What plan?! What goddamn plan?! Tahiti? Timbuktu? Trusting Micha with everything when he's done nothing to earn it? Killing hadi mccort? Getting involved in two families who were on to us halfway through? Strangling an old woman? Using the native Americans to run away? Leaving John to hang? Abandoning Abigail & leaving Jack an orphan?
I'd argue his plan was never to settle down with the gang or himself. All those monologues and speeches he tells the gang are deceitful and manipulative. He just wanted to crusade against authority. Dutch never cared about the money he only wanted mayhem and blind obedience.
I think Dutch's plan was exactly what he was doing. Nothing. He didn't WANT to change, he WANTED to fight the government and he WANTED to stay an outlaw. Arthur said it best "we're living in a world that don't want folks like us no more" and even Uncle "he wants to be an American king, and we are his knights" There are a lot of hints that Dutch doesn't really care about the gang or that he sees himself as better than them, his clothes and jewelery for a start, his living quarters, he has a nice tent and a bed while everyone else is sleeping in the dirt, Arthur is the only other one that has a bed. There was one scene that really made me realize that Dutch was only looking out for himself and it's the chapter where Lenny dies, and before Lenny dies, the gang has holed up in that abandoned house, catching their breath, Lenny is sitting in a chair and Dutch, rather than let him have it, shoos him away so HE can sit there, he doesn't dare bring himself to sit on the floor, even in dire situations.
I think the first paragraph held true. But, I think at around chapter 2, after surviving the winter in the mountains and reading Evelyn Miller’s books, he started to see himself as a Moses like character. And then from there, feeling the heat, he was on a gradual decline until both Hosea and Lenny died. At which point, all he had to talk sense into him was Micah. Micah, who had been beefing up his ego, cultivating his paranoia and showing him the fun in causing chaos for the sake of chaos is what pushed him over the edge. After Arthur death, he was broken. After he killed Micah, he could finally free himself of his past life and become fully unhinged as a Dutch/Micah hybrid.
I think Dutch was winging it from the ferry heist. He liked the idea of being an outlaw and a Robin Hood kind of character but I think Hosea's death finally broke him. The weird chess thing he was doing after they all got back from Guarma made me immediately start to question his decisions
Agree with this. The gang could have probably lasted longer if they had better planned crimes (reconnaissance before the heists, escape plans, disguises, etc.) and more creative crimes (Arthur mentioned in his journal a long con him and Hosea were working on before the Blackwater ferry heist messed things up). Dutch, I think, liked the big home run plays with a lot of noise and flash. The Saint Denis robbery they just rode into a major city as a big posse with no disguises and members being wanted in multiple states. Then Dutch acts like a shocked mastermind when the Pinkertons immediately show up.
@@TheTrooper506right, that bank jest had zero chances to be a success. They rode there with entire crew, dressed all black and tried to rob a bank days after murdering Bronte... Bruh. Also m Dutch does the same thing in 1911 in Blackwater lol
@@TheTrooper506yeah Dutch was slipping for a while. I started getting fishy about Dutch and his plans during the Clemons Point/Rhodes chapter. Dutch underestimated the families and got played. He then made all that noise and the Jack rescue and then all that stuff in St. Denis. Too much stuff happened in too short amount of time.
If the plan is robbing a trolley station in broad daylight based on the word of one person, he just met with no escape plan and reconsissance work. Then, yes, Dutch did have a plan. Really crappy plan, but a plan nonetheless.
Funny thing about Tahiti, by that point in history the French had control of it. Had he actually done enough effort in his planning, he probably would have preferred Australia.
Why do I get the feeling that was part of Dutch’s plan? Like arrive at Tahiti, pretend to realise “the damn French are in charge” and wage a war against the French government for control of the island
I suspect Dutch would settle down if forced, but his ideals, goals and dreams pretty much forced him to fight to the end. A poetic knight of a dead world order that never was more than a stillborn whisper.
His plan was to go to Tahiti, and all they needed was to do just one more job. But there was always going to be just one more. Dutch loved the outlaw life too much to give it up.
I'd never heard the sum of the money hidden at the final camp (never went for it)... that is staggering, and says so much about Dutch. This story is so heart-wrenching and good.
actually its one of the endings there is that decision when you're with john you can go with him or go back to the camp to get the money, but yeah, it's worthless
The fact that there's posters of land for sale in every town and the artist friend was able to escape to the island so easily always infuriated me, cuz their problem could've been easily solved, Dutch just liked the chaos.
Seeing how easily the artist got away to Tahiti and then getting letters from him saying how good it was there when we were still sitting in a malarial swamp really pissed me off. That said it was a lot easier to sneak one guy onto a boat than 20 odd people that were already wanted bybthe Pinkertons is a different matter. I just remember having like 20K in chapter 3 and having Dutch still complaining about needing money and thinking ffs how much do you need Dutch Ive got 20K here by myself...
@@stevepalpatine2828 I agree and collected so much money only for dutch to say "I have a plan to get us a boat " "One more time and we vanish". Dutch was full of himself.
@jaredmccain7518 Bro before we moves to Shady Belle I had all camp upgrades and 20K in my own cash and about 8K I put in the Camp box. To then find out Dutch was sitting on 40K on top of that like what lol? Dutch never had any plan other than to keep being an outlaw. There were so many times we could have run. You can easily make 20K stealing and selling high class stage coaches and gold bars.
@@stevepalpatine2828 Shame. All that talk from dutch and he was holding out from everyone. What a hypocrite and we could have left at any time and probably been fine if we didn't need to rob the Braithwraiths . But not dutch. Dutch got issues. Then micha was no help at all and wanted to shoot anyone he felt like. I wish we could have left him jail .
If Dutch really listened to Hosea, not robbing Cornwall's train days after the failed ferry heist and had not murdered Angelo Bronte the dismemberment of the gang would not have occurred so easily, just 4 months after the ferry heist.
Hosea made bad choices too. His plan was to play the two families against each other in Rhodes, whoch was a disaster and a stupid plan. Hosea also was the one pushing for the St Denis Bank robbery. Hosea was no genius
Bill‘s plan really made so much money. Bill was way closer to a real plan than Dutch 💀 Just one heist in Valentine and real information + the weirdly op combination of Bill, Lenny, Arthur and Karen
At least Walter said, "He liked it". That gave him a nice closure. Such kinda line with Dutch would've been amazing. Like he finally accepting that he just liked authority and his own crusade against powerful people. it was never about some Tahiti oe Australia
I think Dutch is an egomaniac, he saw himself as an enigmatic leader, and much like a cult leader he got joy from having followers and having them follow his teachings. But as it turned out he wasn't the man he preached. In the end he shot Micah, but not because it was the right thing to do only because he had to get out of the situation and he had finished with Micah. He didn't care about Arthur or the others he was only in it for himself.
Pretty sure he shot Micah because he finally realized his mistakes listening to Micah and not his son Arthur dying right in front of him while watching Micah tore the gang apart without consequences. He came for revenge against someone that ruined his empire and someone that screwed him over. Just like how he came for revenge with Bronte for screwing him up.
Dutch didn't care for Arthur in the moment. Without Hosea on his side and Arthur doing missions behind his back (and Micah instigating on Dutch's ears), he was lead to the decision to turn his back on Arthur and run away. It was only years later when John told them the truth.
@@YTFanaticI don't think that John's words had anything to do with Dutch shooting Micah. Dutch would have killed Micah on his own, even if John and Sadie wouldn't have showed up. Dutch even hints at this in the dialogue: John: "What are you doing up here, Dutch?" Dutch: "Same as you, I suppose..." Dutch knew that John and Sadie weren't after his head, but after Micah's. So this answer to John's question is a dead giveaway to what he was about to do with Micah. As much of a flawed person Dutch might be, this seems to be the one time where he was able to figure out and accept the mistake he made by trusting in Micah, without the help of the likes of Hosea and co.
@@EinFritzMitXi think dutch went to mount hagen with no plan and hadnt even decided if he was gonna kill micah, he was just winging it. if john and sadie hadnt shown up, he might have just not killed micah and ended up teaming up with him again just my opinion-based theory though
Dutch, in my opinion, never had an actual plan to get out of the outlaw life, because for Dutch it was never about the destination, it was all about the journey. Dutch wanted an excuse to keep going on living the life he wanted to live, and as his actions show, he it didn't matter who got hurt - like the way he betrayed the Wahpiti Indians, and how he both left John and Arthur to die, and how he was willing to abandon Abigail and leave Jack an orphan. Dutch was a selfish man, who viewed his people as mere accomplices, and who were easily disposable when they no longer suited his purposes - kinda like how he strangled the old lady on Guarma after she led them part way through the passage and then demanded more money and he had none to give. Dutch, even though he is admittedly a fictional character, his character is a brilliant representation of: "Believe what people do and not what they say." Hell, even children are known by what they do, as to whether they are good or not.
How could he if his character in a nutshell is like "Don't worry guys, i have a pla-" *gunshots* *characters die* "umm... don't worry guys! I. Have. a. PLA- *town shootout* , *some of the gang distrust dutch* "Guys, you gotta have some goddam fai-" *Betrays Arthur and John* "... .... lets keep moving Micah ... ..."
One thing that really hit it home of how insane Dutch was is that he said “let’s go to New York and make a lot of noise.” Shows just out of touch he was about everything, they are the most hunted gang in America at that point and he wants to go to one of the busiest city’s in the world.
Dutch had a that plan until horsea died, he went downhill then. He became greedy and didn't care about nobody but himself. This major downfall was to listen to Micah instead of Arthur and horsea (a newbie in the group instead of the real ones he had since day1).
I'm not letting Dutch off the hook. Nevertheless, his most important priority is to constantly have his ego boosted which Micah knows how to do very well, especially after Hosea is murdered by Milton. When you come down to the hard facts his plan is to rob and kill, it's his number one thrill. In the end Dutch's goal or goals are actually the means through which he always claims will allow him to finally realize his plan.
I don't know if it was just my game file or by design but when they got to the Cave camp i noticed that Dutch was giving one of his speeches but there was no one around, he was just talking to himself.
I consider myself a huge red dead nerd i have seen almost if not everything about this game, and in all the content i saw from people, i think your video is the most interesting and in depth i have seen. This element about the 42k, 12 millions today, is HIGHLY interesting and you absolutely got something there. I never saw someone else mention that argument before. Well done boah, that was really good!
There was no Tahiti at the end of the rainbow. Dutch never actually wanted to go to Tahiti. It was all a lie to keep the gang loyal and faithful in him. Cause if they go to Tahiti then what? Dutch fades into obscurity as some middle aged mango farmer in bumbutt nowhere. Dutch needed to be a superstar outlaw. Guwarma is also all the proof there is no paradise island left at this point.
I don’t think Dutch has EVER had a plan. If so it’s been a really shitty plan. Arthur says he been with the gang for 20 years. So the plan hasn’t worked for 20 years but hey have faith it’ll happen this time
No I don't think there was ever a plan after blackwater failed Dutch did everything but the smart thing. In the case of the black water money they could have sent Sadie, Charles, and Josiah to collect it hell even strauss who could mimick a banker, they should have never done the train robbery it kept the heat on them and they never shook that heat because they never actually stayed low and Bronte made things worst
For anyone who's seen Agents of SHIELD, there's a second meaning attached to Tahiti that pairs nicely with the idea that it's an unattainable dream. Main character Phil Coulson who died in The Avengers was brought back and had false memories of the island of Tahiti implanted in his brain. Whenever he'd hear the word he'd say "it's a magical place" but it was all a fantasy. And that's exactly what this idea was
Its Dutch's way to reassure the gang while waiting for inspiration or idea. Like how he got inspiration from the boat painting during saint Dennis bank robbery
Dutch had no plan to escape. He wanted to give a middle finger to the rising law enforcement and keep things as they were in the cowboy days. He never intended on going to Tahiti, it was all a facade to keep the gang on his side to the end.
He says it often “Make a lot of noise and a lot of money and get the hell out of here” I don’t understand how people miss this plan he says it like 3 times
Imo, he saw himself as a crusader while the rest (minus Micah) wanted to settle down somewhere truly lawless and free. Sooooo his only plan was to actually "Make alot of noise" for as long as he could till he died.
I believe that something happend to Dutch be for the massacre and the head injury in the trolly heist definitely messed him up more. I mean, he said he saw triple of everything
"We can't always fight nature, John. We can't fight change, we can't fight gravity, we can't fight nothin'. My whole life, all I ever did was fight..." - Dutch van der Linde
there is this dialogue once, i dont remember when, but he is saying like "yeah, we're going to get out of here, don't worry", but instead of that he says like "I- we"... like... he is correcting himself mid-sentence maybe the plan was for him to escape this life of crime with all of his money, but then his selfishness take control, the train accident affects his head, micah manipulates this selfish side of him, so basically... the plan was for him to vanish and leave everything behind but his money, and if you could, you go with him like, when john was left behind, dutch didnt even tried to help him, when he was arrested the same thing happened so if it requires a little effort, more than necessary for him i suppose, he'll leave you behind
Since my second play through I’ve wondered what would’ve happened had Dutch listened to Hosea and just laid low in the mountains and let Colm rob that train.
I mean rdr pretty much showed you what his plan was. Used his crew to pull out heists, ditch em, grow old and hide out with the wealth.. thought that was self explanatory
Hello Meteorite, I agree with you 100% ... I've seen many videos on this same exact topic and yours is the most objective and certain about what Dutch was actually interested in most and how this fact became more and more obvious. Cheers. Mike.
I think dutch always did want to get the gang somewhere "free" so they could be happier even if dutch himself could never enjoy retirment Maybe even he'd jeep doing some outlawn' and thumbing his knose at uncle sam using the free land as a hideout
I made plenty of money hunting animals and killing o’driscals. The gang could have lived quite happily outside of Valentine helping folk and not pulling any big scores.
Like where? That's Dutch's big hole in his plan. There was no where "free" to go. They were already as free as they could be on the world they lived in. No place left run.
@@meoff7602 The smart thing to do would be to find a place to set up in and not shit the bed there, A hidden camp or homestead in Canada would be nearly untouchable assuming he does not piss off the brits, or even a corrupt politican in some boring state where he causes no trouble but contributes to reelection funds. A farm or horse ranch somewhere in Alberta would give him a safe base to raid across the entire US, they could take time and plan out heists well in advance then hit 3 or 4 locations in a row before returning home
Why hasn’t someone done a Peter Pan and the lost boys comparison to RD2. It really changes the story when you look at it in the context and explains Dutch to a T if you’re going off the original story Peter Pan story.
I hope Im not the only that bursted out laughing when Dutch said "Arthur , I dont have a plan anymore. I... dont have a plan." xD man bro is so hilarious.
Hes plan was to get as much money as possible with the gang, and let the gang members die over time through their cause of action, this is why he chose to let them die if that’s the case, he left Arthur to die, and John marston, so Dutch wouldn’t have to split the money between the gang, this is also why he shot micha in the end. He then realised that there’s no point in any plans as he has to enjoy life alone, along with that, hes actions from killing and robbing had taken a toll on he’s mental health, and ends up doing what he’s doing because it’s the only thing he knows. This is also why he mentioned “fighting nature” he has adapted himself to hes wrongdoings that it’s he’s own nature, he doesn’t know how to live differently.
I think he had a plan, then as it was getting messed up over and over again, he kind of ditched it. Right around the time he started saying he wanted "noise" is where he let it go i think
I feel at first there was. I think the plans fell apart so many times and being responsible for so many people kinda weighed the man down. I think after his head injury it was over-he was too far gone. But right before Arthur gets TB you can feel and see Dutch acting out of line… you can see early it was falling apart all in his hands. I’m sure he wanted best but the plan came down to was robbing everyone and bailing. He was going to take the cash and split.
What i dont understand is dutch allways mentions a plan in the game ,allways! Arthur and john are with him for 20 years! 2 decades! And they could NOT see that Dutch did not have a plan after all thoes years! Or it was that during thoes 20 years arthur and john had goddamend FAITH in Dutch.
He had a plan. His plan was to be an "Outlaw For Life' and to make a name for himself. Both of these he says in the first chapter which is why I never believed much of what he said about any other plans.
I think exactly what happened was his plan except Hosea dying, he didn’t actually care about most of them in the moment but I think when Arthur died it changed him and made him realize what he became
Dutch was right at the end from his perspective. Micah was loyal to him and the gang. John and Arthor turned on him and he couldnt trust them. John had no loyalty to the gang, only to his family. John likely the snitch and RDR1 shows this clearly. Micah a real one who stood by Dutch to the end
I think at best dutch might've planned on helping some of the gang out of the life onto either a farm or a chunk of land over seas. At least when hosea was alive that is, plus I think hed do it for his own ego, like uncle says ; His own little kingdom. But once hosea dies and dutch peceives some of the gamg as turning on him, he uses the feeling of being closed in on as an excuse to absolutely descend into the darkest version of his dream. Not that i think he was ever a great guy or anything, but theres no way the long time members believed that line for 5, 10, 20 years for arthur and hosea if dutch was never doing anything that at least looked like progress to that goal. Like the savings the gang had, ect. Must have been some kind of plan for it, or it would get spent. Again once hosea was dead, i think dutch was free to start thinking of other plans for it.
I believe he didnt have a plan, but kept thinking 'ill come up with the specifics later..' but then the later it got, the more his brain rotted, my money is on something like syfillis. He reminds me a lot about Al Capone that way
How did even put a crew together? How desperate do you need to be to follow this mastermind? He can't even outplay some incest, drunk hillbillies, and protect a kid.
even sadder than any of this its a combination of windmill chasing, denial, and the classic definition of insanity i'd even argue he has early dementia. never once doubted he had a plan or if he could actually do it. Dutch did not snap, got greedy/desperate/bloodthirsty , nor was he evil or puppeteered (all micah did was give him a handjob). He was never to be trusted in the first place, his utopia was doomed from the beginning; wild west was dead. he can't accept change just thinks the same old scheme will finally pay off goes full circle each time his plan fails. flash forward to RDR he's still doing the same thing
Oh no, he had a plan, unfortunately for the gang it was a retirement plan, that involved buggering off with all the money when he thought he had enough. It didn't involve them other than acquiring the said money for him.
There is a big error in this video. 42000 dollars in 1899 translates to 1.5 million dollars U.S.D. in 2023. Which is a lot of cash. Certainly enough to escape. But not enough to buy land, build a palace to house his cult, higher labor, and live happily ever after. They would have gotten to Australia most likely only to be in the same position they were to begin with. Black water would have been the score they needed but he had to abandon the cash. The money from Saint Dennis would have been enough cash but they lost it in a Hurricane. The money from robbing the federal payroll train would have been enough but I think they had to yet again abandon the money to survive.
remeber both canada and the us where pretty empty back in the day , land was cheap, as it the prices you spend on a single high end pistol in game could probably buy you a decent sized plot of land
An actual plan for outlaws back then would of been to head up into Canada then to where Alaska would be eventually. No one is there and they could live in the wilderness. But nope to my knowledge even irl not one did that back then. But I'm sure it happened and there are good stories to be told
There is no debate he has a plan, he illustrates the plan to you the entire way, even in Chapter 6!! You see first hand him changing the plan, the plan changing, the plan in motion. He has a plan throughout the entire thing, you see it get fucked up, you see him bring you on errands pertaining to it in chapter 6 when he doesnt want to tell you about it but he does, in the last hope that youre still there with him. He had a plan, entirely implied by rockstar, and even half tangebale. Even the final schrodinger destination of the plan (which is really what these theories are about) is expressed by him right up until the ambush in beaver hollow by miltons men, and when he walks away from micha, from arthur, he realises his mistakes, thats where and when it went.
I fully agree. I just replayed the game and i really felt like this whole thing just slipped out of control and dutch snapped. I really think folks underestimate how much Dutch cared about his gang. Despite his narcissistic traits. Plus a leader with narcissistic personality traits would probably be pretty torn up that he kept getting his people killed
@evandierker2272 totally there with you on that. For 20 years this guy taught people morals, kindness, and his own values. Nobody dedicates 20 years to raising 2 boys and a friendship with an equal partner being hosea, plus the others mostly will have been around for *at least* 5 years (bill, Javier, the women, and Susan grimshaw, abigail far earlier) teaching and guiding those people. There's more going on there than "Dutch never cared," surely😅
In short, no. He used alot of outlaws to make him a bunch of money. Dutch pre-prepares speeches for them and constantly strings them along. If anyone vocalizes concerns, he shuts it down or questions their loyalty. Like a cult leader.
Yeah, i was also thinking that they had more than enough money to leave the country. Hell they can hijack a damn boat if they wanted to leave. Dutch was essentially a narcisist.
Recently subscribed big fan of your channel I'd like to see a video of a full psychiatric analysis of Dutch and if it possibly played a role in his downfall I've recently started playing the game and noticed Dutch would go into a subconscious rage and then pull himself back and immediately apologize. I wondered what are your thoughts on this possibility being the case The man genuinely seem to suffer some kind of mental illness but I'm not sure if he was born this way or if it was a by product of stress and anxiety Just my 2 cents and thank you for your hardwork I will recommend your channel to everyone I know who plays the game ❤
Maybe he had a plan up until Black Water failed, his grand plan definitely changed with Micah around. Such a rich story; I’m working on my 4th play through, the missions were so fun that I got my first run through halfway on completion of everything then went for completion of the story itself unintentionally lol. This character will be the ‘mean one’. Dutch may just be a particularly charismatic bullshi**er too.
I think there was a plan. I think there was a bit of the old American Adam in Dutch. I think he was really more than just some con man or crook at some point. And that idealist in him never really died. In many ways he's a very tragic figure. He's a man who was born too late and ran out of time. The frontier closed, the plutocracy triumphed over his ilk.
I wonder, did Dutch or anyone (aside perhaps Sadie and Pearson) have any idea on how to actually farm? Cause that would be needed if they were going to grow Mangos or Bananas in Tahiti.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I had a plan I swear.
WHERES YOUR GODDAMN FAITH?!
Revenge was a luxury we couldn't afford Dutch...
What plan? What goddamn plan, Dutch??
Tahiti? Timbuktu?
Yeah but we didn't have enough faith to see it.
He gave you all he had
For the millionth time... The plan is to make alot of noise... Make alot of money.... And get out of here.....
He just needed some time. And some god damn faith!
@@JonnyRottenn__an he has a god dame plan
Poor Hosea just wanted stick with the first plan of lying low and heading west. I guess the plan just kept evolving.
What plan?! What goddamn plan?! Tahiti? Timbuktu? Trusting Micha with everything when he's done nothing to earn it? Killing hadi mccort? Getting involved in two families who were on to us halfway through? Strangling an old woman? Using the native Americans to run away? Leaving John to hang? Abandoning Abigail & leaving Jack an orphan?
One more big score… ARRTHOR!
I'd argue his plan was never to settle down with the gang or himself. All those monologues and speeches he tells the gang are deceitful and manipulative. He just wanted to crusade against authority. Dutch never cared about the money he only wanted mayhem and blind obedience.
I find this true as well! The way he speaks even at the beginning, they circle around like around Jesus Christ himself, its just sad
Yeah pretty much. Ya really think someone like him would settle down at all?
hell nah
Nice profile pic lol
@@jessicamaccabe4219 thank u👨🏾🍳
I think Dutch's plan was exactly what he was doing. Nothing. He didn't WANT to change, he WANTED to fight the government and he WANTED to stay an outlaw. Arthur said it best "we're living in a world that don't want folks like us no more" and even Uncle "he wants to be an American king, and we are his knights"
There are a lot of hints that Dutch doesn't really care about the gang or that he sees himself as better than them, his clothes and jewelery for a start, his living quarters, he has a nice tent and a bed while everyone else is sleeping in the dirt, Arthur is the only other one that has a bed.
There was one scene that really made me realize that Dutch was only looking out for himself and it's the chapter where Lenny dies, and before Lenny dies, the gang has holed up in that abandoned house, catching their breath, Lenny is sitting in a chair and Dutch, rather than let him have it, shoos him away so HE can sit there, he doesn't dare bring himself to sit on the floor, even in dire situations.
Wasn't that Charles he shooed away or was it Lenny?
@@SimplyT-s4x It was Charles he shooed away, Lenny was already dead
@@abbyalphonse499 Alright thanks for that
@@abbyalphonse499 Was it Charles? It's been a while since I played through the story. Regardless.
I think the first paragraph held true. But, I think at around chapter 2, after surviving the winter in the mountains and reading Evelyn Miller’s books, he started to see himself as a Moses like character. And then from there, feeling the heat, he was on a gradual decline until both Hosea and Lenny died. At which point, all he had to talk sense into him was Micah. Micah, who had been beefing up his ego, cultivating his paranoia and showing him the fun in causing chaos for the sake of chaos is what pushed him over the edge. After Arthur death, he was broken. After he killed Micah, he could finally free himself of his past life and become fully unhinged as a Dutch/Micah hybrid.
I think Dutch was winging it from the ferry heist. He liked the idea of being an outlaw and a Robin Hood kind of character but I think Hosea's death finally broke him. The weird chess thing he was doing after they all got back from Guarma made me immediately start to question his decisions
Agree with this. The gang could have probably lasted longer if they had better planned crimes (reconnaissance before the heists, escape plans, disguises, etc.) and more creative crimes (Arthur mentioned in his journal a long con him and Hosea were working on before the Blackwater ferry heist messed things up). Dutch, I think, liked the big home run plays with a lot of noise and flash. The Saint Denis robbery they just rode into a major city as a big posse with no disguises and members being wanted in multiple states. Then Dutch acts like a shocked mastermind when the Pinkertons immediately show up.
@@TheTrooper506right, that bank jest had zero chances to be a success. They rode there with entire crew, dressed all black and tried to rob a bank days after murdering Bronte... Bruh.
Also m Dutch does the same thing in 1911 in Blackwater lol
@@TheTrooper506yeah Dutch was slipping for a while. I started getting fishy about Dutch and his plans during the Clemons Point/Rhodes chapter. Dutch underestimated the families and got played. He then made all that noise and the Jack rescue and then all that stuff in St. Denis. Too much stuff happened in too short amount of time.
@@TheWilku22murdering Bronte and driving the tram through the city
It is also called the Dutch defense
If the plan is robbing a trolley station in broad daylight based on the word of one person, he just met with no escape plan and reconsissance work. Then, yes, Dutch did have a plan. Really crappy plan, but a plan nonetheless.
he is an idiot mumbler, talk big but no meaning
To quote Arthur:
"There's always a goddamn train!"
Arthur would be really annoyed by Big Smoke about the train too if Arthur was in San Andreas.
@@luishernandezsotoOn a flipside, Big Smoke's plan actually works (albeit with a betrayal)
Funny thing about Tahiti, by that point in history the French had control of it. Had he actually done enough effort in his planning, he probably would have preferred Australia.
Strauss said Australia was better when they were at the abandoned plantation
Why do I get the feeling that was part of Dutch’s plan? Like arrive at Tahiti, pretend to realise “the damn French are in charge” and wage a war against the French government for control of the island
So what if the French had control. The French were not after the Gang. The UK had control of Australia, how is that better
@@Samuel88853 it would go against what Dutch supposedly wanted, which was pure freedom, plain and simple
I wouldn't bet British Australia was any better than French Tahiti... 🙄
I suspect Dutch would settle down if forced, but his ideals, goals and dreams pretty much forced him to fight to the end.
A poetic knight of a dead world order that never was more than a stillborn whisper.
His plan was to go to Tahiti, and all they needed was to do just one more job. But there was always going to be just one more. Dutch loved the outlaw life too much to give it up.
I'd never heard the sum of the money hidden at the final camp (never went for it)... that is staggering, and says so much about Dutch. This story is so heart-wrenching and good.
actually its one of the endings
there is that decision when you're with john
you can go with him or go back to the camp to get the money, but yeah, it's worthless
@@jogepedin3667thats what he means with "never went for it".
But completly understandable, anybody going for the money is retarded
The fact that there's posters of land for sale in every town and the artist friend was able to escape to the island so easily always infuriated me, cuz their problem could've been easily solved, Dutch just liked the chaos.
Exactly and putting people in danger and then wonder why people are questioning him.
Seeing how easily the artist got away to Tahiti and then getting letters from him saying how good it was there when we were still sitting in a malarial swamp really pissed me off. That said it was a lot easier to sneak one guy onto a boat than 20 odd people that were already wanted bybthe Pinkertons is a different matter.
I just remember having like 20K in chapter 3 and having Dutch still complaining about needing money and thinking ffs how much do you need Dutch Ive got 20K here by myself...
@@stevepalpatine2828 I agree and collected so much money only for dutch to say "I have a plan to get us a boat " "One more time and we vanish". Dutch was full of himself.
@jaredmccain7518 Bro before we moves to Shady Belle I had all camp upgrades and 20K in my own cash and about 8K I put in the Camp box. To then find out Dutch was sitting on 40K on top of that like what lol?
Dutch never had any plan other than to keep being an outlaw. There were so many times we could have run. You can easily make 20K stealing and selling high class stage coaches and gold bars.
@@stevepalpatine2828 Shame. All that talk from dutch and he was holding out from everyone. What a hypocrite and we could have left at any time and probably been fine if we didn't need to rob the Braithwraiths . But not dutch. Dutch got issues. Then micha was no help at all and wanted to shoot anyone he felt like. I wish we could have left him jail .
If Dutch really listened to Hosea, not robbing Cornwall's train days after the failed ferry heist and had not murdered Angelo Bronte the dismemberment of the gang would not have occurred so easily, just 4 months after the ferry heist.
Hosea made bad choices too. His plan was to play the two families against each other in Rhodes, whoch was a disaster and a stupid plan. Hosea also was the one pushing for the St Denis Bank robbery. Hosea was no genius
Bill‘s plan really made so much money. Bill was way closer to a real plan than Dutch 💀
Just one heist in Valentine and real information + the weirdly op combination of Bill, Lenny, Arthur and Karen
i really enjoyed that mission.
Right, it was at least practical
It was so good
Dutch is the Walter White of the Red dead franchise
Ehhh, the big difference being that Walt’s plan actually works in the end.*
* I think he wanted to die so that was part of his plan.
At least Walter said, "He liked it". That gave him a nice closure. Such kinda line with Dutch would've been amazing. Like he finally accepting that he just liked authority and his own crusade against powerful people. it was never about some Tahiti oe Australia
@@kedrpraohe said something similar in rdr1, how he can't fight his own nature
@@kedrpraoIt's because Dutch born as an outlaw in the wild west and Walt chooses
Walt chooses being one
Dutch’s plan was to have a plan
Explains his recklessness in rdr1. He essentially had an army of outlaws and manipulated natives who were convinced of doing Dutch's bidding.
I think Dutch is an egomaniac, he saw himself as an enigmatic leader, and much like a cult leader he got joy from having followers and having them follow his teachings. But as it turned out he wasn't the man he preached. In the end he shot Micah, but not because it was the right thing to do only because he had to get out of the situation and he had finished with Micah. He didn't care about Arthur or the others he was only in it for himself.
Pretty sure he shot Micah because he finally realized his mistakes listening to Micah and not his son Arthur dying right in front of him while watching Micah tore the gang apart without consequences. He came for revenge against someone that ruined his empire and someone that screwed him over.
Just like how he came for revenge with Bronte for screwing him up.
Dutch didn't care for Arthur in the moment. Without Hosea on his side and Arthur doing missions behind his back (and Micah instigating on Dutch's ears), he was lead to the decision to turn his back on Arthur and run away. It was only years later when John told them the truth.
@@YTFanaticI don't think that John's words had anything to do with Dutch shooting Micah.
Dutch would have killed Micah on his own, even if John and Sadie wouldn't have showed up. Dutch even hints at this in the dialogue:
John: "What are you doing up here, Dutch?"
Dutch: "Same as you, I suppose..."
Dutch knew that John and Sadie weren't after his head, but after Micah's. So this answer to John's question is a dead giveaway to what he was about to do with Micah.
As much of a flawed person Dutch might be, this seems to be the one time where he was able to figure out and accept the mistake he made by trusting in Micah, without the help of the likes of Hosea and co.
@@EinFritzMitXAnd it only took him 8 years to realize 😭
@@EinFritzMitXi think dutch went to mount hagen with no plan and hadnt even decided if he was gonna kill micah, he was just winging it. if john and sadie hadnt shown up, he might have just not killed micah and ended up teaming up with him again
just my opinion-based theory though
Dutch, in my opinion, never had an actual plan to get out of the outlaw life, because for Dutch it was never about the destination, it was all about the journey.
Dutch wanted an excuse to keep going on living the life he wanted to live, and as his actions show, he it didn't matter who got hurt - like the way he betrayed the Wahpiti Indians, and how he both left John and Arthur to die, and how he was willing to abandon Abigail and leave Jack an orphan.
Dutch was a selfish man, who viewed his people as mere accomplices, and who were easily disposable when they no longer suited his purposes - kinda like how he strangled the old lady on Guarma after she led them part way through the passage and then demanded more money and he had none to give.
Dutch, even though he is admittedly a fictional character, his character is a brilliant representation of: "Believe what people do and not what they say." Hell, even children are known by what they do, as to whether they are good or not.
The bank was Hosea’s plan. Dutch wasn’t sure how to proceed.
How could he if his character in a nutshell is like
"Don't worry guys, i have a pla-"
*gunshots* *characters die*
"umm... don't worry guys! I. Have. a. PLA-
*town shootout* , *some of the gang distrust dutch*
"Guys, you gotta have some goddam fai-"
*Betrays Arthur and John*
"... .... lets keep moving Micah ... ..."
Dutch is a dreamer. He has visions not plans. He rely on is 2nd in command to actually have a plan for his visions.
One thing that really hit it home of how insane Dutch was is that he said “let’s go to New York and make a lot of noise.”
Shows just out of touch he was about everything, they are the most hunted gang in America at that point and he wants to go to one of the busiest city’s in the world.
Dutch had a that plan until horsea died, he went downhill then. He became greedy and didn't care about nobody but himself. This major downfall was to listen to Micah instead of Arthur and horsea (a newbie in the group instead of the real ones he had since day1).
I'm not letting Dutch off the hook. Nevertheless, his most important priority is to constantly have his ego boosted which Micah knows how to do very well, especially after Hosea is murdered by Milton. When you come down to the hard facts his plan is to rob and kill, it's his number one thrill. In the end Dutch's goal or goals are actually the means through which he always claims will allow him to finally realize his plan.
I don't know if it was just my game file or by design but when they got to the Cave camp i noticed that Dutch was giving one of his speeches but there was no one around, he was just talking to himself.
i get that too, on every replay, on the same speech
More likely that he's rehearsing what he's gonna say to them gang. To be a manipulative liar
I consider myself a huge red dead nerd i have seen almost if not everything about this game, and in all the content i saw from people, i think your video is the most interesting and in depth i have seen. This element about the 42k, 12 millions today, is HIGHLY interesting and you absolutely got something there. I never saw someone else mention that argument before. Well done boah, that was really good!
I really dont see a difference between dutch before he bumbs his head and after.
"Mangos, Arthur! Tahiti!"
There was no Tahiti at the end of the rainbow. Dutch never actually wanted to go to Tahiti. It was all a lie to keep the gang loyal and faithful in him. Cause if they go to Tahiti then what? Dutch fades into obscurity as some middle aged mango farmer in bumbutt nowhere. Dutch needed to be a superstar outlaw.
Guwarma is also all the proof there is no paradise island left at this point.
I don’t think Dutch has EVER had a plan. If so it’s been a really shitty plan. Arthur says he been with the gang for 20 years. So the plan hasn’t worked for 20 years but hey have faith it’ll happen this time
Just give me some more time man! Have faith!
No I don't think there was ever a plan after blackwater failed Dutch did everything but the smart thing. In the case of the black water money they could have sent Sadie, Charles, and Josiah to collect it hell even strauss who could mimick a banker, they should have never done the train robbery it kept the heat on them and they never shook that heat because they never actually stayed low and Bronte made things worst
For anyone who's seen Agents of SHIELD, there's a second meaning attached to Tahiti that pairs nicely with the idea that it's an unattainable dream. Main character Phil Coulson who died in The Avengers was brought back and had false memories of the island of Tahiti implanted in his brain. Whenever he'd hear the word he'd say "it's a magical place" but it was all a fantasy. And that's exactly what this idea was
Its Dutch's way to reassure the gang while waiting for inspiration or idea. Like how he got inspiration from the boat painting during saint Dennis bank robbery
Dutch had no plan to escape. He wanted to give a middle finger to the rising law enforcement and keep things as they were in the cowboy days. He never intended on going to Tahiti, it was all a facade to keep the gang on his side to the end.
He says it often
“Make a lot of noise and a lot of money and get the hell out of here” I don’t understand how people miss this plan he says it like 3 times
Imo, he saw himself as a crusader while the rest (minus Micah) wanted to settle down somewhere truly lawless and free. Sooooo his only plan was to actually "Make alot of noise" for as long as he could till he died.
I believe that something happend to Dutch be for the massacre and the head injury in the trolly heist definitely messed him up more. I mean, he said he saw triple of everything
"We can't always fight nature, John. We can't fight change, we can't fight gravity, we can't fight nothin'. My whole life, all I ever did was fight..." - Dutch van der Linde
there is this dialogue once, i dont remember when, but he is saying like "yeah, we're going to get out of here, don't worry", but instead of that he says like "I- we"... like... he is correcting himself mid-sentence
maybe the plan was for him to escape this life of crime with all of his money, but then his selfishness take control, the train accident affects his head, micah manipulates this selfish side of him, so basically... the plan was for him to vanish and leave everything behind but his money, and if you could, you go with him
like, when john was left behind, dutch didnt even tried to help him, when he was arrested the same thing happened
so if it requires a little effort, more than necessary for him i suppose, he'll leave you behind
Still laugh hysterically every time I get to see dutch screaming at Mrs. griswald about needing muney! And his plan. 😂
Since my second play through I’ve wondered what would’ve happened had Dutch listened to Hosea and just laid low in the mountains and let Colm rob that train.
I mean rdr pretty much showed you what his plan was. Used his crew to pull out heists, ditch em, grow old and hide out with the wealth.. thought that was self explanatory
Hello Meteorite, I agree with you 100% ... I've seen many videos on this same exact topic and yours is the most objective and certain about what Dutch was actually interested in most and how this fact became more and more obvious. Cheers. Mike.
Dutch always said,
“We just gotta make a lot of noise”
As the old saying goes,
“When enough noise is made, people will investigate”
I think dutch always did want to get the gang somewhere "free" so they could be happier even if dutch himself could never enjoy retirment
Maybe even he'd jeep doing some outlawn' and thumbing his knose at uncle sam using the free land as a hideout
I think he did have one until the Pinkertons showed up. Because when they did, Dutch got carried away leading to the plan get pushed aside.
I made plenty of money hunting animals and killing o’driscals. The gang could have lived quite happily outside of Valentine helping folk and not pulling any big scores.
Like where? That's Dutch's big hole in his plan. There was no where "free" to go. They were already as free as they could be on the world they lived in. No place left run.
@@meoff7602 The smart thing to do would be to find a place to set up in and not shit the bed there, A hidden camp or homestead in Canada would be nearly untouchable assuming he does not piss off the brits, or even a corrupt politican in some boring state where he causes no trouble but contributes to reelection funds.
A farm or horse ranch somewhere in Alberta would give him a safe base to raid across the entire US, they could take time and plan out heists well in advance then hit 3 or 4 locations in a row before returning home
I always thought Dutch had all that money stashed away so he could run off alone with it all and leave everyone to die.
“It was never about Tahiti, John”
The plan was never. Playing with cheats after my 3rd play through having over 100k with Arthur, we could've done it all with new lives
This video honors the sixth house and the tribe unmourned
If he just got one more score Dutch could've enacted his plan and took the gang to tahiti 😔
Why hasn’t someone done a Peter Pan and the lost boys comparison to RD2. It really changes the story when you look at it in the context and explains Dutch to a T if you’re going off the original story Peter Pan story.
I hope Im not the only that bursted out laughing when Dutch said "Arthur , I dont have a plan anymore. I... dont have a plan." xD
man bro is so hilarious.
Hey this content is very high tier for 4k subs, very nice
I Got Plan John 💀
ComeONNN Duuuutch
You always do Dutch.... You always do
What plan?Tahiti? TIMBUKTU?!
Bill actually had the most successful heist.
Hes plan was to get as much money as possible with the gang, and let the gang members die over time through their cause of action, this is why he chose to let them die if that’s the case, he left Arthur to die, and John marston, so Dutch wouldn’t have to split the money between the gang, this is also why he shot micha in the end.
He then realised that there’s no point in any plans as he has to enjoy life alone, along with that, hes actions from killing and robbing had taken a toll on he’s mental health, and ends up doing what he’s doing because it’s the only thing he knows.
This is also why he mentioned “fighting nature” he has adapted himself to hes wrongdoings that it’s he’s own nature, he doesn’t know how to live differently.
I think he had a plan, then as it was getting messed up over and over again, he kind of ditched it. Right around the time he started saying he wanted "noise" is where he let it go i think
I feel at first there was.
I think the plans fell apart so many times and being responsible for so many people kinda weighed the man down.
I think after his head injury it was over-he was too far gone.
But right before Arthur gets TB you can feel and see Dutch acting out of line… you can see early it was falling apart all in his hands.
I’m sure he wanted best but the plan came down to was robbing everyone and bailing.
He was going to take the cash and split.
I would love to see a story DlC that actually takes place right before and during the black water massacre.
Plot twist, ever thought that, Dutch, was just full of shit?
I used to think Dutch actually wanted to have the gang have a better life but after a while I thought Dutch just wanted to keep playing Cowboys...
*Me as both Arthur Morgan/John Marston:* Oh, enough with your planning, Dutch, you always have a plan. I have a plan... for you to shut the hell up.
Gang should've just taken over Hanging Dog Ranch and started ranching there.
What i dont understand is dutch allways mentions a plan in the game ,allways! Arthur and john are with him for 20 years! 2 decades! And they could NOT see that Dutch did not have a plan after all thoes years! Or it was that during thoes 20 years arthur and john had goddamend FAITH in Dutch.
He had a plan. His plan was to be an "Outlaw For Life' and to make a name for himself. Both of these he says in the first chapter which is why I never believed much of what he said about any other plans.
A perfect cult:
Dutch always saying "I have a plan"
Aurther always saying "Sure" [sounds like; SHOOR"]
Dutch is a fascinating character!
true that! one of my favorites of all time
I think exactly what happened was his plan except Hosea dying, he didn’t actually care about most of them in the moment but I think when Arthur died it changed him and made him realize what he became
i knew dutch was shit when the first thing i read in the camp book was "first thing first, dutch needs a better tent"
UA-cam Recommended
I had a goddamn plan
I don't think Dutch every really had a plan. He loved being an outlaw.
And his only real plan was probably being one until the day he died.
Also if Hosea never turned around and just ran into the bank, he could've live. Milton wouldn't have shot him in the back b/c he's an "honorable" man.
So basically Dutch was a Wild West Goku?
"Krillin, I have a plan."
Dutch was right at the end from his perspective. Micah was loyal to him and the gang. John and Arthor turned on him and he couldnt trust them. John had no loyalty to the gang, only to his family. John likely the snitch and RDR1 shows this clearly. Micah a real one who stood by Dutch to the end
have some goddamn faith bro
I think at best dutch might've planned on helping some of the gang out of the life onto either a farm or a chunk of land over seas. At least when hosea was alive that is, plus I think hed do it for his own ego, like uncle says ; His own little kingdom.
But once hosea dies and dutch peceives some of the gamg as turning on him, he uses the feeling of being closed in on as an excuse to absolutely descend into the darkest version of his dream.
Not that i think he was ever a great guy or anything, but theres no way the long time members believed that line for 5, 10, 20 years for arthur and hosea if dutch was never doing anything that at least looked like progress to that goal. Like the savings the gang had, ect. Must have been some kind of plan for it, or it would get spent. Again once hosea was dead, i think dutch was free to start thinking of other plans for it.
I believe he didnt have a plan, but kept thinking 'ill come up with the specifics later..' but then the later it got, the more his brain rotted, my money is on something like syfillis.
He reminds me a lot about Al Capone that way
How did even put a crew together? How desperate do you need to be to follow this mastermind? He can't even outplay some incest, drunk hillbillies, and protect a kid.
It's psychosis, happens more often than people think
even sadder than any of this its a combination of windmill chasing, denial, and the classic definition of insanity i'd even argue he has early dementia. never once doubted he had a plan or if he could actually do it. Dutch did not snap, got greedy/desperate/bloodthirsty , nor was he evil or puppeteered (all micah did was give him a handjob). He was never to be trusted in the first place, his utopia was doomed from the beginning; wild west was dead. he can't accept change just thinks the same old scheme will finally pay off goes full circle each time his plan fails. flash forward to RDR he's still doing the same thing
He’s just cowboy Julian from tpb
I suspected he was lying when every plan went to shit...
Oh no, he had a plan, unfortunately for the gang it was a retirement plan, that involved buggering off with all the money when he thought he had enough. It didn't involve them other than acquiring the said money for him.
There is a big error in this video. 42000 dollars in 1899 translates to 1.5 million dollars U.S.D. in 2023. Which is a lot of cash. Certainly enough to escape. But not enough to buy land, build a palace to house his cult, higher labor, and live happily ever after. They would have gotten to Australia most likely only to be in the same position they were to begin with. Black water would have been the score they needed but he had to abandon the cash. The money from Saint Dennis would have been enough cash but they lost it in a Hurricane. The money from robbing the federal payroll train would have been enough but I think they had to yet again abandon the money to survive.
50 years ago candy bars cost 5 cents and gas was 30 cents a gallon. I guarantee they had enough money to buy some land
Building that house was only $100
remeber both canada and the us where pretty empty back in the day , land was cheap, as it the prices you spend on a single high end pistol in game could probably buy you a decent sized plot of land
An actual plan for outlaws back then would of been to head up into Canada then to where Alaska would be eventually. No one is there and they could live in the wilderness. But nope to my knowledge even irl not one did that back then. But I'm sure it happened and there are good stories to be told
There is no debate he has a plan, he illustrates the plan to you the entire way, even in Chapter 6!! You see first hand him changing the plan, the plan changing, the plan in motion.
He has a plan throughout the entire thing, you see it get fucked up, you see him bring you on errands pertaining to it in chapter 6 when he doesnt want to tell you about it but he does, in the last hope that youre still there with him. He had a plan, entirely implied by rockstar, and even half tangebale. Even the final schrodinger destination of the plan (which is really what these theories are about) is expressed by him right up until the ambush in beaver hollow by miltons men, and when he walks away from micha, from arthur, he realises his mistakes, thats where and when it went.
I fully agree. I just replayed the game and i really felt like this whole thing just slipped out of control and dutch snapped.
I really think folks underestimate how much Dutch cared about his gang. Despite his narcissistic traits. Plus a leader with narcissistic personality traits would probably be pretty torn up that he kept getting his people killed
@evandierker2272 totally there with you on that. For 20 years this guy taught people morals, kindness, and his own values. Nobody dedicates 20 years to raising 2 boys and a friendship with an equal partner being hosea, plus the others mostly will have been around for *at least* 5 years (bill, Javier, the women, and Susan grimshaw, abigail far earlier) teaching and guiding those people.
There's more going on there than "Dutch never cared," surely😅
In short, no. He used alot of outlaws to make him a bunch of money. Dutch pre-prepares speeches for them and constantly strings them along. If anyone vocalizes concerns, he shuts it down or questions their loyalty. Like a cult leader.
Yeah, i was also thinking that they had more than enough money to leave the country. Hell they can hijack a damn boat if they wanted to leave. Dutch was essentially a narcisist.
Recently subscribed big fan of your channel
I'd like to see a video of a full psychiatric analysis of Dutch and if it possibly played a role in his downfall
I've recently started playing the game and noticed Dutch would go into a subconscious rage and then pull himself back and immediately apologize.
I wondered what are your thoughts on this possibility being the case
The man genuinely seem to suffer some kind of mental illness but I'm not sure if he was born this way or if it was a by product of stress and anxiety
Just my 2 cents and thank you for your hardwork
I will recommend your channel to everyone I know who plays the game ❤
It always nakes me wonder why they didnt just lay low, wait for the pinkertons to drop the lockdown in blackwater, and just get the money then
3:24 imagine being named “Rod Edge” in todays world 😂
Maybe he had a plan up until Black Water failed, his grand plan definitely changed with Micah around. Such a rich story; I’m working on my 4th play through, the missions were so fun that I got my first run through halfway on completion of everything then went for completion of the story itself unintentionally lol. This character will be the ‘mean one’. Dutch may just be a particularly charismatic bullshi**er too.
He had a plan, a dental plan because John needed new braces
He just wanted to cause chaos and be the most wanted man in the states as he always said one last score however he wanted more
Vaas was right about the definition of insanity
Oh, the doubting….
*THE DOUBTING!*
I think there was a plan. I think there was a bit of the old American Adam in Dutch. I think he was really more than just some con man or crook at some point. And that idealist in him never really died. In many ways he's a very tragic figure. He's a man who was born too late and ran out of time. The frontier closed, the plutocracy triumphed over his ilk.
I wonder, did Dutch or anyone (aside perhaps Sadie and Pearson) have any idea on how to actually farm? Cause that would be needed if they were going to grow Mangos or Bananas in Tahiti.
Dutch had a plan for that
i have a plan... its to find a plan