Ha! Im famous now. I figured you would edit the video after we had established the difference between the double lean back, and the 2.0 on patreon. This is gonna be controversial af.
@@slicksouthpaw489 no. I work for a beer distribution company. It's my beer name. It is a German, and dutch beer combined along with a last name that is specifically designed to make me sound like a complete pervert.
You’re correct. He’s critiquing based on the worst examples of form found in some of their videos, not the actual lift as taught and performed by the novice lifters Rippetoe targets.
I'd like to point out that the style of pressing taught by starting strength is not the exaggerated leaned back version you see in competitions, from the SS book: "Our version of the press is adapted from the Olympic press, preserving the full-body aspects of the lift but eliminating the excessive layback." And part of the press chapter tackles the mistake of pushing yourself away from the bar: "This problem usually occurs due to a loss of control over the lower back position, when the start deteriorates into a lumbar overextension instead of being a hip movement. Since extreme loaded hyperextension of the lumbar spine is dangerous, it’s best to never lose control of the back at all".
@@anti_hero_660 it may be so but that's not what they teach to clients. Essentially, it's just a hip forward reach to get the head out of the way of the bar.
CW: homophobia Yeah i went to a SS session in the UK - the guy taught: "Hips foward like your fucking a girl - Oh no its a guy! Hips back! - now press!"
The rippetoe 2.0 works for me. Locking my hips by bracing the glutes makes my lower back feel very secure. I don't lean back much though, just enough for my chin to clear the bar as I had understood that going too horizontal meant drifting the lift into bench territory. Zero back issues with this form.
@@siddislikesgoogle Wow that is heavy, btw do you face any plateaus on the ohp? If so would appreciate some advice! Im currently pressing 150lbs for 3x5 I know its not much tho…
@@mrisaac8510 thanks, if you're heading into the end zone of your novice LP, you'll find yourself reducing the reps and sets as you approach the first peak e.g. 5x3, 3x3, 3x2, 2x3, 1x5, 1x3 etc. I think you also add 5lbs to the bar every 2 and then every 3 w/outs. Basically the progress curve flattens. You have to milk it as much as you can. You can get a clearer picture of OHP specific recommendations in Rippetoes second book (programming for strength I think it's called). Eat, sleep, improve form and a fighting attitude help a lot lol (and patience of course). Good luck.
Yes, Alex is taking Chase's bend and thinking that SS encourages that kind of back bend from the start, instead of just pushing your hips forward and back 2-6 inches until the bar clears the top of your head and snapping back to a start position.
Chase’s 405 press is actually an example of the “press 3.0” aka a “double layback”, NOT a press 2.0. There’s a great article about the differences and history on the starting strength website by Carl Raghavan. The press 2.0 does not have the 2nd layback that allows you to extend and get under the bar without actually raising it. The press 2.0 therefore is still appropriate for novices and folks wanting to improve their overhead strength without the added fatigue you get with a heavier push press.
I think it's worth mentioning that Chase Lindley admitted that his 405lbs press should have been disallowed under Strengthlifting rules. Specifically because of the downward motion of the bar as he leaned back.
@@Yeomannn chase mentioned that he didn’t intend to lean back so much. I’ve seen him train and he’s pressed lighter weights without the exaggerated layback.
Remember, Rip says that a trap bar deadlift is inherently dangerous because it is not stable in the sagittal plane. Imagine how dangerous it would be if a barbell could move in the sagittal plane during an overhead press!
I think he just hates the trap bar. I get why, its a waste of time exercise IMO (trap bar DL) and you can get more from better movements (deadlift or squat) and I think it caught on in commercial gyms and its just a thing now.
@@oggsmash9989 Personally I think the trap bar is great for anyone not competing in powerlifting. However, I don't care if others disagree. I only mentioned it because Rip repeatedly states that a trap bar is dangerous due to instability in the sagittal plane. Only a dogmatic buffoon could make that claim while simultaneously endorsing the OHP.
@@republicjim120 We can agree to disagree about it being great. It becomes a different exercise than the conventional deadlift due to lifting angle. No need to compete in powerlifting to be able to learn to do a proper deadlift and benefit from a superior exercise. I get why people do a trap bar deadlift, its easier to do and to learn. I generally am not lifting for an easy way to do things though.
@@republicjim120 Also, agreeing to disagree about that trap bar aside I like the lifting in a barn aesthetic and am enjoying your channel. One word of advice...Do not back into a squat rack, always back out and walk forward in. Seems like a small deal but with fatigue re racking backing in can become a problem.
Here is the Starting Strength logic on why they don't push press: startingstrength.com/training/why-we-dont-push-press They say that the "hip movement" they do in the press is self-limiting while leg drive is not. Really? I think it would be pretty obvious if one day a lifter used a slight leg drive and the next day he went into a full squat and essentially performed a thruster. Besides, when you're dealing with novice lifters, the group that Starting Strength is geared towards, it may take them a few workouts to settle into the right technique. Improvements in ALL of the lifts for a novice are going to be based, in part, on small changes in technique from workout to workout. They're just making up reasons to fit their dogmatic narrative.
Let me clarify my point and perhaps make it shorter. If you're going to strict press then STRICT press. I have no problem with strict pressing and do it myself. But the Olympic press aka Starting Strength Press 2.0 is NOT a strict press. It's somewhere between a strict press and a push press. If the goal of doing a strict press is to develop shoulder strength in the bottom position of the press, then the lean back of the Press 2.0 eliminates that portion just as in the push press. Perhaps the Press 2.0 does this to a lesser degree, but if I'm going to do something other than a STRICT press I'd rather push press and save my bad back from that leaning back nonsense.
I would rather do push press then lean like that. Def have seen the old videos, but i would imagine that i would hurt myself doing that. I do have just a slight lean to get my head out of the way and if I am stepping back from the rack and planting my feet I *may* get a little bounce/compression.
I did strongman for 10 years and used a similiar arching back technique in log and axle press....I'm 47 now and feel every one of those attempts in my lower back...I highly discourage it. Also, if memory serves, wasn't lower back injury one of the reasons it was pulled from the Olympics?
These days, this is the just about the only strength channel I still watch. There has only been one video I did not care for and that was the one with the bodybuilders... I occasionally watch Thrall and Alrsruhe too, and Lobster Strength -- I mean Starting Strength. Bromley is the only channel pumping out non-stop solid information, no nonsense, no frills, no BS, no stupid marketing, no snake-oil, and only real weights.
My two cents: if you are aiming to develop and test pure strength, keep it strict! If you want big weights, Jerk, bent press, or “natural” press. I have practiced the Layback Press and frankly, was not good enough at staying balanced while getting underneath the bar to gain any real advantage. I also think the push press is great, and you can overload it with an “active negative” or slower eccentric to develop stronger pressing muscles.
This is a great video on exercise selection! But you should change the title of the video to The Starting Strength "Press 3.0": Is It Better Than Strict? as this video covers press 3.0 rather than 2.0. Press 2.0 is not what Chase Lindley, Carl Raghavan, or Serge Redding use(d). That would be what the Starting Strength coaches call Press 3.0 (or the Olympic Press). The press 2.0 is, as you showed at 5:05, used to create a relatively small amount of spring from pushing your hips forward and standing up quickly. Apart from the quick hip thrust forward, this is very similar to a 'strict' overhead press. It's analogous to leg drive in the bench press. However, the Press 3.0 involves a layback _as_ the barbell leaves the chest to straighten the arms out as opposed to the press 2.0 where the hip thrust _forward_ happens right before the barbell is pressed. I feel this is analogous to a super-arch in the bench. The Press 3.0 is a misnomer in that it appears as a continuation of the press 2.0 when in reality, you can do a layback with or without a hip thrust (since you can use leg drive AND/OR super arch on the bench press). Chase Lindley is a good example of someone who does both a hip thrust _and_ a layback.
@@AlexanderBromley Haha nah, this is a solid video. It's just a minor semantic error. With the number of pressing styles discussed by the starting strength coaches, there's bound to be some confusion
I'm sorry but you do the starting strength press wrong, I can't take any of this video seriously. It's not about 'leaning back and locking out'. You are supposed to sink the hips forward to build tension across the anterior chain, then snap the barbell up WHILE you stack your torso under it; never ceasing to shrug the bar up. Contracting the traps like this to un-impinge all the tissue in the shoulder joint
Another good video from Bromley. I am doing master’s SS and have been going back and forth on whether to do a Strict Press or Press 2.0 or pause at the top and bounce at the bottom. I have to say that the bottom bounce seems to be an easier cheat to standardize on than the hip thrust - in my case a bit of knee bend kept creeping into the hip thrust. I recently tried to go to strict + bottom bounce, trying to make that stick. But perhaps a mistake is that I have tried to keep my bar weight where it was and really struggling with the plateau caused by the fact that the strict press (even with bottom bounce) is tougher to move than a Press 2.0. I also agree with the other comments SS doesn’t really teach the lean back. Their version is that you go arch forward and immediately come back to a vertical position. With the lean back you either dont’ bring your back up towards vertical, or else you do come up and then immediately drop back down into the lean. Anyway, really topical for what I am doing right now.
This is an excellent topic. I will never succumb to “powerlifting” or what powerlifting has become. Low bar wide stance squats, arches that look like double rainbows, but I don’t really care about sumo vs conventional deadlifts. The sport is kind of gross to me. Powerlifting builds a great core of strength. But overloading the body in these weird ass positions. It’s just annoying. I agree with Bromley 100%. I don’t give a shit if I ever squat 500 lbs because I only squat high bar and ATG. I don’t pause my 1RM but if I’m doing a single under 95% I’ll pause it. And my numbers are shit. Because I don’t give a fuck about how much weight is on my back. I care about what I feel afterwards. I like the feeling of working. I like to feel like I’ve done something today. I like that more than “I benched 350 lbs 5 times moving the bar 1.5 inches”. I’m going to start moving towards strongman. That shit is way more fun than powerlifting.
@@legrandfromage9682 😂😂 yeah, looking back at this comment, you’re right. The point I was trying to make is that I’m sick of the leverage game. It’s more about what awkward positions you can “wedge” yourself into than the “genuine” strength someone has. And that’s hard to measure in PL. whereas strongman and Olympic lifting there is no arching a bench or sumo deadlifts. You move that weight with sheer strength. I’m glad PL changed the rules on bench. It helped these ridiculously mobile freaks not take world records from those that actually have to move the bar because they can’t transform into a rainbow.
Echoing a few others, the 2.0 action is at the hips. From belt line to shoulders there is very little, if any, arch. Done the way I’ve learned it, it isn’t more dangerous than any other lift I do. Whether it builds strength as well as a strict press, I don’t have enough experience to argue about.
It does. This version of the press still take a huge amount upper body strength to finish the lift and not even just lockout strength. I still do Strict press as an accessory
This 2.0 version is very much like standing inclined bench press. I personally don't like it. Push press is way way better option than this weird press 2.0 as it is more realistic in real life situations, looks more elegant than weird press 2.0, and is definitely simpler in terms of technical & safety aspects and timing of the double dips under barbell.
This version of press has taken the actual press, more or less, to the same point where Olympic weightlifting dropped it from competitions in 1972. I believe that Olympic community should have revised the pressing rules to avoid such movement tweaks rather than dropping the elegant clean & press. However, clean & press, despite being dropped, retains its individual components in remaining two official lifts...I mean clean portion is still covered in snatches and C&J, and overhead press part is covered in C&J so not too much was lost from Olympic weightlifting.
The press is not at all present in modern olympic weightlifting, the modern jerk has barely anything to do with pressing, in fact If you press any part of it, you’re doing it wrong.
I didn't watch the video yet and my opinion may be unpopular but I think the barbell press is a terrible exercise. It is a good display of strength but terrible for progression and gains and doesn't hit the side delt at all really. Behind Neck Press is far better as you are not moving your spine around just make sure to keep your shoulder joints elevated or they will impinge, and use a 10-20 rep range and don't push to true failure and you will be fine for 99% of people. These days I just do one armed dumbells however and I seem able to get the most weight and hit the shoulders the best. I lean slightly to one side and slightly back to open up the joint more and this seems to really be easy on the shoulders.
I know too many people who have built delts that get compliments from bodybuilders from mainly prioritizing strict barbell presses. It's not the end all be all if aesthetics and symmetry are your goal, but if you struggled to progress I would argue there was something lacking in your approach. That being said, I love behind the neck work and often prescribe it as a way to keep development well rounded.
@UCyg6SRF-lQhfGpKpmPIP0aA I don't disagree that the body English can be a bit much at time. I will say that for beginners it doesn't matter all that much. It's easy to learn and causes adequate stimulus for that demo graphic. A pendlay rows much easier to teach than a bent Row in my opinion.
What he showed was not Rip’s press variation. Everything he said was true, but the kind of press described in the video is more like the first half of a classic Olympic press. Rip’s press “2.0” does not utilise *lean back* exactly; you just embrace your core/glutes/quads with a straight leg and push your hips forward until your chin is not blocking the bar path. The tension created in your entire body acts like a spring, making the initial part of the light more explosive. Then the press is locked out with a neutral spine (maybe slightly extended if your thoracic extenders are week).
Good analysis! I personally can't fathom why Rippetoe teaches the press this way. SS is marketed as the way to get everyone strong, from a 22 year string bean to his 50 year old mother. Do we want everyone pressing in this comp specific fashion given the obviously increased risk of injury?
Doing a back bend until you’re horizontal and locking out your arms to catch the weight then trying to use your abs to stand up after could neverrrrrr cause someone to lose balance and fall or hurt someone’s spine with sheering force.
The reasoning is to "use the most muscle mass, over the longest effective range of motion, to lift the most weight". As Bromley shows the 2.0 uses more muscle mass by bringing in the chest and this means you can use more weight.
He doesn't teach the press this way. He teaches it with a hip thrust, not a lean back. This is just what Chase Lindley does, it doesn't mean it's part of Starting Strength.
Not a rip(heh) on you, but why is it always the people who didn't read the book talking about SS outside of their channel. People look at the main SS exercises, and then look at yt videos, instead of reading the book. What Alexander is talking about in this video, and the videos he has shown, are not press 2.0, it's not what SS teaches, at all, if anything, it's what SS tells us not to do.
As soon as the question said "the weight is limited to the front delt and the other muscles barely benefit." My first response was: Isn't that the point? And wouldn't the push press solve this issue anyway?
Let me answer this one: no, no it isn't. It's a technique developed to allow for maximum weight to be lifted within the limits of the competition rules. It's exactly the same thing as the high arch 3 inch bench presses. Ironically, these new strengthlifting competitions differed from powerlifting by using the press instead of the bench press precisely because of this bullshit being so widespread on the bench.
Interesting video. Personally I fucking hate the Press 2.0 and I don't give a fuck how much Chase presses that shit will always be disgusting. It's normalizing the exact reasons the Press was banned from Olympic lifting in the first place. Like, you can be strong at the Press without using form like that. Some movements like the bench press and squat are bastardiz- I'm sorry, "optimized" to allow you to lift more weight. I don't think the Press should be as well. Do it strict, do it "right" and get strong that way. If numbers is all they care about then replace the Press with the Push Press. The Press 2.0 is basically the "hyper arch, mega wide grip, 4" ROM" bench press except it's a shoulder press instead. I know my opinion means jackshit overall but that's just how I feel.
Lol I don't disagree with you. Given that strongman is the wild west with the 'any way any how' approach, I do have to bite my tongue. The fact that it at least has a specific technique that requires some skill and timing to master makes me hate it less than powerlifting nonsense. With a 'sumo bench', all you need are short arms and a long, bendy torso to reduce the feat to a 5 board press. But I hear you. It violates the spirit of what a strict press is. It's also a convoluted attempt to reproduce what push presses already do.... and it seems to do it worse. When I imagine who walks in the gym to practice this, I see pretentious strength hipsters and that's what enrages me.
@@AlexanderBromley couldn't agree more. If it's just about moving the weight, the push press does it better, and carries over to athletic endeavours more. So why do this silly shit? 🤔
I’ve though this exact thing the last two years. My program has OHP as a main lift. My thoughts are similar to one of the points you made. If your goal is to get stronger, then why would someone utilize the stretch reflex of the hips and abs to move the weight. And if you were going to create an mechanical advantage to move more weight. The why not just use the push press for its advantages. Great video!
The stretch reflex and tightening of my abs helps my press a lot. Push presses up and strict press back down “the negative” have helped my strict press go up as well. I love Coach Rip but guys who do this for a living at that level tend to get rigid on their methodology at times.
I think if you are not laying back excessively, the hip move is more akin to a slight back arch and pinching your shoulders back in a bench press...its not so much a "cheat" to do tons more weight at an optimization to get more load throughout. I also think if you stop at the top and go down and right back up, the hip move/layback is minimized to just enough to get the chin out of the way and its how I prefer to do it.
I posted a form check on starting strength reddit for my strict presss and got a ton of crap. I was trying their 2.0 and it's just weird. I'm so happy I found Bromley on here for a voice of reason.
Thank you for making this , and talking about how all of these presses came from rule incentives. Push press sounds good to try, strict always seemed beat me up .
Lifters should have a wall behind when strict pressing wich invalidates the lift if touched. Easy solution. Much easier than the 0 ROM bench press problem we see in powerlifting.
Lol I always lean back a bit when I OHP. Feels more natural that way, cant get nowhere near to my chest without elbows getting behind the bar and the weight falling forward without a lean. Sure, there probably is no need to touch the chest but I like the fact that there is a clear bottom for the range of motion. Some have told me that my lower back will be f'd by doing that but honestly it feels great when properly braced.
IMO this is one of the dumbest things to come out of the SS community. And I say that as a fan of SS - I learned a ton from SS at the beginning of my weightlifting journey. I believe they had it right with how they originally taught the press. As strict as possible, lean back just enough to clear the head out of the bar path and then immediately back under the bar. For their special strength lifting competition format (and for the athletes that are interested in training a special technique for that) this is fine, but for the vast majority of the audience they claim to serve, who are mostly just interested in learning to use barbells to develop overall general physical strength, this 2.0 version puts too much strain on the lower back, invites knee bend, and turns the lift from one that primarily strengthens the shoulders (the entire shoulder musculature) into a lift that uses the chest and front shoulders to lift the bar. We already have the bench press for that.
Hi the full lay back press isn't the Starting Strength 2.0 Press it's more like 2.5 or 3.0 even. The SS 2.0 Press is very close to the Strict Press there's just a little bit of movement which aids the bar path.
The book states you shouldn’t be doing a big lay back. The lay back in the way it’s taught is very minimal. I have never taught anyone to do a layback. And if I were to do it, it would kill my back. And my clients that do it instinctively just do it. It’s a movement you either can or can not do. And out of every client I have ever taught that does an aggressive layback there has never been one injury from it. I know everyone uses chase as an example. But I watched him train for years and watched his 405. He has always done aggressive layback. And since his abs are really strong he’s never had any issues.
You should write a book Bromley, something for ignorant but interested folk like me. History of the lifts, explanation of the history of different strength sports and where they are today, etc. If something like this already exists do you have any recommendations?
I wouldn't say that the 2.0 is cheating. It's a different movement. And since you start from a dead stop, it's even harder when doing more reps. Like a paused benchpress. The examples shown here aren't exactly 2.0 though.
I have no idea what this technique is doing in a beginner program like starting strength. The goal for beginners is development, not poundages, so why would you program a press variation that grants you nothing developmentally that you can’t get from a strict or push press and that comes with a vastly greater risk of injury and need for moderating volume? I can see this for a competitive lifter trying to squeeze out greater poundages, but I cannot fathom why anyone would teach a newbie to press this way. Personally, I program the push press as a main lift rather than the strict press, as I compete in strongman and just find it a more relevant lift. I tried strict pressing in the gym thinking I’d throw in leg drive solely for the heavy weights, and realized very quickly that that didn’t work very well for me and I didn’t get any carryover from strict pressing. But for someone who’s not competing in a sport, strict pressing certainly has a lot of benefits and could serve as a main lift. Though I still prefer the push press as I think it’s valuable in its explosiveness, something lacking in the other main lifts. Using your body together in a kinetic chain is a useful thing to train, and it looks less silly than CrossFit pull-ups.
I don't understand the movement at all. If you're ending up virtually bench pressing, then bench press. The press is supposed to use your shoulders to the max, not your chess.
Recreational lifters need to prioritize safety over weight. Press 2.0, if not learned with proper coach, can be risky for many people. Better use regular press with slight natural lean, or use push press.
The reason Rip get shit about this shitty press is because of how much he talks down about the Sumo deadlift when in fact they both share the same reason for existing...
I started doing starting strength again last year and this was the one exercise I couldn't do because of my lower back issue. Just like you said I do push press or strict press.
Thanks for directly comparing these two lifts. I first learned how to lift the Big 4 from SS, but I've recently learned that the "strict" OHP is more than a little different. First time I tried this, my front delts were clearly unable to push my current weight. Having lifted this way since last year, I feel somewhat cheated out of potential shoulder growth. It's really into my lifting career though, so I'm grateful for both the experience and opportunity to correct my OHP form while my muscle memory is still quite plastic.
Another great video Bromley! It really cleared up some questions I had regarding the different styles of presses. Something I’m still unclear about though is the difference between a strict press from a dead start from the collarbone and a “strict press” where the lifter drops the bar from chin height before pressing it up. From what I can tell the latter too is somehow affiliated with the Starting Strength system. Can someone enlighten me?
In my personal experience, dropping the bar from chin height gives you a bit of a stretch reflex. I don't really think it matters which one you do though. Starting Strength or not, I'd stick with whatever feels more natural to you.
What these guys said, you get a good amount of stretch reflex. If you have some meat on your shoulders and are a bit bound, there will be a good amount of compression in the shoulder joint the closer you get the bar to your collar bone, so pulling the bar down into that tension can give a big pop back up. I'm not familiar enough with SS or Strengthlifting to know how that plays in or gets regulated. Since that sport is a niche of a sub-niche, it shouldn't concern you unless you plan on competing.
Personally I think there should be separate federations for people with differing limb lengths and height. Tested, non tested and fake natty divisions. You cant have enough federations. Level playing fields and all you know.
@@AlexanderBromley Rippetoe doesn't advocate a backwards lean like that used by the old Olympic lifters, and he spends a lot of space on his books writing about the distinction between his approach and the pros who were leaning back. You were 100% right in the video, those pros would lean back to change the angles of the lift and recruit more of their pecs while using their back to stabilize. Rippetoe advocates a forward hip movement that starts out looking like a backwards lean, but mechanically he's instructing lifters to create anterior tension between their quads and abdominals and to start the lift in the hips using the stretch reflex from the eccentric contraction of the anterior muscles. He's basically just following his principles of eliminating the unnecessary moment arm created between the front of the deltoids and the lockout position, using a whole body movement to do it. I agree with everything you said about the strict press, it's benefits, and why most lifters at the intermediate level and beyond should be doing it. I just thought is was a mischaracterization to compare Rippetoe's method to the old Olympic methods when he spends the majority of the time in his writing explaining how they are different and actively telling his students not to perform the professional lean-back press. Great channel man, love the content.
@@Jahova3131 thats fair. I scoured a few videos and articles and didn't come across that. Between the rules in his organization and his endorsement of Chase Lindley, I had just assume they were part and parcel. Might address this in a different video
@@AlexanderBromley very cool man! Rippetoe is so opinionated and stubborn that it's easy to think he believes his way is the only way. By getting to know him over the years, everything he says should be taken in the context that it is directed at beginners. He never says his style of push press is the only way for all lifters, but he's generally making the case that novice lifters shouldn't try to put heavy weight overhead without a developed kinetic chain that can support it. Once a novice has stopped linearly progressing in his full body lifts, he advocates they move on the intermediate programs with more supporting exercises - he just doesn't talk about those intermediate programs as much because his target audience is novices, and he doesn't want them overcomplicating things.
Rippetoe is salty that Alekseyev did "a blatant push press" and still got credit for the lift from what I believe was a majority Soviet judging panel. It's his opinion that the press got removed from the Olympics primarily because the judging had become politicized enough for the judges to "white light" what was obviously a bad lift. Compare Alekseyev's 507 to Redding's 502 and you'll see an obvious difference in that Alekseyev uses a lot of leg drive while Redding simply leans back and pushes the weight over his head using nothing but his chest, shoulders, and arms. Ironically the 405 press done by Chase Lindsey is one that both he and Rip agree should have been "red lighted" not because of how aggressively he arched his back, but because the bar started going up, dipped back down, then went back up to full lockout. Rip's rules for "Strengthlifting" as he calls it state that once the bar starts upward it cannot travel downward and must keep traveling upward all the way until lockout. Nick Delgadillo also said that he went and told the judges in advance to watch the bar because it was going to dip when Chase pressed 405, basically calling it in advance, but I'm guessing they all love Chase and in the moment they just instinctively gave it the white lights due to excitement.
Nobody wants to be the asshole who red lights a truly amazing feat of strength, except Rip who I believe would have hit Chase with a red light faster than will Smith hit Chris Rock with that right palm.
A key difference between the Press 2.0 and the "Olympic Press", is that the latter involves cleaning the bar from the floor first. This means they used a much wider grip than Rip teaches, and couldn't hover the bar near their chin, nor bounce it off their chest to start the press. You can only do that with big weight if you walk it out from a rack. They started the press from the front rack position, which is far more impressive even with the hip drive and layback.
The SS press just has you initiate the movement with the hip to allow the bar to clear your face/ chin and still be over the middle of your feet. Hyperextending the lower back isn't the point of it, although I can see why some would view it so, just from the visuals.
The push press would be far superior in terms of upper body development, specially if done as a negative/slow eccentric movement on the way down...it will produce significantly more DOMS tho.
I've definitely fucked my back up mis-racking an axle by leaning too far back, this week in fact. Hoping it's better by my comp day at the end of the month. 😓
One more comment and then I'll stop. If you really want a STRICT press that tests upper body strength do the Z press. If you're going to monkey around with a Press 2.0 and add body movement and whatnot, do the push press. Hell, make them clean the bar off the floor and make it a true test of total body strength.
Pressing like this really requires you to hing at the hip and not the back or it hurts. I like how the hip pop gets my face out of the way. I don't lean very far back and keep it closer to a strict press, but I strict press dumbbells and I just like that little bit of bounce. It feels good. It's certainly harder that push presses which I also enjoy. Push presses add some explosion that helps overhead problems I have without the raw overhead explosion of the Oylimpic lifts. I suspect that I strict press dumbbells and prefer a little bounce I. The barbell motions because barbells are less forgiving to injuries and the strict press is the least forgiving. Dumbbells are more comfortable but are by far harder to lift your heaviest with which lends them to the difficult strict motion. Also you don't need to get your face out the way. I do find the barbell press does more for the scapula than dumbbells and adding a strict barbell might challenge stability differently. IDK, I'm thinking out loud. I guess what I'm saying is provided it's an intelligent method I dig it.
Thanks for the info!! I’ve been curious about this as well. I think I’ll push press instead of the 2.0, especially considering I hurt my back the first time I tried doing one of those axel belly lifts. Haven’t been the same since. 🤦♂️
I've always done it the 2.0 way and my back has never had any problems specifically from it that I can tell, sometimes it gets a little sore or achy but I think that is mostly from squating and deadlifting. For what it's worth I'm not a great presser, I think I started starting strength at about 3 sets of 5, 90 lbs (after already training for a bit before). Not long ago I hit 5X5 with 135 and max at 155, but my strength in the lift seems to go away quickly if I don't train it as hard. Sometimes it seems like my gainz in the lift aren't even from getting stronger but getting better at the "2.0" technique (more efficient leanback, etc.).
I didn't suffer any low back aggravation from the Press 2.0, but I also have been catching up on overhead strength due to a labrum tear. I have only just gotten 185 lbs overhead using the Press 2.0 so the weights probably aren't big enough to do much to my low back. I have noticed that the more I used the push press, the better my strict press has gotten. I think the Press 2.0 is a good option for those with knee issues that can't handle the push press, but I don't think the Press 2.0 is effective enough to take the place of the Strict Press or Push Press. To clarify though, the book taught it in a way that sounded like your low back should not flex. The image I got was to keep the spine braced and stable while pushing the hips forward so your body looked like a sideways V instead of a C.
Not a fan of the standing bench press. I did utilize SS years ago when I was learning, as I progressed I dropped it and did more strict pressing. I gained lots of upper body strength and muscle mass from strict pressing and now 200+ for reps. I agree with you that there are more productive ways to build overhead strength.
Although in a old starting video, tommy suggs coaching the press with much less bendback , that looks very similiar to ken pateras 220 kg olympic press you can find online
You seem to mostly address the aggressive lean back in reference to 2.0 rather than the bounce which is rebounding into the quads and abs to produce the lift off bounce for the press. I have a pretty aggressive layback and I agree the layback is debatable when comparing it to something like a push press but the 2.0 as it is taught doesn't even reference the layback (they let people fall into that on their own as the weight gets heavier).
I do a bastardization of the two. I lean enough to get my chin out of the way and after rep 1 I do not stop at the under chin position, I go from top to bottom back up using that little hip move just enough to get the bar past my chin and head it right back up. I see a lot of their guys always starting the lift at the bottom and doing a fairly pronounced hip thrust to get rolling. I do not know if that is easier or harder than what I do...I do know you need more hips to get momentum if you are starting cold at the bottom all the time...I do not know that the shoulders get more out of it than going from full extension to bottom and back up with less hips. I have long forearms and the hips in allows the bar to sink under my chin and definitely loads tension into the lift so I know it makes a difference. Back in the old days I could do more with a seated behind the neck press so I do think standing is harder with the kinetic chain and some form of hips is needed to clear the head. It does take practice to get down and its an interesting technique. I dont get deep into "throwing" the hips and putting as much into it as I see from lots of SS guys (which theirs is not IMO excessive) but I also do not stop at the bottom, I stop at the top similar to how you would do a bench press or incline.
Totally agree with this really well done analysis and the conclusion, that a PP is the better exercise and strenght test compared to the SP 2.0. I think its a bit different for the Log, since you can do an actual strict press with the log without the limitation beeing as big, because the start is higher up. However one thing i was always wondering: Why are Strongman so rarely train the log from the rack compared to barbell push presses/strict presses?
Ok. Hi Brom. First, I use 2.0 a lot but with very moderate lean back. Full disclosure. I have watched Rip with the old York guy teach it. My point being that a strict press cannot rise directly in line with your center of balance because your head is in the way, unlike with dumbbells or kbells. So, the idea is to move the head out of the lift path, just like log. That initial contraction actually increases ROM. At the top, you wanna push the head through. I do admit that historically many lifters were gaming the rules, but using the Rip grip and a moderate to light lean does benefit the lifter. A “strict” press is not really strict because I must move the bar forward around my head instead of straight up. I will argue that a straight path is always best for results. A 12” log will put most short arm pressers at or near their sticking point anyways, and with a lean to clear the head. If I do strict, I always do it with kbs or dbs. Plus, the bent press as Pavel teaches in EtKB is wonderful for shoulder strength, because...because it promotes monster stability in the shoulder and core. In fact, I believe that Poundstone’s CDBell technique looked a lot like a semi bent press. Yep. All I wanna say is straight is best and then get the head through for a full ROM and you have the king of upper body developers. I always include push ups on a 2x4 balancing on a 3” pvc pipe also. I guess normal width push ups may be more triceps, but my shoulders are in great shape and I believe it is cause I follow in Rip’s press methodology.
I think both strict and push/ 2.0 can be used beneficially in a sensible program. The example in the video was quite extreme and the SS program uses a bit of hip movement to get a 'bounce' to help introduce some momentum .
Anyone else find that they strict press more after power cleaning the bar off the ground first? I find that doing the movement first gets my body tight like a bow before strictpressing once locked out at the top of the pull.
If someone is competing, they are forced to use the technique that will get the most weight up. That technique has to be practiced in training, but the strict movements must be used in training to develop all the muscles.
Alex, you are by far the most underrated strength channel on UA-cam. Cheers man
I appreciate that!
here, here!
Dave Tate said the same thing
seriously though
Ha! Im famous now.
I figured you would edit the video after we had established the difference between the double lean back, and the 2.0 on patreon.
This is gonna be controversial af.
Is that your real name though ?
@@slicksouthpaw489 It sounds like the Dutch Duivenneuker. This means pigeon fucker. I hope it's not a real name :D
@@slicksouthpaw489 no. I work for a beer distribution company. It's my beer name. It is a German, and dutch beer combined along with a last name that is specifically designed to make me sound like a complete pervert.
Lol yeah, I didnt. Its a mix of laziness, lack of interest AND a small part that wants to anger the SS diehards
I thought Rip's press 2.0 was when you bounce off of your hip flexors before you press? That's what he advocates in starting strength.
You’re correct. He’s critiquing based on the worst examples of form found in some of their videos, not the actual lift as taught and performed by the novice lifters Rippetoe targets.
I'd like to point out that the style of pressing taught by starting strength is not the exaggerated leaned back version you see in competitions, from the SS book: "Our version of the press is adapted from the Olympic press, preserving the full-body aspects of the lift but eliminating the excessive layback." And part of the press chapter tackles the mistake of pushing yourself away from the bar: "This problem usually occurs due to a loss of control over the lower back position, when the start deteriorates into a lumbar overextension instead of being a hip movement. Since extreme loaded hyperextension of the lumbar spine is dangerous, it’s best to never lose control of the back at all".
I recently seen a video on SS Ig page and they were doing it with tons of flexion in the back.
@@anti_hero_660 it may be so but that's not what they teach to clients. Essentially, it's just a hip forward reach to get the head out of the way of the bar.
CW: homophobia
Yeah i went to a SS session in the UK - the guy taught: "Hips foward like your fucking a girl - Oh no its a guy! Hips back! - now press!"
Yeah, the double leanback Chase uses has unofficially been coined Press 3.0
@@henrypucknell1404 ok thats fucking hilariois xD
The rippetoe 2.0 works for me. Locking my hips by bracing the glutes makes my lower back feel very secure. I don't lean back much though, just enough for my chin to clear the bar as I had understood that going too horizontal meant drifting the lift into bench territory. Zero back issues with this form.
Wuts the weight u press? Prob not much
@@stevenbaker4681 230lbs is my 1rm pr. you?
@@siddislikesgoogle Wow that is heavy, btw do you face any plateaus on the ohp? If so would appreciate some advice! Im currently pressing 150lbs for 3x5 I know its not much tho…
@@mrisaac8510 thanks, if you're heading into the end zone of your novice LP, you'll find yourself reducing the reps and sets as you approach the first peak e.g. 5x3, 3x3, 3x2, 2x3, 1x5, 1x3 etc. I think you also add 5lbs to the bar every 2 and then every 3 w/outs. Basically the progress curve flattens. You have to milk it as much as you can.
You can get a clearer picture of OHP specific recommendations in Rippetoes second book (programming for strength I think it's called).
Eat, sleep, improve form and a fighting attitude help a lot lol (and patience of course). Good luck.
Yes, Alex is taking Chase's bend and thinking that SS encourages that kind of back bend from the start, instead of just pushing your hips forward and back 2-6 inches until the bar clears the top of your head and snapping back to a start position.
Chase’s 405 press is actually an example of the “press 3.0” aka a “double layback”, NOT a press 2.0. There’s a great article about the differences and history on the starting strength website by Carl Raghavan. The press 2.0 does not have the 2nd layback that allows you to extend and get under the bar without actually raising it. The press 2.0 therefore is still appropriate for novices and folks wanting to improve their overhead strength without the added fatigue you get with a heavier push press.
The return of the whiteboard
Legend has it, that if you write “Bromley” on a white board 3 times, he’ll appear and give you some lifting advice.
I think it's worth mentioning that Chase Lindley admitted that his 405lbs press should have been disallowed under Strengthlifting rules. Specifically because of the downward motion of the bar as he leaned back.
@Natty Fatty To be fair, Rip said it should’ve been red lighted too
That's great, but it still doesn't answer the question as to why he's pressing like that in the first place.
@@Yeomannn chase mentioned that he didn’t intend to lean back so much. I’ve seen him train and he’s pressed lighter weights without the exaggerated layback.
Remember, Rip says that a trap bar deadlift is inherently dangerous because it is not stable in the sagittal plane. Imagine how dangerous it would be if a barbell could move in the sagittal plane during an overhead press!
He’s not the brightest boomer around
I think he just hates the trap bar. I get why, its a waste of time exercise IMO (trap bar DL) and you can get more from better movements (deadlift or squat) and I think it caught on in commercial gyms and its just a thing now.
@@oggsmash9989 Personally I think the trap bar is great for anyone not competing in powerlifting. However, I don't care if others disagree. I only mentioned it because Rip repeatedly states that a trap bar is dangerous due to instability in the sagittal plane. Only a dogmatic buffoon could make that claim while simultaneously endorsing the OHP.
@@republicjim120 We can agree to disagree about it being great. It becomes a different exercise than the conventional deadlift due to lifting angle. No need to compete in powerlifting to be able to learn to do a proper deadlift and benefit from a superior exercise. I get why people do a trap bar deadlift, its easier to do and to learn. I generally am not lifting for an easy way to do things though.
@@republicjim120 Also, agreeing to disagree about that trap bar aside I like the lifting in a barn aesthetic and am enjoying your channel. One word of advice...Do not back into a squat rack, always back out and walk forward in. Seems like a small deal but with fatigue re racking backing in can become a problem.
Here is the Starting Strength logic on why they don't push press: startingstrength.com/training/why-we-dont-push-press They say that the "hip movement" they do in the press is self-limiting while leg drive is not. Really? I think it would be pretty obvious if one day a lifter used a slight leg drive and the next day he went into a full squat and essentially performed a thruster. Besides, when you're dealing with novice lifters, the group that Starting Strength is geared towards, it may take them a few workouts to settle into the right technique. Improvements in ALL of the lifts for a novice are going to be based, in part, on small changes in technique from workout to workout. They're just making up reasons to fit their dogmatic narrative.
Let me clarify my point and perhaps make it shorter. If you're going to strict press then STRICT press. I have no problem with strict pressing and do it myself. But the Olympic press aka Starting Strength Press 2.0 is NOT a strict press. It's somewhere between a strict press and a push press. If the goal of doing a strict press is to develop shoulder strength in the bottom position of the press, then the lean back of the Press 2.0 eliminates that portion just as in the push press. Perhaps the Press 2.0 does this to a lesser degree, but if I'm going to do something other than a STRICT press I'd rather push press and save my bad back from that leaning back nonsense.
Great question from smittywerberlaegarmanjensen
I would rather do push press then lean like that. Def have seen the old videos, but i would imagine that i would hurt myself doing that. I do have just a slight lean to get my head out of the way and if I am stepping back from the rack and planting my feet I *may* get a little bounce/compression.
I did strongman for 10 years and used a similiar arching back technique in log and axle press....I'm 47 now and feel every one of those attempts in my lower back...I highly discourage it. Also, if memory serves, wasn't lower back injury one of the reasons it was pulled from the Olympics?
Thanks for let us know sir, your advice is invaluable. Good luck!
No. It was hard to judge form
@@garouthetiktokinfluencerhu9731 It was a secondary reason.
These days, this is the just about the only strength channel I still watch. There has only been one video I did not care for and that was the one with the bodybuilders... I occasionally watch Thrall and Alrsruhe too, and Lobster Strength -- I mean Starting Strength. Bromley is the only channel pumping out non-stop solid information, no nonsense, no frills, no BS, no stupid marketing, no snake-oil, and only real weights.
My two cents: if you are aiming to develop and test pure strength, keep it strict! If you want big weights, Jerk, bent press, or “natural” press. I have practiced the Layback Press and frankly, was not good enough at staying balanced while getting underneath the bar to gain any real advantage. I also think the push press is great, and you can overload it with an “active negative” or slower eccentric to develop stronger pressing muscles.
This is a great video on exercise selection! But you should change the title of the video to The Starting Strength "Press 3.0": Is It Better Than Strict? as this video covers press 3.0 rather than 2.0.
Press 2.0 is not what Chase Lindley, Carl Raghavan, or Serge Redding use(d). That would be what the Starting Strength coaches call Press 3.0 (or the Olympic Press). The press 2.0 is, as you showed at 5:05, used to create a relatively small amount of spring from pushing your hips forward and standing up quickly. Apart from the quick hip thrust forward, this is very similar to a 'strict' overhead press. It's analogous to leg drive in the bench press.
However, the Press 3.0 involves a layback _as_ the barbell leaves the chest to straighten the arms out as opposed to the press 2.0 where the hip thrust _forward_ happens right before the barbell is pressed. I feel this is analogous to a super-arch in the bench.
The Press 3.0 is a misnomer in that it appears as a continuation of the press 2.0 when in reality, you can do a layback with or without a hip thrust (since you can use leg drive AND/OR super arch on the bench press). Chase Lindley is a good example of someone who does both a hip thrust _and_ a layback.
I had no idea how ill prepared I was to make this video....
@@AlexanderBromley Haha nah, this is a solid video. It's just a minor semantic error. With the number of pressing styles discussed by the starting strength coaches, there's bound to be some confusion
My question is why not just push press? Or leg drive it?
They should call it Snap City 2.0
if youre running a comp and want this cheat spine breaker press and not push pressing you should put a comedy show on instead of a strength comp
I'm sorry but you do the starting strength press wrong, I can't take any of this video seriously. It's not about 'leaning back and locking out'.
You are supposed to sink the hips forward to build tension across the anterior chain, then snap the barbell up WHILE you stack your torso under it; never ceasing to shrug the bar up. Contracting the traps like this to un-impinge all the tissue in the shoulder joint
Another good video from Bromley. I am doing master’s SS and have been going back and forth on whether to do a Strict Press or Press 2.0 or pause at the top and bounce at the bottom. I have to say that the bottom bounce seems to be an easier cheat to standardize on than the hip thrust - in my case a bit of knee bend kept creeping into the hip thrust. I recently tried to go to strict + bottom bounce, trying to make that stick. But perhaps a mistake is that I have tried to keep my bar weight where it was and really struggling with the plateau caused by the fact that the strict press (even with bottom bounce) is tougher to move than a Press 2.0. I also agree with the other comments SS doesn’t really teach the lean back. Their version is that you go arch forward and immediately come back to a vertical position. With the lean back you either dont’ bring your back up towards vertical, or else you do come up and then immediately drop back down into the lean. Anyway, really topical for what I am doing right now.
This is an excellent topic. I will never succumb to “powerlifting” or what powerlifting has become. Low bar wide stance squats, arches that look like double rainbows, but I don’t really care about sumo vs conventional deadlifts. The sport is kind of gross to me. Powerlifting builds a great core of strength. But overloading the body in these weird ass positions. It’s just annoying. I agree with Bromley 100%. I don’t give a shit if I ever squat 500 lbs because I only squat high bar and ATG. I don’t pause my 1RM but if I’m doing a single under 95% I’ll pause it. And my numbers are shit. Because I don’t give a fuck about how much weight is on my back. I care about what I feel afterwards. I like the feeling of working. I like to feel like I’ve done something today. I like that more than “I benched 350 lbs 5 times moving the bar 1.5 inches”. I’m going to start moving towards strongman. That shit is way more fun than powerlifting.
Idk you just sound bitter about being weak tbh
@@legrandfromage9682 😂😂 yeah, looking back at this comment, you’re right. The point I was trying to make is that I’m sick of the leverage game. It’s more about what awkward positions you can “wedge” yourself into than the “genuine” strength someone has. And that’s hard to measure in PL. whereas strongman and Olympic lifting there is no arching a bench or sumo deadlifts. You move that weight with sheer strength. I’m glad PL changed the rules on bench. It helped these ridiculously mobile freaks not take world records from those that actually have to move the bar because they can’t transform into a rainbow.
@@dasdos002 true
Leaning back so much is just cheating.
I have the starting strength book and Rip specifically says not to do the Standing Bench Press
that hyperextending looks terrible, why not just do a push press?
Echoing a few others, the 2.0 action is at the hips. From belt line to shoulders there is very little, if any, arch. Done the way I’ve learned it, it isn’t more dangerous than any other lift I do. Whether it builds strength as well as a strict press, I don’t have enough experience to argue about.
It does. This version of the press still take a huge amount upper body strength to finish the lift and not even just lockout strength. I still do Strict press as an accessory
The Press 2.0 and the Olympic press are two different things
This 2.0 version is very much like standing inclined bench press. I personally don't like it.
Push press is way way better option than this weird press 2.0 as it is more realistic in real life situations, looks more elegant than weird press 2.0, and is definitely simpler in terms of technical & safety aspects and timing of the double dips under barbell.
This version of press has taken the actual press, more or less, to the same point where Olympic weightlifting dropped it from competitions in 1972.
I believe that Olympic community should have revised the pressing rules to avoid such movement tweaks rather than dropping the elegant clean & press.
However, clean & press, despite being dropped, retains its individual components in remaining two official lifts...I mean clean portion is still covered in snatches and C&J, and overhead press part is covered in C&J so not too much was lost from Olympic weightlifting.
The press is not at all present in modern olympic weightlifting, the modern jerk has barely anything to do with pressing, in fact If you press any part of it, you’re doing it wrong.
@@dennisnordlund902 actually it was Clean & Press that was dropped. I meant to refer Press part of that. Apology for confusion.
I didn't watch the video yet and my opinion may be unpopular but I think the barbell press is a terrible exercise. It is a good display of strength but terrible for progression and gains and doesn't hit the side delt at all really. Behind Neck Press is far better as you are not moving your spine around just make sure to keep your shoulder joints elevated or they will impinge, and use a 10-20 rep range and don't push to true failure and you will be fine for 99% of people. These days I just do one armed dumbells however and I seem able to get the most weight and hit the shoulders the best. I lean slightly to one side and slightly back to open up the joint more and this seems to really be easy on the shoulders.
I know too many people who have built delts that get compliments from bodybuilders from mainly prioritizing strict barbell presses. It's not the end all be all if aesthetics and symmetry are your goal, but if you struggled to progress I would argue there was something lacking in your approach. That being said, I love behind the neck work and often prescribe it as a way to keep development well rounded.
Jesus Christ, the spine hyperextending that much can't be good. I thought the Rippetoe Row was jumping the shark, but this really is something else.
@UCyg6SRF-lQhfGpKpmPIP0aA I don't disagree that the body English can be a bit much at time. I will say that for beginners it doesn't matter all that much. It's easy to learn and causes adequate stimulus for that demo graphic. A pendlay rows much easier to teach than a bent Row in my opinion.
This isn't Rip's press 2.0 though, he's misrepresented it
What he showed was not Rip’s press variation. Everything he said was true, but the kind of press described in the video is more like the first half of a classic Olympic press. Rip’s press “2.0” does not utilise *lean back* exactly; you just embrace your core/glutes/quads with a straight leg and push your hips forward until your chin is not blocking the bar path. The tension created in your entire body acts like a spring, making the initial part of the light more explosive. Then the press is locked out with a neutral spine (maybe slightly extended if your thoracic extenders are week).
As a side note, the Pendlay row is one of the best back exercises of all time. Don't be chatting shit
Good analysis!
I personally can't fathom why Rippetoe teaches the press this way. SS is marketed as the way to get everyone strong, from a 22 year string bean to his 50 year old mother. Do we want everyone pressing in this comp specific fashion given the obviously increased risk of injury?
Is there an increased risk of injury, though? I mean, provived the person adapts from a low weight.
Doing a back bend until you’re horizontal and locking out your arms to catch the weight then trying to use your abs to stand up after could neverrrrrr cause someone to lose balance and fall or hurt someone’s spine with sheering force.
The reasoning is to "use the most muscle mass, over the longest effective range of motion, to lift the most weight". As Bromley shows the 2.0 uses more muscle mass by bringing in the chest and this means you can use more weight.
He doesn't teach the press this way. He teaches it with a hip thrust, not a lean back. This is just what Chase Lindley does, it doesn't mean it's part of Starting Strength.
Not a rip(heh) on you, but why is it always the people who didn't read the book talking about SS outside of their channel. People look at the main SS exercises, and then look at yt videos, instead of reading the book. What Alexander is talking about in this video, and the videos he has shown, are not press 2.0, it's not what SS teaches, at all, if anything, it's what SS tells us not to do.
As soon as the question said "the weight is limited to the front delt and the other muscles barely benefit." My first response was:
Isn't that the point? And wouldn't the push press solve this issue anyway?
Let me answer this one: no, no it isn't.
It's a technique developed to allow for maximum weight to be lifted within the limits of the competition rules. It's exactly the same thing as the high arch 3 inch bench presses.
Ironically, these new strengthlifting competitions differed from powerlifting by using the press instead of the bench press precisely because of this bullshit being so widespread on the bench.
500 pounds pressers with the aggressive lean back could press over 400 pounds strict asf
Interesting video. Personally I fucking hate the Press 2.0 and I don't give a fuck how much Chase presses that shit will always be disgusting.
It's normalizing the exact reasons the Press was banned from Olympic lifting in the first place. Like, you can be strong at the Press without using form like that. Some movements like the bench press and squat are bastardiz- I'm sorry, "optimized" to allow you to lift more weight. I don't think the Press should be as well. Do it strict, do it "right" and get strong that way. If numbers is all they care about then replace the Press with the Push Press.
The Press 2.0 is basically the "hyper arch, mega wide grip, 4" ROM" bench press except it's a shoulder press instead. I know my opinion means jackshit overall but that's just how I feel.
Yeah, for development's sake, the strict "right" way is probably best for the vast majority of lifters.
Lol I don't disagree with you. Given that strongman is the wild west with the 'any way any how' approach, I do have to bite my tongue. The fact that it at least has a specific technique that requires some skill and timing to master makes me hate it less than powerlifting nonsense. With a 'sumo bench', all you need are short arms and a long, bendy torso to reduce the feat to a 5 board press. But I hear you. It violates the spirit of what a strict press is. It's also a convoluted attempt to reproduce what push presses already do.... and it seems to do it worse. When I imagine who walks in the gym to practice this, I see pretentious strength hipsters and that's what enrages me.
@@AlexanderBromley couldn't agree more. If it's just about moving the weight, the push press does it better, and carries over to athletic endeavours more. So why do this silly shit? 🤔
Agreed.
I have low back issues so the "press 2.0" just seems like a terrible idea for me personally.
you are very good at drawing btw.
I’ve though this exact thing the last two years. My program has OHP as a main lift. My thoughts are similar to one of the points you made. If your goal is to get stronger, then why would someone utilize the stretch reflex of the hips and abs to move the weight. And if you were going to create an mechanical advantage to move more weight. The why not just use the push press for its advantages. Great video!
The stretch reflex and tightening of my abs helps my press a lot. Push presses up and strict press back down “the negative” have helped my strict press go up as well. I love Coach Rip but guys who do this for a living at that level tend to get rigid on their methodology at times.
I think if you are not laying back excessively, the hip move is more akin to a slight back arch and pinching your shoulders back in a bench press...its not so much a "cheat" to do tons more weight at an optimization to get more load throughout. I also think if you stop at the top and go down and right back up, the hip move/layback is minimized to just enough to get the chin out of the way and its how I prefer to do it.
I posted a form check on starting strength reddit for my strict presss and got a ton of crap. I was trying their 2.0 and it's just weird. I'm so happy I found Bromley on here for a voice of reason.
Great video. And, your comments about the arbitrary nature of the rules for the press is why the press was removed after 1972.
Standing incline press
Thank you for making this , and talking about how all of these presses came from rule incentives. Push press sounds good to try, strict always seemed beat me up .
Thank you. Save my back. Have been doing push press with no problems. It is an unnecessary complication. Will do regular press. 🙏🏻👹🏊♀️🏋🏻 14:24
Rip's version of sport being anti bench arch, and anti sumo, but allowing this press makes me lol.
Yeah fr
Lifters should have a wall behind when strict pressing wich invalidates the lift if touched. Easy solution. Much easier than the 0 ROM bench press problem we see in powerlifting.
This whole explanation is wrong. Clear evidence of why Mr. Bromley's channel is underrated.
Well, the debate is over….strict press added back into the routine. Thanks man
Lol I always lean back a bit when I OHP. Feels more natural that way, cant get nowhere near to my chest without elbows getting behind the bar and the weight falling forward without a lean. Sure, there probably is no need to touch the chest but I like the fact that there is a clear bottom for the range of motion. Some have told me that my lower back will be f'd by doing that but honestly it feels great when properly braced.
IMO this is one of the dumbest things to come out of the SS community. And I say that as a fan of SS - I learned a ton from SS at the beginning of my weightlifting journey. I believe they had it right with how they originally taught the press. As strict as possible, lean back just enough to clear the head out of the bar path and then immediately back under the bar. For their special strength lifting competition format (and for the athletes that are interested in training a special technique for that) this is fine, but for the vast majority of the audience they claim to serve, who are mostly just interested in learning to use barbells to develop overall general physical strength, this 2.0 version puts too much strain on the lower back, invites knee bend, and turns the lift from one that primarily strengthens the shoulders (the entire shoulder musculature) into a lift that uses the chest and front shoulders to lift the bar. We already have the bench press for that.
Hi the full lay back press isn't the Starting Strength 2.0 Press it's more like 2.5 or 3.0 even.
The SS 2.0 Press is very close to the Strict Press there's just a little bit of movement which aids the bar path.
The book states you shouldn’t be doing a big lay back. The lay back in the way it’s taught is very minimal. I have never taught anyone to do a layback. And if I were to do it, it would kill my back. And my clients that do it instinctively just do it. It’s a movement you either can or can not do. And out of every client I have ever taught that does an aggressive layback there has never been one injury from it. I know everyone uses chase as an example. But I watched him train for years and watched his 405. He has always done aggressive layback. And since his abs are really strong he’s never had any issues.
You should write a book Bromley, something for ignorant but interested folk like me. History of the lifts, explanation of the history of different strength sports and where they are today, etc. If something like this already exists do you have any recommendations?
I wouldn't say that the 2.0 is cheating. It's a different movement.
And since you start from a dead stop, it's even harder when doing more reps. Like a paused benchpress.
The examples shown here aren't exactly 2.0 though.
My standing presses are always stronger than when I do seated variations
Probably not as strict as you think while standing. Also locking your legs is similar to leg drive in that the tension helps neural recruitment
Chase didn't "pull" the bar down. He thrust his hips forward, and this lowered the upper body and the bar.
I have no idea what this technique is doing in a beginner program like starting strength. The goal for beginners is development, not poundages, so why would you program a press variation that grants you nothing developmentally that you can’t get from a strict or push press and that comes with a vastly greater risk of injury and need for moderating volume? I can see this for a competitive lifter trying to squeeze out greater poundages, but I cannot fathom why anyone would teach a newbie to press this way.
Personally, I program the push press as a main lift rather than the strict press, as I compete in strongman and just find it a more relevant lift. I tried strict pressing in the gym thinking I’d throw in leg drive solely for the heavy weights, and realized very quickly that that didn’t work very well for me and I didn’t get any carryover from strict pressing. But for someone who’s not competing in a sport, strict pressing certainly has a lot of benefits and could serve as a main lift. Though I still prefer the push press as I think it’s valuable in its explosiveness, something lacking in the other main lifts. Using your body together in a kinetic chain is a useful thing to train, and it looks less silly than CrossFit pull-ups.
I don't understand the movement at all. If you're ending up virtually bench pressing, then bench press. The press is supposed to use your shoulders to the max, not your chess.
Recreational lifters need to prioritize safety over weight. Press 2.0, if not learned with proper coach, can be risky for many people. Better use regular press with slight natural lean, or use push press.
That was a flawless pronounciation
Man. I hate to be that guy but this just seems like a risky way to press! I’m Imagining what could go wrong and ouch.
Has there been reports of upper chest development from the lean back?? If that’s the case I may be all for it lol
I’m a big fan of these flights but im taller 6’5 so it’s a long way up and takes a lot of coordination... dumbbells it is for me most days..
The reason Rip get shit about this shitty press is because of how much he talks down about the Sumo deadlift when in fact they both share the same reason for existing...
The Press 2.0 is just the Tony Garcy Press from the rack.
I started doing starting strength again last year and this was the one exercise I couldn't do because of my lower back issue. Just like you said I do push press or strict press.
Thanks for directly comparing these two lifts. I first learned how to lift the Big 4 from SS, but I've recently learned that the "strict" OHP is more than a little different. First time I tried this, my front delts were clearly unable to push my current weight. Having lifted this way since last year, I feel somewhat cheated out of potential shoulder growth. It's really into my lifting career though, so I'm grateful for both the experience and opportunity to correct my OHP form while my muscle memory is still quite plastic.
Another great video Bromley! It really cleared up some questions I had regarding the different styles of presses. Something I’m still unclear about though is the difference between a strict press from a dead start from the collarbone and a “strict press” where the lifter drops the bar from chin height before pressing it up. From what I can tell the latter too is somehow affiliated with the Starting Strength system. Can someone enlighten me?
In my personal experience, dropping the bar from chin height gives you a bit of a stretch reflex. I don't really think it matters which one you do though. Starting Strength or not, I'd stick with whatever feels more natural to you.
@@kirby7475 The momentum makes it easier. It's kind of like bouncing the bar off your chest in the bench press.
What these guys said, you get a good amount of stretch reflex. If you have some meat on your shoulders and are a bit bound, there will be a good amount of compression in the shoulder joint the closer you get the bar to your collar bone, so pulling the bar down into that tension can give a big pop back up. I'm not familiar enough with SS or Strengthlifting to know how that plays in or gets regulated. Since that sport is a niche of a sub-niche, it shouldn't concern you unless you plan on competing.
Personally I think there should be separate federations for people with differing limb lengths and height. Tested, non tested and fake natty divisions. You cant have enough federations. Level playing fields and all you know.
In powerlifting...going down an inch is considered a red light
I struggle with the press. Can I use dumbbells?
You can you tube Alexeve pressing a W/R 524 #
New to the channel... im impressed. Well said.
Mitchel Hooper presses the log like that. Got a lotta shit for it too.
Might want to double check what Rippetoe teaches, cause that ain't it.
What was incorrect
@@AlexanderBromley Rippetoe doesn't advocate a backwards lean like that used by the old Olympic lifters, and he spends a lot of space on his books writing about the distinction between his approach and the pros who were leaning back. You were 100% right in the video, those pros would lean back to change the angles of the lift and recruit more of their pecs while using their back to stabilize. Rippetoe advocates a forward hip movement that starts out looking like a backwards lean, but mechanically he's instructing lifters to create anterior tension between their quads and abdominals and to start the lift in the hips using the stretch reflex from the eccentric contraction of the anterior muscles. He's basically just following his principles of eliminating the unnecessary moment arm created between the front of the deltoids and the lockout position, using a whole body movement to do it. I agree with everything you said about the strict press, it's benefits, and why most lifters at the intermediate level and beyond should be doing it. I just thought is was a mischaracterization to compare Rippetoe's method to the old Olympic methods when he spends the majority of the time in his writing explaining how they are different and actively telling his students not to perform the professional lean-back press. Great channel man, love the content.
@@Jahova3131 thats fair. I scoured a few videos and articles and didn't come across that. Between the rules in his organization and his endorsement of Chase Lindley, I had just assume they were part and parcel. Might address this in a different video
@@AlexanderBromley very cool man! Rippetoe is so opinionated and stubborn that it's easy to think he believes his way is the only way. By getting to know him over the years, everything he says should be taken in the context that it is directed at beginners. He never says his style of push press is the only way for all lifters, but he's generally making the case that novice lifters shouldn't try to put heavy weight overhead without a developed kinetic chain that can support it. Once a novice has stopped linearly progressing in his full body lifts, he advocates they move on the intermediate programs with more supporting exercises - he just doesn't talk about those intermediate programs as much because his target audience is novices, and he doesn't want them overcomplicating things.
Rippetoe is salty that Alekseyev did "a blatant push press" and still got credit for the lift from what I believe was a majority Soviet judging panel. It's his opinion that the press got removed from the Olympics primarily because the judging had become politicized enough for the judges to "white light" what was obviously a bad lift. Compare Alekseyev's 507 to Redding's 502 and you'll see an obvious difference in that Alekseyev uses a lot of leg drive while Redding simply leans back and pushes the weight over his head using nothing but his chest, shoulders, and arms. Ironically the 405 press done by Chase Lindsey is one that both he and Rip agree should have been "red lighted" not because of how aggressively he arched his back, but because the bar started going up, dipped back down, then went back up to full lockout. Rip's rules for "Strengthlifting" as he calls it state that once the bar starts upward it cannot travel downward and must keep traveling upward all the way until lockout. Nick Delgadillo also said that he went and told the judges in advance to watch the bar because it was going to dip when Chase pressed 405, basically calling it in advance, but I'm guessing they all love Chase and in the moment they just instinctively gave it the white lights due to excitement.
Nobody wants to be the asshole who red lights a truly amazing feat of strength, except Rip who I believe would have hit Chase with a red light faster than will Smith hit Chris Rock with that right palm.
Like getting your take on the push press!
You probably know this, but they removed the press from the Olympics because the athletes were using back bend, which was considered cheating.
A key difference between the Press 2.0 and the "Olympic Press", is that the latter involves cleaning the bar from the floor first. This means they used a much wider grip than Rip teaches, and couldn't hover the bar near their chin, nor bounce it off their chest to start the press. You can only do that with big weight if you walk it out from a rack. They started the press from the front rack position, which is far more impressive even with the hip drive and layback.
The SS press just has you initiate the movement with the hip to allow the bar to clear your face/ chin and still be over the middle of your feet. Hyperextending the lower back isn't the point of it, although I can see why some would view it so, just from the visuals.
The push press would be far superior in terms of upper body development, specially if done as a negative/slow eccentric movement on the way down...it will produce significantly more DOMS tho.
I've definitely fucked my back up mis-racking an axle by leaning too far back, this week in fact. Hoping it's better by my comp day at the end of the month. 😓
One more comment and then I'll stop. If you really want a STRICT press that tests upper body strength do the Z press. If you're going to monkey around with a Press 2.0 and add body movement and whatnot, do the push press. Hell, make them clean the bar off the floor and make it a true test of total body strength.
My lumbar fusion intrinsically says, I’ll pass…braced core, strict press is what I can handle. 320x10 on the push press, awesome 👍🏻
Pressing like this really requires you to hing at the hip and not the back or it hurts.
I like how the hip pop gets my face out of the way. I don't lean very far back and keep it closer to a strict press, but I strict press dumbbells and I just like that little bit of bounce. It feels good.
It's certainly harder that push presses which I also enjoy. Push presses add some explosion that helps overhead problems I have without the raw overhead explosion of the Oylimpic lifts.
I suspect that I strict press dumbbells and prefer a little bounce I. The barbell motions because barbells are less forgiving to injuries and the strict press is the least forgiving. Dumbbells are more comfortable but are by far harder to lift your heaviest with which lends them to the difficult strict motion. Also you don't need to get your face out the way.
I do find the barbell press does more for the scapula than dumbbells and adding a strict barbell might challenge stability differently. IDK, I'm thinking out loud.
I guess what I'm saying is provided it's an intelligent method I dig it.
Thanks for the info!! I’ve been curious about this as well. I think I’ll push press instead of the 2.0, especially considering I hurt my back the first time I tried doing one of those axel belly lifts. Haven’t been the same since. 🤦♂️
I've always done it the 2.0 way and my back has never had any problems specifically from it that I can tell, sometimes it gets a little sore or achy but I think that is mostly from squating and deadlifting. For what it's worth I'm not a great presser, I think I started starting strength at about 3 sets of 5, 90 lbs (after already training for a bit before). Not long ago I hit 5X5 with 135 and max at 155, but my strength in the lift seems to go away quickly if I don't train it as hard. Sometimes it seems like my gainz in the lift aren't even from getting stronger but getting better at the "2.0" technique (more efficient leanback, etc.).
I didn't suffer any low back aggravation from the Press 2.0, but I also have been catching up on overhead strength due to a labrum tear. I have only just gotten 185 lbs overhead using the Press 2.0 so the weights probably aren't big enough to do much to my low back. I have noticed that the more I used the push press, the better my strict press has gotten. I think the Press 2.0 is a good option for those with knee issues that can't handle the push press, but I don't think the Press 2.0 is effective enough to take the place of the Strict Press or Push Press. To clarify though, the book taught it in a way that sounded like your low back should not flex. The image I got was to keep the spine braced and stable while pushing the hips forward so your body looked like a sideways V instead of a C.
Whiteboard gang
Not a fan of the standing bench press. I did utilize SS years ago when I was learning, as I progressed I dropped it and did more strict pressing. I gained lots of upper body strength and muscle mass from strict pressing and now 200+ for reps. I agree with you that there are more productive ways to build overhead strength.
Although in a old starting video, tommy suggs coaching the press with much less bendback , that looks very similiar to ken pateras 220 kg olympic press you can find online
You seem to mostly address the aggressive lean back in reference to 2.0 rather than the bounce which is rebounding into the quads and abs to produce the lift off bounce for the press. I have a pretty aggressive layback and I agree the layback is debatable when comparing it to something like a push press but the 2.0 as it is taught doesn't even reference the layback (they let people fall into that on their own as the weight gets heavier).
I do a bastardization of the two. I lean enough to get my chin out of the way and after rep 1 I do not stop at the under chin position, I go from top to bottom back up using that little hip move just enough to get the bar past my chin and head it right back up. I see a lot of their guys always starting the lift at the bottom and doing a fairly pronounced hip thrust to get rolling. I do not know if that is easier or harder than what I do...I do know you need more hips to get momentum if you are starting cold at the bottom all the time...I do not know that the shoulders get more out of it than going from full extension to bottom and back up with less hips. I have long forearms and the hips in allows the bar to sink under my chin and definitely loads tension into the lift so I know it makes a difference. Back in the old days I could do more with a seated behind the neck press so I do think standing is harder with the kinetic chain and some form of hips is needed to clear the head.
It does take practice to get down and its an interesting technique. I dont get deep into "throwing" the hips and putting as much into it as I see from lots of SS guys (which theirs is not IMO excessive) but I also do not stop at the bottom, I stop at the top similar to how you would do a bench press or incline.
Totally agree with this really well done analysis and the conclusion, that a PP is the better exercise and strenght test compared to the SP 2.0. I think its a bit different for the Log, since you can do an actual strict press with the log without the limitation beeing as big, because the start is higher up. However one thing i was always wondering: Why are Strongman so rarely train the log from the rack compared to barbell push presses/strict presses?
Ok. Hi Brom. First, I use 2.0 a lot but with very moderate lean back. Full disclosure. I have watched Rip with the old York guy teach it. My point being that a strict press cannot rise directly in line with your center of balance because your head is in the way, unlike with dumbbells or kbells. So, the idea is to move the head out of the lift path, just like log. That initial contraction actually increases ROM. At the top, you wanna push the head through. I do admit that historically many lifters were gaming the rules, but using the Rip grip and a moderate to light lean does benefit the lifter. A “strict” press is not really strict because I must move the bar forward around my head instead of straight up. I will argue that a straight path is always best for results. A 12” log will put most short arm pressers at or near their sticking point anyways, and with a lean to clear the head. If I do strict, I always do it with kbs or dbs. Plus, the bent press as Pavel teaches in EtKB is wonderful for shoulder strength, because...because it promotes monster stability in the shoulder and core. In fact, I believe that Poundstone’s CDBell technique looked a lot like a semi bent press. Yep. All I wanna say is straight is best and then get the head through for a full ROM and you have the king of upper body developers. I always include push ups on a 2x4 balancing on a 3” pvc pipe also. I guess normal width push ups may be more triceps, but my shoulders are in great shape and I believe it is cause I follow in Rip’s press methodology.
I think both strict and push/ 2.0 can be used beneficially in a sensible program. The example in the video was quite extreme and the SS program uses a bit of hip movement to get a 'bounce' to help introduce some momentum .
All the trolling for weightlifting vids I've done, this is the first you've ever appeared in my offerings. Good level headed conversation though.
I have lower back issues from some bad landings jumping out of plans and the lean back doesn’t bother my back any.
Anyone else find that they strict press more after power cleaning the bar off the ground first? I find that doing the movement first gets my body tight like a bow before strictpressing once locked out at the top of the pull.
If someone is competing, they are forced to use the technique that will get the most weight up. That technique has to be practiced in training, but the strict movements must be used in training to develop all the muscles.
Great video, sets the record straight. If the spine is not in a natural position, it's probably not a well executed exercise.