This teaching was very clarifying and speaks to God’s consistency, integrity, Justice and equality. The distinction that His instructions and intentions were not genocide or predominantly to gain “Ground” for His people but to restore what had been taken and defiled and to protect are crucial in understanding how deeply and consistently God loves and protects those who love Him. We His sheep who are sometimes blind and dumb often do not see His true intention. I am convicted it is imperative that we know as completely as possible who our God really is according to His WORD in order to trust and stand faithful to Him when deception and evil abound in the culture surrounding us. We are there. Thank you so much for the intensive time, study and effort you put forth to portray this so clearly and concisely. May God richly bless and protect you, your family, and your ministry until His imminent return. Clinging to the faith of Jesus and giving Him praise for who you have correctly portrayed Him to be. I am learning to deeply love and trust a God I have always wanted to be faithful to because of your teaching about His character.
Thank you pastor Asscherick for this message!!!!!!!! You’ve always been a thinker and you preach intelligent, spirit-filled, powerful sermons! Unlike most pastors around me. Thank you! This sermon was an answer to prayer!
I hope that Pastor Asscherick doesn't cut his sermons for any reason. Please understand that there are a great many of us who are thriving in our relationship with God partly because of the sermons made available to us by speakers like Pastor Asscherick. Please encourage those ministering with the blessings of the Holy Spirit. I know it can be difficult sometimes for those sitting in the pews, especially for someone like me who has neuropathic problems stemming from diabetes and obesity. I hope to remember that it's better for me to get up and leave for a bit rather than to discourage God's message given to us through His chosen vehicles. I love the difference made through the Kingscliff Church! I've listened to so many testimonies and sermons from you here on UA-cam. I look forward to the continued blessings through you. Love you guys! God bless!
Absolutely brilliant critical analysis. Yes, that's Jesus. Yes, that's the God I've come to know. I verify: "I KNOW that God loves people. No favoritism." It is so wonderful to hear what I know laid out in the Bible. Thank you.
Praise God for this message through you in moving me forward and prayerfully all who will hear. Thanks pastor Asscherick and please keep preaching it at the Lord's leading.
Wow, great sermon. Thank you Pastor Asscherick, I always had problems with this chapters about God's commands to kill and destroyed whole cities including, old, women, and children, but I answered myself by thinking: This were evil people and if they were left alive, they would continue to be the torn in the life of God's children. Beside He is Hod, the creator of everything, of us and who can judge Him or say to Him, why did you do that? He can do whatever He knows is good whenever He wants, and we have to accept it. We know He always does what is best for us. But one thing that is certainly hard is to explain it to unbelievers who would argue that how can God be a God of love after this and other subjects in the Bible. God continue to bless you with wisdom Pastor Asscherick to help us understand this things. Patty
Great video, with lots of very helpful information. God NEVER commanded a “genocide” of the Canaanites. God actually said to “drive them out“, which means to make them leave, not “KILL“ them (for example Exodus 23.28-33, Numbers 33.52). In fact there are at least forty Bible verses that talk about “driving them out“. The false claim that God supposedly commanded “genocide” is really based on just one verse - Deuteronomy 20.16, where Moses says “do not leave alive anything that breathes“. But they have twisted this verse into “do not leave alive any Canaanite in the whole land of Canaan”. But the Bible does not say that. But 20.16 is only talking about a specific battle between armies (20.1: “When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours“). And it’s when the Canaanites have refused to negotiate peace (20.12) and have deliberately attacked the Israelites (20.12: “they engage you in battle“), therefore forcing the Israelites to carry out a siege of that particular city (20.12). And also note that a “city“ really meant a small town by today’s standards. Ancient remains such as Jericho are only a few hundred metres wide. Also, they probably contained mainly soldiers ; only a few civilians would be there, such as Rahab the prostitute.
+Andrew Kataba how about Lot, a drunk who offered his daughters to criminals to be subjected to rape and death, was regarded as more righteous than all of the children in Sodom and Gomorrah?
I think this is a wonderful picture of God and I love this explanation, but as with my struggle with theodicy shows for years, if in the end, really what we're saying is that God will get so angry with some people that he will eventually destroy them, then these people truly had no true freedom to do whatever they wanted. God essentially said to them, "you either love me or I'll kill you." That is the part I cannot fathom God ever saying to a person he created.
+mapliopl God is not willing to destroy/kill a person. He wants sin to be destroyed. If a person clings to sin, that person will ultimately destroy himself in a way that God's retributive judgment towards that person who clings to sin is an act of mercy and love itself.
+John Ross Diel If my son decides to keep drinking poison and doesnt let me give him the antidote is one thing but if I shoot him because he drank something I told him not to drink, then I killed him. how do you define the sin problem? I think that can help solve the problem but it doesnt solve the problem if OT violence for God is not waiting for the consequences of sin to take their course but was actively stopping it with the massive killings. Thats what is hard for me to reconcile. if God kills you for being bad He's a totally different person than the God who lets you go with a heavy heart knowing that sin will ultimately destroy you.
If your son drank poison and you knew he was going to die a slow and painful death because he wouldn't accept the antidote would you not killed him faster out of mercy?
+KipKemei Sambu That's a good point. Maybe, so then let's translate this to what Dave quoted at the end. I do not think that picture of wrath reflects a God putting someone out of their misery... but a God who is justified in killing wicked people.
That's when metaphors break. For it's certain that sin causes people to be extremely violent and inhumane, but it doesn't do that for others, so in that sense, God would be killing all when the effects of poison (sin) on some are milder than others.
He is right. "this only a scratching of the surface of the problematic texts". conveniently left out of the discussion of coarse, I mean, sermon.. I understand why he would never preach on this again, an indicator that this has not met satisfactorily to his conscience, yet he pushes on.. So be it.. The main problem is that trying to explain all this through the scope and perspective of an independent Super, all Powerful God, it can never end well.. It be better to just understand that man is his creator of everything that transpires and things just go right or good , depending solely on how we act.. I wish I had the time to address and dissect his 5 main points of reference, but maybe another day.. I respect his passion and dedication to what he believes. he is a human brother, yet at same time, an opponent, a competitor of philosophy etc.. We had words a many few times lol. Until I was banned, and ran...
Have you looked at even two of the most disgusting texts he left out? "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.--Numbers 15:32-36" " This just in two chapter of numbers lol 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Please know what religion you follow before speaking up in defenses that only will deepen the hole you in..
So your saying if the situation was reversed and the time of ancient ISis amenRA ELohim was now, that you would , if demanded of your religion, start sacrifing your animals and start lliving the strict letter of the law and start stoning workers on the sabbath and rebellious kids etc, and be cool with going out conquesting land and forcing the teenage virgins to be your wives after you just killed their whole family, even though you know she will never truly love you and fear you for life?? Sorry, but you fooling yourself. The bible as a whole does not harmonize, nor as a whole by todays moral standards, which jesus was close to a good standard.. Sad you justify all this for the sake of keeping your tradition.. I call your bluff. I think you would see the errors in these kinds of punishments just because a rebellion may or may not happen.. The religious spell is alive and well.. so fascinating yet frustrating to see..
But yea. Trust the biblical god you never met but only told about is smart lol.. the limits of crimes then can have no bounds. But then again if it was reversed like I said before, you would hopefully awaken out of the spell. This why the elites have religious correctiveness and watered down interpretations so people don't leave the faith etc.. No need to water down with Islam. they still mentally and spiritually barbaric lol
Even if God came down himself to tell you its all a control scam, you would just say its the devil or demon.. See the problem here??Getting the religious to wake up is next to impossible that God cant even help lol..
Very helpful. Please know however, that 'unclean' did not mean untouchable, unlovable, sinful or dirty. We don't have a good word for clean or unclean in English as we don't have a culture which sacrifices in worship. But a rabbi taught me that being clean or unclean is a natural part of life for us all. Mary and baby Jesus were ritually unclean at His birth because of the blood and amniotic fluid of child of childbirth, but visitors still came to adore and, no doubt, cuddle the baby. Their relatives would've hugged Mary and so would Joseph have been affectionate to his wife and baby. But they could not go into the temple until her time of purification was up because nothing representing the fall could go into the temple (blood, sickness, deformity, etc) because the temple represented heaven and unfallen Eden. If you had a cold or were menstruating, you could still go to a synagogue and into people's homes, but anything you touched had a time of purification and anyone who touched you had to be purified (baptised) before they could enter the temple. Being unclean was not bad, just unfit for heaven. Jesus was unclean in touching the sick and the dead and the bleeding. To prepare a body for burial was a special thing, not disgusting. But you had to wash afterwards and be baptised after a time of staying away from the temple. The cohen and the Levite who avoided the beaten man on the road to Jericho did not want to miss their opportunity to serve in the temple as they were rostered on and might only get one chance in a lifetime in those days when their was a large population. The bleeding woman who touched Yeshua's robe was not an outcast, but she'd not been able to enter the temple for 12 years ... very sad at festivals, nor have sex with her husband (a holy activity). But she certainly could be hugged and go to the synagogue.
Great presentation!! Truly, this is one of the best presentations on the topic I have seen. But I'm still left with a difficult problem concerning this topic. Summed up in one word: CHILDREN. Tell me, whoever is reading this, if God gave you the command to kill a child, just one, would you do it? could you do it? Would you take sword in hand and carry out the will of the Lord? Or when Achan was found with the goods of Jericho in his tent, even if his children were somehow culpable in this, could you take up stones to stone these children to death? Have you ever tried stoning something to death? It would probably take some time. If this was written in any other book or attributed to a God that you did not believe in then you would despise it. But because God APPARENTLY commanded this we have to somehow justify a wicked act. This is what troubles me the most. I can accept that the adults were guilty, deserving of such divine punishment. Even Achan, I don't know whether stoning was the most suitable punishment, but he understood the consequences, should he be discovered. BUT that their children "infants and sucklings" should share in this fate is just STUPID........and EVIL. How unfortunate to have come into the world at such an inopportune moment to such an undeserving family only to meet with the sword or stones of Gods followers. We are oft to blame in this, 'Tis too much proved, that with devotion’s visage And pious action we do sugar o'er The devil himself.
+Claudia Thompson I am a pastor within the Seventh Day Adventist church and have read the "Conflict of the Ages" series. She is unhelpful on this issue, more or less saying what you said that it was a mercy, just, right and true. Claiming the passing of time("thousands of years ago") and a shift in covenants("in NT times") only serves to obscure the issue!! I understand you try to redeem the actions by looking beyond the means to the end! But you're giving sweeping solutions which fail to grapple with the reality of the situation! These are a dodge and a failure to recognise that had YOU been there, and I mean 21st century YOU(with your modern day values of human life), then God would have asked you to do what you cannot do, I hope to God that you would never do it! For the means are horrific. You need to face the fact that had you been there God would have commanded you to kill the children of Canaan "infants and sucklings" and stone the children of Achan! Tell me, if you were there and God gave you the command to kill a child, just one, would you do it? could you do it? Would you take sword in hand and carry out the will of the Lord? Or when Achan was found with the goods of Jericho in his tent, even if his children were somehow culpable in this, could you take up stones to stone these children to death? Have you ever tried stoning something to death? It would probably take some time. If these actions were written in any other book or attributed to a God that we did not believe in then we justly and naturally would despise it. But because God APPARENTLY commanded this we have to somehow justify a wicked act. I can accept that the adults were guilty, deserving of such divine punishment. Even Achan, I don't know whether stoning was the most suitable punishment, but he understood the consequences, should he be discovered. BUT that their children "infants and sucklings" should share in this fate is just STUPID........and EVIL. How unfortunate to have come into the world at such an inopportune moment to such an undeserving family only to meet with the sword or stones of Gods followers. How do we as bible believing Seventh Day Adventist Christians solve this immense riddle in the nature of God as revealed in these incidents. How can we ever say that killing these children was right. There is a difference between sending a flood or plagues and sending men with swords and violence to take the lives of these children. The first I could go along with as a mercy killing but the second is not a much better alternative to being sacrificed to another God. These incidences are immensely troubling, I almost dismiss it as the product of a corrupt and base people rather than an actual revelation of God, from God. But this is more a comforting thought than an actual solution.
***** I don't have any problems when it comes to believing whether God IS or not. Also when all is said and done I DO trust that God is good. What I don't trust is this particular OT rendition of his nature. I doubt its credibility with no other reason than its offensive nature.
***** I offered no interpretation, you did. All I am asking you to do is place yourself on the receiving end of commands offensive to ones moral sensibilities. If you genuinely THINK about it, that particular part of the bible is a problem, which is why David intimates at the beginning of the presentation that he feels his presentation is not satisfactory.
Sorry David but there’s a lot you missed out (intentionally or not only you know) just so to support the pre notion that God is good. E.g Matthew 15:21-28. All Jesus heals were of Israel descent up to this point. So it is not correct what you claim that Jesus (at that time) was non prejudice, that he waltz to all kind of people( society wise maybe yes but he only minister to the Jews) again its kind a deceptive to say Jesus touches all kind of people because he did not, even he will tell you that he came only for the jew at that time.
About the property of land point: The point that David is making is that they lived there several hundred years ago, they have their past generations buried there and therefore are entitled to the land that God had given them. Its true that God says to Abraham that he has given this land to them. But what David is trying to say is that the Canaanites also knew of this earlier entitlement also. Rahab: The statement of Rahab could be interpreted as knowing that God had given this land to them a long time ago. Or it can be interpreted as she understands God has given this land to them NOW. - Which one is it? - Incidentally, just because she knows a thing does not mean all of Jericho knows it or that all of Canaan knows it. Gibeon: The next statement from the Gibeonites does not support David's interpretation of Rahab's statement. There it is clear that they understood God as giving their land to the Israelites now, in their present time. I don't think you can claim property rights for a land you have not lived in for several hundred years. Just try to imagine that scenario without God in the picture, there isn't a culture in the world that would tolerate such a claim. There would be war. Once again Copan and Flanagan are grasping at straws. I'm not an atheist, I'm a Christian who struggles with this issue as well, but I can't accept weak arguments to console my faith.
Sin is separation from God. without God there is no life. so if you choose sin, you choose to be separated from God. you choose death by choosing sin. God always gives you what you want. you want to be sin? that means you want death. so He gives you death. God doesn`t force you to be with Him. Gd is SOURCE. unplug something from the source of power and it dies.
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Thank you so much, hallelujah, without justice there is no love and no need for Jesus to have died
Thank you for sharing these insights. It's been a blessing for me.
This teaching was very clarifying and speaks to God’s consistency, integrity, Justice and equality. The distinction that His instructions and intentions were not genocide or predominantly to gain “Ground” for His people but to restore what had been taken and defiled and to protect are crucial in understanding how deeply and consistently God loves and protects those who love Him. We His sheep who are sometimes blind and dumb often do not see His true intention. I am convicted it is imperative that we know as completely as possible who our God really is according to His WORD in order to trust and stand faithful to Him when deception and evil abound in the culture surrounding us. We are there. Thank you so much for the intensive time, study and effort you put forth to portray this so clearly and concisely. May God richly bless and protect you, your family, and your ministry until His imminent return. Clinging to the faith of Jesus and giving Him praise for who you have correctly portrayed Him to be. I am learning to deeply love and trust a God I have always wanted to be faithful to because of your teaching about His character.
Thank you pastor Asscherick for this message!!!!!!!! You’ve always been a thinker and you preach intelligent, spirit-filled, powerful sermons! Unlike most pastors around me. Thank you! This sermon was an answer to prayer!
Thankyou
This was so well done! To God be the glory!
I hope that Pastor Asscherick doesn't cut his sermons for any reason. Please understand that there are a great many of us who are thriving in our relationship with God partly because of the sermons made available to us by speakers like Pastor Asscherick. Please encourage those ministering with the blessings of the Holy Spirit. I know it can be difficult sometimes for those sitting in the pews, especially for someone like me who has neuropathic problems stemming from diabetes and obesity. I hope to remember that it's better for me to get up and leave for a bit rather than to discourage God's message given to us through His chosen vehicles. I love the difference made through the Kingscliff Church! I've listened to so many testimonies and sermons from you here on UA-cam. I look forward to the continued blessings through you. Love you guys! God bless!
Amen. Chosen vessels ?
Absolutely brilliant critical analysis. Yes, that's Jesus. Yes, that's the God I've come to know. I verify: "I KNOW that God loves people. No favoritism." It is so wonderful to hear what I know laid out in the Bible. Thank you.
Praise God for this message through you in moving me forward and prayerfully all who will hear. Thanks pastor Asscherick and please keep preaching it at the Lord's leading.
Wow, great sermon. Thank you Pastor Asscherick, I always had problems with this chapters about God's commands to kill and destroyed whole cities including, old, women, and children, but I answered myself by thinking: This were evil people and if they were left alive, they would continue to be the torn in the life of God's children. Beside He is Hod, the creator of everything, of us and who can judge Him or say to Him, why did you do that? He can do whatever He knows is good whenever He wants, and we have to accept it. We know He always does what is best for us. But one thing that is certainly hard is to explain it to unbelievers who would argue that how can God be a God of love after this and other subjects in the Bible. God continue to bless you with wisdom Pastor Asscherick to help us understand this things. Patty
Thank you!!!
well presented!
Great video, with lots of very helpful information.
God NEVER commanded a “genocide” of the Canaanites. God actually said to “drive them out“, which means to make them leave, not “KILL“ them (for example Exodus 23.28-33, Numbers 33.52). In fact there are at least forty Bible verses that talk about “driving them out“.
The false claim that God supposedly commanded “genocide” is really based on just one verse - Deuteronomy 20.16, where Moses says “do not leave alive anything that breathes“. But they have twisted this verse into “do not leave alive any Canaanite in the whole land of Canaan”. But the Bible does not say that.
But 20.16 is only talking about a specific battle between armies (20.1: “When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours“). And it’s when the Canaanites have refused to negotiate peace (20.12) and have deliberately attacked the Israelites (20.12: “they engage you in battle“), therefore forcing the Israelites to carry out a siege of that particular city (20.12).
And also note that a “city“ really meant a small town by today’s standards. Ancient remains such as Jericho are only a few hundred metres wide. Also, they probably contained mainly soldiers ; only a few civilians would be there, such as Rahab the prostitute.
Conclusion..powerful..amen
Another inspired piece!
+Andrew Kataba how about Lot, a drunk who offered his daughters to criminals to be subjected to rape and death, was regarded as more righteous than all of the children in Sodom and Gomorrah?
@@borninthewrongera00 Says much about the inhabitants' righteousness if Lot was the best of all...
23:30
Amen
I think this is a wonderful picture of God and I love this explanation, but as with my struggle with theodicy shows for years, if in the end, really what we're saying is that God will get so angry with some people that he will eventually destroy them, then these people truly had no true freedom to do whatever they wanted. God essentially said to them, "you either love me or I'll kill you."
That is the part I cannot fathom God ever saying to a person he created.
+mapliopl
God is not willing to destroy/kill a person. He wants sin to be destroyed. If a person clings to sin, that person will ultimately destroy himself in a way that God's retributive judgment towards that person who clings to sin is an act of mercy and love itself.
+John Ross Diel If my son decides to keep drinking poison and doesnt let me give him the antidote is one thing but if I shoot him because he drank something I told him not to drink, then I killed him.
how do you define the sin problem? I think that can help solve the problem but it doesnt solve the problem if OT violence for God is not waiting for the consequences of sin to take their course but was actively stopping it with the massive killings.
Thats what is hard for me to reconcile. if God kills you for being bad He's a totally different person than the God who lets you go with a heavy heart knowing that sin will ultimately destroy you.
If your son drank poison and you knew he was going to die a slow and painful death because he wouldn't accept the antidote would you not killed him faster out of mercy?
+KipKemei Sambu That's a good point. Maybe, so then let's translate this to what Dave quoted at the end. I do not think that picture of wrath reflects a God putting someone out of their misery... but a God who is justified in killing wicked people.
That's when metaphors break. For it's certain that sin causes people to be extremely violent and inhumane, but it doesn't do that for others, so in that sense, God would be killing all when the effects of poison (sin) on some are milder than others.
He is right. "this only a scratching of the surface of the problematic texts". conveniently left out of the discussion of coarse, I mean, sermon.. I understand why he would never preach on this again, an indicator that this has not met satisfactorily to his conscience, yet he pushes on.. So be it.. The main problem is that trying to explain all this through the scope and perspective of an independent Super, all Powerful God, it can never end well.. It be better to just understand that man is his creator of everything that transpires and things just go right or good , depending solely on how we act.. I wish I had the time to address and dissect his 5 main points of reference, but maybe another day.. I respect his passion and dedication to what he believes. he is a human brother, yet at same time, an opponent, a competitor of philosophy etc.. We had words a many few times lol. Until I was banned, and ran...
Have you looked at even two of the most disgusting texts he left out?
"And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.--Numbers 15:32-36"
"
This just in two chapter of numbers lol
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Please know what religion you follow before speaking up in defenses that only will deepen the hole you in..
So your saying if the situation was reversed and the time of ancient ISis amenRA ELohim was now, that you would , if demanded of your religion, start sacrifing your animals and start lliving the strict letter of the law and start stoning workers on the sabbath and rebellious kids etc, and be cool with going out conquesting land and forcing the teenage virgins to be your wives after you just killed their whole family, even though you know she will never truly love you and fear you for life?? Sorry, but you fooling yourself. The bible as a whole does not harmonize, nor as a whole by todays moral standards, which jesus was close to a good standard.. Sad you justify all this for the sake of keeping your tradition.. I call your bluff. I think you would see the errors in these kinds of punishments just because a rebellion may or may not happen.. The religious spell is alive and well.. so fascinating yet frustrating to see..
But yea. Trust the biblical god you never met but only told about is smart lol.. the limits of crimes then can have no bounds. But then again if it was reversed like I said before, you would hopefully awaken out of the spell. This why the elites have religious correctiveness and watered down interpretations so people don't leave the faith etc.. No need to water down with Islam. they still mentally and spiritually barbaric lol
Even if God came down himself to tell you its all a control scam, you would just say its the devil or demon.. See the problem here??Getting the religious to wake up is next to impossible that God cant even help lol..
Very helpful. Please know however, that 'unclean' did not mean untouchable, unlovable, sinful or dirty. We don't have a good word for clean or unclean in English as we don't have a culture which sacrifices in worship. But a rabbi taught me that being clean or unclean is a natural part of life for us all. Mary and baby Jesus were ritually unclean at His birth because of the blood and amniotic fluid of child of childbirth, but visitors still came to adore and, no doubt, cuddle the baby. Their relatives would've hugged Mary and so would Joseph have been affectionate to his wife and baby. But they could not go into the temple until her time of purification was up because nothing representing the fall could go into the temple (blood, sickness, deformity, etc) because the temple represented heaven and unfallen Eden. If you had a cold or were menstruating, you could still go to a synagogue and into people's homes, but anything you touched had a time of purification and anyone who touched you had to be purified (baptised) before they could enter the temple. Being unclean was not bad, just unfit for heaven. Jesus was unclean in touching the sick and the dead and the bleeding. To prepare a body for burial was a special thing, not disgusting. But you had to wash afterwards and be baptised after a time of staying away from the temple. The cohen and the Levite who avoided the beaten man on the road to Jericho did not want to miss their opportunity to serve in the temple as they were rostered on and might only get one chance in a lifetime in those days when their was a large population. The bleeding woman who touched Yeshua's robe was not an outcast, but she'd not been able to enter the temple for 12 years ... very sad at festivals, nor have sex with her husband (a holy activity). But she certainly could be hugged and go to the synagogue.
Great presentation!! Truly, this is one of the best presentations on the topic I have seen. But I'm still left with a difficult problem concerning this topic. Summed up in one word: CHILDREN. Tell me, whoever is reading this, if God gave you the command to kill a child, just one, would you do it? could you do it? Would you take sword in hand and carry out the will of the Lord?
Or when Achan was found with the goods of Jericho in his tent, even if his children were somehow culpable in this, could you take up stones to stone these children to death? Have you ever tried stoning something to death? It would probably take some time. If this was written in any other book or attributed to a God that you did not believe in then you would despise it. But because God APPARENTLY commanded this we have to somehow justify a wicked act.
This is what troubles me the most. I can accept that the adults were guilty, deserving of such divine punishment. Even Achan, I don't know whether stoning was the most suitable punishment, but he understood the consequences, should he be discovered. BUT that their children "infants and sucklings" should share in this fate is just STUPID........and EVIL. How unfortunate to have come into the world at such an inopportune moment to such an undeserving family only to meet with the sword or stones of Gods followers.
We are oft to blame in this,
'Tis too much proved, that with devotion’s visage
And pious action we do sugar o'er
The devil himself.
***** You would kill these children then?
+Claudia Thompson I am a pastor within the Seventh Day Adventist church and have read the "Conflict of the Ages" series. She is unhelpful on this issue, more or less saying what you said that it was a mercy, just, right and true.
Claiming the passing of time("thousands of years ago") and a shift in covenants("in NT times") only serves to obscure the issue!! I understand you try to redeem the actions by looking beyond the means to the end! But you're giving sweeping solutions which fail to grapple with the reality of the situation! These are a dodge and a failure to recognise that had YOU been there, and I mean 21st century YOU(with your modern day values of human life), then God would have asked you to do what you cannot do, I hope to God that you would never do it! For the means are horrific.
You need to face the fact that had you been there God would have commanded you to kill the children of Canaan "infants and sucklings" and stone the children of Achan!
Tell me, if you were there and God gave you the command to kill a child, just one, would you do it? could you do it? Would you take sword in hand and carry out the will of the Lord?
Or when Achan was found with the goods of Jericho in his tent, even if his children were somehow culpable in this, could you take up stones to stone these children to death? Have you ever tried stoning something to death? It would probably take some time.
If these actions were written in any other book or attributed to a God that we did not believe in then we justly and naturally would despise it. But because God APPARENTLY commanded this we have to somehow justify a wicked act.
I can accept that the adults were guilty, deserving of such divine punishment. Even Achan, I don't know whether stoning was the most suitable punishment, but he understood the consequences, should he be discovered. BUT that their children "infants and sucklings" should share in this fate is just STUPID........and EVIL. How unfortunate to have come into the world at such an inopportune moment to such an undeserving family only to meet with the sword or stones of Gods followers.
How do we as bible believing Seventh Day Adventist Christians solve this immense riddle in the nature of God as revealed in these incidents. How can we ever say that killing these children was right. There is a difference between sending a flood or plagues and sending men with swords and violence to take the lives of these children. The first I could go along with as a mercy killing but the second is not a much better alternative to being sacrificed to another God.
These incidences are immensely troubling, I almost dismiss it as the product of a corrupt and base people rather than an actual revelation of God, from God. But this is more a comforting thought than an actual solution.
+Claudia Thompson If the means by which we attain good are evil then it is not good. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" - Abraham
***** I don't have any problems when it comes to believing whether God IS or not. Also when all is said and done I DO trust that God is good. What I don't trust is this particular OT rendition of his nature. I doubt its credibility with no other reason than its offensive nature.
***** I offered no interpretation, you did. All I am asking you to do is place yourself on the receiving end of commands offensive to ones moral sensibilities. If you genuinely THINK about it, that particular part of the bible is a problem, which is why David intimates at the beginning of the presentation that he feels his presentation is not satisfactory.
Sorry David but there’s a lot you missed out (intentionally or not only you know) just so to support the pre notion that God is good. E.g Matthew 15:21-28. All Jesus heals were of Israel descent up to this point. So it is not correct what you claim that Jesus (at that time) was non prejudice, that he waltz to all kind of people( society wise maybe yes but he only minister to the Jews) again its kind a deceptive to say Jesus touches all kind of people because he did not, even he will tell you that he came only for the jew at that time.
About the property of land point: The point that David is making is that they lived there several hundred years ago, they have their past generations buried there and therefore are entitled to the land that God had given them.
Its true that God says to Abraham that he has given this land to them. But what David is trying to say is that the Canaanites also knew of this earlier entitlement also.
Rahab: The statement of Rahab could be interpreted as knowing that God had given this land to them a long time ago. Or it can be interpreted as she understands God has given this land to them NOW. - Which one is it? - Incidentally, just because she knows a thing does not mean all of Jericho knows it or that all of Canaan knows it.
Gibeon: The next statement from the Gibeonites does not support David's interpretation of Rahab's statement. There it is clear that they understood God as giving their land to the Israelites now, in their present time.
I don't think you can claim property rights for a land you have not lived in for several hundred years. Just try to imagine that scenario without God in the picture, there isn't a culture in the world that would tolerate such a claim. There would be war.
Once again Copan and Flanagan are grasping at straws. I'm not an atheist, I'm a Christian who struggles with this issue as well, but I can't accept weak arguments to console my faith.
Sin is separation from God. without God there is no life.
so if you choose sin, you choose to be separated from God. you choose death by choosing sin. God always gives you what you want. you want to be sin? that means you want death. so He gives you death. God doesn`t force you to be with Him. Gd is SOURCE. unplug something from the source of power and it dies.