i recently built a s5 and opted for the campagnolo record mechanical group set i posted the photo of the bike in a group of cervelo s5 fans and some people were surprised and others defended the superiority of electronic groups, i think that in the near future people will lose the technique of using mechanical gearshifts, young people love their electronic groupsets and find it heresy and tacky to opt for mechanical groupsets 😅
Pretty happy with my 10 year old custom Cyfac XCR (ie stainless) on Chorus 11, sure it has 42mm Reynolds Carbon Tubs, Oh, it is 62cm and still only 7.3kg ready to ride. (I mean, maybe I am not fussy, I still have a LOOK from 2003 wit DA 8 speed that still makes me happy)
My take is a bit like the scene from Armageddon when Bruce Willis is ripping apart the moon buggy designed by rocket scientists asking...what the hell is this for? and casting useless bits aside as he strips it down to what's actually needed. Whether it be old or new tech, it still bamboozled me that you have to completely remove a cable to replace a shifter, I mean, seriously, that's the easiest of problems to solve... and yet...
PS: Remember 10 years ago when the bike companies told us we needed integrated seat posts, Simon's suspicions are not exactly unfounded, of course the bike companies want us to consume new, but pretty much useless technology upgrades, that is how they make profit.
I agree. Less carbon, less proprietary parts (wtf happened to the 27.2 or 31.6 seatpost standard on roadbikes), less planned obsolescence the list goes on. . .
I’m able to maintain my bike very easily too. I just toss it at a mechanic and pay them to do that. That’s a very effective way of maintaining a bike too.
@@oj978 I don’t think cycling is expensive as it is. Do you? You don’t have to ride the latest and greatest. The indoor bike I train on for intervals is a decathlon triban 120 with microshift, costs less than $400. Bought it during the height of the pandemic. The bike I enjoy riding for the pure sake of noodling around leisurely coats 15k. Both serve different purpose. Or is the cost conscious cyclist too elitist to consider a microshift 11kg bike worthy of being ridden? Let’s be honest, cycling isn’t more expensive now than it was in the past. It’s that cyclists want expensive stuff at budget price, and can’t accept that price changes means that they can no longer pay peanuts yet still get something better than monkeys.
Bikes should have a DIY repairability score. It's just fun to have your own workshop, it can save on LBS costs, and you have more supply alternatives compared to the high-tech proprietary parts. Speed is absolutely secondary for ordinary mortal human beings.
I have a Cannondale Synapse Carbon Disk, which came as a Tiagra Mechanical, but now has Ultegra Di2 and carbon wheels. I have done all the upgrades myself. It does not have an integrated cockpit but does have integrated cables through the frame and it is all fine and works great. The only remaining parts from the original bike are the frame, fork, headset (I have bought a spare, but haven't needed it yet after 11000 miles) and the seat binder. I have learnt new bike mechanic skills as it was my first disc brake bike, but it is a great bike to ride, very comfortable and stops so much better with the disc brakes than any rim brake bike I have had before. I think I am lucky having a model just before everything became very proprietary.
It's not that modern bikes suck it's that they are loaded with extra costs for features we don't necessarily want. Not all of us care about going faster, over everything else, as GCN frequently forgets. The extra cost of going a couple of miles an hour is honestly not worth it to most of us.
@@chrisjie2127 You can still buy rim brakes. A 105 rim groupset is avilable for less than £400, which is possibly the best value a groupset has ever been.
@@socialistcynic Yes there are options. But it's not what your average cyclist is pushed towards buying. Nor what someone who is new to cycling will be looking at. Instead they are looking at overpriced 10kg disc brake pieces of crap and will ultimately have a poor experience.
Why not give Simon a cutting edge climbing bike? Would have been a much more balanced comparison. And why not finish with seeing his reaction to being 10% quicker up the climb? Would have been really interesting to see what his reaction to that was. A really interesting idea, slightly let down by some questionable decisions.
I mean there is sort of a conspiracy, but it's not aimed at us but rather our money. if parts wear out, you have to buy new ones, if parts are incompatible that means you need to buy even more parts, or possibly even a new bike, and it means that you can only buy parts by the one company, because you can't mix and match brands. from the tech improvement perspective, parts wearing out is kind of good, because that lets them cycle out the old in favor of something that hopefully works better. shortens their R&D cycle. in a way this is what makes e-bikes good for combating the ultralight trends towards this artificially increased maintenance schedule, because these ultra light parts don't hold up to the torque of an e-bike motor
That’s just GCN gaslighting sheep with giving 0 power metrics and claiming to be faster, albeit feeling sluggish 😂 same type of gaslighting on Si’s previous video of tech comparisons. Show the power data if you are claiming to be transparent.
@@better.better the torque of an ebike motor? Sorry but if you start a sprint you probably put out 80+ Nm and that is above the average ebike motor torque.
@@pipapo3424 I’ll leave you with the biggest fact on the video “people are sheep they do as they are told”. Si claims climber Simon climbed 10% faster than ever on the heavier bike with zero metrics shared and here is noob Paul believing it like it’s the truth. 🤣 love to see it mate thanks for your comment!
If Simon's bike has doubled in replacement price, that is not a "trivial matter," as the presenter stated. Also, I'm with Simon on this one - we are being forced into buying replacement bikes for perfectly good bikes by the bike industry. And, no, most brands are dropping rim brake option frames from their range all the time.
I'm always envious when you release videos with the glorious weather in the UK. Makes me want to move there so I can consistently ride in the grey, gloomy, rainy conditions.
He calls it "sluggish" in the climb, but PRs the hill substantially. It goes to show how expectation colors our perception of our experiences. This is a huge factor in things like audio equipment, where people swear they can hear differences in equipment that they can't identify what's better if a blind comparison, where one doesn't know which piece of equipment is supposed to be better (almost always the more expensive one).
I bet he pushed more watts up the climb to keep with Simon though. One of my best times up a climb was on a steel bike because I was racing a douche haha. Doesnt mean that steel bike was faster than my race bikes though. CONTEXT! :)
Whilst humans are consistently flakey when it comes to judging speed, due to our confusing lots of high frequency vibrations with going faster. Audio is not really comparable, because folk's hearing ability varies an awful lot. I have noticed significant differences in audio kit, despite not knowing things had been changed. I also notice differences and problems in visual imagery too, when others are oblivious. But I've also worked with images and audio. Possibly *because*, I can note these differences. However, I couldn't tell the difference between strong regional Chinese accents, let along which of the very many different Chinese languages a person may be speaking. Just because folk can't tell a difference, this doesn't mean there are no differences. Price doesn't necessarily equate to better with audio or visual tech or anything really. But most folk are fooled by higher pricing and naively thinking it must be better.
@@durianrider2215 Even the most expensive bike in the world won't get you the same gains as a borderline deranged level of competitiveness. Every single rider you pass is a scrub and every single rider that has the nerve to either pass you or even just exist slightly further up the road than you is a cock, and I'll be damned if I'll let myself get outridden by some uppity cock.
I think for us mortals cycling is all about feeling and ease of maintenance. It does not matter how slow or fast the bike is. It needs to feel good and it needs to be easy to maintain. At least if you do your own maintenance. I stopped caring about speed or weight long time ago. I just ride what I like.
Well, it great if the bike is - or at least feels - faster. Yet, the latest features that promise to make you faster are mostly ridiculously expensive or are so delicate to set up and service that they lower your average speed to exactly zero, sometimes for days, because a pro mechanic has to take care of them.
Can i just say, having fallen out of love with alot of the sponsored/marketing content. Im very glad this video was made and the controversial opinion that goes against the cycling narrative. Very very good video.
@@gcn would love to see a fresh video on removing and installing Bottom brackets with a few tips on removal and installation of common types, what circumstances merit grease/retaining compound. Also a video with a guide on setting up some structured training sessions. Rather than just following zwift or the likes. A guide into what a normal week could like like for that weekend warrior/family man that gets between 5-8hrs a week on the bike
My biggest issue with modern tech is not how it rides, it's how you have to maintain it and how there's less and less intercompatibility every year. Some bikes are incredibly aero but lock you into a frameset and stem because of just how things go together. Can barely mix and match anything about the shifting anymore. Tire clearances are so small you're basically locked into one tire size on some bikes. You have to deal with tubeless sealant goop and brake fluids. Disc brakes have a million tiny screws on them for adjustments. Basically it's becoming more and more of an industry of getting a bike and then throwing away the entire thing after a couple years to get a completely new bike because you could carry over hardly anything from one to another anyway, and every time you get a new bike maintenance becomes more of a headache.
Don't forget the price. I get that quality isn't cheap but a new bicycle, which let's face it is a toy, should not be in the same price bracket as a used car
Absolutely right. My most modern group set is Shimano 7800, which I think is the best group set ever. All this electronic shifting, hydraulic brake stuff is just another way to get money from the punters and for 99.9% of users is entirely superfluous.
Absolutely! It is a disgrace and hardly the way to reduce waste. Still, it is possible to get frames with a normal stem/handlebar/headset, where it is possible to service the headset without bleeding brakes. However, when I hear my fellow club ride members talk about 'desirable' bikes, most are the aero/integrated stuff because of how it looks! Needless to say they all pay to get the bikes serviced, although no one competes. It also seems to affect more men than women for some reason... I hate the proprietary kit myself, and I would never get a bike with those components because of what you just said. I know people with those bikes from a few years ago and they can hardly get spares. Still, we have the option of not playing into it and simply 'reward' a manufacturer who does not go for planned obsolescence. Mavic is not going for hookless, for instance. I do hate the lack of standards in disc hubs though. Unless one sticks to a brand, calipers need to be realigned for every wheel swap! PS: I run discs and Di2 and they are an absolute godsend for my tiny injured hands. I brake and change gears with the tiniest movement, which makes a huge difference. I also commute in all weathers, including below zero. Braking is much better and I have no cables to service ever. I had to sell my rim bike because of my hands, but I would not see the need at all otherwise, especially if I didn't commute. My rim bike was also lighter, even though it had lower grade components. I now have a LOOK 765 Optimum+ which can take up to 42c tyres, so I ride all over the place with it. Heavy and not aero at all, but fits me very well and does everything I need from a bike. I ride loads but I don't compete though.
I have to strongly agree with Simon Warren's point about manufacturer marketing, production decisions and distribution forcing the so-called free market. You see this with the push to SUVs and pickups with cars just as you see it with bikes. But at least the bike manufacturers are pushing a brake tech that stops a bit faster in inclement weather.....
Car companies sell SUV's because people buy them. And because they are classified as light trucks or commercial vehicles, so are exempt a lot of the fuel efficiency and safety regulations - so they cost less. But mainly because people want the world to know what pillocks they are.
I think what was described was refinement in these new bikes. They feel sluggish and maybe boring because they are so refined. The fact Simon pulled 1 minute faster and in less than ideal weather is a testament to that. Ride what you enjoy and don't hate on the new or the old :).
The main point I took from this is, yes it might be quicker, but was it more enjoyable? If youre not a pro then surely the biggest factor is enjoyment. I can go out and kill myself chasing Strava KOMS but do I enjoy that type of ride more? Nope.
@@StephenHislop-r6hyes I do enjoy being fast and using less watts as it also means I can go farther which I care about since I love super long rides but there's only 24h a day in a weekend or holiday to squeeze that in. I wouldn't buy a super expensive hyperbikes ofc but even an intermediate tier light modern bike with a 105 groupset came a long way on adding to the enjoyment. Especially the climbs since there's a ton of it here in Japan with long mountain roads.
I think we all have our prejudices when it comes to bikes, I love the disc brakes and larger tyres but prefer a steel frame over aluminium or carbon. I think there is a degree of enforced obsolescence by bike and cycle equipment makers dropping provision for older tech, like rim brakes, to encourage riders to go out and buy a totally new system rather than just a new component just to maintain their profits margins. As cycling is touted as an environmentally friendly form of transport, I think this enforced obsolescence could be argued to run counter to that.
Yes, if everyone just serviced their bikes how on earth would they sell any more? Consumerism is largely about making one feel the 'need' to buy yeat another thing... PS: I run discs and Di2 and they are an absolute godsend for my tiny injured hands. I brake and change gears with the tiniest movement, which makes a huge difference. I also commute in all weathers, including below zero. Braking is much better and I have no cables to service ever. I had to swap my rim bike because of my hands, but I would not see the need at all otherwise. My rim bike was also lighter, even though it had lower grade components. I would have kept it for years.
I agree more with Si, I don't think they don't want to make high end rim brake components but that at the high end not enough people want them to justify the tooling, etc. There will be a cottage industry grow around high end rim brakes for those that want them, it sort of already exists, but what this guy is wanting is high end but affordable due to mass manufacturing, and that's just not going to stay.
@@nluisa Rim brakes are much easier to service and setup. Plus brake cables can last years if not abused. Disc brakes are superior in performance but it’s a big trade off in cost, weight and aerodynamics. Eventually we won’t get a choice when all half-decent bikes will be disc only.
Excellent episode! Huge thanks to both Simons! :) The thing is that while I love new tech, I can't really afford it, and that is a bit unfortunate. But when I'm on the road, doing the actual thing I love, cycling, I don't really think about upgrades (except when there is a problem with the gear). When I cycle uphill, I think about the hill and the performance, not that kilo of weight another 1500 euros would buy me. So yeah, I'd buy the new stuff if I had the money, but the actual fun of riding is more important for me than gear.
I always think that my losing several stones in weight would make the biggest difference! Luckily, riding my bike more (and more) is the way to do that.
Great comment. I don't really understand why people think electronic shifters are better than mechanical- a well set up mechanical shifter will shift instantly on the back and pretty much instantly with post shift adjustment on the front.
My take home form this is I'd like to see Simon Warren on the channel again. Maybe a series on classic rides/climbs in the UK? Perhaps taking some others to places they haven't riden before? Simon comes across well on camera and I'd love to hear about some nice routes.
Honestly I would rather just see some nice climbs than add some spurious 'racing/competition' element. I'm not interested in beating anyone other than myself and I would just like to see some new places. I have ridden Mam Nick and the views across Edale and Kinder are superb. I wasn't racing up so I had time to look at them!
but think from the producer perspective, if you producing wheels and rim wheels are about 3% percent of your all sales it's easy choice to quit from that product
I admire the fact that you talked about how hard it was and you couldn’t finished. I think many of us cyclist have hit this point and we struggle with admitting it or sometimes feel like total failures. But you went out there and gave it all which is what counts in my book. All the way from Texas /Mexico I send you a huge hug and pat on the back for the hard work !!!!
Great video and I can relate to Simon's views. As an older rider I have seen so many changes and large company marketing is the biggest reason for the high tech and cost as it helps their bottom line profits. Similar to HiFi, mobile phones and TVs, new models every year.... Love Si's facial expression and presentation skills, makes me smile.
Even though i don’t agree with Simon Warren, i think it’s really cool that GCN makes space for so many different opinions to be voiced in videos and alike. Great and very interesting video!
Yeah really cool like the video where they compared an old and a new bike without riding to the same power numbers effectively making it a pointless comparison rigged to favor the modern bike. But yeah they are so unbiased!
@@xAudiolith That was definitely a low point in GCN’s history. I’ll admit that video was so useless, but i also think this video shows that GCN is interested in voicing many opinions, and i can’t see what is biased in this one?
@@robinseeberg3715 It's disingenuous not because of the content of the video but because they are actively being sponsored by these bike brands and are essentially a mouthpiece for their sales department. As you can clearly see by how many "AD" logos they have on their thumbnails and how they blindly push for and position all this new tech including that recent video which to me is just the most obvious example. They can make as many videos like this as they want but how can you trust anything they put out on the topic while helping their sponsors sell their bikes in every other video. And I understand it everyone needs to pay their bills I just think it's a shame and quite frankly makes me embarassed to be a cycling fan when one of the biggest publications in our space is so blatantly biased while trying to portray some sort of semblance of authenticity. Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine but this to me negates the whole point of these sorts of videos. And as we saw in the past they only get rigged anyway to suggest in an underhand way that the new tech is superior in every way.
@@xAudiolith totally agree. Unfortunately there are way too many sheep in this world that have no critical thinking skills. I am fortunate enough to own 12 bikes ranging in value from around 1 -10k. I intermittently use them each week to do my same loop (100 minutes of riding) and there is quite literally no difference in times beyond a minute regardless of what bike I use and that is pushing an average of 300ish watts. All GCN is achieving is allowing large companies to rapidly rip off consumers with their "new tech". All this is doing is shrinking the cycling market over time by making it more and more inaccessible to genuine folk.
I've recently ordered a new, custom made, Italian steel bike with Campagnolo parts and rims. It's cheaper, lighter and more comfortable than most big brand offerings. The bike market has gone completely crazy.
Can I ask what you ordered? How was the full custom order process? I've been drooling over the Battaglin offerings for a couple of years now. Just need to commit!! 🙂
I have gone to custom steel bikes as well. I would feel like getting ripped off if I would have payed the same money for a disk brake electronically shifted carbon bike off the catalogs.
Nice!! I’ve gone back to steel, it’s an olmo giro with downtube shifters and old school gearing 23 is the lowest with a 39/53 up front, shimano rsx group set with mavic ma wheelset shod in vittoria corsa 23s and latex tubes, this bike cost me £185 plus £15 postage and I added the tyres, it’s a strength builder !!!!
Half true. I'd never buy a mountain bike with rim but a road bike I'm not biased either way. I'm in texas so it's dry but whenever it's rained I hated it riding rims
@@JeremyLawrence-imajezI will say that good rim brakes are perfectly competent especially in dry conditions, even in wet they're good if you're mindful about braking earlier. But of all the modern stuff like carbon aero tubeless electronic shifting etc. hydraulic disc brakes are for me the biggest benefit of modern tech. I can totally see why it's not a conspiracy but just demand and newer bikes removing main obstacle as in mounting points there's not enough demand.
@@Przemo-c I've used discs as long as I have rims brakes. There's no comparison. I find rim brakes scary to use now after getting used to consistently more powerful and more controlled braking. This is why folk stopped buying rim brakes.. And that's in the dry. In the wet, rim brakes are just awful. I've jumped off back of a bike due to the wet rims not stopping bike accelerating DH ever faster. Then there's the sudden rim failure, due to pads grinding rims down. Had some lucky escapes with that issue, could have been very serious. Not to mention being able to brake far better with one finger than a fistful of digits, tyres blowing off rims due to overheating. Folk should never forget that better braking can literally save your life, particularly on the road.
@@JeremyLawrence-imajez there's no question discs are more consistent and way more controllable. Then again I did use rim brakes without crashing. So while I can see people using rim brakes on a bike that doesn't support discs for me the advantage of discs is quite significant. The confidence you have using them to brake later or in unexpected situations is huge. So proposing that such a big shift to discs is a result of marketing push etc is a bit bonkers. On my older bike I had no option for them and still I've got a new fork and installed hybrid disc brake. It's just that good that even a bit worse setup is worth it.
I agree with Simon that modern aero bikes feel slower and less responsive even though they are quicker. I set loads of PBs on climbs when I got on my new Canyon. It felt slower and less exciting to ride than my old aluminium Condor (slightly smaller frame size) but the numbers told a different story.
@@gcn The modern bike is my go to. Definitely faster and more comfortable for longer rides. But the old bike is still more fun for a quick whip around some country lanes.
@@cccpkingu neither of them are aero bikes. Both are climbing bikes but the Canyon Ultimate is 12years newer, so is more aero with shaped tubes and internal cables etc.
Great vid, I really enjoyed it. Personally, I mostly agree with Simon Warren. Tech is great but for most people there's simply not enough in it for what it costs. I do my own maintenance and upgrades and that becomes more tricky with the new tech. But if I had the money, then maybe I'd buy a new high tech bike. I am thinking of building a bike, but, Probably using an alloy frame!
Well said, it’s not like most people couldn’t service modern bikes themselves, it just gets trickier and takes longer. And although I love disc brakes on all my other bikes, the small hassles I get with them like warped or noisy discs or scraping pads make me definitely not wanting to have that happen on my road bike on a long day out
Do it - assembling your own bike and tinkering for me is the fun bit, drastically more fun than getting a delivery of a magic wondercarbon marvel that's ready to ride.
@@Paganizondaf650 And yet my disc brakes run true and don't make noises. My rim brakes make horrible grating noises from the dirt they pick up at the slightest hint of rain though. And they are ineffective till the moisture has been swept off the rims.
Great to hear you enjoyed the video! Nothing wrong with having the latest tech but you certainly don't need it to enjoy cycling. Si and Dan covered this topic in the GCN show 👉 ua-cam.com/video/jTi8qjWoKb0/v-deo.html - Do you think your bike can be too good for you?
I am 67 years old. I have been riding road bikes for over 40 years. I find much of the new tech to be valuable. I remember thinking: "who needs electronic shifting? Is it really that hard to shift?" I tried a newer bike with Di2 and Hydraulic, disc brakes and honestly I was very surprised. The biggest gain for me was the disc brakes. The hand effort reduction was immediately noticeable. I also noticed less hand and arm fatigue at the end of a long ride with Di2 doing most of the work. I remember taking the new bike in for some standard maintenance and I rode my old bike. I was shocked at the difference. I applied the brakes and just kept going. I had to really squeeze hard on the levers to get the bike to stop! I do not have an aero bike, but I have noticed on a downhill the guys with those bikes do seem to coast away faster. I know it could be weight, but even guys my size seem to pull away without pedaling. I do not have deep wheels. I run 30s and that works for me since it is somewhat windy where I live. I have noticed over the years that some people have downed all sorts of things, like clipless pedals - its a fad-, index shifting- they can hear you shifting in a race-, and helmets. I can't imagine riding without those items these days. I can't.
There's a beautiful simplicity in the slightly older bike tech. I (recreationally) ride a road bike with rim brakes and tubed tires now and I find it somewhat annoying that my next bike will probably end up having disk brakes and tubeless tires. I see the point for professionals who are racing, but for Joe Blogs like myself, I think the older tech simply makes more sense. It's easier to maintain and cheaper to buy. I've come quite close a few times, to buying a refurbished high end 1970's vintage road bike. They're the same price as the averagely priced gravel bikes I'm likely to upgrade to next. But then I also want the fancy new gravel bike designs, as they're more suited to the type of riding I do. It's a conundrum, but I suspect a conundrum I'll solve by just giving in to the tubeless disk brake hype eventually.
I'm a classic bike rider (my Giant is 23 years old) but I'm not anti-tech, I just love my Giant Peleton. It was great to see the route you took, as I've cycled it many times, both ways when I lived in the area. Great vid.
It was tech that actually brought me back to cycling! I’ve always been a tech geek in many things and I’ve found the innovation in cycling exciting and happy to use it.
I ride a Colnago C40 1st edition. I did build a modern bike a couple of years ago, but sold it. Didn’t make me any faster, and I like the look of my old frame, and shiny alloy components.
I think it is cool from GCN to show the average normal sportive rider as 98 percent of us are that all the new tech is literally for nothing for these kind of people. So the new stuff all the companies are selling is only for the pros or for people who like to have the newest freshest stuff for no good reason. My key takeaway from this video is just to avoid buying new bikes at all cost. Thanks GCN for saving me a lot of money i would have spent otherwise! You are the men :-) Greetings Emanuel
To be fair, without new tech and sponsorships, GCN wouldn't be able to survive. It'd just be a couple people posting to an online blog. Without new tech, we'd already have enough articles and videos on how to do maintenance on our old Shimano 8 speeds. 🤨
Had a 8 year old TCR rim break. Loved it never let me down east to maintain and loved riding it. Upgraded last year to a £5.5k Giant Propel. Di2 let me down on an event by malfunctioning. The break fluid leaked all out my break on another event. Costs a bomb to maintain as whenever it has an issue usually to complex for my simple brain to solve. My TcR I could service and fix myself (most of the time). Doesn’t have same feel when riding it. Don’t doubt for the pros it makes a significant difference but for the average Joe simplicity is better
💯 true ! I love cycling , but don’t want a bike that is complicated and needs expensive fixing ! Just want to ride a bike , change tyres inner tubes brakes and chain when needed !
So the bike that had a rim break , never let you down. Curious statement. I hardly do any maintenance on modern bikes compared ye old bikes I used to ride with their faffy rim brakes and puncture prone tubes etc. Despite my dislike of charging batteries, I went wireless on the new bike because the pretty much the only issue with old one was cable fraying inside brifter on multiple occasions and being an absolute pig to sort out. Luckily it never happened out on a ride in middle of nowhere.
Recently treated myself to a new bike with discs and rival axs electronic gears. My other bike is rim brakes and sora. Disc brakes definitely stop a bit better though not as much as I thought!. Gears perform flawless but so did my mechanical ones. Thing that is strange is that my old bike rides lovely as well, not super sure that the new one was worth the upgrade outlay and it's a pain to stop disc rub on the new one it's OK one day back the next which annoys me to be honest but it does look lovely lol!. Point being maybe I would have been better off with buying new wheels and 105 11 speed gears for the old bike. I think looking back I got taken in with all the hype of the new tech and it works fine but it is definitely not the big jump up I was expecting guys. Wonder if anybody else feels the same?. I am not slagging off the new tech at all by the way it's just I spent a lot of money for me anyway and improvement is not the jump up I expected for that outlay.
I agree. I like all bike tech and some of the new stuff is cool, but what you can do by combining the two (old and new tech) can make for a great experience. I am not against disc brakes, but in my experience, I think that related gains, while not a bad thing, are not game changing and there is no doubt that they add weight and complexity. I've got a 2004 Trek 5500 frameset that I've outfitted with a mixture of new and older parts, and the thing is bullet proof and weights 7 Kg complete with deep section carbon rims. Looks and rides great as well.
Not quite the same but I got a new CX bike and although the discs give a bit more confidence and the wider tyre clearance help with comfort, it's 4kg heavier than my good old canti CX bike and feels much much slower. The internal cable routing on the new bike is awful too and the disc rub 😟
@dan44bmx my new carbon disc brake bike is the same weight as my alloy old bike lol. Electronic gears are 2kg on there own without the weight of the discs!!. Only plus is the system is wireless so no cables. Its the disc rub that passes me off.
Thanks for commenting Steven! Very interesting to hear from someone that has recently made the jump! Do you think you would do it again if you had a second chance? Or are you missing the old bike? 👀
As much as I’m very much in line with Simons opinions (Raced thin bikes as a kid). I absolutely love the look of the modern bike. I’ve just ordered my first disc / DI2 bike after a life time of rim brakes & exposed cables. Congratulations GCN on another great episode 👍
Which bike did you go with?....Congrats my friend and I couldn't agree more about the newer bikes....love the looks. I have my eye on mostly Italian (Pinarello, Wilier and Bianchi) at the moment. Such a great sport....
@@amgolfer3591 CANYON Ultimate SL CF 8 with Ultegra Di2, problem is the wait has now been pushed out to September 😩 l to love the Italian bikes, but I’m afraid that the Colnargo C68 is way beyond my budget.
Hit the nail on the head cycling in 2013 was expensive but affordable. Cycling in 2023 is no longer affordable. Remember when you could get last year's supersix for £1k with 105. Now £1k gets you an alloy bike with claris and really shit cable disc brakes.
This reminds me of when 29ers were new in mountain biking and people felt slower on them but were actually faster. Feeling fast can be part of the fun, and I would have loved to see Simon's reaction to being faster while feeling slower.
I don't think you can compare mountain biking with road cycling. Road bikes at £1k come with shit groupsets and even shitter mechanical disc brakes. My mountain bike although a hard tail came with hydraulic brakes and airsprung forks for less than £500 from Vitus. Road cyclists are being completely ripped off.
You ain’t going faster though on a bike with more spokes, more weight, rotors rubbing etc than the race bikes that Contador etc ripped around on. 29er gives more suspension so feels slower. Road disc IS slower because less aero and heavier.
@@durianriders is that why Contador's own bike brand uses disc brakes? 29ers don't give you more suspension. It reduces the angle required to roll over an obstacle. A shallower angle results in less loss of momentum. Suspension is from fatter tires or more suspension travel. You push diets of pure sugar and taking steroids for performance. Nothing I've ever seen you say has been based in reality.
I still ride my $1500 custom built lugged steel frame with Mavic Pro wheels and Campy Centaur groupset with a Brooks saddle and I love it. But I also used to own a carbon Orbea frame and could definitely feel how much more power went straight to propelling me forward. But, I'm not a racer or group rider so I'm happy with my old school bike.
One thing I always liked was when I upgraded my summer bike, I could put those old parts on my commuter so both bikes got an upgrade. I do hope rim brake parts keep being made as I would in effect need to upgrade two bikes.
no, you would need to have 2 brand new bikes! but honestly what's not to love about that (other than the price)? seriously though there's nothing worse than those fucking rim brakes... he was sticking to his guns but one ride is not enough. the difference doesn't really sink in until you experience a whole year of not having to do ANY adjustments to your brakes because they're hydraulic disc brakes... no new cables, no cable adjustments, no re-centering your brake pads every time you remove a wheel, no re-centering your brake pads... just like in a car they self adjust. the only aspect that comes close to being that same experience is here in the Northeast US, they put salt and other ice melters on the roads, and sometimes that will contaminate the discs, and then it's about the same experience as when you try to stop with wet rims, and similarly dragging the brakes a little bit will clear that up
@Better & Better the cost is the issue. To get the same equivalent 2 bikes I would have to spend 5-6k. Maybe more? It's annoying. BTW I think you are doing something wrong if you need to constantly adjust rim brakes that often. I hardly ever adjust mine sometimes I will adjust the barrel at a traffic stop it's hardly a laborious task.
I like this video and I wish there was more of a choice like he said. But he literally said in one sentence about disc brakes everyone is sheep and then about tyre pressures, once I am told, I'll do it forever. Just made me chuckle
I'm Old...my SWORX SL6..Rim brakes..5.9 kilo..No electrics..No problems 😊 I also ride Tubs...for the wonderful feel... High quality rim brake components will become very collectable... I enjoyed the video a lot..Great guest 👌
Simon is right. People aren't sold rim brake bikes. But there are some companies that still produce high-end rim brakes and rims and frame sets. And their products are sometimes sold out because knowledgeable people buy this stuff.
This leads to a question that has different answers depending on whom you ask: Are rim brake wheels and framesets becoming harder to find because of high demand for same, or is it because of low demand? My answer, mirroring Simon's, is it's because there are still a lot of riders who want rim brake options and are snapping them up very quickly when they find them. Others will say, as Si implied, that supply for rim brake frames is low because demand is low. If demand were low (it isn't), it would be induced demand (aka hype) for disc brake frames. A key piece of that is every pro team having been compelled by their suppliers to go disc whether riders wanted to or not. That was very purposeful. Non pros see the pros riding discs, and all those non pros want discs.
@Ranger Smith The people who prefer and buy rim brake bikes are nowadays certainly in the minority. But the supply for this market is rather insufficient and it might get worse as this market shrinks. So when you are looking for a rim brake bike and you have more points which need to be matched it can be hard to impossible to find what you want. Niche high-end components sell out quick and if you didn't get one you need to wait for the next production run.
@@maxsievers8251 Assuming there _is_ a next production run. So far I've not any trouble finding consumables like cables and pads, and I suspect such parts will continue to be available. I'm more concerned about frame sets and wheels.
Some good comments there. I'm in the camp where I reckon I've built up a pretty good all carbon rim brake bike. It's hard to justify the cost of transitioning over to a disc bike any time soon. However, as top end rim brake parts dissappear due to manufacturers not producing new parts any more, then the lack of parts will push the decision. Just hoping that the new wireless Campagnolo groupset is going to have a rim brake option.
Great video and lots of great points from both sides. It's no secret I am a rim brake fan. But I have my reasons which are mainly for practicality. They are lighter, more aero, simple in operation, and I can easily service them myself. Should I end up in the middle of nowhere, service is dead simple. Tools to service them are light, and probably already in the bag. I know I rarely have to, but if I do it's a few minutes. The only other bit of tech distaste that will get me relegated to geezer is carbon fiber. If I buy a bike for 10K, I want it to be an heirloom purchase and not something that has a lifespan due to fatigue of the material. I don't care for aluminum for several reasons, mostly the inconsiderate feel on the body. That leaves me steel or titanium. I don't necessarily hate tech, I just put value on certain things beyond what the glossy ads say.
I rode a 1992 Trek 7000 until this summer. I just can't find the bearings and such to maintain the bottom bracket. On top of that, it's hard to find anything but the cheapest components, at least locally. What I replaced it with: A Fyxation single speed. I do intend to ride it as a fixie once my fitness improves and I have more authority over the bike for hops, skids and the like. I went for an simpler bike than before, and to this day, I have never ridden a disc brake bike, other than some Canadian tire or Walmart junk. I really don't think most people need disk brakes. They stop better, but if you don't shift your weight to the rear, your flying over the bars, just like any brake. And if you lock up the rear tire, the brake isn't even doing anything, it's the tire friction. I like new tech. If I had the cash, I'd certainly get a few top tier mountain and Enduro biked. For my main bike, however, I don't want something that needs new fluids every year
Having used both rim and hydraulic disc brakes for a few decades each, one huge difference is the lack of faff with discs. Pretty much fit and forget, ba the occasional pad change. Vastly better and more consistent braking too which is why folk have moved away from rim brakes. As for aluminium being harsh to ride, that's last century marketing myths. Your seat post makes more difference than frame material and a few PSI less in your tyre pressure makes an even bigger difference. Same with different tyres tyre. Found the new and very different version of my favourite tyre harsh in comparison compared to old model.
Great video. Makes a nice change to have a genuine counterargument to the bike industry's agenda on the channel. Having said that I have recently converted to a disc braked Aeroad. Lovely bike, but I am dreading having to do any maintenance on it.
@@clickbait2000 or a trustworthy bike shop / mechanic in case you can’t fix it yourself; the only thing my cheap disk brake needed after 5 years and heavy usage was new chain(s). Which is about the same as my rim brake bike needs. Both haven’t seen a bike mechanic in years.
I build up my disc brake bike with electonic shifting and integrated headset myself. It was pretty easy (not fast, but I had fun), UA-cam university was a big help I should say. And I don't fear servicing it, altough it was not neccessary for a year now. Braking just works, shifting just works. And I'm not a mechanic, not even a hobby builder or so.
@@SrFederico I'm the same as you in as much as I do all my own maintenance. But I do need to buy some new tools so I can work on hydraulic brakes. We've got 4 bikes in the house with them now, so it was inevitable. Sure, it's more time consuming and effort compared to rim brakes. But the point is, which I just reminded myself of by riding a rim braked bike with carbon rims in the wet, braking is orders of magnitude better with discs.
@@RadJim My rim brake experiences date from 35 years ago, so I can't judge the performance of modern rim brakes. But new wheels are mainly developped for disc, so I decided to buy a frame that can easily be updated with the newest tech down the line. Sure does one need new tools for new tech. Slightly annoying that you need completely different stuff for Shimano vs. Sram hydraulic brakes, though.
@@pedrova8058 Internal hub wireless drum brakes: 2kg wheelset. Sub 10kg racing bike will cost 20.000 of money, will have 4% stiffer HT with micro diamond bearings, will be 1.7 W faster on 45km TT at 58km/h and will be called Ultralight.
I completely agree with the sentiment regarding disc brakes. I don't want to buy a whole new bike, so i keep my cantilevers. This in itself wouldn't be so bad, stuff is still available (just), but then i can't upgrade to the newest groupsets, as cable operated brake levers are being phased out from Shimano's top groupsets. I have just upgraded to Di2, but only because the R7000 shifters and front mech i "upgraded" to were so awful. Hidden hoses and cables on bikes looks great, but the maintenance must be truly horrendous. I feel a lot of new riders don't appreciate how bad things have got and how expensive this sport has become.
For 99% of hardcore amateurs, a custom made steel frame is going to be a far better bike for $3k than some well marketed $6k POS frame from a big brand. Discs are take or leave for road bikes. Even old groups can be amazing to use...I remember being shocked at how silky smooth and quick an Ultegra group from like 2005 was when I tried it a couple years ago.
How much a custom made steel frame costs mate vs frame off shelf? How much tyre can it take? The roads are getting shitter so it needs at least 32mm wide to absorb the bumps.
I raced in the early 70's and still ride 30 or more miles a day. I'll take the old bikes over the new. The big improvement has been the placement of the shifters...otherwise, no big deal. Happy to have ridden tens of thousands of miles without modern tech such as speedometers, etc. We rode the bike and enjoyed it, not consumed with numbers on a computer. Grateful to have raced when I did.
18 years ago I got into cycling. I thought downtube shifters sucked until I saw an old racer show me how it's done. You flick them in passing, as you swing your arm. They are not fast and precise, you had to be fast and precise, you had to have skill. Now the machine does it for you. As bad as they seemed, you guys were on to something interesting back then
I'm with you Mark, but a decade later. The biggest improvement for me has been modern brakes (rim or disc), they stop the bike much more effectively than the best of 30 yrs ago.
I’m ever evolving. Not meaning the latest/greatest but what serves me well at a given situation, time, age, mindset, etc. Started cheap. Evolved to the $1500 range, jumped up and up til I was on S works. Then slowly devolved, finding my love for single speed, steel frames and simplicity. Now aged, I’m back to gears, on alloy and 50mm tires. Whatever works. Live YOUR life.
Hats off to Sí for hanging in there and engaging with Simon. Simon seems to be a traditionalist, holding on to his proven ways. It would be interesting to see how or if Simon’s opinion would be changed had he put on several rides on the Orbea. When it comes to new tech, there are some who are early adapters and some who take a wait & see approach. While neither perspective is wrong for the individual, I personally can appreciate advances in technology while maintaining what works. For instance, when I transition from a steel to carbon frame several years ago, the difference in ride quality was like night & day. Good stuff here GCN!
@@gcn Oh please do that. Better yet lend him something like a ultralight bike like a Specialized Aethos. More old school in looks, yet very modern at same time.
I think all new tech is great, but bike industry should focus also on durability and sustainability. I am riding odlschool felt f6, with deep rims wheels from novatec and aero handlebars, I love my bike, but I wish I could have also the fancy new bike. But as Simon said, it does not make financial meaning to buy expensive new bike and also from sustainability point of view, it is really bad decision to replace functionning bike, only because I want to be a 30s faster on climb.
Totally! If one thinks of a bike as a tool for a job, there is very little a good 10 year old rim brake bike cannot do. And unless once competes for every second, is there a need to go a little bit faster?... Hedonic adaptation comes to mind.
Could it be that the bike industry just took a long time to realize that making a good product that works well and lasts a long time is not a good model for a business that wants to survive in the long term? Sadly, quality building bikes that last is what drove many bike companies out of business.
I'm 100% with Simon Warren. I do see upsides to Disc brakes like improved braking performance and I do like Tubleless but the cost to performance ratio is quite poor, love electronic shiting. It isn't worth £1000s to get a slight performance upgrade. In some cases there are even drawbacks where it comes to weight or complexity in repairing some components. I think for the average weekend warrior if the prices were the similar or only slightly more then the upgrades would be worth it but not for £1000s more. A £2500 bike 5 years ago now would set someone back over £4000 now. Please get Simon Warren back on as a regular
Interesting video. I ride party pace mostly, so I don't need aero.I love riding steel! I have some aluminum but prefer the feel of steel. Love that I can now run super wide (44 mm) supple walled tires at low pressure AND speed (especially on gravel).I love the gravel 'innovations', which are much like the radonneur bikes of the 30's, 40's and 50's. Have mechanical disc brakes on my Kona Sutra Touring Bike and love that my tires don't explode on long descents. Rim brakes for my other bikes: work fine and easy to service myself.Never have to charge battery be abandoned on discharge. I can replace cables myself because they are all external. Think Internal cabling is the shits for "aesthetics " because you are putting looks ahead of practicality. Love head units! His points are good. If you are only offered one style of component, that is all you can buy and if that component is exclusively proprietary, designed only to be fixed by a mechanic with specialized tools, you are preventing self resourcefulness. No advantages here. And we wonder why cycling is not inclusive?! It is pretty clear that a very narrow, VERY expensive spectrum is on offer for new stuff. No thanks!!
Rim for road! Disc for dirt! Simon makes some great points. The bike industry made these changes to make more money and never asked anyone's opinion...plain and simple. I'm fine with tubeless tech. I love wider tires too. But disc brakes are extremely flawed for road. The BIGGEST reason bike manufacturers pushed the change is for these fancy INTEGRATED COCKPITS/CABLES. Think about it...they needed an excuse to make bikes look faster and more aero year by year. At the peak of rim brake tech, we still had exposed cables because there was no way around it. A mechanical rim cable simply cannot bend and turn within a frame like a hydraulic disc cable. Enter disc frames with their super cool "clean" look. It was the wrong move, but not a surprising one. I would be way more tolerant of disc road if only the manufacturers had continued to support and provide rim technology to a decent degree instead of dropping them so quickly. Saying that "there aren't any rim customers left" for the manufacturers to cater to is absolute bull****.
Rim on the road? disc has much better breaking power imagine having to emergency brake in the road and your rims will be destroyed now that's bulls*** your just meatriding "the old times"
This has to be one of the most interesting videos GCN have done in recent times. Wholeheartedly honest on an industry that’s becoming overly complicated and out pricing itself. The “tech” they’re putting on bikes really isn’t needed. There was never anything wrong with rim brakes. I owned a custom rim brake Madone 9.9 and bought the disc brake equivalent. It was heavier and felt less responsive. No idea why I sold the rim brake bike and kept the disc, it’s felt slower! I guess I was a sheep! Now I’ve got a custom Jaegher Ascender Pure, stainless steel tubes, enve wheel set and love it. It’s not what I’d describe as “fast” bike, as in it doesn’t feel super responsive like previous top end racers I’ve had. Yes it’s got discs and Di2(which is a waste of money in my opinion) but I bought it because, I - yes - I liked it! Not because that’s what everyone else was buying which I think is the case as new comers to the sport are taking on. Nothing wrong with that per-say, we all started somewhere but the marketing has really taken over and if we aren’t all on the last 12/13speed groupset with this years colour scheme then it’s not good enough. People need to start buying what they want, not what they’re told to buy I think is where I’m going with this. If it’s rim brake then so be it, nobody’s getting dropped because they’re not on discs or don’t have electric shifting, that’s just magazine bullshit talk. I’m not against advances in tech, I think it’s actually super interesting but I can’t help but feel it’s getting more and more further away from the root core of why we ride our bikes - freedom.
Great video. I love disc brakes on a mountain bike but prefer the simplicity of rim brakes. Similarly the internal cabling and electric shifters are more difficult to maintain for those of us who keep our bikes for years. Traditionally 105’s have been a great decent affordable group set.
Except the the important difference is that modern bikes need far less fixing in first place. I hardly ever do anything on my bikes these days. Cables fraying and breaking inside right brifter, being a rare exception [every couple of years] and a PITA to fix. Gone wireless now, specifically because of that. Rim brakes needed constant faffing and worst of all used to wear through rims. Which was really dangerous. Hydraulic discs are pretty much fit and forget bar the occasional pad change.
As he has stated in this video, to build the same lightweight bike with an electronic gearset and disc brakes, he should spend twice the money he has spent to build his own bike. Does this worth a 10% improvement?
@@gpersonaltrainer To build a bike as light as his, yes. But a bike costing the same as he spent, using (fatter, heavier) modern tech, would still probably be faster! Also - inflation has been brutal in recent years so that needs to be taken into account.
@@ollyhorne4651Well, having a lot of money, I would agree with you, but being on a limited budget, it's not just about the initial cost, but you should consider how much you pay to mantain the "modern" bike in good working order. Not mentioning the "pain in the gluteus" you are going to have to find a reliable bike shop which eventually will serve your bike professionally, without asking you an arm and a leg.
@@matthew7419 Maybe, probably a bunch of factors tbh. My guess is that the guest rider doesn't usually ride on camera, or with retired pros (I may be wrong) - so he may have put more effort in than usual, for a start!
I am with Simon. Maintaining a bike was super easy, now we are forced into disc brakes (hydrulics) while most of us seasoned cyclists want the new tech that is compatible with rim brakes.
@Alan A: Rim brakes are far from dead. I sell about 200 of my sub 1000 gram wheelsets a year. But the disc brake ones sell far better to be honest. I think the trend on going disc brake is because of marketing and most bike brandsare not even selling rim brake models anymore. If you live in a relatively flat area, rim brakes save you weight and the looks is better also.
@@macvosnot to mention rim brakes suck in the mountains with higher speeds and long descents. Disc brakes maintain braking power much better than rim brakes.
I loved Simon Warren’s comment about the technology he enjoys using to track his decline, and as a rider in my 60’s I totally get it. Personally, the tech is fun and I go for some of it; on the other hand, the engine is deficient and only getting weaker. Great video. One more comment: I have to laugh at all the GCN indoor trainer content and comments. I live in Texas, not the UK. If it’s rainy today, it’ll probably be sunny tomorrow, and I’m certainly not gonna labor in a pain cave trying to convince myself I’m having fun.
"people do as they're told, they're sheep" bravo, 100% correct (around the 08:40 mark) also totally agree on the disc brakes "revolution" that required a all new everything (similarly to MTB) and forcing this down our throat.
From an elderly type Mtb I was amazed about the braking ability of my first GT Zaskar Mtb with hydraulic disc brakes!! I have later built my own Superbike with oversize, double caliber, hydraulic disc Brakes, and I would never change back to rim brakes!!
Whether new bikes are better than old bikes is beyond doubt. the important question is whether the best bike for you is necessary. for me, who am an recreational cyclist, the most important things are comfort and durability when it comes to choosing a bike. For many parts of the bike, durability will exclude carbon. And also, dependance of batteries is not sougt after, witch exclude electronic gearing.
Modern bikes in a nut shell, 1) don't forget to charge your derailleur batteries both of them 2) your tire sealant is balled up and gross, so put on your hazmat suit and change it 3) your tire popped off again hitting a pothole, and then again hitting a rock, hookless is so awesome 3) your lightweight carbon rim has a crack in it from normal riding 4) your bike cost $1Xxxx and it doesn't matter you're still 20KG overweight 5) oh dang a crack in the frame, through away the frame 6) Yes, that is your disc/pads rubbing 7) yes that is your disc/pads squealing 8) yes your seat post, stem, bars, headset, and 10 other things are proprietary. Also your model is discontinued and you can't get those parts anymore. No aftermarket parts will fit, because aero 9) so aero bro...except you aren't racing at 30MPH for 4 hours (well maybe .01% of you are) 10) Your father and grandfather's bike are a functional heirloom which can and will continue working as designed for decades...your $15000 Taiwanese whatever is irrelevant just like an iPhone 5.
I love that you brought up Zwift. I have become addicted to it and it has increased the amount of riding I do each year. I wish some bike equipment manufacturers would be more supportive of older technology. I had a bike that was equipped with a SRAM Red etap 11 speed setup but one of my shift controllers became defective. I had a hard time finding a replacement for it. The only other alternative was a complete upgrade of my groupo. The technology was not very old but SRAM had already moved on to newer and better technology.
@@davidspendlove5900 Fortunately Shimano backtracked and made a mechanical version to keep it affordable. Having 105 in di2 would lose a large segment of their consumers because of it's price range.
Great vid, very balanced too. GCN obviously get some sponsorship from big bike companies that market their tech upgrades, fair play though for presenting both sides of the argument. I liked how at the end of it, none of it mattered, you had a great ride in the peaks and stopped off for a coffee and chat. That's what it's all about. 👍
I appreciate that Mr. Warren takes these things case by case. Personal preferences are shaped by our circumstances. He's the guy who writes books about beautiful climbs. He's not racing. So yeah, easy to maintain light weight bikes makes sense. (Although, I think Di2 is way easier to maintain than mechanical.) Personally, I have no interest in indoor training, but maybe that's because my commute to work is a bike commuter's dream (New York City to Nyack) and I get all my training done there. Great video, thanks!
Spot on!! People take what you give them, as sheep do their own feed. The disc brake is purely for the manufacturer and the local bike shop mechanic. Before the Disc brake was forced upon us, We heard no one clambering for disc brakes. Did you hear "I want disc brakes!! I need disc brakes!! Everyone should have disc brakes!!" ? I didn't and I know that you didn't either.
Awesome video. In some ways Simon W is set in his ways such as skinny tyres which are headache inducing but I agree with most of what he says. I’m still riding a rim brake carbon bike with some top parts, often bought used or discounted. I don’t think I will be go disc and internal cables because of the faff. Like the idea of having to get the stem length right on a one piece cockpit - €3-500! No way! Replacing outer cables/hoses - a morning’s work, although I know that there’s less chance of them needing replacing because they don’t see the road grime. However, I do run 25mm tyres at 85/90psi (thanks to the silca website for that) and they feel great. I have 35mm rims hand built with bladed spokes and they are mega stiff and responsive. This nice thing about Strava, headunits and zwift is that you have the choice and it’s optional. Once you buy a modern bike, almost any bike, you’re committed to their cockpit, their aero seatpost, internal cables, whichever of the numerous BB designs they use (some of which, DUB, looking at you, wear out in months). Bikes have become less and less universal in design and that is a massive pain in the backside, but that said that’s been a trend for a long time. There’s never been so much choice but at the same time the choice has never been so narrow
I sort of agree, I like the integrated cables and all that from a looks and maintenance view, hell my current bike has zero cables so the maintenance is literally replace some brake pads from time to time. It would be nice though if there was a sort of consistent way to design that entry point from the stem to the head tube. That said, there's not that much to consider, all you need is a consistent way to interface from the bars to the stem and stem to head tube and it would be easy to make a bunch of intercompatible components. I'm sure in time the components industry will come up with a way. One thing people don't consider is that all this integration is relatively new, and the bikes it was introduced on aren't yet ready for their second life where they might get a whole bunch of different components strapped to them. Much like some of this stuff in the electric vehicle world, you just need the volume of bikes being faffed with to see the big components manufacturers invest into developing for it.
@@morosis82 agree with the last point about R&D. And aesthetics of internal cables. The bikes look amazing and minimalist, but from a mechanics point of view they are anything but minimalist and it’s not good to have up to 4 cables running through such a small moving space, degrading over time with friction of steering. On the point about consistency in cockpit integration we already have consistency in 1’8” steerer tubes and 31.8mm handlebar diameter and aero bars are available in this sizing. With a simple headset design the cables can still go through the head tube (similar to Trek) but instead we have dozens of designs with minute differences all trying to achieve the same thing. It’s just frustrating that we suddenly have an obligation to use disc brakes, integrated cables and such a variety of proprietary parts. It was one step at a time for a long time, for example with handlebar clamps from 25.4 to 31.8mm then this and then that. Now we’re saturated with proprietary parts which will be obsolete in a decade and with no obligation on manufacturers to continue producing replacement parts (in the EU it’s 5 years if I remember correctly)
@@jtmuso I would be willing to bet the different methods of doing hidden cables is because patents. I can see how it's frustrating as someone that only usually sees a bike when it requires maintenance, but as the rider of said bike I just almost never have to touch any of that stuff, so it's a net benefit. I was more talking about a standard way of getting cables from bar to stem to head tube rather than the sizes of those tubes so that the Deda's and Zipp's of the world can make their bars and stems in a way that will work with other brands.
Yeah but if they offered all the high end components in rim brakes like hes wanting theyd still be expensive. He said himself if youre starting from scratch it makes sense.
@@TacticalGamingFoolI disagree. The 6th gen TCR is the best and fastest TCR for my body geometry and fitness. It is more aero and stiffer and handles better than newer generations. It even looks faster. The new one has a better weight stiffness ratio but overall it is a softer frame. There is no better bike for me than my TCR with wake 6560 wheels. I won't trade this bike with anything brand new. I love it so much I have two 6th gen TCRs. One OD1 and one OD2. Disk brakes are not efficient after 50-100 miles. They start rubbing if you ride it hard. I use disk brakes only on my fat and downhill trail bikes because the tires are too wide. The only good thing about disk brakes; it allows you to have much wider tires. However on a road bike there is no reason to sacrifice the frame geometry and aerodynamics for just having disk-brakes. Rim brake frames (not new rim brakes) will always be faster. When they compare they don’t do fair work. Try the older frames with newer faster wheels and integrated aero handlebars. I also noticed that older frames handle better on crosswinds but I didn’t ride newer frames long enough in poor weather conditions to gather sufficient data. The speed is something I can clearly see and tell the difference. My top speed and climbing speeds are 2-3 miles faster on my 6th gen than on 8th gen TCR. The new 8th gen is also ugly. I like the cut seat tube, wide wing shaped head tube on 6th gen vs square ugly looking skinny 8th gen frame.
@travelersimports6915 i dont know that much about bikes but your argument makes sense. Definitely wouldnt pit it past corporations selling us what we dont need but once theyre convince the latest is the greatest they wont buy the old stuff. Also just because your bike os perfect for you doesnt mean its for everyone.
@@TacticalGamingFool Latest is not always the greatest unfortunately except the new dub cranksets :). They are awesome :)…You are correct. Totally. There is no one frame fits all. It all depends on your body geometry, weight and fitness level. Whatever frame puts you in the most aero position while giving you a confort to maximize your power output, it is the best road bike frame for you. Unfortunately without riding and testing various frames there is no other way to find out which one fits you the best. There are certain factors you can use to narrow down your search, such as stiffness, wheel base (shorter chain is better for me), preferred tire width, and the reach. Tire width is something you want to know before buying the frame and the wheels. And never buy a whole bike because it will never fit you perfectly. It is like purchasing a suit. Taylor made suit will always fits you the best. For instance, XL size bikes always come with 175mm cranks, 100 mm stem and 460mm wide bars. I use 177.5mm, 120mm stem and 400mm wide bars. These small changes make a huge difference and could be why my 6th gen is quicker then a new TCR with 460mm wide bars.
Great honest review, I guess he's probably right there should be more choice available, some people can't afford 10k + aero bike, both systems still have their place in the industry.
Glad you enjoyed the video! One of the best things about cycling is that it can be affordable for everyone - check out this video we've put together around buying a second hand bike 👉 ua-cam.com/video/W6jDWaruzZ0/v-deo.html
I haven't tried electronic...but I have seen a number of people forget to charge their batteries, even in races. I admittedly kinda miss having a rim brake road bike.
The wide tires, low pressure concept only works if the road is bumpy and uneven enough for the setup to shine. If you have the kinds of roads I really enjoy riding on (super smooth tarmack) with my road bike,
Right. Also live in an area with mostly good, if any less than perfect roads. With 25 mm tyres at around 7 bars (100 psi) I can safely descent my favorite local hill (1.7 km/1.1 m, average gradient 6 %, four hairpin turns) without braking. Never felt any discomfort that could be caused by too narrow tyres. I do understand 28 mm if you usually ride in an area with shitty roads. If you still ask for more comfort and even wider tyres (for pur road riding that is), you should ask yourself if road cycling is the right sport for you at all.
I'll never get tired of the feeling of crushing someone riding the dopest tech with my vintage Benotto. A bad workman always blames his tools. Don't get me wrong, I love tech and research. If you're riding to make a living, then the question should be, "will this tech help me win or make money?" If you're a recreational rider, then it should really come down to one simple question, "will get more joy?"
Simon Warren is a proper old school cool guy. What he says about people are all sheep they do as their told. And about you either change or be left behind. So relevant with past COVID or just life in general.
Just got back from a wonderful ride with a buddy, and I was on my '82 Olmo Competition with pantographed Campagnolo Nuovo Record parts and 6 speed freewheel. Great bike, great ride, great fun! The biggest issue for older, out of date bikes is just getting replacement parts, and that can be a challenge.
@@gcn It's a common problem to deal with. When I worked as an electronics engineer at an earthmoving equipment manufacturer, we routinely redesigned electronics to support 20 or 30 year old machines. Mechanical parts were available for much older machines. By comparison, here in the USA, automobile parts are legally required to be available for only 10 years.
I had an '83 Pearl White Olmo (forgot the actual model name) with SLX Columbus tubing, and all period Super Record gruppo on it. Mavic SSC hard anodized 'Paris Roubaix' rims laced to the SR 32 hole hubs with straight 14 gauge stainless spokes with various Clement silk casing, or Conti cotton cased tubulars glued to them. Full Cinelli 'cockpit', and a then new Selle Italia Turbo saddle to top it all off. I even a minor Italian pro team's wool jersey with the brand's embroidery emblazoned large across the chest. Yes, I miss that bike and it's simplicity.
@@Fordworldrallyfan Sounds nice! Olmo seemed to like to call their top model "Competition"... although there were various versions. A good silk tubular is a wonderful thing!!
My problem with new tech is that the old tech isn't all that bad, but repeatedly channels (like GCN) and brands show all the new stuff without looking further. Besides the stuff getting mighty expensive many riders still have older bikes, like 'older' Simon mentions. What I mean? Only two years ago Pogacar won the tour using rimbrakes on some of the stages, now we are told that the only safe option is discbrakes. While, how I look at it, the development is more like this: - We have rimbrakes - We want more aero... higher wheels! - But they get too heavy - Make them carbon! - But now they don't brake in the wet! - Discbrakes! Discbrakes are better than rimbrakes, sure, but a decent setup with aluminium braking surfaces works fine for the average rider. Not all 'new' tech is good tech, everyone seems to applaud BBs going to T47 now, but didn't we also applaud pressfit? It was so much nicer, stiffer, 'better' than BSA wasn't it?
I really enjoyed this video, it was great to hear the two Simon's opinions on modern bikes. Of course they are more efficient in almost every way; I'm glad Simon Warren referred to the cost aspect. I love my 8 year old semi-superbike, I also love my 38 year old superbike (which in my opinion is the coolest bike anyone can ride) and I enjoy riding them both for very different reasons. I'm sure I'd really enjoy riding a modern superbike but the reality is I cannot afford one. I shall continue riding my old bikes and probably continue getting half-wheeled and smashed by my mates on their up to date superbikes. As for amateur racing, it would seem we will be forced to invest to remain competitive.
one of your best videos...I also prefer rim brake and oldschool 9-11 speed and instead Zwift I go out for a little running. To be true with MTB I changed 3 years ago from Steel, 3x9 and 26" to Carbon 1x12 and 29 after a short ride and I was impressed. (Some) things change but I would never change my CX bike from 1x9 1-28 with mini v brake 🙂
But sadly, both options are NOT. Every month it becomes harder and harder to find rim brake wheels/rims, especially those which are not the now 'requisite' 25mm minimum outside width. 👎 There are still multi-millions of (even high end) rim brake bikes still out there in this world. That ALL of the current wheel manufacturers are TOTALLY giving up on this market, just because it is not the 'hot and sexy' latest and greatest thing, is complete asininity.
I love to see all the new innovations, and I'd happily buy things that look like they'd be good value for MY money. I'd love to try electronic shifting but I cannot justify the cost. Maybe in 10 years it will be affordable?
@@e3dave744 Does not surprise me at all. I frequently miss the nice tube-based radio I had as a kid (yeah, I'm old). It was noisier and far less efficient that my current chip-based radio, but ...
I have to say I do agree with a lot of what this guy was saying. That’s why a couple of years ago am went for a rimbrake tcr with cable integra. Best of both worlds. Super stiff frame, efficient gears, brakes that I can all maintain myself.
Would love to see him on the show again. Would be so interesting to see if he changes perspectives on modern tech or be reaffirmed. Also, totally agree with the maintenance and affordability part. Everyone should be able to easily maintain or modify their bikes and adjust tem to their needs without paying a fortune. Otherwise biking becomes quite an elitist thing and also the lack of ability to modify robs the hobby of its personality imo.
I love new tech as much as Si, but I know exactly what Simon is talking about. I have a 20 year-old mtb that I would love to restore but finding 26” rim brake wheels that aren’t crap is pretty much impossible. I could get a second life out of this bike if only I could find all the parts I need. Not everyone is looking to hunt KOMs or ride as fast and aero as possible. Some just want to ride for the fun it brings.
I have been riding for quite some time now, 16 years, and I can say based on my experience, 8-10 years is a good time to buy a new replacement bike since the tech will surprise you and it's fun. But always consider your budget first and whether it's something you will enjoy. If you replaced the bike too often, you will find the advancement to be trivial.
Disc brakes make sense on carbon wheels, particularly in the wet on or on long descents. Aero frames and electric groupsets give advantages when racing (or when emulating racing as in a fast group ride). I find some of these things interesting, but I just don’t need them for where and how I ride. I’ll stick with my steel frames, aluminum rims, and rim brakes.
@@Sai-tb1xt yes and no, what 1500 buys you now struggles to compete with what you used to get for the same amount 5 years ago, but that's not really the point. More the fact they tried to "win him over" with a bike that costs 10k and above to which he rightly replied lovely bike can't justify the price of a very good family car. Pretty sure if they went for the standard model of the orca aero (4.5k give or take ) he would have said absolutely not.
@@albe56 i agree with you partly i think the price was not the point but more like a comedic try to go all into tech and try to show what is possible if they used 105 di2 and shallower wheels , i guess it would make no difference in the context of this video but you would be more in the 5 k range (which is the same value as roughly 4,5k from 1985) but i am 80% with you on this one
I ride a 2007 Trek Madone SSL6.5 with DuraAce 7800. The frame was Armstrong's super light mountain stage bike in his last pre come back Tour. I love it & have no compulsion to replace it. The rim brakes work great, the gears like new, it it looks fantastic. Only thing is 25mm tyres are the biggest that'll fit, but I can live with that. Pulling into a bike cafe it still makes me proud.
You can see the public opinion trending towards this now. Disc brakes are now seen as "uncool" and "stupid". And that will be all it takes to reverse the direction of the bike manufacturers.
Very interesting. Point about the disks bang on; it’s not about what people want or even what’s better performance-wise but the need to sell new products to consumers and steer them in the direction of buying new stuff whether they want it / need it / can afford it or not.
As an older rider anything over 20mph means that I am going down the slope. I don't ride fast enough for aero to be a major concern. I do share some of Simons points. I would love to adopt more of the modern tech, but it isn't compatible with older frames and I can't afford to replace everything. I have 5 bikes and I can swap components among them as I need to. Though my #1 concern is robustness. Having been in a number of accidents over the years (debris on the road, animals running into me, and so on) I really want to be able to get home. I have bent Al rims and steel frames and still ridden home. That wouldn't quite work with carbon rims. I have a bike with hyd-disc brakes, and I really like them. But at the same time my rim brakes have never failed to deliver more stopping power than I have in traction. Why would I need more? I do truly appreciate modern tires. They are light years better than the old skinny ones. The other thing is related to the longevity of bikes. Some of my frames (steel and Al) are nearly 50 years old. Si, how would you feel about riding a 50 year old carbon frame and fork? If I was still riding competitively I would be in 100%. The efficiency gains are great. But the cost is very steep. On the plus side this trend has created an opportunity for me to buy used equipment from 10-15 years ago when these modern trends were just appearing. That equipment is still largely compatible with old-style bikes and lets gain a little aero and reduce weight for a discounted price. Or for that matter I could go out today and buy a new Ultegra Di2 11spd rim brake groupset for very nice price.
The first MOUNTAIN bike I had with disc brakes was such an amazing change. I couldn't believe it. And then I got HYDRAULIC disc brakes, and they were Avid Juicy.. whatever the top line was. But in MTB, I do love going hard all the way to the corner and then getting onto the brakes. It makes it fun. But like you, I've never felt like my rim brakes were unsafe. Well, except once, on a 6 mile descent down a mountain. That one WAS sketchy and I could absolutely NOT go hard as I could have. Things like brake fade, heat, etc became very real. For 99.9999% of my cycling, I'm trying to go FASTER and that's hard enough; I don't need brakes! 😉
I'm still riding my 09 Giant TCR Advanced SL (integrated seatpost mast). It's been a great ride. I did change out the groupset to 11sp Shimano DuraAce (9000), which I will argue is the most aesthetically pleasing DuraAce groupset of the last 20 years. My issue with the most recent tech is that bike product manufacturers have failed to come up with a quick release system for disc brake hubs. It's now a pain in the ass to remove the wheel from frame without carrying some sort of tool. If I want to store my bike in the trunk (boot) of my car, I can have both wheels off in about 20 seconds by simply flicking the quick release levers on both hubs. When there are quick release disc brake hubs, I might be convinced to get a new bike.
I'm also not convinced that tubeless wheels and tires would make my riding any more enjoyable. I do have the occasional flat but when I do I'm not having to deal with messy sealant. Unless I have a catastrophic tear in the sidewall, I can have the flat fixed in less than 5 minutes and be on my way.
The thing that frustrates me is how extremely difficult it is to change tubeless tires. It is ridiculous! The days of easily changing a tire in 5 minutes are gone! I now have to take my bike to a shop to change a tire. I have even had to walk home (fortunately only about 1 mile) because I couldn't change the tire, which is something I have been doing for 20 years. I absolutely agree that the bike industry doesn't give a crap about what we really want. Don't even get me started on ditching high end mechanical groupsets!
As a bike mech, I can say it's not specific to tubeless. I'd say it's more about tyre-rim combination. On road bike, rim hook and tyre bead are supposed to be 622 mm of diameter. But around that standard, manufacturers tends to take margins. If you have a rim that is a bit taller or a tyre a bit tighter, that's a bit harder to do. If it both a the same time, that's when it starts to get tricky... But that's regardless if it's tubeless or not. But I totally agree on high end mechanical groupset even worse on average groupset. Still don't get Shimano's choice of ditching 105 mechanical groupset.
I got a new bike last August and made sure I got tubes so I wouldn’t have to worry about tubeless. I also find regular tubes hold air much better than tubeless
And why do the trade keep saying "tubeless ENABLES you to use lower pressure". You can just as well lower the pressure of tubed tyres.I followed the Silca tyre pressure site and they got me to lower my 100 lbs down to 70 lb rear and 68 front..Much more comfy ride especially on chip and fill rough roads
@@walterhofer937 They have forced people onto them .Planet X now only sell their excellent Pro Carbon bikes in tubeless AND disc s too, both of which are a retrogade step .Their range are now not available in normal tubes which DON T take a canister of C O 2 to seat the tyre .What I object to is they say it "enables you to ride at lower tyre pressures " which is a direct lie as tubes can just as well be lowered to the same pressures which are found to be faster on normal chip and fill type rough UK roads . The only time I ve seen road bike users walking back home is when they have had a big blow out on tubeless and can t repair it or get air in them
Always found that quote hilarious. Simply because if Ford was in the horse dealing business, he would sell people exactly that. Faster horses. Let's not pretend companies are giving people what they want or need. They are giving people the most expensive thing they can get away with. 80% of people are WAY less capable than their bikes to begin with, but that doesn't stop them from wanting even better bikes. Because they are constantly bombarded with marketing hype and the newest, shiniest thing. So people naturally think they're missing out.
Yes, it’s a fun quote, but they might have said, “faster wagons for most applications and faster horses for conditions where wagons are not viable.” But that’s not as self-aggrandising.
@@QlickyCompanies definitely don’t always sell people what they want. I drive a Honda fit which is still a very popular car but Honda stopped importing it into the US. If I had to guess it’s because they couldn’t charge a lot for the car since it’s so simple.
What’s your opinion on modern bikes and tech? 👀
I love everything about modern bikes, apart from the prices and the squealing from the disc brakes
i recently built a s5 and opted for the campagnolo record mechanical group set i posted the photo of the bike in a group of cervelo s5 fans and some people were surprised and others defended the superiority of electronic groups, i think that in the near future people will lose the technique of using mechanical gearshifts, young people love their electronic groupsets and find it heresy and tacky to opt for mechanical groupsets 😅
Pretty happy with my 10 year old custom Cyfac XCR (ie stainless) on Chorus 11, sure it has 42mm Reynolds Carbon Tubs, Oh, it is 62cm and still only 7.3kg ready to ride. (I mean, maybe I am not fussy, I still have a LOOK from 2003 wit DA 8 speed that still makes me happy)
My take is a bit like the scene from Armageddon when Bruce Willis is ripping apart the moon buggy designed by rocket scientists asking...what the hell is this for? and casting useless bits aside as he strips it down to what's actually needed.
Whether it be old or new tech, it still bamboozled me that you have to completely remove a cable to replace a shifter, I mean, seriously, that's the easiest of problems to solve... and yet...
PS: Remember 10 years ago when the bike companies told us we needed integrated seat posts, Simon's suspicions are not exactly unfounded, of course the bike companies want us to consume new, but pretty much useless technology upgrades, that is how they make profit.
Would be interesting to see a video with the roles reversed with Si riding Simon's idea of a dream bike
It's been done multiple of times.
@@johnalves2765this rim brake lovers, have short memory or just see what goes into their perspective
Been done already. Remember the time that Si rode the retro Merckx custom build? I’m sure Simon would sleep with that bike and never let it go.
@@AaronFatTireBikeFishBible GCN does this all the time with the retro and cheap bike videos.
Si’s already done this, cycling the Eddy Merckx replica in France
We generally need more on long term sustainability. Need more people to ride and be able to maintain their own bikes (and for it to be easier to do)
I agree. Less carbon, less proprietary parts (wtf happened to the 27.2 or 31.6 seatpost standard on roadbikes), less planned obsolescence the list goes on. . .
Very good point.
I’m able to maintain my bike very easily too.
I just toss it at a mechanic and pay them to do that. That’s a very effective way of maintaining a bike too.
@@slowcyclist4324 yea but we don't want cycling to be more expensive in the long term either
@@oj978 I don’t think cycling is expensive as it is. Do you?
You don’t have to ride the latest and greatest. The indoor bike I train on for intervals is a decathlon triban 120 with microshift, costs less than $400. Bought it during the height of the pandemic.
The bike I enjoy riding for the pure sake of noodling around leisurely coats 15k. Both serve different purpose.
Or is the cost conscious cyclist too elitist to consider a microshift 11kg bike worthy of being ridden?
Let’s be honest, cycling isn’t more expensive now than it was in the past. It’s that cyclists want expensive stuff at budget price, and can’t accept that price changes means that they can no longer pay peanuts yet still get something better than monkeys.
Bikes should have a DIY repairability score. It's just fun to have your own workshop, it can save on LBS costs, and you have more supply alternatives compared to the high-tech proprietary parts. Speed is absolutely secondary for ordinary mortal human beings.
I have a Cannondale Synapse Carbon Disk, which came as a Tiagra Mechanical, but now has Ultegra Di2 and carbon wheels. I have done all the upgrades myself. It does not have an integrated cockpit but does have integrated cables through the frame and it is all fine and works great. The only remaining parts from the original bike are the frame, fork, headset (I have bought a spare, but haven't needed it yet after 11000 miles) and the seat binder. I have learnt new bike mechanic skills as it was my first disc brake bike, but it is a great bike to ride, very comfortable and stops so much better with the disc brakes than any rim brake bike I have had before. I think I am lucky having a model just before everything became very proprietary.
Word!
I have done the exact same as you, same process, same bike, same exact components ! its a great all around bike @@ysarn
Readily available spare parts & platform or bike specific support worldwide also important. This is why standards matter!
Former working Bike Mechanic here, this is a brilliant idea.
It's not that modern bikes suck it's that they are loaded with extra costs for features we don't necessarily want. Not all of us care about going faster, over everything else, as GCN frequently forgets. The extra cost of going a couple of miles an hour is honestly not worth it to most of us.
That's only at the pointy end of bikes though and cheaper bikes get better tech because of it.
But that's not a reason to hate them. For some people, it is worth it.
@@ff2e no they don't. Cheaper bikes now weigh 10kg with horrible unnecessary disc brakes on them.
@@chrisjie2127 You can still buy rim brakes. A 105 rim groupset is avilable for less than £400, which is possibly the best value a groupset has ever been.
@@socialistcynic Yes there are options. But it's not what your average cyclist is pushed towards buying. Nor what someone who is new to cycling will be looking at. Instead they are looking at overpriced 10kg disc brake pieces of crap and will ultimately have a poor experience.
Why not give Simon a cutting edge climbing bike? Would have been a much more balanced comparison. And why not finish with seeing his reaction to being 10% quicker up the climb? Would have been really interesting to see what his reaction to that was. A really interesting idea, slightly let down by some questionable decisions.
Would have loved to see his response to the 10% quicker result. There’s a conspiracy, because pros want to ride 10% faster…?
I mean there is sort of a conspiracy, but it's not aimed at us but rather our money. if parts wear out, you have to buy new ones, if parts are incompatible that means you need to buy even more parts, or possibly even a new bike, and it means that you can only buy parts by the one company, because you can't mix and match brands. from the tech improvement perspective, parts wearing out is kind of good, because that lets them cycle out the old in favor of something that hopefully works better. shortens their R&D cycle.
in a way this is what makes e-bikes good for combating the ultralight trends towards this artificially increased maintenance schedule, because these ultra light parts don't hold up to the torque of an e-bike motor
That’s just GCN gaslighting sheep with giving 0 power metrics and claiming to be faster, albeit feeling sluggish 😂 same type of gaslighting on Si’s previous video of tech comparisons. Show the power data if you are claiming to be transparent.
@@better.better the torque of an ebike motor? Sorry but if you start a sprint you probably put out 80+ Nm and that is above the average ebike motor torque.
@@pipapo3424 I’ll leave you with the biggest fact on the video “people are sheep they do as they are told”. Si claims climber Simon climbed 10% faster than ever on the heavier bike with zero metrics shared and here is noob Paul believing it like it’s the truth. 🤣 love to see it mate thanks for your comment!
If Simon's bike has doubled in replacement price, that is not a "trivial matter," as the presenter stated.
Also, I'm with Simon on this one - we are being forced into buying replacement bikes for perfectly good bikes by the bike industry. And, no, most brands are dropping rim brake option frames from their range all the time.
I’m sorry rim brakes are silly unless you only ever ride flat roads
And here I am, just having upgraded to V rim brakes from an asbestos filled hub brake.
@@MiddleAgedMikeI prefer rim brakes and ride in the mountains, wtf?
I prefer them out blocks of wood for my brakes but the industry makes me buy ones that work because I don’t have a brain
I'm always envious when you release videos with the glorious weather in the UK. Makes me want to move there so I can consistently ride in the grey, gloomy, rainy conditions.
You’d be more than welcome - Remember is only rains 340 days of the year here so you’d get to enjoy the full range of weathers and temperatures.
The weather is quite good for separating out proper seasoned riders from the fair weather wannabes
It's not always grey gloomy and wet, sometimes it's sunny cold & windy. We have a variety of hostile riding conditions.
With a fancy glasses color, every gray, gloomy, rainy day looks like an LSD trip.😅
Italy not much better for the Giro at the moment!
He calls it "sluggish" in the climb, but PRs the hill substantially. It goes to show how expectation colors our perception of our experiences. This is a huge factor in things like audio equipment, where people swear they can hear differences in equipment that they can't identify what's better if a blind comparison, where one doesn't know which piece of equipment is supposed to be better (almost always the more expensive one).
I bet he pushed more watts up the climb to keep with Simon though.
One of my best times up a climb was on a steel bike because I was racing a douche haha. Doesnt mean that steel bike was faster than my race bikes though. CONTEXT! :)
Whilst humans are consistently flakey when it comes to judging speed, due to our confusing lots of high frequency vibrations with going faster. Audio is not really comparable, because folk's hearing ability varies an awful lot.
I have noticed significant differences in audio kit, despite not knowing things had been changed.
I also notice differences and problems in visual imagery too, when others are oblivious. But I've also worked with images and audio. Possibly *because*, I can note these differences.
However, I couldn't tell the difference between strong regional Chinese accents, let along which of the very many different Chinese languages a person may be speaking.
Just because folk can't tell a difference, this doesn't mean there are no differences.
Price doesn't necessarily equate to better with audio or visual tech or anything really. But most folk are fooled by higher pricing and naively thinking it must be better.
I'd bet that the smoother ride makes it *seem* slower but it definitely wasn't
We don't know that it was the bike. This isn't scientific any any way.
@@durianrider2215 Even the most expensive bike in the world won't get you the same gains as a borderline deranged level of competitiveness. Every single rider you pass is a scrub and every single rider that has the nerve to either pass you or even just exist slightly further up the road than you is a cock, and I'll be damned if I'll let myself get outridden by some uppity cock.
I think for us mortals cycling is all about feeling and ease of maintenance. It does not matter how slow or fast the bike is. It needs to feel good and it needs to be easy to maintain. At least if you do your own maintenance. I stopped caring about speed or weight long time ago. I just ride what I like.
Well, it great if the bike is - or at least feels - faster. Yet, the latest features that promise to make you faster are mostly ridiculously expensive or are so delicate to set up and service that they lower your average speed to exactly zero, sometimes for days, because a pro mechanic has to take care of them.
Can i just say, having fallen out of love with alot of the sponsored/marketing content. Im very glad this video was made and the controversial opinion that goes against the cycling narrative. Very very good video.
Great to hear you enjoyed the video! What would you like to see us do next? 👀
@@gcn would love to see a fresh video on removing and installing Bottom brackets with a few tips on removal and installation of common types, what circumstances merit grease/retaining compound. Also a video with a guide on setting up some structured training sessions. Rather than just following zwift or the likes. A guide into what a normal week could like like for that weekend warrior/family man that gets between 5-8hrs a week on the bike
My biggest issue with modern tech is not how it rides, it's how you have to maintain it and how there's less and less intercompatibility every year. Some bikes are incredibly aero but lock you into a frameset and stem because of just how things go together. Can barely mix and match anything about the shifting anymore. Tire clearances are so small you're basically locked into one tire size on some bikes. You have to deal with tubeless sealant goop and brake fluids. Disc brakes have a million tiny screws on them for adjustments. Basically it's becoming more and more of an industry of getting a bike and then throwing away the entire thing after a couple years to get a completely new bike because you could carry over hardly anything from one to another anyway, and every time you get a new bike maintenance becomes more of a headache.
Don't forget the price. I get that quality isn't cheap but a new bicycle, which let's face it is a toy, should not be in the same price bracket as a used car
Modern cars went the same way. I've known mechanics give up because they couldn't deal with the complicated tech involved.
Absolutely right. My most modern group set is Shimano 7800, which I think is the best group set ever. All this electronic shifting, hydraulic brake stuff is just another way to get money from the punters and for 99.9% of users is entirely superfluous.
Absolutely! It is a disgrace and hardly the way to reduce waste. Still, it is possible to get frames with a normal stem/handlebar/headset, where it is possible to service the headset without bleeding brakes. However, when I hear my fellow club ride members talk about 'desirable' bikes, most are the aero/integrated stuff because of how it looks! Needless to say they all pay to get the bikes serviced, although no one competes. It also seems to affect more men than women for some reason...
I hate the proprietary kit myself, and I would never get a bike with those components because of what you just said. I know people with those bikes from a few years ago and they can hardly get spares. Still, we have the option of not playing into it and simply 'reward' a manufacturer who does not go for planned obsolescence. Mavic is not going for hookless, for instance.
I do hate the lack of standards in disc hubs though. Unless one sticks to a brand, calipers need to be realigned for every wheel swap!
PS: I run discs and Di2 and they are an absolute godsend for my tiny injured hands. I brake and change gears with the tiniest movement, which makes a huge difference. I also commute in all weathers, including below zero. Braking is much better and I have no cables to service ever. I had to sell my rim bike because of my hands, but I would not see the need at all otherwise, especially if I didn't commute. My rim bike was also lighter, even though it had lower grade components.
I now have a LOOK 765 Optimum+ which can take up to 42c tyres, so I ride all over the place with it. Heavy and not aero at all, but fits me very well and does everything I need from a bike. I ride loads but I don't compete though.
Nearly all of that is nonsense, but each to their own
I have to strongly agree with Simon Warren's point about manufacturer marketing, production decisions and distribution forcing the so-called free market. You see this with the push to SUVs and pickups with cars just as you see it with bikes. But at least the bike manufacturers are pushing a brake tech that stops a bit faster in inclement weather.....
Car companies sell SUV's because people buy them. And because they are classified as light trucks or commercial vehicles, so are exempt a lot of the fuel efficiency and safety regulations - so they cost less. But mainly because people want the world to know what pillocks they are.
I think what was described was refinement in these new bikes. They feel sluggish and maybe boring because they are so refined. The fact Simon pulled 1 minute faster and in less than ideal weather is a testament to that. Ride what you enjoy and don't hate on the new or the old :).
The main point I took from this is, yes it might be quicker, but was it more enjoyable? If youre not a pro then surely the biggest factor is enjoyment. I can go out and kill myself chasing Strava KOMS but do I enjoy that type of ride more? Nope.
Didn't they say there was a strong tailwind? 🤔😊
@@nickwf70i know he said you can usually expect a strong tailwind for that ride
@@StephenHislop-r6hyes I do enjoy being fast and using less watts as it also means I can go farther which I care about since I love super long rides but there's only 24h a day in a weekend or holiday to squeeze that in. I wouldn't buy a super expensive hyperbikes ofc but even an intermediate tier light modern bike with a 105 groupset came a long way on adding to the enjoyment. Especially the climbs since there's a ton of it here in Japan with long mountain roads.
I would vote to enjoy the ride over the speed… nobody cares, if you can do something within 24 or 25 mins, if you are not on the race.
I think we all have our prejudices when it comes to bikes, I love the disc brakes and larger tyres but prefer a steel frame over aluminium or carbon. I think there is a degree of enforced obsolescence by bike and cycle equipment makers dropping provision for older tech, like rim brakes, to encourage riders to go out and buy a totally new system rather than just a new component just to maintain their profits margins. As cycling is touted as an environmentally friendly form of transport, I think this enforced obsolescence could be argued to run counter to that.
Yes, if everyone just serviced their bikes how on earth would they sell any more? Consumerism is largely about making one feel the 'need' to buy yeat another thing...
PS: I run discs and Di2 and they are an absolute godsend for my tiny injured hands. I brake and change gears with the tiniest movement, which makes a huge difference. I also commute in all weathers, including below zero. Braking is much better and I have no cables to service ever. I had to swap my rim bike because of my hands, but I would not see the need at all otherwise. My rim bike was also lighter, even though it had lower grade components. I would have kept it for years.
I agree more with Si, I don't think they don't want to make high end rim brake components but that at the high end not enough people want them to justify the tooling, etc.
There will be a cottage industry grow around high end rim brakes for those that want them, it sort of already exists, but what this guy is wanting is high end but affordable due to mass manufacturing, and that's just not going to stay.
That's not prejudice, just preference.
@@nluisa Rim brakes are much easier to service and setup. Plus brake cables can last years if not abused. Disc brakes are superior in performance but it’s a big trade off in cost, weight and aerodynamics. Eventually we won’t get a choice when all half-decent bikes will be disc only.
I had a Yeti mountain bike from I think 1997 and they stopped making components that fit the frame for it which was super disappointing
Excellent episode! Huge thanks to both Simons! :)
The thing is that while I love new tech, I can't really afford it, and that is a bit unfortunate. But when I'm on the road, doing the actual thing I love, cycling, I don't really think about upgrades (except when there is a problem with the gear). When I cycle uphill, I think about the hill and the performance, not that kilo of weight another 1500 euros would buy me.
So yeah, I'd buy the new stuff if I had the money, but the actual fun of riding is more important for me than gear.
And sir, your last sentence is what it is all about! Having fun and beeing happy. No matter what bike you are on.
I always think that my losing several stones in weight would make the biggest difference! Luckily, riding my bike more (and more) is the way to do that.
As a mountain biker who puts my budget hardtail to use on everything, I couldn't agree more!
Great comment. I don't really understand why people think electronic shifters are better than mechanical- a well set up mechanical shifter will shift instantly on the back and pretty much instantly with post shift adjustment on the front.
My take home form this is I'd like to see Simon Warren on the channel again. Maybe a series on classic rides/climbs in the UK? Perhaps taking some others to places they haven't riden before? Simon comes across well on camera and I'd love to hear about some nice routes.
Thank You.
We would love to have Simon back on the channel. How about Simon taking feather around some brutal climbs? 🏔
@@gcn I'd need a motorbike!
Honestly I would rather just see some nice climbs than add some spurious 'racing/competition' element. I'm not interested in beating anyone other than myself and I would just like to see some new places.
I have ridden Mam Nick and the views across Edale and Kinder are superb. I wasn't racing up so I had time to look at them!
Agreed
Agree with Simon, the top end choice is taken away from people. Simplicity and cost rim is massive appeal for me
but think from the producer perspective, if you producing wheels and rim wheels are about 3% percent of your all sales it's easy choice to quit from that product
No its not. Most people just chose something you don't want. Just because you can't comprehend this doesn't make it not so.
@@cjohnson3836 you really think you have a choice? That's funny. You're told to like what the marketing team tell you to like.
@@anthonykidd6595 couldn't agree more
How about once you wear through your rim wheels? Are disc cheaper in the long run?
I admire the fact that you talked about how hard it was and you couldn’t finished. I think many of us cyclist have hit this point and we struggle with admitting it or sometimes feel like total failures. But you went out there and gave it all which is what counts in my book. All the way from Texas /Mexico I send you a huge hug and pat on the back for the hard work !!!!
Great video and I can relate to Simon's views. As an older rider I have seen so many changes and large company marketing is the biggest reason for the high tech and cost as it helps their bottom line profits. Similar to HiFi, mobile phones and TVs, new models every year.... Love Si's facial expression and presentation skills, makes me smile.
Companies don't market what people don't want
@@matthewlewis2072 people want what companies market to them
yeah, like sluggish updates in apple/windows pushing you to buy new things xD
@@icrowe4617 Is that why Nokia is still so successful? Lol
Great video. Highlights the importance of loving the bike you have regardless of the tech, just get out and ride it!
Even though i don’t agree with Simon Warren, i think it’s really cool that GCN makes space for so many different opinions to be voiced in videos and alike. Great and very interesting video!
Yeah really cool like the video where they compared an old and a new bike without riding to the same power numbers effectively making it a pointless comparison rigged to favor the modern bike. But yeah they are so unbiased!
@@xAudiolith That was definitely a low point in GCN’s history. I’ll admit that video was so useless, but i also think this video shows that GCN is interested in voicing many opinions, and i can’t see what is biased in this one?
@@robinseeberg3715 It's disingenuous not because of the content of the video but because they are actively being sponsored by these bike brands and are essentially a mouthpiece for their sales department. As you can clearly see by how many "AD" logos they have on their thumbnails and how they blindly push for and position all this new tech including that recent video which to me is just the most obvious example. They can make as many videos like this as they want but how can you trust anything they put out on the topic while helping their sponsors sell their bikes in every other video. And I understand it everyone needs to pay their bills I just think it's a shame and quite frankly makes me embarassed to be a cycling fan when one of the biggest publications in our space is so blatantly biased while trying to portray some sort of semblance of authenticity. Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine but this to me negates the whole point of these sorts of videos. And as we saw in the past they only get rigged anyway to suggest in an underhand way that the new tech is superior in every way.
Just so frustrating hearing his ignorance and conspiracies 😂. Glad Si challenged them.
@@xAudiolith totally agree. Unfortunately there are way too many sheep in this world that have no critical thinking skills. I am fortunate enough to own 12 bikes ranging in value from around 1 -10k. I intermittently use them each week to do my same loop (100 minutes of riding) and there is quite literally no difference in times beyond a minute regardless of what bike I use and that is pushing an average of 300ish watts. All GCN is achieving is allowing large companies to rapidly rip off consumers with their "new tech". All this is doing is shrinking the cycling market over time by making it more and more inaccessible to genuine folk.
I've recently ordered a new, custom made, Italian steel bike with Campagnolo parts and rims. It's cheaper, lighter and more comfortable than most big brand offerings. The bike market has gone completely crazy.
Can I ask what you ordered? How was the full custom order process? I've been drooling over the Battaglin offerings for a couple of years now. Just need to commit!! 🙂
I have gone to custom steel bikes as well. I would feel like getting ripped off if I would have payed the same money for a disk brake electronically shifted carbon bike off the catalogs.
Nice!! I’ve gone back to steel, it’s an olmo giro with downtube shifters and old school gearing 23 is the lowest with a 39/53 up front, shimano rsx group set with mavic ma wheelset shod in vittoria corsa 23s and latex tubes, this bike cost me £185 plus £15 postage and I added the tyres, it’s a strength builder !!!!
Good luck stopping on a wet downhill ride
Best option today
Damn bro he's ripping into GCN by saying that manufacturers are forcing disc brake bikes and people buy them cuz there's no choice. He's so right!
Half true. I'd never buy a mountain bike with rim but a road bike I'm not biased either way. I'm in texas so it's dry but whenever it's rained I hated it riding rims
Manufacturers used to offer a rim versions of their bikes, but found no-one was buying them.
Claiming better braking is a conspiracy is bonkers.
@@JeremyLawrence-imajezI will say that good rim brakes are perfectly competent especially in dry conditions, even in wet they're good if you're mindful about braking earlier. But of all the modern stuff like carbon aero tubeless electronic shifting etc. hydraulic disc brakes are for me the biggest benefit of modern tech. I can totally see why it's not a conspiracy but just demand and newer bikes removing main obstacle as in mounting points there's not enough demand.
@@Przemo-c I've used discs as long as I have rims brakes. There's no comparison. I find rim brakes scary to use now after getting used to consistently more powerful and more controlled braking. This is why folk stopped buying rim brakes..
And that's in the dry. In the wet, rim brakes are just awful. I've jumped off back of a bike due to the wet rims not stopping bike accelerating DH ever faster.
Then there's the sudden rim failure, due to pads grinding rims down. Had some lucky escapes with that issue, could have been very serious.
Not to mention being able to brake far better with one finger than a fistful of digits, tyres blowing off rims due to overheating.
Folk should never forget that better braking can literally save your life, particularly on the road.
@@JeremyLawrence-imajez there's no question discs are more consistent and way more controllable. Then again I did use rim brakes without crashing. So while I can see people using rim brakes on a bike that doesn't support discs for me the advantage of discs is quite significant. The confidence you have using them to brake later or in unexpected situations is huge. So proposing that such a big shift to discs is a result of marketing push etc is a bit bonkers. On my older bike I had no option for them and still I've got a new fork and installed hybrid disc brake. It's just that good that even a bit worse setup is worth it.
I agree with Simon that modern aero bikes feel slower and less responsive even though they are quicker. I set loads of PBs on climbs when I got on my new Canyon. It felt slower and less exciting to ride than my old aluminium Condor (slightly smaller frame size) but the numbers told a different story.
That's interesting! Which bike do you prefer riding?
@@gcn The modern bike is my go to. Definitely faster and more comfortable for longer rides. But the old bike is still more fun for a quick whip around some country lanes.
Areo bikes are not quicker for hills. You are also comparing apples to oranges.
@@cccpkingu neither of them are aero bikes. Both are climbing bikes but the Canyon Ultimate is 12years newer, so is more aero with shaped tubes and internal cables etc.
@@jameshmd ride a rim brake sram red canyon and THEN you will go even faster
Great vid, I really enjoyed it. Personally, I mostly agree with Simon Warren. Tech is great but for most people there's simply not enough in it for what it costs. I do my own maintenance and upgrades and that becomes more tricky with the new tech. But if I had the money, then maybe I'd buy a new high tech bike. I am thinking of building a bike, but, Probably using an alloy frame!
Well said, it’s not like most people couldn’t service modern bikes themselves, it just gets trickier and takes longer. And although I love disc brakes on all my other bikes, the small hassles I get with them like warped or noisy discs or scraping pads make me definitely not wanting to have that happen on my road bike on a long day out
Do it - assembling your own bike and tinkering for me is the fun bit, drastically more fun than getting a delivery of a magic wondercarbon marvel that's ready to ride.
@@Paganizondaf650 And yet my disc brakes run true and don't make noises. My rim brakes make horrible grating noises from the dirt they pick up at the slightest hint of rain though. And they are ineffective till the moisture has been swept off the rims.
Great to hear you enjoyed the video! Nothing wrong with having the latest tech but you certainly don't need it to enjoy cycling. Si and Dan covered this topic in the GCN show 👉 ua-cam.com/video/jTi8qjWoKb0/v-deo.html - Do you think your bike can be too good for you?
I am 67 years old. I have been riding road bikes for over 40 years. I find much of the new tech to be valuable. I remember thinking: "who needs electronic shifting? Is it really that hard to shift?" I tried a newer bike with Di2 and Hydraulic, disc brakes and honestly I was very surprised. The biggest gain for me was the disc brakes. The hand effort reduction was immediately noticeable. I also noticed less hand and arm fatigue at the end of a long ride with Di2 doing most of the work. I remember taking the new bike in for some standard maintenance and I rode my old bike. I was shocked at the difference. I applied the brakes and just kept going. I had to really squeeze hard on the levers to get the bike to stop! I do not have an aero bike, but I have noticed on a downhill the guys with those bikes do seem to coast away faster. I know it could be weight, but even guys my size seem to pull away without pedaling.
I do not have deep wheels. I run 30s and that works for me since it is somewhat windy where I live. I have noticed over the years that some people have downed all sorts of things, like clipless pedals - its a fad-, index shifting- they can hear you shifting in a race-, and helmets. I can't imagine riding without those items these days. I can't.
There's a beautiful simplicity in the slightly older bike tech. I (recreationally) ride a road bike with rim brakes and tubed tires now and I find it somewhat annoying that my next bike will probably end up having disk brakes and tubeless tires. I see the point for professionals who are racing, but for Joe Blogs like myself, I think the older tech simply makes more sense. It's easier to maintain and cheaper to buy.
I've come quite close a few times, to buying a refurbished high end 1970's vintage road bike. They're the same price as the averagely priced gravel bikes I'm likely to upgrade to next. But then I also want the fancy new gravel bike designs, as they're more suited to the type of riding I do. It's a conundrum, but I suspect a conundrum I'll solve by just giving in to the tubeless disk brake hype eventually.
I'm a classic bike rider (my Giant is 23 years old) but I'm not anti-tech, I just love my Giant Peleton. It was great to see the route you took, as I've cycled it many times, both ways when I lived in the area. Great vid.
It was tech that actually brought me back to cycling! I’ve always been a tech geek in many things and I’ve found the innovation in cycling exciting and happy to use it.
I ride a Colnago C40 1st edition. I did build a modern bike a couple of years ago, but sold it. Didn’t make me any faster, and I like the look of my old frame, and shiny alloy components.
Looks are very important on a bike. I do like polished components and a thin tubed steel frame 🙂
A C40 is a thing of beauty .
Sounds like a great bike! Is it in the bike vault? 👉gcn.eu/app
well done to Si and Simon for making this video, showing both viewpoints. Refreshing.
I think it is cool from GCN to show the average normal sportive rider as 98 percent of us are that all the new tech is literally for nothing for these kind of people. So the new stuff all the companies are selling is only for the pros or for people who like to have the newest freshest stuff for no good reason. My key takeaway from this video is just to avoid buying new bikes at all cost. Thanks GCN for saving me a lot of money i would have spent otherwise! You are the men :-) Greetings Emanuel
To be fair, without new tech and sponsorships, GCN wouldn't be able to survive.
It'd just be a couple people posting to an online blog. Without new tech, we'd already have enough articles and videos on how to do maintenance on our old Shimano 8 speeds.
🤨
He did go faster than he ever went with the help of the new tech. Objectively it is more effective. Subjectively it is debatable how it makes you feel
Had a 8 year old TCR rim break. Loved it never let me down east to maintain and loved riding it. Upgraded last year to a £5.5k Giant Propel. Di2 let me down on an event by malfunctioning. The break fluid leaked all out my break on another event. Costs a bomb to maintain as whenever it has an issue usually to complex for my simple brain to solve. My TcR I could service and fix myself (most of the time).
Doesn’t have same feel when riding it. Don’t doubt for the pros it makes a significant difference but for the average Joe simplicity is better
💯 true ! I love cycling , but don’t want a bike that is complicated and needs expensive fixing !
Just want to ride a bike , change tyres inner tubes brakes and chain when needed !
So the bike that had a rim break , never let you down. Curious statement.
I hardly do any maintenance on modern bikes compared ye old bikes I used to ride with their faffy rim brakes and puncture prone tubes etc.
Despite my dislike of charging batteries, I went wireless on the new bike because the pretty much the only issue with old one was cable fraying inside brifter on multiple occasions and being an absolute pig to sort out. Luckily it never happened out on a ride in middle of nowhere.
... rim brake*
Recently treated myself to a new bike with discs and rival axs electronic gears. My other bike is rim brakes and sora. Disc brakes definitely stop a bit better though not as much as I thought!. Gears perform flawless but so did my mechanical ones. Thing that is strange is that my old bike rides lovely as well, not super sure that the new one was worth the upgrade outlay and it's a pain to stop disc rub on the new one it's OK one day back the next which annoys me to be honest but it does look lovely lol!. Point being maybe I would have been better off with buying new wheels and 105 11 speed gears for the old bike. I think looking back I got taken in with all the hype of the new tech and it works fine but it is definitely not the big jump up I was expecting guys. Wonder if anybody else feels the same?. I am not slagging off the new tech at all by the way it's just I spent a lot of money for me anyway and improvement is not the jump up I expected for that outlay.
it would be interesting if u would be able to compare top high end older rim brake bike vs disc brake bike in same price range and tier of components
I agree. I like all bike tech and some of the new stuff is cool, but what you can do by combining the two (old and new tech) can make for a great experience. I am not against disc brakes, but in my experience, I think that related gains, while not a bad thing, are not game changing and there is no doubt that they add weight and complexity. I've got a 2004 Trek 5500 frameset that I've outfitted with a mixture of new and older parts, and the thing is bullet proof and weights 7 Kg complete with deep section carbon rims. Looks and rides great as well.
Not quite the same but I got a new CX bike and although the discs give a bit more confidence and the wider tyre clearance help with comfort, it's 4kg heavier than my good old canti CX bike and feels much much slower. The internal cable routing on the new bike is awful too and the disc rub 😟
@dan44bmx my new carbon disc brake bike is the same weight as my alloy old bike lol. Electronic gears are 2kg on there own without the weight of the discs!!. Only plus is the system is wireless so no cables. Its the disc rub that passes me off.
Thanks for commenting Steven! Very interesting to hear from someone that has recently made the jump! Do you think you would do it again if you had a second chance? Or are you missing the old bike? 👀
As much as I’m very much in line with Simons opinions (Raced thin bikes as a kid). I absolutely love the look of the modern bike. I’ve just ordered my first disc / DI2 bike after a life time of rim brakes & exposed cables. Congratulations GCN on another great episode 👍
Which bike did you go with?....Congrats my friend and I couldn't agree more about the newer bikes....love the looks. I have my eye on mostly Italian (Pinarello, Wilier and Bianchi) at the moment. Such a great sport....
@@amgolfer3591 CANYON Ultimate SL CF 8 with Ultegra Di2, problem is the wait has now been pushed out to September 😩 l to love the Italian bikes, but I’m afraid that the Colnargo C68 is way beyond my budget.
@@andrewhayes1339enjoy the golf
@@andrewhayes1339 Merida Scultura all the way
Hit the nail on the head cycling in 2013 was expensive but affordable. Cycling in 2023 is no longer affordable. Remember when you could get last year's supersix for £1k with 105. Now £1k gets you an alloy bike with claris and really shit cable disc brakes.
This reminds me of when 29ers were new in mountain biking and people felt slower on them but were actually faster. Feeling fast can be part of the fun, and I would have loved to see Simon's reaction to being faster while feeling slower.
I don't think you can compare mountain biking with road cycling. Road bikes at £1k come with shit groupsets and even shitter mechanical disc brakes. My mountain bike although a hard tail came with hydraulic brakes and airsprung forks for less than £500 from Vitus. Road cyclists are being completely ripped off.
@@anthonykidd6595 i dont think Frederick is comparing - just drawing a relevant analogy
You ain’t going faster though on a bike with more spokes, more weight, rotors rubbing etc than the race bikes that Contador etc ripped around on.
29er gives more suspension so feels slower. Road disc IS slower because less aero and heavier.
@@durianriders is that why Contador's own bike brand uses disc brakes?
29ers don't give you more suspension. It reduces the angle required to roll over an obstacle. A shallower angle results in less loss of momentum. Suspension is from fatter tires or more suspension travel.
You push diets of pure sugar and taking steroids for performance. Nothing I've ever seen you say has been based in reality.
I was faster on my 26" 😅
I still ride my $1500 custom built lugged steel frame with Mavic Pro wheels and Campy Centaur groupset with a Brooks saddle and I love it. But I also used to own a carbon Orbea frame and could definitely feel how much more power went straight to propelling me forward. But, I'm not a racer or group rider so I'm happy with my old school bike.
One thing I always liked was when I upgraded my summer bike, I could put those old parts on my commuter so both bikes got an upgrade. I do hope rim brake parts keep being made as I would in effect need to upgrade two bikes.
no, you would need to have 2 brand new bikes! but honestly what's not to love about that (other than the price)? seriously though there's nothing worse than those fucking rim brakes... he was sticking to his guns but one ride is not enough. the difference doesn't really sink in until you experience a whole year of not having to do ANY adjustments to your brakes because they're hydraulic disc brakes... no new cables, no cable adjustments, no re-centering your brake pads every time you remove a wheel, no re-centering your brake pads... just like in a car they self adjust. the only aspect that comes close to being that same experience is here in the Northeast US, they put salt and other ice melters on the roads, and sometimes that will contaminate the discs, and then it's about the same experience as when you try to stop with wet rims, and similarly dragging the brakes a little bit will clear that up
@Better & Better the cost is the issue. To get the same equivalent 2 bikes I would have to spend 5-6k. Maybe more? It's annoying. BTW I think you are doing something wrong if you need to constantly adjust rim brakes that often. I hardly ever adjust mine sometimes I will adjust the barrel at a traffic stop it's hardly a laborious task.
EXACTLY THIS.
Great point! Although rim brake wheelsets are still out there somewhere 👀
@@gcn WHERE?!?!?
I like this video and I wish there was more of a choice like he said. But he literally said in one sentence about disc brakes everyone is sheep and then about tyre pressures, once I am told, I'll do it forever. Just made me chuckle
😂😂
I'm Old...my SWORX SL6..Rim brakes..5.9 kilo..No electrics..No problems 😊 I also ride Tubs...for the wonderful feel...
High quality rim brake components will become very collectable...
I enjoyed the video a lot..Great guest 👌
Simon is right. People aren't sold rim brake bikes. But there are some companies that still produce high-end rim brakes and rims and frame sets. And their products are sometimes sold out because knowledgeable people buy this stuff.
Depends on usage really
This leads to a question that has different answers depending on whom you ask: Are rim brake wheels and framesets becoming harder to find because of high demand for same, or is it because of low demand? My answer, mirroring Simon's, is it's because there are still a lot of riders who want rim brake options and are snapping them up very quickly when they find them. Others will say, as Si implied, that supply for rim brake frames is low because demand is low. If demand were low (it isn't), it would be induced demand (aka hype) for disc brake frames. A key piece of that is every pro team having been compelled by their suppliers to go disc whether riders wanted to or not. That was very purposeful. Non pros see the pros riding discs, and all those non pros want discs.
@Ranger Smith The people who prefer and buy rim brake bikes are nowadays certainly in the minority. But the supply for this market is rather insufficient and it might get worse as this market shrinks. So when you are looking for a rim brake bike and you have more points which need to be matched it can be hard to impossible to find what you want. Niche high-end components sell out quick and if you didn't get one you need to wait for the next production run.
@@maxsievers8251 Assuming there _is_ a next production run. So far I've not any trouble finding consumables like cables and pads, and I suspect such parts will continue to be available. I'm more concerned about frame sets and wheels.
Some good comments there. I'm in the camp where I reckon I've built up a pretty good all carbon rim brake bike. It's hard to justify the cost of transitioning over to a disc bike any time soon. However, as top end rim brake parts dissappear due to manufacturers not producing new parts any more, then the lack of parts will push the decision. Just hoping that the new wireless Campagnolo groupset is going to have a rim brake option.
Great video and lots of great points from both sides. It's no secret I am a rim brake fan. But I have my reasons which are mainly for practicality. They are lighter, more aero, simple in operation, and I can easily service them myself. Should I end up in the middle of nowhere, service is dead simple. Tools to service them are light, and probably already in the bag. I know I rarely have to, but if I do it's a few minutes. The only other bit of tech distaste that will get me relegated to geezer is carbon fiber. If I buy a bike for 10K, I want it to be an heirloom purchase and not something that has a lifespan due to fatigue of the material. I don't care for aluminum for several reasons, mostly the inconsiderate feel on the body. That leaves me steel or titanium. I don't necessarily hate tech, I just put value on certain things beyond what the glossy ads say.
I rode a 1992 Trek 7000 until this summer. I just can't find the bearings and such to maintain the bottom bracket. On top of that, it's hard to find anything but the cheapest components, at least locally.
What I replaced it with: A Fyxation single speed. I do intend to ride it as a fixie once my fitness improves and I have more authority over the bike for hops, skids and the like. I went for an simpler bike than before, and to this day, I have never ridden a disc brake bike, other than some Canadian tire or Walmart junk.
I really don't think most people need disk brakes. They stop better, but if you don't shift your weight to the rear, your flying over the bars, just like any brake. And if you lock up the rear tire, the brake isn't even doing anything, it's the tire friction.
I like new tech. If I had the cash, I'd certainly get a few top tier mountain and Enduro biked. For my main bike, however, I don't want something that needs new fluids every year
Having used both rim and hydraulic disc brakes for a few decades each, one huge difference is the lack of faff with discs. Pretty much fit and forget, ba the occasional pad change. Vastly better and more consistent braking too which is why folk have moved away from rim brakes.
As for aluminium being harsh to ride, that's last century marketing myths. Your seat post makes more difference than frame material and a few PSI less in your tyre pressure makes an even bigger difference. Same with different tyres tyre. Found the new and very different version of my favourite tyre harsh in comparison compared to old model.
Great video. Makes a nice change to have a genuine counterargument to the bike industry's agenda on the channel.
Having said that I have recently converted to a disc braked Aeroad. Lovely bike, but I am dreading having to do any maintenance on it.
@@clickbait2000 or a trustworthy bike shop / mechanic in case you can’t fix it yourself; the only thing my cheap disk brake needed after 5 years and heavy usage was new chain(s). Which is about the same as my rim brake bike needs. Both haven’t seen a bike mechanic in years.
I build up my disc brake bike with electonic shifting and integrated headset myself. It was pretty easy (not fast, but I had fun), UA-cam university was a big help I should say. And I don't fear servicing it, altough it was not neccessary for a year now. Braking just works, shifting just works. And I'm not a mechanic, not even a hobby builder or so.
@@SrFederico I'm the same as you in as much as I do all my own maintenance. But I do need to buy some new tools so I can work on hydraulic brakes. We've got 4 bikes in the house with them now, so it was inevitable. Sure, it's more time consuming and effort compared to rim brakes. But the point is, which I just reminded myself of by riding a rim braked bike with carbon rims in the wet, braking is orders of magnitude better with discs.
@@RadJim My rim brake experiences date from 35 years ago, so I can't judge the performance of modern rim brakes. But new wheels are mainly developped for disc, so I decided to buy a frame that can easily be updated with the newest tech down the line.
Sure does one need new tools for new tech. Slightly annoying that you need completely different stuff for Shimano vs. Sram hydraulic brakes, though.
I’m convinced once bike companies have got everyone on disc brake bikes, then they’ll start selling/producing rim brake bikes again.
Drum brakes would be nice for a chance 🤔
hahahah
@@pedrova8058 Internal hub wireless drum brakes: 2kg wheelset. Sub 10kg racing bike will cost 20.000 of money, will have 4% stiffer HT with micro diamond bearings, will be 1.7 W faster on 45km TT at 58km/h and will be called Ultralight.
rim brakes still exist, they just suck
The next thing will be electronic brakes, so we can look forward to having battery dependent bikes.😬
I completely agree with the sentiment regarding disc brakes. I don't want to buy a whole new bike, so i keep my cantilevers. This in itself wouldn't be so bad, stuff is still available (just), but then i can't upgrade to the newest groupsets, as cable operated brake levers are being phased out from Shimano's top groupsets. I have just upgraded to Di2, but only because the R7000 shifters and front mech i "upgraded" to were so awful. Hidden hoses and cables on bikes looks great, but the maintenance must be truly horrendous. I feel a lot of new riders don't appreciate how bad things have got and how expensive this sport has become.
For 99% of hardcore amateurs, a custom made steel frame is going to be a far better bike for $3k than some well marketed $6k POS frame from a big brand. Discs are take or leave for road bikes. Even old groups can be amazing to use...I remember being shocked at how silky smooth and quick an Ultegra group from like 2005 was when I tried it a couple years ago.
How much a custom made steel frame costs mate vs frame off shelf? How much tyre can it take? The roads are getting shitter so it needs at least 32mm wide to absorb the bumps.
DA 7800 case in point
@@PhiyackYuhcustom steel frame is 3 grand.
I raced in the early 70's and still ride 30 or more miles a day. I'll take the old bikes over the new. The big improvement has been the placement of the shifters...otherwise, no big deal. Happy to have ridden tens of thousands of miles without modern tech such as speedometers, etc. We rode the bike and enjoyed it, not consumed with numbers on a computer. Grateful to have raced when I did.
18 years ago I got into cycling. I thought downtube shifters sucked until I saw an old racer show me how it's done. You flick them in passing, as you swing your arm. They are not fast and precise, you had to be fast and precise, you had to have skill. Now the machine does it for you. As bad as they seemed, you guys were on to something interesting back then
I'm with you Mark, but a decade later. The biggest improvement for me has been modern brakes (rim or disc), they stop the bike much more effectively than the best of 30 yrs ago.
@@aquilonianace4791I still go to swing my hand down to the top of the downtube sometimes, even 30 yrs later. It's instinctive muscle memory.
I’m ever evolving. Not meaning the latest/greatest but what serves me well at a given situation, time, age, mindset, etc. Started cheap. Evolved to the $1500 range, jumped up and up til I was on S works. Then slowly devolved, finding my love for single speed, steel frames and simplicity. Now aged, I’m back to gears, on alloy and 50mm tires. Whatever works. Live YOUR life.
Hats off to Sí for hanging in there and engaging with Simon. Simon seems to be a traditionalist, holding on to his proven ways. It would be interesting to see how or if Simon’s opinion would be changed had he put on several rides on the Orbea. When it comes to new tech, there are some who are early adapters and some who take a wait & see approach. While neither perspective is wrong for the individual, I personally can appreciate advances in technology while maintaining what works. For instance, when I transition from a steel to carbon frame several years ago, the difference in ride quality was like night & day. Good stuff here GCN!
Should Alex lend his bike to Simon for a little longer? After he watches all him PB's come crumbling down we think he might be swayed 👀
@@gcn Oh please do that. Better yet lend him something like a ultralight bike like a Specialized Aethos. More old school in looks, yet very modern at same time.
I think all new tech is great, but bike industry should focus also on durability and sustainability. I am riding odlschool felt f6, with deep rims wheels from novatec and aero handlebars, I love my bike, but I wish I could have also the fancy new bike. But as Simon said, it does not make financial meaning to buy expensive new bike and also from sustainability point of view, it is really bad decision to replace functionning bike, only because I want to be a 30s faster on climb.
Totally! If one thinks of a bike as a tool for a job, there is very little a good 10 year old rim brake bike cannot do. And unless once competes for every second, is there a need to go a little bit faster?... Hedonic adaptation comes to mind.
Could it be that the bike industry just took a long time to realize that making a good product that works well and lasts a long time is not a good model for a business that wants to survive in the long term? Sadly, quality building bikes that last is what drove many bike companies out of business.
I'm 100% with Simon Warren. I do see upsides to Disc brakes like improved braking performance and I do like Tubleless but the cost to performance ratio is quite poor, love electronic shiting. It isn't worth £1000s to get a slight performance upgrade. In some cases there are even drawbacks where it comes to weight or complexity in repairing some components. I think for the average weekend warrior if the prices were the similar or only slightly more then the upgrades would be worth it but not for £1000s more. A £2500 bike 5 years ago now would set someone back over £4000 now.
Please get Simon Warren back on as a regular
Interesting video. I ride party pace mostly, so I don't need aero.I love riding steel! I have some aluminum but prefer the feel of steel. Love that I can now run super wide (44 mm) supple walled tires at low pressure AND speed (especially on gravel).I love the gravel 'innovations', which are much like the radonneur bikes of the 30's, 40's and 50's. Have mechanical disc brakes on my Kona Sutra Touring Bike and love that my tires don't explode on long descents. Rim brakes for my other bikes: work fine and easy to service myself.Never have to charge battery be abandoned on discharge. I can replace cables myself because they are all external. Think Internal cabling is the shits for "aesthetics " because you are putting looks ahead of practicality. Love head units! His points are good. If you are only offered one style of component, that is all you can buy and if that component is exclusively proprietary, designed only to be fixed by a mechanic with specialized tools, you are preventing self resourcefulness. No advantages here. And we wonder why cycling is not inclusive?! It is pretty clear that a very narrow, VERY expensive spectrum is on offer for new stuff. No thanks!!
Rim for road! Disc for dirt! Simon makes some great points. The bike industry made these changes to make more money and never asked anyone's opinion...plain and simple. I'm fine with tubeless tech. I love wider tires too. But disc brakes are extremely flawed for road. The BIGGEST reason bike manufacturers pushed the change is for these fancy INTEGRATED COCKPITS/CABLES. Think about it...they needed an excuse to make bikes look faster and more aero year by year. At the peak of rim brake tech, we still had exposed cables because there was no way around it. A mechanical rim cable simply cannot bend and turn within a frame like a hydraulic disc cable. Enter disc frames with their super cool "clean" look. It was the wrong move, but not a surprising one. I would be way more tolerant of disc road if only the manufacturers had continued to support and provide rim technology to a decent degree instead of dropping them so quickly. Saying that "there aren't any rim customers left" for the manufacturers to cater to is absolute bull****.
Rim on the road? disc has much better breaking power imagine having to emergency brake in the road and your rims will be destroyed now that's bulls*** your just meatriding "the old times"
This has to be one of the most interesting videos GCN have done in recent times.
Wholeheartedly honest on an industry that’s becoming overly complicated and out pricing itself.
The “tech” they’re putting on bikes really isn’t needed. There was never anything wrong with rim brakes. I owned a custom rim brake Madone 9.9 and bought the disc brake equivalent. It was heavier and felt less responsive. No idea why I sold the rim brake bike and kept the disc, it’s felt slower! I guess I was a sheep!
Now I’ve got a custom Jaegher Ascender Pure, stainless steel tubes, enve wheel set and love it. It’s not what I’d describe as “fast” bike, as in it doesn’t feel super responsive like previous top end racers I’ve had. Yes it’s got discs and Di2(which is a waste of money in my opinion) but I bought it because, I - yes - I liked it! Not because that’s what everyone else was buying which I think is the case as new comers to the sport are taking on. Nothing wrong with that per-say, we all started somewhere but the marketing has really taken over and if we aren’t all on the last 12/13speed groupset with this years colour scheme then it’s not good enough.
People need to start buying what they want, not what they’re told to buy I think is where I’m going with this. If it’s rim brake then so be it, nobody’s getting dropped because they’re not on discs or don’t have electric shifting, that’s just magazine bullshit talk.
I’m not against advances in tech, I think it’s actually super interesting but I can’t help but feel it’s getting more and more further away from the root core of why we ride our bikes - freedom.
Great video. I love disc brakes on a mountain bike but prefer the simplicity of rim brakes. Similarly the internal cabling and electric shifters are more difficult to maintain for those of us who keep our bikes for years. Traditionally 105’s have been a great decent affordable group set.
Except the the important difference is that modern bikes need far less fixing in first place. I hardly ever do anything on my bikes these days. Cables fraying and breaking inside right brifter, being a rare exception [every couple of years] and a PITA to fix. Gone wireless now, specifically because of that.
Rim brakes needed constant faffing and worst of all used to wear through rims. Which was really dangerous. Hydraulic discs are pretty much fit and forget bar the occasional pad change.
I just want to know, what was Simon’s reaction to his 10% climb time improvement?
As he has stated in this video, to build the same lightweight bike with an electronic gearset and disc brakes, he should spend twice the money he has spent to build his own bike. Does this worth a 10% improvement?
@@gpersonaltrainer To build a bike as light as his, yes. But a bike costing the same as he spent, using (fatter, heavier) modern tech, would still probably be faster! Also - inflation has been brutal in recent years so that needs to be taken into account.
@@ollyhorne4651Well, having a lot of money, I would agree with you, but being on a limited budget, it's not just about the initial cost, but you should consider how much you pay to mantain the "modern" bike in good working order. Not mentioning the "pain in the gluteus" you are going to have to find a reliable bike shop which eventually will serve your bike professionally, without asking you an arm and a leg.
It might have had something to do with the car or motorbike they were following.
@@matthew7419 Maybe, probably a bunch of factors tbh. My guess is that the guest rider doesn't usually ride on camera, or with retired pros (I may be wrong) - so he may have put more effort in than usual, for a start!
I am with Simon. Maintaining a bike was super easy, now we are forced into disc brakes (hydrulics) while most of us seasoned cyclists want the new tech that is compatible with rim brakes.
@Alan A:
Rim brakes are far from dead. I sell about 200 of my sub 1000 gram wheelsets a year. But the disc brake ones sell far better to be honest. I think the trend on going disc brake is because of marketing and most bike brandsare not even selling rim brake models anymore. If you live in a relatively flat area, rim brakes save you weight and the looks is better also.
@@Unix_BasedI'd counter with "bike weight is overrated ", "looks are subjective" and "rim brakes absolutely suck in the wet"
@@macvosnot to mention rim brakes suck in the mountains with higher speeds and long descents. Disc brakes maintain braking power much better than rim brakes.
I loved Simon Warren’s comment about the technology he enjoys using to track his decline, and as a rider in my 60’s I totally get it. Personally, the tech is fun and I go for some of it; on the other hand, the engine is deficient and only getting weaker. Great video. One more comment: I have to laugh at all the GCN indoor trainer content and comments. I live in Texas, not the UK. If it’s rainy today, it’ll probably be sunny tomorrow, and I’m certainly not gonna labor in a pain cave trying to convince myself I’m having fun.
"people do as they're told, they're sheep" bravo, 100% correct (around the 08:40 mark) also totally agree on the disc brakes "revolution" that required a all new everything (similarly to MTB) and forcing this down our throat.
From an elderly type Mtb I was amazed about the braking ability of my first GT Zaskar Mtb with hydraulic disc brakes!! I have later built my own Superbike with oversize, double caliber, hydraulic disc Brakes, and I would never change back to rim brakes!!
Whether new bikes are better than old bikes is beyond doubt. the important question is whether the best bike for you is necessary. for me, who am an recreational cyclist, the most important things are comfort and durability when it comes to choosing a bike. For many parts of the bike, durability will exclude carbon. And also, dependance of batteries is not sougt after, witch exclude electronic gearing.
it's heresy to plug in a bicycle
Modern bikes in a nut shell, 1) don't forget to charge your derailleur batteries both of them 2) your tire sealant is balled up and gross, so put on your hazmat suit and change it 3) your tire popped off again hitting a pothole, and then again hitting a rock, hookless is so awesome 3) your lightweight carbon rim has a crack in it from normal riding 4) your bike cost $1Xxxx and it doesn't matter you're still 20KG overweight 5) oh dang a crack in the frame, through away the frame 6) Yes, that is your disc/pads rubbing 7) yes that is your disc/pads squealing 8) yes your seat post, stem, bars, headset, and 10 other things are proprietary. Also your model is discontinued and you can't get those parts anymore. No aftermarket parts will fit, because aero 9) so aero bro...except you aren't racing at 30MPH for 4 hours (well maybe .01% of you are) 10) Your father and grandfather's bike are a functional heirloom which can and will continue working as designed for decades...your $15000 Taiwanese whatever is irrelevant just like an iPhone 5.
I love that you brought up Zwift. I have become addicted to it and it has increased the amount of riding I do each year. I wish some bike equipment manufacturers would be more supportive of older technology. I had a bike that was equipped with a SRAM Red etap 11 speed setup but one of my shift controllers became defective. I had a hard time finding a replacement for it. The only other alternative was a complete upgrade of my groupo. The technology was not very old but SRAM had already moved on to newer and better technology.
Yeah even 105 has gone electric.
@@davidspendlove5900 Fortunately Shimano backtracked and made a mechanical version to keep it affordable. Having 105 in di2 would lose a large segment of their consumers because of it's price range.
@@LimaFoxtrot032 Yes but personally I will be moving to Tiagra now if I need new components.
Great vid, very balanced too. GCN obviously get some sponsorship from big bike companies that market their tech upgrades, fair play though for presenting both sides of the argument. I liked how at the end of it, none of it mattered, you had a great ride in the peaks and stopped off for a coffee and chat. That's what it's all about. 👍
Enjoying riding your bike is the main thing 🙌
I appreciate that Mr. Warren takes these things case by case. Personal preferences are shaped by our circumstances. He's the guy who writes books about beautiful climbs. He's not racing. So yeah, easy to maintain light weight bikes makes sense. (Although, I think Di2 is way easier to maintain than mechanical.) Personally, I have no interest in indoor training, but maybe that's because my commute to work is a bike commuter's dream (New York City to Nyack) and I get all my training done there. Great video, thanks!
Everyone has their views 🙌 That's why riding a bike is so fun!
I think you misunderstand what makes riding a bike fun. It’s not about views of people but the views enjoyed by people.
Spot on!! People take what you give them, as sheep do their own feed.
The disc brake is purely for the manufacturer and the local bike shop mechanic. Before the Disc brake was forced upon us, We heard no one clambering for disc brakes.
Did you hear "I want disc brakes!! I need disc brakes!! Everyone should have disc brakes!!" ?
I didn't and I know that you didn't either.
Awesome video. In some ways Simon W is set in his ways such as skinny tyres which are headache inducing but I agree with most of what he says. I’m still riding a rim brake carbon bike with some top parts, often bought used or discounted. I don’t think I will be go disc and internal cables because of the faff. Like the idea of having to get the stem length right on a one piece cockpit - €3-500! No way! Replacing outer cables/hoses - a morning’s work, although I know that there’s less chance of them needing replacing because they don’t see the road grime.
However, I do run 25mm tyres at 85/90psi (thanks to the silca website for that) and they feel great. I have 35mm rims hand built with bladed spokes and they are mega stiff and responsive.
This nice thing about Strava, headunits and zwift is that you have the choice and it’s optional. Once you buy a modern bike, almost any bike, you’re committed to their cockpit, their aero seatpost, internal cables, whichever of the numerous BB designs they use (some of which, DUB, looking at you, wear out in months). Bikes have become less and less universal in design and that is a massive pain in the backside, but that said that’s been a trend for a long time.
There’s never been so much choice but at the same time the choice has never been so narrow
I sort of agree, I like the integrated cables and all that from a looks and maintenance view, hell my current bike has zero cables so the maintenance is literally replace some brake pads from time to time.
It would be nice though if there was a sort of consistent way to design that entry point from the stem to the head tube.
That said, there's not that much to consider, all you need is a consistent way to interface from the bars to the stem and stem to head tube and it would be easy to make a bunch of intercompatible components.
I'm sure in time the components industry will come up with a way. One thing people don't consider is that all this integration is relatively new, and the bikes it was introduced on aren't yet ready for their second life where they might get a whole bunch of different components strapped to them. Much like some of this stuff in the electric vehicle world, you just need the volume of bikes being faffed with to see the big components manufacturers invest into developing for it.
@@morosis82 agree with the last point about R&D. And aesthetics of internal cables. The bikes look amazing and minimalist, but from a mechanics point of view they are anything but minimalist and it’s not good to have up to 4 cables running through such a small moving space, degrading over time with friction of steering.
On the point about consistency in cockpit integration we already have consistency in 1’8” steerer tubes and 31.8mm handlebar diameter and aero bars are available in this sizing. With a simple headset design the cables can still go through the head tube (similar to Trek) but instead we have dozens of designs with minute differences all trying to achieve the same thing.
It’s just frustrating that we suddenly have an obligation to use disc brakes, integrated cables and such a variety of proprietary parts. It was one step at a time for a long time, for example with handlebar clamps from 25.4 to 31.8mm then this and then that. Now we’re saturated with proprietary parts which will be obsolete in a decade and with no obligation on manufacturers to continue producing replacement parts (in the EU it’s 5 years if I remember correctly)
@@jtmuso I would be willing to bet the different methods of doing hidden cables is because patents.
I can see how it's frustrating as someone that only usually sees a bike when it requires maintenance, but as the rider of said bike I just almost never have to touch any of that stuff, so it's a net benefit.
I was more talking about a standard way of getting cables from bar to stem to head tube rather than the sizes of those tubes so that the Deda's and Zipp's of the world can make their bars and stems in a way that will work with other brands.
He is absolutely right. The amount of money for what little of a difference you get is insane.
Yeah but if they offered all the high end components in rim brakes like hes wanting theyd still be expensive. He said himself if youre starting from scratch it makes sense.
This. The cost/benefit ratio is so high that it makes you wonder if there is actually something about the conspiracy
@@TacticalGamingFoolI disagree. The 6th gen TCR is the best and fastest TCR for my body geometry and fitness. It is more aero and stiffer and handles better than newer generations. It even looks faster. The new one has a better weight stiffness ratio but overall it is a softer frame. There is no better bike for me than my TCR with wake 6560 wheels. I won't trade this bike with anything brand new. I love it so much I have two 6th gen TCRs. One OD1 and one OD2. Disk brakes are not efficient after 50-100 miles. They start rubbing if you ride it hard. I use disk brakes only on my fat and downhill trail bikes because the tires are too wide. The only good thing about disk brakes; it allows you to have much wider tires. However on a road bike there is no reason to sacrifice the frame geometry and aerodynamics for just having disk-brakes. Rim brake frames (not new rim brakes) will always be faster. When they compare they don’t do fair work. Try the older frames with newer faster wheels and integrated aero handlebars. I also noticed that older frames handle better on crosswinds but I didn’t ride newer frames long enough in poor weather conditions to gather sufficient data. The speed is something I can clearly see and tell the difference. My top speed and climbing speeds are 2-3 miles faster on my 6th gen than on 8th gen TCR. The new 8th gen is also ugly. I like the cut seat tube, wide wing shaped head tube on 6th gen vs square ugly looking skinny 8th gen frame.
@travelersimports6915 i dont know that much about bikes but your argument makes sense. Definitely wouldnt pit it past corporations selling us what we dont need but once theyre convince the latest is the greatest they wont buy the old stuff. Also just because your bike os perfect for you doesnt mean its for everyone.
@@TacticalGamingFool Latest is not always the greatest unfortunately except the new dub cranksets :). They are awesome :)…You are correct. Totally. There is no one frame fits all. It all depends on your body geometry, weight and fitness level. Whatever frame puts you in the most aero position while giving you a confort to maximize your power output, it is the best road bike frame for you. Unfortunately without riding and testing various frames there is no other way to find out which one fits you the best. There are certain factors you can use to narrow down your search, such as stiffness, wheel base (shorter chain is better for me), preferred tire width, and the reach. Tire width is something you want to know before buying the frame and the wheels. And never buy a whole bike because it will never fit you perfectly. It is like purchasing a suit. Taylor made suit will always fits you the best. For instance, XL size bikes always come with 175mm cranks, 100 mm stem and 460mm wide bars. I use 177.5mm, 120mm stem and 400mm wide bars. These small changes make a huge difference and could be why my 6th gen is quicker then a new TCR with 460mm wide bars.
Great honest review, I guess he's probably right there should be more choice available, some people can't afford 10k + aero bike, both systems still have their place in the industry.
Glad you enjoyed the video! One of the best things about cycling is that it can be affordable for everyone - check out this video we've put together around buying a second hand bike 👉 ua-cam.com/video/W6jDWaruzZ0/v-deo.html
I haven't tried electronic...but I have seen a number of people forget to charge their batteries, even in races. I admittedly kinda miss having a rim brake road bike.
The wide tires, low pressure concept only works if the road is bumpy and uneven enough for the setup to shine. If you have the kinds of roads I really enjoy riding on (super smooth tarmack) with my road bike,
Right. Also live in an area with mostly good, if any less than perfect roads. With 25 mm tyres at around 7 bars (100 psi) I can safely descent my favorite local hill (1.7 km/1.1 m, average gradient 6 %, four hairpin turns) without braking. Never felt any discomfort that could be caused by too narrow tyres. I do understand 28 mm if you usually ride in an area with shitty roads. If you still ask for more comfort and even wider tyres (for pur road riding that is), you should ask yourself if road cycling is the right sport for you at all.
I'll never get tired of the feeling of crushing someone riding the dopest tech with my vintage Benotto. A bad workman always blames his tools. Don't get me wrong, I love tech and research. If you're riding to make a living, then the question should be, "will this tech help me win or make money?" If you're a recreational rider, then it should really come down to one simple question, "will get more joy?"
Simon Warren is a proper old school cool guy.
What he says about people are all sheep they do as their told.
And about you either change or be left behind.
So relevant with past COVID or just life in general.
Just got back from a wonderful ride with a buddy, and I was on my '82 Olmo Competition with pantographed Campagnolo Nuovo Record parts and 6 speed freewheel. Great bike, great ride, great fun! The biggest issue for older, out of date bikes is just getting replacement parts, and that can be a challenge.
Do you think that is a problem for cycling or older tech in general? Across lots of industries it can be hard to get hold of older parts.👀
@@gcn It's a common problem to deal with. When I worked as an electronics engineer at an earthmoving equipment manufacturer, we routinely redesigned electronics to support 20 or 30 year old machines. Mechanical parts were available for much older machines. By comparison, here in the USA, automobile parts are legally required to be available for only 10 years.
I had an '83 Pearl White Olmo (forgot the actual model name) with SLX Columbus tubing, and all period Super Record gruppo on it.
Mavic SSC hard anodized 'Paris Roubaix' rims laced to the SR 32 hole hubs with straight 14 gauge stainless spokes with various Clement silk casing, or Conti cotton cased tubulars glued to them.
Full Cinelli 'cockpit', and a then new Selle Italia Turbo saddle to top it all off.
I even a minor Italian pro team's wool jersey with the brand's embroidery emblazoned large across the chest.
Yes, I miss that bike and it's simplicity.
@@Fordworldrallyfan Sounds nice! Olmo seemed to like to call their top model "Competition"... although there were various versions. A good silk tubular is a wonderful thing!!
"The bike's been reinvented and nobody ever asked us.." Nailed it....
My problem with new tech is that the old tech isn't all that bad, but repeatedly channels (like GCN) and brands show all the new stuff without looking further. Besides the stuff getting mighty expensive many riders still have older bikes, like 'older' Simon mentions.
What I mean? Only two years ago Pogacar won the tour using rimbrakes on some of the stages, now we are told that the only safe option is discbrakes. While, how I look at it, the development is more like this:
- We have rimbrakes
- We want more aero... higher wheels!
- But they get too heavy
- Make them carbon!
- But now they don't brake in the wet!
- Discbrakes!
Discbrakes are better than rimbrakes, sure, but a decent setup with aluminium braking surfaces works fine for the average rider.
Not all 'new' tech is good tech, everyone seems to applaud BBs going to T47 now, but didn't we also applaud pressfit? It was so much nicer, stiffer, 'better' than BSA wasn't it?
Great video Si. Rim brakes for me! I actually want build a fast best drive road bike next - N+1.
I really enjoyed this video, it was great to hear the two Simon's opinions on modern bikes. Of course they are more efficient in almost every way; I'm glad Simon Warren referred to the cost aspect. I love my 8 year old semi-superbike, I also love my 38 year old superbike (which in my opinion is the coolest bike anyone can ride) and I enjoy riding them both for very different reasons. I'm sure I'd really enjoy riding a modern superbike but the reality is I cannot afford one. I shall continue riding my old bikes and probably continue getting half-wheeled and smashed by my mates on their up to date superbikes. As for amateur racing, it would seem we will be forced to invest to remain competitive.
This guy’s idea of old tech still seems awfully modern to me.
one of your best videos...I also prefer rim brake and oldschool 9-11 speed and instead Zwift I go out for a little running. To be true with MTB I changed 3 years ago from Steel, 3x9 and 26" to Carbon 1x12 and 29 after a short ride and I was impressed. (Some) things change but I would never change my CX bike from 1x9 1-28 with mini v brake 🙂
Kudos to GCN for fresh idea for a video! 🤟 …personally, I believe both brake options make sense and should remain to be equally offered!
Glad you enjoyed the video 🙌 What else would you like to see on the channel? 👀
But sadly, both options are NOT.
Every month it becomes harder and harder to find rim brake wheels/rims, especially those which are not the now 'requisite' 25mm minimum outside width. 👎
There are still multi-millions of (even high end) rim brake bikes still out there in this world.
That ALL of the current wheel manufacturers are TOTALLY giving up on this market, just because it is not the 'hot and sexy' latest and greatest thing, is complete asininity.
I love to see all the new innovations, and I'd happily buy things that look like they'd be good value for MY money. I'd love to try electronic shifting but I cannot justify the cost. Maybe in 10 years it will be affordable?
In ten years, you'll have a tough time finding replacement parts for these new bikes.
I had 11sp dura ace Di2 (Rim) but I sold it and bought Campag record mechanical, I know that sounds nuts to some but I missed it.🤷🏻♂️
@@e3dave744 Does not surprise me at all. I frequently miss the nice tube-based radio I had as a kid (yeah, I'm old). It was noisier and far less efficient that my current chip-based radio, but ...
I have to say I do agree with a lot of what this guy was saying. That’s why a couple of years ago am went for a rimbrake tcr with cable integra. Best of both worlds. Super stiff frame, efficient gears, brakes that I can all maintain myself.
Would love to see him on the show again. Would be so interesting to see if he changes perspectives on modern tech or be reaffirmed. Also, totally agree with the maintenance and affordability part. Everyone should be able to easily maintain or modify their bikes and adjust tem to their needs without paying a fortune. Otherwise biking becomes quite an elitist thing and also the lack of ability to modify robs the hobby of its personality imo.
I love new tech as much as Si, but I know exactly what Simon is talking about. I have a 20 year-old mtb that I would love to restore but finding 26” rim brake wheels that aren’t crap is pretty much impossible. I could get a second life out of this bike if only I could find all the parts I need. Not everyone is looking to hunt KOMs or ride as fast and aero as possible. Some just want to ride for the fun it brings.
Try Pashley?
I have been riding for quite some time now, 16 years, and I can say based on my experience, 8-10 years is a good time to buy a new replacement bike since the tech will surprise you and it's fun. But always consider your budget first and whether it's something you will enjoy. If you replaced the bike too often, you will find the advancement to be trivial.
Disc brakes make sense on carbon wheels, particularly in the wet on or on long descents. Aero frames and electric groupsets give advantages when racing (or when emulating racing as in a fast group ride). I find some of these things interesting, but I just don’t need them for where and how I ride. I’ll stick with my steel frames, aluminum rims, and rim brakes.
Nothing wrong with that! Sounds like a great bike 🙌
Finally some common sense, I love he was honest and laid it out there. is the bike nice? yes, is it worth spending 10k or more on it? hell no
doesnt fit the GCN narrative of shelling equipment in every other video....
nobody is forcing you to pay 10k for a bike. nowadays 1.5k bikes are still way ahead of yesteryears high end bikes
@@Sai-tb1xt yes and no, what 1500 buys you now struggles to compete with what you used to get for the same amount 5 years ago, but that's not really the point. More the fact they tried to "win him over" with a bike that costs 10k and above to which he rightly replied lovely bike can't justify the price of a very good family car. Pretty sure if they went for the standard model of the orca aero (4.5k give or take ) he would have said absolutely not.
@@albe56 i agree with you partly
i think the price was not the point but more like a comedic try to go all into tech and try to show what is possible
if they used 105 di2 and shallower wheels , i guess it would make no difference in the context of this video but you would be more in the 5 k range (which is the same value as roughly 4,5k from 1985)
but i am 80% with you on this one
I ride a 2007 Trek Madone SSL6.5 with DuraAce 7800. The frame was Armstrong's super light mountain stage bike in his last pre come back Tour. I love it & have no compulsion to replace it. The rim brakes work great, the gears like new, it it looks fantastic. Only thing is 25mm tyres are the biggest that'll fit, but I can live with that. Pulling into a bike cafe it still makes me proud.
This was a brilliant video to watch siting on my trainer 👍🏻 I hope you can do a second video with him but on a 100km ride on a sunny day💪🏻
We don't think the Peak district has sunny days 😂
There is a holy trinity. It is: Rim Brakes, exposed cables and a Mechanical groupset.
You can see the public opinion trending towards this now. Disc brakes are now seen as "uncool" and "stupid". And that will be all it takes to reverse the direction of the bike manufacturers.
Very interesting. Point about the disks bang on; it’s not about what people want or even what’s better performance-wise but the need to sell new products to consumers and steer them in the direction of buying new stuff whether they want it / need it / can afford it or not.
As an older rider anything over 20mph means that I am going down the slope. I don't ride fast enough for aero to be a major concern.
I do share some of Simons points. I would love to adopt more of the modern tech, but it isn't compatible with older frames and I can't afford to replace everything. I have 5 bikes and I can swap components among them as I need to.
Though my #1 concern is robustness. Having been in a number of accidents over the years (debris on the road, animals running into me, and so on) I really want to be able to get home. I have bent Al rims and steel frames and still ridden home. That wouldn't quite work with carbon rims.
I have a bike with hyd-disc brakes, and I really like them. But at the same time my rim brakes have never failed to deliver more stopping power than I have in traction. Why would I need more? I do truly appreciate modern tires. They are light years better than the old skinny ones.
The other thing is related to the longevity of bikes. Some of my frames (steel and Al) are nearly 50 years old.
Si, how would you feel about riding a 50 year old carbon frame and fork?
If I was still riding competitively I would be in 100%. The efficiency gains are great.
But the cost is very steep.
On the plus side this trend has created an opportunity for me to buy used equipment from 10-15 years ago when these modern trends were just appearing. That equipment is still largely compatible with old-style bikes and lets gain a little aero and reduce weight for a discounted price. Or for that matter I could go out today and buy a new Ultegra Di2 11spd rim brake groupset for very nice price.
The first MOUNTAIN bike I had with disc brakes was such an amazing change. I couldn't believe it. And then I got HYDRAULIC disc brakes, and they were Avid Juicy.. whatever the top line was.
But in MTB, I do love going hard all the way to the corner and then getting onto the brakes. It makes it fun.
But like you, I've never felt like my rim brakes were unsafe. Well, except once, on a 6 mile descent down a mountain.
That one WAS sketchy and I could absolutely NOT go hard as I could have. Things like brake fade, heat, etc became very real.
For 99.9999% of my cycling, I'm trying to go FASTER and that's hard enough; I don't need brakes! 😉
Chicken sticks
Simon Warren's Time is a thing of beauty, and I don't think there's going to be any other bike in his opinion that could look or be better.
Or be faster, or feel faster, or be more maintainable, or long-lasting.
I'm still riding my 09 Giant TCR Advanced SL (integrated seatpost mast). It's been a great ride. I did change out the groupset to 11sp Shimano DuraAce (9000), which I will argue is the most aesthetically pleasing DuraAce groupset of the last 20 years. My issue with the most recent tech is that bike product manufacturers have failed to come up with a quick release system for disc brake hubs. It's now a pain in the ass to remove the wheel from frame without carrying some sort of tool. If I want to store my bike in the trunk (boot) of my car, I can have both wheels off in about 20 seconds by simply flicking the quick release levers on both hubs. When there are quick release disc brake hubs, I might be convinced to get a new bike.
I'm also not convinced that tubeless wheels and tires would make my riding any more enjoyable. I do have the occasional flat but when I do I'm not having to deal with messy sealant. Unless I have a catastrophic tear in the sidewall, I can have the flat fixed in less than 5 minutes and be on my way.
The thing that frustrates me is how extremely difficult it is to change tubeless tires. It is ridiculous! The days of easily changing a tire in 5 minutes are gone! I now have to take my bike to a shop to change a tire. I have even had to walk home (fortunately only about 1 mile) because I couldn't change the tire, which is something I have been doing for 20 years. I absolutely agree that the bike industry doesn't give a crap about what we really want. Don't even get me started on ditching high end mechanical groupsets!
As a bike mech, I can say it's not specific to tubeless. I'd say it's more about tyre-rim combination. On road bike, rim hook and tyre bead are supposed to be 622 mm of diameter. But around that standard, manufacturers tends to take margins. If you have a rim that is a bit taller or a tyre a bit tighter, that's a bit harder to do. If it both a the same time, that's when it starts to get tricky... But that's regardless if it's tubeless or not.
But I totally agree on high end mechanical groupset even worse on average groupset. Still don't get Shimano's choice of ditching 105 mechanical groupset.
I got a new bike last August and made sure I got tubes so I wouldn’t have to worry about tubeless. I also find regular tubes hold air much better than tubeless
And why do the trade keep saying "tubeless ENABLES you to use lower pressure". You can just as well lower the pressure of tubed tyres.I followed the Silca tyre pressure site and they got me to lower my 100 lbs down to 70 lb rear and 68 front..Much more comfy ride especially on chip and fill rough roads
Nobody forces you to tubeless
@@walterhofer937 They have forced people onto them .Planet X now only sell their excellent Pro Carbon bikes in tubeless AND disc s too, both of which are a retrogade step .Their range are now not available in normal tubes which DON T take a canister of C O 2 to seat the tyre .What I object to is they say it "enables you to ride at lower tyre pressures " which is a direct lie as tubes can just as well be lowered to the same pressures which are found to be faster on normal chip and fill type rough UK roads . The only time I ve seen road bike users walking back home is when they have had a big blow out on tubeless and can t repair it or get air in them
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ~Henry Ford
Always found that quote hilarious. Simply because if Ford was in the horse dealing business, he would sell people exactly that. Faster horses.
Let's not pretend companies are giving people what they want or need. They are giving people the most expensive thing they can get away with.
80% of people are WAY less capable than their bikes to begin with, but that doesn't stop them from wanting even better bikes. Because they are constantly bombarded with marketing hype and the newest, shiniest thing. So people naturally think they're missing out.
Yes, it’s a fun quote, but they might have said, “faster wagons for most applications and faster horses for conditions where wagons are not viable.” But that’s not as self-aggrandising.
@@QlickyCompanies definitely don’t always sell people what they want. I drive a Honda fit which is still a very popular car but Honda stopped importing it into the US. If I had to guess it’s because they couldn’t charge a lot for the car since it’s so simple.
Rim brakes, 10-speed Campa Record and modern wheels is what i like. Carbon frame for everyday speed, but my loved Basso Loto Steel for the good days.