The Tarmacs, being KW based, definitely have some limitations. I ended up getting a good deal on some V3s that I couldn't pass up. While they perform well and respond well to changes in adjustments, I sometimes feel they lack a bit of refinement over some of the small/medium size bumps.
The lower the car the higher Spring rate+Higher Grip compound Grade of Tires it must be match with.Rebound always more than Compression by 1 or 2 (Most coilover last 2 adjustment level of each end(i.e. 1/2/ , 13/14 ,15/16 , 29/30 , 39/40)are not to be use or ONLY when rebound:compression ratio formula -1/2). The stiffer the car base I.E. roll cage , Car frame ,spot weld/reinforcing weld , Subframe bush(solid/harder) , bushing(spherical/poly/rubber) , mounting(solid/poly/rubber) then u must match with softer suspension set up + your X balancing and your left to right balancing(anti-roll bar) and front rear set up Over/understeer required. softer compound tires match with higher spring rate + Faster rebound and harder compression rate.Never lower more then the overall balance limit of the full set up or your car cant turn for a race car. For street and autoX the set up should be suspension and anti roll to more oversteer bias and braking front and rear bias to compensate your oversteering or understeering.
Justin, do you think the increased power of the new 2.4 motor is needed to be competitive in your class of autocross vs the 2.0 motor you are running? Or, is the 2.0 enough to keep you competive and the increased HP unneeded?
The new 86's with the 2.4 are in a different "ST" class than the old cars. I can't remember if they are in the same "street/stock" class or not, if so then yes the new motor is a big advantage as it is much faster.
@@TheBTRGarage Thank you. Yes, thinking street class (DS). Both the 2.0 and 2.4 are in the same DS class.......at least for now. Thank you. I've got a deposit on a 2.4 that is allocated and should arrive in +/-6-8 weeks. Debating if I should just pick up a cheaper used 2.0, save a few bucks, and a couple months of waiting. Since there is a big difference, it looks like I'll continue to wait. Thanks a bunch.
Ahh that's right. I should know that, I run mine in DS locally and there are a few gen1's in class with me. I am almost always faster in my stock GR86 over the gen1 cars, even prepped ones. If I had a good tire on the car it wouldn't even be close. So definitely go with the new car if you really want to be competitive, otherwise the old cars are still certainly a lot of fun.
@@TheBTRGarage thinking of getting them for me new 86. Autocross only use. You think the ones without the external reservoir are sufficient for that use?
Awesome! Yea the non-remotes are fine for autox, even time attack (I use MCS non-remotes on my full time race car). There are certainly benefits to external reservoirs, but I would save the $ unless you need maximum performance. Brian at Karcepts can help you get setup with MCS, he has a lot of experience with them on the 86 platform.
@@TheBTRGarage thank you, big purchase so wanted to get an outside opinion from someone who auto crosses. And, yes, Karcepts is who I'm talking to. I'm going to get one of his .804 front bars also. Thank you
Installed the ACE A350 header last weekend (video coming next week hopefully). Just finished up tuning. Hopefully I will get to the dyno next week, but have to see how it goes.
Currently front camber is a -3.2. Congrats on the FRS, good choice. Looks we have similar tastes, I have had 2 Miata's over the years too (some videos on the channel way back too).
BreakTraction Nope. I've heard of people getting funny clunking noises from some setups, but these are quiet, as were the T2's. I would get clunking noises from sway-bar end-links loosening up.
@z06van22 That’s not what bumpsteer is. Bumpsteer is a very slight change in toe angle that occurs when cycling through a large range of suspension motion. It’s caused by the kinematics of the suspension linkages. Small road imperfections do not cause any amount of bumpsteer worth mentioning. Small bumps often cause a steering wheel to move slightly, but that is not what bumpsteer is.
It may be worthwhile to talk about your suspension preferences and why; a lot of beginners may not be able to distinguish between tuned suspension, and a rock hard bouncy mess. I've consistently tried to enlighten my local drivers that stiff and low is not better (bouncy is bad!) for handling, but this advice is lost amidst the confusion between handling suspension vs lowering suspension. Simply put, it may behoove a lot of enthusiasts who watch you to hear the advice from someone they trust. It's always disappointing to see a stock e36 with a square 265/35r18 setup bouncing around and spinning out because they just don't know better.
That's a good idea! I have talked a little bit about that, ie: why I'm not super low, the side effects, etc. I think it was the MCS installation video.
The lower the car the higher Spring rate+Higher Grip compound Grade of Tires it must be match with.Rebound always more than Compression by 1 or 2 (Most coilover last 2 adjustment level of each end(i.e. 1/2/ , 13/14 ,15/16 , 29/30 , 39/40)are not to be use or ONLY when rebound:compression ratio formula -1/2). The stiffer the car base I.E. roll cage , Car frame ,spot weld/reinforcing weld , Subframe bush(solid/harder) , bushing(spherical/poly/rubber) , mounting(solid/poly/rubber) then u must match with softer suspension set up + your X balancing and your left to right balancing(anti-roll bar) and front rear set up Over/understeer required. softer compound tires match with higher spring rate + Faster rebound and harder compression rate.Never lower more then the overall balance limit of the full set up or your car cant turn for a race car. For street and autoX the set up should be suspension and anti roll to more oversteer bias and braking front and rear bias to compensate your oversteering or understeering.
Yes, 255/40r17 on my 2017 BRZ. The front will rub on the inside just a little at full lock, but it's fine. I ran 245/40r17 on my 2013 FRS. I like the taller tire on the 2017 car because of the shorter gearing. I also always have a good bit of camber in the front (-3.5* to -4.2* depending on the setup).
Justin, have you found that the Racer-X front endlinks rub against the shock body under some circumstances? I just installed a set of MCS SA's with Racer-X endlinks, and no matter how I adjust the endlinks, they will rub if the outside wheel in a turn gets unloaded. That would only happen backing out of a driveway or in a parking lot, most likely, but it's annoying. I tried all the various sets of front endlinks I have (OEM, Hotchkis, Whiteline) and they all do this on the front shock body. The MCS SAs, at least, have too long of a shock body relative to their droop travel. They droop so little that the endlinks don't clear when you turn the wheel with the suspension unloaded.
Hmm, interesting. I have not noticed any problems yet. Would shorter end-links help that situation? Racerx just released a new, shorter end-link set, that is made for certain MCS setups if I remember right.
Shortening pulls the bottom of the endlink closer to the shock body, so unfortunately it makes the problem worse. I think the only thing that would prevent the binding would be if MCS made their shock body shorter, or built more droop travel into their design. They seem to favor way more compression travel, so as to allow aggressive lowering I suppose. I got these on Black Friday, and they're the only ones I see on Racer-X's site for the 86: racerxfabrication.com/frs-brz/suspension/front-end-links I love the MCS's otherwise -- the ride is so smooth, even with 500 lb/in spring rates, and the body control is incredible. I guess I just have to keep an eye on the endlinks for possible damage. The binding only happens sometimes at low speeds, in situations where you're turning and unloading the outside wheel like backing out of a garage onto a sloped driveway. If you want to see if it happens on your set, jack up the front and turn your steering wheel from lock to lock.
The real question. Are they worth the money? Want to get a set for the Miata but like most sts cars the cost of the struts is just as much as the car lol
Riley Heaton Haha, I know the feeling, everything on my BMW is more expensive than the whole car. Whether or not they are worth is hard to quantify. If every last tenth is something you are shooting for, then I would say yes. Something like my Tarmac 2's will get you real close for a lot less money though. Just something you have to think about, but you probably know as well as I do that suspension is #1 importance.
Compression is pretty soft front and rear. Front rebound is almost max, rear rebound is in the middle. Front sway bar is on stiff as is rear sway bar. That changes for the surface/tire.
Came for the BRZ, Stay for the quality content.
... Also i might be taking notes for when i mod my BRZ ...
Isopher Thanks man glad you are enjoying the content! Hopefully it is helpful.
The Tarmacs, being KW based, definitely have some limitations. I ended up getting a good deal on some V3s that I couldn't pass up. While they perform well and respond well to changes in adjustments, I sometimes feel they lack a bit of refinement over some of the small/medium size bumps.
The lower the car the higher Spring rate+Higher Grip compound Grade of Tires it must be match with.Rebound always more than Compression by 1 or 2 (Most coilover last 2 adjustment level of each end(i.e. 1/2/ , 13/14 ,15/16 , 29/30 , 39/40)are not to be use or ONLY when rebound:compression ratio formula -1/2). The stiffer the car base I.E. roll cage , Car frame ,spot weld/reinforcing weld , Subframe bush(solid/harder) , bushing(spherical/poly/rubber) , mounting(solid/poly/rubber) then u must match with softer suspension set up + your X balancing and your left to right balancing(anti-roll bar) and front rear set up Over/understeer required. softer compound tires match with higher spring rate + Faster rebound and harder compression rate.Never lower more then the overall balance limit of the full set up or your car cant turn for a race car. For street and autoX the set up should be suspension and anti roll to more oversteer bias and braking front and rear bias to compensate your oversteering or understeering.
Justin, do you think the increased power of the new 2.4 motor is needed to be competitive in your class of autocross vs the 2.0 motor you are running? Or, is the 2.0 enough to keep you competive and the increased HP unneeded?
The new 86's with the 2.4 are in a different "ST" class than the old cars. I can't remember if they are in the same "street/stock" class or not, if so then yes the new motor is a big advantage as it is much faster.
@@TheBTRGarage Thank you. Yes, thinking street class (DS). Both the 2.0 and 2.4 are in the same DS class.......at least for now. Thank you. I've got a deposit on a 2.4 that is allocated and should arrive in +/-6-8 weeks. Debating if I should just pick up a cheaper used 2.0, save a few bucks, and a couple months of waiting. Since there is a big difference, it looks like I'll continue to wait. Thanks a bunch.
Ahh that's right. I should know that, I run mine in DS locally and there are a few gen1's in class with me. I am almost always faster in my stock GR86 over the gen1 cars, even prepped ones. If I had a good tire on the car it wouldn't even be close. So definitely go with the new car if you really want to be competitive, otherwise the old cars are still certainly a lot of fun.
Justin, will you be putting the MCS on your new GR?
Yes, eventually. Kind of doing the slow roll mod approach with the GR86.
@@TheBTRGarage thinking of getting them for me new 86. Autocross only use. You think the ones without the external reservoir are sufficient for that use?
Awesome! Yea the non-remotes are fine for autox, even time attack (I use MCS non-remotes on my full time race car). There are certainly benefits to external reservoirs, but I would save the $ unless you need maximum performance. Brian at Karcepts can help you get setup with MCS, he has a lot of experience with them on the 86 platform.
@@TheBTRGarage thank you, big purchase so wanted to get an outside opinion from someone who auto crosses. And, yes, Karcepts is who I'm talking to. I'm going to get one of his .804 front bars also. Thank you
I’d be interested to know how MCS compares to the Sachs dampers that come with the performance package.
Not even in the same realm. MCS is a true motorsport racing package with adjustability. The Sachs are ok, but it is still primarily a street damper.
Saw the snow was gone, how is the ace header coming along :)?
Installed the ACE A350 header last weekend (video coming next week hopefully). Just finished up tuning. Hopefully I will get to the dyno next week, but have to see how it goes.
How much front camber do you run? I'm picking up an FRS soon that I plan to mod it for autox and track just like I did with my Miata.
Currently front camber is a -3.2. Congrats on the FRS, good choice. Looks we have similar tastes, I have had 2 Miata's over the years too (some videos on the channel way back too).
Why reservoir vs not?
Is it much louder when you go over bumps ?
BreakTraction Nope. I've heard of people getting funny clunking noises from some setups, but these are quiet, as were the T2's. I would get clunking noises from sway-bar end-links loosening up.
do you have exterior pictures from the autocross at max lateral G (looking at the front ideally), and what are the spring rates ? thank you.
No good photos with this setup yet. Spring rates are 5kg front and 9kg rear.
Nice review, car looks really planted.
Marco T Thanks!
why is your steering wheel oscillating in the first part of the video?
Bumpy Colorado roads.
@@TheBTRGarage Dang you must have some big elk crossing those roads!
It called bump steer
@z06van22 That’s not what bumpsteer is. Bumpsteer is a very slight change in toe angle that occurs when cycling through a large range of suspension motion. It’s caused by the kinematics of the suspension linkages.
Small road imperfections do not cause any amount of bumpsteer worth mentioning. Small bumps often cause a steering wheel to move slightly, but that is not what bumpsteer is.
It may be worthwhile to talk about your suspension preferences and why; a lot of beginners may not be able to distinguish between tuned suspension, and a rock hard bouncy mess. I've consistently tried to enlighten my local drivers that stiff and low is not better (bouncy is bad!) for handling, but this advice is lost amidst the confusion between handling suspension vs lowering suspension. Simply put, it may behoove a lot of enthusiasts who watch you to hear the advice from someone they trust. It's always disappointing to see a stock e36 with a square 265/35r18 setup bouncing around and spinning out because they just don't know better.
That's a good idea! I have talked a little bit about that, ie: why I'm not super low, the side effects, etc. I think it was the MCS installation video.
Justin's Pit Lane I guess I should have watched that one! Haha. It's great to see your posts on ft86club too, I love that this community is so alive!
The lower the car the higher Spring rate+Higher Grip compound Grade of Tires it must be match with.Rebound always more than Compression by 1 or 2 (Most coilover last 2 adjustment level of each end(i.e. 1/2/ , 13/14 ,15/16 , 29/30 , 39/40)are not to be use or ONLY when rebound:compression ratio formula -1/2). The stiffer the car base I.E. roll cage , Car frame ,spot weld/reinforcing weld , Subframe bush(solid/harder) , bushing(spherical/poly/rubber) , mounting(solid/poly/rubber) then u must match with softer suspension set up + your X balancing and your left to right balancing(anti-roll bar) and front rear set up Over/understeer required. softer compound tires match with higher spring rate + Faster rebound and harder compression rate.Never lower more then the overall balance limit of the full set up or your car cant turn for a race car. For street and autoX the set up should be suspension and anti roll to more oversteer bias and braking front and rear bias to compensate your oversteering or understeering.
What kind of wheels (size and offset) and tires are you using?
I run WedsSport TC105N, 17x9 with a 35mm offset. For autocross tires, it is either BFG Rival S 1.5 or Bridgestone RE71R.
BTR Justin what size tire? 255? Do you have any rubbing?
Yes, 255/40r17 on my 2017 BRZ. The front will rub on the inside just a little at full lock, but it's fine. I ran 245/40r17 on my 2013 FRS. I like the taller tire on the 2017 car because of the shorter gearing. I also always have a good bit of camber in the front (-3.5* to -4.2* depending on the setup).
Justin, have you found that the Racer-X front endlinks rub against the shock body under some circumstances? I just installed a set of MCS SA's with Racer-X endlinks, and no matter how I adjust the endlinks, they will rub if the outside wheel in a turn gets unloaded. That would only happen backing out of a driveway or in a parking lot, most likely, but it's annoying.
I tried all the various sets of front endlinks I have (OEM, Hotchkis, Whiteline) and they all do this on the front shock body. The MCS SAs, at least, have too long of a shock body relative to their droop travel. They droop so little that the endlinks don't clear when you turn the wheel with the suspension unloaded.
Hmm, interesting. I have not noticed any problems yet. Would shorter end-links help that situation? Racerx just released a new, shorter end-link set, that is made for certain MCS setups if I remember right.
Shortening pulls the bottom of the endlink closer to the shock body, so unfortunately it makes the problem worse. I think the only thing that would prevent the binding would be if MCS made their shock body shorter, or built more droop travel into their design. They seem to favor way more compression travel, so as to allow aggressive lowering I suppose.
I got these on Black Friday, and they're the only ones I see on Racer-X's site for the 86:
racerxfabrication.com/frs-brz/suspension/front-end-links
I love the MCS's otherwise -- the ride is so smooth, even with 500 lb/in spring rates, and the body control is incredible. I guess I just have to keep an eye on the endlinks for possible damage. The binding only happens sometimes at low speeds, in situations where you're turning and unloading the outside wheel like backing out of a garage onto a sloped driveway.
If you want to see if it happens on your set, jack up the front and turn your steering wheel from lock to lock.
The real question. Are they worth the money? Want to get a set for the Miata but like most sts cars the cost of the struts is just as much as the car lol
Riley Heaton Haha, I know the feeling, everything on my BMW is more expensive than the whole car.
Whether or not they are worth is hard to quantify. If every last tenth is something you are shooting for, then I would say yes. Something like my Tarmac 2's will get you real close for a lot less money though. Just something you have to think about, but you probably know as well as I do that suspension is #1 importance.
Were they a lot of money
8kg 8kg KW V3/RCE T2 to 7kg 7kg now MCS 5kg 9kg. May i know your COMP/REB setting? uncle Justin:) Thanks.
Compression is pretty soft front and rear. Front rebound is almost max, rear rebound is in the middle. Front sway bar is on stiff as is rear sway bar. That changes for the surface/tire.
Noted.All the best to your youtube views and a better career soon in future:)Im a very detail viewer:)
There's a lot of dead space you could have edited out, tbh.
Not credibility with that wheel cover!
😆
wth is up with the awkward pauses. ruins the video