The Biggest Problem with Gi Jiu Jitsu (and how to fix it)
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- The 50/50 guard is one of the most polarizing positions in all of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Heavily popularized by the mendes brothers in the mid 2000's it's made its imprint in the Gi competition scene. Enjoy as I delve into the history and future of the position!
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00:00 Intro
1:59 Point Fighting and Stalling
2:59 Bad for Spectators
3:44 Rule Changes
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If you play 50/50 guard leave right now... jkjk Enjoy!
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My butt crack being exposed is my greatest fear when I’m rolling 😂 more than actually being submitted. Jokes aside this video was awesome! 50/50 is definitely not exciting to see especially when it goes on during the ENTIRE round. I love to see some rules being made about this 👍🔥 thanks for the video!
Thank you my number 1 fan! 😂
Such a tricky position to deal with. At this point it’s so ingrained in this sport you can’t just take it away. The commentator at the end was so spot on, “we don’t need to make the position illegal, we need to make STALLING illegal” and that was from like 2009!
Exactly man. Its crazy how long its taken them to actually start doing something about it.
Heel hook
Love the new stalling penalties and I am hoping the IBJJF continues to call stalling with more frequency not just in 50/50 but in any positions where the athletes are not trying to improve position. It appears they are being more strict and I believe it is encouraging action and more exciting matches for spectators
I second that!
Funny thing is. Bjj guys on the Internet were trashing judo for implementing a gajillion rules against stalling and now the ibjjf is doing it themselves. Lol I am interested how the keyboard bjj warriors are answering 😂 lol
Allow heel hooks with the gi, and most of these problems will disappear.
You highlighted early on in the video a simple solution: allow heel hooks. As you state, "...with the biggest threat being removed, the position becomes neutered."
So rather than adding more rules to address an issue created by yet other rules, removing the ban on heel hooks for purple and above would go a long way towards fixing this.
Yea its pretty much like taking extra medicine because of the side effects of the original medicine. But I guess the big controversy If they removed the ban on heel hooks, would be how difficult it'd be to escape once applied due to the gi material.
Excellent solution.
@@DeepDiveJJ perhaps, and that's certainly a point I've heard made before, but isn't that a feature of all submissions in gi? Heck, that's often a point that's pushed as a positive of gi training: how it's harder to escape submissions.
I agree heel hook, and starting train since white belt so you know how deal.
Historically it was banned because bjj fighters did not know how to defend, during a challenge between hélio gracie and oswaldo fadda (who teaches jj in poor areas while the gracies taught only in the upscale areas of rio de Janeiro) the hélio team lost most of the fights due to not knowing how to defend their legs, so the gracies created the narrative that this was a dirty technique used by poor people who couldn't afford a gi. Hélio, when he was old before he died, admitted that a "fadda" was enough to win "gracie jiu-jitsu"
Well put. I definitely agree with the rule changes and hope they move forward with de-incentivizing 5050
I hope so too!
Ultimately it needs to be addressed within the rules, however, athletes of all levels need to learn to deal with, and escape the position effectively. Waiting for someone else to fix the problem is frivolous. Take responsibility and learn the position.
I completely agree, however, that position in particular should be addressed in some fashion in a “sport” environment where there is a running clock and point system, much like stalemates in folkstyle wrestling or the time limit in freestyle wrestling once you have your opponent to their belly on the mat. In submission only, which is the best version of bjj imo, for sure just play it out, these high level black belts , mendes, miyao, they know exactly what they’re doing in that position, essentially playing speed chess, again, my counter argument is within the framework of a “sport” competition with points and layers of rules under a time clock.
Great video. I agree with you that the rule changes are a good thing.
Thanks for watching!!
I believe until BJJ finds a method to force opponents to engage in a meaningful manner, we will always find competitors who will try to abuse the point system. The best solution I've seen so far is sub-only matches. No points.
Sub only matches definitely have their advantages. Like maybe ebi style? Or after the time runs out should they go to ref decision?
I couldn’t agree more.
If it's EBI style then you end up with people riding out the clock to win overtime. If it's ONLY sub then you'll end up with draws and what do you do then? How do people advance in a comp? Points are practical for tournaments, moves the matches along.
It's not a good solution. Sub only will often end up in a draw, so the referee will make the call?
@@DeepDiveJJ after time runs out you each start in a sub and have to escape.
Perhaps get rid of all sweep points that don't land you in mount or side control. Perhaps a reset for all guard situations that led to stalemates or stalling. It's heavy handed, but would change the game to a more submission focused offensive style.
hmmm Thats an interesting one
A position that leads to nothing but stalling in the Gi and often a submission in No-Gi. The easiest solution is to just allow heel hooks in the Gi. With heel hooks you trade the least exciting outcome of a match for the most exciting.
We should add "military fighting" like in Sweden or Denmark where you have GI-style grappling but in military uniforms. I think this would help people appreciate the practicality of grips and GI submissions in general
I like that!
Or gi MMA. For judo throws etc
Crazy idea, hear me out. Instead of spiraling down the neverending rabbit hole of banning specific positions or making all sorts of new rules because players figure out ways to stall, what if there was a tournament set up like this:
1. Time Limit
2. Submission only (no points, advantages, or judges, EVER, only a single referee)
3. If no one submits anyone, there's just no champion that year. Period! If you want to be champion, you have to submit someone. If no one can do it, too bad. You've gotta risk it to get the biscuit. If you want the payout or the belt or gold, then you've gotta submit people. That simple.
Honestly that'd be pretty cool to see! People would legit be tryna kill each other haha
@@DeepDiveJJ And that's what the fans want, right???
@@thechaddad1609 💯
The best 50/50 counter is the forwarding button
😂😂 seriously
It’d be cool in my opinion if they shortened the black belt matches to maybe 6-7 minutes and went harder for stalling like penalizing a non progress 50/50 guard. That way there’s little room for major stalling. I think World Pro does this and I have seen a ton of action packed matches from there.
10 minutes is a long time. Maybe they could trial this at the Pro League for entertainment
Yep, its definitely abused at the highest level sometimes. Would like to see IBJFF go ahead and stand the fighters up after 20 seconds of 50/50 regardless of belt grip or not. Good news is last weekends Pans was really good with guys like Wardzinski and Meregali. More guys these days are pushing the pace and not stalling when they are up in points.
I had noticed that too! That black belts at Pans had a ton of action oriented matches. If i remember correctly I think most of the black belt finals were great. (which i feel is not often the case)
Tainan is a big part of what made watching gi matches boring. He's insanely good, but he's also insanely tactical. The ones fighting a more entertaining style run into a problem with him in that he can stall out their attempts.
I know he's not the only one t hat uses the 50/50. I absolutely know this for certain and I am not blaming him for it. However being so good as he is he kind of has an obligation to fight for entertainment value as well. Develop the sport a bit. Be on the forefront. Make neutral viewers that might not know the sport get that eye-popping "WOW" moment. If I were to try to show off the sport to my coworkers, I would not for even a split second show a "top tier" match to them. The scrambles, the quick motions and the rough and tumble is what is fun to show.
Again, Tainan is not to blame, but one has to remember that middle weight used to be one of the most entertaining, quick, fast and vicious weight classes. Just going back a few years. Now many of the middle weights have gone away to more lucrative scenes. For example Langaker who went over to ONE Championship and is making more money there in just the recent two matches than fighting in the Gi did for over 13 years. If anything it was a net loss financially to compete.. and when the business went into stalling the matches against him for the last couple years. Like last worlds where he was swept ONCE and his opponent, a name I can't even remember, clung onto his leg like his life depended on it... then proceeded to lose in spectacular fashion against Tainan because he beat one of the few who could match Tainan by fucking STALLING his way through the points earned by a fucking single sweep. To me this marked the death of the Gi as a spectator sport.. and serves only as something for the especially interested. I still train in the Gi myself, but had I even been young enough to compete.. I doubt I would have bothered.
Tainan is playing the rules. However he does well playing the rules that is not a spectator friendly sport. I genuinely do not think he could fare as well in No-Gi (outside IBJJF) where they are trying to make it a sport that is fun to watch.
We can thank the Mendes and Miyaos for the 50/50 adv playstyle. But, I think the Worm Guard is even worse. Once you have your leg wrapped around by the Gi, it's damn near impossible to break the grip. There is no meaningful counterplay for the top person and is relegated to just defending attacks which becomes a massive stalling match. Need rule change for that as well.
While your at it make penalties for going out of bounce. To many of these guys wrestle near the line to roll out of anything and get a restart
Oh man I hate that so much. Saw a match like that the other day that had like 20 resets because the guy kept running to the edge of the mat. And not one penalty was given.
@@DeepDiveJJ right. When I saw Craig Jones lose to that bald guy songi X in abi dabi they bald dude look like a track star running from Jones. So bad just give up and don’t compete looks bad
As a fan of the sport,, I wish they would Allow reaping and heel hooks I the gi.
would be interesting 😈
30 secs to work the ref stands them up
Why not just allow heel hooks and reaping? I don't understand what the problem is
The belief is that because of the gi material, heel hooks will be impossible to get out of. But at this point, im all for the heel hooks and reaps to put an end to this non sense lol
@@DeepDiveJJ so don’t get in that position in the first place 😂
No need to add more rules. Simply remove the rule banning heel hooks and the rest will naturally sort itself out.
Would def make things more interesting!
Allow heel hooks.
heel hooks FTW
Heel hooks in gi can be more effectively stopped with gi grips. It could help, but it won't erase stalling.
Since years it's not Like this... Most fights are Crazy action... You See Way more subs in an ibjjf gi tournament than in any wno or even sub only tournaments... Way more... And even a lot of The fights who End up with points can be Crazy exiting... Just go and watch the last Pans or other ibjjf tournaments... But it's true that some stallingrules helped .. but also a lot og the atletes have more sub oriented games These daxs
That last pans was really great. Didnt see a whole lot of boring 50/50 exchanges in the belt belt finals either. Was super entertaining to watch!
@@DeepDiveJJ the Adam vs Felipe fight was Crazy...!!
Penalize by standing them back up.
If only. The biggest issue facing competitive BJJ really in any format is that slowing action down, producing pressure, and drawing things out are all incentivized.
I believe it was Craig Jones who was also recently saying that high level guys would rather go out and play hyper-conservatively because even if they lose, it’s in a less memorable fashion. It makes it easier for their brand to sell instructionals, merch, and memberships.
So basically both the rules and the economics in BJJ drive the sport to these kinds of ends. In a vacuum, there are plenty of fixes that could speed up the momentum. Allow any subs, add push out rules, make takedowns meaningful, stand people back up when progress isn’t being made, add time limits, actually throw the book at stalling, etc. etc. The issue is that if you make competition more explosive and aggressive, you risk alienating the absolutely massive more casual hobbyist type people.
It’s kind of a catch 22 for the sport imo. You can either make the sport far more watchable and probably lose a bunch of more causal folks, or keep it the way it is. I think over time people will warm up to more explosive stuff, but we are probably a ways out from that. Still a lot of places that think “takedown” is synonymous with “inevitable injury.” But until the sport values and rewards aggressive plays with more risk involved, we are just going to keep seeing this kind of thing.
You made a bunch of really interesting points. When Craig Jones said that, it was something that I'd never even thought of. It definitely makes me respect guys like Nicholas Meregali who are already at the top yet choose to chase the submission at all cost.
More rules? Nah just allow heelhooks
😈 lets do it muwhaha
@@DeepDiveJJ yeah fuck it why not
This literally happened to me in a comp the other day. I got scored upon and then the guy dragged me into 50/50 for a couple of minutes. I now have to make myself more familiar with 50/50. But I still think it's a sht position.
Yea it can be especially frustrating to end up there smh Theres a Nicholas Meregali 50/50 escape video out there that I watched the other day. Was really good
Just start allowing heel hooks in the gi, problem solved 😎👏
😈 I like that idea
This is why I prefer watching purple belt comp. A lot more fighting. Less foot massage action
Yea they really go for the kill
The biggest problem is no gi sweaty feet touchers that think heel hooks are the standard of Bjj. Don’t care what anyone says I don’t go to training to touch feet
😂 those perverted feet touchers
Just allow heel hooks, you fix the problem.
Problem is heel hooks with all the fabric of the gi is basically a instant win card vs in nogi where it’s easier to get out of it
Gi 50-50 is boring, no gi 50-50 is dangerous af, all those heel hooks.
I like the position in No gi but in gi it just feels useless haha
Agreed! The difference between being allowed to heel hook and not being allowed to heel hook makes it almost an entirely different position lol
Allow heel hooks!
Amen! Lol Let’s put an end to this 😈
The fewer rules the better. Less regulation is better, otherwise it will become like judo where every other grip and technique gets banned for “better viewership”. Who cares about the dumb viewers, this is not* a spectator sport. If any changes should be done, make heelhooks legal in the gi.
Would be interesting to see the gi with heel hooks haha
It's always comical when someone cannot address a technique that they have to resort to the "stalling" argument. 'Please let go of me. I can't get out.' 'Wahhh you're not trying to escape from sidecontrol so my sloppy attacks won't work.' 😂
😂 lmaooo
Gi doesnt apply to fighting anymore. It did 20 years ago but then it became a niche sport like TKD. If i want to wear a Gi and learn to fight ill do judo. If i want to do nogi ill train mma, submission grappling, or kickboxing. There is a reason Jon Jones never trained in the Gi. It has no place in the fight world anymore.
I mean its definitely gone in the sport direction but I still think there are some benefits to training in the Gi.
Remove the gi and all the problems go away
😂 Yes but then you're stuck doing no gi
@@DeepDiveJJ but my fingers hurt
@@sirpibble As a nail biter myself, the gi struggle is ever worse lol