My strong guess is that what you're hearing is the later Kurzs' convertors have less harmonic distortion and saturation, as I've seen in tests (a K2500 vs K2700 video).
the K2661 also has the later converter technology, delta sigma. The K2000 to K2600 has multi-bit R2R Dacs offering more punch, warmer sound - but non-linear in the low-end. The K2661 they switched over to delta sigma, they could have done so earlier but did not - the R2R multibit are more expensive and associated circuitory. So its not just the converters something else has changed in the later line.
Proud owner of a K2661 with sampling option. I own 10 different synthesizers but the K2661 is the one I lusted after more than any other since it was new.....but it was out of my price range back then. I was finally able to find one with the sampling option for a decent price about 5 years ago.
@@Abruzzo333 I can imagine. I managed to snag one in 2010 before they ran out at sweetwater. I wish I'd had the foresight to get the vintage keys ROM as well.
well after watching this I fired up my old k2600xs in the basement. There is no doubt about it !!! It sounds so much more fuller than my pc3x. I think I will hold off on the k2700. If they just modernized the k2600 XS they would have a mind blowing synth!!!
Great to hear it, hang on to that gem I’ve just finished loading mine with some fresh new sound packs you don’t even need the sampler for it just loads in via the midi cables. I don’t think I’ll get the 2700 either as it uses the PC4 engine which I’m now trying to sell so I think it’s just a PC4 with a few extra bills and whistles.
I agree with you....but I think they are cutting cost in several places to keep up with the competition as Kurzweil does not sell as many keyboards as the Big Three...
I think people have been complaining about the lower bit order conversion and design limits of the older hardware not being present on newer hardware. It’s a common complaint with newer hardware just and people love the warm of vinyl records where audio has to be compressed to fit the dynamic range of the technology. What you’re used to is what you prefer. The thing is you can bit crush and compress the newer hardware to get that same generalized sound. Filters, pedals, and VSTs can create those conditions.
I totally agree with you. I own both K2661 and Forte. New VSAT machines sound like something is missing, which is tricky and subtle to put into words. But we can definitely tell old machines have more solid sound than new ones. Do A/B comparison between the old and new, and this will sink in.
Thanks for writing in. I’ve heard it may be the newer oscillators that have taken away from the k series. I hope Kurzweil finds all of our feedback some day and builds a k2800 dream machine with all of the legacy sounds, plus a few hundred new ones. New screen and rom and ram upgrades and that should be the perfect machine for us.
@@SanctuaryLife the crazy thing is the K2700 should be exactly that. Hopefully it’s not another PC evolution i.e. a “PC4K”. Thanks for your honest video. In the few recent K2700 videos, I’ve seen the reviewer report that it’s great, but their body language and hesitation is obviously contradictory to their words.
I have the k2000 , k2600 , Pc3k6, and the Pc3 . The only thing better on the Pc3k is the Electric Piano sounds. The 2600 is so fat and mellow ! The 2600 needs more ram and sample memory...flash memory would be nice. More location for sounds and I would be good to go. I love what you can do with the 32 layers. You can make sounds as thick as you need them and place them anywhere on the keyboard. I hardly see any Kurzweils out on the road, mostly Yamaha, Roland and Korg. I also own at least 2 of all of those keyboard also along with a Nord Electra 3. I have been doing this for a long long time so I know how they all sound. On the road I carry the Pc3k6, Yamaha Es6, and in my rack I have a Korg wavestation SR and an Emu Proteus 2000. The kurzweils make excellent keyboard controllers for live show.....nothing else come close ! I am looking to replace my Pc3k6 with a Pc3k7 as i really need the extra keys at the bottom. After over 20 yrs with Kurzweil I still don't know all the things it will do. Good luck fellow Keyboarders....stay in touch. E Wayne
Well, I recently bought a completely new PC3k8 and ROMs GERMAN GRAND D + KORE64 in the store, which I want to install. So, the question is, could you tell me which SOUND EDITOR I will need to use later? There are only 3 of them: 1) EDITOR PC3, 2) PC3k and 3) PC3A. It seems to me that after installing both extensions PC3k becomes PC3A, ain't it? Thanks!
Great findings! My K2600 with Sampling Option and KDFX is still a Midi-Master-Controller and Sound-Engine on my Desk. Even the KDFX it's worth it in 2024! Once i did the K2000 Demo at the "Frankfurter Music Messe". But i lost my Notator Song file on some Floppy Disc over the years...The K2600 was my main Keyboard in a live-setup on tour in Europe. I even had a Nr.1 Hit in Nigeria produced with the K2600 :-) But i miss my DX7, EMU EMAX SE, Ensoniq VFX Setup i used in the early 90ies...
It’s hard to believe we would miss our old gear, when back in the day, we saw all the new fancy stuff come out and felt the need to upgrade. Sound is amazing, and it’s the older stuff that really is priceless because the new gear can’t replicate it.
You remind me of myself when I first got a Kurzweil piano at 12 I spent hours playing with the sounds which my def shelty dog🐶 would bark with excitement to the sounds coming from the keyboard
It could have something to do with the sample interpolation on the older k series. I own a K2500S, and one of the things that I appreciate about the sound is how the low end, and the overall depth of a sample, doesn't get lost when I play samples in the lower octaves. Even playing a sound at the lowest possible pitch until it becomes one long wave cycle can sound pretty damn good.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, curious, have you had or tried a k2600? It should have the same depth and fullness of sound as the 2000 & 2500 from what I’ve heard from others. I’ve never owned a 2500 so I don’t know for sure. I know that after the 2600/2661 as you go into the pc3’s and fortes the sound is very thin.
@@SanctuaryLife Yeah I've had the K2661 and the K2000. The K2661 is most definitely just as full sounding, and is actually slightly better because of it's balanced outputs. The balanced outputs give it a hotter signal, so it's got a better overall output and dynamic range.
@@MichaelRivera718 Ok that's awesome mate. I have had K2600's for over a decade. Just recently managed to pick up a K2661 so I am extremely happy that the sound is the same as the K2600. Just curious why you stuck with the K2500 but not the K2661, I have never tried the K2500 is it worth it for someone like me? I am assuming it has a totally different set of patches?
@@SanctuaryLife I had sold my K2661 ten years ago, just cause I needed the money at the time. Last year I decided to buy another one but I noticed that none had the sampling option like the one I had, so I bought a K2000S. Then a few months later I saw a K2500S with the KDFX option for cheap, so I bought it and sold the K2000. I prefer to sample into the keyboard itself, and the feature set of the 2500 is closer to the 2600. Nowadays its hard to find 2600S, and rare to find a K2661 with the sampling option, but aside from that I'd say theres not much benefit to getting the 2500 if you have the 2661 already.
@@MichaelRivera718 interesting I don’t know much about sampling on this k2661, but I noticed a scsi port at the back of it. Could you just plug a Zip drive in and sample off that? Assuming they all have the scsi port.
I have one that I loaned to my friend for years, and he just dropped dead a few weeks ago, and now I'm having a nightmare getting it back. the girlfriend that he lived with won't get back to me. I bought it new when they came out in Studio City Music in LA and it had all the options. I really want that thing back. it cost me 3K at the time.
@@InFamousProductions sorry to hear that and my condolences. Try to get it back at all costs. If it makes you feel any better I sold my small one the k2661 on eBay and it got damaged in shipping. I ended up losing the synth and got no money for it as I was forced to refund the buyer as well after paying $1000 postage. I will never sell a synth on eBay again. Guard it with your life when you get it back 🥰
I didn’t think there were additional ROM sticks for the K2661? It has the Contemporary ROM from the K2600 by default so contains all the pianos from it. If you need additional sounds you can buy Kurzweil K2600 sound packs like KPower which also work on the K2661.
You can't really compare 2 synths that way... I understand whta you mean and i do have the same sensation but the only way to check it is to use the same patch on both synths and record them with the midi notes on a proper sound card. Then you can really tell and i think the difference isnt that huge when done this way
Having owned many Kurzweils, I will add that I think the best sounding of them all is the original K2000. The K2600 sounds great compared to the newer machines, but the original K2000 has an unparalleled warmth and organic feel for not only the kurzweil line, but compared to any other digital synth. You will not find another digital Synth with the amount of soul the K2000 has, regardless of its limitations. I suggest you pick one up to try it out as they are at the cheapest they will ever be right now. The K2600 sounds much cleaner, but the K2000 just has a raw sound that I prefer a great deal.
I've heard a couple people say this but I own a K2000S and then bought a K2661. Before selling the K2000, I compared some patches and the differences to me were negligible. The K2661 sounds incredible. If I want to dirty the sound up a bit there's plenty of ways to do so.
Hi Mariusz the sound of the K2600 and k2661 is 100% identical providing you get the k2600 with the contemporary ROM added. The only main difference is the keys on the k2600 are nicer for piano feel as they are weighted.
@@SanctuaryLife I have both and I think the K2661 has a 'tighter' sounding bass. They are very close sounding but technically the 2661 is cleaner. You are splitting hairs, but after spending years with both, I have grown to prefer the K2661 sound over the K2600. I take the 2661 out, the 2600 stays at home...easier to carry. Normal person will never hear the difference.
Good observation and same here. I’ve just bought a Nord Wave 2 so will be putting up a demo video of that pads on that soon. I’m on the fence about the k2700, I think from what I see it sounds like the PC4, it may even use the same engine which would be disappointing. I’ll keep an eye out in prices.
Keep looking mate. Try putting in the model as a saved search in eBay. Just search for it then click save search. You’ll get email alerts on those when it pops up. Make sure you tick world wide.
The dryness you can probably fix easily by adjusting the effect level/mix. Maybe they provided more dry patches in the newer models because some professionals prefer adding effects in post production instead. The first patch you played on K26xx sounded overly wet, almost like you would have an erroneous connection with inverted phase between left and right, which sounds horrible. About the thinness - I'm sure the frequency response of the hardware of both new and old are perfect. The sound designer for the new factory patches might have a preference for thinner sounds, or maybe in modern synths the requirement of having thousands of patches is more important than quality. This leads to sound designers having only little time to design a patch. You can always design your own patches and samples to have as wide and wet sound as you like.
In hindsight I've probably been a bit harsh on the new Kurzweil team I know they are quite small and limited in what they can do with the software. I tend to be a bit nostalgic which is probably part of my love for the older sound. But having said that, the new synth was extremely dry, none of the music I worked on worked out well at all. You may be right though, maybe its geared towards designers who like a clean sound. I tend to feel uninspired with very clean sounds, as most of my work ends up muddled and lofi by choice. I am super glad Kurzweil still exists, I'd love to see them do well.
@@SanctuaryLife Yes. But note that it is not the software or the synth engine at fault. It is just the factory patches that ship with new synths that are not as juicy as they used to be. I can load K2500 patches (factory and my own) to the new K2700 (with a lot of manual work correcting the import flaws) and they sound identical if you bypass the effects, or edit the effects to match. There is only one exception, the LPGATE has disappeared from the synth engine, so those sounds are very difficult to reproduce. That is a shame as the attack envelope can not be programmed accurately enough to make lowpass filter with a fast attack, like the LPGATE seems to be.
This is just SO SO SO SO TRUE! I have owned K2000 and currently a K2500R. I have also owned the PC3 and in the end I sold it. It does NOT sound the same as the previous K Series Kurzweil's. (they are not built to the same standard either as I have worked on many) The K2700 also bears no relationship sonically either to the original K Series. Original K Series sounds do NOT load into modern Kurzweil's either and they certainly do not load into the 2700 either. Reason is the architecture is different and they basically cannot. There is something sublime about my K2500 sound. It's deep, powerful and emotional, and I can feel it in the floor of my control room! If you are lucky enough to own an original K Series Kurzweil then keep it please and never part with it. New ones will NOT replace it as some may think. If you sell it or thinking of doing so, you will regret it and you may miss the opportunity forever to get that sound back. I have got 16 hardware synths here and some are pretty amazing but I would have to rate the K2500R for its sound very high alongside the top 1 or 2. While newer Kurzweil's might have deeper VAST programming options, in the end it is how great the sound is and you will find that the older K Series still have a certain sound that the new ones lack. The K2500 is actually the best K2000 they ever made. They rebuilt it from the ground up and I have had both here at the same time and I found the K2500 sounded superior to the K2000 sound actually. It's got a bigger power supply, double the voices and they improved many aspects of the K2000 a lot with the K2500. K2600 and 2661 were just a few refinements up from the K2500.
Very well said! Thanks for sharing. May I ask, did you manage to locate the Contemporary and Orchestral ROMS for the K2500? I think these were available. Let's hope Kurzweil some day comes across this thread, re hires one of the old timers from the 90s who made them great and puts them in a design lead position so they can bring back all the things that made these great sounding as they were.
@@SanctuaryLife I think that person was Ray Kurzweil himself. I never got the contemporary and orchestral ROM boards for the K2500. I suppose they would be good to pick up. Not sure they are around so much today though. Is it a worthwhile addition to the K2500R. I mean I just love it the way it sounds now. People are releasing new banks of sounds now for these K series models as well and I must say the sound programming is extraordinary.
Hi there thanks I am considering playing with a few sample packs if there are any for purchase. Are you talking about EQ in the Kurzweil or EQ in the DAW?
I have a k2600x and a PC3K8. Had them since about 2011. I kind of mildly preferred the K2600 action for a while but have long since warmed up to the PC3K's keybed. It isn't perfect but it is pretty good for lots of things. In terms of sound I think it might just be a matter of programming. The PC3K sounds pretty similar to the K2600. It can load most of the K2x series patches and I have a bunch. I don't know about the PC4. I might hesitate equivocating those two. I know Kurzweil kind of messed up the phaser algorithm in KDFX when going from k2600 to the PC3 series but the rest of it pretty similar. I cut my teeth on some of the Barb stuff. Not sure if you've seen his channel? He manages to get some good sounds out the PC3. Here: ua-cam.com/video/W0kgIkkr-2A/v-deo.html
Hi mate I take your word for this one as my experience on the earlier PC3 is limited. Basically back in the year 2002 or so, I spent hours upon hours as a broke young lad playing with both the K2600 and the PC3 in a Melbourne store called Mannys, as I had a limited budget and needed to pick one, it quickly became apparent to me that the PC3 sounded different to the K2600. While the PC3 seemed sharper it seemed to lack character. I couldn’t put my finger on it at the time needless to say I didn’t like the darker sound of the 2600 at the time either as my young mind wasn’t ready for it. I wanted something punchy and fancy so ended up buying the korg triton LE instead. I recall there was a patch I liked on the early version of the PC3 called dolphin dreaming or something really cool sound. I’d love to play with the early version of the PC3 some more you may be right.
@@SanctuaryLife That's funny. I bought my PC3K from Bavas in Sydney. And the K2600 from someone in inner NSW. As far as I know only differences are the new VAST has 32 layers and they added the VA1 engine (my K2600 doesn't have that). Converters are probably a little newer though. If you wanted to take that variable out of the equation you could go via digital out through a common DAC. That would simplify the comparison somewhat as it takes the I/O differences out of the picture. But if you really want to know what the differences are between the two Dave Weiser is the guy to email. He can tell you exactly what they did on the PC3K and how it compares to the K2x series. I suspect it's in the programming though. You might have a bit more headroom on the PC3 and you know how touchy gain staging is in VAST. A little bit goes a long way. With modern converters you get more dynamic range and this is both a blessing and a curse a little bit because everybody almost always overdoes it on the top end. I have a bunch of Lexicon reverbs and I find unless I have a low pass filter after each reverb on each send it all builds up over time and you end up with a track that's just too bright. Warmth is interpreted as HF roll off a lot of the time I think. In the case of the Lexicon reverbs I find that I almost always have to be more aggressive with the roll off than I think otherwise there is build up later. Like think 3khz or less. So could be something like that too. I.e. just more dynamic range. But yeah email Dave Weiser for definitive answers on hardware differences that might account for what you're experiencing. But I would try to compare same patches side-by-side with a digital out on both synths and a common DAC.
@@SanctuaryLife PC3 debuted in 2008. In 2002, only PC2 was available, VERY different than PC3, especially after all 20+ PC3 OS updates substantially transformed it. The K2661 wasn't even available till end 2003/early 2004.
It would be more interesting when you import your favourite K2661 sounds into PC4 and let the daw play the instruments. That way the key action would be out of the way and it would be a real comparison.
I actually Isolated the recorded sounds in Cubase as separate tracks, would you prefer next time I do a video that you can't hear the keyboard as I kept some of the live sound on the camera which captured that.
@@SanctuaryLife no, its more about the reaction of the sound to the keybed and playing the exact same notes. Just to concentrate on the details of the sound engine … it would be nice to hear exactly what K2661 and PC4 do when they try to do the exact same thing.
Hi Jeff I just sold my PC4, I put it up for sale just after I made this video, I was so dismayed after doing a few songs with it and just finding out the pads I’d used had no real core to them, the songs I made were quite empty as a result. I currently have a k2600 and a k2661 with some extra sound packs installed (no sampler required, uses sysex midi). These are seeing plenty of use, mainly the k2661 with the k2600 being the backup if one needs to ever be repaired. I am considering whether to pick up a K2700 at some point in the future to do a similar test but I’m not sure if it’s going to have the same problems with the thin sounding engine? I may if I see it on sale at the right price That being said I honestly feel the Nord keyboards are possibly the most useful modern keyboard if you want something that is brand new and will help to give your music an edge and be creatively different yet have a powerful full sound. For this I’ve got the Nord Wave 2, and the Nord Lead A1. Both have beautiful sounds I’ve just made a video showing the beauty of the Nord Wave 2: Nord Wave 2 Demo - The Best Sounds ua-cam.com/video/UaRsfsZSN4k/v-deo.html
@@SanctuaryLife Thanks for the reply. Were the PC4 pads that disappointed you the identical patches/programs that you had in the K2600/K2661? And what happened to your Forte and PC3 keyboards? (I'll check the Nord link.)
Ya I know what you mean that was by consern having dead sound not with the 💖 and soul of true dynamic sound . I am going to have so much fun the the Kurzweil I have bort from you can't wait😃
The new Kurzweils still use VAST. It's actually GREATLY expanded. Sadly, the sound quality is nowhere near as rich, which is par for the course for every Synth/Sampler manufacturer on the planet. Japanese and Korean construction on the older gear, China and Taiwan on the newer stuff. The same goes for Roland, Akai, Yamaha, etc. It's a shame, because the new Kurzweils take the VAST concept and blast it into the stratosphere. For example, the original k2000 and K2500 had one layer of VAST processing (Drum layers are different). The K2600/K2661 added Triple-Mode, giving you 3 layers. The new machines have 32 layers, including FM and the Virtual Analog VA1 synth. You can take any layer and route it through any other layer, through the VAST DSP processing, and continue onward through more layers. You can rewire the blocks in the VAST algorithms now (you could not change the routing on the older machines). You can use any layer/layers as an operator in the FM layers. You can route the FM layers though any VAST DSP layer. You can use a sample as an FM operator, and MODULATE SAMPLES AGAINST EACH OTHER USING THE FM engine. That in itself is really revolutionary, and I've yet to see any videos demonstrating it. The new Kurzweils are so deep as far as sound design goes, it's mind-blowing. So, while they might sound thin playing presets, I highly recommend getting into sound design and learning how to program them. That's where the real magic of these machines lies.
Why the k2xxx sounds then better fat and gritty and with a character presence, no lost in the mix…? Guess the concept on old converters and sincerely dunno what else…maybe old chios? In a pure synthesis way the new pc4-k2700 is some amazing but in the end sound lack of emotions…i sold my k2600RS longtime ago and i miss it sooo much! Time to get a K2661 before price will rise up!
Absolutely love the 2661 I have one as well as two upgraded k2000s. brilliant synthesizers.
A beautiful man with a wonderful presents and the gentle domina and a lovely honesty
My strong guess is that what you're hearing is the later Kurzs' convertors have less harmonic distortion and saturation, as I've seen in tests (a K2500 vs K2700 video).
That’s why I still prefer to take what was already approved through the time.
B I N G O mate! there is also different something in the ASICs i bet…
the K2661 also has the later converter technology, delta sigma. The K2000 to K2600 has multi-bit R2R Dacs offering more punch, warmer sound - but non-linear in the low-end. The K2661 they switched over to delta sigma, they could have done so earlier but did not - the R2R multibit are more expensive and associated circuitory.
So its not just the converters something else has changed in the later line.
Proud owner of a K2661 with sampling option. I own 10 different synthesizers but the K2661 is the one I lusted after more than any other since it was new.....but it was out of my price range back then. I was finally able to find one with the sampling option for a decent price about 5 years ago.
Very cool. Look after that beauty.
I have the same, the hardware sampling option is really a rarity.
@@Iofflight78 For sure. It took years of checking Ebay and Reverb for one with sampling to come up.
@@Abruzzo333 I can imagine. I managed to snag one in 2010 before they ran out at sweetwater. I wish I'd had the foresight to get the vintage keys ROM as well.
well after watching this I fired up my old k2600xs in the basement. There is no doubt about it !!! It sounds so much more fuller than my pc3x. I think I will hold off on the k2700. If they just modernized the k2600 XS they would have a mind blowing synth!!!
Great to hear it, hang on to that gem I’ve just finished loading mine with some fresh new sound packs you don’t even need the sampler for it just loads in via the midi cables. I don’t think I’ll get the 2700 either as it uses the PC4 engine which I’m now trying to sell so I think it’s just a PC4 with a few extra bills and whistles.
I agree with you....but I think they are cutting cost in several places to keep up with the competition as Kurzweil does not sell as many keyboards as the Big Three...
I think people have been complaining about the lower bit order conversion and design limits of the older hardware not being present on newer hardware. It’s a common complaint with newer hardware just and people love the warm of vinyl records where audio has to be compressed to fit the dynamic range of the technology.
What you’re used to is what you prefer. The thing is you can bit crush and compress the newer hardware to get that same generalized sound. Filters, pedals, and VSTs can create those conditions.
Agree. I found my pc3k8 to outclass the k2661 in every aspect. I hope to get my hands on the k2700 soon.
This one of my favorite videos because I get to see you more in this
I totally agree with you. I own both K2661 and Forte.
New VSAT machines sound like something is missing, which is tricky and subtle to put into words. But we can definitely tell old machines have more solid sound than new ones. Do A/B comparison between the old and new, and this will sink in.
Thanks for writing in. I’ve heard it may be the newer oscillators that have taken away from the k series. I hope Kurzweil finds all of our feedback some day and builds a k2800 dream machine with all of the legacy sounds, plus a few hundred new ones. New screen and rom and ram upgrades and that should be the perfect machine for us.
@@SanctuaryLife the crazy thing is the K2700 should be exactly that. Hopefully it’s not another PC evolution i.e. a “PC4K”. Thanks for your honest video. In the few recent K2700 videos, I’ve seen the reviewer report that it’s great, but their body language and hesitation is obviously contradictory to their words.
Sounds good
there is a spark in your eyes as you talk about what you are passionate about
The old kurzweils are really special certainly touched my heart which you picked up on :-)
Your voice dose change sounds younger when you are talking to me he he😘
I have the k2000 , k2600 , Pc3k6, and the Pc3 . The only thing better on the Pc3k is the Electric Piano sounds. The 2600 is so fat and mellow ! The 2600 needs more ram and sample memory...flash memory would be nice. More location for sounds and I would be good to go. I love what you can do with the 32 layers. You can make sounds as thick as you need them and place them anywhere on the keyboard. I hardly see any Kurzweils out on the road, mostly Yamaha, Roland and Korg. I also own at least 2 of all of those keyboard also along with a Nord Electra 3. I have been doing this for a long long time so I know how they all sound. On the road I carry the Pc3k6, Yamaha Es6, and in my rack I have a Korg wavestation SR and an Emu Proteus 2000. The kurzweils make excellent keyboard controllers for live show.....nothing else come close ! I am looking to replace my Pc3k6 with a Pc3k7 as i really need the extra keys at the bottom. After over 20 yrs with Kurzweil I still don't know all the things it will do. Good luck fellow Keyboarders....stay in touch. E Wayne
Well, I recently bought a completely new PC3k8 and ROMs GERMAN GRAND D + KORE64 in the store, which I want to install. So, the question is, could you tell me which SOUND EDITOR I will need to use later? There are only 3 of them: 1) EDITOR PC3, 2) PC3k and 3) PC3A. It seems to me that after installing both extensions PC3k becomes PC3A, ain't it? Thanks!
Great findings! My K2600 with Sampling Option and KDFX is still a Midi-Master-Controller and Sound-Engine on my Desk. Even the KDFX it's worth it in 2024! Once i did the K2000 Demo at the "Frankfurter Music Messe". But i lost my Notator Song file on some Floppy Disc over the years...The K2600 was my main Keyboard in a live-setup on tour in Europe. I even had a Nr.1 Hit in Nigeria produced with the K2600 :-) But i miss my DX7, EMU EMAX SE, Ensoniq VFX Setup i used in the early 90ies...
It’s hard to believe we would miss our old gear, when back in the day, we saw all the new fancy stuff come out and felt the need to upgrade. Sound is amazing, and it’s the older stuff that really is priceless because the new gear can’t replicate it.
You remind me of myself when I first got a Kurzweil piano at 12 I spent hours playing with the sounds which my def shelty dog🐶 would bark with excitement to the sounds coming from the keyboard
It could have something to do with the sample interpolation on the older k series. I own a K2500S, and one of the things that I appreciate about the sound is how the low end, and the overall depth of a sample, doesn't get lost when I play samples in the lower octaves. Even playing a sound at the lowest possible pitch until it becomes one long wave cycle can sound pretty damn good.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, curious, have you had or tried a k2600? It should have the same depth and fullness of sound as the 2000 & 2500 from what I’ve heard from others. I’ve never owned a 2500 so I don’t know for sure. I know that after the 2600/2661 as you go into the pc3’s and fortes the sound is very thin.
@@SanctuaryLife Yeah I've had the K2661 and the K2000. The K2661 is most definitely just as full sounding, and is actually slightly better because of it's balanced outputs. The balanced outputs give it a hotter signal, so it's got a better overall output and dynamic range.
@@MichaelRivera718 Ok that's awesome mate. I have had K2600's for over a decade. Just recently managed to pick up a K2661 so I am extremely happy that the sound is the same as the K2600. Just curious why you stuck with the K2500 but not the K2661, I have never tried the K2500 is it worth it for someone like me? I am assuming it has a totally different set of patches?
@@SanctuaryLife I had sold my K2661 ten years ago, just cause I needed the money at the time. Last year I decided to buy another one but I noticed that none had the sampling option like the one I had, so I bought a K2000S. Then a few months later I saw a K2500S with the KDFX option for cheap, so I bought it and sold the K2000. I prefer to sample into the keyboard itself, and the feature set of the 2500 is closer to the 2600. Nowadays its hard to find 2600S, and rare to find a K2661 with the sampling option, but aside from that I'd say theres not much benefit to getting the 2500 if you have the 2661 already.
@@MichaelRivera718 interesting I don’t know much about sampling on this k2661, but I noticed a scsi port at the back of it. Could you just plug a Zip drive in and sample off that? Assuming they all have the scsi port.
I have one that I loaned to my friend for years, and he just dropped dead a few weeks ago, and now I'm having a nightmare getting it back. the girlfriend that he lived with won't get back to me. I bought it new when they came out in Studio City Music in LA and it had all the options. I really want that thing back. it cost me 3K at the time.
@@InFamousProductions sorry to hear that and my condolences. Try to get it back at all costs. If it makes you feel any better I sold my small one the k2661 on eBay and it got damaged in shipping. I ended up losing the synth and got no money for it as I was forced to refund the buyer as well after paying $1000 postage. I will never sell a synth on eBay again. Guard it with your life when you get it back 🥰
I wish i could find the acoustic piano rom module for my 2661
I didn’t think there were additional ROM sticks for the K2661? It has the Contemporary ROM from the K2600 by default so contains all the pianos from it. If you need additional sounds you can buy Kurzweil K2600 sound packs like KPower which also work on the K2661.
@@SanctuaryLife i think it was called triple strike piano and it was a rom upgrade similar to the e piano rom ?
Is the thinness due to the DA converters or changes in the main sound circuitry?
You can't really compare 2 synths that way... I understand whta you mean and i do have the same sensation but the only way to check it is to use the same patch on both synths and record them with the midi notes on a proper sound card. Then you can really tell and i think the difference isnt that huge when done this way
Having owned many Kurzweils, I will add that I think the best sounding of them all is the original K2000. The K2600 sounds great compared to the newer machines, but the original K2000 has an unparalleled warmth and organic feel for not only the kurzweil line, but compared to any other digital synth. You will not find another digital Synth with the amount of soul the K2000 has, regardless of its limitations. I suggest you pick one up to try it out as they are at the cheapest they will ever be right now. The K2600 sounds much cleaner, but the K2000 just has a raw sound that I prefer a great deal.
I would love to try the 2000, I didn’t realise they could be so appreciated. I will certainly give that some thought thanks for the input.
I've heard a couple people say this but I own a K2000S and then bought a K2661. Before selling the K2000, I compared some patches and the differences to me were negligible. The K2661 sounds incredible. If I want to dirty the sound up a bit there's plenty of ways to do so.
@@SanctuaryLife poll
So the old 2661 has the rich full sound and everything after that is thin or digital sounding?
Yes the K2000, K2500, K2600, K2661 all have the full rich sound, K2661 was the last one released with those oscillators just after 2006.
I loved watching you talk about Kurzweils :-))) oxox
Once I have some more time I will talk some more about them! 🌸☀️
Which is better for sound quality K2600 or K2661?
Hi Mariusz the sound of the K2600 and k2661 is 100% identical providing you get the k2600 with the contemporary ROM added. The only main difference is the keys on the k2600 are nicer for piano feel as they are weighted.
@@SanctuaryLife I have both and I think the K2661 has a 'tighter' sounding bass. They are very close sounding but technically the 2661 is cleaner. You are splitting hairs, but after spending years with both, I have grown to prefer the K2661 sound over the K2600. I take the 2661 out, the 2600 stays at home...easier to carry. Normal person will never hear the difference.
I've always loved the OG Kurzweils pre-Korea. Will you be doing a comparison like this with K2700 vs K2661 vs PC4?
Good observation and same here. I’ve just bought a Nord Wave 2 so will be putting up a demo video of that pads on that soon. I’m on the fence about the k2700, I think from what I see it sounds like the PC4, it may even use the same engine which would be disappointing. I’ll keep an eye out in prices.
I had the PC3x but I can’t say I can relate with the ”thin and dry” issue… 🤔
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
May I ask had you owned 2xxx series Kurzweils for reference?
Been looking for a k2661 but they never have the sampling option. :(
Keep looking mate. Try putting in the model as a saved search in eBay. Just search for it then click save search. You’ll get email alerts on those when it pops up. Make sure you tick world wide.
@@SanctuaryLife good idea. I’ve been keeping a web page open and just refresh everyday. Lol
The dryness you can probably fix easily by adjusting the effect level/mix. Maybe they provided more dry patches in the newer models because some professionals prefer adding effects in post production instead. The first patch you played on K26xx sounded overly wet, almost like you would have an erroneous connection with inverted phase between left and right, which sounds horrible. About the thinness - I'm sure the frequency response of the hardware of both new and old are perfect. The sound designer for the new factory patches might have a preference for thinner sounds, or maybe in modern synths the requirement of having thousands of patches is more important than quality. This leads to sound designers having only little time to design a patch. You can always design your own patches and samples to have as wide and wet sound as you like.
In hindsight I've probably been a bit harsh on the new Kurzweil team I know they are quite small and limited in what they can do with the software. I tend to be a bit nostalgic which is probably part of my love for the older sound. But having said that, the new synth was extremely dry, none of the music I worked on worked out well at all. You may be right though, maybe its geared towards designers who like a clean sound. I tend to feel uninspired with very clean sounds, as most of my work ends up muddled and lofi by choice. I am super glad Kurzweil still exists, I'd love to see them do well.
@@SanctuaryLife Yes. But note that it is not the software or the synth engine at fault. It is just the factory patches that ship with new synths that are not as juicy as they used to be. I can load K2500 patches (factory and my own) to the new K2700 (with a lot of manual work correcting the import flaws) and they sound identical if you bypass the effects, or edit the effects to match. There is only one exception, the LPGATE has disappeared from the synth engine, so those sounds are very difficult to reproduce. That is a shame as the attack envelope can not be programmed accurately enough to make lowpass filter with a fast attack, like the LPGATE seems to be.
This is just SO SO SO SO TRUE! I have owned K2000 and currently a K2500R. I have also owned the PC3 and in the end I sold it. It does NOT sound the same as the previous K Series Kurzweil's. (they are not built to the same standard either as I have worked on many) The K2700 also bears no relationship sonically either to the original K Series. Original K Series sounds do NOT load into modern Kurzweil's either and they certainly do not load into the 2700 either. Reason is the architecture is different and they basically cannot. There is something sublime about my K2500 sound. It's deep, powerful and emotional, and I can feel it in the floor of my control room! If you are lucky enough to own an original K Series Kurzweil then keep it please and never part with it. New ones will NOT replace it as some may think. If you sell it or thinking of doing so, you will regret it and you may miss the opportunity forever to get that sound back. I have got 16 hardware synths here and some are pretty amazing but I would have to rate the K2500R for its sound very high alongside the top 1 or 2.
While newer Kurzweil's might have deeper VAST programming options, in the end it is how great the sound is and you will find that the older K Series still have a certain sound that the new ones lack. The K2500 is actually the best K2000 they ever made. They rebuilt it from the ground up and I have had both here at the same time and I found the K2500 sounded superior to the K2000 sound actually. It's got a bigger power supply, double the voices and they improved many aspects of the K2000 a lot with the K2500. K2600 and 2661 were just a few refinements up from the K2500.
Very well said! Thanks for sharing. May I ask, did you manage to locate the Contemporary and Orchestral ROMS for the K2500? I think these were available.
Let's hope Kurzweil some day comes across this thread, re hires one of the old timers from the 90s who made them great and puts them in a design lead position so they can bring back all the things that made these great sounding as they were.
@@SanctuaryLife I think that person was Ray Kurzweil himself. I never got the contemporary and orchestral ROM boards for the K2500. I suppose they would be good to pick up. Not sure they are around so much today though. Is it a worthwhile addition to the K2500R. I mean I just love it the way it sounds now. People are releasing new banks of sounds now for these K series models as well and I must say the sound programming is extraordinary.
The PC4 patches need the EQ applied to the patches. Low boost and a little cut off top then check out.
Hi there thanks I am considering playing with a few sample packs if there are any for purchase. Are you talking about EQ in the Kurzweil or EQ in the DAW?
i REALLY ENJOYED THIS
but the EP's on pc4 are better than those of pc3, which are thin / lack body / sustain in higher pitches
I have a k2600x and a PC3K8. Had them since about 2011. I kind of mildly preferred the K2600 action for a while but have long since warmed up to the PC3K's keybed. It isn't perfect but it is pretty good for lots of things. In terms of sound I think it might just be a matter of programming. The PC3K sounds pretty similar to the K2600. It can load most of the K2x series patches and I have a bunch. I don't know about the PC4. I might hesitate equivocating those two. I know Kurzweil kind of messed up the phaser algorithm in KDFX when going from k2600 to the PC3 series but the rest of it pretty similar. I cut my teeth on some of the Barb stuff. Not sure if you've seen his channel? He manages to get some good sounds out the PC3. Here:
ua-cam.com/video/W0kgIkkr-2A/v-deo.html
Hi mate I take your word for this one as my experience on the earlier PC3 is limited. Basically back in the year 2002 or so, I spent hours upon hours as a broke young lad playing with both the K2600 and the PC3 in a Melbourne store called Mannys, as I had a limited budget and needed to pick one, it quickly became apparent to me that the PC3 sounded different to the K2600. While the PC3 seemed sharper it seemed to lack character. I couldn’t put my finger on it at the time needless to say I didn’t like the darker sound of the 2600 at the time either as my young mind wasn’t ready for it. I wanted something punchy and fancy so ended up buying the korg triton LE instead. I recall there was a patch I liked on the early version of the PC3 called dolphin dreaming or something really cool sound. I’d love to play with the early version of the PC3 some more you may be right.
@@SanctuaryLife That's funny. I bought my PC3K from Bavas in Sydney. And the K2600 from someone in inner NSW.
As far as I know only differences are the new VAST has 32 layers and they added the VA1 engine (my K2600 doesn't have that). Converters are probably a little newer though. If you wanted to take that variable out of the equation you could go via digital out through a common DAC. That would simplify the comparison somewhat as it takes the I/O differences out of the picture.
But if you really want to know what the differences are between the two Dave Weiser is the guy to email. He can tell you exactly what they did on the PC3K and how it compares to the K2x series.
I suspect it's in the programming though. You might have a bit more headroom on the PC3 and you know how touchy gain staging is in VAST. A little bit goes a long way. With modern converters you get more dynamic range and this is both a blessing and a curse a little bit because everybody almost always overdoes it on the top end. I have a bunch of Lexicon reverbs and I find unless I have a low pass filter after each reverb on each send it all builds up over time and you end up with a track that's just too bright. Warmth is interpreted as HF roll off a lot of the time I think.
In the case of the Lexicon reverbs I find that I almost always have to be more aggressive with the roll off than I think otherwise there is build up later. Like think 3khz or less.
So could be something like that too. I.e. just more dynamic range.
But yeah email Dave Weiser for definitive answers on hardware differences that might account for what you're experiencing. But I would try to compare same patches side-by-side with a digital out on both synths and a common DAC.
@@SanctuaryLife PC3 debuted in 2008. In 2002, only PC2 was available, VERY different than PC3, especially after all 20+ PC3 OS updates substantially transformed it. The K2661 wasn't even available till end 2003/early 2004.
It would be more interesting when you import your favourite K2661 sounds into PC4 and let the daw play the instruments. That way the key action would be out of the way and it would be a real comparison.
I actually Isolated the recorded sounds in Cubase as separate tracks, would you prefer next time I do a video that you can't hear the keyboard as I kept some of the live sound on the camera which captured that.
@@SanctuaryLife no, its more about the reaction of the sound to the keybed and playing the exact same notes. Just to concentrate on the details of the sound engine … it would be nice to hear exactly what K2661 and PC4 do when they try to do the exact same thing.
I agfree, I am considering selling my PC4. Bugt wondering is trhere a way to recrate some of the patches from a programing.
You could play the sound into a free sampler vst plugin app like halion then you won’t lose it permanently but it won’t be exact.
Not much people appreciate k2661, and they sell for 400-500 euros here in Serbia. I think these eat for breakfast Fantoms and Tritons.
That's insane. They run at least double that amount in the states.
les sons du 2600 ont plus d'effets c'est tout ! il suffit d'en rajouter sur le PC4 et à mon avis on aura au moins le même résultat .
Do you still own your PC4, Forte, and PC3?
Hi Jeff I just sold my PC4, I put it up for sale just after I made this video, I was so dismayed after doing a few songs with it and just finding out the pads I’d used had no real core to them, the songs I made were quite empty as a result.
I currently have a k2600 and a k2661 with some extra sound packs installed (no sampler required, uses sysex midi). These are seeing plenty of use, mainly the k2661 with the k2600 being the backup if one needs to ever be repaired.
I am considering whether to pick up a K2700 at some point in the future to do a similar test but I’m not sure if it’s going to have the same problems with the thin sounding engine? I may if I see it on sale at the right price
That being said I honestly feel the Nord keyboards are possibly the most useful modern keyboard if you want something that is brand new and will help to give your music an edge and be creatively different yet have a powerful full sound. For this I’ve got the Nord Wave 2, and the Nord Lead A1. Both have beautiful sounds I’ve just made a video showing the beauty of the Nord Wave 2:
Nord Wave 2 Demo - The Best Sounds
ua-cam.com/video/UaRsfsZSN4k/v-deo.html
@@SanctuaryLife Thanks for the reply. Were the PC4 pads that disappointed you the identical patches/programs that you had in the K2600/K2661? And what happened to your Forte and PC3 keyboards? (I'll check the Nord link.)
What a piece of junk you’ve revealed the PC4 to be! Great job!
Love my 2600xs. Just hearing the “Klunk” of the PC4 keyboard is a turnoff.
Spectacular hehe
I always thought older Kurzweils sounded better, also post PC3 series looks like it was designed by all-around challenged person.
Ya I know what you mean that was by consern having dead sound not with the 💖 and soul of true dynamic sound . I am going to have so much fun the the Kurzweil I have bort from you can't wait😃
Yes it definitely has a soul unlike some others!
The new Kurzweils still use VAST. It's actually GREATLY expanded. Sadly, the sound quality is nowhere near as rich, which is par for the course for every Synth/Sampler manufacturer on the planet. Japanese and Korean construction on the older gear, China and Taiwan on the newer stuff. The same goes for Roland, Akai, Yamaha, etc. It's a shame, because the new Kurzweils take the VAST concept and blast it into the stratosphere. For example, the original k2000 and K2500 had one layer of VAST processing (Drum layers are different). The K2600/K2661 added Triple-Mode, giving you 3 layers. The new machines have 32 layers, including FM and the Virtual Analog VA1 synth. You can take any layer and route it through any other layer, through the VAST DSP processing, and continue onward through more layers. You can rewire the blocks in the VAST algorithms now (you could not change the routing on the older machines). You can use any layer/layers as an operator in the FM layers. You can route the FM layers though any VAST DSP layer. You can use a sample as an FM operator, and MODULATE SAMPLES AGAINST EACH OTHER USING THE FM engine. That in itself is really revolutionary, and I've yet to see any videos demonstrating it. The new Kurzweils are so deep as far as sound design goes, it's mind-blowing. So, while they might sound thin playing presets, I highly recommend getting into sound design and learning how to program them. That's where the real magic of these machines lies.
Why the k2xxx sounds then better fat and gritty and with a character presence, no lost in the mix…? Guess the concept on old converters and sincerely dunno what else…maybe old chios? In a pure synthesis way the new pc4-k2700 is some amazing but in the end sound lack of emotions…i sold my k2600RS longtime ago and i miss it sooo much! Time to get a K2661 before price will rise up!
Yes your right it sounds like it is suffocating he he
Yes :-) but not the k2600!
@@SanctuaryLife I have sent you email can't text out of credit
💗
Loving having a iPhone so I can listen dance and meditate to your music all day all night long
How can I not love you ❤️
You look like Bruce Willis