Negative Self-talk could also be considered laziness - no? Ones natural Abilities contribute to the proficiency & learning time factors, which involves patience, without personal comparisons to others learning skills, like learning & playing proficient piano, the motivation is key. there is a proverb that says a mans stomach works for itself - meaning you learn how to make sustenance (food) because you are forced to eat to live. So fear can be a great motivator too! Fear over-powers self-talk... Fear also can reduce learning time and improve learning efficiency (proficiency = fluency / time).
Very helpful video. In my experience the biggest impediment to learning a language is perfectionism, which leads to an unwillingness or reluctance to make mistakes. At least that’s my biggest problem.
You're not alone! I have the same issue it helps sometimes that i wanna perfect everything I talk about in English it maxes my energy and stimulates my mind and confidence to keep pushing forward yet it takes a horrible time to shift a mindset while learning anything not only a language .. still trying Suttle it slowly accepting that I might make a mistake but I won't be allowed more than one or two
If perfectionism means not being allowed to make mistakes then it would be impossible for anyone to learn a new language. More likely just insecurity and general fear of not being good enough. A person who can't handle making mistakes should keep far away from language learning, or any technical skill, for that matter.
I personally find a non-native speaker who has learnt the foreign language the best teachers, because they understand all the mistakes, the lack of confidence and the need for patience, kindness and encouraging the learner. They have a literal understanding of the struggle and common misconceptions.
Thank you for this post about your experience. I have benefitted from having language partners who are non-native speakers. And I can now easily see how selecting a teacher whose first language is not my targetted one could also be helpful.
We definitely need more people spreading this message. Americans in particular have been told since I was young that: 1. After a certain age learning a second language is next to impossible, and 2. You will never be able to speak a second language fluently as an adult. Yet these people never seem to have an answer for why non native speakers coming to the U.S. often are able to do exactly what they are saying is impossible. This is especially head scratching when one keeps hearing that English is among the hardest languages out there.
They mix with native speakers from day one and acquire the language. English is a language that also does not require excellent grammar to be understood. Our verbs are pretty straight forward too.
English is very easy to acquire at a basic level -- all Empire languages are (Chinese included). An Empire language that can't be picked up is going to find itself shifting to be easier to acquire. We're even seeing this right now in some of the English rules being casually dropped so we can get more Asians proficient -- like using learnings as a noun, or saying things like "what is the ask?" Things that would have gotten your hand slapped by nuns not so long ago, now common and accepted.
"1. After a certain age learning a second language is next to impossible." I am not bad at learning. You are just teaching it wrong! Let me elaborate what is the problem that I encountered, the resistance to learning that stems from adult instinctual aversion to con-artistry, scams, and deceptions.
Informative and encouraging interview. Just about everyone I’ve known who only speaks English has declared they’re incapable of learning another language. In the next breath, they then proclaim how amazing I must be that I became so fluent in French. And then they ask: How did you do it? My answer is bit by bit, and all the while giving myself the opportunity to learn without stressing over perfection. I recognise I have a gift for languages, but that alone didn’t make me fluent. It merely meant I was able to acquire French more quickly than others. I started learning French at age 15 in school, enjoyed it a lot, did well with it, and pursued an opportunity to live in a French-speaking country at some point. After high school I spent a year in Belgium, followed by four years in Quebec City at university. In both places, I held fast to one principle: minimise the amount of time speaking English, and maximise exposure and practice of French. Over the course of my first six months in Belgium, I became very fluent. In the time after that, it was all about improvement and mastery. Flash forward to today (40 years later) and my French is very nearly as fluent as my native English. That was my goal from the beginning, and therefore my approach was likely quite different from those whose aim is to become decently conversant.
Seven years ago I married a Filipina grandmother from Mindanao Philippines. I've spent most of the last seven years living in Cagayan de Oro City Mindanao with her. She is a polyglot, a fluent speaker of Bisaya (the Mindanao dialect of Cebuano), her tribal language Higaonon Binukid, Tagalog, Boholano, Hiligaynon, and English. As a young man, I'd studied French and Latin. I've been immersed in the culture and language here, and, as a result, I can communicate in Bisaya, and a little in Higaonon Binukid and Tagalog. I've concentrated on everyday speech, and the habits that native speakers have. I haven't concentrated on grammar. Over time, I've picked up the way that native speakers put their sentences together. The other thing I love is singing in the language. You can learn a lot that way. I don't worry if I make a mistake. Being able to think in Bisaya without translating back into English is something that I'm happy that I can do.
Dr Neubauer is an impressive find. She offered lots of source-hints and ‘what-to-look-for’ advice for the independent language learner. I really appreciate that. Thanks for the video.
The point of flashcards is not to memorize vocabulary (i.e. forever). It's to memorize words until the next time you see them, ideally in context. Vocabulary learning is pointless without other (preferably copious) input. But continuous input without targeted vocabulary learning is also rather scattershot.
Idk to me flashcards never work out because how do I know what flashcards to prioritize? I'll go through spurts of adding a ton of them to a list and then not being able to review often enough so they all, hundreds or even thousands of them, end up "due" so the list is useless. Or I won't feel like I need the list at all and I'll never review the ones I added. It's way easier to me just to wait to see them in context again. I think pre-Internet if you weren't in an immersion environment maybe flashcards were useful, but honestly, what is the probability that there are words you actually need that you won't be encountering in context frequently enough to remember? And why not just engage with more content related to that context if you need to make sure you don't forget the words? (All this said, my ability to remember vocab is way above average and I couldn't develop a daily review habit to save my life but can binge content so maybe it depends on the person.)
indeed flashcards were very useful in my learning of Japanese. But on the other hand I have never used them to learn English (although at the beginning I did memorize vocabulary without Flashcards but in a targeted manner. But really only in the beginning). But I also don't think I'm acquiring any new words in Japanese now ever since I stopped doing flashcards... Based on my experience though I agree, targeted study of vocabulary based on rote memorization was the key to acquiring critical mass of my vocabulary in any of the languages I have studied. Never doing it not even once throughout the whole language learning journey sounds like a receipt for extremely long vocabulary acquiring process.
@@jamesdewane1642 meh, I was typing it on a mobile phone with swiping, which sometimes inputs incorrect words. Must have flown under my radar while typing.
You're a very good interviewer. You guide the conversation, then let the subject say what they want to say. You keep it about them and their responses instead of being about you and some agenda of your own. Dr. Neubauer was an excellent choice for for an interview.
Great video! People are quick to be intimidated by Chinese/Japanese due to the characters, but in my personal experience learning Japanese for 4 years, Dr. Neubauer is absolutely right about associating sounds/pronunciation to meaning first and then trying to associate that meaning to a character. I started out mostly by just listening to Japanese through anime, dramas, and conversations with no care about trying to learn Kanji at all. Once I had reached an intermediate level in conversational Japanese, the moment I started consuming written content, my brain just absorbed the characters like a sponge honestly. Obviously I still forget certain kanji now and then, but you can't be too hard on yourself about it. Anytime you learn something over again, you will remember it for longer and longer. I also believe that many people in the language learning community (especially with regards to Japanese) are far too adamant about using Anki or some other form of hard spaced-repetition training. I have not used Anki a single time while learning Japanese and am quite confident I could read 99% of words in a Japanese newspaper. Just as was stated in the video, the most pleasurable and meaningful way of acquiring words and character knowledge is by seeing the words in context from whatever material you are reading. Language learning is all about taking baby steps to complete a marathon. It is going to take a while to get to the finish line, but even a baby can make it if they keep on walking.
I am a language teacher and a learner. As an adult learner I personally find that I speak way better than I understand listening to people talk. Mainly because they don't talk at the level of my competency. The issue is that parents modify their speech to the needs of the child. Adults are expected to just be able to handle it. As a teacher working mostly with 9 and 10 years, native spanish speakers learning English, I talk to my students utilizing my classroom form of 'motherese' which gives my students time to hear and intuitively reflect. Similar to how adults talk to little children. Age appropriate. Ultimately it is the responsibility of the communicator to make themselves understood, not the listener. If my students don't understand me, it is my fault, not theirs. I started to learn Spanish by listening to children's stories and reading children's books. Find a level and start there. While it is important that responsibility lies with the communicator, as the listener, we also need to tolerate not understanding everything, let some things go without needing to know why. The more we experience something in meaningful communicative context the more the meaning emerges from inside us. Language is effectively an agreement between people that utterances (etc) have established meanings and context will guide us to it through repeated exposure. This is why we easily remember words we use a lot but words we use rarely we often have doubt over the exact meaning (even in our native langauge)
While I appreciate the sentiment and part of me agrees with it, I have to say that as a language teacher and learner myself, I hesitate to agree that it is the communicators responsibility to make themselves understood and not the listeners to understand. Maybe it's due to the different demographics; I teach almost exclusively adults, and many of them constantly complain that native speech is too fast, saying that one particular native speakers accent is ridiculous, or otherwise just putting down native speech in one way or another. Come to think of it, not only regarding natives, but also proficient second language users. I actually try to impart the exact opposite on students; when I learned Portuguese, Spanish, German etc., the onus was on me to get a grasp on native speech. That entails everything, from pronunciation to idiomatic language use to "strange" grammatical forms and all the rest of it. Otherwise, I would get completely lost listening to natives speaking to each other and, of course, I wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell to converse among natives. Likewise, if one of my students is trying to have a conversation with some native speaking people and can't understand, in my mind it's much more in their interest to work on their comprehension as opposed to constantly asking the natives to slow down which, whilst that is of course fine for beginners, actually begins to grate on many of those natives and leads to a less enjoyable time using the language. Also, I know from my own experience that when you ask people to slow down or otherwise adjust their speech, that can actually produce some pretty negative reactions and makes it really hard to connect to the people and culture beyond surface-level touristy "order a drink at the bar" level of language. All of that said, I do completely agree that learners shouldn't get bogged down in trying to learn and understand every single last piece of language, and I do try to show my students to have some tolerance for not understanding everything, though I have found that to be a real struggle with some students as it seems to be drilled into them from a young age that they must strive to 100% understand every last morsel of language they're presented with. Just some thoughts.
@@Tommat194 I’m also a language learner and a teacher of German, English and Japanese and I agree more with this opinion. And as a teacher I too am prone to long and impassioned posts ^^. Native speakers and learners who get lots of comprehensible listening input generally have better listening comprehension than speaking ability, because their active vocabulary is smaller than their passive one. This is a fact. However, in some cases language learners don’t get enough listening input. English classes in Japan are a prime example. Because students language ability is limited to what they themselves can produce, and because they don’t practice enough listening at native speed, their ability to speak is generally better. For beginner language learners this is also generally true, because they haven’t listened enough yet. Having said that, when teaching beginners, I believe that speaking slowly and making sure students understand is part of your job. In some cases people can only hear the sounds of a language once they’ve learned how to produce them. For those who are interested, “The Language Podcast with Richard Simcott: Nailing Pronunciation in a New Langauge” is informative. However, once students get used to the speed and sounds, it’s also important to say it at a native speed. As a learner, I think it is your responsibility to get more exposure outside of the classroom through language exchanges, etc. Your teacher should also know good resources for comprehensible input to do on your own, preferably at native speed or with a faster option. Nowadays people are transitioning from using training wheels on bikes to making bikes with lower seats so that children can easily touch the ground. This is better because children can retract their feet to simulate actual riding. Language teaching and language books must also transition to more real-world use.
6:38 I couldn't find any teacher advertising comprehensible input lessons in my target language. so I sent messages to several teachers and explained exactly what I wanted. I tried a few different teachers, and one in particular was amazing. I actually sent her a couple videos from Dreaming Spanish to show her what I was hoping for, and she nails it!
In general I agree. A couple of points. Many textbooks and graded readers present language examples that, while not incorrect grammatically, do not reflect real usage, either in structure or vocabulary. For example, in a sentence where book needs to be the first element, English will write, 'A book was written by Simone.' Lithuanian will write 'A book wrote Simona.' (with appropriate endings showing that Simona is the subject). Thus, starting with authentic texts avoids wasting time with inappropriate and misleading information and also introduces a suitable syntactical and word frequency from the start. A second point is that grammar is extremely complex if you get down to the nitty gritty. Elementary grammar is a huge simplification. Thus the aim of the latter is to impede the user as little as possible. To spend 6 years learning French grammar without reaching any complexity is insane, but that is what we did in school. Better to spend a day or two on grammar so that it can be recognised and let the grammar seep in through using authentic texts. Obviously, I prefer reading to speaking because a. I have all the time in the world to study each sentence and b. there is no need to respond until I have a sufficient vocabulary base. But, it should be noted that spoken and written language can be very different and so a different method might be better for a person who prefers learning orally. She is spot on on tones. First, I learn the basic pronunciation and then the accent. Meaning is not conveyed by accent (or in Chinese, tone) alone but also by the letters and the context. Thus, if I say 'I cooked supper,' but pronounced cook as kook or kuk, the listener still understands me and his response using the correct pronunciation of cook will help correct my pronunciation in the future. It is only without context that it becomes unintelligible, like 'Eye kooka'. The best way to learn vocabulary is foreign to native because you encounter the foreign in a discernable context but to learn the six foreign translations of 'table' lacks that context. I obviously believe in diving not into the deep end but straight into the ocean, but with a flotation device to keep me from drowning.
Very interesting how many different factors influence the language learning process. You notice right from the start of the interview that Dr Neubauer is not just a scholar but also an active language teacher with lots of practical experience.
Hey Matt Congratulations on a brilliant interview. Dr Neubauer was so insightful, articulate and passionate - a genuine pleasure to listen to. I am currently ‘acquiring’ Thai so the subject matter was particularly relevant ( especially re tones and characters) Thanks again Tom
The read along comprehension stories on youtube have been more helpful to me in learning french and spanish than any tool I have ever used. If I had had them from the beginning, I would easily be fluent by now. It is the same concept that we used as little kids with our native languages: our parents read to us as we read along, sounding out the words. SO helpful in speaking/reading/writing and comprehension of the spoken language! And there are hundreds of them on youtube!
@elaineporter182 For french, the french converstion videos of Tarik Elamari called 239 Dialogues en francais are great. If you put that in, the algorithm should offer you a lot more. For spanish just put in the search bar conversaciones en espanol para aprender....a whole bunch should pop up. I like that they are not boring like textbooks. Good luck!!
I imagine they would...I have never studied german. Maybe put "gesprachs in deutsch" in the search bar of youtube or whatever the word for dialogues is?@@clivelinton7657
It's very cool to come across this thoughtful discussion about how to study Chinese. I've been studying Mandarin for six years now. A year ago I wrote an album of songs in Mandarin and went to China to try to figure out a way to promote it. They are on my channel. For me it has been helpful to have project-oriented goals, that then naturally lead to new projects. I also postponed really learning characters for a very long time, instead prioritizing speaking and comprehension. 加油 everyone!
I really appreciate the content you're making! It's so important to platform ACTUAL researchers/experts in SLA rather than self-proclaimed youtube polyglots.
She seems to be a very inspirational teacher, its always a pleasure watching someone who has really thought about their subject very deeply and can express it so well. I must admit I have always thought that its better to study by yourself to get to a higher level, and only then engage with a teacher to push up to fluency. She makes a very persuasive case for having a teacher from day one - but of course finding someone who does it well is always going to be a challenge.
Always the way. I do think there is a social element which can be helpful. Learning on your own without any interaction in the language might feel lonely for a lot of people. I've had some absolutely fascinating discussions in some classes which can be really motivating. Crosstalk is great here too to get started early
I think the most vital ingredient of being able to learn a language is motivation and necessity....then sort of 24/7 exposure to that language...one can find a million different text book approach how to get the basics down,but learning is hard...at the end of the day you have to memorize basic words and expressions,you have to understand the structure of grammar....then the more success you find by interacting with others the more you want to learn....
Thanks Matt and Dr. Neubauer - I taught English in South East Asia and now I am learning Italian and find making a youtube channel on the target language helps me push forward to learn a new language. Thanks for you great video.
Great video. I am a non native self taught speaker of Portuguese and I now teach Portuguese to foreigners. British people seem to struggle more than other europeans thought. I think this has something to do with the fact that they think they can't learn. As a non native speaker I have the ability to transmit the language to them in a different way. I understand their plight. In my teaching we use a lot of role play and dialogues. The idea being, if they practice enough they will learn how to order in a restaurante for example. I try not to focus so much on the grammar at the beginning, as I find that this scares people a lot. We ease into it gradually. As Matt said, children when they learn how to read and when they learn about grammar, can already speak the language. Much of what they already know is instinctive. When I learned I actually found that i used a system of recognition and formulas - it worked really well for me. Verb ending for regular verbs for example....I couldn't believe how logical and easy it actually was. Learning the verb endings for one verb meaning that I then knew hundreds of other verbs. I agree with the focus on sounding Native - this seems to be an 'Native English speaker thing' - we should remember that Italians when they speak English have an accent, so do French. It is no big deal having an accent as long as it is comprehensible.
Re speaking like a native speaker - be careful about which native speaker you model yourself on - innit! There are many you wouldn’t want to sound like.
I've never imagined that I would enjoy discussing the subject of learning a language while searching for some videos on UA-cam to learn a new language.
What she first mentioned about the difference in learning a new language for children and adults is the difference in the brain's learning system. You have the declarative system (conscious) and the procedural system (unconscious). In children the procedural system is at its top, weakening by becoming older to give advantage to the declarative system. It is advisable to confront young children with two languages as they will benefit from it later. It does not surprise me that she doesn't really know how neurological learning happens, during my studies not ever a teacher explained to me how to study and what happens in the brain. I asked many teachers to explain me the process - none could and that is astonishing.
Good video! I learn at home by listening at a comfortable speed for me. Listening to stories, conversations but also attending 2 hour grammar lessons once a week. It's both for me.
I can relate to many points in this video. I'm fluent in Japanese (been using it more than half my life now), but there were a few things that made/make it very hard to say get to a more 'native' level (or even to get fluent took more years than expected). 1. The Social aspect you mentioned...many Japanese people I encounter randomly from either language exchange sites or real life in Japan will judge me on appearance first (normal since I'm not Asian and 98% of population or more is Asian so it's kinda like wtf to some people) and assume I don't know Japanese. And if I do know it it takes new people days or even weeks/months to get used to that I am in fact speaking Japanese (so if it's just a one time encounter the conversations will be exactly the same each time "you know Japanese""why" etc, then it ends). It's like some Japanese-people bug-out/glitch-out like a computer error or something and it takes them more time to adapt. And of course they are super supportive of beginners and at that stage they would mainly say "nihongo ga jyouzu desu ne" or you are so good at Japanese, in after you just say "konnichiwa" or a simple greeting that people sometimes know that they haven't even studied...so finding people that would get used to me or be willing to speak in Japanese when I was a beginner was hard just because the misconception of a foreigner not knowing the language is just so high it makes them hold back always, and even some people try to use English even if you are fluent in Japanese. So because of that issue and how much I studied the language my pride was too high, and I would even avoid some teachers since most teachers weren't teaching me anything new, but stuff 'foreigners probably don't know' and it's hard finding someone that really adjusts to my level even though I have over the years. But eventually many of them said "you don't need lessons, I learn more from you than you do from me lol" or something like that, and then it's been a frustrating experience after getting to a fluent level 10-15 years ago. I probably will have to go back to get a teacher again or wait for AI to become native-like, just because it's easy to not challenge myself in the language and get lazy, just because I'm not going to have enough positive stimulus or conversations overall. A lot of Japanese people judge on AGE too (won't talk to people few years different sometimes and most are in their 20s on apps), and it could be 6 months+ before somebody actually talks to a 37 year old like me on an app like Hellotalk. Being in Japan was the best experience though, although I almost died there I did get to use Japanese in the hospital and talk to doctors for dozens of hours and learn lots of medical terminology, that was one of the best experiences of my life (I didn't use any English at all in Japan), and knowing the language SAVED my life! they said they wouldn't have sent the ambulance if I didn't know Japanese cuz they didn't have translators/interpreters working at the time. So in a way I'm glad I knew the language, but I feel from too many negative social interactions and not really getting true friends kinda messed me up a bit. But I still enjoy Japanese entertainment. TLDR: The social element is extremely important for fast progress/motivation to keep it up/prevent you from going insane. (Depending on your reason for studying the language, I wanted to marry Yamato Nadeshiko (The ideal Japanese woman)/have a family/have a job in Japan and everything, but that was just a pipe dream) Nowadays I'm gonna take a step back and redefine my goals/meaning for why I'm using this language so much lmao
I gained so much from this podcast! Now I want to implement some of the suggestions shared. Is there anyone else here who is learning either Swahili or Czech? Would love to have non-native speakers as language exchange partners.
Insightful details about the mechanics of language learning. I enjoyed the interview. Very helpful. Definitely will do the UA-cam read-alouds. Thank you.
You must be blessed. That's not true for everyone. When I was a child, nothing was good enough. My family and teachers would say how dissatisfied they were with me and compared me with my peers if I don't do well in sports, courses etc. But my parents still provided a roof over my head and food. And I might get some person/stranger who is sympathetic towards me how poorly I get treated because i was a child. But now as an adult, same problems but the stakes are higher. If I don't get a career/job or make enough money, I can't pay for food and shelter. Nobody cares if I don't get hired or get layed off and I can't pay my bills. Nobody cares if I'm struggling. Everyone don't care if I fail or not because I'm not child anymore. I find most people aren't nice. Everyone is all for themselves. Family only want me to make money for them. Life sucks. 😢
@@SnowS162 I think he meant, as a kid, anything is good enough for the kid, as an adult, nothing is good enough for the adult because as kids we are better at accepting things as they are whereas it's more difficult for most adults to just accept things as they are
Many learning resources before were awful; I was overwhelmed learning another language as a child by myself, there was no support to learn the language. Now as an adult I have more confidence, I am for myself and help my family, I learn a language with many resources in the internet and have a certain amount of control over what I use my time for. I think it is a matter of perspective, nothing is prefect in the end, but we can try to clear a path for ourselves if we have the determination to fight for ourselves and what we want for ourselves. Mindset is a game changer.
Late to this one, Matt-my apologies! Glad to see you’re still getting experts involved in the conversation. I’m learning even the best methods have some room for improvement. It’s also good to hear there’s still no replacement for consistency with time spent in the language. Looking at you, Duolingo!
💯💯 knowing a bit about formal logic and how the logic behind language gets translated into formal logic (imperfectly), I can imagine that formal grammar is similarly imperfect at capturing the living language.
A really interesting interview - thanks to you both. I agree with Dr Neubauer about grammar, which I used to regard as very important but I now think that being familiar with common sentence structures is more useful. I also don’t think that flash cards are useful or interesting. But, to be honest, I now see grasping tones as very important when learning Chinese. I know that I will never sound like a native speaker but I have found that speaking with the correct tones is essential if I want to be understood. Thanks again.
yeah she is dead wrong about tones.. the main problem with tone learning is that students are not taught the way people actually speak. and this isn't reinforced by needing to properly produce the tones to be understood by natives. I don't think it takes long to learn, but i think it's completely ignored in instruction
This makes me feel better. I teach Spanish. Language acquisition through comprehensible input. After two years, my students were talking pretty well even though they would get confused with some conjugations. However, that’s not a big deal because the message came across enough to keep a conversation going.
As a native Chinese speaker, I can speak English pretty well, I can understand your conversation without difficulty. Now I'm trying to learn French, that's why I'm listening to your video. Chinese is vastly different from English and French.
The key to a language is often in the cadence of its sounds. Coming from a different language is terrifying because our current aural expertise simply cannot cope with that sound barrier. So we tend to obsess about grammar and vocabulary. But if we instead listen to the foreign cadence of sounds, finding a new personal resonance with those alien utterances, we build ourselves a strong framework that allows us to emote and express in a rich new world. Take each new phrase you learn and say it, yell it, sing it in as many ways as you can to Google translate. If GT can understand you, then 👍🏼. Learn sounds with all your heart first. Vocab and grammar then follow easily.
One way to master tones is to listen to a phrase, then think of an English sentence that mimics the “up and down” sounds. For example, say “I think so” and notice the intonation. Now you are aware of the stressed and unstressed words, match an English phrase with the Chinese tones.
I started my language journey in the mid 1970’s. We had a family friend from Colombia. I ask him what was the way I could learn Spanish. He suggested finding Spanish language books and get a Spanish-English dictionary and look up all the words. It was very tedious but it worked. When the internet came along I was able to expand my knowledge by watching Univision and other Spanish language Television. Thank goodness learners do not have to do what I did. But foreign language was not even taught in our public schools. That was it ( translating books)other than buying records. I have traveled all over Latin America and Spain and I have had no problems conversing with the native population.
I'm thinking of trying to offer conversation classes and this is great advice. I would 100% use comprehensible input and teach thngs in context. The only thing I would do different is actually using flashcards but only custom-made as extra help to understand a specific dialogue/story/movie scene etc. Also AI can be a great tool to create content more effciently if you know how to ask for it
I compare students studying vocab books like "800 Essential Words" as an exercise of memorization and not a language process; it is instead comparable to memorizing numbers. Only when the words are used in the linguistic context of communication (speaking, listening) do they become a part of the language.
11:48 Yes to taking a break! I had a year between work stints in France and I was *shocked* at the integration that had happened; many things came much easier. Very interesting to hear that this is actually a thing.
How long do you think it takes to reach advanced levels if you live and study full time in your target language ? One year should get you fairly advanced. In my experience breaks don't contribute to progress, not one bit. You can read my story below. I had spent 7 years learning a second language the conventional way, some in school and some as individual hobby. And even though i did well in school, realistically my final level was barely a beginner. ( A1-A2, as was confirmed by a comprehensive test) Then as a 19 year old i was a part of this experiment. I was placed in a foreign military academy with very strict guidelines. Foreign students were only allowed to use L2 (second language), any use of native language wasn't allowed, it was absolute 100% immersion environment 24/7. (Kinda similar to Middlebury Language school or French Foreign Legion approach) And even though i was already an adult, i learned a second language to a near native level within a year. I could physically feel the development of a second language. After 3 months i was thinking in L2 full time, i had near native listening comprehension in 6 months. And obviously i wasn't studying a second language exclusively, I was learning science, engineering, humanities, doing sports. I was having a rich learning experience while acquiring a second language at a rate that seemed magical. There are very important conditions that allow adults to learn on par with immigrant kids. One condition really. Temporarily abstain from native language and dedicate all the remaining time to a second language. Regarding deliberate study of grammar. Nobody was teaching me any of that. Well, I had a tutor for a few sessions, but then a school decided to forgo tutoring because our progress was too fast to keep track of. Yes, our progress, because there were 5 of us. And we all exhibited remarkable rates of improvement. We were separated to different battalions (dorms) and we weren't allowed to communicate. As far as explicit knowledge of L2 grammar, I FORGOT everything I knew as a beginner. I ACQUIRED grammar the same way native speakers do and I was reasonably grammatically correct. A Grammatically correct sentence SOUNDS right, incorrect sounds funny. I don't know any of the textbook grammar explanations. That being said, studying L2 grammar ENTIRELY using L2 when you are more advanced could be a USEFUL tool, though not entirely necessary. Studying L2 grammar (or vocabulary) using native language is a colossal waste of time.
Many people don't believe that Chinese as a spoken language is actually one of the easiest languages to learn, it is easier than many European languages and even Japanese because the grammar is simple. Probably the easiest language to learn is Indonesian because unlike Chinese, it uses the alphabet system. What I meant be learn is to be able to converse with a native speaker, perhaps speak like grade school level. Not to take anything away from Dr NeuBauer. The thing about tone is some people will never master it but doesn't matter because even in English in sounds different in different regions but most of the time there is context in every sentence and people will understand.
[in my other native language, AAE] C’mon somebody! She laid out the blueprint. If the lady that teach the thing say go do XYZ , why try to be smarter than the teacher? Oh my god, it was like it was laid on my lap. I’m playing at, I’m doing a lazy model of comprehensive input for Mandarin daily but I was waking up feeling adrift. I was dabbling in it all. This video just solidified the role of each part of my study. Can’t thank ol’ girl enough. Also I’m a big fan of the learned. Dr. Diane Neubauer just revolutionized my life! Girlfriend laid it down now! All jokes aside, Dr. Neubauer was the first person to explain the concepts of language acquisition as an adult. And the concept of distance not difficulty. Coursera has free courses in Mandarin. After I passed my first test in all Hanzi, I said alright now. I had proof that all you gotta do is want it. It’s a marathon not sprint like everything else in life. I am on top of the world from this video. Much obliged.
I find that native material and native speakers are the best models or references, although not necessarily teachers. Whatever you can do to supplement your listening and reading with material by and for native speakers, it’s helpful so you can hear that natural speech.
Interesting, but my findings are the opposite. Diane seems to be a serious researcher, so I’m listening to her carefully. I suspect most of the research (at least what I’ve come across in my reading) is on the wrong track and I can’t understand why. My research is arguably more anecdotal and certainly not as robust as comparative studies with large numbers of learners. The approach that seems the most effective in my experience is kind of the reverse: 1. Reading + accurate pronunciation (by reading out loud). 2. Producing questions and answers in a colloquial setting (by reading out loud). Grammar on a need-to-know basis. 3. Understanding (written) conversations, memorizing role plays, songs, conversational texts (like romance novels), etc. - not children’s material, which is mostly irrelevant to an adult. Building vocabulary. 4. Listening to the material above, while following the text (e.g. closed caption or audiobooks). Listening again but without following the text. 5. Don’t bother with writing (viz. composition). It’s a different language, for advanced speakers and conversationalists only. (There is more nuance to this, but essentially, leave it for later.) I’ve named this the “repertoire” approach to language acquisition.
Could you tell me why you prioritize accurate pronunciation, and is that for Thai? I teach English, and it seems that accurate pronunciation creates more comprehensible input. Without an orientation to pronunciation, lots of vocabulary gets encoded in terms of the student's native language phonetics.
@@jamesdewane1642 I think it has something to do with the way connections are generated in the brain. The "muscle memory" that comes with accurate muscle dexterity somehow feeds into (what I call) the "inner ear". The way we hear (and see) the world is mostly by recreating the noisy and very incomplete "input" from the ears (and eyes) by a process of filling-in-the-gaps, usually through anticipation and guesswork, based on prior knowledge. If you already have a solid knowledge and mastery of speaking the sounds then I think your brain can subsequently "hear" more clearly. English is really hard. It isn't consistent. So it's difficult to read texts phonetically. Other languages like Thai, Hebrew, Spanish, Italian and German are pronounced as written - making them much easier languages to learn. No, I try to avoid applying native language phonetics - unless the sounds are already identical. When learning a new language, it's important to learn the phonetics that do not exist in our native language, and to master them physically through slow, accurate, repeated, verbal pronunciation. The (physiological) mechanics of how to produce the sound matters most. Just listening to others speak won't do it, and you may end up learning to mispronounce words - because of mishearing the sounds in our inner ear - and end up with a permanent foreign accent (once your muscles have set like jello).
What strikes me is the very different definition of "fluency" most people have compared to me... I consider myself fluent in a language if I can speak, read and listen on a native level, with as little accent as possible. If you have any hesitation in speaking, reading or listening understanding of a language, you are obviously not fluent. It goes without saying you think in that language when doing these 3 things. Am I wrong?
you're wrong. do you know anxiety or ptsd? yeah, this stuff is the reason my brain shuts down with most ppl. even the smartest ppl aren't perfect, and I know I'm the minority when it comes to having a brain ^^
@@kalyasaify I can't follow your reasoning, why would anxiety or PTSD have any influence in the fact you are or are not fluent in a language? Yes it can hinder you learning a language, or speaking it, hence "becoming fluent" in a language, but I talk about "being fluent" in a language, and that is a definition based on knowledge.
Indeed. I agree with you. English is my second language and I grasp it, I understand it, I can read difficult books (though one book at uni broke me…staring at it on the shelf now…😩🙈), I can understand it spoken in almost any accent, and so on. During periods when almost everything I listen to and watch is in English I start thinking in English too. But I couldn’t possibly say I’m fluent in it. I’m fluent in my native language. Not in English. I’ve probably made some grammatical error, or expressed myself in a way a native wouldn’t, even in this short comment. Lol.
@@ChristinaChrisR this sounds very much like fluency to me, occasional small grammar errors are not an exclusion criteria IMHO. Because then you would have to call quite a few native speakers to be not fluent, and that in almost all languages😂
I was excited to learn about my role as a language parrot. So disappointed it turned out to be something else. I thought she was going to confirm a concept i made up, a little tongue in cheek. Primarily, teachers are Native Language Generating Devices. I start a class with whatever, then the whole rest of the time, I'm reacting as quickly and naturally as i can at a level that doesn't lose interest, interest being my proxy for comprehension. And i have to work in the target vocabulary and grammar and elicit whatever they're capable of doing... Language teaching is a hoot! A lot like coaching a sport.
Yeah, I would COMPLETELY disagree with the notion that grammar should only be studied in context and learning it outside of a context the textbook style way is the wrong way to do it. In fact, in my personal experience of learning 3 foreign languages(reaching C2, B2, B2 in them), the textbook way to learn the grammar seems to be the fastest way to progress ones learning process. For two of the languages, I've been learning them at school, so there I got the foundation in grammar the old school way. I've tried studying Japanese without studying grammar the textbook way and going at it with this comprehensible input, learning vocabulary and grammar in context and what not. After YEARS!!! of DAILY!!! effort (yes, I have been learning at least 15-30 minutes every single day for 5 years this way) of absolutely no worthwhile results (I couldn't hold a reasonable conversation in Japanese and I couldn't read any Japanese text nor understand spoken Japanese), due to wanting to pass certification levels, I have started learning grammar the textbook way. Only the grammar, actually at least I already had a good base in vocabulary thanks to my studying. That was finally the moment, where I was able to finally move from what was possibly A1-A2 Japanese to B1 and B2. In my experience of all the 3 languages that I have been studying so far, the textbook grammar study was an integral part of my language learning process and without it I'd never move on with my Japanese. Actually, most people who learn foreign languages do go through the textbook grammar study process. I don't have any numbers on people who only go the comprehensible input route, but I would guess, that most of them either give up completely, or anyway get help from textbooks every now and then to get them a step further in their language process. Most of the people who claim they have been learning by comprehensible input anyway already had a base of the language acquired in the traditional way. Or it must take much longer to be learning language that way. I'm not saying that consuming content in the target language is not helpful. Of course it is crucial to reaching high levels of fluency. That's the only reason I have achieved this level of fluency in English. But I would have never made it without the traditional study method, or at least it would have taken me significantly longer time.
I am very thankful that I never consulted youtube when I started learning spanish, because for whatever reason (maybe it’s my algorithm), youtube is littered with anti-grammar study propaganda. Incorporating an hour to two hours a week of concentrated grammar study propelled my spanish learning beyond what pure CI was able to provide.
Kinda pointless arguement, because almost no adults claim to have learned only by comprehensible input, without any instructions on sentence structure,, how to count, express emotions, and all the other things books and audio/video courses provide. No one is arguing that as an adult you can skip that part..what people are arguing is that you will never be fluent in a language by just studying grammar and textbooks.
@@alvodin6197 but that is exactly what she is arguing 😅 that studying grammar textbook style is not effective. Rather what nobody ever said is, that textbooks are enough. That was never said by anyone in the language learning community.
@@vyli1 Learning from a text book is a ROOKIE mistake. In fact, in the real world, people use slang. You won't even be able to hear the words you are learning. Listening is obviously the most important. If you can't even understand what they are saying, you can't respond, no matter how much vocab you know.
The United States is a wonderful place to learn languages, especially if you are in a City. You may progress through at least beginner-intermediate fluency in any language simply by locating events, shops, markets, or businesses with native speakers of your preferred language, and learning a few phrases. Then, GO AND INTERACT. Example: I can pick up a coffee each morning and speak some basic Arabic with the shopkeeper (my 4th language in progress). This kind of active practice will do wonders to expand your vocabulary and understanding, because it's REAL. Also, instead of being constantly chained to a book, screen, or the storm of your own mind that can take over in familiar places, this kind of practice pins a new location in your mind, and this extra dimension and extra color obviates much of the usual effort needed to rapidly recall words for any occasion. This is a very nice and informative video from the Professor - however, beyond the academic discussions, the easiest way to actually learn any language is not through theory, but through PERFORMANCE. Having said that, i'm no language expert and am not trying to contradict anything in her video (this is great stuff); i would only caution that I see this kind of extended information as merely the cherry on top of the dessert after the main course - namely the meat and potatoes of deciding for yourself what you will learn, then going out to do it ACTIVELY. This approach of course depends on your location, but it is very likely in the United States that most of the critical resources you need are ALL AROUND YOU IN PEOPLE - it's your choice whether or not to take advantage of the rich variety of culture and language we enjoy as a population. Cheers;)
i am learning mandarin chinese now. it is a lot of fun. learning to write hanzi is a lot of fun too especially if you like calligraphy! I was wondering if learning japanese would be a lot easier when knowing hanzi? I usually looked up the writing of both chinese and japanese
I studied Mandarin for a year. I did not find it difficult. But it's a very different language, and you will need to learn some new communication strategies. It's certainly going to take more time than learning French, where English has already borrowed quite a lot of French vocabulary, often more than one time for a single word. Learning to write all the characters by hand is laborious, but I think that's also true for the native Chinese during their school years. Having worked so hard to gain that skill, you do get more information on the page in the same amount of space. English is more compact than French, and Mandarin is more compact again.
"Way to actually learn a language" as opposed to "Way to learn a language" . What does "actually" mean in this context ? In other words, is there a difference between "learning" and "actually learning" ?
I understand English at native level and I use English every day at work, but I still make basic grammar mistakes in my writing, and in speech particularly with the use of articles and especially when I'm tired. I wonder if there is any way of breaking that fossilization after years of "malpractice"?
I have lived in Thailand for 7 years and can still barely put a sentence together. Even worse I struggle to understand what people say to me,as it is also a tonal language and I'm in Southern Thailand the dialect changes a bit, my husband does not help me, or VERY moderately rarely. I panic when people speak directly to me, I find it better to try and listen and if I hear a word repeated try to find the meaning, that is also problematic as there are various spellings. I will never be fluent but to understand those around me would be such a help and minimise my paranoia.
@@crush_override I began to take lessons, I paid for a year's school, but ended up attending for about 2 months, due to other study, husband, the bf taking me to his hometown for a month then getting a job. I personal study is very inconsistent. I'm currently back living in hubby's hometown and wish to ask his English teacher he had when at school if she can help me. I really need to understand more than speak. Inconsistency and finances are my biggest challenge.
My son knows many Thai words, does ok to communicate. He went to Thailand when he had R&R while in the Marines. When he got out of the Marines he worked contract jobs in Afghanistan and Iraq, he continued to go to Thailand on R&R. He made good Thai friends. He would like to live there one day. I was always impressed on the language he picked up just visiting.
There are courses on tones. If you start with that and then practice by reading subtitles and repeating out loud. This helps train your ear and so you can actually recognise the sounds that people are saying. That is the foundation. It will take perhaps around 4 months to get your ear in following a course and doing it 20-30 mins a day. And so you don't get bored you should also do an app to help expose you to vocab and sentences because the brain likes to construct. And then after those 4 months of doing those 2 things get yourself a tutor on Italki and they will then be able to guide you. You can do this 💪💪💪💪
Her point about the conscious and sub-conscious, and one's self-awareness really affect successful inter-personal communication through verbal language. Intentional meanings vs meaning of words versus cultural context are also troubling. So if you act like a child when learning and kill your pride then you may learn faster, let them laugh at your speech! And you'll learn faster.
Learning a language is not a single skill: speaking, reading, writing, and understanding are all different skills. A lot of emphasis on "learning a language" focuses on conversation, but not on reading or writing. There are many (and I'm one) who can speak Spanish at B-2 level, but my goal is to read at a C-2 level. And then there's my native language: increasingly I find myself unable to understand many Americans whose basic problem is that they're trying to fill time with minimal meaning content. (They blather and you can't figure out what they're talking about. Some politicians are great examples!)
I really do not see the magic in this approach. I heard so many opinions. Where were all these facts? I learned both my foreign languages to C2 levels, and I did it all based on applying the grammar rules. The languages are: English (native), German and Spanish. Admittedly, I learned the Spanish subjunctive virtually effortlessly but my professor was a linguist - Dr Errapel Mejías- Vicandi at the University of Nebraska. He is truly exceptional. He made the Spanish subjunctive pathetically simple because he understands and conveys his knowledge so exceedingly well. I agree with instructor that native speakers are often not ideal as instructors at the introductory levels because in so many cases, they really do not know their own language that well. In my case, my linguistics professor was a massive exception. It is also worth noting that he instructed us on the nuances and generalities of Spanish all based on structure. In my case, it was high input via all modalities and knowledge of grammatical structure that made learning my languages easy. I do not think we have figured out how to instruct languages well just like we do not instruct math and science well. I have had a great deal of mathematics and science to rather high levels, and understanding theory (structure) and applying it always seemed to be key. Most never learn biochemistry, organic chemistry, calculus, etc...because they never understood theory.
I 100% disagree with your opening statement. Building blocks are essential for understanding the rules that govern and dictate grammer, understanding and use of a new language that will improve the more these rules are understood and applied. Building blocks are great, should be introduced in level 1. They serve as wonderful frameworks from which to operate from and learn within. They provide guidance and help to eliminate doubt and obscurity.
@@thedealermusic In my experince, this appraoch worked for me. I wish this immersion crap had never come around becaue I am wired differently because of how I was once taught French.
@nanettej9760 Fabulous advice. When asked about a tone or when I listen and guess I always get it wrong, mostly the rising and falling tones, I don't know why 🤦🏼♀️. I agree with everything you say. I need to stop procrastinating. I also find living in Southern Thailand they have many of their own words and phrases, but understanding the basics would be a great lead in. Thank-you, I REALLY need to seriously get started and involved 👍🏼. Thank-you
I second the opinion fluent non-native speakers are generally better teachers than native speakers. The only trade off is that pronunciation and cultural slang will likely suffer. The big challenge for native english speakers is that it is almost impossible to find native english speakers who are fluent enough to teach a foreign language outside of the traditional romance and Germanic languages. Try to find a native english speaker who is fluent enough to teach a Slovak language, Japanese, Arabic language or mandarin. The fact that she teaches Mandarin makes her a Unicorn.
I agree. But to be fair. One is never limited to one teacher. For an absolute beginner, a non native fluent speaker will help. And you can refine your skills by conversing with natives.
can you tell me how the Westerners lesrn English in Europe? Do the Europeans teach English in English or teach it in their European languages? Can you tell me regarding it?
I speak four languages, and come from a culture and schooling that encourages and supports learning foreign languages. We do have to address the most important aspects of the grammar, as it is the skeleton of a language. Grammar then has to be put into context, and practiced a lot, but we can’t consider it secondary, if we want to get to a high level of knowledge of a language. Do study grammar, please, read, and speak, and listen to songs, sing the songs, if you want to gain fluency.
50 yeers ergo i starteed two lurn Ingleesh hand me finks that hat larst i can not ownly speek good but right well as well..A few problems wiv wurds who has moore than threee letterrs but all inn all i are happy.Startting Mandrin sooon.
Learning a language is more like cultivating a garden from scratch, i.e. a building site, with a few tools from your original language(s) than building a mental construct.
Look, I learned two foreign languages very well. My take is that you need to memorize whole chunks of meaningful phrases, and pay attention to phonetics and grammar from the very beginning. As for zen on what makes it work, I find that a lot of descriptions of how high-functioning autists approach problems is eerily similar to how you really should be thinking about the language you are trying to acquire when you are "in the zone." I'm serious: Copy native speakers, listen, and systematize your thoughts consciously and subconsciously.
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Negative Self-talk could also be considered laziness - no? Ones natural Abilities contribute to the proficiency & learning time factors, which involves patience, without personal comparisons to others learning skills, like learning & playing proficient piano, the motivation is key. there is a proverb that says a mans stomach works for itself - meaning you learn how to make sustenance (food) because you are forced to eat to live. So fear can be a great motivator too! Fear over-powers self-talk... Fear also can reduce learning time and improve learning efficiency (proficiency = fluency / time).
Very helpful video. In my experience the biggest impediment to learning a language is perfectionism, which leads to an unwillingness or reluctance to make mistakes. At least that’s my biggest problem.
Hi Adrian.
You're not alone! I have the same issue it helps sometimes that i wanna perfect everything I talk about in English it maxes my energy and stimulates my mind and confidence to keep pushing forward yet it takes a horrible time to shift a mindset while learning anything not only a language .. still trying Suttle it slowly accepting that I might make a mistake but I won't be allowed more than one or two
Especially if a spouse expects to learn his language with perfection.
It is very discouraging.😢
@@alejandraahmed1177
That's a partner problem.
If perfectionism means not being allowed to make mistakes then it would be impossible for anyone to learn a new language. More likely just insecurity and general fear of not being good enough. A person who can't handle making mistakes should keep far away from language learning, or any technical skill, for that matter.
I personally find a non-native speaker who has learnt the foreign language the best teachers, because they understand all the mistakes, the lack of confidence and the need for patience, kindness and encouraging the learner. They have a literal understanding of the struggle and common misconceptions.
Thank you for this post about your experience. I have benefitted from having language partners who are non-native speakers. And I can now easily see how selecting a teacher whose first language is not my targetted one could also be helpful.
Totally agree. And it is a lot less intimidating and it gives hope that it really is possible to learn the language.
Oh, that’s an excellent point. That’s exactly what I should look for when I look for a teacher, thank you.
Absolutely! Teachers that know the struggles of learning any subject tend to be way better teachers than teachers that don't have to struggle as much.
You'll be surprised how many teachers are the opposite of the things you mentioned, be it a secondary language or primary language teacher.
We definitely need more people spreading this message. Americans in particular have been told since I was young that: 1. After a certain age learning a second language is next to impossible, and 2. You will never be able to speak a second language fluently as an adult. Yet these people never seem to have an answer for why non native speakers coming to the U.S. often are able to do exactly what they are saying is impossible.
This is especially head scratching when one keeps hearing that English is among the hardest languages out there.
migrants are more active and adaptable subgroup
if your hearing isn't good you won't learn new language as well as playing on instrument or singing...
They mix with native speakers from day one and acquire the language. English is a language that also does not require excellent grammar to be understood. Our verbs are pretty straight forward too.
I agree with you but English is quite easy. At least if compared to German, French, Japanese etc.
English is very easy to acquire at a basic level -- all Empire languages are (Chinese included). An Empire language that can't be picked up is going to find itself shifting to be easier to acquire. We're even seeing this right now in some of the English rules being casually dropped so we can get more Asians proficient -- like using learnings as a noun, or saying things like "what is the ask?" Things that would have gotten your hand slapped by nuns not so long ago, now common and accepted.
"1. After a certain age learning a second language is next to impossible."
I am not bad at learning. You are just teaching it wrong!
Let me elaborate what is the problem that I encountered, the resistance to learning that stems from adult instinctual aversion to con-artistry, scams, and deceptions.
Informative and encouraging interview. Just about everyone I’ve known who only speaks English has declared they’re incapable of learning another language. In the next breath, they then proclaim how amazing I must be that I became so fluent in French. And then they ask: How did you do it? My answer is bit by bit, and all the while giving myself the opportunity to learn without stressing over perfection. I recognise I have a gift for languages, but that alone didn’t make me fluent. It merely meant I was able to acquire French more quickly than others.
I started learning French at age 15 in school, enjoyed it a lot, did well with it, and pursued an opportunity to live in a French-speaking country at some point. After high school I spent a year in Belgium, followed by four years in Quebec City at university. In both places, I held fast to one principle: minimise the amount of time speaking English, and maximise exposure and practice of French. Over the course of my first six months in Belgium, I became very fluent. In the time after that, it was all about improvement and mastery.
Flash forward to today (40 years later) and my French is very nearly as fluent as my native English. That was my goal from the beginning, and therefore my approach was likely quite different from those whose aim is to become decently conversant.
Seven years ago I married a Filipina grandmother from Mindanao Philippines. I've spent most of the last seven years living in Cagayan de Oro City Mindanao with her. She is a polyglot, a fluent speaker of Bisaya (the Mindanao dialect of Cebuano), her tribal language Higaonon Binukid, Tagalog, Boholano, Hiligaynon, and English. As a young man, I'd studied French and Latin. I've been immersed in the culture and language here, and, as a result, I can communicate in Bisaya, and a little in Higaonon Binukid and Tagalog. I've concentrated on everyday speech, and the habits that native speakers have. I haven't concentrated on grammar. Over time, I've picked up the way that native speakers put their sentences together. The other thing I love is singing in the language. You can learn a lot that way. I don't worry if I make a mistake. Being able to think in Bisaya without translating back into English is something that I'm happy that I can do.
Dr Neubauer is an impressive find. She offered lots of source-hints and ‘what-to-look-for’ advice for the independent language learner. I really appreciate that. Thanks for the video.
The point of flashcards is not to memorize vocabulary (i.e. forever). It's to memorize words until the next time you see them, ideally in context. Vocabulary learning is pointless without other (preferably copious) input. But continuous input without targeted vocabulary learning is also rather scattershot.
Idk to me flashcards never work out because how do I know what flashcards to prioritize? I'll go through spurts of adding a ton of them to a list and then not being able to review often enough so they all, hundreds or even thousands of them, end up "due" so the list is useless. Or I won't feel like I need the list at all and I'll never review the ones I added. It's way easier to me just to wait to see them in context again. I think pre-Internet if you weren't in an immersion environment maybe flashcards were useful, but honestly, what is the probability that there are words you actually need that you won't be encountering in context frequently enough to remember? And why not just engage with more content related to that context if you need to make sure you don't forget the words? (All this said, my ability to remember vocab is way above average and I couldn't develop a daily review habit to save my life but can binge content so maybe it depends on the person.)
indeed flashcards were very useful in my learning of Japanese. But on the other hand I have never used them to learn English (although at the beginning I did memorize vocabulary without Flashcards but in a targeted manner. But really only in the beginning). But I also don't think I'm acquiring any new words in Japanese now ever since I stopped doing flashcards... Based on my experience though I agree, targeted study of vocabulary based on rote memorization was the key to acquiring critical mass of my vocabulary in any of the languages I have studied. Never doing it not even once throughout the whole language learning journey sounds like a receipt for extremely long vocabulary acquiring process.
@@vyli1*recipe
@@jamesdewane1642 meh, I was typing it on a mobile phone with swiping, which sometimes inputs incorrect words. Must have flown under my radar while typing.
You're a very good interviewer. You guide the conversation, then let the subject say what they want to say. You keep it about them and their responses instead of being about you and some agenda of your own. Dr. Neubauer was an excellent choice for for an interview.
Thank you🙏
Great video! People are quick to be intimidated by Chinese/Japanese due to the characters, but in my personal experience learning Japanese for 4 years, Dr. Neubauer is absolutely right about associating sounds/pronunciation to meaning first and then trying to associate that meaning to a character.
I started out mostly by just listening to Japanese through anime, dramas, and conversations with no care about trying to learn Kanji at all. Once I had reached an intermediate level in conversational Japanese, the moment I started consuming written content, my brain just absorbed the characters like a sponge honestly. Obviously I still forget certain kanji now and then, but you can't be too hard on yourself about it. Anytime you learn something over again, you will remember it for longer and longer.
I also believe that many people in the language learning community (especially with regards to Japanese) are far too adamant about using Anki or some other form of hard spaced-repetition training. I have not used Anki a single time while learning Japanese and am quite confident I could read 99% of words in a Japanese newspaper. Just as was stated in the video, the most pleasurable and meaningful way of acquiring words and character knowledge is by seeing the words in context from whatever material you are reading.
Language learning is all about taking baby steps to complete a marathon. It is going to take a while to get to the finish line, but even a baby can make it if they keep on walking.
I am a language teacher and a learner. As an adult learner I personally find that I speak way better than I understand listening to people talk. Mainly because they don't talk at the level of my competency. The issue is that parents modify their speech to the needs of the child. Adults are expected to just be able to handle it.
As a teacher working mostly with 9 and 10 years, native spanish speakers learning English, I talk to my students utilizing my classroom form of 'motherese' which gives my students time to hear and intuitively reflect. Similar to how adults talk to little children. Age appropriate.
Ultimately it is the responsibility of the communicator to make themselves understood, not the listener. If my students don't understand me, it is my fault, not theirs. I started to learn Spanish by listening to children's stories and reading children's books. Find a level and start there. While it is important that responsibility lies with the communicator, as the listener, we also need to tolerate not understanding everything, let some things go without needing to know why. The more we experience something in meaningful communicative context the more the meaning emerges from inside us.
Language is effectively an agreement between people that utterances (etc) have established meanings and context will guide us to it through repeated exposure. This is why we easily remember words we use a lot but words we use rarely we often have doubt over the exact meaning (even in our native langauge)
Excellent comment.
Excellent tips and advice. Thank you.
I know the video is going to be worth watching when I read comments of this quality.
While I appreciate the sentiment and part of me agrees with it, I have to say that as a language teacher and learner myself, I hesitate to agree that it is the communicators responsibility to make themselves understood and not the listeners to understand. Maybe it's due to the different demographics; I teach almost exclusively adults, and many of them constantly complain that native speech is too fast, saying that one particular native speakers accent is ridiculous, or otherwise just putting down native speech in one way or another. Come to think of it, not only regarding natives, but also proficient second language users.
I actually try to impart the exact opposite on students; when I learned Portuguese, Spanish, German etc., the onus was on me to get a grasp on native speech. That entails everything, from pronunciation to idiomatic language use to "strange" grammatical forms and all the rest of it. Otherwise, I would get completely lost listening to natives speaking to each other and, of course, I wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell to converse among natives. Likewise, if one of my students is trying to have a conversation with some native speaking people and can't understand, in my mind it's much more in their interest to work on their comprehension as opposed to constantly asking the natives to slow down which, whilst that is of course fine for beginners, actually begins to grate on many of those natives and leads to a less enjoyable time using the language. Also, I know from my own experience that when you ask people to slow down or otherwise adjust their speech, that can actually produce some pretty negative reactions and makes it really hard to connect to the people and culture beyond surface-level touristy "order a drink at the bar" level of language.
All of that said, I do completely agree that learners shouldn't get bogged down in trying to learn and understand every single last piece of language, and I do try to show my students to have some tolerance for not understanding everything, though I have found that to be a real struggle with some students as it seems to be drilled into them from a young age that they must strive to 100% understand every last morsel of language they're presented with.
Just some thoughts.
@@Tommat194 I’m also a language learner and a teacher of German, English and Japanese and I agree more with this opinion.
And as a teacher I too am prone to long and impassioned posts ^^.
Native speakers and learners who get lots of comprehensible listening input generally have better listening comprehension than speaking ability, because their active vocabulary is smaller than their passive one. This is a fact. However, in some cases language learners don’t get enough listening input. English classes in Japan are a prime example. Because students language ability is limited to what they themselves can produce, and because they don’t practice enough listening at native speed, their ability to speak is generally better. For beginner language learners this is also generally true, because they haven’t listened enough yet.
Having said that, when teaching beginners, I believe that speaking slowly and making sure students understand is part of your job. In some cases people can only hear the sounds of a language once they’ve learned how to produce them. For those who are interested, “The Language Podcast with Richard Simcott: Nailing Pronunciation in a New Langauge” is informative.
However, once students get used to the speed and sounds, it’s also important to say it at a native speed.
As a learner, I think it is your responsibility to get more exposure outside of the classroom through language exchanges, etc. Your teacher should also know good resources for comprehensible input to do on your own, preferably at native speed or with a faster option.
Nowadays people are transitioning from using training wheels on bikes to making bikes with lower seats so that children can easily touch the ground. This is better because children can retract their feet to simulate actual riding.
Language teaching and language books must also transition to more real-world use.
6:38 I couldn't find any teacher advertising comprehensible input lessons in my target language. so I sent messages to several teachers and explained exactly what I wanted. I tried a few different teachers, and one in particular was amazing. I actually sent her a couple videos from Dreaming Spanish to show her what I was hoping for, and she nails it!
Soon an Artificial Intelligence teacher should be developed.
Excelente! That's exactly how I learned Russian at 60 years old, how I teach Spanish now and how I Homeschooled my children. Muchas gracias! ✝
Dr. Neubauer has a very pleasant voice to listen to.
In general I agree. A couple of points. Many textbooks and graded readers present language examples that, while not incorrect grammatically, do not reflect real usage, either in structure or vocabulary. For example, in a sentence where book needs to be the first element, English will write, 'A book was written by Simone.' Lithuanian will write 'A book wrote Simona.' (with appropriate endings showing that Simona is the subject). Thus, starting with authentic texts avoids wasting time with inappropriate and misleading information and also introduces a suitable syntactical and word frequency from the start.
A second point is that grammar is extremely complex if you get down to the nitty gritty. Elementary grammar is a huge simplification. Thus the aim of the latter is to impede the user as little as possible. To spend 6 years learning French grammar without reaching any complexity is insane, but that is what we did in school. Better to spend a day or two on grammar so that it can be recognised and let the grammar seep in through using authentic texts. Obviously, I prefer reading to speaking because a. I have all the time in the world to study each sentence and b. there is no need to respond until I have a sufficient vocabulary base. But, it should be noted that spoken and written language can be very different and so a different method might be better for a person who prefers learning orally.
She is spot on on tones. First, I learn the basic pronunciation and then the accent. Meaning is not conveyed by accent (or in Chinese, tone) alone but also by the letters and the context. Thus, if I say 'I cooked supper,' but pronounced cook as kook or kuk, the listener still understands me and his response using the correct pronunciation of cook will help correct my pronunciation in the future. It is only without context that it becomes unintelligible, like 'Eye kooka'.
The best way to learn vocabulary is foreign to native because you encounter the foreign in a discernable context but to learn the six foreign translations of 'table' lacks that context.
I obviously believe in diving not into the deep end but straight into the ocean, but with a flotation device to keep me from drowning.
Very interesting how many different factors influence the language learning process. You notice right from the start of the interview that Dr Neubauer is not just a scholar but also an active language teacher with lots of practical experience.
Hey Matt
Congratulations on a brilliant interview. Dr Neubauer was so insightful, articulate and passionate - a genuine pleasure to listen to. I am currently ‘acquiring’ Thai so the subject matter was particularly relevant ( especially re tones and characters)
Thanks again
Tom
Sehr interessant, Frau Neubauer ist eine beeindruckende und kompetente Persönlichkeit!
lernst du auch Deutsch?
@@MiloMay Ich auch, A2
The read along comprehension stories on youtube have been more helpful to me in learning french and spanish than any tool I have ever used. If I had had them from the beginning, I would easily be fluent by now. It is the same concept that we used as little kids with our native languages: our parents read to us as we read along, sounding out the words. SO helpful in speaking/reading/writing and comprehension of the spoken language! And there are hundreds of them on youtube!
Do you have any that you would recommend ? I have found a few, and you’re right the stories really do help
@elaineporter182 For french, the french converstion videos of Tarik Elamari called 239 Dialogues en francais are great. If you put that in, the algorithm should offer you a lot more.
For spanish just put in the search bar conversaciones en espanol para aprender....a whole bunch should pop up.
I like that they are not boring like textbooks. Good luck!!
Can you point me towards any A2/B1 German videos?
I imagine they would...I have never studied german. Maybe put "gesprachs in deutsch" in the search bar of youtube or whatever the word for dialogues is?@@clivelinton7657
@clivelinton7657 oh...i just found "dialogues in German for learning" popped up....maybe see if those are good?
It's very cool to come across this thoughtful discussion about how to study Chinese. I've been studying Mandarin for six years now. A year ago I wrote an album of songs in Mandarin and went to China to try to figure out a way to promote it. They are on my channel. For me it has been helpful to have project-oriented goals, that then naturally lead to new projects. I also postponed really learning characters for a very long time, instead prioritizing speaking and comprehension. 加油 everyone!
As a polyglot totally fluent in 5 European languages and a retired teacher and tutor I really enjoyed this interview and I really emphasised with it❤
Empathised perhaps...?
@@ClaySuddath Good catch!
I really appreciate the content you're making! It's so important to platform ACTUAL researchers/experts in SLA rather than self-proclaimed youtube polyglots.
She seems to be a very inspirational teacher, its always a pleasure watching someone who has really thought about their subject very deeply and can express it so well. I must admit I have always thought that its better to study by yourself to get to a higher level, and only then engage with a teacher to push up to fluency. She makes a very persuasive case for having a teacher from day one - but of course finding someone who does it well is always going to be a challenge.
Always the way. I do think there is a social element which can be helpful. Learning on your own without any interaction in the language might feel lonely for a lot of people. I've had some absolutely fascinating discussions in some classes which can be really motivating. Crosstalk is great here too to get started early
I think the most vital ingredient of being able to learn a language is motivation and necessity....then sort of 24/7 exposure to that language...one can find a million different text book approach how to get the basics down,but learning is hard...at the end of the day you have to memorize basic words and expressions,you have to understand the structure of grammar....then the more success you find by interacting with others the more you want to learn....
Diane!!! She is an awesome teacher and professor. I have worked with her for years. She is amazing.
Thanks Matt and Dr. Neubauer - I taught English in South East Asia and now I am learning Italian and find making a youtube channel on the target language helps me push forward to learn a new language. Thanks for you great video.
Great video. I am a non native self taught speaker of Portuguese and I now teach Portuguese to foreigners. British people seem to struggle more than other europeans thought. I think this has something to do with the fact that they think they can't learn. As a non native speaker I have the ability to transmit the language to them in a different way. I understand their plight. In my teaching we use a lot of role play and dialogues. The idea being, if they practice enough they will learn how to order in a restaurante for example.
I try not to focus so much on the grammar at the beginning, as I find that this scares people a lot. We ease into it gradually. As Matt said, children when they learn how to read and when they learn about grammar, can already speak the language. Much of what they already know is instinctive.
When I learned I actually found that i used a system of recognition and formulas - it worked really well for me. Verb ending for regular verbs for example....I couldn't believe how logical and easy it actually was. Learning the verb endings for one verb meaning that I then knew hundreds of other verbs.
I agree with the focus on sounding Native - this seems to be an 'Native English speaker thing' - we should remember that Italians when they speak English have an accent, so do French. It is no big deal having an accent as long as it is comprehensible.
Re speaking like a native speaker - be careful about which native speaker you model yourself on - innit! There are many you wouldn’t want to sound like.
I totally agree with her, she explains it so articulately and accurately.
Thank you for this interview, it's most valuable to learn from people who also learn languages from a different language family, that helps a lot.
I've never imagined that I would enjoy discussing the subject of learning a language while searching for some videos on UA-cam to learn a new language.
I really enjoyed your conversation with Dr. Neubauer. In my experience, her insights to learning language are spot on.
What she first mentioned about the difference in learning a new language for children and adults is the difference in the brain's learning system. You have the declarative system (conscious) and the procedural system (unconscious). In children the procedural system is at its top, weakening by becoming older to give advantage to the declarative system. It is advisable to confront young children with two languages as they will benefit from it later. It does not surprise me that she doesn't really know how neurological learning happens, during my studies not ever a teacher explained to me how to study and what happens in the brain. I asked many teachers to explain me the process - none could and that is astonishing.
It's so true that taking breaks is beneficial and I have found the effect almost magical.
Good video! I learn at home by listening at a comfortable speed for me. Listening to stories, conversations but also attending 2 hour grammar lessons once a week. It's both for me.
I can relate to many points in this video. I'm fluent in Japanese (been using it more than half my life now), but there were a few things that made/make it very hard to say get to a more 'native' level (or even to get fluent took more years than expected). 1. The Social aspect you mentioned...many Japanese people I encounter randomly from either language exchange sites or real life in Japan will judge me on appearance first (normal since I'm not Asian and 98% of population or more is Asian so it's kinda like wtf to some people) and assume I don't know Japanese. And if I do know it it takes new people days or even weeks/months to get used to that I am in fact speaking Japanese (so if it's just a one time encounter the conversations will be exactly the same each time "you know Japanese""why" etc, then it ends). It's like some Japanese-people bug-out/glitch-out like a computer error or something and it takes them more time to adapt. And of course they are super supportive of beginners and at that stage they would mainly say "nihongo ga jyouzu desu ne" or you are so good at Japanese, in after you just say "konnichiwa" or a simple greeting that people sometimes know that they haven't even studied...so finding people that would get used to me or be willing to speak in Japanese when I was a beginner was hard just because the misconception of a foreigner not knowing the language is just so high it makes them hold back always, and even some people try to use English even if you are fluent in Japanese. So because of that issue and how much I studied the language my pride was too high, and I would even avoid some teachers since most teachers weren't teaching me anything new, but stuff 'foreigners probably don't know' and it's hard finding someone that really adjusts to my level even though I have over the years. But eventually many of them said "you don't need lessons, I learn more from you than you do from me lol" or something like that, and then it's been a frustrating experience after getting to a fluent level 10-15 years ago. I probably will have to go back to get a teacher again or wait for AI to become native-like, just because it's easy to not challenge myself in the language and get lazy, just because I'm not going to have enough positive stimulus or conversations overall. A lot of Japanese people judge on AGE too (won't talk to people few years different sometimes and most are in their 20s on apps), and it could be 6 months+ before somebody actually talks to a 37 year old like me on an app like Hellotalk. Being in Japan was the best experience though, although I almost died there I did get to use Japanese in the hospital and talk to doctors for dozens of hours and learn lots of medical terminology, that was one of the best experiences of my life (I didn't use any English at all in Japan), and knowing the language SAVED my life! they said they wouldn't have sent the ambulance if I didn't know Japanese cuz they didn't have translators/interpreters working at the time. So in a way I'm glad I knew the language, but I feel from too many negative social interactions and not really getting true friends kinda messed me up a bit. But I still enjoy Japanese entertainment.
TLDR: The social element is extremely important for fast progress/motivation to keep it up/prevent you from going insane. (Depending on your reason for studying the language, I wanted to marry Yamato Nadeshiko (The ideal Japanese woman)/have a family/have a job in Japan and everything, but that was just a pipe dream)
Nowadays I'm gonna take a step back and redefine my goals/meaning for why I'm using this language so much lmao
Thank you :) That was really helpful and interesting
Great interview. Thank you.
I gained so much from this podcast! Now I want to implement some of the suggestions shared. Is there anyone else here who is learning either Swahili or Czech? Would love to have non-native speakers as language exchange partners.
Hi Matt! Another top top video! I am soooooo grateful! Thank you!! Super guest! 😀👍👍👍
Insightful details about the mechanics of language learning. I enjoyed the interview. Very helpful. Definitely will do the UA-cam read-alouds. Thank you.
When you're a kid, anything is good enough. When you're an adult, nothing is good enough.
You must be blessed. That's not true for everyone.
When I was a child, nothing was good enough. My family and teachers would say how dissatisfied they were with me and compared me with my peers if I don't do well in sports, courses etc. But my parents still provided a roof over my head and food. And I might get some person/stranger who is sympathetic towards me how poorly I get treated because i was a child.
But now as an adult, same problems but the stakes are higher. If I don't get a career/job or make enough money, I can't pay for food and shelter. Nobody cares if I don't get hired or get layed off and I can't pay my bills. Nobody cares if I'm struggling. Everyone don't care if I fail or not because I'm not child anymore. I find most people aren't nice. Everyone is all for themselves. Family only want me to make money for them. Life sucks. 😢
@@SnowS162
I think he meant, as a kid, anything is good enough for the kid, as an adult, nothing is good enough for the adult because as kids we are better at accepting things as they are whereas it's more difficult for most adults to just accept things as they are
@mensojero, That’s exactly what I understood. The other person’s response caught me offguard, lol.
Many learning resources before were awful; I was overwhelmed learning another language as a child by myself, there was no support to learn the language. Now as an adult I have more confidence, I am for myself and help my family, I learn a language with many resources in the internet and have a certain amount of control over what I use my time for. I think it is a matter of perspective, nothing is prefect in the end, but we can try to clear a path for ourselves if we have the determination to fight for ourselves and what we want for ourselves. Mindset is a game changer.
Great interview! I learn a lot as a language teacher and also a language learner. Thanks Diane!
Soon an Artificial Intelligence teacher should be developed.
Late to this one, Matt-my apologies!
Glad to see you’re still getting experts involved in the conversation. I’m learning even the best methods have some room for improvement. It’s also good to hear there’s still no replacement for consistency with time spent in the language. Looking at you, Duolingo!
The advice on learning Chinese is very good.
i am learning russian.. i have learned many phrases, words and some idioms! Not easy. so i will continue to go foward!
Great tips & input. I now feel re-energized for my language journey. Thank you 😊
💯💯 knowing a bit about formal logic and how the logic behind language gets translated into formal logic (imperfectly), I can imagine that formal grammar is similarly imperfect at capturing the living language.
A really interesting interview - thanks to you both. I agree with Dr Neubauer about grammar, which I used to regard as very important but I now think that being familiar with common sentence structures is more useful. I also don’t think that flash cards are useful or interesting. But, to be honest, I now see grasping tones as very important when learning Chinese. I know that I will never sound like a native speaker but I have found that speaking with the correct tones is essential if I want to be understood. Thanks again.
yeah she is dead wrong about tones.. the main problem with tone learning is that students are not taught the way people actually speak. and this isn't reinforced by needing to properly produce the tones to be understood by natives. I don't think it takes long to learn, but i think it's completely ignored in instruction
Hi , so glad I found this, thank you ❤
This makes me feel better. I teach Spanish. Language acquisition through comprehensible input. After two years, my students were talking pretty well even though they would get confused with some conjugations. However, that’s not a big deal because the message came across enough to keep a conversation going.
Very helpful. I believe she is correct.
As a native Chinese speaker, I can speak English pretty well, I can understand your conversation without difficulty. Now I'm trying to learn French, that's why I'm listening to your video. Chinese is vastly different from English and French.
The key to a language is often in the cadence of its sounds. Coming from a different language is terrifying because our current aural expertise simply cannot cope with that sound barrier. So we tend to obsess about grammar and vocabulary. But if we instead listen to the foreign cadence of sounds, finding a new personal resonance with those alien utterances, we build ourselves a strong framework that allows us to emote and express in a rich new world. Take each new phrase you learn and say it, yell it, sing it in as many ways as you can to Google translate. If GT can understand you, then 👍🏼. Learn sounds with all your heart first. Vocab and grammar then follow easily.
One way to master tones is to listen to a phrase, then think of an English sentence that mimics the “up and down” sounds. For example, say “I think so” and notice the intonation. Now you are aware of the stressed and unstressed words, match an English phrase with the Chinese tones.
more important than any complicated method of optimizing your learning is this: Have fun! it really works 加油
💯🔥 🔥
Thanks awfully. That's a huge help.
This woman needs to be inducted in the language learning hall of fame. She is on Steve Kaufman's level. Brilliant.
I started my language journey in the mid 1970’s. We had a family friend from Colombia. I ask him what was the way I could learn Spanish. He suggested finding Spanish language books and get a Spanish-English dictionary and look up all the words. It was very tedious but it worked. When the internet came along I was able to expand my knowledge by watching Univision and other Spanish language Television. Thank goodness learners do not have to do what I did. But foreign language was not even taught in our public schools. That was it ( translating books)other than buying records. I have traveled all over Latin America and Spain and I have had no problems conversing with the native population.
I'm thinking of trying to offer conversation classes and this is great advice. I would 100% use comprehensible input and teach thngs in context. The only thing I would do different is actually using flashcards but only custom-made as extra help to understand a specific dialogue/story/movie scene etc. Also AI can be a great tool to create content more effciently if you know how to ask for it
Wow, 7:45 is so insightful, and really requires having a different mindset towards language acquisition
I compare students studying vocab books like "800 Essential Words" as an exercise of memorization and not a language process; it is instead comparable to memorizing numbers. Only when the words are used in the linguistic context of communication (speaking, listening) do they become a part of the language.
def agree with takin a couple wks off every now n then, but they don't normally mention that!
11:48 Yes to taking a break! I had a year between work stints in France and I was *shocked* at the integration that had happened; many things came much easier. Very interesting to hear that this is actually a thing.
How long do you think it takes to reach advanced levels if you live and study full time in your target language ?
One year should get you fairly advanced.
In my experience breaks don't contribute to progress, not one bit.
You can read my story below.
I had spent 7 years learning a second language the conventional way, some in school and some as individual hobby.
And even though i did well in school, realistically my final level was barely a beginner. ( A1-A2, as was confirmed by a comprehensive test)
Then as a 19 year old i was a part of this experiment.
I was placed in a foreign military academy with very strict guidelines.
Foreign students were only allowed to use L2 (second language), any use of native language wasn't allowed, it was absolute 100% immersion environment 24/7.
(Kinda similar to Middlebury Language school or French Foreign Legion approach)
And even though i was already an adult, i learned a second language to a near native level within a year.
I could physically feel the development of a second language.
After 3 months i was thinking in L2 full time, i had near native listening comprehension in 6 months.
And obviously i wasn't studying a second language exclusively, I was learning science, engineering, humanities, doing sports. I was having a rich learning experience while acquiring a second language at a rate that seemed magical.
There are very important conditions that allow adults to learn on par with immigrant kids.
One condition really.
Temporarily abstain from native language and dedicate all the remaining time to a second language.
Regarding deliberate study of grammar.
Nobody was teaching me any of that.
Well, I had a tutor for a few sessions, but then a school decided to forgo tutoring because our progress was too fast to keep track of.
Yes, our progress, because there were 5 of us. And we all exhibited remarkable rates of improvement.
We were separated to different battalions (dorms) and we weren't allowed to communicate.
As far as explicit knowledge of L2 grammar, I FORGOT everything I knew as a beginner.
I ACQUIRED grammar the same way native speakers do and I was reasonably grammatically correct.
A Grammatically correct sentence SOUNDS right, incorrect sounds funny.
I don't know any of the textbook grammar explanations.
That being said, studying L2 grammar ENTIRELY using L2 when you are more advanced could be a USEFUL tool, though not entirely necessary.
Studying L2 grammar (or vocabulary) using native language is a colossal waste of time.
Just FYI, your first link in the description, the one for her yt page, has a typo.
Thanks for sharing the great talk!
Many people don't believe that Chinese as a spoken language is actually one of the easiest languages to learn, it is easier than many European languages and even Japanese because the grammar is simple. Probably the easiest language to learn is Indonesian because unlike Chinese, it uses the alphabet system. What I meant be learn is to be able to converse with a native speaker, perhaps speak like grade school level. Not to take anything away from Dr NeuBauer. The thing about tone is some people will never master it but doesn't matter because even in English in sounds different in different regions but most of the time there is context in every sentence and people will understand.
[in my other native language, AAE] C’mon somebody! She laid out the blueprint. If the lady that teach the thing say go do XYZ , why try to be smarter than the teacher? Oh my god, it was like it was laid on my lap. I’m playing at, I’m doing a lazy model of comprehensive input for Mandarin daily but I was waking up feeling adrift. I was dabbling in it all. This video just solidified the role of each part of my study. Can’t thank ol’ girl enough. Also I’m a big fan of the learned. Dr. Diane Neubauer just revolutionized my life! Girlfriend laid it down now! All jokes aside, Dr. Neubauer was the first person to explain the concepts of language acquisition as an adult. And the concept of distance not difficulty. Coursera has free courses in Mandarin. After I passed my first test in all Hanzi, I said alright now. I had proof that all you gotta do is want it. It’s a marathon not sprint like everything else in life. I am on top of the world from this video. Much obliged.
I find that native material and native speakers are the best models or references, although not necessarily teachers. Whatever you can do to supplement your listening and reading with material by and for native speakers, it’s helpful so you can hear that natural speech.
Great video! Thank you❤
Interesting, but my findings are the opposite. Diane seems to be a serious researcher, so I’m listening to her carefully. I suspect most of the research (at least what I’ve come across in my reading) is on the wrong track and I can’t understand why.
My research is arguably more anecdotal and certainly not as robust as comparative studies with large numbers of learners. The approach that seems the most effective in my experience is kind of the reverse:
1. Reading + accurate pronunciation (by reading out loud).
2. Producing questions and answers in a colloquial setting (by reading out loud). Grammar on a need-to-know basis.
3. Understanding (written) conversations, memorizing role plays, songs, conversational texts (like romance novels), etc. - not children’s material, which is mostly irrelevant to an adult. Building vocabulary.
4. Listening to the material above, while following the text (e.g. closed caption or audiobooks). Listening again but without following the text.
5. Don’t bother with writing (viz. composition). It’s a different language, for advanced speakers and conversationalists only. (There is more nuance to this, but essentially, leave it for later.)
I’ve named this the “repertoire” approach to language acquisition.
Could you tell me why you prioritize accurate pronunciation, and is that for Thai?
I teach English, and it seems that accurate pronunciation creates more comprehensible input. Without an orientation to pronunciation, lots of vocabulary gets encoded in terms of the student's native language phonetics.
@@jamesdewane1642 I think it has something to do with the way connections are generated in the brain. The "muscle memory" that comes with accurate muscle dexterity somehow feeds into (what I call) the "inner ear".
The way we hear (and see) the world is mostly by recreating the noisy and very incomplete "input" from the ears (and eyes) by a process of filling-in-the-gaps, usually through anticipation and guesswork, based on prior knowledge.
If you already have a solid knowledge and mastery of speaking the sounds then I think your brain can subsequently "hear" more clearly.
English is really hard. It isn't consistent. So it's difficult to read texts phonetically. Other languages like Thai, Hebrew, Spanish, Italian and German are pronounced as written - making them much easier languages to learn.
No, I try to avoid applying native language phonetics - unless the sounds are already identical. When learning a new language, it's important to learn the phonetics that do not exist in our native language, and to master them physically through slow, accurate, repeated, verbal pronunciation. The (physiological) mechanics of how to produce the sound matters most. Just listening to others speak won't do it, and you may end up learning to mispronounce words - because of mishearing the sounds in our inner ear - and end up with a permanent foreign accent (once your muscles have set like jello).
nope she's right. you're wrong
If you can only get one point out of this interview, it’s at 23:50
What strikes me is the very different definition of "fluency" most people have compared to me...
I consider myself fluent in a language if I can speak, read and listen on a native level, with as little accent as possible. If you have any hesitation in speaking, reading or listening understanding of a language, you are obviously not fluent. It goes without saying you think in that language when doing these 3 things. Am I wrong?
you're wrong. do you know anxiety or ptsd? yeah, this stuff is the reason my brain shuts down with most ppl. even the smartest ppl aren't perfect, and I know I'm the minority when it comes to having a brain ^^
@@kalyasaify I can't follow your reasoning, why would anxiety or PTSD have any influence in the fact you are or are not fluent in a language? Yes it can hinder you learning a language, or speaking it, hence "becoming fluent" in a language, but I talk about "being fluent" in a language, and that is a definition based on knowledge.
Indeed. I agree with you.
English is my second language and I grasp it, I understand it, I can read difficult books (though one book at uni broke me…staring at it on the shelf now…😩🙈), I can understand it spoken in almost any accent, and so on. During periods when almost everything I listen to and watch is in English I start thinking in English too.
But I couldn’t possibly say I’m fluent in it. I’m fluent in my native language. Not in English. I’ve probably made some grammatical error, or expressed myself in a way a native wouldn’t, even in this short comment. Lol.
@@ChristinaChrisR this sounds very much like fluency to me, occasional small grammar errors are not an exclusion criteria IMHO. Because then you would have to call quite a few native speakers to be not fluent, and that in almost all languages😂
I was excited to learn about my role as a language parrot. So disappointed it turned out to be something else.
I thought she was going to confirm a concept i made up, a little tongue in cheek. Primarily, teachers are Native Language Generating Devices.
I start a class with whatever, then the whole rest of the time, I'm reacting as quickly and naturally as i can at a level that doesn't lose interest, interest being my proxy for comprehension. And i have to work in the target vocabulary and grammar and elicit whatever they're capable of doing... Language teaching is a hoot! A lot like coaching a sport.
Yeah, I would COMPLETELY disagree with the notion that grammar should only be studied in context and learning it outside of a context the textbook style way is the wrong way to do it. In fact, in my personal experience of learning 3 foreign languages(reaching C2, B2, B2 in them), the textbook way to learn the grammar seems to be the fastest way to progress ones learning process. For two of the languages, I've been learning them at school, so there I got the foundation in grammar the old school way. I've tried studying Japanese without studying grammar the textbook way and going at it with this comprehensible input, learning vocabulary and grammar in context and what not. After YEARS!!! of DAILY!!! effort (yes, I have been learning at least 15-30 minutes every single day for 5 years this way) of absolutely no worthwhile results (I couldn't hold a reasonable conversation in Japanese and I couldn't read any Japanese text nor understand spoken Japanese), due to wanting to pass certification levels, I have started learning grammar the textbook way. Only the grammar, actually at least I already had a good base in vocabulary thanks to my studying. That was finally the moment, where I was able to finally move from what was possibly A1-A2 Japanese to B1 and B2. In my experience of all the 3 languages that I have been studying so far, the textbook grammar study was an integral part of my language learning process and without it I'd never move on with my Japanese. Actually, most people who learn foreign languages do go through the textbook grammar study process. I don't have any numbers on people who only go the comprehensible input route, but I would guess, that most of them either give up completely, or anyway get help from textbooks every now and then to get them a step further in their language process. Most of the people who claim they have been learning by comprehensible input anyway already had a base of the language acquired in the traditional way. Or it must take much longer to be learning language that way. I'm not saying that consuming content in the target language is not helpful. Of course it is crucial to reaching high levels of fluency. That's the only reason I have achieved this level of fluency in English. But I would have never made it without the traditional study method, or at least it would have taken me significantly longer time.
Totally agree . The clearest way is a solid text book base (as an introduction to the language) and then just diving in with the input
I am very thankful that I never consulted youtube when I started learning spanish, because for whatever reason (maybe it’s my algorithm), youtube is littered with anti-grammar study propaganda. Incorporating an hour to two hours a week of concentrated grammar study propelled my spanish learning beyond what pure CI was able to provide.
Kinda pointless arguement, because almost no adults claim to have learned only by comprehensible input, without any instructions on sentence structure,, how to count, express emotions, and all the other things books and audio/video courses provide. No one is arguing that as an adult you can skip that part..what people are arguing is that you will never be fluent in a language by just studying grammar and textbooks.
@@alvodin6197 but that is exactly what she is arguing 😅 that studying grammar textbook style is not effective. Rather what nobody ever said is, that textbooks are enough. That was never said by anyone in the language learning community.
@@vyli1 Learning from a text book is a ROOKIE mistake. In fact, in the real world, people use slang. You won't even be able to hear the words you are learning. Listening is obviously the most important. If you can't even understand what they are saying, you can't respond, no matter how much vocab you know.
The United States is a wonderful place to learn languages, especially if you are in a City. You may progress through at least beginner-intermediate fluency in any language simply by locating events, shops, markets, or businesses with native speakers of your preferred language, and learning a few phrases. Then, GO AND INTERACT. Example: I can pick up a coffee each morning and speak some basic Arabic with the shopkeeper (my 4th language in progress). This kind of active practice will do wonders to expand your vocabulary and understanding, because it's REAL.
Also, instead of being constantly chained to a book, screen, or the storm of your own mind that can take over in familiar places, this kind of practice pins a new location in your mind, and this extra dimension and extra color obviates much of the usual effort needed to rapidly recall words for any occasion.
This is a very nice and informative video from the Professor - however, beyond the academic discussions, the easiest way to actually learn any language is not through theory, but through PERFORMANCE. Having said that, i'm no language expert and am not trying to contradict anything in her video (this is great stuff); i would only caution that I see this kind of extended information as merely the cherry on top of the dessert after the main course - namely the meat and potatoes of deciding for yourself what you will learn, then going out to do it ACTIVELY. This approach of course depends on your location, but it is very likely in the United States that most of the critical resources you need are ALL AROUND YOU IN PEOPLE - it's your choice whether or not to take advantage of the rich variety of culture and language we enjoy as a population. Cheers;)
I didn't even know this was possible!
She knows what she's talking about.
i am learning mandarin chinese now. it is a lot of fun. learning to write hanzi is a lot of fun too especially if you like calligraphy! I was wondering if learning japanese would be a lot easier when knowing hanzi? I usually looked up the writing of both chinese and japanese
I studied Mandarin for a year. I did not find it difficult. But it's a very different language, and you will need to learn some new communication strategies. It's certainly going to take more time than learning French, where English has already borrowed quite a lot of French vocabulary, often more than one time for a single word.
Learning to write all the characters by hand is laborious, but I think that's also true for the native Chinese during their school years. Having worked so hard to gain that skill, you do get more information on the page in the same amount of space. English is more compact than French, and Mandarin is more compact again.
"Way to actually learn a language" as opposed to "Way to learn a language" .
What does "actually" mean in this context ?
In other words, is there a difference between "learning" and "actually learning" ?
To get the clicks 👍😉
I understand English at native level and I use English every day at work, but I still make basic grammar mistakes in my writing, and in speech particularly with the use of articles and especially when I'm tired. I wonder if there is any way of breaking that fossilization after years of "malpractice"?
I have lived in Thailand for 7 years and can still barely put a sentence together. Even worse I struggle to understand what people say to me,as it is also a tonal language and I'm in Southern Thailand the dialect changes a bit, my husband does not help me, or VERY moderately rarely. I panic when people speak directly to me, I find it better to try and listen and if I hear a word repeated try to find the meaning, that is also problematic as there are various spellings. I will never be fluent but to understand those around me would be such a help and minimise my paranoia.
Well, here is the question: have you taken Thai language classes while living there for 7 years?
@@crush_override
I began to take lessons, I paid for a year's school, but ended up attending for about 2 months, due to other study, husband, the bf taking me to his hometown for a month then getting a job. I personal study is very inconsistent. I'm currently back living in hubby's hometown and wish to ask his English teacher he had when at school if she can help me. I really need to understand more than speak. Inconsistency and finances are my biggest challenge.
My son knows many Thai words, does ok to communicate. He went to Thailand when he had R&R while in the Marines. When he got out of the Marines he worked contract jobs in Afghanistan and Iraq, he continued to go to Thailand on R&R. He made good Thai friends. He would like to live there one day. I was always impressed on the language he picked up just visiting.
@@debbied9842Lucky boy, some people seem to have a knack of learning languages. It would be a wonderful skill to have.
There are courses on tones. If you start with that and then practice by reading subtitles and repeating out loud. This helps train your ear and so you can actually recognise the sounds that people are saying. That is the foundation. It will take perhaps around 4 months to get your ear in following a course and doing it 20-30 mins a day. And so you don't get bored you should also do an app to help expose you to vocab and sentences because the brain likes to construct. And then after those 4 months of doing those 2 things get yourself a tutor on Italki and they will then be able to guide you. You can do this 💪💪💪💪
Her point about the conscious and sub-conscious, and one's self-awareness really affect successful inter-personal communication through verbal language. Intentional meanings vs meaning of words versus cultural context are also troubling. So if you act like a child when learning and kill your pride then you may learn faster, let them laugh at your speech! And you'll learn faster.
Just a heads up. The link that you gave for Diane's channel doesn't seem to work. Fantastic video!
Good vid. Thumbs up.
Thank you 🌟🔥🌹🔥🌟
Learning a language is not a single skill: speaking, reading, writing, and understanding are all different skills. A lot of emphasis on "learning a language" focuses on conversation, but not on reading or writing. There are many (and I'm one) who can speak Spanish at B-2 level, but my goal is to read at a C-2 level. And then there's my native language: increasingly I find myself unable to understand many Americans whose basic problem is that they're trying to fill time with minimal meaning content. (They blather and you can't figure out what they're talking about. Some politicians are great examples!)
I really do not see the magic in this approach. I heard so many opinions. Where were all these facts?
I learned both my foreign languages to C2 levels, and I did it all based on applying the grammar rules. The languages are: English (native), German and Spanish.
Admittedly, I learned the Spanish subjunctive virtually effortlessly but my professor was a linguist - Dr Errapel Mejías- Vicandi at the University of Nebraska. He is truly exceptional.
He made the Spanish subjunctive pathetically simple because he understands and conveys his knowledge so exceedingly well. I agree with instructor that native speakers are often not ideal as instructors at the introductory levels because in so many cases, they really do not know their own language that well. In my case, my linguistics professor was a massive exception. It is also worth noting that he instructed us on the nuances and generalities of Spanish all based on structure.
In my case, it was high input via all modalities and knowledge of grammatical structure that made learning my languages easy.
I do not think we have figured out how to instruct languages well just like we do not instruct math and science well. I have had a great deal of mathematics and science to rather high levels, and understanding theory (structure) and applying it always seemed to be key.
Most never learn biochemistry, organic chemistry, calculus, etc...because they never understood theory.
Man in japan saw a toyota sign and thought wow they do have signs in english here
good work
I 100% disagree with your opening statement. Building blocks are essential for understanding the rules that govern and dictate grammer, understanding and use of a new language that will improve the more these rules are understood and applied. Building blocks are great, should be introduced in level 1. They serve as wonderful frameworks from which to operate from and learn within. They provide guidance and help to eliminate doubt and obscurity.
That’s how I learned German - learned all the grammar rules first and then added vocabulary. For my learning style it worked very well
@@thedealermusic In my experince, this appraoch worked for me. I wish this immersion crap had never come around becaue I am wired differently because of how I was once taught French.
@nanettej9760
Fabulous advice. When asked about a tone or when I listen and guess I always get it wrong, mostly the rising and falling tones, I don't know why 🤦🏼♀️. I agree with everything you say. I need to stop procrastinating. I also find living in Southern Thailand they have many of their own words and phrases, but understanding the basics would be a great lead in. Thank-you, I REALLY need to seriously get started and involved 👍🏼. Thank-you
I second the opinion fluent non-native speakers are generally better teachers than native speakers. The only trade off is that pronunciation and cultural slang will likely suffer. The big challenge for native english speakers is that it is almost impossible to find native english speakers who are fluent enough to teach a foreign language outside of the traditional romance and Germanic languages. Try to find a native english speaker who is fluent enough to teach a Slovak language, Japanese, Arabic language or mandarin. The fact that she teaches Mandarin makes her a Unicorn.
I agree. But to be fair. One is never limited to one teacher. For an absolute beginner, a non native fluent speaker will help. And you can refine your skills by conversing with natives.
can you tell me how the Westerners lesrn English in Europe? Do the Europeans teach English in English or teach it in their European languages? Can you tell me regarding it?
At about 7:50, who is she talking about when she refers to "him"?
I speak four languages, and come from a culture and schooling that encourages and supports learning foreign languages. We do have to address the most important aspects of the grammar, as it is the skeleton of a language. Grammar then has to be put into context, and practiced a lot, but we can’t consider it secondary, if we want to get to a high level of knowledge of a language.
Do study grammar, please, read, and speak, and listen to songs, sing the songs, if you want to gain fluency.
Thanks awfully. That's a huge help.
no. no just no. lol no.
Them in foreign language: Do you like our food?
Me: I'm doing good! and me?
50 yeers ergo i starteed two lurn Ingleesh hand me finks that hat larst i can not ownly speek good but right well as well..A few problems wiv wurds who has moore than threee letterrs but all inn all i are happy.Startting Mandrin sooon.
Learning a language is more like cultivating a garden from scratch, i.e. a building site, with a few tools from your original language(s) than building a mental construct.
Interesting
Look, I learned two foreign languages very well. My take is that you need to memorize whole chunks of meaningful phrases, and pay attention to phonetics and grammar from the very beginning. As for zen on what makes it work, I find that a lot of descriptions of how high-functioning autists approach problems is eerily similar to how you really should be thinking about the language you are trying to acquire when you are "in the zone." I'm serious: Copy native speakers, listen, and systematize your thoughts consciously and subconsciously.