Compare: Espresso Quality on Rotary and Vibration Pump Machines
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2017
- Compare espresso quality when the only variable is pump type of the machine. Marc from Whole Latte Love pulls simultaneous side by side espresso shots on two Rocket Espresso machines. One has a rotary pump the other a vibration pump. Find out which machine makes a better espresso when pump type is the only variable.
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Thanks so much for this video. It puts to rest a lot of feelings that I had.I have a PID modded Silvia and want to change my machine. I was looking at an E61 but the smallest footprint ones have a vibratory pump and I felt that shots from a rotary looked better and had better mouthfeel. This video confirms my suspicion.
I have lived with Silvia for 10 years and only had to replace a boiler gasket last year. Things that I can tell people with a Silvia and a PID:
1. As per the video above, the pulsing of the the boiler element causes the pump speed to fluctuate. I was thinking of adding a regulating circuit to the electricity on the pump but then I got a simple idea...flip the steam setting on while pulling a shot. On a non PID modified machine with a dead band controller, the element is either on or off, so there are no pulsing voltage fluctuations.
2. The pre infusion with the PID. I stopped using mine after realizing that when the pump shuts off to allow the puck to soak, the three way valve kicks in and the not fully soaked or compressed puck allows a lot of grounds to puke out the three way. There is a video where someone has a see through portafilter and you can see this. It also explains the grounds I kept finding in the drip tray.
Thanks again for a great video.
Hi Todd, You are welcome. Thanks for your comment and sharing your experiences!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc. I found the video with the clear portafilter. You can see the puck expand and the grounds/fines floating in the water around the puck. As the shot runs longer, the water becomes clearer as the floating grounds/fines find their way into the puck. As I said, this is why when the PID shuts the vibe pump off in the SIlvia for "pre infusion" it pukes too many grounds through the screen and 3-way vs a slow pressure ramp or a constant pressure. You can see the puck expand after the pressure is gone which also shows why if you have a lot of headspace you can get a good extraction but still have semi soupy pucks. I have more head space on the Silvia using a larger IMS basket because I haven't modded the screen screw and the factory one cracks the freshly tamped puck.
Video Link:
ua-cam.com/video/7A-L00q5a1o/v-deo.html
Todd
just got a used Silvia which is more than awesome for good shots.still, i feel it has more potential than this. any tips/upgrades i can do before putting PID like a specific portafilter size/shower scree, etc., thank you
@@sabufinisher You should get the shower screen with the flush screw because the factory bolt is too big and cracks the puck causing channeling. You need a scale so you can eliminate the dosing variable. You need a leveler to eliminate the variable of getting crooked tamps. You need a BWT penguin filter for better tasting water with magnesium which makes hot drinks taste better.
Then get a PID.
Love the content WLL puts out, definitely a regular viewer here! Just wanted to say to anyone who recently purchased or was considering a vibe pump machine, don’t feel down after watching! I myself recently bought a vibe pump machine and got disheartened after coming upon this video right after opening the box haha. I really appreciate Mark’s attention to detail with controlling the variables, and I’m far from an expert myself, but I think the parameters were adjusted for the rotary pump machine and then kept the same for the vibe. I think the grind needed some adjustment, or that extraction happened to have some channeling issues (maybe due to distribution), but that was a really turbulent, splashy shot for the vibe machine. I get that energizing the PID might cause a little, but certainly shouldn’t cause that much inconsistency. So don’t fret, I can say first hand that vibe machines can pull shots with no macro bubbles and nice thick, rich crema. Also worth noting-the coffee used is a mixture of 50/50 arabica to robusta and robusta has a much thicker, more velvety crema than arabica. The shot on bottom looked like pure arabica based on the thin pale crema (not saying it was, just saying one or two parameters were definitely off to make it look that way) If you need reassurance on the abilities of vibe machines because you just bought one or were planning to, watch Whole Latte Love’s Basics of Espresso’s Key Measurements. I’m pretty sure that’s a Profitec Pro 500 with a vibe and in the video it’s pulling a shot that looks almost identical to the rotary machine in this video. Anyway, keep pumping out the great content, pun intended of course. I just wanted to help reassure people that vibes can pull beautiful, great tasting shots too!
I’m so glad I watched this right before I was going to order the Mozzafiato type V. Went back down the rabbit hole of learning and my Type R is on the way. Looking forward to plumbing it in.
Hi Austin, Thanks for the comment! You are going to love your Type R. I detest filling reservoirs so I'm with you on plumbing in. Also makes it much easier to do water filtration if needed with an inline system.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage next up, WANKEL-engined espresso machine 😤💪
@@GeorgeTsiros for the POWER DENSITY!
Thanks for making good video. That's helpful to see the differences of the pump.
Glad it was helpful!
Marc
Hiya Marc, Hi 5 on the rotary!! in comparison to the vibration pump..I have 2 machines too, a vibration and rotary and can cleary see and taste the difference!! My ECM rotary is from the reservoir for now and distributes the coffee evenly.Im sure when its plumbed in, it would even be better!.. Awesome video as always..
Well hey J, Thanks for the comment! Honestly not the result I was anticipating. Plumb that ECM and stop filling reservoirs!!!
Very nice comparison video, Thanks!
Hi Den, You are welcome and thank you for the comment!
Marc
So informative! Thank you Mark!!
Hey david, You're welcome - thanks for the comment!
Marc
Another great video from WLL! you guys have definitely pulled me down the rabbit hole! The majority of opinions I have read state that you can get the same quality shot from both types of pumps. It seems likely to me that you need to dial in a different grind for each machine to get the best shot, and maybe apply a different tamping pressure. What do you think? It would be great do do a follow up video comparing the shots after you have spent some time dialing in these variables.
Hi AF, Thanks for the comment. Sorry/not sorry to have pulled you in? You are correct, there are potential benefits for both pump types. Higher flow rates, longevity, quiet operation, plumb-ability for rotary pumps. Some like the slower build of pressure, lower flow rate and lower cost of vibration pumps. For sure more can be done with variables like grind size etc to better dial in shots for each pump type.
Marc
This is a great video. It is obvious the rotary make a smooth creamy shot. I’ve use both and the bubbles from a vibra pump were frustrating. A vibra can produce a good shot but rotary is consistent
Hi Clark, Thanks for the comment sharing you experience.
Marc
is the word vibration too long for you?
@@frerreror0cher it was, but four years later it’s not.
2 mins into watching: wow, free pressure profiling! who would've thought there's actually an upside to using v pumps!
3 mins into watching: wait a minute... what's up with the stark difference here?
4 mins into watching: rotary for life.
Hi A, Thanks for the comment.
Marc
Thats why profitec 500 vs 700 huge price diff
U pay wat u get
Great video, wonder if by installing flow control in a vibration pump machine can get the same results as a rotary pump?? Thanks
Hi C, Thanks for the question. The 2 main differences between rotary and vib pump machines are how fast flow/pressure builds up and general flow rate. Pressure builds up more slowly in a vib pump machine. Flow rates in E61 group machines with a stock mushroom valve are ~8g/s in vib pump and ~11g/s in rotary pump machine. With FCD installed on a vib pump machine you can simulate the faster flow/pressure build up of a rotary pump by closing the flow valve prior to starting the pump. This causes pressure to build in internal plumbing of machine. Keep valve closed for 5 or so seconds then quickly turn it open to get a rotary pump fast build of flow/pressure. The FCD can allow for higher than stock flow rates in a vibration pump machine so you can get a potential flow rate similar to a rotary pump. Depends on the machine, but you'll get ~11g/s flow rate potential on a vib pump machine with the valve opened about 1.75 turns. Hope that helps.
Marc
I had a Bezzera BZ40 for years, with a rotary pump. It had a gauge for pump/head pressure and it stuck like glue to the set point and kept that setting for years without change. I now have a Wega Mini Nova Classic (rotary pump and plumbed in) which I have had for 5 1/2 years. It only has a boiler pressure gauge but it bothers me not, as I know how stable the rotary pump machines are. I am surprised though that the pump type would make such an obvious difference. It may be that bubbles are caused by some sort of cavitation. Good video Marc, thank you.
Hey Grant, You are welcome for the video! And, Thank you for your comment. This is one of my older videos. I should mention that rotary pump machines have a potential flow rate of about 11g/s while most vibration pump machines do about 7g/s. Rotary pumps build up pressure faster as well which may get better extractions when working with darker roasted or older beans.
Marc
Very informative, I was wondering if you can do the same video with the Profitec 700 and the Profitec 600? As I am trying to decided which of the 2 to buy.
Hi AF, Thanks for the request. I'll see what I can do video wise. In the meantime... Main differences on machines and how they will affect your espresso. 700 comes up to brew pressure faster due to rotary pump vs. vibration pump in the 600, 700 is plumbable and 600 is not. Larger boilers in the 700. Both feature best in class steaming power. Both are available with flow control on the E61 group. Espresso wise: Very similar in potential quality only real difference is the faster rise to pressure and higher flow rate of the rotary pump in the 700. Depends on coffee used but very subtle differences because of that. Thing is you can cancel out those differences to a large degree if you get the 600 with flow control as you can allow the pressure to build and then open the flow valve and be very similar to the 700. You'll see a much larger change in potential quality by adjusting flow during an extraction with either machine. For more on that check out the video I posted yesterday using 5 different flow profiles on the Pro 700 (you can do the same on the 600): ua-cam.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/v-deo.html Hope that helps!
Marc
Great Video Marc. Very clear difference. Would having the machine with the rotary pump taking water from the reservoir make a difference in the extraction?
Hi Alawi, Thanks for the comment! There should be no difference - except when the reservoir runs dry!
Hi Mark how do we translate shot times recommendations from rotary to vibration pumps? most videos recommend shot times based on rotary pumps 25 seconds say. but vibration takes 7 more seconds or so to first drip. this means if a rotary total time from pump operation is 25 seconds a vibration is 32. donee try to drop the 32 or consider the 25 seconds is 32S for vibration pumps?
Hi KZ, Thanks for the question. A couple of things to keep in mind. First, timing is the most basic way of appraising an extraction. It gets you in the ballpark of a good extraction and gives you a reference. Do an extraction at 25 from 1st drip and taste. Then adjust grind to get the same volume (or preferably weight) out in 30 seconds and taste. Do you have a preference for flavor at different shot timings? I always use 1st drip to start timing due to the differences in ramp up between various machines. Also, you do not have to lock into a particular time. It's not unusual at all to have extractions go much longer. Especially if doing things like long low flow or pressure pre-infusions. With those you might not see 1st drip for 15 seconds or more and have the total extraction runnning more than 40 seconds.
Marc
Just wanted to know your input on running a rotary pump machine only with the water tank? For your experience does it decrease the lifespan of the pump? Keep reading post saying not to do that? Thanks in advance!
Hi Allen, Thanks for the question. We service a lot of semi-auto machines with rotary pumps. Never come across a decrease in lifespan based on reservoir vs. plumbed operation. Hope that helps!
Marc
03:10 thats definitely an issue that does not apply to every vibratory pump machine. The Giotto V has no real expansion valve, but only a bypass valve. (hence most shops say it has a fixed pressure of about 9.5bar)As the bypass is mounted directly to the outlet of the pump, this design is more prone for pressure waves traveling all the way to the group head respectively the coffee puck. Vibratory machines with real pressure controll via a expansion valve do not have these kind of problems or at least in a way minor style. Expansion valve controlled water lines, with return line are typically able to even out pressure variations. At least with my ECM Classika PID i've never experienced pressure variations during extraction, as soon as max. pressure (8.5bar in my case) is reached. I agree with the overall conlcusio though, that rotary pumps deliver more consistent pressure. After all, vibratory pump rely on the backpressure from the coffee puck to build up pressure, while the rotary pump just puts out the set pressure everytime and instantly.
bought the MZF rotary based on your video thx
Welcome!
lovely videos, hugs from brazil
Hi m, Thanks for the comment!
amazing comparison!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Marc
Hello, I have one question, but sorry for my not good english. Can i found any fulli automatic espresso machine with rotary pump?
Hi k, To the best of my knowledge there are no bean to cup super-automatics using rotary pumps.
Marc
Mark, what is the reason why vibration pump taking much longer to ramp to to 8bars while rotary pump does it instantly? Is it because the stock flow rate is 7g/s vs. 11g/s respectively?
Hi KN, yes, rotary pumps simply move more water than vibration pumps.
Marc
Very interesting information, I've always wondered about this issue. Did you do this a number of times and get the same results? I'm sure you took many practice tries to get everything ready. Was there any comment from Rocket? Did they expect the same results?
Hi PBH, Yes did 20+ on each machine - and that's not counting dialing in the grinder. Always got lighter more bubbly shots off the V machine. No comment from Rocket at this point but have not asked yet. We have people going to HOST show in Milano this weekend and will hopefully discuss get some feedback there. I think the pulsing may be related to 110 power, PID and slower response of OPV in V machine compared to pressure control within rotary pump.
Does it mean Evo R work with an external water line ONLY, but we can’t normally add water into it like many other machines?
Hi TP, Thanks for the question. The Evo R machines can run from external waterline or in machine fillable reservoir. Here's an in-depth look at Rocket Evo R and Type V PID machines: ua-cam.com/video/SaYFHhi-rek/v-deo.html
Marc
Hi Mark, is volumetric motore pump the same as rotary pump?
Thanks,
H
Hi Hamid, Did you mean vibration pump? 2 basic pump types in espresso machines are vibration and rotary. Rotary pumps are more robust - better built, longer service life than vibration pumps.
Marc
To answer your quastion: Yes, volumetric motor Pump is in this case the same as a rotary pump.
I am surprised how stark the difference was, the rotary pump shot looks far more appealing. Good video!
Hi Trevor, Thanks for your comment. I was honestly surprised as well. I've semi bought into a line of thinking that a slower pressure build helps swell the puck, reduces channeling and makes for a deeper extraction. That's not what happened in my tests.
Hey Mark! I have a Sage Barista 875 and definitely I want an upgrade. After doing some research I am totally in for a machine that (i) is dual boiler; (ii) has a rotary pump; and (iii) has flow control for the pressure. I have been thinking for a while on going for the ECM Synchronika (with the flow control add-on), and I know it might be quite a big jump from the Sage Barista but one that I would do only once, I believe. Your thoughts? I drink coffee every day and over the years I think I can taste the difference in quality so there will be ROI on this machine 😛.
Hi nico! Thanks for the question. As you may know the Synchronika is my favorite dual boiler prosumer level espresso machine. Build quality is at a much higher level than the Sage/Breville. It is a big jump, but as you imagine it's one you're only likely to do once. Using a separate espresso focused grinder will make a big difference compared to your current Sage experience. If you're into the process, I believe you will find more personal satisfaction using a beautiful, high-end, hand-crafted machine. The Synchronika can run for decades, will retain more value and is incredibly easy to work on if needed. It's definitely a more hobbyist level experience.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Thank you Marc!
@whole latte love
in your videos , you mention PID on numerous times, care to explain further..
Much appreciate...
Pid is a term found in the field of controls engineering and is an acronym for proportional, integral, derivative, what this means in this application is that there is a digital controller tightly regulating the temperature of the water so that it doesn't fluctuate above or below the setpoint. If you want to know more just lookup pid controller, there are many educational videos on youtube.
I got one with rotary and one with vibration, just the same...but you can do hundreds of shoots with rotary while so much less with vibration mind the wire windings became so hot unless we could figure something out to make it cooler
Hey TC, Thanks for sharing!
Marc
This deviation in brew pressure on the vibe machine would bug me...my older Rocket Cellini without PID does not show this behaviour at all. As for the comparison vibe vs. rotary I doubt that the results should be that obvious and would look for other reasons in this test Set up...several people did such comparisons too over the years and some came to opposit conclusions in regard to the shot quality.
Hi Ron, Thanks for your comment and sharing your opinion. We showed the results as they happened. As with anything espresso there are many variables involved. Not out of the question other variables effected the results. For me, the big difference in rotary vs. vib pump machines is the slower build of pressure at the start of the extraction with a vib pump. Different coffee varieties may react to that in different ways.
Is it possible to upgrade a rocket with a vibe pump to a rotary pump?
Hi Jimmy, It should be possible. Same frame and many of the same components like boiler etc in Evo R and V models. But internal plumbing is different. I think cost of additional components would end up being more than current price difference between a new V model and one with rotary pump.
Whole Latte Love Thanks. I ask because I have a Cellini Premium Plus V2 (without the PID). The Cellini line looks to be discontinued. Would be great if it is possible to retrofit the rotary pump with commercially available parts.
Not sure about the Cellini. If I had one in front of me to look at I'd give you an idea if there's space in the case. But I don't. Sorry.
Maybe its so easy like put more coffe or different grind size on the vibration pump machine for obtent the same result of the rotary pump machine. Why must be the same weight and grind size if they are different machines really, the exterior is the same but the heart is different and the way of pressure works of both machines are different. I think the vibration machine can make the same quality shots only change any variables. Im a huge fan of whole latte love, congrats.
Hi JC, Thanks for the comment. Good point! Making some dose and/or grind adjustments could help the vibe extraction. In this comparison the idea was to find out how the shots where different when keeping other variables consistent.
Hi Marc. I have an iberital new expression machine. Do you recommend starting the timer from first drip or starting the time when i press the button for extraction?
Hi TJ, Over the years I've gone to using first drip. Keep in mind shot timing is the most basic method of appraising a shot.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you for answering all my questions. Have good day!
Can i just install a rotary pump in a cheap home machine. Being careful of lines handling increased pressures?
Hi S, changing the pump does not change the pressure. Pressure is controlled on rotary pumps via a bypass screw. On vibration pump machines, pressure is controlled by an OPV valve. Vibration pumps can reach pressures similar to rotary. The real problem might be fitting a rotary pump inside cheaper home machines. They are much larger than vibration pumps.
Thanks for uploading such informative videos. This is really helpful for people who are looking to upgrade.
Would you be able to say whether a lever machine with line pressure pre-infusion produces an even better shot than the rotary pump?
Hi SVD, You are welcome and thanks for the question! When you say lever machine do you mean E61 group or a manual lever? If you mean E61 group, there are machines like the Profitec Pro 700 and ECM Synchronika which can do line pressure pre-infusion and have rotary pumps. If you mean a manual lever machine, I feel using the right coffee they produce some of the best espresso I've ever had. In most cases, a manual lever machine does not pre-infuse but pre-wets when the lever is pulled. A manual lever machine's real trick is a sort of pressure profiling. At the start of extraction pressure is high then gradually ramps down as the shot progresses.
Thanks a lot for the detailed response. I really appreciate it.
I meant a manual lever machine like the Bezzera Strega or the Profitec Pro 800. By the way, I seem to remember that you had a plan to do a comparison of these. :-) Looking forward to that. You mentioned somewhere that being able to do a line pressure pre-infusion (or wetting?) is a distinct advantage of the Pro 800, but apparently the Strega can be adjusted so that it can do the same.
You are welcome. I hope to do a compare soon. Also share an incredible demo I shot while in Italy a few weeks ago on a visit to the Izzo factory. Alex Izzo (namesake of the Alex Duetto machine) pulled some shots on a lever machine that blew my mind!
Marc
So, what you are saying, is that rotary machines are only available "plumbed"? I am surprised that at a $2,500 price point those machines still run vibratory pumps! The La Pavoni Pub is $3,000 and still has a vibratory pump, plumbed! So are there any reservoir tanked machines with rotary pumps?
M W many rotary pump machines can run from reservoir or plumbed. Like: ECM Synchronika, Profitec Pro 700 and Rocket R58
wow!!
Why bother buying 1500 $ machine to have a similar system as a 200$ one.......i love the whole latte videos for their fair and sincere review.
Hi Z, Thanks for the kind comment and question. So... The theory is the same in lower cost machines. What's not the same are things like temperature stability, steaming power, dosing amount - the list goes on. Think about this: Why would a cafe use more expensive machines if the same quality was possible from a $200 machine?
Whole Latte Love for sure....just hate the plastic in vibrating pump with all plastic pipes....i'll pay 3k just to get rid of the vibrating pump.
If it is not a blind test anyone would easily think the more expensive machine is better. Not to disagree with you but if you want to be more credible it has to be a blind test.
Hi Martin, Thanks for the comment and understand your opinion. I actually try to stay away from taste tests but in this video I'm certain the first comments would be "How did it taste?" I refrain from tasting because it's so easy to say just about anything. Have you ever watched a cooking show and at the end the food wasn't delicious? In this case a blind taste test would really have to be blind - like with blindfolds! Visual difference in the shots was striking.
Whole Latte Love yeah so wear a blindfold
@@Wholelattelovepage No need to use blindfolds! Just use colored ceramic demitasses and stir the espressos with a little spoon! For brew ratio accuracy, I think using a scale is a must rather than eyeballing with a measured glass. BTW, why WLL doesn't make more videos about manual espresso maker especially Flair? Many broke people (including) me wants to enjoy good (great is not necessary) espresso in a daily basis. I guess you guys just don't cater to cheapskates and broke people XD. Just kidding
Does anyone really use volume rather than weight to measure a shot? Problem is that an un even or “ faster flowing” shot, when using volume, would produce the same volume but have quickly dissipating crema and thin body when hitt8ng the same time...
Hi Ryan, I think there are many methods for shot measurement. Weight is used by many - especially at the high end. I have no data to back it up, but my impression is the average user is more likely to go with a combination of timing, volume, visual appearance and taste.
for me, plumbing the machine in, is a _negative_
i'd really prefer to be able to control what kind of water i use.
I highly suspect connecting it to water mains is an option, so it is ok!
The convenience though, is _undeniable_
Hi GT, So convenient! For excellent water and no scale solutions like the BWT Bestmax Premium are the way to go: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmax-premium-filter-package-w-besthead-flex
Marc
Why did you not measure exact water temp at each brew head? The HX PID does not secure identical water temp at brew head. Please redo for a reliable test.
You got a point here.
Already been tested in other comparison videos from WLL. The HX PID machines from Rocket and Profitec were right on the money with no flushing.
This is almost an argument AGAINST pre-infusion! Which kinda makes sense; pre-infusion, after all, leaves water sitting - and *cooling* - in the grinds. Water that is cooling as it sits there cannot be enhancing the extraction.
Hi GK, Thanks for the comment. I'm not overly concerned with water cooling during pre-infusion. Honestly, should not be much if portafilter is pre-heated - left in group when not in use.
Interesting test. Have a look at this shot from what appears to be an ECM Technika Vibration pump machine: ua-cam.com/video/5jfDV9le6AU/v-deo.html it seems to show a nice crema more resembling the rotary shot in Marc's test? I don't have any opinions on either pump as only have experience with a lever machine, any thoughts on lever shots resembling more rotary than vibration?
Oh great, now my search for a prosumer machine just got more expensive! Sheesh!
Hi FS, Sorry! So many options!!!
Rotary all the way ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Smooth tones!
The grind needs to be finer with the V pump vs the R as the V does a pre-infusion which will cause more puck expansion and break up.
I have owned a Quickmill E61 V machine for 12 years and I get shots that look identical to your R pump shots.
I am tempted to get a R machine just to plumb as filling the reservoir irritates the hell outta me!
Wish I could find out more info on Conti machines.
Hi CW, Thanks for the comment! I'm with you on filling reservoirs - they are always empty when I'm in a hurry! Plumbing in a machine is a life altering event.
Marc
Looks like channeling is happening with the puck on the vibration pump model. Suggest more testing with a naked portafilter. More than one test please! Differences in pump types should not have much of any affect of extraction.
Hi rick, I don't suspect channeling. I did 20+ extractions on each machine (went through a lot of coffee!) and each time I had the lighter extraction from vibration machine. You are correct, bottomless would show channeling problem but thinner shots were consistent. IMO it may be the vibe pump pulsing due to power issues. It may be affecting the particular coffee I was using. In Onur's comment below he says he has a V model and does not see the pressure pulsing when the PID energizes the boiler element. I wonder if he has a Giotto V without PID and if he is on 110V power. Maybe pulsing is just an issue on machines setup for 110V power?
I should have realized you did multiple tests! I've only seen that jumping around when channeling occurs. My machine pours evenly when the puck is done right so I would suspect the machine is not behaving in a normal fashion. The conclusion is somewhat ridiculous! Are we to conclude that vibration pump machines make weak coffee?
I don't think that's the conclusion to walk away with. If it's channeling then I had channeling on all the 20 or so shots I made on the vibe machine and none of the shots from the rotary. Perhaps the vibe is more likely to channel and the rotary is more forgiving? I think that's unlikely but it's possible.
Watching this just make me happy I went with ECM Classika PID, that vibra pump on Rocket is awful. I have never seen vibration like this.
Hi KZ, Thanks for the comment. Happy to make you happy!
Marc
Same for me. Never seen any pressure variation with my Classika PID during extraction. It slowly builds up pressure and stays at max set pressure until I put the lever down. I do not think it because of the pump, as all vibratory pumps a kinda the same. Guess it's ECMs more advanced expansion valve that helps with steady pressure.
too bad there's no company that has an option for a separate dedicated power supply or short duration battery to the pump.
Not defending vibration pumps here but the taste test should be blind and naked portafilters should be used to diagnose distribution issues. Also, watching this ua-cam.com/video/HjdaqUso6wI/v-deo.html and things are now confusing.
Hmmm...I find this informative and frustrating all at the same time. As a Single boiler owner, looking to upgrade to a HX, the Profetic Pro 500 had checked all the boxes that make it worth spending just under 2k - e61, PID, ability to steam / brew simultaneously. Now in essence, your rendering every machine without a rotary pump as a sub par espresso experience. It’s another expensive variable you need to achieve “great tasting shots”. While I know this was not the objective of this video, it’s pushing consumers to feel compelled to spend in the 2k-3k price range. So this has kind of tamped (pun intended) my enthusiasm for a new purchase. I may just add a PID to my Silvia for now and add some stability to that experience.
Hi Christopher, Love the pun! Dissing vibration pumps was not the intention. Pointing out differences was. Rotary pump will definitely last longer and is quieter. But you will find some users who prefer a vibration pump as they ramp up to full brew pressure more slowly. Going from a single boiler to a Pro 500 will be a life changing upgrade. Pro 500 PID is among our best selling machines in the category at the moment. Don't feel you have to have a rotary pump! Also read the P500 owner reviews hear if you need some convincing: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-500-pid-espresso-machine
Marc
me to just seen this after finding a profitec on german site for £ 1250 thought it ticked all the boxes. but I think the profitec is a superior beast to the rockets
Totally unrelated, but it has to be said...
I just got back from the States for a week holiday and you have a lot of work to get real coffee in the heads of Americans. The crap they served almost everywhere is just scary...
Hi JG, Any chance you were on holiday in Austin? Anyway I agree. The easiest way to get a decent espresso is to have your own equipment and do it at home.
Whole Latte Love You guys rock !! Florida was a real coffee-disappointment, milk way too hot, no microfoam and don’t even get me started on Starbucks with the S of Satan... In Austin I would have definitely visited Franklin BBQ 😊.
It seems that you didn't evenly distribute the grounds. And according to the results, I can say that R model's puck is more evenly distributed than the V model. I've got vibration model, and pressure is building and stops on 9 bars and not moving back and forth like yours. It's stable on rotary because it's constantly making same pressure and you can't see distribution errors on that model. You should remake the test for just results, and you should do more tests than one and use a distribution tool.
Hi Onur, Thanks for your comment. I did 20+ shots in each machine and had lighter shots with the more bubbly crema on all of them on the V machine. Sorry I didn't show them all but it would have made for a long and boring video! Anyway, Given the same dose in the PF and same grind size one would think that channeling would have caused a shot to come faster. Shot after shot in my tests they came at the same speed on both machines. Curious, is your V a PID machine? Is your power 110V?
Yes, I've got Giotto v2 PID, and it uses 220V. It's good to hear that you made a lot of shots. You know that same baskets even from the same brand can result different. Therefore, they invented something like VST baskets for stability between baskets. I recommend you use baskets from VST if you insist on same grind size.
Thanks for the reply! I have a suspicion the pulsing pump pressure is related to my machine running on US standard residential power of 110V 60hz. Pulsing coincides with the PID energizing the boiler as shown by the dot in the PID display. As for the VST baskets... Good idea although I'm trying to stay stock with what was in the box with the machine.
Hi Marc. After some months, have you discovered why this might have happened?
This only proves Rocket makes bad vibration pump espresso machines. My ECM vibration pump espresso machine is not having such fluctuations in the pressure during the brewing. So.. case reopened!
Sad he didn't stir the espresso shots or remove the crema before tasting the espresso. The crema is the worst tasting part, so it would make sense the shot with all the crema at the top is going to taste worse.
I would not take it too seriously bottom line you have to pay much more for a machine with Rotary Pomp. For professional use, it makes sense to use a Rotary pomp. I'm an audiophile for over 50 years and this video reminds me very much of how they try to buy (upgrade) to more expensive HiFi.If you are happy with your Espresso don't border first look at your Grinder and Baskets before buying an expensive machine with Rotary pomp. I saw one clip where one of the coffee guys (The Real Sprometheus) make a comparison between a la Marzocco and Gaggia\ and the first espresso shot was much better with the Marzocco which was to be expected to be fair they did blind tasting comparison meaning they did not know which Espresso came from which Machine. Now comes the good part: to level a bit the playing field and upgrade the Gaggia a bit with Items which are widely available and not expensive and guess what? The second shot was better with the Gaggia Machine classic Pro than with the Marzocco costing 8 times more than the Gaggia. ( Admit the build quality and lifespan will be better with the Marzocco). So what that tells you? More expensive machines do not always mean super better expresso as so many parts play a role, Water quality, what recipe you use, quality of fresh coffee beans etc.
Some coffee roasters companies do a tasting with normal-priced Espresso machines and come up with very good Espressos. No disrespect to the Whole Latte Love Team but one should see the other side as well.
Hi Rl, thanks for sharing your thoughts! As you move up in price machines you get more consistency, ease of use, increased capabilities, etc. I 100% agree one can produce excellent espresso on lower cost machines. It's just a little harder. Frankly coffee selection, grind quality and puck prep are more important than the machine to in the cup quality. I can tell you this: rotary pumps have higher flow rates than vibration pumps. In typical prosumer level machines like those from ECM, Profitec, Rocket, Bezzera it's ~11g/s. Vibe pump machines from those manufacturers run ~8g/s. Depending on coffee and other variables the slower build of pressure/flow of a vibration pump may be beneficial. On the other hand on most rotary pump machines it's very easy to control max brew pressure by adjusting the pump bypass. One can do the same adjusting the OPV on many vibe pump machines but not all and it often requires removing the outer case to access the adjustment.
Marc
Can you adjust for 'max brew pressure' via Flow-Control? @@Wholelattelovepage
This is the thing you have to think about the grind size and dose it has to be different for each machine... Honestly with minimoka 363 i pull out shots better than both of yours
Hi SN, Thanks for the comment. I'm sure you pull lovely shots! Funny you bring up grind size and dose. Check out this video posted last week. I pull 5 naked shots with slight grind size changes between each and use brew ratios to cut the shots: ua-cam.com/video/tSWgCNFoXMU/v-deo.html
Marc
I feel like he's yelling the whole time
A few obvious problems with your test:
1) the vibration model is showing strong signs of channeling in the puck. Although you couldn't predict that might happen, you should have conducted a lot more tests to eliminate channelling as a factor. Channeling would explain the difference in taste and texture from both samples.
2) you should have conducted a blind taste test, and preferably with people who did not witness the extraction or know what machines you were testing.
3) a single test proves nothing and is barely worth the time it took to watch.
4) anyone who applauds this test and the way it was conducted, is either thrilled that you "justified" their purchase of a rotary pump, or is looking for an excuse to upgrade... any excuse will do.
Hi Michael, Thanks for your comments. Agree multiple tests would be better. I did do a bunch off camera which had similar results. As for channeling. It's a possibility but with same coffee dose, same extraction time and same finished volume one would think a puck with channeling would have had more volume or have come faster. In retrospect I should have weighed the shots and derived an extraction ratio. I believe the weight in the shot from the vibe pump would have been less based on the larger bubble structure. I very rarely do taste tests in my videos. I did in this one as I knew I'd be asked and I gave my honest opinion. You are correct, a blind tasting would have helped. Personally I'm always a little suspect of taste tests. Rarely see a cooking show where the food is tasted and it's anything but delicious. In the end I think a huge difference between the machines was the oscillation in brew pressure on the vibe pump which coincided with the PID energizing and reducing power to the pump.
Thanks for the explanation. That you did additional tests with similar results is helpful to know. I suggested channeling due to the irregularity of flow (constrained and "squirty"). The subjective nature of taste tests does indeed limit their value, but prior knowledge does taint our impressions, honest or otherwise, so better to salvage what we can. The effect of PID activity on brew pressure is a curious observation. I wonder how the addition of dual boilers might affect these results?
You are welcome. All the DB machines I've worked with only energize one boiler at a time so I think the effect would be the same. Other thoughts... You probably would not see the brew pressure fluctuation on HX machines with boiler temperature controlled by pressurestat. It depends a bit were the boiler happens to be temp wise at the start but in most cases it's going to take .2bar pressure change in the boiler to kick on the heating element. If it does come on, it'll be on until the pressurestat senses a .2bar increase in pressure. It will not cycle on/off rapidly like a PID so any pressure drop from the pump will be constant. I wonder if the machine designers might include electronics on PID machines which prevents the heating element from being energized while the pump is on.
Too many variables to trust the results. I would have to see the tests done by someone who has no profit motive.
Hi APEX, Ah, espresso... so many variables! Did my best to control them. Understand your suspicion but just showing what happened. Spent 2 days on this and about a kilo of beans with very consistent results. Was not the result I expected. Really thought there was something to a slower build of pressure with a vibration pump. In this case, with this coffee not so much.
APEXracing2010 Profit motive? I'm sure they'd love you to buy anything, from a Gaggia Classic to one of these high end Rockets. I thought the video was informative, in the very least it makes you aware of the possibility.
Wow as Much as i love you guys and have been buying stuff from your site for many years but this video is totally bad. Ive had many vibratory machines and I also worked on many machine and all I can say is 9bars is 9bars! Your vibratory shot can't even be called a shot. It was horrendous and it just makes me angry cause the video just makes every vibratory machine crap. You might just as well say all vibratory machines are crap.
Hi Tony, Thanks for the comment. Hmm... I've mentioned in other videos how much I like the shots and an advantage of vib pumps over rotary in some cases. Specifically it was in regards to Expobar machines with vib pumps, a de-airetor and of course Expobar's E61 with the extra pre-infusion chamber milled in behind the shower screen. Those machines have a much slower build up of flow/pressure than a typical rotary pump E61. Depending on the coffee it can make a big difference and produce a better quality shot. In my experience very fresh and/or lighter roasted coffees benefit from the more gentle ramp up of flow and pressure. On the other hand, darker roast and older coffee tend to do better when hit harder at the start.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage ok that's what I taught. This coffee business can really drive some people crazy. I know it drove me crazy. Ever since I had this one espresso in a random restaurant I've been always trying to do it the same and till this day I'm still trying to get it the same.