that they are simultaneously increasing the street parking supply so as to not piss off the NIMBYs, in essence killing two birds with one stone with the reduced stop frequency. Due to the combination of the 80' long platforms in the tunnels and the tight turning radiuses on the streets, the trolleys will probably be 2-3 section articulated units.
Edmonton, Alberta scrapped its streetcars in 1951, but the volunteer-run Edmonton Radial Railway Society restores and operates historic streetcars between two key pedestrian nodes: Whyte Ave and Jasper Ave, via the historic High Level Bridge (they also operate at Fort Edmonton Park). If you haven't been on the High Level Bridge line yet, I highly encourage you to check it out this summer! I volunteer with them, so I'd be happy to show you around the museum and streetcar barn. I could also ask about showing you around the Fort Ed streetcar barn, where the restoration and heavy maintenance takes place.
I that high level bridge area is good real estate to build an intercity train station. Connects close to downtown and the Legislature, on top of Government Centre station for the LRT network, though they might need to replace the bridge to do so. Mainline tracks goes down south to Calgary
I would love to someday hear your thoughts on the MBTA green line / possibly also Ashmont / Mattapan line !
You have a good point philly’s trolleys they are like from the 1990s and it’s kinda odd how septa does not really change the trolleys
Early 1980s besides the 15, 101, and 102.
Nice.
Great video. Like the others said - can you do one on the MBTA? They need some help!